In this episode, we're chatting about:
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If you enjoyed this weeks' episode, please:
In this episode, we're chatting about:
Follow @aizome_textiles on Insta
Purchase Aizome sheets here. get 10% off with code WENDY10
If you enjoyed this weeks' episode, please:
Chemicals and toxins being found in clothing has been making headlines recently, and synthetic, petroleum-derived fabrics are being called out for containing microplastics, toxic dyes, pfas, rubber chemicals, endocrine disruptors and more. As always, I'm your host, wendy, an environmental toxins lawyer turned clean living coach. Today, on the Detox Dilemma, I have Miguel, the founder of the non-toxic textile company Izomi, and his incredible team here to talk about the future of what truly non-toxic textiles looks like. They are really pushing the industry like no other company I have seen. They aren't just committed to regenerative, sustainable cotton fibers in all of their products, but they're doing what very few companies are doing. They're refusing to use any petroleum-based, toxic synthetic dyes. They have embraced the ancient Japanese tradition of plant-made indigo dyeing. These dyes aren't just completely plant-made and non-toxic, but they're known for their skin healing properties. Truly, this company is incredible, and I'm so excited to have the team here with me today.
Speaker 1:I'm going to drop you into our conversation as we explore what embracing truly toxin-free clothing really means and what it can do for your health. Let's dig in. Well, the last time we talked, you guys filled my cup to the brim until it was literally just overflowing, and so I've been waiting for all that dopamine to get back and record with you. But I also want to get the Izomi message out, because I've had a lot of followers reach out to me regularly hey, you know, on your toxin free shopping guide I don't see any clothing, I don't see any textiles, I don't see sheets Like what do you recommend? And ever since our last conversation I have been deep diving on the industry and reaching out to companies which they really don't appreciate my questions. But I knew you could answer all of them and I knew we could have this deep dive conversation. But what all of that tells me is people are starting to care. It's becoming a thing.
Speaker 1:People reach out to me like is there PFAS in my clothing? Did you know that my polyester is synthetic? And did you know the clothing's made out of petroleum? And just a year ago these were not conversations that were being had and I'm in the industry and people did not want to hear this message and I wasn't, frankly. I mean I was kind of aware. I talk a lot about flame retardants, I talk a lot about fabric softener binding to your, you know, fibers. But even I didn't understand. Well, what is the clothing? What are those fibers actually? How are they made, what is in them, what color? These are all things I was not even asking myself a year ago. I was just buying my organic clothing with no flame retardants, thinking I was buying the best there was. And you guys have really opened my eyes to a whole new world that, once you step in, eyes have really opened my eyes to a whole new world that once you step in.
Speaker 3:You can't unsee it.
Speaker 1:You just can't. Yeah, we're not allowed at parties anymore In the club. It's okay, I'm the weird friend that talks about toxic chemicals and everything Is that water filtered.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's so exciting to see the shift, though, and there's some big things, it seems, coming as well. That's increasing the conversation. There was a major book released last year. There's a docu series coming in the fall about the toxicity of textiles. Yeah, I saw that.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about how we all got here. We are all passionate about this topic. We're all passionate about toxins and clothing and health and longevity and people, and, for me, finding companies that have an ethos and a philosophy that is surrounded around a passion for people, those are the companies I want to talk to and those are the companies I want to know what are you doing and why are you doing it. And so having all of the iZomi crew here is so exciting for me I do want to just go around, and we've got some folks here that I want to do introductions. So, michael, I'm going to start with you. You founded Izomi. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? I know you have a business background. You worked in medical devices and then you had some personal experiences that brought you, you know full circle and brought you into the textile industry. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 4:yeah sure, well, thanks for having us. We're all super excited. I think there is. I mean, you said right, you said it right, like I have. I've.
Speaker 4:Actually, my first business experience was in medical devices, like very conventional medical company that does navigation tools for brain tumors, mostly and particularly focused on late stage treatments, and that kind of you know was something I've really resonated with me because I would like to do something that has an impact on people and I felt, you know it's a great company and so I was working very closely with the founder. It was a great company. I was working very closely with the founder, it was a great experience. But there's something in me going a little bit where I'm thinking like, wow, we spend a lot of money on treating diseases and wouldn't it be great if we just had less diseases? And I mean anybody can look this up we have way more diseases than we have had in the past, you know. I mean recently somebody talked with me about fertility rates. I think one in three people, three women, needs to have help with getting pregnant right now.
Speaker 1:And rising and rising quickly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I mean those you know, cancers and all kinds of things. So I mean there is something going on that's not good Like, and I don't know what it is, but I felt like that's kind of the energy that brought me into this. And I'm at this point now where I think, you know, if we are building this amazing, glorious future for the world with AI and all these amazing tools, we really have to think about this place that we live. Like we can't just poison it just for, you know, companies to make extra money. We can't just like infuse everything with plastic. We can't release all these untested chemicals and then find out 50 years later that they made out whatever childhood cancers, whatever, like. We can't operate like this, and this is kind of the thing that I feel wider, why I'm doing this is that I want to bring awareness and to that particular field, which I think is so important, because it's the very thing that touches our body all the time and I think it is very important.
Speaker 4:But I had a very personal sort of personal thing that brought me into this field was my mother, who, you know, super, amazing, wonderful, best mother anybody could have. She died very early with a tumor and tumor and, you know, relapse came back. But during her sort of the very extensive chemotherapy treatment, which you know was also a late stage treatment, she just developed these black spots on her skin and this, you know, was just adding discomfort. And oncologist told us oh, sometimes that's the color in textiles, so you try switching it to undyed textiles. And I thought, like this guy, next he's going to recommend crystals or you know whatever.
Speaker 4:Essential oils all of them, yeah, whatever. And then we tried this and it had an immediate effect. And the first time ever in my life, I was like what is color made of Like? What is color made of like? What is color? I don't like what is color.
Speaker 4:And textile? And I mean the simple answer it's all you know, basically plastic, it's all petroleum. And I was like, wow, that's so weird, like this, all these organic cotton t-shirts then just dyed with petroleum and so it's organic. And that's kind of where I felt like something's wrong here, like I need to research this more. And I needed years to years to feel more confident talking about this, because I was like I think I'm overlooking something and that's kind of what brought me into this, that I feel like it's not. How is that acceptable? That we all have things around our bodies all the time that on a maybe low level, you know, maybe strong level stress us all the time and then bring all these other environmental problems with us. How has that become accepted? And I think it's not accepted, it's just ignored.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's ignored. A really good example I was sitting at work two days ago and I've been working on that PFAS regulation for drinking water and, for those who are listening, dark Waters is a really good movie to go watch if you don't know what PFAS is, but I think most people understand it's a forever chemical. It's an endocrine disruptor. It causes a whole host of issues. You cannot get rid of it. Some studies show that you have to give blood often and that's the only way to reduce the amount that's in your body.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting because now the EPA is saying, okay, we're going to regulate PFAS in drinking water six of them out of the like 14,000 that exist six of them but it's been 70 years and so we released this chemical for 70 years into the environment. We're just now and everyone was like yay. And I was sitting at work looking at my computer and the feeling I had was sad. I was having a really hard time being excited about it, because I was like it shouldn't be this hard, it shouldn't take 70 years, it shouldn't take millions of people being so sick and having, I think, some of the billions of dollars in healthcare costs that are attributed to exposure to PFAS in our drinking water, and families, people who can't get pregnant, people who are having severe health issues, and so it's ignored, and I think you're right. It is ignored because it's not like we didn't know. We had all the science Dark Waters was how long ago. I mean, we knew everyone just ignored it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah and the what it leads to and I think that's something I'm very aware of and you know everybody in our team is very aware of is you can easily just get overwhelmed and become very negative and say, oh, this is all screwed, nothing's ever going to change. But I think the opposite is, we have to keep talking about this and we have to make people aware of this, because it's the only way these things are changing. And this stuff takes a long time and with the PFAS right now I have a friend who works in an environmental agency and he said the people come into his office, oh, pfas is illegal. And then they just open a drawer and go oh, that's sad. We already have a cousin chemical here and we can use that for the next 20 years.
Speaker 4:One molecule is somewhere else. It's not called a PFAS, looks like a PFAS, smells like a PFAS, looks like a PFAS, smells like a PFAS, behaves like a PFAS, now called a PFAS. That's what we're going to use now and that kind of gives you the feeling of like, oh, nothing will ever change. But I think it will have to get at the fundamental of. You know we focus very much on textiles, but it's wider than this. We have to get on the fundamentals of the things that we surround ourselves with and we can't just externalize environmental problems and health problems and just you know, can't do this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, Megan. How about you? How did you get into this industry and become so passionate about it?
Speaker 3:I actually started as a customer that they couldn't get rid of. I love that.
Speaker 1:I don't think I knew that. I love that yeah.
Speaker 3:I did so. I have Lyme and struggle to feel energized throughout my day. I was actually watching a YouTuber at one point who mentioned that she realized she was allergic to formaldehyde and then realized that formaldehyde was in her clothing and then she promoted isomate. It turns out she actually did this without Izome, even knowing about it, and then I saw this and then I was like, well, now I have to get those bed sheets, because maybe that's why I'm not sleeping well, and I'm actually looking at them right now. That was over two years ago and I still use them every single night because it turns out I do sleep better when I use Izome. I travel with my pillowcases that person now do. But yeah, no, I started as a customer and then had such a lovely exchange with the customer service and then learned that the customer service was also Misa, the co-founder, because when I came onto the company, there were two of them. It's a pretty small, family run company and I just I got to know them and I became so moved by the way that they actually have so much integrity in what they're trying to do, so I very brazenly sent them my CV and yeah, now, two years later, they can't get rid of me.
Speaker 3:My background, though I never expected to be in textile, I still struggle to call it fashion because I was raised actually and I say that intentionally because I do think that there is a tendency to dismiss fashion as something that is superficial, unimportant and not impactful, when in fact fashion or textile is a multi-trillion dollar industry that employs hundreds of millions of people, often exploitatively, and creates tremendous environmental harm.
Speaker 3:My background is in human development, human rights work.
Speaker 3:I was working in India for some time with a non-profit and then also with some for-profit startup that was working to try and help with human trafficking, and I saw, where I was working that some of that was due to the destructive nature of textile Not all of it, certainly, but the fact that textile was causing such environmental ruin and also health consequences for people that caused them to leave the cities where textile was the main employer and try to come to other cities looking for better employment, and then that sometimes led to people being put into very compromised situations.
Speaker 3:Again, not saying that's the only culprit, but it was something that I did see firsthand, and for me it's very meaningful to be working with a company that has tried to expand the conversation from just being about sustainability as something that is somehow abstracted from us to our personal health. You know, this is actually one of the more intimate things that we interact with on a daily basis and by it being something we have more of a personal commitment and experience with it also brings our consciousness more into this whole chain where, like, if it's better for me, it's better for the worker and it's better for the environment, and it maybe shouldn't be that the conversation is from the reverse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think I saw some numbers and I'm sure you guys know better than I do. I think the latest numbers I saw was that the textile industry is the third largest polluter in the world. You go from growing a crop most of them grown if we're talking about cotton, pesticide laden right. If we're talking about plastics, we're talking about petroleum and then you have to harvest that and then most of the cotton then gets bleached and then dyed with dyes that are made from more petroleum, and then it's sprayed to keep it, usually with flame retardants or other chemicals, and then it's packaged in plastic and then it is transported and then consumers purchase it, they bring it home, they wash it.
Speaker 1:All of those chemicals then go into the wastewater and we have created the just massive pollution. And that's not even accounting for how poorly made these textiles are and this fast fashion where they just get thrown in landfills. And so it. Really, when you start looking at the quote, unquote, sustainability, there's so many pieces to that and at the end of the day it ends with the clothing that's in my closet, that I put on my body every day, and what is it doing to my health? And there's nothing more personal than that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Sorry, I actually want to say that's why you hired megan. You heard, you heard. That's what she wrote us. She wrote email and it was like this woman is amazing and now she's saying we have dire I would want to add two like really interesting data points to what you just said.
Speaker 4:That for me it symbolized why this industry just it has to change. It's so bad. In the last 25 years the world population grew by 20 25, but the consumption of textiles grew by 200. And right now in invest in europe, 65 of all made fashion items will never be worn once. So they go right in left and we can only recycle about maybe 1% that's recyclable. The rest is landfill, oceans, incineration. It's a huge problem and it's also growing exponentially. And I strongly believe what Megan said so wonderfully, much better than me and without the German accent is we should just focus on our health, like, just really what is good for me? Because what truly is good for you truly trickles down to being good for the planet.
Speaker 1:Merriment. Yeah so, karen, you and I are kindred, we are lawyers and lobbyists and we are passionate defenders of the things that we love and we do not like taking no or that's impossible for an answer. So I love that about you All, true? Give me a little bit of your background. What brought you to iZomi? What were you doing before?
Speaker 2:Well, I started as an environmental attorney in the 90s, so I had both a JD and then master's in environmental law. But I had two decades in that world and environmental law is set up to deal with big, big problems. It doesn't really start from the inside out or outside in, as Megan described. It doesn't start with personal health. It started with clean water, clean rivers, clean air. So a lot of the work that I did was in responding to decontamination, sterilization, cleanup, response costs for 20 years. I came into ISMA because I'd known Megan for what? 11 years, but also through a personal relationship because in my forties I suffered two accidents that left me with having my health become the priority. It moved up in my professional life as a priority to go in conjunction with and pretty serious accident five surgeries within five years. At the same time I'm working. At the same time I'm raising a family. So for me, separation of my personal health, my professional life, my work in environmental law, my work in law in general couldn't be separated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and if you don't have your health, there's nothing else. There's literally nothing else that is more important than that, because that's everything. It's the way you wake up, it's your energy, it's how you spend your day, how you have the energy to spend time with your kids, it's the way that you feel, it's everything. And so if you don't have your health, then who cares what car you're driving or what you're doing at work or what other things are going on in your life if you're not well? And I love that you know.
Speaker 1:Megan, you said that this is like a family run. You guys are a very small family run company, family run. You guys are a very small family run company, and yet you guys are breaking boundaries and paving the way. My hope for large corporations to take a look at what you guys are doing and start to do better. And I love that. I love that you guys are paving the way to change not just the way you guys are making clothing, but the way everyone makes clothing. So, karen, we'll talk about the regulatory environment a little bit at the end, but, michael, I want to circle back to you. I think I would love to break down for people who are listening. What is our clothing actually made out of? Like literally, what is it made out of?
Speaker 4:So basically, there are two main components it's a fiber and it's a color. There are, technically, also a lot of other chemicals you know in there to like make it wrinkle-free, stain resistant, whatever. But like those are it's. And that's a whole different story because a lot of those things like PFAS and so on are actually highly various. But it's a very basic. You need to have a fiber and most of the time you'll add a color. And and not to get ahead of myself, but that's also where this whole mystery starts the label on your clothes will only ever mention the fiber, no mention of the color that can be a significant percentage of the whole weight, no mention of any other ingredients that all can have a significant effect on your health, water and so on. They're all not mentioned. But so it's made from these two things, and right now, 50% of fashion items are made from polyester, which is plastic, which is petroleum, which is oil, so it's just plastic. So the majority of the things that we wear are plastic bags.
Speaker 1:Basically it's a nice visual yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it's you know. If you allow me a short segue, I'll get back to this. But I think one of the larger problems in the fashion industry is really plastic. There was an industry paper in the 60s or 50s where the plastic producer said the future of plastics is in a trash can. Let's make everything one-time use and we'll have the permission to print money if every disposable product becomes plastic. So it was a very deliberate move from the plastic industry to make disposable products plastic and it took 50 years until people go like does this straw really need to last 50 000 years or can we just do something else? I think right now maybe people become more aware of disposable.
Speaker 4:So plastic is kind of moving into textiles right now and heavily replacing everything that's natural with plastic, and that's a shift that happened in the last 15, 20 years. That's not that old. 20, 25 years ago still, cotton and natural fiber was majority how our clothes are made. So this is really something that happened in the last decades Cotton changed to polyester, natural changed to synthetic, and healthy changed to toxic. So just go back to the question what it's made of. So it's made of a fiber which most time right now is a synthetic fiber and it's made of a color which, almost all of the time, is petroleum based. Color is just a different form of plastic, so most of the time, your clothes will be made of plastic fiber dyed with a plastic color. That's most of the fashion items and that's also how they have become so cheap so I had a light bulb moment.
Speaker 1:I don't know when it was. I was soon after you. You guys and I had a conversation. One of the big no's when I'm teaching about cosmetics and skincare is synthetic dyes. Right, I teach people like, if it has a color, if it has a number, if it says lake, if it like, I go through and I'm like, okay, you don't want to put something petroleum derived on your face.
Speaker 1:And people understand that to a certain extent. They're like oh no, I would not want to put plastic or petroleum. I go into the contaminants that come with petroleum, like heavy metals and all of that. I think people can wrap their head around it. But I'm sitting here wearing this 100% organic cotton. It's packed Full disclosure. That's the company I bought it from. I have no idea what it's dyed with. I did ask them but I didn't get a response. I have no idea. Maybe you guys know, I don't know, but I'm like, literally this entire sweatshirt could potentially be synthetic dye. So I won't put it on my face, but I'm wearing it in my clothing. And it was a light bulb moment for me of, well, that's stupid. I do think that that's a light bulb moment that people need to have and need to understand, because it's not part of our regular conversation.
Speaker 3:And I think and I don't want to go so far as to say intentionally so, but I think that the conversation has been directed in a certain way so that we don't ask some of these questions way so that we don't ask some of these questions. I also hadn't thought about color as ingredients.
Speaker 1:It's just not something that's come into that conversation yet, but it's very exciting to see that it's starting to. It was even funny to me that I'm like well, we learned growing up, like when our parents teach us how to do laundry at some point, or, like me, I go off to college. I have to figure it out that when you put clothing that's dark or new you just buy it in the washing machine the water turns colors. It's right in front of your face and to your point. It's just that moment of connecting the dots.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think you said, wendy, I've had the same feeling, especially in the last 10, 12 years to say, well, this is stupid, this does not make me feel good, I have nothing to choose from. You open your closet and you don't know what to reach for. But it's not like there's a lot of choices that you can know are a healthy alternative to what you feel is making you uncomfortable or what you feel is affecting your skin or your health For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, michael, let's go back to the fiber. Most of it's synthetic. What about cotton? What about the clothing it's really popular now Got certified 100% organic. You've got packed, you've got made the label. You've got fashion brands popping up all over the place. I just got another advertisement. I get them all the time on Instagram, so you know that I've been like Googling when Instagram starts giving me all of these more environmentally friendly clothing options. There's a company called Undyed that's out there. That's all about dye-free clothing. So what about cotton? Because in my mind I think PFAS contamination I'm fully aware of how all of our cotton is bleached. So what about clothing made from just good old fashioned cotton?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, yeah, you said a lot of good points as well. I like speaking with people you know, sort of on the other side there's amazing engineers and all these, like you know, technical textile companies and do amazing stuff. I mean the whole chemistry, it's all fascinating and smart people and so on, and one of the I always like, so I've asked him so what is the best argument that you have against plant dice? What is the best argument and I think the best argument is the same that actually applies to cotton is well, it's a crop. It has to grow in a field. Somebody needs to farm it, it's dependent on weather, there's water and like. These are good arguments, and this, I think, is the best argument for plant dice and against plant dice and then against cotton both really.
Speaker 4:I do think, though, there is one issue is at how much do we value our clothes, and you mentioned before things about health and health concern, and it's one of the best things I can tell people is, yes, it's almost impossible to buy non-synthetic clothes, but the affluence of things that wash out, that your body absorbs, that halves every time you wash the clothes. So the older they are, the safer they are for you. So best thing is you buy something that you keep for a long time, and then when we talk about cotton or plant dyes, the same thing applies. If this is meant as a disposable product, oh God, don't buy cotton, right? This is not a disposable product A tote bag you need to use it a lot of time before it's worth it rather than something a plastic alternative. So these are like valuable products that need to grow on a field. However, there is one thing that people often say when they're trying to kind of discourage cotton for like other alternatives, saying how water intensive it is and blah, blah. It is. Actually it grows in dry areas. 56 percent of the world's cotton doesn't need to have any additional. It's rain fed, doesn't need to have any other water on there.
Speaker 4:And cotton there are no a lot of certifications right now gots, I think, is the most popular one. It's a good first step. I'm always just want to be people to be aware of, like we haven't saved the planet yet. It's the first step, but there's still a lot of things that can be approved on. But right now there's a movement on regenerative cotton coming from all places, from india, where you know people are most affected things Actually a lot of things coming from China, from India, like great environmental moves into the right direction, because those people are affected by these things much more than we are. And regenerative cotton it's a much higher level. It's something where we're just looking at this next step and I think we can do more and more.
Speaker 4:But I think cotton is, from a personal health perspective, the best choice for pretty much everything. You know, it's warm, it's moisture-wicking, it helps your texture. Its main purpose is really to help your body temperature regulate and cotton does an excellent job at that way, better than polyester or other materials. So cotton is the superior and best product. And if you, you know if every time you buy cotton, you should feel like, wow, you know, I'm really treating myself well. I'm buying 100% cotton, maybe undyed, maybe unbleached, you know, regenerative, organic cotton, whatever seal, certification, you should feel like you're doing something good to you. Because you're doing something good to you, it is a very. It is the best kind of material for most use cases, for textiles.
Speaker 1:At a very basic level for people who are like I'm so overwhelmed by this conversation where can I even start? To just be able to tell them start with cotton. I think it's important to give people those baby steps, because we are in a minute going to deep dive on dyes and all of that, but I do want people to have the baby step. Look for something that is 100% organic cotton and that is better than you wearing petroleum derived plastic clothing. You're already doing better.
Speaker 4:Exactly.
Speaker 3:The regenerative piece has become particularly meaningful for me. I mean, my parents are farmers from the Midwest and so, having that personal connection of understanding how deeply most farmers actually really care for the land and have a personal relationship with the land, I think that often there's a vilification there that is unfounded, because most farmers don't want to be monocropping or they don't want to be working in a way that's destructive to the land and unfortunately, what's come in with cotton? Not organic cotton, but cotton, conventional cotton, as you mentioned, like it does often require a lot of pesticides, fertilizer. It's often a monocrop. It's often grown in places where it's maybe not the most suited for the environment. So a lot of those statistics about like 2000 plus gallons of water to make a t-shirt.
Speaker 3:There's some controversy around how some of these numbers are derived, but I think what's not arguable is that conventional cotton is not good for the environment, not good for the workers, not good for us who are wearing it. However, something like regenerative, where that becomes so exciting is it's actually looking back toward this very interdependent human relationship with the land and it's supporting small scale farmers to come together in a collective, and because of this there's been instances in Brazil and India and in a couple places in Africa where people have been able to raise the economic benefit because it's a collective experience and they're collectively being able to have higher standards of what they expect from the industry too, and so I think that regenerative is a really exciting movement, and there's not a lot of companies right now who are yet pursuing this, at least externally. That doesn't mean they're not internally. I'm very excited for anyone who is, but I just want to be clear that this is not a marketing thing. Organic is a big difference from conventional cotton, but regenerative is a big difference from organic cotton.
Speaker 1:I love this conversation because this is a narrative that I have with fragrance companies all the time and it completely applies. I have companies come to me and tell me constantly synthetic is sustainable and these petroleum derived synthetic molecules that we're putting in our fragrance they're sustainable. And it would be bad for the environment and it would be terribly unethical of us to use natural substances to distill essential oils Like that is so crop intensive and it's all these things. And I tell them exactly what you just said. I work with companies that are 100%, not just organic. I work with companies that are 100%, not just organic, fully regenerative. You go to their farm. There's animals, there's wormhouses. I always tell people to watch that documentary, the Biggest Little Farm, or Kiss the Ground.
Speaker 1:Regenerative farming is having a moment and I hope that that moment expands, because if companies were actually producing ethical fragrance from regenerative farms, everyone wins Our soil gets restored, our minerals come back. We're all wearing fragrances that are natural and from the earth and not full of toxic synthetic ingredients that are usually not disclosed anyway, similar to clothing, and so I think this is a bigger conversation. I think it's textiles, I think it's fragrance, I think it's our food. It's the whole ecosystem of the way that we interact with our environment and what we consume, and I am so in on regenerative.
Speaker 1:When I work with companies, they're few and far between. I can tell you there's three. There's three that I'm working with right now that are fully committed to regenerative agriculture and producing a clean, safe fragrance, and so I could imagine the textile industry if they were to collectively say we're going to do this. I mean, imagine what that would do to the farmers and to our land and to the consumers, for our health, for our water supply, for everything. If we embraced regenerative agriculture, there would be no argument for synthetic anything.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's a learning, there's a process, there's a growing in community. We're all evolving together. Our sheets are made out of organic cotton and that has been a huge improvement from conventional, and we're excited that with our upcoming lines we're moving towards regenerative, and some of that was actually an inspiration from an organization called Farmer's Footprint that is doing extraordinary work. It's a really exciting thing to participate in and to learn from each other and to learn within the industry and also cross industries and say how can we do this collectively better. I love that.
Speaker 1:My heart is exploding right now. I'm like so let's move into dyes. So we kind of talked about the fiber, like natural fibers, get away from plastic, don't buy plastic. But what about the color? What is clothing actually dyed with?
Speaker 4:Pretty much all dyes, synthetic dyes. You know there's a lot of marketing on like low impact, non-tox, blah, blah, blah blah. But what low impact means? It still means it's made from petroleum, but maybe a little bit less than before, or whatever. They have a new filter in their factory.
Speaker 4:Most of the colors in textiles is petroleum based, and that's the big irony in this sort of people who, or companies that grew very big on their sustainability promise and how organic they are, is that maybe they have here and there some organic fibers but they still diet with petrochemicals, which also makes the product pretty unrecyclable and also non-biodegradable. Right, Because it has these particles in there that just you know they behave like plastic. They'll stick with us forever. So that is sort of the impetus for creating this company, or not? Just you know, becoming doing advocacy and talking for us was to like, see, like, but can we then actually make it different? We wanted to see if it's actually possible to do it and then see where the weaknesses actually are and see to find technical solutions for these problems and to make products then that don't have any petrochemical dyes in them. That is what Isomedas is to focus on that very problem. That color is usually made from petrochemicals. Something that Michael told me when I first joined the company is to focus on that very problem.
Speaker 3:that color is usually made from petrochemicals, something that Michael told me when I first joined the company, that I now have stolen this example because I think it's brilliant and, for those who don't know, the company was originally founded from a crowdfunding effort in Japan.
Speaker 3:Misa, the co-founder, is from Japan and Michael lived there for 10 years. They drew a lot of inspiration from the Japanese tradition of aizome dyeing. That's, I believe, where the name came from for the company, which is to work with indigo dye, which, interestingly, is actually used in cultures all over the world historically, but that traditionally, japanese samurai used to dye their clothing with indigo because they learned if they were going to battle, the indigo would help to prevent their wounds from festering. Now the industry uses synthetic indigo, like for blue genes and stuff like that which contains aniline, which is a nerve toxin. This is the shift that has happened in the industry, partly because there is this move toward petrochemical derived, but what's exciting is the potential that lies within shifting back toward and not just plant-based, which is a very tricky word, because plant-based can cover all the plants, it's like plant-derived.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but we're talking plant-made and Karen can maybe speak a little bit more to that. The potential, truly that is within having these plant-made dyes and the natural medicinal benefits that are in the plants and whether or not that's transferable to the fiber. But this is something our ancestors used to do. It seems nonsensical that we've gone so completely in the opposite direction.
Speaker 1:So the difference between a synthetic indigo, that's petroleum derived, and what you guys use, which is a plant made indigo, what is the cost differential Like? Why do companies have a massive motivation behind not using plant made indigo? Is it like 25 times the cost?
Speaker 4:So one of the things that I can say now, differently than being like just an advocate or somebody who is doing sustainability, is like we produce those things, we buy those things. We get a quotation for a ton of regenerative cotton versus organic cotton versus normal cotton, and one thing that continuously I do all the time is like it's not so expensive, it's not that much more, for example, regenerative cotton was that it was in our total production cost an extra 25 an extra 25 cents on our total production cost?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I feel like are you kidding? 25 cents and I'm like that's what these companies are.
Speaker 4:I mean that and if we, if we sell let's say we sell a t-shirt for like $40, that's 25 cents I don't even care. But like I'm a small company, I literally don't care. 25 cents more or less. Nobody's evil here, right, it's just. That's just how things work In a big company.
Speaker 4:I've spoken on a technical trade show with a guy who's doing dyes for cosmetic companies and also for textile companies and they said how they often went to like said, hey, we have this new chemistry for like a plant color. And he said a company, a textile company, would not accept it if it costs just 1% more, like of the color, not even the production, just the color. 1% more, it's an unacceptable cost. Because why? Nobody knows, nobody cares. Like the sustainability thing, you just need to have one. There's enough studies that show. If there's one sustainability check, nobody cares about all the other things. So if you can say we've donated last year to clean rainforest, whatever, people are like, oh, this is sustainable, great.
Speaker 4:So production piece in production cost by one to a big company that lives, you know that is analyzed by people who look on big Excel sheets and go like, what One percent? That's over $5 million per year. That's not acceptable. Who cares, and I think that's I always want to say, like nobody's evil, and I don't want to vilify the other people the they're all you know. People are doing their job, but it's the logic of the market, it's the logic of capitalism, it's the logic of these companies operate. But I can definitely tell you one thing our products are not crazy expensive. Actually they are more expensive because we use very good quality cotton, we have a very high standard of wheat. I mean pretty much in terms of sheets, this is the best possible bed sheets you can make and then we dye it with plants, which adds a little bit of extra cost, but it's all marginal, it's not a lot, and it's not 25% at all like Edward 25 times. It is really, really marginal how much these things cost extra these things cost extra.
Speaker 1:That's mind blowing to me that there's such a small distance between the toxic clothing that's being purchased, that we're putting on our bodies that is causing us so many health issues that we'll talk about in a second versus something that can be clean and healthy and sustainable, not just for our health but for the environment.
Speaker 4:You know, I think that video that circulated of the turtle with the straw stuck in their nose. When people go like why are we doing this? It's so crazy, and I think that's the moments that we need, where we just go. This is crazy, this is not worth it and we want to go in a different direction.
Speaker 3:I think that's a really important point where you just said the piece about people got so upset about turtles, and I think rightfully so, because there was an emotional connection to it, and that is something I think we're missing in this conversation.
Speaker 3:When we abstract the idea that we're not somehow impacted by chemical effluent being released into the waterways or workers being exploited. If that's somehow we still are so strongly sticking to the story of separation, we're able to also separate out our emotion from this, and that's why I think it's so empowering to switch the conversation into no, this actually is immediately impacting me and my children and my health.
Speaker 1:So let's dive into health. I feel like I read a study that you guys did on indigo and clothes. Can you share a little bit about that?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So when I started about probably eight or nine years working at doing like night shifts and researching papers on Google Scholar and going like, well, what plant dies, how does this work and do they have any effect? The samurai story I was like this is so cool, but is this BS? Does this actually work? And I was also aware often like, like, very like, almost like kind of a nightmare. I don't want to sell any snake oil Like I don't want to make.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't want to give false hope to people.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I don't want to make up something that doesn't. That's not true. And you know I don't want to vilify synthetic dyes. If there's an overwhelming amount of studies that synthetic dyes actually are bad, we are sort of a health product just by effect of not doing a lot of things, like we don't add all these chemicals 10,000 of different chemicals, I think, actually 11,000 different chemicals and plastic have not been tested for safety. But what Megan touched on before is like we want to connect this a little bit with, like ancient wisdom of, like you know, people in the past did not just transfer, didn't use plants to just transfer color, but they also transferred known properties from a plant into a textile. And if that sounds esoteric, that's exactly how pharmaceutical companies make medicine. They look at what works in nature and say, oh, this frog is very good at doing this and that and we'll, okay, we synthesize this and make it a pill and sell it to you and maybe, I don't know, you could just lick the frog.
Speaker 1:Add some petroleum-based products in there.
Speaker 4:Exactly, yeah, and so one of the things that I so often quoted was how indigo works. But there's a lot of ayurvedic medicine too where they say like, oh, with this condition you should. That color is made from that plant. That plant has these effects and when you put it into that textile, these pigments continue to work in the same way. And the first thing that made me curious about it was, well, dermal transportation nicotine patches that's how they work. Our skin absorbs stuff all the time. It's reasonable to think that stuff that rubs on your skin gets absorbed. It's reasonable because that's literally what's happening.
Speaker 4:But I wanted to know is this actually a wound healing agent? And so I pitched to a lot of people who helped me to do a study because I had no idea how to do this, and luckily I found through a very good friend who's, I would say, like a passionate advisor of the company, and His mother helped me to connect with researchers from the University of Cambridge who then specifically made a study on applying indigo to infected wounds of mice and see if that would actually help wound healing. And we were all super surprised that it's a super active wound healing agent. It works a lot, and we actually had problems in the beginning publishing it, because we tried to publish it in Nature and I said it's amazing, you have to explain how it works. We don't know exactly how it works, we have some suspicion. What agent does the wound healing and so on.
Speaker 4:But anyway, the claim that plant dyes have medicinal effect is not out of the world and it's actually obvious that more study needs to be done. How long does it work in textiles? How many wash cycles and so on and these things. There's more study to be done. But the basic fact is and I have a very good friend and advisor who told me this is we sometimes dismiss knowledge from sort of non-western medical backgrounds, but they've done their own science by virtue of doing this many generations over generations and tested these things. It's like an evolution and things people said like this works. And if you look at indigo, that's literally done in completely non-connected cultures around the world, whether Cherokee Indians or in the Middle East, or in India or in Japan, where people observed that indigo dye textiles are amazing for skin.
Speaker 1:So I want to just share a personal story. I've never talked about this publicly ever not on my Instagram, not on my podcast and I'm usually an open book, but for whatever reason I have never shared this. But back before I was super into my health and avoiding toxins and doing all the good things that I need to do to heal my body and heal my autoimmune. I suffered from migraines for 20 years, so I popped Excedrin like literally every day. I have really screwed up my gut health and my immune system by years and years and years of not taking care of it, and I'm so much better now. But one of the things that I have struggled with for 10 years, I would say, is tinea versicolor, which is a skin condition that really discolors places, especially where you sweat. So whenever the summer would come around, or if it was deep winter and I was like bundled up all the time, I would get these tinea versa color kind of outbreaks, and they outbreak in embarrassing places, like between my thighs or like under my breasts, and so in the summertime sometimes I would not go swimming, I would cover up. It was definitely a confidence thing for me. So I've been using your sheets now for like two to three months. It's exclusively what we sleep on now and my tinea versicolor is completely gone, like gone, gone, and in 10 years it's never been gone, gone.
Speaker 1:I have done rounds and rounds of internal antifungals. I've been on medications, I've taken all the things and doctors have always said, well, this is just always going to be something you're going to have to deal with. You're going to have to just manage it every summer and I can't even tell you what it feels like to have clear skin and have it gone, like I can't wait for the summer to put a bathing suit on. And I think about my daughter who suffered horrific eczema, and I think about all my clients and my customers who are in my DMs. I have dandruff, I have eczema, I have all these skin conditions and it is debilitating. I mean it sounds so superficial but it's not. It's such a deep thing and insecurity that people have when you have these skin conditions and these skin conditions and these allergies, and this eczema is skyrocketing and the way that infertility is skyrocketing. And it is because I have read all the research. It is because of environmental toxins, it's because of what's in our food, it's because of what we're putting on our body, it's all of it, it's the water we're drinking and I like we washed the sheets the other day and my husband was going to go put a different pair of sheets on the bed and I was like, don't you dare, like we are never, we're never, I'm buying another pair, the kids are getting their own, we're all sleeping on indigo sheets.
Speaker 1:That's just how this is going to go from now on. But it's life-changing to feel it and to see it firsthand. And I also went as soon as it started happening. I like went on the internet and I think that's where I found that study. I was like is this really healing? And it is. There's actual, like published studies that show that the indigo that comes from plants is healing. And I want people to know this and I want people to hear this, because I know so many people suffering from skin conditions and I just want to scream at the rooftops like go buy these sheets, just do it, just go buy them. I wish I could. I was a bajillionaire and I could just donate them to everybody because it's so impactful.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much. It means the world to. I'm sure it's big for all of us that what we do actually has an impact on people's life. Because it's, as you said, like I. I have terrible dandruff as well and it's so embarrassing. Sometimes I'm also, oh my god, and it gets worse when I'm sleeping in hotels and it gets better when I'm. I have my own pillowcase, and you know there are other things too, like shampoo and so on. But I mean these things they rub on your skin. You mentioned it before. Like you know, skin it rubs on your. Your pillowcase rubs on your face, yeah, every night. So but it means a lot thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 3:Oh, I didn't mean to make you cry. I have mascara on and it's not waterproof mascara, because I don't use that anymore, because there's pfas in it.
Speaker 1:Now it's gonna be running everywhere. I have some toxin-free shampoo to lighten up the conversation.
Speaker 4:we get a lot of amazing reviews and people write stuff like this makes me very happy. But the best review you had from somebody who said, who wrote I've been trying to get pregnant for six years and then I bought, bought your sheets and like one month later I'm pregnant and I'm quite sure that is placebo effect.
Speaker 3:You don't think we can include that in advertising. No, what I was gonna say is, because of this work, I've been able to connect with some of those people. Brianna Banos is one of them.
Speaker 3:She created a documentary called Preventable, that is just extraordinary and she's taught me so much about eczema and TSW, and we're careful to say that we cannot at this moment say like our sheets cure eczema. They don't right. But certainly it's not inconceivable to think that sheets or clothing that is filled with undisclosed chemicals, petrochemicals, allergens or harming. There was a study done in 78 by someone called Bloom. He had children sleep in pajamas that have been treated with flame retardants for eight hours and the next morning he tested and they had 50 times the acceptable limit of these chemicals in their urine. And that's something that I really like to to share with people because, yes, this, this impacts our skin, this you know. But just because you're not having atopic dermatitis or eczema or some sort of reaction doesn't mean that it's not.
Speaker 4:Also, now, it's something that is interacting with your body yeah, and to to add this a lot of things are accumulative. A lot of allergies are accumulative over years, a lot of skin conditions are accumulative and the best way to think about many of the things, it's almost like a PTSD thing that your body went like I've gotten so much of this so now I'm just reacting like crazy to even the smallest amount. To warn you, and why is this happening? Well, it's because we're so exposed to this very high amount of these, of these chemicals, and people with skin condition allergies are the lucky ones, because their body is finally telling them that something is wrong it's not good, maybe it.
Speaker 4:Maybe it's a warning system that shows up quicker because the stuff with the PFAS and the urine you don't even see anything right. You do this for many years before anything ever appears that's happening, and then it's often too late to change anything.
Speaker 1:I always tell people there's a lot of medications out there and the intention of them is to suppress your symptoms, and that's great. I'm so happy you feel better. I'm not downplaying what that relief means to you, but you just shut off your body's alarm system. So how do you know what else is happening or what's going on or what works or what doesn't? It's a difficult conversation and skin sensitizers is a huge problem, and explaining to people that it's a huge problem that well, you could use that. You know you could dye your hair. There's a lot of skin sensitizers and hair dye.
Speaker 1:I gave up my hair dye. That was one of the things I did in 2024. You know you could use it for 10 years and all it takes is that one time to set you over the edge. Your skin's been sensitized, your body is like I can't do this anymore, and people come to me. Their hair is falling out. The allergic reactions are horrific. I mean, these environmental toxins don't deserve a place in our life and the more we can reduce them, you're not going to get rid of them completely.
Speaker 1:That's not a realistic perspective. I have a tagline. I always say better is better. Babe, if you're doing better, if the thing that you buy next is better, you run out of something, and then the thing you buy after that is just a little bit better. Your body will thank you Any reduction in the amount of your toxic exposure. So, whether we're talking about fragrance or makeup or clothing or your bedsheets, right, but bedsheets are the thing that's your every day. Your clothing is your every day. It's your all day. It's your every day. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:Well, and people don't want to hear that, because I think there's just a general assumption If I can buy it, it's safe or it should be safe, and you talked about when we were talking about regenerative cotton and the industry and fragrance you were talking about is it possible to make a clean and safe fragrance? A lot of people look for fragrance free, but does that make the product clean and safe? Not necessarily. And when we're talking about textiles, there's an assumption that there is some regulatory body out there that's helping it. I think the label. In some ways it was put there for a reason, for a trade reason, but people make assumptions that the label means it has undergone some kind of testing or there's a regulatory authority, or it's much like a nutrition label that we see in food and the regulatory complexities of what goes into the entire life cycle of a textile. You would have to go to law school a couple times to even touch upon how complex that is.
Speaker 1:And you're having conversations right about the actual label itself. You and I have talked about my daughter having eczema. One of the things that I was constantly looking for was tagless Desper desperately trying to find something that would not rub her skin Like tags are freaking irritating.
Speaker 2:Well, and they just you know anyone that either has someone they know, someone they love, or themselves has some kind of chronic condition, and it could be anything. That tag becomes irritating, distracting, it contributes someone has chronic pain, fibromyalgia, skin condition or any of the above, and it's impossible to find tagless clothing. I mean, that's one of the most obvious places. This label, theoretically, is placed there for a reason. Maybe it's good it communicates care instructions, it communicates. Maybe it's good it communicates care instructions. It communicates, you know, textile type, country of origin, but it's certainly not equivalent to a health and safety label. It's not an ingredient list. It's not informing the consumer If that consumer is looking for. How would this affect my health? That information isn't there.
Speaker 4:It's mostly for trade. Right, it's a trade thing. How is it taxed by country of origin and fiber? That has more to do with trade than any ingredients or health or consumer forward I'd love to see that change.
Speaker 1:I'd love to see some regulatory action that actually requires ingredients. You know when personal care products are required. If it's synthetic dye, it's on the label. I can teach people to read a label and so that they know. It would be really great to move regulation forward to be more transparent on clothing.
Speaker 2:When I think there is not only the consciousness is coming up in this regard, but that there are consumers, your listeners. They want a choice to say okay, if I want to have textiles, if I want to have sheets, if I want to have clothing, if I want to buy a blanket, if I want this for my kids, where do I find these textiles that don't have those ingredients? And that's that's kind of the impossible question. That's why NECL started on this journey. I mean, that's why we're speaking today and there is no one agency, as you know.
Speaker 2:These are all inefficient ways to regulate something that's already a problem. If you consider synthetics and textiles and toxicity in the entire textile life cycle a problem, we're always in cleanup mode or litigation is an inefficient way. Right, once we know something's making people sick or the environment sick or causing the workers a problem, then we're really looking backwards to try to regulate that out of existence. And in all these conversations we're having, one of the things we're talking about is can we make something where we take the toxicity that is infused already in these products out, toxicity that is infused already in these products out? Can we make it from the beginning to the end user without the toxicity.
Speaker 2:Different question whether we could now infuse medicinal benefits or potentially wound healing properties or other properties that are in these traditional plants and dyes and traditional techniques. Could we infuse and impart benefits into those textiles? So that's how I got involved, because I've known Megan and Nicole and I think that they've shown something, particularly in their bedsheets, that it's not impossible. It's not impossible to set out to create a textile that removes toxicity from the process so that the end user can start there, and I'm excited about the wearables to come out. This is a product I needed 15 years ago, so let's talk about it.
Speaker 1:It's all been building up to this moment. So you, up until this point, have been bedsheets, have been your thing, and now you are getting into the apparel world. I can't wait to get my hands on them. Can you tell us what is coming and what we should all be excited about?
Speaker 3:Very excited to tell you what's coming. So we did many, many months of research, even to find a new factory to work with, because our current dyeing process wasn't suitable yet for garment dye. So we had to find and how do we go about this now? And so I've spent many almost a year looking for a new manufacturer and ended up working with this company. That was one of the founders of the organic textile movement, really, and for me it was also very meaningful because it ended up, coincidentally, to be in the same city that I was working in India 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, a little circle moment working in India 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:So, yeah.
Speaker 3:We went back and spent a week with them and when we approached them we said we want to make something that's synthetic free. And they said, yes, of course we make for all of the big organic brands. And I said, yeah, but we want to make something synthetic free. And they're like, okay. And so we went and said, okay, we want to start with regenerative, organic, unbleached cotton. And they looked at me and they're like, okay. And so we went and said, okay, we want to start with regenerative, organic, unbleached cotton. And they looked at me and they were like we're gonna have to source everything special for you. And then I asked them how do you process this when it comes into the, the warehouse? And they said, well, gots standards, we wash it with acostic soda, but don't worry, we neutralize that with acetic acid. And we said, okay, but what if we try a bioenzyme wash instead? And they were like, okay, we haven't tried that, but yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:And then we ended up walking through the factory to every single machine and said do you add synthetic chemicals here? And there was one. It was like, yeah, we add silicone for softness also, fine, under some of these certifications. And we said, okay, but do we have to. Can we try doing this really truly synthetic free and by the end of it?
Speaker 3:It was really exciting because, honestly, we came in we're such a at the moment, tiny company and they have brands that are ordering many hundreds of thousands of pieces from them per month, and we came in and we said we can order 2000 total. And we asked them why are you even taking us on? Because this is a lot of extra work for you guys to do this. You know you're not using poly threads, you're not using any of the detergents and things. And they said because, to our knowledge, no one has done this yet and they should, and we want to be a part of that. So in about a month we will be releasing this thing that I have on. This is a completely synthetic gray shirt that is made with 100% regenerative, organic, unbleached cotton, no detergents or softeners or anything like that, made completely with 100 cotton thread and dyed with plants, and so we are in the final stages and having everything tested and it should be released to the public within the next month ideally.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited and I know I said it at the beginning but you're changing everything. Like you're changing everything, and to you guys are this small family brand that I am now emotionally invested in? You guys so much? But you're going to change everything Because I'll tell you, when I call companies and I give them my list of questions, the percentage that actually respond to me because they're not super annoyed by my questions.
Speaker 1:They tell me things like well, we can't do that, we can't source it that way, we can't not bleach it. It has to be bleached, right? I get these questions and then I get these answers that I don't like because the answer is that's impossible. But you are showing everyone that it is absolutely possible and what I hope happens is that manufacturer that you're using that now sees the possibility that the companies that he is sourcing, that are the big companies, will come on board and be like well, if Izomi can do it, well, we should do that too, because some of these companies really are trying to do the right thing, but they have been met with it's impossible. Their manufacturers are telling them that's impossible. They told me that, well, it's not impossible. You're proving that none of this is impossible. We can do this.
Speaker 4:It's literally why we started, me and my wife and me. We started with like going to big textile mills and we said like hey, you know plant dyes and we think there's this technology avenue and like we would be able to make this color fast. And they basically said, no, you know, it's not possible. The colors will wash out. You can't make neon colors, the consumer doesn't care. And then we were like this is maybe six years ago. We were like, oh, maybe we're crazy and maybe you know, we should just leave it at this.
Speaker 4:And then we or we try and we make a video and put it on indiegogo and kickstart and see if people actually don't care. And then, and then we had a few months, we had 127 000 in orders and we're like, oh no, we have to make it. And then all this thing came like with shipping and customs and all these business things that we didn't expect and they're all complicated. But the fact is, I think that we just were forced to actually show that we can do it. And then also, people care and we still can't do neon colors right, but it's, and the color fastness is no problem. Like that all these things can be solved. But it was literally, you know, as you said, like this whole wall of like it can't be done, and then just this thing that you go like really.
Speaker 3:But I want to try myself I love that grit yeah and speaking to that I mean one of the things that you guys found. You did a lot of research to find people who were technologically trying to advance plant dye and you found this individual who was working with a specific dyeing technology that incorporates ultrasound. That also, coincidentally, helps to reduce the amount of dye water needed by about 75%. And then, because we're only using plants, and I know for years you guys were trying to explain to people but no, this is really different, like there are other chemicals, unfortunately often in a lot of things that are organic textile. And then one night you're like but this is so different, I could literally take the waste from this and put it on my face and it would be good for me. And we were challenged. Well then, do it.
Speaker 1:You made skincare out of it, didn't you?
Speaker 3:We did so we took our dye wastewater from this particular dyeing technology and turned it into skin serum. It's a certified skin serum. It's not available on the market because we were just really trying to prove a point.
Speaker 1:It's like a hydrosol. Right, you create an essential oil. The byproduct of that if you're using pure water, filtered water, all the things you're just using steam distillation the byproduct is hydrosol, which is amazing for your face. It makes total sense to me in my head that when you have this dyeing process with plants and indigo, that the byproduct of that would be a beautiful skincare, especially with all the skin. I want some. Where do I get it?
Speaker 2:A beautiful and a beneficial one. I mean, when you're talking about a closed loop system where you don't add toxicity and you use something that imparts potential benefits, then the byproduct you don't need to call it waste anymore.
Speaker 3:And this is where I think the innovation in the industry has extraordinary potential Right now. Honestly speaking, it's frustrating to see so much being pushed towards recycling, as though that's the only answer, as though recycling petroleum-based fibers is somehow that health is not a part of that conversation and that that's the only real consideration for sustainability that's being invested in right now. When it's like what if you know? You want to talk about reclaiming waste, like we can not only reclaim our waste as skincare, potentially, for only using plants, but what about reclaiming waste like we can not only reclaim our waste as skincare, potentially, if we're only using plants, but what about reclaiming waste to even make the dyes you could look at, you know? Because a very reasonable argument is that to grow all of the plant dyes that we need for the amount of textiles we consume right now is untenable. Absolutely true, but what about avocado pits? What about onion skins? What about using food waste to create dye that can then, at worst, be turned into fertilizer, at best, be turned into skincare?
Speaker 1:I love it. I love you guys so much.
Speaker 1:I see a bright, bright future and you guys give me hope. That story I said at the beginning of the podcast, where that PFAS regulation almost kind of made me sad, because it felt kind of like a hollow victory and, while I was happy on the outside I did have this kind of like oh, this is such an uphill battle. It's such a long fought, hard uphill battle. But this conversation gives me hope that the industry can change and people want it to change, yeah, and and it's happened.
Speaker 4:I mean, this happened many times before. I think people underestimate what happens in 10 years and overestimate what can happen in one year, like people often think. Oh you know, things are so slow. But like 10, 20 years I mean, look at organic food Like nobody's mind. 50 years, not many, almost nobody's mind Things change and it takes like these kind of conversations that people continue talking about and they're curious about it.
Speaker 4:And I had one, you know, I was in an old bar in Japan, very drunk, with an artist, and then he said to me he said, like you in the West, you're just not materialistic enough.
Speaker 4:And I was like, no, no, you mean, we are too materialistic. He's like, no, you know nothing about the materials you use, you don't care about the materials, and that's something that I also find so much fun of what you're doing, you know. So, of course, what we're doing is that we really carry like, what is this made of? What is in there, how, where does that come from and how does that impact the person? Who made it and how does it impact me and how if I discard it? Like that's a lot of fun and it's interesting and just, it takes time and we definitely, while we're doing this, we evolve a lot, we learn a lot and, you know, company will evolve with us and I think, um, yeah, and I really hope you know, for I mean we are we get a lot of, you know, positive energy from you talking with us, from other people talking with us, and we evolve together as a community well, thank you.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to have you guys back on to have another, like, I think, a year from now. This is going to be a completely different conversation, and I want to be first in line to purchase your apparel. I will wear it on the internet every day and talk about the importance of our clothing and what we put on our body and what it means to our health, and also what it means to vote with your wallet and support the companies that are really changing things, and that's you guys. So thank you for being here. I appreciate you three so so much.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much. Yeah, there's so many different pieces that are happening right now that we're just one, and it's so exciting to be able to contribute to that and then to join this community. Thank you so much for having us. I'm very excited for these conversations to continue.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you so much for having us and for sharing your excitement. Super happy to hear it. Of course, I love it, thank you.