Josh: [00:00:00] Hi 

Erin: everybody. What it do baby boo. 

Josh: Happy new year. Happy fucking new year. [00:01:00] 

Erin: New year, new you. 

Josh: No, but it's the new year of this calendar true. Whatever 

Erin: that means you're true. Yeah, I was reading something about How energetically like the new year doesn't actually really start. Yeah, why 

Josh: would it until spring spring?

Yeah, it's 

Erin: a lot more sense. Like we're still code 

Josh: December January look the same. Yeah, so I don't know what the hell's going I don't know 

Erin: people love an excuse. It's a 3d calendar. It's It's capitalism. Let's be real. For sure. They're trying to sell us shit. Here we are. Gym membership. But happy new 

Josh: year if you celebrate.

Yeah, 

Erin: not opposed to new year's resolutions. But I'm stoked for spring. Yeah, yeah, 

Josh: same. Wow, was this episode redonkulous? I'm so excited. Oh, it's so good. Y'all, I don't know if we could have picked. a better first episode of season two. It wasn't even intentional, but then we couldn't not. 

Erin: Yeah. Dr.

Catherine Clinton. She's. A baller. A baller. 

Josh: I love her. I know. Same. I know y'all. Erin was fan girling. I [00:02:00] know. It was hysterical. She was amp, she was prepping. I was like, whoa. Why don't you do this for every podcast? But nope. This is exclusively for Dr. Catherine 

Erin: Clinton. I listened to, I don't know, 2030 podcast of hers before recording that

She, when she showed me her, I felt like I knew she was gonna what she was gonna say at any given time. Well, 

Josh: yeah, that's exactly what I was about to say. Erin showed me her prep notes of questions, and then she told me how Dr. Catherine Clinton was going to respond, but. She surprised me. I was about to say, she didn't respond in any way you expected.

Well, 

Erin: I mean, we talked about things that I wanted to talk about, but there was more. She's incredible. I know. She's so smart. She's so in tune and in coherence, which you'll learn more about here in the episode. But, uh, yeah, you 

Josh: can't not be in coherence while listening to her. She's wonderful. Her voice is just so soft and smooth.

Erin: I will say if you have never explored this kind of topic of quantum biology, if that's like, a completely new term for you. It may warrant going back, listening to episode 29, where we talk about, structured water and [00:03:00] light and grounding and things like that. It may just give you a little, all of those.

Yeah. But of course, she breaks it down so beautifully. And she makes these like wildly complex, I mean, it's like quantum physics, concepts, but she boils it down to. An easily digestible form. 

Josh: Yeah. If I, if I can follow her, you can follow her. Totally. 

Erin: Yes. but I'm just very excited for this episode, especially like listen all the way through to the end because she takes it somewhere that I wasn't expecting it to go necessarily.

and I just think Especially in this particular time in space and history, you know, current events that are happening in the world right now. I think these conversations are so important, uh, and I want to just be spreading coherence far and wide.

Yeah. 

Josh: She did a little bit of a mic drop when we asked her what freedom looks like. Yeah. Yeah. I was not anticipating the response to be what it was, but yeah. she ended it on a 

Erin: good note. Yeah. So all that being said, listen all the way through. We love you guys. We're so excited. Happy 

Josh: episode one of season two.

Let's go. Love you [00:04:00] guys. Love you. Enjoy. 

Erin: Dr. Catherine Clinton, I guess I should first clarify, do you prefer Catherine or Dr. Clinton? Do you have a preference? Catherine's 

Dr. CC: perfect, yeah. 

Erin: We had money on that. I know, I was like, every doctor that I've gotten along with prefers their first name.

Yeah, but you did work hard for the that title. So I get it. We're excited to have you on and talk about all things quantum biology. I would love if you could first just kind of introduce yourself, who you are, where you are in the world, what you do and How you got 

Dr. CC: there. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. Thank you for [00:05:00] having me on. I'm excited to talk about one of our favorite subjects. This is going to be fun. I am a licensed naturopathic physician here in Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest. And I got my start in quantum biology when I was looking for better ways to heal. I was in my second year of naturopathic medical school and it was that initiation year where they tried to weed people out, right?

Really long hours, long clinic hours. Very strict attendance, if you're not there at 7 a. m., then it doesn't count, type of which, I'm not the best at so, um, Sounds like somebody else I know. 

Erin: I would have thought naturopathic school would be a little less than the conventional medical route, but it doesn't sound like that's the case, like a little less abusive.

Dr. CC: Yeah, no, I, it was really interesting when I went to go tour the [00:06:00] university they had a huge meditation tea wing. And I was like, Oh, this is wonderful. This is going to be wonderful. But I had graduated as a philosophy major in my undergrad, so I had to go back and get all of my, I started math 95, I had to get all my premed go back and do all the stuff that I had.

Had ignored as a philosophy major. And by the time I made it back, the beloved meditation T wing had turned into a research center, which is wonderful, right? You want research, but it was both would be not. 

Josh: Yeah, it was an example of what was to come. Yeah, 

Dr. CC: yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it was very rigorous.

And so it was kind of that proverbial sort straw that broke the camel's back. And I was diagnosed with two autoimmune conditions, ulcerative colitis and Hashimoto thyroiditis and Lyme disease and multiple GI infections. And I was in the [00:07:00] right place at the right time. I had so many modalities and teachers and instructors and physicians helping me get well.

And I was able to go back to school and see patients again and re enter the program. For those of us that have had chronic diseases, getting back to that productive member of society, while it's wonderful to go from debilitated, not able to function to, you know, being able to do the stuff you want to do.

It still wasn't the picture of health so I was looking for other ways to boost my health and I was studying mitochondrial function. It was something that was really helpful with the patients We were seeing in clinical rounds. It was new it was exciting So I was really going down the research rabbit holes there and the clinician I was working with she was actually my physician and she was who I was doing clinical rounds underneath.

She was pushing me to look at psychoneuroimmunology [00:08:00] and that's just a big word for where our Emotions and thoughts impact our immune system and our biology overall. And I was a little resistant. I was like, don't you have a different botanical, you know, an acupuncture treatment or even a pharmaceutical?

Like I just didn't want to look at how my reactions and thoughts might be playing into my inflammatory state. And of course they were right. And. the marriage of the two, I was reading a research article from Martin Picard and he was looking at how our meditative state our thoughts and emotion can impact mitochondrial function.

And I was like, wow, this is incredible. This opens up a whole new window, not to mention the research around light and our ability to capture light and use light. It was really something. I hadn't learned in school. Everything was really [00:09:00] naturopathic school is kind of like allopathic medical school, except you're looking for botanical herbal lifestyle solutions rather than pharmaceuticals.

And we sometimes use pharmaceuticals, but. basically you're looking for an alternative. And it was really chemical, mechanical solutions. And so this idea that there's something more out there was just absolutely fascinated. And that's where I entered and I've never really left the room of quantum biology.

Erin: We were saying before we hit record just how many paradigm shifts you have kind of instigated in my life in a good way. 

Josh: There's like a pre Katharine and post Katharine in Aaron's life. Yeah. And like a noticeable pre and post Katharine. 

Dr. CC: So 

Erin: I'd love to talk about and you already touched on this a bit, but kind of the paradigm shift or the, new framework that we're working within now understanding quantum and how it impacts [00:10:00] biology as opposed to this kind of what you call the this Newtonian view of biology that we've been working with historically.

So can you Explain a little bit of what that means. And just, the implications are vast, but I think it's helpful to have kind of that foundational understanding of the difference between the 

Dr. CC: two. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, when I start to talk about quantum biology, people get really excited and they're like, Oh, we throw everything else out.

No, we know classical physics. still works. The Newtonian model is still at play in our body. But what the dominant model that's being taught in schools and being practiced in our doctor's offices is this idea that there's a randomness. to our biology and life. There's this allosteric model where we have the key and receptor lock.

The keys are bumping around in a cell, randomly colliding with things [00:11:00] until they find their receptor unlock and then biological action happens. Now we know that part where the key goes into the receptor. And biological action happens is true, but it's the randomness that can't explain what's happening on a biological level, right?

So if we were to look at any one of our trillions of cells, we would see that each one is performing hundreds and thousands of tasks each second. Some researchers estimate it in the millions, right? So it's just this astronomical amount of action happening. Each cell, each second, and mathematically that just can't be accounted for with randomness with this collision sort of bumping into, I hope I find the receptor kind of model.

And so that's where quantum biology comes into play. It. allows for a much more [00:12:00] efficient much faster way for our biology to work. And it's really looking at quantum phenomenon in living systems. And so that means we're looking at quantum tunneling. We're looking at coherence entanglement, all of these things that play in our body.

And it's really the study of the impact of these really small quantum objects, quantum particles, like the flow of electrons in our body, the flow of protons the flow of photons. of light or phonons from sound and how they seem to initiate what we know to be that chemical mechanical model, right? That it isn't this randomness, it's this sea of sort of invisible action that is taking place and starting what we know to be true in our biology.

Erin: I love that description. Do you have six more 

Josh: [00:13:00] hours? 

Dr. CC: What? 

Josh: I love it. I like love you so much right now. I 

Erin: told you, I told you. I was getting so giddy. He's wow, you really like this person. Oh my goodness. 

Dr. CC: I'm 

Erin: I love you guys too. Thanks. We're in the same vibration.

So speaking of all of those, particles and the tiny quantum world that we're talking about, we own a bioenergetics company and I'm often trying to explain to people there's a bit of a mental hurdle, right? When we hear words like frequency and energy we start to feel like we're getting into the world of woo, which we are.

well accustomed with woo. It's just funny that bioenergetics is probably the least woo thing that we do. So talk to us a little bit about what those kind of words mean and how they can and do impact our 

Dr. CC: biology. Yeah, excellent. That's an excellent point because the same thing is true when I start to speak, I'm just, I'm talking with my book agent now and [00:14:00] he's like, no, it needs to be more woo.

And I'm like it's quite blue, but it allows for a lot of different things, but it's science and that's incredible. And so when we're talking about frequency. When we're talking about vibration, we're actually literally talking about the vibration, the oscillation, the movement of a certain object, right?

It can be a protein, it can be a cell membrane, it can be water the. example of a tuning fork, right? When we strike a tuning fork and another tuning fork of the same tune starts to resonate and sing, we don't say, Oh, that's magic. That's right. So that's really what is happening on a biological level.

And there's something called the resonance recognition model, which really looks at how proteins, enzymes, really small things in our [00:15:00] body. might use resonance to communicate. And so it isn't this, random bumping and hoping you'll find the right receptor. It is a energetic vibration that acts as a signal to attract other things of that same signal.

And it's just an absolutely beautiful model that helps explain what's happening on a biological level. And we see this with You know, I'll say protein probably a lot in this podcast. But proteins, Bruce Lipton really talked about and taught us how, you know, in our biology classes, we learned the nucleus of the cell is the brain, right?

It has the DNA, it's the driver, it's the one calling all the shots. But what Lipton showed us was The proteins embedded in that bilipid membrane of a cell are really what's driving [00:16:00] the action of the cell because they have a piece outside of the cell extracellularly where they can be influenced by the environment around them, the extracellular environment, and they are going into the cell.

So they really act sort of as this antenna or communication system where Information from the outside of the cell can go inside and vice versa. And so when we're talking about action, proteins are really where it's at, right? And so proteins cover enzymes, which are huge. Biologically speaking, there would be no life without enzymes, right?

So when I'm talking protein, it isn't your food kind of triangle of carbohydrates, fats, and proteins. It's this Really little factories of work that create action in our body at a small level. And that's where the action happens. 

The function comes from this very. small [00:17:00] nano sized protein embedded in a cell membrane. And so that's what we're talking about when we're talking about frequency, oscillation, resonance, we're talking about how vibration can change the function of that protein. sOmething that's commonly talked about in biology is that protein folding when you have a change in the structure of the protein then you have a change in biological action and There's a lot of research out there showing that change in function Can be initiated by resonance and it's a much more In depth explanation than just you know, oh well, it's randomness You know, it sort of reminds me of well, 97 percent of our DNA is just junk DNA.

We don't know what it does, so it's junk. Wow. Maybe not. Make you different now. 

Erin: yes, it's funny that we are tempted to keep thinking over and over again that nature kind of makes mistakes in some way. There's just [00:18:00] extra but it's just that we don't really know yet.

And I think it was you, maybe that I heard talking about Even in relation to The electron transport chain and then we have water as like this waste product and now we're learning that it's not a waste Like actually that's like the jewel there is this kind of structured water That is a little kind of highway for energy to be transmitted But actually, I think this is a good time to talk about structured water, if that's okay.

Because I think it's a very foundational part for people to understand what it is in the body and how it impacts 

Dr. CC: our biology as well. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so when we're talking about frequency we can be talking about the frequency of light the frequency of sound. any kind of frequency information, oscillatory vibratory information and I'm going to answer your question.

It just sounds like, Oh, 

Josh: please keep going. Yeah, 

Dr. CC: that vibratory frequency information can act on crystalline structures. And what do we mean by crystalline structures? We [00:19:00] mean that like a quartz crystal, The molecules in the crystal are aligned in a certain direction. And with a liquid crystal, you can put some kind of force on that.

Whether it's a mechanical pressure, whether it's light, whether it's sound, they just found, they just um, what would you say, observed sound waves in a crystal in a diamond. It's absolutely. Oh, that's incredible. I 

Josh: know. So 

Dr. CC: exciting. It's so cool. And so that crystal in nature allows that structure to uniformly accept that energy impulse, And when you're talking about a liquid crystal, not only can it accept that energy impulse, it can align and orient in a different way. It can kind of change, And what we're doing now, talking on our computer screen or watching our [00:20:00] TVs or our smartphones. Those are being powered by liquid crystalline technology where light hits those liquid crystals and they align in a certain way and create this beautiful image.

The same thing seems to be happening in our body with our liquid crystalline surfaces in the body, which would be. Our cell membranes, our DNA, our fascia and our fascia is connecting to every single structure in the body. And what's lining these things is also liquid crystalline in nature. And this structured water that you brought up is what's lining those things.

And this was theorized by some really incredible researchers, Nobel laureate Albert St. Georgi and Gilbert Ling and Emilio Delghice. But it wasn't until the early 2000s with Gerald Pollack and his team out of the [00:21:00] University of Washington, they actually identified this crystalline structured water and they were looking at Nafion and Nafion is a synthetic.

A hydrophilic surface. And by hydrophilic, that means water loving. So it doesn't repel water. It allows for that water to coalesce and sort of bond onto that outside edge. And he found that As one sheet of this crystalline water forms against a hydrophilic surface, it acts as a template for more sheets to form.

And what was creating more sheets of the structured water to form infrared energy. And I think it's a good time to say that the sun is the biggest source of infrared energy on our planet. We also create infrared energy inside of ourselves, in our fashion, in our mitochondria. But as that structured water forms and builds with infrared energy, [00:22:00] it is creating a negative charge.

And as that forms directly outside of that structured water zone or that crystalline water zone, Is a positive proton wire or proton rich zone. It's being called in the research. Hydrogen is kicked out and it forms this separation of charge between the negatively charged structured water and the positively charged proton zone.

And Pollack showed by putting an electrode in the negatively charged zone and one in the positively charged zone that separation of charge, just like a battery that we would use was enough to light an LED light bulb. Crazy. It's so wild. It's 

Erin: so cool. I know. When I learned that my mind just exploded.

Mine just exploded. There's so many implications here too. It's just yeah, it's hard to even wrap your head around it, 

Dr. CC: Yeah, absolutely. And so they're looking at Nafion. And so it's okay, cool. This could apply [00:23:00] to so many different things. We could use it for technology. It was this exclusion zone.

We could use it for desalination, all these different things. But then he started. Researching hydrophilic surfaces in living structures, in plants, in collagen, right? That fascial network that I just mentioned that connects to every structure in the body. And he found the same thing. Those hydrophilic surfaces within us start to build that structured water zone and that positively charged zone creating, what I call the water battery within us.

And so you have a completely new mode of energy production and communication in the body via this crystalline structured water. It's just mind blowing. So it's saying it is, 

Erin: And so you mentioned a couple things with sunlight but there are. Several ways that we can kind of assist our body in structuring the [00:24:00] water.

Is that right? 

Dr. CC: Yeah, Absolutely. I mean from oh geez so many different roads, right? Getting sunlight is a major one because it's a big source of infrared energy and we want it to be safe sun, right? So if we're getting sun damage, we're actually damaging that collagen network that I just talked about.

And that inhibits our ability to create structured water in that zone to communicate as this highway within the body, right? So we're talking about safe sun exposure and that looks like, I know you guys didn't ask about this, but I'll just. 

Josh: Yeah. There's no apologies ever. You can just keep talking.

We're just going to just be stoked. Yeah. 

Dr. CC: I just want to let people know that we have this idea. You know, I'm here in the Pacific Northwest and it is cloudy and gray and probably will be till March. You can [00:25:00] tell by looking at me, I'm not the dark skin out in the sun all the time. But Person.

So what I do to get safe sun is I start by getting that springtime sun exposure, getting that am sun exposure where there's way less chance of me getting skin damage, but I can build up that ability to be in the sun. And so when we're talking about getting sunlight and getting exposure to sun and infrared energy.

I'm not talking about going to the beach at high noon and getting the sunburn, right? That's can be detrimental to what we're talking about. I'm talking about fostering that relationship with the sun and when it does go behind these gray clouds, I keep looking out the windows here.

When it does disappear for late fall through early spring. What we do is we get infrared energy in other ways. Saunas are a great way. I don't have a [00:26:00] sauna, so I create a little sauna in my bathroom. Awesome. I'll turn on the shower for 30 seconds, really hot, and get it steamy. And then we're on a well too, so I have to be really conscious of my water consumption.

So I will fill the. The tub up with this much water, this much. It is not one of those like Calgon, take me away, but I've got my water heater turned up so that I can make it warm enough. And I flip around actually in there. So I'm laying, normal. And then I flip on my On my belly and on my elbows so that I'm getting that infrared energy from the the warm water and the air in the bathroom is warm. Sometimes if it's really cold, I'll put a towel underneath the crack in the door so there's no escaping of the warm air, introduction of cooler air, and that's enough to get a good [00:27:00] sweat going. , I can really increase my body temperature just with.

That introduction of infrared energy adding a warm beverage, a warm tea, you know, we kind of call it a soup and stew season over here. We have a lot of warm food, warm beverages, warming spices to increase that infrared energy movement. Movement is a great one. Sitting fireside is something that we.

Evolved with over millennia as humans to increase that infrared energy in the wintertime, right? So there's, there are a lot of ways to increase our infrared energy that aren't these amazing, really expensive saunas, right? Yeah, I'm not against them. Oh, if you guys want to give me one. Also, Josh, did you 

Erin: notice that she said soup, babe?

I did. [00:28:00] Josh is anti soup and I'm very pro soup in the 

Josh: winter. On our podcast, we may have had a brief moment where before Rudy and bioenergetics and before I got sick by trade, I'm. What's called a UX designer, user experience designer. So I kind of filter life through how good user experiences can be in suit for me just isn't one of those with a beard and you're slurping.

And so everyone has now given me a hard time because The world knows that soup isn't my number one source 

Erin: of food, but 

Josh: now I love it. So there we go. Along all of these concepts, the science is incredibly complex. Even just in the past 20 minutes, that's been proven, but a lot of the applications are incredibly practical.

Aaron and I talk a lot with our clients. Most clients that come to Rudy, we typically are seeing them at rock bottom. They're really sick. And often times, the foundation isn't set. And a lot of the complex [00:29:00] science that offers practical Applications or solutions like what we're talking about isn't set yet.

And so when we talk to them about those, it almost feels too easy and it makes it feel like it wouldn't work. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you approach the conversation in that way not necessarily proving that it would work, but helping people receive it on a more logical level? 

Dr. CC: Yeah, Absolutely. So when I'm speaking with people I take a lot of time in those first few visits to really just inundate them with the science so that they're just like, Whoa, this is complex. This is researched. This is a lot, right? And so I'm like I said inundating them with the science with the research with the concept but the takeaway that I'm asking them to do is you know align with the rhythm of the Sun get out in nature get some grounding get some [00:30:00] seasonal input depending on whatever the season is right and so the Checklist that I'm giving them so to speak or the prescription is not Fancy, right?

So I have to do my job educating them on the sort of fancy research and the complexity of the research and how our biology works. So I try to wow them with look at how amazing this is and look at how complex. is, and what a rich fabric of communication and interactions are happening in our body.

And here's how you need to start dialing it in. And I, I'm not adverse to Supplements at all. That's something that I use as well. And, in some of the people that I've seen, they're really sick, like myself in school. If I hadn't been given steroids for that little bit, I don't know if I would have recovered.

Steroids [00:31:00] long term are not a good solution. But to put a pause on the it. that sort of hysterical positive feedback loop that happens with inflammation. It can be really helpful. I'm talking really short term, right. But I'm not opposed to. whatever tool is going to work, but the foundation are really these relationships.

And that's what I see with my patients. I give them a lot of information, a lot of science, try to wow them and into this understanding. Understanding of how our body works. I also share How my healing worked so that they understand like I have some understanding of this I understand the frustration of not feeling well for years and not having doctors listen and all of this, right?

So I try to hold space for them while wowing them with this research and then You know, what I see happen is the same [00:32:00] thing that was happening to me as I learned this information like 20 years ago, this checklist, right? Okay, I got to get out in the sun and okay, I got a ground and this sort of like chore list, right?

But what happened was it opened up this door of relationship with the world around me. So the rising of the sun now is something that Gives me a sense of gratitude. It's a relationship. I'm happy to see her. Yes. Yes. Yeah I'm happy to see her. I feel a sense of belonging and safety because she's there.

And the rhythm, or maybe she's a he, but 

Josh: whatever. There's no duality in this universe, so it could be whatever you want 

Erin: it to be. I think technically sun is ascribed to the masculine and moon is the 

Dr. CC: feminine. It 

Josh: could be whatever you want. 

Dr. CC: Yeah. I know. I know it is ascribed that way, but let it be a she for 

Erin: you.

Yes. 

Dr. CC: But I sometimes [00:33:00] change it around. But anyway, that relationship with that. Sun gives me a sense of safety. Same with my relationship with the ground and the earth, right? Being able wherever I'm at to go find a patch of dirt or soil or grass or rocks or sand and find a sense of belonging, like an embrace, right?

Because so many, I really have never, ever not seen this. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Is that lack of safety, right? You're in that sympathetic fight or flight. You're not, or dissociative, you know, next step back. You just. There's no sense of safety or belonging. And in this modern day life, there's so many of us living in unsafe relationships or families or workplaces or societies.

You look at what's happening now [00:34:00] on a global level, it really doesn't make us feel safe. And that's a huge obstacle to healing and health and being able to get that sense. Of safety and belonging in the natural world, in the rhythm of the sun, in the rising of the moon, in a patch of grass or the trunk of a tree.

It's just absolutely life changing, I would say. Yeah. 

Josh: you are speaking. 

Erin: Yes. It's because I've listened to every podcast she's ever made. So we speak like 

Josh: this. Oh my goodness. We're, we are hugging trees and sitting on the ground and you just romanticized it in the best way possible.

Erin: Yeah, I know. I love that concept of the relationship too, because like you said the lack of safety, in anyone with chronic illness, whether that contributed to the chronic illness or it cropped up because of the chronic illness, probably both, but it's got to be addressed because I'm sure you're familiar with the cell danger [00:35:00] response and this concept of the mitochondria sensing essentially safety within the body.

And so if it doesn't, we get stuck in that. danger response and our bodies can't go beyond that to heal. But also looking from a relationship perspective, because I think not every client I work with, but I would say maybe 80 percent or so have a lot of kind of perfectionistic tendencies to them.

I don't know if that I'm, I think it's a component as well that leads people to become, burned out and sick, but to kind of mix that checklist in their head about all the things they got to do to heal. Because let's be honest the wellness world is overwhelming. There are so many tools and modalities and we like, we're one, I get it.

We're another, somebody advertising to people to, we want to help you heal. It comes from a very authentic place, but it's just, there's so many out there that kind of taking away the checklist. List approach, and more so leaning into this relationship to foster safety within and in communication with the environment.

I think it's just so beautiful [00:36:00] and 

Dr. CC: needed. Yeah, absolutely. And the tools are wonderful, right? There's wonderful tools out there. That's not to say that, negate that or downplay that. But that foundational relationship that we have with the world around us, that Is the safety signal, right? That's what we evolved with over millennia to tell our body.

It's safe. One of my favorite studies and this is a weird thing to get so excited about, but it's so exciting to me. They did a study with infants and they were looking at the microbiome and the change that happens with trauma. And so in adults, they had done this a lot, right? And you can see this predictable shift in the gut microbiome after trauma.

And they looked at babies in the NICU that had to be separated from their mothers because of medical necessity, They were not separated. separating them to do this study, And they took stool samples to [00:37:00] look at their gut microbiome and they saw that predictable shift in the gut microbiome that happens with trauma.

And they reproduce this in an animal model. And they gave Omega threes and they put that in the breast milk that was being given. And the shift in the microbiome went back to a normal, non traumatized gut microbiome. They were not back with their mothers. They were probably, I would say, almost definitely still feeling traumatized.

Right. Like that. happened while they were still separated. It wasn't like the fish oils were like, Oh, now you're safe. And they were happy little babies and didn't need their moms anymore. No, they were probably still experiencing, I would say that trauma, but that introduction of something that we have evolved with again, over millennia we, Grew up to speak as [00:38:00] humanity on waterways eating Seafoods eating algaes eating sea plants eating things that contain Omega 3 fatty acids and so when that was introduced into the diet, it was like oh the safety signal And that kind of, to me the idea that we've really walked away from so many of our safety signals, from our light environment, our sound environment, our nutritional environment, our communal environment being able to sit around and, talk story around a fire and drum and say, seeing and, all of those things we've really walked away from because modern life doesn't provide as much space for that.

It doesn't that isn't the encouragement of modern life. And so when you look at it that way, you see that. We're just inundated with these danger signals of modern life. And if we can [00:39:00] start to put back some of those safety signals, then that sense of safety, that cell danger response, you, you mentioned before that state of homeostasis is much closer and healing and health is much closer as well.

Erin: that's beautiful. And I also just love how all these concepts under the umbrella of quantum biology, it's like it's the research is new and recent but it's always pointing us back to what the ancient, people and what shamans have been telling us for millennia. It's almost like kind of laughable that, why didn't we know?

We did know this, actually, we've just forgotten. especially I just love you. how people like you to bring that sense of humility to these conversations because I've heard other conversations of people, regurgitating this new research as if they've found the new right way or they have, ego gets kind of tied into it all.

But it's man, we, the shamans and the ancient people have been [00:40:00] telling us, forever. And here we are just because we have now science behind it. We're on board. 

Dr. CC: yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Every year I do a summit a free summit for people to learn more about quantum biology.

And I have researchers and scientists and, but I also really try to balance it with indigenous healers shamans. People that have been carrying this tradition forever so that we remember this isn't just the latest and greatest thing that we're seeing under a microscope.

This was the product of indigenous wisdom for ever, And I try to be really mindful of that because. How ridiculous is it of me to say I've discovered that being in nature or, having community drumming by the fire, you know,

 so yeah. And that's something that's exciting to me when you look at science, right? Cause [00:41:00] we look at the scientific revolution and with that they discarded all of the faith based and really at that time it was Christianity, right? They just. Discarded that faith based sort of mechanism of action, so to speak.

And they discarded that ancient indigenous knowing, right? If you didn't see it under a microscope, it didn't exist or it wasn't true. That was the truth. Like we're the humans were at the top of the pyramid. We're supposed to go out and extract the truth from the world around us. And. To have science now coming full circle back to an appreciation and a validation of what those peoples were always saying is really exciting to me.

I shared something on social media and it was this new technique they were using to see quantum entanglement in real time. So usually it takes a while to see quantum [00:42:00] entanglement. It can take days or weeks, right? When you're measuring it in the lab. And these people were looking at it through new technology, able to see it within seconds or minutes which is just mind blowing, so crazy.

And then they put that technology and they put that phenomenon of entanglement through a filter of a yin yang. And a lot of people looked at the research and they were like, Oh, that's what a quantum entanglement looks like. It looks like a yin yang. No, it was a total filter that they use to produce that image.

The exciting thing is not only are we able to see that at such fast time in real time, but these quantum physicists decided to use a yin yang. I 

Erin: love it. Because they get it, I feel like the people who start to understand the interconnectedness and all the just. Whatever you want to call them, [00:43:00] synchronicities, it's like we're all the same thing somehow.

We're all fractals of the same thing. As soon as they get it, whether or not they're researchers or shaman or whoever. It does kind of lend itself to, I don't know, being more open to the mystic parts of life, right, like the mysticism and the wonder rather than trying to explain every little thing 

Dr. CC: Yeah. And when we talk about like coherence or the observer effect, it really begs the question, are we meant to know it all or are we supposed to have an appreciation for it, right? And I think you can guess where I live. No need to say it. Yeah, and appreciation is well overdue.

But my hubris isn't as high to expect that we'll get it all right. Yeah. 

Erin: I'm gonna be thinking about that for a while. You said. Are we meant to know it all or are we meant to appreciate it all? Yeah. I love that. That's a good one for you. I know. I tend to really want to know it all, Dr.

Katherine. 

Dr. CC: Me [00:44:00] too. Oh, me too. uh, Someone the other day was saying we were talking about Phones and screen time. And they spend a lot of time on social media. And I was like, I was telling them how I get in and out of social media, right? Like I've got my checklist, I'm in and out, I do my thing.

And they were like what, when you do scroll, what do you do? I'm like, I am researching. I am going down research rabbit holes. It's exciting. I want to know it all. But I don't think I will. I just want to know what's out there. Yeah. 

Josh: Yeah. Yeah. That's Aaron. Zoe, our daughter and I, Aaron will like have headphones in listening to some quantum physics podcast 

Erin: about the song of the cell.

It's like a 16 hour audio book. That's what I'm currently working through. It's really 

Josh: dense, but Zoe and I'll be like moms in her other universe, like learning about something completely out of this world. 

Dr. CC: Oh, that's beautiful. 

Josh: I love that one. Yeah. Okay. So This question's slightly [00:45:00] selfish partially because of my story.

I'm hoping that listeners resonate with this because they're going through similar, at least experiences that I've had when I was completely bedridden. And then now to where I am today, a lot of what changed the course of my healing was the idea of meditations and affirmations, which then. Led into spirituality in a space that I didn't even really know existed that then turned into starting to have experiences with nature or feeling energies or I felt something as soon as you came on and I could feel our vibrations I can sense that and not necessarily understand it but like you're saying very much appreciate Experiencing all of that is new and exciting, but also slightly terrifying.

I'd be curious. Though, if there are words for it in the quantum space with the research that you do and just the Perspective that you have on how those thoughts and beliefs inform our biology. 

Dr. CC: [00:46:00] Oh, yeah Absolutely when we're talking about thoughts and beliefs, I mean we can take it from a bunch of different levels, So like psychoneuroimmunology is looking at a bunch of different things. It's looking at chemical release, right? So if I have a thought of gratitude or love that will release certain neurotransmitters and chemicals in the body, and that has like this ripple effect, We can take it from a quantum coherence perspective where those thoughts and emotions can Cohere different things.

And the HeartMath Institute is really, yeah, right. They're big fans. Same here. Same here. I love what they're doing and they're looking at how the heart and the brain can. Cohere. And coherence is really the idea that two or more things are resonating at the same level, the same frequency. They're communicating seamlessly, [00:47:00] working together seamlessly.

And the opposite of that, when your heart and your brain are in coherence, you're innervated in that frontal lobe, you're thinking calm, rationally making decisions. And that coherence ripples out to other systems. And This is something that the opposite also holds true. . So our brain and our heart are neurologically connected mostly through that vagus nerve, And when we are in the lack of coherence or in a incoherence state, we are inner innovating that hind brain, the amygdalas that. fight or flight fear response, and that has a different ripple effect on our organs and our systems in the body. And so the coherence of different thoughts and emotions have a Impact on our electromagnetic field.

And so when you're talking about quantum biology and the [00:48:00] biofield, a lot of people take the biofield to mean that electromagnetic field, that electromagnetic frequency and how there can be communication and entrainment and communication between two different fields, like the head and the heart, or like our coherence with someone else's magnetic field or electromagnetic fields.

Now, I think you can take it to an even finer level if you talk about how Thoughts create inelastic collisions of molecules in the neurons. And that creates a frequency of its own that can travel throughout the body. And remember, we talked about proteins in cell membranes, enzymes, all of these things, being able to resonate and communicate via vibration.

So I think there's. all kinds of different ways we could look at it. And I think that there's something that we [00:49:00] can't measure. I think that biofield science is often talked about the electromagnetic field or frequency, but it's also something more. It can't just be boiled down to that. And that's where we get into what is it, right?

That zero point field is it, I, and that, that's a really fun conversation because most 

Josh: of our conversations 

Erin: recently, yes. Oh, 

Dr. CC: you guys are so fun. 

Josh: For everyone listening, welcome to our dinner conversations. Yeah. 

Erin: Yeah. If you would have asked us 10 years ago, we'd be talking about this stuff. I probably would have laughed at you, but you know, it's fun this wild world of mystery and quantum and yeah.

So on the topic of coherence versus chaos, I love this topic. I know you just, I think you just recently had a summit on this, didn't you coherence or maybe you were a part of it one, maybe 

Dr. CC: I was a part of one that was put on [00:50:00] by Dr.

Roland McCrady of the Hartman Institute and cool. Dr. Christine Schaffner. Yeah, it was amazing. Yeah 

Erin: I just think it's a very important topic at the present, moment in time and history. And we can talk about it from personal perspective. Like I can generate coherence within my body to benefit my health and my biology.

But I think, in a lot of ways throughout the cosmos, we see like the macro and the micro kind of mirroring one another, if that makes sense. So what's happening in here happens throughout the world, right? And the cosmos even and I probably because I'm listening to this Song of the Cell book, and he was talking about the One of the scientists, or I think in the 1800s, Dr.

Virchow, Virchow, Virchow, but how, yes, and his research in the cell and he saw how, the, essentially the health of the cell kind of dictated the health of the body to some degree. And he was seeing this mimicked in society too, like the health of the individual citizen or [00:51:00] all the members of a society, their health impacts the health of the whole, the society, the culture.

And so it really. Pushed him to be kind of, a proponent of social change and justice and, he kind of went against the rhetoric of the time. And so I'm just curious to hear how coherence applies kind of on a grander scale, just in light of what's happening in the world right now. Like you said, it's hard to feel safe in the world.

It's hard to feel like we matter or can make a difference right now in the world. So how do you 

Dr. CC: look at that? Yeah, absolutely. I would say that, I like to always start with the research because It can kind of get people on board with the ideas, right? And so we've talked about that idea of heart coherence and having that heart and brain be in a coherent state and how that affects our biology.

What we didn't talk about is that state of coherence can entrain with other people. So you can have group coherence, right?[00:52:00] That's something that the HeartMath Institute has also researched to a great degree, and there's research out there showing that when you have a coherent group, it can affect the community at large, right?

And especially now I think that, Maybe five, six years ago, I did a lot of activism. I did a lot of organizing rallies and marches and protests. And that is one avenue of action. But the more I did that, I'm Thank you. Realize the more I was just doing that one set of action, that one linear progression of movement.

And it didn't really speak to coherence, right? And so when we're talking about group coherence and the idea that, there was research out there showing that when you took a group of seasoned. meditation practitioners. And they did this in New [00:53:00] York when the rates of crime were really high.

And they took the, this group of seasoned practitioners and had them meditate. And they Tried to get rid of all the confounding factors that would be in something like that would influence violent crimes, right? heat You know so many different things, right? Yeah, and what they found was this strong correlation between a decrease in those violent crimes when those practitioners were meditating And they did this.

Oh, that makes me so giddy. I know. That's incredible. It's so incredible. And they did this in the Middle East during war. Um, And they saw the same thing, the same correlation with a decrease in violent wartime activity when, at the same time as these seasoned practitioners were meditating, and then they [00:54:00] added.

More people to the group, and they saw a bigger decrease in those violent. I have so many goose bumps, right? 

Erin: Why are we not I don't know filling the tanks with meditators? That's what we need. Oh, my gosh. 

Josh: That's crazy. I feel along your points. I'm not meaning to derail, but Joe Dispenza has a, we call him Daddy Joe in our household

So I almost old daddy Joe just said Daddy Joe, and realized that you wouldn't have known what I was talking about. But good old Daddy Joe has so much research about when people come together, on a measurable scale , we're able to now see the impact that has. And so what you're saying, just reconfirms that the impact that has like I've done meditations in groups and I go places all it will be like in a completely different space and yeah, it's why well was unexplainable to me. I would just be like, wow, the energy here is crazy. Being able to [00:55:00] understand the power that's within that then together how much that amplifies We can make really huge impacts and not only in the healing space Although we're talking about healing in general, but this can trickle down generations And I think that's a really important conversation that we need to continue to have 

Dr. CC: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more because when we start to work on that internal coherence, it ripples out to our community, but it ripples down to our offspring.

I think we're at like 21 generations now, right? Where our stress responses can be epigenetically transferred. Yeah. when we're talking about ways to affect a global situation that we are thousands of miles from the idea. And I'm not saying that taking action is wrong at all. What I'm saying [00:56:00] is if we can take that action in a state of coherence, then not only are we doing something proactive, with a measurable result, I called my Congress person or I, like I did this thing.

But we are creating a state of peace that will make our resilience higher, both right now and in the future and in future generations. So these changes that we want to see in the world around us. aren't this, trying to push a boulder up a mountain, right? I, my ability to stop something right now on the global front is quite low.

I just don't have that power. I can take action and I should, I can do things. But my ability to press the stop button doesn't really exist. Right. So for me to take action in a state of coherence, and it doesn't mean that I can't feel angry. [00:57:00] It doesn't mean that I can't feel sorrow and the devastation of loss.

It means that I'm not. Working from right there. I'm not drawing my energy from that. I am experiencing that emotion and keeping that coherence so that I don't have to take such a hit, right? I've talked a little bit about how I was What you would call an activist before, and it was so draining and it was really not good for my health and my kids would come with me and if we had done it from a state of coherence, if we had done this with that in mind, which was not what everyone else had in mind, It would have been a much different outcome.

And I think that if we can keep that idea of working in coherence and that the energy patterns in our body truly matter, and if we want to make a [00:58:00] difference in the world, not only do we need to have that coherence because like we just talked about, it does ripple out, but also It breeds a resilience.

And over the last few months, I've seen such an tick in aggression in my interactions, right? People very aggressive about heart coherence, right? Just I just couldn't, I can't really explain it except to say that there is this sort of global coherence. And what I notice is when I can be in that state of coherence and talk with them, and most of this is online, right?

So it's, Keyboard talking, but if I can take that coherence and bring it to the conversation, the whole dynamic changes, right? These people that used to be so angry with me now just last week are sending heart emojis and so glad [00:59:00] we're on the same page and it's like It's just such a wonderful thing to see and it doesn't mean that we need to be on the same page it means that We can have differences of opinion.

We can have very strong emotions. But when we have a state of coherence, when we have that frequency to be able to be in a coherent conversation, like this is very coherent, right? Like I'm listening to you guys. You listen to me. We're thinking of things. We're excited and anticipating it's this flow.

And we've been in other conversations, right? Where you kind of leave saying, I didn't even really get my. Point across because no one would let me, right. It was totally incoherent when we bring that coherence. It doesn't mean that we leave everything aside. It doesn't mean everything's love and light. We can have those big feelings and emotions and differences of agreement, but the conversations look completely different. The [01:00:00] outcome is completely different. And I think that's also the power of coherence. 

Josh: I mean,

I know Aaron's a fangirl.

I know that you're her hero. I mean, I Follow you and I keep track of you, but I didn't know how incredible you were. I did. Yeah. Holy cannoli. 

Erin: So good. I think these conversations are just so important to be having. I want to have dinner with you. I know. Yeah. Can we come 

Josh: to work? I'm going to come cook you dinner.

Dr. CC: Yeah. Absolutely. Maybe I'll make you some soup. 

Josh: I Will happily drink it with you. I'm just 

Erin: kidding. I love it. Love 

Josh: it. So as we close with all of our guests, we ask not, I was going to say a simple question. It can sometimes not be a simple question. But we'd love to hear what freedom looks like to you.

In any way, it could be for you personally or what you're working on, but. We'd love to hear what freedom is to you. 

Dr. CC: I think [01:01:00] freedom I think, I'll bring it back to this idea of coherence, And in a wave, right? So as a collective, they're separate molecules of water in that wave, right?

But they're completing this collective action together. So for me, freedom doesn't mean that I'm completely separate and able to do what I want. It means that I can maintain my individuality, my sense of self. I can have my own beliefs. I can have my own goals, my own missions, my own trajectory.

But I can also do that while maintaining a part of the bigger collective, whether that's the world around me, whether that's the My community. If you had asked me 20 years ago or 25 years ago, that young Catherine would be like, freedom is like anarchy and [01:02:00] it's me against the world type of thing.

Now I think that Freedom to me means that I'm able to be myself, make my own decisions, have that freedom, but have that freedom within a bigger collective. And I think that if we moved towards a freedom like that, our world would look a lot different. And yeah. To me that's really the definition of freedom that I would like to see more.

That's incredible. 

Erin: Beautiful. So beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing all of your wisdom and knowledge and coherence. We're deeply grateful for you. 

Dr. CC: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. It's just been a pleasure. It's been good medicine, right? Talking with you guys.

Like a good coherent. A good 

Erin: pot of soup. A good coherent pot of stew. 

Josh: All right, guys. You can win on [01:03:00] this one. 

Erin: Oh, goodness. Well, I hope you have a beautiful weekend. And yeah, hopefully we'll get to have more conversations down the road. 

Dr. CC: Yeah, absolutely. I thank you so much for having me on and I look forward to part two.

Cool. Awesome. You're the 

Erin: best. Thanks for 

Josh: listening, guys. Thanks, everybody. Stay open. 

Erin: Stay open. Bye. 

Dr. CC: You're