Open Comments: S3 Ep.5 - Wisdom, Passion, and Lifelong Growth with Jesal Pankhania

Some ideas sound noble until real life tests them. Jesal Pankhania joins us to talk about what actually builds wisdom when you’re under pressure, out of your depth, or face-to-face with your own bad habits. Jesal is an implant dentist, a university clinical tutor, and an essentialist coach, and his work sits right where philosophy meets practice. We start with a provocative thread from his book Hard Road to Wisdom: vice can pave the way to virtue, not by excusing harmful choices, but by forcing honest learning that a “perfect” path often avoids.

We dig into lifelong learning as more than courses and credentials, and into the informal education system that shapes character in the gaps between formal lessons. Jesal shares a late-night story from India that reframes balance as something dynamic, like a cyclist leaning into corners. That insight unlocks a bigger point: even virtues can become vices when we overplay them, and the “prison of virtue” can look like arrogance, judgment, and rigidity.

From there, we get practical about growth and motivation: the difference between a struggle that strengthens you and one that drains you, why “enough support and enough challenge” matters, and how the comfort zone, learning zone, and panic zone show up when you’re building real skills. We also unpack discipline versus passion, how routines can turn robotic, and how habit tracking and simple rituals like meditation and gratitude can keep you grounded. Jesal closes with a north-star takeaway that stays with you: wisdom can take you far, but love is what you truly navigate by.

Learn more about Jesal's book here. 

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Welcome And Meet Jessel

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome back to Open Comments with me, Ash. Today we are joined by Jessel Pankania. Born and bred in the Midlands, UK, and married with two teenagers. Jessel has three working roles: implant dentist, university clinical tutor at the BAM School Dentistry, and as an essentialist coach helping people explore what matters most to them. He is a thinker, writer, and community-minded leader who lives at the intersection of philosophy and practice. Jessel explores themes like power, humility, devotion, and responsibility and aims for depth and clarity in his work. Whether reflecting on spiritual traditions, governance, or personal growth, he has a special interest in drawing out universal truths and making them practical. He is interested in exploring not just how we succeed, but who we become in the process. Thank you, Jessel, for joining us on open comments.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Thank you, Ash.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Pleasure to be here. Thank

Lifelong Learning Through Vice

SPEAKER_00 0:59

you. So to start off with, in your book, Hard Road to Wisdom, you explore how vice can pave the way to virtue. How does that idea connect to the concept of lifelong learning?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah, that's a good question. Um so yeah, lifelong learning, as as I'm sure you're aware, is a is a big part of well-being. So we have physical well-being, mental well-being, and lifelong learning is part of that. And yes, you could say that lifelong learning might include, you know, doing a degree or a diploma or master's or something like that. But actually, um, if we're not learning from maybe mistakes or learning um the deeper lessons, you know, how virtue plays out long term and how vice plays out long term, um, then you know, are we really learning? So as part of lifelong learning, yes, it's um it's key, it's central. It's I'd call it most essential. It's um it's uh at the core of learning, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

It's where wisdom lies. Thank you.

The Informal Education Of Life

SPEAKER_00 2:13

And do you see mistakes and vices as part of an informal education system that shapes who we become?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Yeah, good. So informal education system. That's an interesting way of just saying what we learn from life, isn't it? Informal education system. So let's if we look at what a formal education system gives us, it gives us like the skills to go and work in the world, um, it gives us the intellect to be able to navigate, you know, maybe jobs or um social hierarchy, shall we say. Um actually uh understanding virtue, vice, um, and things like that, that helps us navigate people, helps us navigate and even balance the head and the heart. Um like an informal education system is what we catch in between lessons, isn't it? Like you go at school, we went to maths, then we went to English, then we went to science. But what happens in the corridors, right? Which kids do we need to avoid, which kids do we need to like hang around with so we don't get maybe picked on, or which kids are better to hang around with and are more fun, you know. It's that's the informal bit, right? What's in between the formal? So um the informal actually forms the um inner self, I think. Again, I'm I'm gonna say that again, the inner essential self, the core self. Um, so yeah, that informal education is um it's the culture, it's the culture that we're in, and it develops

Curiosity And Better Processes

SPEAKER_01 3:47

our character.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

And you've immersed yourself in philosophy, yoga, and healthcare. What drives your hunger to keep on learning?

SPEAKER_01 3:54

What drives my hunger to keep on learning? Um, I think I just have a curiosity. I think it's just like an innate thing. I always try and look at things at how something could maybe work better. I'm very kind of strategic. Um and I'll look at okay, how can something be productive, effective, efficient, proficient? This is how I teach my students. Like they come day one and they can't even hold a drill, right? And then they've got to I've got to teach them how to drill a tooth. Um, and then I'm like, okay, well, let's just be productive first, let's do things correctly, and then from productive, we become effective and then efficient and then proficient. So it's kind of like an evolution. So I'm always looking at the world like that. Okay, how can we make things a little bit better? So that whether that's on the physical or metaphysical level, it's just I think it's just been innate within me. Um, so that that drives me then. That drives me.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Would you say as well on that note that you're very focus-driven in terms of also how you see process to process driven as well?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, making things more efficient is process. Um, I like to think of growth in in three ways. You've got up, outwards, and then down depth. When you we're getting broader, broader growth is like knowing more, being broad-minded, but then we've also got you know growing in height means people might define that as success in in the world, but then depth is is that growth as well. So um, yeah, I think that's the key thing because if you think about a tree, the analogy I always give is a tree is the deeper the roots are, the higher the tree can grow, right? So actually that growth is again, I'd say most important.

Healthy Struggle Versus Drain

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And moving on to staying motivated on the hard road, how do you distinguish between a struggle that's helping you grow versus one that's draining you?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, so yeah, again, the metaphor of the the butterfly comes into effect here. So when the caterpillar is turning into the butterfly, there needs to be a little bit of struggle for the wings to become strong so that the butterfly can fly eventually. Um, but if we kind of think about someone who's going to the gym and they've never been before, and you just put the weights right up to the max, it's demoralizing, isn't it? So we want to start small, small steps. Um, you know, enough support and enough challenge is the ideal kind of scenario for growth. Yes. Um, if we don't have enough challenge, you kind of just stay in the status quo and just stay in your comfort zone. Too much challenge and you demoralize and you you know don't want to go back again, you don't want to approach that. So um I think the right balance between that support and challenging you can scaffold your way up.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

And to stay on that question, how would you say you can assess balance, but also if the way in which you look at balance may change, how do you pivot and change that? That makes sense.

Balance Means Learning To Lean

SPEAKER_01 7:10

So is alright if I share a little story?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Of course, yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

It's about balance. So once I met this um yogi in in India, I remember it was like 11 o'clock at night, clear sky, there was a full moon out. I distinctly remember that. And he stopped me and he was talking about balance. Okay. And I was in my twenties, early twenties, and he was just and he was just saying, Okay, what do you need to balance in your life? And I was like, Yeah, you know, your relationships, your career, your education, your family life, you know, the classic things you need to balance. And then he kind of just held his hand up and just said, I bet you think balance is like this, and he just held his hand up straight. And I said, Well, yeah, that's that's balance. You know, he goes, Yeah, you're not leaning too far left, not leaning too far right. And I was like, Yeah, I suppose that that is what I feel like balance is, and then he said, No, but balance is like this, and he leaned his hand left and he said, And balance is like this, and he balanced he moved his hand to the right, and I was looking at him, and he said, It's like when life turns a corner. So he said, When you look at a cyclist, yes, if you look at a cyclist when they're turning the corner, they're leaning, and sometimes they're leaning a lot, but they're still balanced. So, this is where wisdom comes in, and the idea of virtue and vice, because actually overplaying some virtues can actually become vicious, it can actually turn into a vice. So, wisdom is actually knowing when to hold off and when to you know turn things on. So it's it's like that. Or let's say we're going through life and someone's ill and maybe terminally ill, so you're like, Well, everything else really needs to go on hold, and I need to lean towards spending time with this person, so actually, that's still balanced. So we might think we quantify it sometimes by time, how much time we're putting into everything, but actually, sometimes life makes us lean, but it but it is still balanced.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yes.

Discipline, Passion, And Purpose

SPEAKER_00 9:11

And what role does discipline play versus passion when it comes to long-term development?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

So discipline is obviously important, but discipline, if we're too stoic or if we're over-disciplined, we we can kind of lose heart. So, like when you were saying passion, you know, discipline and passion are you know a little bit, there's a bit of polarity there between discipline and passion. So passion is always like the heart. So when we become too disciplined, we can lose our heart. In the long term, discipline is required to kind of stay on track, have the right habits, and all that sort of stuff. But actually, if you're passionate about something, you don't actually need discipline. Because if you're if you have a passion, you like that means emotion, right? So you're you have the internal motion, you have the motivation, you don't necessarily have to cognitively say, right, I need to be disciplined. Normally, if we're having to be disciplined, it's because there are other things that are pulling us away, so we have to remain disciplined. But a strong passion, we wake up and we just do it. We don't even have to think about being disciplined. So it's automatic, yes. It's automatic, yeah. So passion actually overrides discipline. Discipline is there when we kind of either we run out of passion or or the passion just isn't there and we have to, you know, it's like the donkey and the carrot or the stick, right? That's discipline.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Would you say it's well, it kind of works. I like what you said there, it kind of works as um as a double-edged sword almost in terms of if you don't have passion, you may still have that discipline, but you're still following that structure, but you may not be passionate about what you do, right? As an example. So where you're doing, like, say a routine that you've done for years, you may have lost that passion along the way, but you're still going to do that routine because it feels safe, it feels comfortable, it's automatic, but you don't feel anything towards it anymore. So it's interesting that you can have both at the same time. One may, you know, um come into effect more or have more of a stronger presence, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing for you then, you know, as much as if as much as structure is good. If you don't have passion behind it, it's like, what is your purpose? What are you working towards? It just you may feel a bit empty inside, but you're still gonna um do that structure or do that routine because you're comfortable with it. You know, it's something that you've known for quite some time.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah, and it's that I mean, it is that metaphor of the tin man on um Wizard of Oz. Yes, right? He's looking for his heart, right? So what you've just described there is someone who's just doing something so monotonously, so robotically, and they've lost their motion, they've lost their emotion and passion, so they're looking for their heart. So it's like, okay, either we have to rekindle it or we have to think of a new passion, or sometimes like there's this idea of icky guy, like okay, you can find a job that has your passion as well, but sometimes that's not realistic. So sometimes you do do just have to do something robotically to have some utility in life and you know, make a bit of honey at work, yeah. Right. But then have some sort of passion that you do in the evenings or at the weekends, so you do have that balance between the disciplines and the passions.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah. I think also

Comfort Zone, Learning Zone, Panic

SPEAKER_00 12:38

stepping out of one's comfort zone and you know going through change can be not only daunting but very uncomfortable, but that can actually help us. So, for example, if we've, you know, um one of our routines isn't really serving us anymore, but we're doing it because it's automatic and we're comfortable, but then we're moving to something completely new and we're very out of our depth and we're trying it, but we're like, not really sure. Will I stick with it? But the more we do it, we feel more comfortable because if we're not used to something, but the more we practice, like I don't know, playing piano or playing guitar or I'm going down the musical route here, but it can be anything, right? Practice makes perfect as cheesy as it sounds, but I think that is definitely true.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah, so to reflect on that, that this is what I share with my students as well, dental students. Um, when especially when I'm teaching them a new procedure, right? So you've got think about concentric circles where the inner circle is the comfort zone, and then the next circle outside that is the learning zone, and the next circle outside that is the panic zone. Okay. So if we're in the comfort zone, we're not really learning anything. That's where certainty lies, right? But actually, we have to step out of our comfort zone, go into uncertainty, but not so far that we're in a panic state, maybe close to it, and sometimes we might get panicked. Oh, you know, I've never done this before, you know. But then you learn something in that. You might learn 50% of what you need to know, then you do it again, then you've got 75%, and then before you know it, you become proficient or you know, effective at it, and then your comfort zone has expanded by being in that situation, got yeah. So your comfort zone now is bigger and you can actually do more than you could before. Yes. Because you've stepped into the learning zone.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Do you think with that as well, that helps with awareness by opening your mind up a bit more as well? If something, you know, something's comfortable and you're going into that situation, whether it's like trying a new skill or um practicing something new, at first you might be hesitant because you're gonna think to yourself, or maybe I'm not gonna be very good, or it's gonna affect A, B, and C, or the people around me are gonna think that, you know, I'm this way, etc. etc. But by doing something as you say, you have more of awareness after, and just sitting in that in that little bit of uncomfortabless can actually help more as opposed to playing it a bit too safe. That I don't think that's always the case, um, but I think that can help.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, it's I kind of say this to my coaching clients: there's a difference between disease and dis-ease. Interesting, yes, okay, right. So, like what you're saying, we feel uneasy. Yes, we feel uneasy when we're doing something new, right? But doing it often and all that sort of stuff helps our competence, yes. So we're going from that unconscious, incompetent state, and then you said like awareness, yes. Oh, oh, I'm aware that I'm incompetent, and then you start working out what you can become more competent at, yes, and then you develop competence, yes. So it's like that, yeah. So it's all about awareness, yes, 100%. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

And how has your how pause and how has following your own path shaped your understanding of virtue and vice?

The Two Prisons Of Vice

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, so how has my own um understanding? Sorry, could you ask the question once more? So I just put my brain into gear. Thanks. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

And how has following your own path shaped your understanding of virtue and vice?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Okay, right. So I was brought up in a family which is very um spiritual, so we were given like spiritual ideals, shall we say? Um, you know, in Sanskrit, Dapa Sorcham Dayasatyam, which means Dapa means discipline or self-mastery, sorchum means like cleanliness, you know, clean mind, body, and words. Um daya means compassion, and then satyam means truthfulness. So, in in a sense, have been brought up with a very clean set of ideals, but actually, you know, you go through your teenage years, you go through a rebellious stage, you meet friends, you meet families that don't have these ideals, and actually it's sometimes a bit more fun. Yeah. And some of these vice, you know, they are they are fun um to a degree, obviously, if they're not malevolent. So, from if you're asking about my own life, it's been more on that cleaner side, but then there's a there's a risk. I say this in my book, Hard Road to Wisdom, that there are two prisons. There's the prison of vice itself, but there's a prison of virtue, because you can become self-righteous, because when you kind of everything's clean, you you're doing well, and then you can potentially judge others, yeah, and you think you're holier than thou. So that's also a psychic prison. That's also a of become your virtues, then become a vice because you develop arrogance. So, this is the type of thing that I've seen. Um, is that people who are you know living on the lighter side of life, they don't necessarily have these bad habits. We can sometimes judge uh too easily, too quickly. So, from my point of view, I have seen people succeed and then fail really badly, and actually I've then had to bring in that non-judgmental side, that compassionate side, and actually gone this person still has value, which is why I interviewed the people that I interviewed because I wanted to show that recovery is possible, yes, and that actually these people are probably more wise having gone through the struggles and then come back rather than me theoretically saying things, yes, let people speak about their struggles of you know, drug addiction, gambling, severe adversity, you know, gang problems, you know, crime, criminality, that sort of thing. And actually, when they speak, they speak from a different type of wisdom. And that's for me, that's more important.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Would you say as well, because it's coming from them directly, like it can be I wouldn't want to say necessarily easy, but say if you were to, you know, interview these um individuals in a way that you may say, like, this is what we want to get at the interview, this is what we're gonna share, as opposed to saying, right, please share your stories and it'll be as as they've said it almost. There's I think there's it's quite different because it's one of those where I think I may have mentioned this before, but vulnerability is obviously key. But when it's coming directly from them, because it's their own story, they can say it at their own pace, but also it just feels more, I think, natural. If you might if that's the best word to use, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, I think what I'd yeah, natural, definitely. Um I think they're realised words, that's what they are. Okay. Um, so there's knowledge, like you can know stats and you can know things like that, but if you've got a testimony, yes, someone that's what we're talking about, isn't it? Is someone's actual testimony. Uh, going back to Sanskrit and philosophy, which I love, jyan means knowledge, but then vigyan means realised knowledge. Okay. Knowledge that you have experienced to be true. So when someone speaks from that situation of what it feels like to actually, you know, have this crazy urge to gamble despite being in debt, and you're gonna use the family's life savings, when they speak about that, it's so real. And I think that's what you're saying, is is it's yeah, it's just real, it's raw.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yes, there's no filter on it. So, what I mean to say is with the stories that you know you've shared in this book and the interviews that you've conducted, it's so important for everyone for them to share their stories, which they have, but also as a reader, and I've read your book, and it's very fascinating, but to view their stories and experiences without um pre-thought or without pre-judgment, I think that's so important. You're getting into that book, you're reading the text for what it is, but also you're not going into it thinking, oh, this is a perception I have of that person, or I would never do that, because you're all gonna have your own judgments and feelings, but it's so important to go into it without judgment. And I think the way in which you've conducted these interviews in such a raw and earnest way, it's direct, it's earnest, as I've said, and also it's raw. And I think that's so important. So kudos to you on that part.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

No, I appreciate that. I appreciate uh that you've read it and you've felt like that. And it is supposed to be making. You and me a little bit uncomfortable. Yes. And we've almost got to be comfortable with the uncomfortable. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yeah.

unknown 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

I think that's what you're you're leaning towards, right? Yes. It's like, okay, let's let's go there. And sometimes we've got to be in that frame of mind. We've got to maybe centre ourselves to be able to, you know, listen to, or I suppose we're bearing witness, aren't we? We're bearing witness. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, we're just like, okay, we're we're gonna bear witness to this story, hold them with the non-judgmental attitude. Yes. Because in truth, anyone can fall victim to vice, is is what we need to conclude. And those that think, you know, those that think we're immune from anything pernicious like that are just in illusion. Yes. So that's the best antidote is is to actually learn from someone who's gone through it rather than having to go through it again, or sorry, having to go through it yourselves to then have to come out of it. Okay, learn from these other stories because that's where the wisdom is. Yeah.

Habits, Rituals, And Daily Grounding

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And continuing on with wisdom, purpose, and fulfillment, how can our listeners align their daily habits with their deeper purpose?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

So daily habits, yes. Um, so first of all, maybe defining what a deeper purpose is for someone would be key and essential. It might be like better physical health, if health, it might be better relationships, it might be improving social position. Um, so set that up as like the the deeper meaning or purpose, and then look at what the milestones are towards that. And then you I personally use a habit tracker. I have this little habit tracker, and um I've got to do a certain amount of uh sit-ups and make sure I've eaten a certain way. And I just do a little tick box, and then at the end of the month I give it to my kids and they work out the percentage, so it comes becomes like a bit of a game, and they can say, Oh, you got 40% on that one, or oh, you did well on that one, got 70%. So it becomes like a community-building thing where you know I put myself under the microscope, yes, and you know, oh, this month you didn't do so many press-ups, dad. So make it fun, you know, like like you were saying about the you you make things too robotic and you you lose the passion. Yes, but have some sort of way of tracking your milestones, celebrating your milestones as well. That's important, honouring the milestones, like okay. Well, I've got to here now, let me let me just honour that in some sort of way, um, and then you can then hopefully get to where you want to get to.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

And what daily or weekly rituals help you stay inspired and grounded?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So, from my tradition of bhakti yoga, we tend to wake up um supposed to traditionally wake up just before sunrise, but it's a bit different in in Britain where it changes so often. But wake up nice and early and do some meditation, some mantra meditation, and then some sort of uh gratitude. Um, symbol of gratitude for us would be you know, we light some incense, um one of the elements. So we've got earth, fire, water, something like that. We can for us, we have like a deity or a picture of um we have Krishna uh in our home, but and anyone can have whatever they feel represents the universe to them or something bigger, and then so every morning, I mean, I've been doing it continuously for over 20 years, just a little bit of incense and water or some flowers, just as a gratitude to say, okay, you've given me so much, and here's a small token of um my appreciation, and that just helps me feel connected, um, start my day like that um before all the chaos begins.

Wisdom, Love, And Final Advice

SPEAKER_00 26:09

And finally, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self about passion, perseverance, and wisdom, what would that advice be?

unknown 26:19

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

That's a nice question. Um at the so I might this might be a spoiler for you, sorry, but at the end of my book, I point out the fact that wisdom is like reaching the north pole, but love is the north star. So wisdom only takes us so far, yes, but love is actually what we need. So knowledge evolves into wisdom, and uh compassion, the that is a seed, and the fruit of that seed is love. So I would say that to my younger self because um, yeah, I don't know. I think maybe I was probably a bit too disciplined, maybe, or um, maybe had priorities mixed up. Um, but it all levels out in the end, hopefully, as long as you're introspective.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Thank you for joining us on open comments. It's been great to talk to you about connecting wisdom, passion, vice, and virtue. Now, before we end this episode, would you like to leave our listeners with any last words, feelings, or sentiments?

Book Plug And Closing

SPEAKER_01 27:33

So there's something my dad always used to say, he said, um, go as far as you can see, and when you get there, you'll see further. So if anyone wants to um get my book, uh, it's available on Amazon. It's Hard Road to Wisdom, uh, and I'm on LinkedIn, so Jessel Pancarnia, uh happy to uh have conversations with you around wisdom and how to develop it.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Perfect. Thank you so much once again, Jessel, for joining us on open comments. Stay safe and to all our listeners again, happy listening, and we'll catch you soon for the next episode. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Thank you.