When Sonia Gonzalez charts her voyage from El Salvador's energy sector to her impactful work with The Open Group, it's more than a career recap—it's the blueprint for thriving in a world where adaptability reigns. Our conversation with Sonia, Digital Portfolio Manager for The Open Group, is a testament to the tenacity and foresight needed to introduce internet services in a developing country and to navigate the complex terrain of business and Enterprise Architecture across continents. Her experiences encapsulate a truth many professionals face: the art of seizing growth opportunities can transform both your career and the industries you touch.
Sonia's narrative isn't just about professional evolution; it is also a deep dive into the heart of leadership, communication, and the strategic significance of Enterprise Architecture in Latin America. As she shares the challenges of moving from a technical expert to a digital portfolio manager, listeners will gain insights into the subtleties of steering group dynamics, fostering effective communication, and the transformative power of assertive communication training. Her reflections on leading in multi-faceted roles against the backdrop of her work in Costa Rica and El Salvador provide invaluable strategies for anyone aiming to guide their teams through intricate decision-making processes.
Our episode rounds out with a candid look at the gender-specific hurdles Sonia has overcome, providing a sobering yet resilient perspective on the tech industry in Central America. Her dedication to personal growth, her passion for tech, and her continuous pursuit of knowledge are inspirations that resonate beyond the boundaries of her journey. As Sonia shares stories of implementing IT architecture in new environments, it's clear: the lessons from her career are universal, serving as a beacon for professionals navigating their paths in an ever-changing digital landscape. Join us to hear how one woman's career trajectory is shaping the industry and empowering others to chart their own courses.
Copyright © The Open Group 2023-2024. All rights reserved.
When Sonia Gonzalez charts her voyage from El Salvador's energy sector to her impactful work with The Open Group, it's more than a career recap—it's the blueprint for thriving in a world where adaptability reigns. Our conversation with Sonia, Digital Portfolio Manager for The Open Group, is a testament to the tenacity and foresight needed to introduce internet services in a developing country and to navigate the complex terrain of business and Enterprise Architecture across continents. Her experiences encapsulate a truth many professionals face: the art of seizing growth opportunities can transform both your career and the industries you touch.
Sonia's narrative isn't just about professional evolution; it is also a deep dive into the heart of leadership, communication, and the strategic significance of Enterprise Architecture in Latin America. As she shares the challenges of moving from a technical expert to a digital portfolio manager, listeners will gain insights into the subtleties of steering group dynamics, fostering effective communication, and the transformative power of assertive communication training. Her reflections on leading in multi-faceted roles against the backdrop of her work in Costa Rica and El Salvador provide invaluable strategies for anyone aiming to guide their teams through intricate decision-making processes.
Our episode rounds out with a candid look at the gender-specific hurdles Sonia has overcome, providing a sobering yet resilient perspective on the tech industry in Central America. Her dedication to personal growth, her passion for tech, and her continuous pursuit of knowledge are inspirations that resonate beyond the boundaries of her journey. As Sonia shares stories of implementing IT architecture in new environments, it's clear: the lessons from her career are universal, serving as a beacon for professionals navigating their paths in an ever-changing digital landscape. Join us to hear how one woman's career trajectory is shaping the industry and empowering others to chart their own courses.
Copyright © The Open Group 2023-2024. All rights reserved.
Welcome to Open Comments with myself, Ash and me, Oliver.
Speaker 2:And me Irene.
Speaker 1:A show that opens a conversation onto career advice, career journeys, lifelong learning and more Through this innovative podcast. We'll be offering insightful dialogues with an equal mix of humor and candor. Join us as we embark on an engaging conversational journey with a diverse set of guests from different walks of life. We hope you enjoy our show and look forward to bringing more topics into the fold for you through each episode. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2:With us today is Sonia Gonzalez, who is the Digital Portfolio Manager for the Open Group. Prior to this, sonia was the Togath Product Manager. Sonia has 30 years of experience as a business and enterprise architecture consultant in different fields and industry verticals. Sonia's professional experience as a project manager includes leading highly effective teams and applying different frameworks, best practices and tools. Academic degrees master's degree in business administration, universidad de Costa Rica. Computer engineer, universidad de Costa Rica. Professional training and certifications Togath 9.2 certification. Archimate 3.1 certification. Covid-5 foundation certification. Training in BPMN and certified safe for practitioner. Certified product manager, association of International Product Marketing and Management. Thank you, sonia, for joining us for this episode at the Open Group Houston Summit to discuss your career journey and lifelong learning and more Okay. Thank you very much for having me here.
Speaker 1:So, to start things off, can you walk us through your career journey from the beginning and what sparked your interest in your field?
Speaker 4:Okay, so I started my career in 1992. At that time I was living in the Salvador because I was born there, even though then I moved to Costa Rica and I started working we know as still a university my thesis and it was an energy company in Salvador. But then and I started working as an analyst and designer, computer systems and in the electrical field, in the electrical area, and it was fun. You know, I was just starting to learn how to work after being in the university for four years and I worked in there for around three years and after my initial position I was not any more a programmer, I became an analyst in another area of the company. After that I was sent for six months to Argentina to work with another team in there and these things were working, trying to put together a lot of data around the energy sector in Latin America. So I was there representing in Salvador and my company. It was a lot of fun. I learned a lot from that. Then I came back and stayed with another work in Salvador.
Speaker 4:Then I, after leaving the energy sector, I started working with a company that was from the government. They were around the subject of creating scientists and technology into the country and at that time it was the 90s already and it was when the internet was just coming around and in Salvador there was no internet connection. We were going out to the internet through a server in Costa Rica. That was very, very beginning. So I was with this corporation, this national government agency, working to bring the internet to Salvador. So I was traveling a lot to Costa Rica without knowing I was going to leave there a few years after that. So I started working in this project and at the end we made it. We managed to create our own center in Salvador. So we were the first one that creating a domain for Salvador in the internet and one of the first to start offering email services For younger people. This may find like this is incredible, but back then there was not a lot of email. Most of that was still for the defense sector, even though I know in the US and Europe probably was years ahead, but in Latin America it started in the 90s. So it was really lucky because I started that journey in Salvador.
Speaker 4:After that, around the end of the 90s, I started working with a multinational company based in Costa Rica and they were working in the bank industry with core system banking, an area that I didn't know at the moment. I had not had any experience at all in banking, so it was an interesting challenge. So I was, I got a job in there as an analyst for the banking systems. It was a very big project with the big bank in Salvador to completely change all the core banking system and all the terminals in the ATMs and also in the agencies, the different agencies for the bank, the branches. So it was quite challenging and we spent in there like around two years and a half. For me it was learning a new industry. Working in bank is completely different, so I learned the business model, I learned the operation. I was working, of course, with my users and making programs and testing and migrating data and all that. It was a really a very good experience and I grow a lot in my field and I know a lot of very nice people.
Speaker 4:And at the moment is when I first met people for Costa Rica because we were in Salvador when that project ended around 1988, it was no more projects in Salvador because the company had to leave and so I was transferred to Costa Rica. It was supposed to be for six months, but then I was in the project in there in another very big bank in there, and I happened to like Costa Rica style of life and since the project was really really big, they decided to ask for more time for me. So we need Sonia for more time. So I ended up like staying two years in there and it was back then traveling, coming and going from the Salvador. I still live in the Salvador, but traveling a lot to Costa Rica.
Speaker 4:Eventually I asked for my job to be transferred to Costa Rica because I realized that there were no really opportunities for me in the Salvador in that field. So that's why I moved to Costa Rica in 1999. And I think it was a very good career decision. So I continued working with them for four more years. Back then I got married, I had my son in there, I was born in Costa Rica and after that I continued working with them for three more years. But then I realized that it was further, because it was a freelancer back then, because I was still not legal in Costa Rica, I was still only a resident. So I decided to quit being a freelancer. Because of my nature the favorite position for me was a consultant, traveling, and I had a baby.
Speaker 4:So I think this is not very good fit for me. So I decided to quit them and the bank hired me, I mean like a full-time employee. That was very good for me At that time. I got the citizenship because my son was born there, and I started working with the bank like a full-time employee. It was the bank of Costa Rica, one of the biggest national banks over there, and I worked for them around eight years. It was a very good chance.
Speaker 4:And at that moment in the bank I realized that the bank was not really being effective and one of the reasons is like they didn't know what they had. I mean, they have processes, information systems, but nothing was integrated. They have different processes. For example, you go into one branch as a customer and the attention was in a certain way. You will go to another one and it was a completely different process. So I told my boss I was at the IT office, but then, as a project manager that has an analyst anymore, I say we need to unify this. And then a very good friend of my ecology told me you know there isn't a discipline called Enterprise Architecture. Now what is? That Sounds interesting, you know. It's how you can put the landscape of your organization from the strategy and try to align the business, the processes, the data, the application and also a cultural change. I was like, oh, that sounds like the thing that the bank is. So I started going into that and finally we created a specific unit into the bank. It was called Enterprise Architecture. We depend directly to the PMO at the project management office and the strategic office, so it was a very good position for Enterprise Architect.
Speaker 4:It was a struggle, you know, because people wouldn't even understand what Enterprise Architecture was. We were around 2010. And even though probably here in the US and in Europe everybody will know what Toga was, or EA In Latin America, but then it was not the practice was really known. A few people will know about Toga, if I remember with this call, you might tell me have you heard about Toga? I say what's Toga? It's the Open Group Practice to framework. And he showed me the big book. No, it was the previous version. It was, I think, 8.1 still. So you know you can read it online. You need to be a member. So that was my first encounter with the Open Group and I started reading the thing and, to be honest, this is not something that you should read page by page because I can be lost. So I decided to start downloading white papers and getting into the practice and the more I learned, the more convinced I was this is what the van needs. It was a struggle, you know, because the van was not convinced and, even though we depend on the general manager, the question was what's the value of this, which is a very common question for Enterprise Architecture. So at the end we managed to convince sort of convince the manager and we started making the project.
Speaker 4:The first EA project in the van. It ran customer service, customer service for an account creation. It wasn't very specific because the van is very complex and it was difficult to start with a bigger area. So we started with that, trying to unify customer processes and data and even doing that supposed to be small part. It was quite challenging. So it was almost a three year project. We decided to hire a consultant and we made a bid and everything. They won the contest. We bought a tool by the time it was an IBM tool back then and we started working on that and at the moment I was already in contact with the Open Group.
Speaker 4:I had already been in one of the events. I think it was in San Diego and I was really excited and that was the first time that I saw people from the Open Group. I remember being at the event a little bit lost at the beginning. I said, okay, what is this? And then I think they were presenting Toga 9.1. Toga 9.1, I don't remember the version, but it was the first one that will have the metamodal in there. So I remember Mike Lambert was presenting that.
Speaker 4:Later on he became my chair, which is after that, and I remember being at the plenary and Alan Brown was the CEO. Back then I started asking okay, so many people here, which countries you are from? They say the UK, the US, I don't know Germany, and suddenly I raised my hand and say Costa Rica, and everybody looked at me like an exotic bird because it was not very common for a Latin American person to be here and I was like, okay, so it was a very nice conference. I learned a lot in that conference. I got very excited with that. The material Came back to the bank and I told my boss we need to become a member of the Open Group. What is that? A member is a person that has to write to become involved and we can be involved in improving Toga for this Toga with the framework for enterprise architect.
Speaker 4:So I try and try and finally you got the presentation to the manager and they say no, I don't see the value of being a member, it's too expensive, but we can start using the framework. So we started using the framework, even though we're not members, and but through the use of the framework and when we hired the consultant, we started using the framework, customizing it, adapting that into two. So at the end, it became a very important project and one of the first one in the country and even in Latin America, at least Central America, I think Colombia was a little bit ahead of us and Chile a little bit and Mexico more, but at the end, costa Rica was a very good example. So back then I started receiving emails from the open group and I received an email from. I just sent a general email saying okay, the San Francisco 2012 event is coming. Propose a presentation.
Speaker 4:I went to my boss and said why do we propose the project? You're going to have to present an English. You don't have an issue with that. I was not working all the time in English, by the way, and that time I was just working in the Spanish with people from Costa Rica. I don't have no issues with that. So why don't we do that? And he said, okay, I just propose the presentation as it happened. So I did it. I write the abstract, my summary and all that. I send it and after like four weeks after that, I will receive an email from John Spencer he's not with us anymore sadly saying thank you very much for your proposal. It has been accepted.
Speaker 4:I was so happy, started screaming. You know, I was accepting the open group. I was a speaker. I went to my boss say you know what? The presentation was accepted. What are you talking about? The one for the open group? Really, are you kidding me and are you going? Of course I'm going. And I said the bank might not approve this. And I said okay, I will go with my own money. I will prepare the presentation. I will accept the proposal. I will only ask for you to take this week, not as a vacation but as an official thing. So I made it. I bought my ticket, accepted the proposal, I prepared my presentation. At the end, eventually they approved the thing, but I already bought my ticket. I use it later on because I have a family in San Francisco, so no issues.
Speaker 4:So, anyway, I went to the conference in 2012,. In there was really excited to be there as a presenter. I was not a member. Like I said, I did the presentation. It was good, well received, and in there I met some people from Mexico. They were from a company called Dux Deletions. There are three members, I think, and the thing that caught my attention is that there were members. There were, at that time, silver members, things from the architect to follow. So that, okay, this is interesting, they are members. So I started like had dinner with them and they say you know, we are going to open an office in Costa Rica where we don't have people in there because there's very few people. But then I was already. I was certified, I got certified with the van. So I had this dinner with them. It was very nice, and they say we are interested in you because you have to write profiles, you are certified, we need trainers and we need someone that would get us into this open in the office in Costa Rica. And also, we have the membership, but we are not using it. And that was music to my ears. Okay, this is good. So I came back to Costa Rica and we had a Skype call with them the following week and, to my surprise, they said we have a business proposition for you. We offer you the consultant position with us and we will be working with Mexico, but in Costa Rica you will be traveling and you will be delivering talk of training because you are certified and we want you to start going into the forums, especially the architect forums. So I accepted, of course, it was quite a change.
Speaker 4:My son was 12 by then, so I'm a single mom, I'm divorced. So I sat with him and said you know, son, this is a very big deal for me and you draw double salary and double the benefit, but I will be traveling. I put certain conditions to the traveling, of course, but I want to know what you think about this, because I will be less time at home. This work is going to be very demanding because a consultant is a full-time job more challenging than the one at the van. He said go ahead, mom, I'm fine. So I did it. I took the chance. I started working with them. It was a very nice opportunity. I worked with them two years and a half and to that I convinced them to be called gold members. So they took the Archime membership and I started becoming very active in the architecture and Archime forums.
Speaker 4:Back then I think I don't remember Raina Waysing was the architect of the Archime Forum director. She was really nice. I started working with her in the two forums. I was involved with several projects you made Back then. You may see several white papers with my name on that like an outer contributor.
Speaker 4:Back then I remember there was a really struggle about the evolution of the Togov Standard. It was already on the table but difficult to move that ahead. So I continued working and being a member, an active member. I started attending events as a speaker. I went to the Barcelona event, I went to another one. We organized one in Costa Rica, one event in Costa Rica, another one in Mexico, another one in Colombia. So back then I was very active in the region and always with the open group and the AEA also. They were active At the moment.
Speaker 4:I knew a lot of people from the open group, members and also staff Most of the staff that were back then. They are still around, most of them. So eventually I started getting interested in the open group. I say I really like to work with the open group because I love working in forums and creating standards and I had to start like I was delivering training, I'm making consultancies. So I remember being weekends working in open group papers or very late at night and I remember my brother telling me why are you working for free? I said I'm not working for free, I'm working because I want to contribute and also probably I will get a chance to become a part of the open group. So I'm investing on this.
Speaker 4:So eventually I remember there was a meeting in Boston and the company really wanted to send me. They said no, it's expensive. They said I'm a presenter in there, I have proposed A presentation. It was accepted and they say you have to cover this with your own means, which was a little bit rude. So eventually I went there. Of course by then I knew Patty and I knew Maggie and a lot of stuff and really I could even go have dinner with stuff. I was still a member After that. I remember that in that event they were really looking for a foreign director because Reina was retiring. So I remember sending an email to Chris Ford, who was at the moment still he's still VP for architecture and, chris, I'm registered in this position and he sent me an email with one link, and it was a link to the open group Human.
Speaker 4:Resources I said, okay, this is going. So I sent my resume being in Boston. I talked to him and they longed for it was the foreign ops VP. But by then I talked to him and to Chris. I said you know, I'm based in Costa Rica. It would be challenging for me to move to the US. So how this is happening, we didn't need you to move, chris is in China, I'm in Boston, our members are everywhere. Okay, so then I'm going to continue with this, because for me, moving to the US or UK with my son it was like a little bit challenging. So anyway, the process continued and it was very nice. They had.
Speaker 4:On September 15th that happens to be my birthday I received this call from their long story, the moment that I saw Boston in the phone and say, oh my God, this is the open group. So I took the call and say, sonia, is this a good moment? Yes, of course it's a good moment. He said you know, I wanted to make an offer to join, as a foreign director, the architecture and the RMA forum. Of course I was happy. I said yes, I didn't even ask for the salary at the moment, to be honest. So then that's the story.
Speaker 4:I started working with the open group in 2014. If my memory doesn't fail and my journey with the open group started with the architect of forum, you know and interesting because I joined my first open group event has staffed was in London. I think it was October 2014. And when I get there, a lot of people thought I was another member attending, even members. Okay, I was so glad you're here, but why are you wearing an open group batch? Because I'm not the new, I'm the foreign director. So most of them they didn't know there. So in that event it was formally announced that she's the new foreign director. So I was really happy, even though I learned that it was difficult because I had been a member of technical person and being a foreign director is completely different. So you need to be in the middle, you need to be in neutral, you need to be leading consensus and handling different dynamic of the members, which is not easy. I remember in the first meetings that Chris wore and they were there supporting me until I got like familiar with all the logistics. Of course, I knew the process as it, but being a member is not the same. Okay, when you're stuck, you know you get to know them deeply, but it was a very nice experience and I started learning and learning.
Speaker 4:I think one of the biggest challenges back then was to evolve the Tocque of Standard. It was a big challenge. I remember that Mike Lambert, who is a great person I really care for him. He's from the UK and he was my co-chair my first co chair and the decision at that moment was to restructure the standard in different pieces, like eventually we did, and it was controversial because a few members will not agree. Some of us will agree. So I remember being in very difficult meetings with discussions about that. But everything positive, you know, back then I really knew my members. I had been my colleges first and I started growing in that career.
Speaker 4:Eventually we could evolve in the Tocque of Standard and when I had been for a few years being an architect or an archimage foreign director, I ended up being the Tocque of Product Manager. I don't remember exactly the year now, but it may have been around 2018, I think yeah, because it was before COVID 2018, 2018, that they decided like a more executive position for me because I had been the foreign director for years, you know, and eventually you'd need a change. So I started, I took that step, you know, and eventually other foreign directors were higher I think that was just about the start of the COVID situation Started being the Tocque of Product Manager, so the view was different. That was at the time that we were planning on the release of the version Tocque 10. And it was difficult, you know, because it was the couple, the certification program, so it was a struggle a little bit, but eventually we made it and in April I think it was April 2021, because, just, I think it was after COVID hit we could finally launch Tocque 10. It was a big success, and back then I was not the foreign director anymore, but I was the Product Manager. So I was really happy to see that the journey had ended with a good outcome.
Speaker 4:And so I was the Product Manager for a couple of years a little bit less than that and even though I was enjoying it at that time, digital started calling my attention. You know every single second about digital. I remember that back then it was already the digital practitioner working group was the name back then and was being led by Dave Lonsbury, his staff. There were a few members, but sometimes I will attend some of those calls just to listen. They were, of course, a bulb in the DP book and I started hearing about portfolio and Tora and why do we put the standards in here and say this is interesting?
Speaker 4:However, I was so consumed with the Product Management and took up that it was difficult for me to just focus on that. So, again, trying to evolve my career, had conversation with Chris and also with Steve, steve Nahn and they say, okay, dave is retiring, so probably it's a good time for you to shift and the position that I would consider is better for you is the digital portfolio manager. So I took the challenge. It was almost two years now and, of course, was a completely new area, so no more architecture, even though, of course, everything is connected. So I took the challenge and started working with the portfolio and it has been like quite a journey.
Speaker 4:At the beginning it was mostly to figure out what was happening and at the moment, part of the work was mostly handled by members because it was a war activity, but eventually I took it to control that. We started gathering more members, I started trying to engage existing members and new members and I think the journey started back then and right now I think I'm really happy to say that we have evolved the portfolio and now we have more content in there, we have new standards, we have guides and eventually this is being growing more and more because now more members are interested in their standards being in there. We're also capturing more interest from the community, people asking what is the portfolio, how we can become engaged in that, and we know that this is representing also a big change on the way that we've a business at the open group offering now digital platforms and digital products, but that it is what it is important in the industry now. So we need to drink our own champagne, because we do have all of our standards are meant to be used by for digital, but are meant to be used together to create synergy. So this is one of the principles of the portfolio. You know, for all the standards are powerful, but whenever they are together, they become more relevant, more powerful. So that synergy is the one that we are trying to to put together in the portfolio. So we are evolving into that and, of course, since it is important for me to be growing, I have been taking training a couple of very good trainings with the MIT.
Speaker 4:One of them is the five building blocks for digital transformation, which is one of the finest training that the MIT will have in digital, and I have been trying to apply that to the portfolio and into the way that we are working in the open group right now, taking another one, which is how to leverage digital platforms and to monetize them, which is even more relevant.
Speaker 4:So I'm also trying to apply that in the portfolio and that training is still going on, is active at the moment, and but I think it's going to be really important for us because we need to be able to to build more demand with this platform and to make it like more awareness, create more membership, more interest in our standard certification, like trying to move all this wheel. You know that is going on. So this is where I am right now and really happy to be now almost 10 years with the open group, and I think there's a lot that we could do at the open group. I have seen it change and grow over the years. I have seen new people coming and the other people retiring or going, but still I think for me it's an interesting journey and I have to say that the same motivation that I had with the joint, the open group, almost 10 years ago is still here and growing every day.
Speaker 4:So that is like a summary of things that I have been doing since 30 years now.
Speaker 2:I guess that's quite the career journey that you had. And so it seems like you've been really passionate about your work from the very beginning. So what drives that passion? What but sparked your interest within being a data analyst and moving towards where you are now as a digital portfolio manager?
Speaker 4:I think it's learning. I think it's learning First of all, whatever.
Speaker 1:I am.
Speaker 4:I try to deliver value to the company and to the people I work with. I try to grow as a person, as a professional as well, because I convinced that you cannot grow as a professional, you don't grow as a person. So I try to keep balance, even though sometimes work is consuming, you know, can be consumed on that, but I try to keep that balance with my personal life. So I think what drives me is the challenge to grow and to learn, to also help others learn and to give value to the company I work with. That is perhaps the main driver. And also to be changing. You know, because you cannot be in a comfort zone the moment you are there. You're there. You know things are changing.
Speaker 4:Right now I'm doing this. Probably next year I'll be doing the same thing with a different view. You know everything changed and if you don't change with that, then you're ahead, you're behind, sorry, and that is something that shouldn't be good. And also I'm trying to give this example to my son. You know he's 22 now and he's learning from me. You know to grow, to embrace challenge. And I have told him don't let anyone tell you you can't do anything.
Speaker 2:Not even me.
Speaker 4:I mean, if something will come and tell you you're not able to do it, just say get out of my way, I will do it, Because that's the way you grow and you pursue things even more.
Speaker 3:If I could take us back a little bit, if you'll let me. You mentioned one of the harder challenges you had was switching from the technical side to then becoming a forum director for the architect before and what was the most? Challenging part about that transition in your career there.
Speaker 4:I think the most difficult part was to learn the boundaries, because if you're a member, you are allowed to speak in the meeting and you give your technical points and to even get into a struggle with another member. You know at the debate. When you are a forum director, you need to have a middle position. You need to be the facilitator. You cannot stand a position against or with anyone Because, remember, we are a neutral vendor and, even if that is our main principle, when I am the table with certain members, they represent their company interests and they always try to pull the things and their benefit. So I need to. The forum director needs to be very smart to avoid that from happening and to keep that balance. However, when they hire me, I was also an enterprise architect and I knew Toga almost by heart, so I was also able to deliver value being a subject matter expert. So from time to time I was also able to deliver a technical opinion, but I usually will say, okay, this is my opinion, has an enterprise architect, but has a staff I cannot vote. This is my point. And uneven to learn to stand in front of members, because sometimes they will propose something that is not fit for purpose. So you need to learn to respect them but say I don't agree with this because it's not going in the right direction. And learning to say that is difficult because our members are very open-minded persons, they are very safe in the law a lot, and saying someone of that profile, I don't agree with you. You should be done very carefully, especially in the staff. So that boundary was perhaps one of the most difficult ones.
Speaker 4:And the other one is like it was an advice that Chris Ford gave me, because you know I like things to happen and when you are like that, you start picking things that no one else is taking. And I remember Chris telling me once stop taking things that are in the floor. And I say, okay, unless they are part of your job as foreign director. So it's an activity far behind. You can't just try to re-engage members but don't take it and move it, because it's not your job and you're going to burn yourself. What happened a couple of times? Because you know it's very easy, since I was an architect no one is there, even this content to start writing on my own and that's time consuming. And being a foreign director is also being a project manager a project and project manager, because you own your foreign activities and you need to be able to learn and to manage all the different threats. You know this project, this is the leader, this is the activity. They are behind schedule, they are head schedule.
Speaker 4:Taking minutes I remember being in the architect to forum meetings, with around 12 activities going on at the same time and taking the minutes. And Mike Lambert told me once I have no idea how you do this. You are projecting, you are explaining, you are being the facilitator and you are taking minutes. And then, okay, I have two windows, I mean two windows in my Mac. One is projecting, the other one is where I'm writing, Okay, and you also have your brain cut in half. I have to do that because otherwise you will have you will have any meetings after the event. So it's, those kinds are more difficult. The special is to keep this boundary you know that you are not allowed to be against or with someone and to keep this middle ground.
Speaker 4:That is my view of the more challenging and also to learn to. To learn to listen to others, which is very difficult, especially for a person that is driven. You know, even if the person is saying some say that it's not the right thing, you need to wait for the person and to wait and see if there are more points and only when that happened to give you a point in every polite way. And that is not very easy. It takes self control Sometimes. You know it can be even a difficult conversation going on. You know people almost being rude against each other, so you need to be able to tell them okay, remember, we have a couple of headaches, please behave.
Speaker 4:Please and that is also part, a thought, part of the job for a forum director to learn to let them speak, but not in a point in which they are completely off topic or, even worse, being aggressive. It almost never happened. You know all our members are great on that. They're very smart people. They know how to discuss properly, with respect. But you know, whenever that has happened, the forum director needs to be the one putting more in there. And it can be. It may seem easy, but it's not.
Speaker 3:No, facilitating is definitely an art form, that's for sure.
Speaker 4:Yes, it is.
Speaker 3:Especially when, as you say, when people are drivers, it's hard to mediate the situation, but I'm sure you do it well.
Speaker 4:It's a try. I think it's and in a way I enjoy it. You know it's not easy, but whenever you have learned to do that, at the end I think the biggest satisfaction is when you finish a video that may have been difficult to send the actions and eventually things start to happen and you see publications going and you see people taking action and you see you're going on an event like this which has been so successful and you see people presenting and making reference to our standards and when you see our members standing for us because they become advocates, then I say it's worth Now. It's worth all the long days making minutes and trying to pursue consensus, which is difficult, and trying to move things ahead. It's really worth the effort when you see the final product and you see the benefit that is driving for the open group and for our members and for the community as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I guess it's year's worth of your work and other people's work as well. You want to see it do well, especially with how long you've spent on it Exactly.
Speaker 1:And continuing down the route of facilitation. How do you manage? Obviously, like in a room, you can have different personalities, different voices and different types of contributions. Do you find it's quite challenging at times making sure that everyone has their own time to speak, or even just challenging and voicing their opinions? Do you think that takes time in managing that? Or do you think it's simply about understanding your own style of communication in order to understand other people's style of communication, what they prefer, likes and dislikes?
Speaker 4:I think it's also challenging and it takes both. It's related with the way you communicate, but also how you listen to others, especially listening to others and that kind of. For example, you are in a meeting and there are seven people, seven members and only two of them are talking and they are monopolizing the conversation. So your job as a foreign director, or even as a product manager in my case, is to okay, what's your opinion, let the other people speak. And that happens also in a virtual environment, not only in a face-to-face. So you need to be sure that everybody in the meeting, even virtual face-to-face, is having an opinion, unless they prefer not to say it. So you learn to do that. And it's difficult because sometimes they are so passionate that they keep talking and talking and you need to find okay, we are off agenda or we need to learn from other people. Please raise your hands if you have a question.
Speaker 4:Also, you cannot take silence as an indicator of consensus.
Speaker 4:You need to be sure people is really in agreement and if that doesn't happen in the meeting because of different reasons, even if it is a face-to-face or a virtual one, if you sense that a member is not happy, and you learn when it is a virtual environment and it's not camera, you learn to recognize the tone of voice because you know your members.
Speaker 4:This person is not happy or is quiet, and usually is not quiet. Or if you learn a person like this, or doing all the things or leaving the room and at any moment, it means like they are not connected, probably they are not happy, they are not having an understanding or they don't agree. So if that happens, instead of a face-to-face like this one, you take the time to go in the coffee break and ask the person what's your view, do you agree or are you upset? Are you concerned about something? Sometimes it works and if it is a face-to-face or sorry, a virtual one, you need to either sense lack or now we have a slack back on those days to either have an email or even have a short call with the person and asking why are you so quiet? Are you happy? Are you in disagreement? What's your issue? And learning to understand that body language, tone of voice, is really difficult and again, along with being a mediator and facilitator, is another challenging thing for directors.
Speaker 3:Is that something you've taught yourself over the years, or have you always been quite good at reading people's behaviors?
Speaker 4:I think I learned here at the Open World I mean before joining the Open Group I think I was. I consider myself good at speaking with people and presenting and I'm not shy of taking a leadership in a meeting if no one else is going to do so. I had that treat since I was a kid. In a way I was born with that. But when I joined the Open before joining the Open Group I was not so good at listening or reading other people's behavior. I learned that in the Open Group.
Speaker 4:I remember taking a training on that, a very good one in Costa Rica, by the way. I sent the presentation to Patty because it may be interesting to harvest that now, but in that training was called Asserted Communication Skills and I learned in there that I happen to be my kind of personalities, that I like to control things. You know why? Because I like things to happen. So if I like to control things, being a front director is challenging because certain things are not under my control, like consensus, or a member has to deliver some piece of content and he did it. How can I control that? And neither I can push the person at all. I mean they are contributors, they do this in their spare time.
Speaker 4:I know that because I was a member, so that I learned in that training. I learned a lot. I remember even delivering that to the other front directors in one of the meetings in Boston. I think I would like to share this with you because I think it's quite helpful. I did that and everybody said, okay, this is quite interesting. So that training, but mostly my experience, is the one that has made me have developed this style or this skill that perhaps I have, but not that developed when I was a consultant. It was a different story, but now I think it's my use to the opening of how to master a little bit that.
Speaker 3:What would you? Say was more important or more valuable to you then the training you've taken or the experience you've gained?
Speaker 4:I think both the training is useful to give you knowledge and some advice or things that you may take with you in the world, but at the end is experience. It's like when you're learning a language you may take some courses or training or whatever, but you don't practice the language. You would forget the language, and it's the same with this. Today, my daily job is about that. Even though I'm now the project manager and Michelle is the front director, we both work together on that. Sometimes it's a little bit blurry, sometimes she's on vacation or away. I take the lead. Since I have been a front director for years, that comes natural. The facility, a meeting it comes natural and eventually it's interesting because that became something that you learn in your personal life.
Speaker 4:I remember when I was still living in Costa Rica and we put together this new commission in the condo, because pets were not allowed and I had a dog. So there were a group of people that we had pets and they said, okay, we need to do something in here because we cannot be hiding our pets. So we created some rules. The Amy became a former director of rules and policies for the condo and I offered to deliver the things. So people would even consult a lawyer for that. It was very formal. So we made the document and I made some slides and they said, okay, sonia, I think you should present this. Okay, and I presented the thing and it was a lot of opposition at the beginning. So we're a similar thing that we do here.
Speaker 4:But since I'm used to doing that, the difficult people because back then they were like half of the people probably left in half were against pets, the other one were pro pets. So and we needed voting for that and it was not a full consensus, but it was at least 60% and we made it. You know the vote, the rules were accepted and pets were allowed. And thinking about that, probably if I had not this experience, I may have perhaps present the thing or even made the rules again along with my other friends, but defending it in front of people probably would have been more challenging. So at the end you learn to apply that to your personal life, to influence others and without them knowing they are being ruled in a certain direction. You have to be here and slowly and the way that you realize it, you're there.
Speaker 1:So at the end.
Speaker 4:We made it. You know there was a proof and now you know I left Costa Rica a couple of years ago but I still have my place there. So that's still my place. It's rented and sometimes I will receive emails from my friends there. You know, due to the rules that we put together for pets, now we are allowed to walk our pets here and there's no more issues.
Speaker 4:So at the end we made something good and I defended that easily quoting because it was my experience with the open. It goes to the personal life sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it seems like you've been having to do a lot of defending of your ideas and what you want to persevere and what you're passionate about. But what have you had to defend yourself from during your career journey Do you mean personal, I guess? Just what challenges have you faced yourself while transitioning and being within this industry, in this field of people that you're surrounded by, and just the challenges that they have brought to you personally, maybe being as a woman, or just being from Costa Rica and working with different yeah, I think it's probably the biggest one in the professional field is the resistance to change.
Speaker 4:You know, it doesn't matter if you are in Costa Rica or Salvador or here in Europe. I learned that also working with the open group, because we work with people all around the globe. The issues are the same. We are humans and humans. If this glass is here, I don't want this to be here, because I have the help to move and I don't want to move. And there are people that are very open to change, to change it. Some of us are not.
Speaker 4:And when the person or persons that are not willing to change have power, it becomes even more difficult. And I had to face that, for example, when I was at the bank in Costa Rica trying to make it to pass architecture in there. I had a lot of that pushback at the beginning, especially because people were not having an understanding of the importance of this. Sadly, when I left the bank, I think it's not that the activity died, but now they are more IT, so it has to be someone in their pushing. I think probably that's the one that I have to say is more challenging In a personal basis.
Speaker 4:I think one of the beauties of being in Costa Rica is like I've never felt like a foreigner. I am a citizen by the way, I have both citizenship. But even before, I don't recall no one in Costa Rica making me feel like I was different because I was not born in there. And the third thing is I'm still Costa Rican. You have the habits and the way you're thinking. I lived there 23 years it's a lifetime, so I never felt that.
Speaker 4:And being a woman, that's challenging. And I have to say that the issue that being a woman was more for me in El Salvador because of Costa Rican culture is more open to different genders and way of thinking. In a way they're a little bit more advanced. Perhaps In El Salvador they are more conservative and less open for certain behaviors for women. So I remember being years ago when I was still a consultant at the bank in El Salvador, working with a guy who was the head of the accountant and finance office at the bank and I was in charge of the accountant's sister and this person he hated working with me because I was a woman. Only that's the only reason I thought why this guy is so aggressive, and so I stood for my idea you know, because I was right and I had the benefit of that, the company supporting me.
Speaker 4:You're a consultant. They cannot treat you bad Because if they do that, you need to let me know who. The project manager told me that the project Because you are a consultant, you're not an employee, a bank employee. So this guy was really aggressive. And then I was having a conversation with another lady that happened to work in the bank and she said it's not for you, it's not something personal, not even professional, it's because you're a woman. She said that's not. Yes, he doesn't like working with women. And I don't know how it is right now because, even though I live there, I work with the open group, so I work from home. So I'm not really that involved in today-to-day but my sense is there's still some of that's going on. But interesting is that, even though most in Costa Rica, I would say, there's an enterprise architect who tends to be, at least in the US and Europe, according to my experience, more like a feel for men, in Latin America it happens to be the opposite.
Speaker 3:You have to just stop for a second.
Speaker 2:Should I continue.
Speaker 4:You're there. That's strange. Okay, anyway, what was I was saying? I forgot the thought. I was talking about the enterprise architecture In Costa Rica. At least there are more women in the field and younger women like around 30s. I met a lady from Europe. She's great.
Speaker 4:The party was their members. They gave us a very good case study. They made an e-government in Uruguay using Togov. That was the case that she presented Another lady in Peru from the Banquian Peru, very smart lady. This lady in Costa Rica, which is the head of one of the biggest private banks over there, she's the IT leader. She's still the IT leaders. And there was another lady that was from Salvador. She was back then. Now she's in different positions. She was the IT leader for a big airline company called Avianca, which is from Colombia, and she was leading a team of architects. So it's interesting because we had the event in Mexico and Mexico also. When we had the event in Mexico and in Costa Rica years ago, I remember Virgil from the A&A telling me it's amazing how many women are in Latin America and in the US.
Speaker 4:It's mostly men, so that is an interesting fact. But still, being a woman is always more challenging. Sometimes it's a cultural thing, as I was saying, I cannot say being a woman has made me impossible to do things. I think I have never been in that position. To be harassed by someone is not that's not happened to me, to be honest but in general it's more challenging. For example, I was having a conversation with a colleague years ago I was already at the Ucran Group saying my son was still a minor.
Speaker 4:To me, traveling is challenging because it's not only making the suitcase and leaving my place and I have to be sure that there's food at the fridge, that the bills are paid, that my son's cover is going to take care of him, because I'm a single mom, the pets is going to take care of the pets and my son and he's sick, he has some medicine and someone taking care of him, of course, and even have a reference in Costa Rica, someone else okay in case, regardless of my son's name is Ricardo. He needs something, please. So it was not that easy because I'm a woman and there's no one at home taking care of that. Now that he's 22, you know, and I'm more relaxed. I gave him the car. He may be very happy with the car and he's taking care of expenses putting gas on the car, taking care of the pets, going to the supermarket, preparing his own food. So he's a grown up now, but it was different when he was growing up. So always being a woman is more challenging in that aspect, I would say.
Speaker 4:But in terms of job, for example here at the open group, I have never felt like a pushback because I'm a woman or because I'm from Latin America. Never it's been an advantage in any way, because when we have had events in Latin America I've been the one in the middle, you know, because it's not easy or no cheap to have translator. I remember being in Mexico in an event in Durham, being the translator in a panel because there were some speaking English speaking presenters and people represented. There were Spanish speakers. I remember me being in the middle making the translation. So I have never felt that at the open group that even being a woman would be a Latin.
Speaker 1:American person at all Switching gears slightly. Can you tell us a little bit about what lifelong learning means to you and how important continuous growth is within your career, so how you keep on learning, your learning style and how you approach just learning new things?
Speaker 4:I think like part of our job as staff, I think, is to take at least one training over the year related with our area sector D. So right now I'm taking MIT training. Really good, I would try to make this happen here because the idea is to apply that knowledge On my personal life. I was I like reading, I enjoy reading, so I tried to read not always, not all the time things from work, of course. I was a lot personal things. You know, stories that I like, but likely.
Speaker 1:Can you tell us a little bit about what lifelong learning means to you and how important continuous growth is within your career, so how you keep on learning, your learning style and, yeah, how you approach just learning new things?
Speaker 4:I think like part of our job as staff, I think, is to take at least one training over the year related with our area, sector D. So right now I'm taking MIT training. Really good, I would try to make this happen here because the idea is to apply that knowledge On my personal life. I was I like reading, I enjoy reading, so I tried to read not always, not all the time things from work, Of course. I was a lot personal things, you know, stories that I like but I also tried to keep on date with reading technical articles, especially now with digital transformation. This is a topic that every day is something new. So, for example, artificial intelligence is quite a topic, so I tried to be on top of that reading documentaries.
Speaker 4:Now, with all the options that we have streaming, you cannot say that you're behind because there's no knowledge you know, even including when I see an article that is interesting around digital transformation or also enterprise architecture, of course, I usually take a chance to read that and to learn, but especially to apply. What I have learned is perhaps the thing that and also I learned through my members, you know, because they are very smart people they are. Of course, they leave this day to day at the open room or job is more general. But, for example, we were in a very good case study on the Monday track and it was this very good case study from an insurance company and it was around digital transformation. It was really good. So I learned how they did it in the practical case. You know the steps they took, how they considered cultural change, data integration and all that. So we learned from our members as well.
Speaker 3:I wanted to ask this a while back, but what initially drew you to the technology field when you first started your career? Why did you first join that field?
Speaker 4:Oh, that's a very interesting question. Is why behind like 1985, 86, when I finished college I mean in Latin America college, college to the high school sorry, was high school. When I finished high school, to be honest, I wasn't sure what I was going to do and I love mathematics and physics, probably be an engineer. So starting majoring in civil engineering like building, buildings and construction.
Speaker 4:And I had a few months before starting university and back then it was this small computer that you can program in, something called basic. It was probably don't exist anymore. So remember being in my spare time making problems and my brother he's three years older than me he was already at the university. You're really good at that, you know. I like that. The computer is doing what I want. It's like a challenge. I want you to count from one to 10. He didn't count.
Speaker 4:So I spent hours and hours and then I took some training for hobby about programming and I started like and, the and the and the trainer. He happens to be a friend of mine that I had met when I was in high school, so he let me spend hours in the in the room with the computers. Back then we didn't even have personal ones and they were expensive. There were not. Even there were not personal things like this lot of. So I remember spending hours in the air when I started the university. My first year was fine because it's math and I was very good at math and physics. The second year I decided to start taking some. So so your matters related to my career, which is civil engineering, so I start taking them and in the first subject that I took, I think I'm lost here and may you understand this, because I like physics and math, but I don't like this. So I started getting very confused. I remember telling my brother we have a very good relationship till today.
Speaker 4:I don't know what to do if it lost. What's the matter? I'm not sure I like this and I always went one year. You haven't wasted anything. You're just starting your career. These are common subjects. Did you change your career now? You have not lost any more in your time.
Speaker 4:I wasn't working back then. My parents were paying for me, so I was really concerned because it was expensive for them. We were not a wealthy family. So anyway, I started and my brother said why don't you study to be an engineer? And if you are a computer engineer, what is that? Is that a career for that? Yes, a new one. Back then it was a new one, so I started. Oh, I love this.
Speaker 4:So I went to my parents and I'm going to change my career and they didn't understand. Understand back then what it is computer engineers or what is that. Now you better be an engineer. This is an engineer, but it's a different one. So I asked them okay, I'm going to change this. Are you willing to continue paying this for me even if I change? And it's like that I started. If you don't, I will get a job and I will do it. So you know, no, those go ahead change. So I started in that and I really loved it. You know I started like was a five year career. I didn't lose the first one because it was common math, mostly math.
Speaker 4:So that one, I realized that I like that when, I graduated in 1992, I started working in this first company and I really realized, okay, I can do this for a living. But then I was a programmer. You know the very basic, you start being basic, you don't have a big salary, you're just. I was 22, I wasn't still working in my thesis for having my, my title, my degree. So I started working in there and the the programming was around the electrical sector. It was my first industry and I learned very quickly about the industry, mostly because my dad worked for 40 years in that field and my brother was in that field, so it was kind of like a family thing. So I started working on that and I realized that I really like it. So I made the right choice. So I graduated.
Speaker 4:Then I I took, I started studying my business administration master degree, becoming a business manager. So I started studying that because it's not enough to have one career. And I also started in English. You know I had taken some English classes at the University of Berber, technical ones. So I decided to take full time at the American school in Salvador. Full time, three years, the whole day, saturdays, until I get the tuffle, all the thing. I love English, so get good grades.
Speaker 4:So anyway, but I was not speaking it, I was the issue. So then I started traveling because of working reasons. I was very lucky because I had been working with that electrical company for six months and I was sent to a conference out of the country and my brother told me there's people here that has been years in the company here. So I've been here six months and you're traveling now and I realized that I love traveling because it was my first traveling on my own, without my parents and in there remember that it was a place that English was spoken, not Spanish. I think he was trained in to battle. They speak English there and it was a Latin America conference, but in the place they speak English. So I realized that, okay, I'm good at this, you know, it's not only because I have taking classes, so I became the translator, become my colleges and the people at the hotel and at the airport and everything.
Speaker 4:So I say, okay, I need to start practicing English, because I was a book and I was very lucky because I started traveling and it was usually places where English was spoken. So it was lucky in that sense. But back a little bit more to your question. I decided to study because I love making programs and make the computer do what I wanted to do. I enjoyed that until I was a programmer. I was still a programmer when I was working at the bank and then when I moved to Costa Rica.
Speaker 4:I work for eight years. The first two years I was still a programmer. After that I started being a project manager so I gave a lift. So no more programming for me. I was the manager. But still I remember that I knew what had the code of the programs at the bank. So whenever one of my the members of the team will have any issues, I would say, just go to this code like this and this, and you can change this. How come you remember that by heart? Because I know that program. You know program is like a set of instructions that you follow and so I like that until I decided that it was a good time for me to to make a movement, but I enjoyed that for years being a program and you know you mentioned that your brother had gave you some advice when you were going through some tough times in schooling.
Speaker 2:Was there any other mentors that you had when you were first starting off on your career?
Speaker 4:okay, he was perhaps one of the major ones. I mean, and I will say still now, you know it's like we were just two of us, but we are very close. And let me be who else? Okay, this friend that I had had a very good friend when I was in high school, after he was my teacher at high school, the night we're out of high school we continue being friends, and he was the one that was teaching in this training, that I took informal training and he also told me the same.
Speaker 4:You know you're very good at this. You know you spend hours here. I mean, you don't even feel the time. So have you considered majoring in this? Say no, I'm probably going for engineering. Why? Because I'm good at math. I say, okay, but computer systems also have math. Really, yeah, okay, I think. Just a comment. But then when I decided to change my career, I'll call him and say you know, I may go into computer engineering. Good, it's a good decision for you. So that's that friend, I he's still my friend, by the way, he and his family, now probably those four of the major ones. After that, when I, my parents came to understand what computer system was, because about the 1990s, I mean they are.
Speaker 4:They were not young people by then. Now they are gone, unfortunately. But when they started to realize what computer was, they say, okay, my daughter, she's married, that we're very proud. At the beginning they didn't understand the change, but I think probably my brother and this friend were my major mentors and then through the career, of course, they're all with teachers. That motivates you to continue being moved.
Speaker 4:I remember having a very good math teacher at the university and we study a lot of math. I love math, but in a certain moment I started asking myself when in my life I'm going to use to mathematically prove that zero is equal to zero. You have this exercise. You have to use math axioms to prove that, and it was a whole page proving that zero is equal to zero. Say I did it, but what's the purpose? And then I asked this. He was a very good teacher and has a very high position of university and the math and department and say have a question for you. I was an instructor back then. I remember what's your question. You know I know math and happen to be very good at math. But why so so much math for us? I'm not going to be a mathematician, no, but being a computer person, even if you don't program, you learn the logical ways to solve problems. You're going to be able to make a program or to solve a problem in the computer area space if you don't have that logic. And math gives you that logic. That was one of the best answers I have received in my life. So I stopped complaining about so much math and testing and all that.
Speaker 4:And that is true whenever you're for a good programmer and even for a good modeler, enterprise architect, you need to have the logic in your head. I remember being once I was working at the video electrical company and it wasn't a new area. They were trying to put together this program for handling projects and no one was having able to program that. I remember being in a city with three people and the owner, the business owner, started like these are my requirements. So in my head I was already setting the logic hey, the problem is to do this, this, this, this, yes, exactly what we want.
Speaker 4:So in no programming yet no computer in mode, because you know when you start programming you program in a very specific language. The ones now I'm not familiar with them anymore, but anyway, it might be similar. But at the end you need to learn the logical steps. And it's the same whenever you are a modeler or enterprise architect. You need to have logic, to see the big picture and to be able to provide advice to your, to your boss or your consultant, to your customer. You need to be able to have this logic in your head. So that's why I learned with this mentor and you having a mathematical view of things will help you organize your thoughts. You know, probably you'll tell me I'm going to be a painter, probably you will need this. But if you're going into an area which is related with engineering, whatever engineering it is you need to be able to organize your thoughts, to be able to put your ideas in an organized way thank you, sonia, for joining our show.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure not only talking to you but learning more about your career, and it's been really fascinating just seeing your journey so far and you know lifelong learning and all the other bits of goodness. So thank you so much for coming on our show and we look forward to having you on again soon.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much okay, thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed this.
Speaker 1:Thank you and to our listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in again and we look forward to bringing you another episode soon happy listening stay safe.