How to Scale Your Property Empire with Kim Opzsala of KoMo Properties

In this episode of Girls in Property, Athena Dobson sits down with the brilliant Kim from KoMo Properties to explore her inspiring journey into the world of property investment. Kim shares how she got started with her very first deal – a bold move into a multi-unit block – and talks candidly about the lessons she’s learned along the way. From Kim’s, legal know-how and risk management to the real-life challenges of dealing with tenants, Kim opens up about the realities behind the business.

The conversation flows into the importance of education, both formal and through hands-on experience, as well as the huge value of surrounding yourself with the right network. Athena and Kim also touch on the need to pause and celebrate your wins, even while juggling the everyday demands of running a business.

They dive into the complexities of managing HMOs and what the upcoming Renters' Rights Bill could mean for landlords. Kim also shares insights on building a solid brand, why consistently reinvesting in your business matters, and how working with a life partner brings both challenges and rewards. Throughout the episode, there’s a clear message about staying flexible, prepared, and open to growth in an industry that’s always evolving.

Packed with practical advice, honest reflections, and plenty of motivation, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to build or scale their property journey with purpose and confidence.

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Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:02

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. Happy Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whichever day you are listening from. I hope you're all having a wonderful, wonderful day. What are you up to? I've had loads of DMs recently in a wonderful way. You're all telling me where you're listening from, tuning in from. We've had some people in the UK, we've had some people from abroad. We've had some people on their way to work, taking the kids to school. One person was cleaning out their service accommodation unit listening to the podcast. So whatever you are doing, please, please message me to let me know where you are tuning in from. My DMs are always, always open. So in today's episode, I have been wanting to get this person on the podcast for some time. Has anyone ever had it before where you meet lots of people at networking events and you see them and you know them and you know exactly who it is, but because you're networking and because there's so many people that are there and the day is just so crazy. you never actually get time to sit down and meet with the person and actually get to know them and have a conversation with them. So it's very sort of like a flying visit almost. So I'm so excited to actually have a full conversation with this person today and just show you all how amazing she is. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce Kim from Como Properties. Hey Kim. Hi, thank you for having me on. I'm an avid listener. So yeah, super excited to be here today. Yay, I love that. And we said before the podcast, you were like, no, I'm not going to listen to my episode. I never listen back to my episodes or any sort of video recordings. I just hate watching myself back. Yeah. the first time I ever did it, I was like, no, no, definitely not. But I said to you, was like, I need to actually listen to quite a few of them. And I said I had a lash appointment next week. So I was like, yep, I've got some time. I can just lie there for an hour and just listen to the podcast. Just binge it, exactly. So Kim, some people are going to know you who listen to this podcast and sort of see you around networking and doing extraordinary things within the industry. You of course were speaking recently at the NRLA event, which was brilliant. I'm winning lots and lots of different types of awards as well in such a fabulous way. So I'm actually going to give you the microphone on the stage to introduce yourself, please. Tell everybody a bit about you, how you actually got into property in your journey and what you're doing now and what you're looking forward to in the future. Thank you. So, so yeah, so I'm Kim, I'm one half of Como Properties, which as you say, it's an award winning property investment company that I co founded back in 2016 with my husband Mike. We have been investing ever since then. I wear quite a few different hats personally, so as well as being a co founder of Como Properties. I'm also a lawyer, so I'm a corporate, major's and acquisitions lawyer. So I specialize in buying and selling businesses, joint ventures, commercial contracts. And I am actually still practicing. And I've been a lawyer for almost 13 years now and have won awards for the legal work, the deals that I have done. I'm also a mom, which is also one of my important hats. have a five year old. And I'm also a non-executive director. So I have been on the boards of various charities for the past eight years. Giving back is really important to me. And it's just great that I can use my legal and now property skills to help not-for-profit charities that I'm passionate about. And how did we get into property? So back in 2016, we bought our first property, but rewinding a couple of years before that, I was a relatively newly qualified lawyer, working at the largest law firm in the world at the time. So I was working crazy hours, know, a 100 hour week wasn't unusual. And it was just really stressful. It was impacting my health physically and mentally, just working long hours. Mike's a chef, so he was working nights, weekends, I was working 24 seven. And we just didn't have a great quality of life. And we were just like, is this it? Is this what we want, you know, for the next 40 odd years until retirement? And we knew that wasn't what we wanted. We have actually had some other businesses here and there, but we read, which I've called out, which I always hate saying because it's very cliche, but yeah, it's a fantastic book. And it completely changed our mindset on investment, on debt. We were savers. We saved every penny. We overpaid our mortgage until reading that book. And we just thought we could be using that money and getting that money to work for us. And off the back of that, we actually became angel investors. We invested with someone who was an active property investor in the HMO world. And it was kind of like an earn and learn, but that didn't really exist back then, but it was similar. We got to see their projects. We got to see how they stack deals, how they furnish their HMOs. We learned a lot. And off the back of that earn and learn, we then bought our first investment property in 2016, which was actually a multi-unit freehold. So it was three flats in one block. And then in 2018, we discovered HMOs, the cashflow. was our key focus to get me out of my job and HMO is just a fantastic strategy for that and we've invested in HMOs ever since. We are looking to diversify now with the renters rights bill and things we definitely need to diversify a little bit but yeah we love HMOs and we've been doing it exclusively since then. I love that, what a story. You see, this is so interesting. And of course, like, I think I knew this, but I actually didn't remember this, which is such a wonderful thing, is of course, you've got a law background, don't you? So how do you think that that's really like, I always talk to people about transferable skills. So honestly, Kim, I don't know if you ever have this, but sometimes I get people that come to me, and then like, I know nothing about property. I know nothing about this. don't know how to do this. I'm like, okay, well, what do you know? And then they tell me they have a law degree and that they do law. And I'm like, right. So you have a lot of transferable skills. how has, please encourage people and the listeners, because I know a few lawyers who listen to this. How has law really helped you within your property journey? Yeah, I mean, it's you're absolutely right. And you meet people with all sorts of backgrounds that think, you know, their background won't help them in in property. But every you know, every job has some transferable skills that I'm sure are useful for me with law. It's understanding the legalities of you know, contracts, we've done some quite quirky deals like purchase lease options, which a lot of people might not understand or be confident negotiating. I think my legal background means that I'm able to explain complicated legal things in hopefully an easy way, which means we're able to negotiate very good deals. We do a lot of direct to vendor. So I do a lot of negotiations direct with the sellers. And I definitely think that legal side of negotiating contracts day in, day out definitely helps. Yeah, just understanding the legal side of property. I'm not a property lawyer, but I, you know, I understand that I did six months of it for my training. Yeah, I think the negotiation and understanding the legal, the technicalities are the main ones. maybe like what could go wrong as well. It's like, you know, what actually could go wrong. and I would actually say that's one thing that is a hindrance, I think, is my legal background in that I am very, very risk averse. And that means that, you know, sometimes what might be a deal, a really good deal to someone wouldn't be a good deal for me. And I know we've had a few deals that we've seen go on to someone else and we're like, we should have done that deal. But because of the risk averseness in terms of like the planning risk, for example. I'm just sort of like, no, I prefer to walk away from a deal than take unnecessary risk. And that does mean that we probably could have grown a lot quicker if I wasn't so risk averse. I see it as a benefit, but I can also see how it's a hindrance sometimes. Hmm. No, it's so interesting. I love that. And I know so many people like you who, you know, can, can, but I do see it as a positive thing because, you know, better to be safe than sorry sometimes. And I always say this also, Kim, I see so many people rushing in property. I see all these people who feel like, oh, I'm not going quick enough. Have you ever had people say that to you? They're like, Athena, I don't feel I'm going quick enough. And I always say to them, quick enough for who? Who, who? Quick enough for who? Like, Property is not a fast strategy. It isn't. It's a long game. So when you're telling me, Kim, like, well, we could have done this, don't we? It's like, yeah, but you could have, but actually you also couldn't have done it. And you'd also be like, ha, told you so. See, my slow, my risk averse nature actually saved us from making that. And we've had a couple of people recently have come forward to me going, Athena, do you think I should be doing this deal? And I'm like, and I asked them questions and. And actually what comes to it is that they're just rushing. They're rushing. And I'm like, don't rush, like slow and steady. I always use the tortoise in the hair. They're like, yeah, but other people are doing this. And I'm like, yeah, a lot of people go fast very quickly in the wrong direction and lose a lot of money and never tell anyone. Don't tell anyone. So just go nice and steady. Go at your own pace is what I always say. And then build from there. I think, you know, social media is a massive part of that. You see people doing, you know, these amazing deals, you know, diversifying, and you kind of think, should we be doing that? And in the early days, I was very, they call it shiny penny, don't they? Where you see someone doing something, I want to do that now, I want to do that. And actually, I think you're right, stick to one strategy. Do it at your own pace and for your own risk appetite. I'm very cautious about asking people, you know, is this a good deal? If it's good for me, I'll do it. you know, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks because, you know, I do see people doing fantastic deals, but they're not risk averse. I, you know, I look at them and I think, as in look at the deals and I think, I don't think I would do that. And then it turns out to be fantastic, but I would lose sleep over it. It'd be stressful. you know, that's not where I got into property. So yeah, definitely agree with your advice of kind of stay in your own lane, isn't it? And do things at a pace that suits you. I love that. And the other thing that really resonated with me is when you were telling the story about, love the fact that your husband was a chef, like yes to the chefs. That is handy. Yes. Yes. Like Steve does all, well, I say all, I'm much better now, much better. I do do cook, but Steve does the majority of the good cooking, let's say. And yeah, it's so handy. It is so, handy. And One thing I can really, really relate to Kim is when you said that, you you were working all hours, you know, your husband was working all hours and me and Steve were exactly the same. We were coming home, we were, we were travel agents, travel consultants working in different shops. So he was working in Bournemouth and I was working in Winchester and we'd come home and I reckon we'd each get home at like nine o'clock at night and then look at each other and go, okay, what should we eat? Okay. One of us has got to go to the shop now to go and get the food to then eat. We were then eating by what? Half nine, 10. to then look at each other and then literally be like, I'm exhausted, fall asleep on the couch and go to bed and start again the next day. It was one of the most unhealthiest lifestyles. And with that then, you just sort of go, is this it? Is this our relationship? Is this like what the rest of our lives look like? And actually COVID was what actually then drew us out of it really is because we obviously, we lost it all. We lost it all in COVID. And I often wonder to myself, because we got... Yeah, accelerated it. accelerator. But I completely relate to that, I really do. And for anyone else out there who feels that way, and you're like, girls, that is literally me, like we see you, we hear you, there is always ways to do different things, but there is no fast... And to do it, there is no fast solution. It's just that you've got to just take your time, do it all in the right way, but then have the guts and then just go for it. So therefore, Kim, with your first one, and I love this idea that you did an earn and learn, as you said, fantastic, fantastic idea, because we can't really do much without the education, can we? There's a lot to know which we're gonna come on to. and to learn first of all how others are doing it and to take notes and to see the good, the bad, the ugly. Definitely. Do you think you would recommend, if people can, obviously depending on their resources available, would you recommend and earn and learn? How would you recommend people go about that chapter for them? I think for us it was transformational. think I should put my hands up. I've done a lot of education. You know, I've spent tens of thousands on education. I do really advocate for education. I know there's a lot of free information out there, but personally, I want to learn the detail. I want to be able to ask questions. I want to scrutinise. So for me, education is fantastic. The great thing with earn and learn is the practical side. There's only so much theory. you can learn, you need the practical, the seeing the live deals, being able to ask someone, you know, any questions that come up really throughout a project. And we offer Earn and Learn now because we know how helpful it is for people who are getting into property. And even for people that are looking to diversify, we have investors who are, you know, they have buy to let portfolio, they want to get into HMOs and they invest on an Earn and Learn with us to learn. That's strategy. So yeah, I think it's a fantastic way to learn. It gives you both sides, the education and the practical side. Yeah. No, I love that. And you know, I hear you also when you're saying there's only so much theory that you can actually learn. It's about actually doing it. It's kind of like I often say to people, it's like doing the theory test for a driving test, right? You can write all the theory that you want, but until you're actually behind the wheel of a car, you don't know how to drive that car. Do you know what I mean? That's the analogy that I use. I'm like, you need to get behind the steering wheel and you need to just put your foot on the pedal and just go. and see what happens. Absolutely. And then so then what what I would love to hear from you, because I think it's such a fantastic thing that you did was you're like, right, we've done our own learning, we're going, and then you find a block of flats like a multi use and you're like, yep, that's the first one that we want to do. How did that come around? Is that that I feel like you jumped with two feet right in at the deep end. We absolutely did. And you mentioned disasters earlier and there's definitely a story in this one. yeah, we bought this block of flats. wanted, our main focus for property was cash flow. We wanted a high cash flowing portfolio. So it was either HMOs, which we didn't know much about other than on the earn and learn we'd seen them. But the pot of cash that we had in the area that we lived. just wouldn't work. So we were looking more in the Midlands where I'm originally from. We didn't like the idea of managing a HMO from afar. So we started looking at multi-unit blocks and we just found this block. We went to see it and it was chaos. know, they had an open viewing, you know, where, there was just 30 people walking around these flats. They weren't in great condition at all. and not the best tenants. And we actually bought that block, fully tenanted the owner. You know, he was adamant that he wanted to sell with the tenants, he didn't want the hassle of evictions. So we took that on and quite quickly realized the true extent of the existing tenants. We had, I'll say alleged drug dealers in one of the flats. So, you know, the sorts of people coming and going from the property. So we had an eviction there. Well, we had two evictions in the end. And as we evicted the tenants, we then refurbished the flat. So we did them one by one. So it was great because we had cashflow from day one. Not great that we had to then manage a couple of the flats, the tenants out. But then when we refurbished them, we got much higher rents and obviously more favorable tenants. And we still hold that property today, you know, almost nine years ago now. We've got two of the flats that are let to an emergency accommodation provider. And one is let to a professional tenant. So it cash flows really well. It's a fantastic investment for your first one, but it was, it was a baptism of fire. You know, I can't call it anything else. was a huge learning curve. Yeah, just out of curiosity. So when you go through sort of the purchasing process then, when you've got to go and buy the three units, does it all come under one, like one purchase, one contract, or do you have to buy, yeah, it's all just one basically. Okay. a freehold. It was effectively, you know, the huge Victorian houses. It had been split into three flats many, many years ago. So it's still on one title, but split into three different flats. had their own postcodes, their own, you know, gas electrics. So yeah. Yeah, understood, definitely. And then I've had to go through eviction before and I've had to go through the process where tenants don't pay rent, cause havoc. It is really so stressful, Kim. I mean, for you, how long did the process actually take, realistically so that people know, to actually get them out? We were actually really fortunate. So the first, the drug dealer flat, we upped the rents. The rents were so low. So we upped the rents and they weren't happy. So they, and then we sort of, we effectively served the section 21 on them and they left. They said, we're leaving anyway. We're not paying these high rents. So they left straight away. The other one, we served notice and I think it was about six weeks. and that tenant just left, they literally up and left, clothes, food in the fridge, they just disappeared effectively, which isn't great, but also we didn't have to go through a court process and we never have had to. Touch wood, we've been really fortunate with, in HMO tenants as well, we've never had to serve a Section 21. It's one of my big fears because... it can take months and obviously with the renters rights bill coming in it's only going to take longer. So tenant selection has just become so important now I think. we'll definitely come on to that conversation. I think it's a conversation that everybody wants to have as well. I remember when we had to get rid of one of our tenants and do know what makes me laugh to this day? And it really does. So I like to think that I'm quite an intuitive person, Kim. I like to think I am and I did all the viewings. I met every single person that went into the HMOs. I was like, and I distinctly remember distinctly going, I really like this guy. This guy's gonna bring his own Hoover. This guy took his shoes off at the door when he came to view the property. I really like him. He seems really solid, really sound guy. And I remember actually thinking that. Like sometimes I have no opinion. I'm just like, yeah, they fit the bill. They're great. I had an actual opinion about this guy. Anyway, I'd say a month in, two months in, no issues, lovely, no issues at all. Suddenly he completely changed. His whole personality literally changed. no. He knew the system. So anytime you try to say something to him, he'd go, no, you can't do that because of this section and this and this. And actually I know that at the moment the courts have got about an eight month sort of backlog. So I'm just gonna sit here for eight months basically and not pay you rent and not do anything about it. And you can't do it and you can't do anything about it. Yeah. Now I'd be like, mate, sit down. at the time, I was still quite new and fresh. And so I was like, you know. And that was a really sad, sad thing because I realized that all we were trying to do was house people in beautiful accommodation and help people. Yeah. and I know that and I know that actually it's a good thing that we're having all these legislations coming in. But at the same time, there are not so great tenants out there as well. And I just think, God guys, like, come on. So I've had it from the other side where literally we didn't get paid rent for like 10 months. And it was just such a pain. And then, and then when we tried to backlog when he actually left, we tried to get all of the arrears back. Yeah. lot. And it's tough because you want to have these conversations. You don't want to scare people because I don't want to scare people. I also have the most amazing tenants who literally are just the most wonderful people in the world who send me like cards and Christmas presents. Like they're wonderful. But it's important to know the... Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it was and I know how fortunate we were that they just left because like you say, if people know the system, they know they can hold on for months and months and months. And I think we probably on both flats and months rent down. When they said they were leaving, they effectively didn't pay after that, but they did leave. So yeah, no, it was... But you're right, it's so important to share these things because... I often see people say, buying tenants, is fantastic. You know, the cash flow from day one. But there's only so much due diligence you can do on those existing tenants. Our due diligence was, they been served all of their statutory paperwork? You know, that was the extent of the due diligence. You can't ask, what are they like? What do they do? And so, you know, quite quickly after completion, it transpired the type of tenants that were there. And yes, they were paying their rent. So it would never have come up in the questions. You don't ask, are they drug dealers? Exactly. could you imagine? Fair enough, fair enough. I love this. And so you then took this multi-use on, these block of flats. So when you actually then turn around, what was the turnaround time scale? it months? How long did it take you? It was months and months because what we did, we did it one by one with the flats. So the first flat was probably within three months they left, we refurbished. That was the largest, it was like a two bed duplex. So that was quite quick. And then it was probably within six months of that, we managed to gain possession of the other flat and did the same. And then actually the final flat, the tenant had been there I think for 10 years before we bought it. So we had been there a long time, didn't want us to refurbish or anything. And to be honest, he was a great tenant. Unfortunately, during COVID, he passed away. So it was five, six years later that we actually ended up refurbishing that flat just because we got that flat back, but through very unfortunate circumstances. So yeah, so it was a long time until the whole block was complete. Gosh, that's so sad. Honestly, that's always sad when you go through those moments because you're like, my God, this person lived in your home effectively or their home that you own. So, wow, my goodness. So for example, you would have refurbed enough the rent on the other ones. Did you just keep the rent the same with the chap that was in the flat? we put it up a little bit because I think the rent had been the same for 10 years or so, you know, it was so low. So we put it up a little bit and then annually we do a nominal increase just to get it in line. But it's still very low rent. But as I say, we didn't refurbish the property, so we didn't feel like we could, you know, increase the rent hugely until after. Yeah. Till after, makes sense, definitely. So, Kim, do you know what? I love listening to that. Like usually I do my celebrations a lot earlier on, but I was so fascinated to hear like why you had decided to go straight in on a block, and I love the stories on that. So now, Kim, could you please tell me, in terms of like celebrations on this podcast, because I love doing it, I think it's so important for us all to celebrate and champion each other's wins as well. So it could be personal, professional, what are you celebrating at the moment? Well, I have two. It was my birthday last week and it's quite a big birthday. So, I have been celebrating for the past week my birthday with family, with friends. So that has been fantastic. I'm a big birthday person. just, you know, I love birthdays. And so yeah, that, but in the business, we actually had a revaluation of a project that we bought. And it will be our first unicorn deal, which for those who don't know, will pull all of our money out when the refinance goes through. So yeah, it's been a long project, a lot of ups and downs, but it's paid off in the end. Yeah. that is fantastic news. I love that. Yay. Congratulations. my God. And I'm also a massive fan of birthdays as well. Some people are like, I don't really celebrate my birthday. I'm like, hell no. I want a month for my birthday. Steve's very aware I take birthdays very seriously. No, I love it. Why not? Yes, absolutely. So yes, I'm so glad that you took that week. to celebrate your whole birthday. So brilliant stuff. My goodness, what am I celebrating at the moment? Do you know what, Kim? It's so funny, because I obviously do this every week. So you would know that I should be coming all the time with celebrations, but sometimes life just sort of molds into one, doesn't it? And it's so busy. However, what I am celebrating at the moment is this week when we're recording the podcast with you. I basically have recognized something with me in terms of there comes a moment when You, know, when you start your business, you sort of go through like a transitional period of your life, right? I've got to, I've got to just do the business and do all the bits and, and get everything going. But there comes a moment when you just feel something in you where you're like, right, a shift is coming. I now need to shift and level up. And one of the things that's driving me absolutely bonkers at the moment is my website. It's literally driving me bonkers because I designed and created that website myself. You know, I was like, I need to put a website out. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. weirdest thing happened to me the other day, right? This woman out of nowhere who lives in the UK, but she does like branding stuff, et cetera. Yeah. emailed me completely out of blue. I've never spoken to this woman before. She's like, hi Athena. And she emailed me, she goes, hi Athena, I'm an avid listener of your podcast. I love you, I love you on socials, I love everything you're about. She says, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but your website is not a reflection of you at all. Hahaha! She's like, she did, put these emojis. She's like, I looked at your website and I just didn't get it. And I literally responded to her and I was like, you and me both, girl. So what was really funny in terms of the universe was two days earlier, I had already agreed and signed up with a rebranding specialist who specializes in rebranding and website design. So what I'm celebrating is I'm going to go into the shoot, the actual branding shoot. for that this Thursday for the new website. So we've been speaking about vision boards, mood boards, we've been speaking to the photographer about the vision that we want, how we want it to come across. We've been talking about the type of copy that I want on it, my pillars about what I actually want to represent. And the reason I'm able to do this is because obviously anytime you have a business, it's all about like reinvesting into the business again and again. And it's not about the quick wins and taking the money from the business and then going and buying like a Lamborghini or a Louis Vuitton. For me, it's about taking that money that I've earned, hard earned money and reinvesting it back into the business to then level up the business and go again. So a new website guys is coming. I hate it as well. New photos are coming because I can't look at the same photos that are used for me being promoted. I just, I'm like, my God, I need new photos. And I've changed as well. So the person who's going to be doing the shoot for me, I called her. It was the first person who ever did my original photos and I said, are you free to take the photos again? And she's like, Athena, I can't wait. Like you're gonna be a different person on this camera. So I'm really excited to see how I hold myself, how I maybe come across differently on camera. So yeah, that's happening this Thursday. So I'm very excited and then a new website is coming soon. Yay. We're actually doing a refresh of our website. Like you say, you evolve, don't you? Like some of our projects, they're the older ones. I want to put the newer ones on. And like you say, you know, I change my hair all the time. So my pictures now with my curly bob is like, it's not me anymore. So yeah, I think it's important to keep updating that and yeah, just celebrating things that have happened more recently as well. It's like different chapters of us, you know, we like we look at that person and we go blather Isn't that nice? So yeah, I love it. So I'm celebrating celebrating that so Kim let's talk then about sort of Hmo's and why you chose this is your strategy but also the nuances because we were speaking about this idea that you now invest predominantly in an article for area Yeah. please explain what Article 4 means to the listeners who don't know and explain the caveats of what you need to know in order to do that. And then we'll dive a bit deeper into this conversation. Yeah, no, absolutely. So yes, you're correct. So HMOs we got into for cash flow. I was, as I say, I was working as a lawyer in a large law firm. So I earned a very good salary. Replacing that salary through buy-to-let would take, I'd still be going now. So, you know, it was going to take a really long time. HMOs is kind of a fast track way of earning cash flow. It comes with so many different caveats, though, you know, in terms of managing a HMO is a lot more hands on, a lot more work than a buy to let. So, you you get the increased cash flow, but there is an increased element of hassle, I suppose, with HMOs too. Yeah, so we invest in Article 4 areas. So Article 4 is where effectively the local council have removed permitted development rights. there's a general right that you can turn a house, know, a two or three bedroom house into a small HMO, which is up to, depends on the council, but usually up to five or six, up to five rooms, without planning permission. So you can just convert a house and as long as you get your HMO license, which is separate from the licensing department at the council. then you have a legally compliant HMO. In Article 4 areas, you're not able to convert that house into a HMO without obtaining planning permission from the council. And so even if you in our areas, a four bedroom property, HMO, unrelated people living together, three or more people is a HMO. So you then have to get planning permission. So our strategy was very much, I suppose we have a dual strategy. The first is to buy existing HMOs. So HMOs that have been in place for years and years, either before Article 4 was introduced or, well, usually it is before Article 4 has been introduced or they've had existing use for a certain length of time. So in those cases, we buy the HMO. and we apply for the certificate of lawful use from the council, which is effectively a certificate that says, yes, this has been operating as a HMO for X amount of years, and so it has HMO status. In order to do that, there's a huge amount of due diligence that we have to do before we buy and check, you know, have they had a licence, have they got ASTs. The council asked for a lot of paperwork, as I'm sure you can imagine, to prove that this has been operating as a HMO for many, many years. and we effectively manage that process for the owner. The other strategy that we have is buying houses, two, three, four beds and converting them into either C4, which is a small HMO or Suey Generous, which is seven or more bedrooms. And then we have a full planning process to go through for that. And my celebration that I just talked about that was one of those strategies. So was a two bedroom end of terrace property, but very large. We obtained planning permission for a five bedroom, five bathroom HMO. And now we're coming out of the refinance process on that one. The planning process took five months. So one of the things that you'll find with Article 4 councils is they don't really like HMOs. They've introduced Article 4 because they don't really want them. and they will have a very strict set of rules on when a HMO will be allowed. So part of my process when I am negotiating or looking at properties is can we meet the council's criteria because if we can't, we won't get planning permission. So a lot of that is to do with parking, transport links, saturation. is the key one really. what the council will say is within X amount of meters of the property, how many other HMOs are there? You know, if you've got, and you get this in every city, you have streets that are, you know, 80 % HMOs, they don't want any more HMOs on those types of roads. So they will say it's too many, you won't get it. So we, you know, there's a lot of due diligence on our part in making sure there aren't too many. in close proximity to the property that we're proposing to purchase. Yeah, gosh, there's so much to it. what's your, what's your, so do you invest in one particular area? You're like, I know, I know the council, I know the stipulations, I know the rules. Is that how you operate? Or do you operate in different cities? no, so two cities, only two cities. We know the councils really well, we know the rules. And because we do direct to vendor, we're constantly having conversations. We've just had an offer accepted a couple of weeks ago on a direct to vendor existing HMO. That's five bedrooms. We've already done the due diligence on the planning, the licensing. So we're going ahead with that one. But yeah, we are very, we've kind of become experts in our area. So we're sticking to those areas. We also, as a result of that, you know, we're quite good at calculating the end valuations because we've done loads. So yeah, it just, it de-risks it massively when you become an expert in your own area, particularly in Article 4 areas. The thing is with planning. there's always an element of the council just, you saying no to any planning application with or without reason. But we try to de-risk it as much as possible. Yeah. definitely. Planning can be such a pain in the bum. It really can. I mean, months is long, but it could even be worse than that. I remember when I had to go through planning during COVID for a simple extension on the flat that I owned. Nine months. Nine months. And then they came back and rejected it because of a silly thing where even the planning consultant was like, I've never seen that before. Like that is one word that I hate that people, or one sentence. Yeah. thanks, really appreciate that. Yeah, they literally can just, it's kind of like people always say about valuations, Kim, you and I can talk to you about this all day long. And they're like, how can you guarantee a great valuation? It's like, I can give you a textbook answer to that question. But the reality is, is your value on the day could be having a bad day and decide to, yeah, subjective, could decide, no, not today. Yeah. it today. I've had a bad day. I've had a breakup. I've had somebody not respond to my text. I'm gonna give you a damn valuation. It's like a power trip. yeah, that's it. And I think with the planning, there's a huge element of the emotional side, isn't there? So part of the planning process is that all the neighbors get a letter and you know, there's a notice on the street for HMO coming. We've actually been really fortunate in that. Yeah, exactly. So we speak to the neighbors beforehand before we even before we've even completed and we say, look, this is what we're planning to do. We show them our website, show them our testimonials on Google and we say, look, we are not the HMO landlord that you see in the press. We do things very differently. And as a result, we've had very minimal objections. But what we have in our areas are councillors that object. So councillors, local councillors are given the opportunity to comment on planning applications and as a rule, they object to HMO applications. So that means that... every time I go to planning, have to go to committee, which is a committee of usually around 10 local committee members. And you have to stand up and effectively plead your case for your your HMO. You have three minutes, the councillors and anybody who's objected has three minutes too. And then the decision's made on the night. So the only reason our planning was five months long is because the riots over summer, last summer. So do you remember the riots? So our committee date kept getting pushed back because effectively there was a backlog. They cancelled one of the committee dates and so everybody got pushed back. But it is frustrating because in that case in particular, the council members, the committee members said, you know, after we'd all said our three minutes and they said, this is a fantastic example of a HMO. This is exactly the sort of application we should be. supporting. We hadn't crammed bedrooms in, there was lots of amenity space, it wasn't overdevelopment of the property. But because the councillors don't like HMOs, they just object as a rule. And the councillor in particular got told off by them and said, you know, we get it. But when there's a good application, no other HMOs within the vicinity, that's the sort of application we should be supporting. it was a small win, but Mmm, massive win! a massive win, yeah. But it does put a lot of people off that uncertainty, the planning uncertainty and also the time scales. If you're in a non Article 4 area, you buy a two bedroom house within a few months, you could have converted it and that via cash flowing asset be applying for your HMO license. You just don't get that with Article 4 areas. It's just a longer process. The reason that we still do it, because a lot of people are like, why don't you just go just outside Article 4? And I know people that do. Two reasons. Firstly, the end valuations are higher in Article 4 areas because you've got that planning gain. There's a commercial value to that, to having that planning gain. So you get a bit more certainty on end valuations in Article 4 areas, I have found personally. And also I quite like that there are scarcity. means demand is very high. It means competition is lower. There's a lot of sort of bordering areas of where we invest, where there isn't Article 4. And they have that saturation problem. have streets of really high end, beautiful HMOs because there's no restrictions. And actually, you you go on spare room and there's loads of rooms available and they're all really nice rooms. And so I think there's pros and cons to both. And I also know of people that have done it, you know, just outside our areas and they don't get the great end valuations because... because there isn't Article so you don't get that kind of uplift in the planning. And also some of the areas, there might not be traditional HMO areas, so there's no comparables. So it can be quite tricky. So yeah, know it puts a lot of people off, but personally, we've just always worked with it. Where we lived was Article 4, we wanted to invest close to home. So we kind of by default just learnt the rules. learnt how to play the council's rules, play with their rules and follow them and it's worked so far. Yeah, it's worked for you. Absolutely. And if it works, you're like, this works for us. This is what we're gonna do. This is our area. We know it. Absolutely. exactly. And I mean, we have had, you know, 100 % success rate in terms of planning. So, you know, all of that due diligence that we do and the stress of waiting for the planning and going to committee, it does pay off in the end. So yeah, it's, it's not for everyone. Yeah. Well, this is the thing. Like some people will be listening to this going, no, do you know what? I don't think that's for me. No problem. Some people listening to this will be either doing it or wanting to do it and think, yes, everything that Kim's just saying, I agree with, you know, we're nodding along. One of the questions I think that's most rife at the moment, Kim, by far for HMOs is to do with the Renters Right Bill that's coming in. So what are your thoughts about that? Because there's a whole conversation around... what people should be doing, what measures people should be taking, what's your opinion about it? It's a tricky one. As you said earlier, I totally understand where the legislation is coming from and in respect of some landlords, why it's needed. I think the unfortunate thing is that it actually affects all landlords and the majority of landlords I think are good landlords. And so it's almost like we're being penalised for the bad landlords. But anyway, I think in terms of I think the key thing with the Renters' Rights Bill is being prepared. There's a lot of training out there. I don't know if you know Suzanne Smith, but she does some fantastic, she's a lawyer as well, and she does fantastic blogs, very up to date, like within an hour of committees or anything happening in government, she's written a blog about it. And just keeping up to date on what is coming in. I was at an event a couple of months ago, a women in property event, I was talking about, we have quite a big student portfolio. I'd say it's probably about 70 % students. And a lot of the changes that are coming in with the renter's rights bill particularly have a detrimental impact on student lets. Not being able to take rent in advance when students actually usually pay quarterly is one of the main ones. You know, there's loads of things. But I was mentioning that and saying, you know, the project that I've just done, that was always going to be a student let. We've actually made it professional because I don't want any more student lets at the moment until we know what happens with the Renters' Rights Bill. And quite a people didn't know. You know, they didn't know that students were going to be impacted in that way. And so, yeah, I think being informed, being prepared, there's loads of, you know, books. information, NRLA, I'm a big advocate of, I'm a member of, and they have a lot of information about it. But I think, you you can't just close your eyes and hope for the best on this one. There's going to be big changes to the way if you run it, even by to let's, but particularly with HMOs, there's going to be a lot of changes. And I mentioned earlier about doing more tenant due diligence is a key one for us. We're asking for guarantees. Yeah, lot of people are talking about Garen Tawes at the moment. Yeah, because it's just going to take longer. It's going to take longer before you can even start a court process for unpaid rent. The courts are going to be backlogged as they already are. They don't have the capacity to deal with an increase in claims. So it's about preparing yourself from the start, I'm thinking. As I say, with some of our properties. we that were traditionally student, we might switch them to professional. We're actually fully let now until 2026, the academic year ends, but we would usually be recruiting around October time, which is probably the law will be in by then. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. But I think all of these changes are just going to have a detrimental impact on tenants. You know, people are talking about rents increasing. As I say, asking for guarantors. Some people don't have guarantors through no fault of their own. They're coming from overseas, they don't have a credit rating. They're not now not allowed to pay any rent upfront. It's people like that, you know, we've had a couple recently who are doctors, they're coming over, you know, to serve our NHS, which is on its knees, you know, they're doing a fantastic job, but they don't have a credit rating, they don't have any contacts. And actually, they've taken out guarantor insurance, but You almost feel bad, but you've got to protect your own business. Yeah, I totally understand. We had it before where we had somebody who had a bad credit history and so our agreement with them was like, well, just pay us six months upfront rent and then pay us the next six months. They're like, yeah, no problem. We're able to do that. And we didn't need to take guarantors. We didn't need to do all of that. I've definitely seen it before where a landlord has stated only tenants with guarantors welcome. And you're completely right. Not everybody has that luxury of saying to somebody, can you like... Can you sign your name here? So if I don't pay, they're going to come after you. That's a big responsibility that not everybody has the luxury of. And I completely agree with you. think it's really going to change the dynamic, change the spectrum. I think a lot of landlords are going to be selling up as well. I think there's huge, huge opportunity for that at the moment. So yeah, to be continued with this conversation, I would say around this, because this is a big one that's going to be coming. And then Kim, my final question. though. I'm sorry. I was just gonna say, I think you're right. There is an opportunity, know, one of the property that we just had an offer accepted on the landlord is kind of like, I don't even want to navigate the new renter's rights bill and you know, old school landlords, they've done it their own way for years. They don't want the hassle and close to retirement, let's just sell. And so actually for someone like us who We really like the existing HMOs because of all the restrictions. It could be a real opportunity. But yeah, there's going to be a lot to learn. A lot to learn, definitely. Every day is a learning day, every day. I think in my final question to you, just before I let you go, is you also work with your husband as well, don't you, on this one? So my final question to you is kind of for anyone else out there who is in a duo with their partner, husband, brother, sister, friend, you know, anything, what would be your top tip for working closely with somebody that's close to you? Don't do it. I'm joking. Get out while you can. No, I'm only joking. It would be to have very clear defined roles. We at the start were just treading on each other's toes, both of us doing everything. It was very chaotic. And over the years, we kind of learned. Like I like, I like the negotiation. like finding deals. I, I don't like dealing with the tenants so much. don't like dealing with maintenance, the refurb side. So over the years, it's kind of, we now have very clear roles, but during that period of time where, we didn't and we were both kind of doing stuff and you know, Mike, he, he hates the design element and he hates negotiating. and talking to the landlord. it evolved naturally, but if you can kind of start, I'm going to do these parts and you're going to do the others, it'll make it much, easier. And quite funny, I did a post, it was last year, and I said, you know, working with your your significant other, here's my top tips. And I think it was one of my most commented posts, like so many people were like. my gosh, I needed to hear this. We're in the thick of it at the moment. I had so many DMs and they were just like, I thought it was the only one. You know, it is really hard. If you're not used to working with you, you you live together, you work together with parents together. We traveled, you know, in our camper van around Europe together. It's a lot of time together. So yeah, I think it's key to have those defined roles and to not overstep in terms of those roles as well. Leave them to. theirs and that seems to work for us. Perfect, I love that. And I just had to ask you, I was like, perfect way to finish. It's like, had to ask. So I'm like, God, how would you do it if you had to do it? have to cut out the bit where I said don't do it. no, that is staying firmly in. Kim, I'm sure that lots of people are going to want to get to know you after this podcast. And for those who don't already know you, where's the best place for them to find you? So yeah, we're on Instagram predominantly. So we're at Komo, K-O-M-O, properties. And I'm very active on LinkedIn. So just my name, Kim, and my surname O-P-S-Z-A-L-A. Mike's Polish, so I have a surname that doesn't sound like how it's spelled. I love it. love that. And as always, I'm Athena Dobson, official Girls and Property on Instagram. Come and drop into my DMs. Let's have a chat. And then don't forget, we've got the Girls and Property retreat on Friday, 25th of April. We're down to single digits, basically, as when this podcast goes out. So hopefully I might be sold out by the time this comes out, but you never know. So if you haven't grabbed a ticket yet, grab it. And of course we've got the Girls and Property community as well. Lots of different types of conversations and in-person workshops happening now for that one. So if you want any further information, just DM me the word community and we'll have a chat. Kim, I've loved today. Thank you so much. It's been so wonderful to get to know you more as well. we're definitely, thank you. We're definitely going for a part two on this. I have so many more questions to ask you. So part two incoming soon. All right guys, have the most wonderful day. Thank you again, Kim. And as I said, DM me where you're listening from. Enjoy guys, bye.