Can Introverts Really Build a Personal Brand? With Jacquie Lawes

Ever felt like you're hiding behind your business instead of actually showing up in it?

In this episode of the Girls in Property podcast I'm joined by Jacquie Lawes, personal branding expert and mentor, and we're having a really honest conversation about what it actually means to build a brand that feels like you, not just a logo, a colour palette, or a polished feed.

Jacquie shares her own journey from introverted creative to confident speaker and mentor. Because she didn't start out comfortable being visible. She had to do the work. And that's exactly what makes this conversation so important. 

We talk about identity and the shift that needs to happen. Not just what you do, but who you are and how that needs to come through in everything you put out into the world. Because when your brand is disconnected from your identity, people can feel it. And it costs you clients, connection, and confidence.

We also get into the practical side. Websites, visibility, content, and why faceless businesses are quietly holding so many women back from the growth they're actually capable of. Not just online presence for the sake of it, but showing up in a way that builds genuine trust.

And if you're an introvert who's been telling yourself that visibility just isn't for you, brace yourself, this one is going to challenge that story.

If you've been playing small and you know it, this is your sign to take up more space.

How to Get Involved With The Girls in Property  👇 

👩 Join our GIP Community

🎟️  Be the First To Hear About Upcoming Events 

🖥️ Want to Learn How to Raise Private Finance? Start with this Video 

A Big Thank You to Our Sponsored Partner

Rachel Knight from Title Split Limited - Access 25-35% Capital Uplift

Get In Touch

📷Girls in Property Instagram

📧 girlsinpropertypod@gmail.com

Transcript

0:02

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. my goodness. I'm laughing because I was thinking about it and I was thinking about my introductions and I think to myself, should I for today's introduction? And my brain instantly went to what me and this person were just talking about, which is when are we booking our next getaway with all of this ridiculous weather that is happening at the moment? Sunny days. and then the rainy days and everything in between and kind of it's everybody in that phase at the moment where they're like what coat am I supposed to put on today? It's too hot for this big coat, it's too rainy for this little coat so what coat am I meant to put on? Because I tell you what I'm definitely there at the moment and it is a pain in the bum. So I'm literally thinking about my next getaway, I'm thinking about where to go and just to really get some sunshine and... I love seeing a lot of you actually being away at the moment. A couple of you messaged me being like, Athena, we were meant to be in Dubai. Obviously we're not in Dubai at the moment. So now you're in like Egypt and you're in Spain and you're in all these amazing places. So hopefully I will be joining you soon. pray. So in today's episode, I'm going to, we're going to do something a little bit different today because I'll tell you why. It's really great that we have all of these amazing episodes where people come on and we talk about wealth. We talk about finance. We talk about, people's stories and we talk about, you know, 10 properties that they get and all these amazing, amazing guests. And I love it. But one thing that I always, always want to be speaking about and coming back to each time is about developing you as a person in regards to your personal branding and this notion of identity and how you identify yourself within your business and as a woman or human being as it were. And therefore I wanted to get this person on the podcast purely because number one, she is just Gold when it comes to this because her whole branding is around she roars And so she really wants to have give women confidence to really step forward in all that they do and quite frankly This is what Jackie's actually done for me this last Um, know year plus that i've known Jackie where she has literally taken my branding of girls and property Sat me down actually said athena. Who are you and who is girls and property? What is it that you want? What is your message? What is your vision? And literally helped me create dare. I say and I say it with such pride, the most beautiful, gorgeous website in the entire world, branding now for the new podcast. All of that is all Jackie and it just encompasses everything that I love, like a warm hug. And so if you haven't yet checked it out, please do go to www.girlsandproperty.co.uk and see Jackie's amazing work, but we really spent that time coming together. And so today my mission is to shine a spotlight on Jackie. to show how incredible she is and to show you why personal branding and stepping into your own light and your own power is so important today. So without further ado, I would love to introduce you to all Jackie Laws. Hey Jackie. Hey Athena, thank you so much for having me today. I'm so excited to be here. do you know what? feel like lately our conversations have been happening at like the witching hour of like 1am, 2am, trying to get this website together where we're like, right, it's launching, it's launching on Friday. No, no, no, no, it's going to launch next week. No, no, no, Jackie, I've actually changed my entire program. So we have to redo the entire page again. And you're like, and you know, you were brilliant through it, Jackie, you were so patient. And what I love about you, and I think this is so important to say from the get go is Each time I did that to you, each time I changed it, each time I said, one more thing, one more thing, one more thing, your response as a professional in your field was no problem, I want it to be perfect for you. I want it to be perfect for you. I want it to be you. You never ever once stopped me. You never ever once said, that's it, that's enough, that's enough revisions. You were there with me to the absolute end. And for that, I will be forever grateful for you, Jackie, forever. Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. And I think I know we talked about this briefly before we started recording, but it's been such a journey over the last year. And I think so many people think of rebrands, website branding, all of that kind of thing as being a nice to have. But this really has been identity work. Like I've seen the growth, both of us have had so much growth in the last year and it's about really reflecting who. not you were, because I think you were probably a very different person a year ago, your mission goals, everything will have probably evolved in the last year. And I think it's making sure that you're focusing on building your brand based on where you're going and really setting the intention of, okay, this is who I'm becoming. And it's that whole identity piece, isn't it? It's not then about having just nice branding and visuals. It's about really taking your brands where you're heading. beautifully said. I absolutely love that. what we said we really wanted to do for today's episode is my mission is to, as I said, shine a spotlight on you in all your glory, because I think that everyone needs Jackie in their life, quite frankly. I think if you're unsure on your personal branding or unsure who you are, your identity, just sit with Jackie for like half an hour. And I guarantee you, Jackie will pull the pull it all out of you like the essence of it. But also what we really want to do today is we were speaking about this notion of identity and I know that there's a lot of listeners right now, particularly in the community and everything who kind of might be sitting there today and going, do you know what ladies like I've been really struggling recently to actually understand what my identity is, what my ethos of my business is, who am I attracting, who am I talking to, what is my messaging? And so I think on today's episode, what we want to really do is give value. to show you all how you can really step into your own power and your own light and as Jackie says, roar with it as well. um So that is the essence of today's episode. So stick with us guys, because that's going to be what we really want you to get by the end of it. So grab your notepads and pens. Jackie, before we really step into that today, can you also first please introduce yourself? Tell everyone a bit about you and how you even got into this notion of personal branding and what it's like, what it's been like being in terms of your identity as a mum, business owner and what you've been through yourself. Yeah, so my background is I have spent my entire working career in content creation, in visuals. I've always been creative since as young as I could pick up a pencil. I've always been that person, sat in the corner drawing, sketching. I've always been a very visual person. And my background has always been in obviously the creative fields and it stems from Being in an art lesson at school and it was going through the stage of everyone needs to apply for university. And I knew when I was at school that university just wasn't for me. I'd already made that decision. I was already working part time. So I was financially independent. I didn't like the idea of having more education to get myself into debt. And it just wasn't for me. Like the whole uni lifestyle didn't line with me at all. introvert here, like I'm just not that kind of person at all. I kind of got all that drinking out of my system and done all the like partying and stuff early. So I knew I didn't want to go to university and I can remember as clear as anything my art teacher, bearing in mind I was creative, he knew that I really wanted to go down the route of a creative path and he said to me, but Jackie if you don't go to university you're not going to get a job in the creative industry. And I remember hearing those words and thinking, okay, he's told me that now, which I'm a fiery Aries. If you tell me that, I'm going to go and prove you wrong and I'm just going to do it anyway. Kind of a little bit of a long story short, my first proper job was working in visual merchandising. So I landed my first job in a creative field and every job I had after that was in creative industries. I worked with massive brands like Ferrari and Mattel and Hasbro and like all these huge brands in content creation, working in advertising photography. So not only did I get to prove my art teacher wrong, I was doing something that was really, really lighting me up. And I worked in creative content for probably, I think it was about 15 years, must've been 15 years actually, it was probably a bit less than that, but a long time anyway, that was my career and it was all around business brands. So it was all about building assets that worked around different marketing campaigns. So was all very much business focused. There were all goals, there were always sales targets and things. So it was all about creative assets that were aligned to that. And then I became a mum. And whilst on maternity leave, I got to do some creative little projects just for fun, just for some friends. And my intention was always to go back to work, like part-time hopefully, but to go back to work. Cause I just wanted to be able to earn money. And yeah, just to do something that I really enjoyed, but returning to work wasn't for me because I was literally given the option of, you can come back full-time and do your job or not at all, essentially, because there were no part-time roles available. So I was in a position. with a small baby. with literally deciding, I can either go back full time, which would mean I'm only really going to get home to see my daughter for bedtime. That just didn't align with me at all. Like, although I've always been very driven in my career and I love what I do, when I, as soon as I became a mum, like that was my whole world. My whole world was providing for her and being there and being fully present. Like my mum was around for me, so I knew I wanted the same for my children. So to be almost told that you can either have the job, have the money, or have nothing and literally be fully financially dependent on your husband, which I'm very grateful I am able to do that or was. um decided to leave, like I was almost pushed out of work and I know a lot of women will resonate with this because we're not really given many options. It's if you're in a well-paid job, if you're in any kind of career, there's not that flexibility. I think they're getting better but certainly then this was pre-COVID, there just wasn't the option to work from home, to be flexible and to allow mothers to be able to do their job whilst also raising the next generation of people. So I started my own business in 2016. So that was when I started my kind of entrepreneurship journey. Basically forgot everything I'd learned in terms of brand and branding. And I was just doing what I was enjoying, doing very creative projects for my clients. I scaled my business very fast. So I became multi award winner in my field very quickly, which is incredible. And even when I look back on it now, I don't really know how I did that. I just did. I was literally going with my heart. And then people were asking me how I did it. Like, how did I scale my business so quickly? How have you just come into this industry and you're already winning awards? How are you like getting these amazing clients? My pricing, I had rebranded and as part of my rebrand, I tripled my prices. So I was already like top of the bar in terms of what I was doing at the time of anybody else in the industry. But I did that because I was very time poor. I couldn't take on loads of clients because that's how I started my business and it just meant I was drowning. and not sleeping. So I rebranded and I positioned myself as an authority in my field. And then I realized, okay, this work that I've done, how I've positioned myself in my industry is literally what is attracting the clients that I want to work with, the opportunities, like all of this stuff, all the magic is flowing because of this decision I've made to actually stand out and kind of take a sidestep from what everybody else is doing and just be so driven and focused in what it is that I want to be doing and what lit me up. And then more and more people were asking me how I did it. So I very organically fell into mentoring. was never a mission. I never planned to be a mentor or a coach or to support other business owners. It was just people wanted to book a power hour here and a power hour there, or book me for a VIP day and ask me to help with their branding and their website. So I decided to take a bit of a sidestep and I moved away from my own design business and became a mentor. Now I help people to position themselves as an authority. help them to overcome any confidence blocks and to really take center stage in their business and their life as well. Because the work that I do with my clients, not just for their business, but it has an impact on how they live their life as well, on how they show up differently. It's a real identity shift. And so that's kind of like a bit of a whistle stop. taught into how I got to where I am now. But now I am a personal brand visibility and empowerment mentor. And it all comes from my background in the creative assets that I've only ever known in terms of my career, but also more of the really understanding the individual because we are all here on a different mission. We all have different goals, different values and my own kind of spiritual awakening I've had over the last few years, which I'm sure we'll touch into in a bit. has really helped me to get laser focused on what it is that I'm here to create. And it's also meant that I've been able to see my clients in a different way to what I had before. instead of seeing, okay, your branding's rubbish, I could make that better. Let's make it better. We'll create the assets. You can go off on your merry way. It's now about, okay, who are you? And I know you talked about that, but our very first like VIP day that we had was me understanding more about you. Like what is the kind of core essence of Girls in Property? What are you creating? And that is how you build. brand it's all about inside out branding and it's about understanding the individual so that you can actually position yourself as the go-to in your niche so that is what I do now and I absolutely live and breathe and I just love this work because the shift I see in my clients just from doing this work is so big that yeah it's just like I've got goosebumps now even talking about it so love it And, and, you know, it's so beautiful. And this is why I say to so many listeners, I think that what I would suggest everybody do is take a step back to really think to yourself, literally what Jackie's saying about, does what you do light you up? would be my question to all the listeners right now. Like genuinely, if it is that you have this burning desire in you right now that you go, I know that what I'm about to do, whether it's social housing, whether it's this, whether it's creating your own business, whether it's creating your own podcast, whether it's creating your community, what is it that lights you up? Because I want you to just listen to something a second. Listen to how Jackie speaks about what it is that she does. Like Jackie, you ooze, like it literally spills out of you. You ooze like, just... It lights you up what you do and therefore you then pass on that energy to others because you're you're you're so into it and that to me is personal branding. Mm. for me, you know, I spoke on stage recently at Global Women and it was quite late. It was a Saturday night. I was on stage at 7.30 on a Saturday night, right? And I thought, oh my God, what am going to do? 50 women in a room. And so many women came up to me afterwards and were like, Athena, I can't tell you. And they don't know me. Do you know what the best thing about that room was? I think like three people knew who I was, but like 47 didn't know who I was, which is my favorite room to be in. And they were like, Athena, I can't tell you. I've been so drained today and I've been so tired today. and you've just given us energy from your presentation. And I think it comes down to when you know who you are, when you love what you do, you then have that energy that comes out of you. And that is why I love working with you, Jackie, because, you know, I remember us sitting at that VIP day and I was explaining to you, you're like, who are you? And I was like, this is who I am. What's your mission for Girls and Property? This is my mission. You kept saying to me, why is that your mission? Why? What is it that you want to do? And you kept like, you kept like trying to get me down like this rabbit hole. And at times I was going, that is a good question, Jackie. Hmm. You know, and I'd have to really sit and I'd have to really reflect. And, know, I think back to a year ago, when you asked me that question, we were sat in Bournemouth a year ago to now what we actually created. It's different in a year because, because I've evolved and the business has evolved. And I think that is what's so beautiful is that evolution. of personal branding evolving with us as it were. And one thing I do definitely want to now mention Jackie because it's important for all the listeners to hear this as well as we said before we came on the episode, you're actually an introvert aren't you? So explain that, explain it because a lot of listeners listening to this are gonna go, there is a gonna part going hold on I'm an introvert Jackie talk to me about personal branding I'm an introvert. Yeah, so I first of all, I'm an Aries. I'm I am fiery like when I'm in my lane and I'm doing something that lights me up. I have so much energy like here like it all spills out of me like you said, but growing up I was the shy kid. I moved schools when I was six years old and that had a real knock on my confidence having to set like be in this new sort of area and new friends and everything and I really struggled to make friends when I moved. And I think Just for years and years, I was just always that person that feared so much of getting things wrong. I so wanted to be liked, so wanted to be seen, so wanted to be heard, but I had that real embarrassment around what if I put my hand up in school and I get the answers wrong and people laugh at me, like all the what ifs that would go around in my head. And it meant that I was, was never, when I look back now, I was never my full self, like as a child, which is really sad when you think about it, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm so glad I had that because it's given me so much more perspective. where I am now to understand, not everybody is, people see me and they think, God, you're so confident. You do your podcast, you do all this and you speak on stage. I am not a naturally born confident person. I've had to work at this. And it's not taken that much hard work. It's been more about really understanding who I am and getting into alignment with what I'm meant to do. I think when you're in school, particularly if you are an introverted, shy child, which both my daughters are actually, you're put into boxes. at school. So you're either the loud naughty child, you're the shy quiet one, you're kind of in the middle, you are put into almost categories. And then all the way through school, you go through the same process, you go through the same system, which is so broken in itself anyway. But you're following the same path as everybody else. And we know like particularly in business, like we're all so different. We all have different strengths, different weaknesses, different goals, values, everything about us. And yet in school, We're not taught anything about identity. We're not taught anything about individuality. It's all about getting the grades, working really hard, get your head down, just stay focused and you'll be able to do well. And you need to do well because otherwise you're not going to get the good job. You're not going to get paid. You're not going to have the dream life that you want. You're literally programmed and through society in that school life age to be this certain person. think the further I got into school, the older I got into school, I was really bad, I've always had a really terrible memory, I have to write things down otherwise it's just gone, especially if it's something that doesn't really interest me. So for things like revising, I'll give a really good example actually, so me and I've got two brothers, we're all very different in how we learn, I've got one of my brothers is hugely creative in music and he does tend to remember more things than me he's very creative in a different way. I've always been the kind of very creative arty person And then my other brother is the academic one. So not creative at all, but it smashes it as sports. Really, really clever in terms of exams and stuff. And I remember as a child, any kind of exam that you go through, you're meant to revise. And I tried so many different methods. I was that person that literally, when the homework was set, I would get home and I would do it that day. Whereas my brothers would leave it till the day before it was due. Like I was always that person. I was very on it. If I had a to-do list, I worked my way through the to-do list. I just keep go, go, go. And I worked so hard for my exams. I revised like anything. I recorded myself. I read books. I listened to audios. I watched videos. I wrote stuff down. I had all the exam practice papers. And yet I would get into the exam room and my mind would go completely blank. Like it would just be gone no matter how much revision I'd done. And I really, really struggled with that. And I think I allowed that for years because you have your GCSEs and I have my A levels. So for years I made my... really awful exam results mean something about me, even though my coursework was like A star, like excellent, really good grades in my coursework, but my exam always let it down. And I would say focus on that. We're human. We always focus on the negatives about ourselves. It's the same as if you look in the mirror, you're always focusing on, I don't like that bit about me. And that was the same for me. So I was that person that worked so hard and yet I didn't get the grades. I just wasn't quite good enough to get whatever it was I was trying to get the grades, like the place or whatever it was. Whereas my brother, that's the academic one, he would do like barely any revision. He'd just rock up in his exam, come out, get an A or a B and I'd be like, why? Why is this not working for me? And it was just cause he remembered everything. It was almost like he'd listen or read something once and it would just be ingrained in his head. My brain doesn't work that way. And I think now I understand more about psychology and how we're all wired so differently. We all have different strengths. We've all got different human designs. I now can see so clearly. how those strengths and weaknesses come and how we can use those to really enhance our own skills. But going back to being introverted, it was all of these repeated patterns throughout my childhood and early adulthood that just made me feel really insecure about myself. And I think I am an introvert and I have always been shy. would never be the person that would go first. I wouldn't put my hand up in school because I would just feel terrified that I would get the answer wrong. And even in business, although I had the amazing branding when I rebranded, I did have some photos of me, but I certainly wasn't the face of my business. At the time, my business was a product business. I was selling wedding stationery, so I was able to hide behind the scenes. I didn't need to be the face of my business because to me, that wasn't an important thing until I realized it really was. It was the thing that really made my business thrive was when I started to show up as me because people were then buying who I was. And the more I realized that and that people were actually... paying me for things or inviting me to speak on things, whether it was a podcast or speaking in their online webinar. I certainly wouldn't have done in-person speaking at this point, but it was having these other opportunities and other people seeing something in me that I didn't see in myself. I think that then helped me with my confidence. And I think the more I've done that, the more I've practiced, the more I've started to put myself out there, I started to build up my confidence and realized actually me putting myself out there. isn't then about me, it's about me helping other people. And the more I've done that and seen the rewards back, whether it is a message saying, my God, I absolutely love that training you did in so and so's mastermind, or I loved that thing you did on that retreat, or I love that podcast episode that you were on. And then I'm like, okay, I've actually got something really valuable to share here. People want to listen to me. So instead of me hiding and not putting my hand up and not going first and not speaking my truth, I started to do it more and more. do think confidence is one of those things that you do. You get more confident, don't you? As you do things. We're not born being able to just put ourselves out there on social media to promote a business. Like that's such an alien concept in itself. And I think for anyone listening to this or watching this that is introverted, that the whole thought of putting themselves in front of their phone screen or whatever. actually going out there speaking on a stage or something makes them like shrivel up inside and just like, no, I don't want it. That was me. 100 % that was me. I would never have spoken on a stage in my life. And now here I am hosting my own events in front of a whole room of people. And I love it because I know where I've shown up as my true self, I'm only attracting the people that actually align to me. So that is the beauty in this work is As soon as you start to uncover all those layers and the insecurities and rewire your subconscious mind and overcome those limiting beliefs that have been holding you back potentially for decades, you actually start to feel more of you. And that is what brand and personal brand is all about. It's about you showing up as you in your truth. Do you know what's making me laugh, Jackie? It's like you go from being this really introverted person to then literally being like, being like this person that just goes on and on and on on. right, don't stop me, don't stop me. Hand me a microphone. I'm just gonna keep talking. I'm gonna keep throwing. I'm so passionate about this. And I'm like, love it, Jackie, love it. So I've written down some things here that I really wanna touch on today to give loads of value in today's episode. So the first thing that you were just talking about there, which is so true and I say this to people all the time, is that I know so many people who are the world's best kept secret. You know, they really are the world's best kept secret. They are so talented. They are so fantastic. And I say to them, who knows that you even exist? And they're like, um, like some people in my local area. And I'm like, well, you're literally doing, and I actually, I want listeners to listen to this. You are doing people a disservice by being the world's best kept secret. And one thing I want to say is, and I say this all the time and I said it on the stage actually at Global Women, is progress over perfection. Always. We always, always just need to progress. And like Jackie just said there, it is this notion of we don't just come out of the womb and we all go, great, I'm going to go on stage and this is how I'm going to do it. No, we practice. We mess up. We make mistakes. We learn, we go again. Even me, for example, you know, I asked for feedback from the global women presentation that I did. I actually asked for feedback. said, I really appreciate some constructive feedback. And I got given it and they said, this is what I would do next time. And I went, fantastic. Thanks for letting me know. I'll go change my presentation. I'll make it even better. And I think that's the best thing you can do is just do that one thing. uh Jackie, one thing I, we're gonna go do celebrations now, but one thing I really wanna talk about just as caveats of what you just said was in regards to this faceless business aspect. I wanna talk about that with you. And then also I'm gonna talk to you also about... potential dangers, which I've spoken to people recently about of just being your personal brand in terms of scaling and in terms of really developing from there. So I've written some stuff down that I thought, right, I really want to nail this today with value. But before we do that, can you, um as always with Girls and Property, as you know, because you asked me one thing that I really love to do with Girls and Property. And I said to you, Jackie, like my thing is about celebrating women, celebrating ourselves. Like we do not take time to just stop, take a breath and actually celebrate ourselves. So what are you celebrating at the moment? I am celebrating that I have created a business that allows me to have so much freedom and choice. And I think this is always, I got so stuck in my own head and seeing what other people's version of success was for years. that actually I kind of lost sight with what I wanted to create. And as a mom, my kids are aged 10, seven and four. Like I want to be fully present with them. wanna, it's the Easter holidays at the moment. This has been a choice. I've chosen to be on this podcast today in the Easter holidays, but I've allowed myself two weeks off basically. So I'm literally choosing, do I wanna share a piece of content today? Do I wanna do this today? And it's been so lovely to... go through the things that I have gone through and make different choices and make investments that maybe haven't worked out and also kind of got. not brainwashed, but I've got sucked into the noise of the online world. And now I've allowed myself in the last couple of years to really take a step back and focus on, okay, what do I want? What do I actually want? And right now in this stage of my life I'm in, I want to be fully present with my kids. Like I want to have those memories. I don't want to look back and think, yeah, my business is thriving, but look, I worked really hard and I sacrificed those times with my kids to be able to focus on the business. I don't want that. Like my business will always be here. And I think the more we realize what do we actually want in this stage of our life right now, or even in the next year, what do we want to create and create based on that. So at the moment I'm really celebrating that I have created this freedom of choice basically in my business. You have, I love that. And you know, when we started working together, you set very clear boundaries with me. You were like, I'm not working these days, I work these times. Okay, we got a little bit muddled at the end with like the witchy hours of doing it. But you did set boundaries, you did. You know, we just really just went, you know, hard at the end. But originally, had good boundaries. And I love that and I absolutely adore that. And do you know what, for anyone listening to this also, because they might be sitting there going, know, ladies, I've got a full time job. I'm trying to get into my own business or my property portfolio. I've got three children as well. You know, everyone has different goals and different aspirations and never ever compare yourself to someone else because everyone's in their own season of life and everybody's in their own season of time. So what my advice to you would be is be inspired when you hear people talk about these things as opposed to anything else and think to yourself, okay. what is it therefore that I could do? Let's say that you're also in the Easter holidays or that things are happening for you. Is it that actually you just part one thing at the moment that's a bit too heavy to give yourself time to just do your full-time job and be with the kids or to just be in this season and this chapter of life? So I always want people to know that anything is possible and not everything has to be done at the same time. It can just be like a marathon instead of a sprint and that's really important say. And then just a caveat while I'm saying that I'm celebrating in line with this podcast and personal branding is exactly what Jackie said Which is I'm now in a position within my own journey having done girls and property now for three years I can't believe oh my god like the difference of what three years can make like I just don't even recognize myself Honestly, so they actually recognize myself to her a year ago and Jackie used a beautiful term there and she said who are we becoming? And I sit with this quite a lot at the moment because I'm doing of course subconscious work and I'm uncovering lots of layers of me doing a lot of healing work as well. I had no idea how much I had to heal my soul. And I'm now really thinking about Athena, who are you becoming? What is your message? You know, people say to me a lot recently, they're like, Athena, I see you as a messenger. So therefore, what is my message? What is my integrity? What is my values? What are my pillars? And All I can say is I'm so excited for where Girls and Property is heading and who I am becoming. Because for me, I'm extending beyond just property. I am now going into supporting women through wealth. through diversification, through buying businesses. I've told everyone, like, I wanna buy businesses this year. You know, let's go, let's buy some businesses. Let's do the mastermind and teach other women how to buy businesses. And so that to me is the most exciting bit that I feel like I used to put myself in this like box, as Jackie says, like a box to go, well, I'm girls in property, therefore I can only teach property and I can only talk about property. Hell no. Hell fricking no. I want to talk about wealth. I want to talk about personal branding. I want to talk about investment. I want to talk about buying businesses. I want to like give everyone the ability to believe that they can achieve anything that they set their heart to and to give you all a microphone, a stage and a voice for you to have your voice heard. I feel that my mission is to be the facilitator. if you like, to give all of you what you need and my mission as I now know it is to serve all of you and I'm, I love that, I'm beautiful for that, I just want to serve all of you. So for me it's about becoming and inspiring and becoming who I want to be and yeah, I'm really excited about it. So that's what I'm celebrating today, this notion of becoming. Yay! think just to touch really quickly with the whole becoming, one of the things, one of the biggest blocks that I had in my business journey, and I would say in my life as well, when I, when you become a mum. your entire world, your identity changes instantly. So you've had this whole nine months of growing this baby and you imagine what it's going to be like. And then literally they're born. Your body has changed. Your mindset has changed. Your hormones are all over the place. You're now fully got to care for this thing. And I think because I had already started my business when my first born was a little baby, I've then had two other children since then. I never allowed myself that breathing space to really sit with, Oh my God, I'm like a new person now. And it was when I'd had my third, I had like a rock bottom moment when he was a few months old. where I just felt totally lost in my own skin. I looked in the mirror, I was like, who the hell is this person? Like, I don't recognize her anymore. I really lost who I was. And I think for anyone that is in that stage now, because it is like the lowest of the low to be in that point where you just don't know who you are, you don't know what your purpose is, you've kind of lost everything about your identity, is allow yourself space to grieve because it is a grieving process. You have to grieve the person you once were. And it's the same as people that don't have children. If you're going through a transition in your life, You need to grieve who you were because you're not that person anymore and you never will be them again. And then really focus on what, who do you want to be? Like if you can imagine your dream life, what does it look like and what tiny thing could you do each day that is going to allow you to do that? And I think that is the very start of what really helped me to scale my own business and really build my personal brand to the level it is today is doing this work, allowing those feelings to flow. Like just get it out, get all that emotion out because we need to, it's not healthy to bottle it all up. So yeah, that just on identity, that is a huge piece because it was such a, it was a really pivotal moment in my own career with just allowing myself to process those feelings and understand who it is I'm becoming. I'm never ever going to be the person I was pre-children. And I'm really grateful to that version of me that got me to where I am now. And now I'm focusing on who I'm becoming and where I am now. I love that. Well, let's touch on that actually Jackie. Let's talk about identity because I think identity is the crux of it. It really is. And I talk about self-identity all the time because you know, if you ask... It's really interesting actually because if you were to really ask somebody, you know, who are you? You know, they might say, I'm a mum. or they might say, I'm a community leader, or they'll say, you know, I'm a business owner, you know, and who are you? And you know, I give a beautiful example of this actually, and I'm going to give a shout out to her. So in my Girls and Property Accelerator program, we have, which we just graduated from, we graduated in March, we had one of our girls called Bindia. And Bindia, if you're listening to this, which I know you do listen to this, I'm going to do a shout out to you right now. And you know, for the longest time, she was really struggling with her identity. She was like, I think I'm this, I'm not sure, because she's a mom and she was a home stager and she's like, I think I'm this. And you know, it was actually what she did. uh And I have to give the credit to him. It wasn't me, it was the credit to him. She spent the day with Actar, right? He's my really good friend and business psychologist. And I don't know, like literally she came out a different person, literally, because she came into the next session the following day. Actually, no, I lied. She came into the session that evening. evening and she was just like on fire like light and she said I now know who I am I'm at Bindia who are you she says I'm a business owner and when she said that she says I'm a business owner I giggled so much because our whole face lit up like She is the most incredible mom. She's incredible, most incredible homestager, but she literally stood there so rooted in her purpose. And she went, I've been dear. I'm a business owner. And my God, did I see it? Like her shoulders were back. She held herself differently. And I think that's where this really stems from is this notion of identity, because the thing is, I believe that you don't just have one identity, you know, you, you know, you are who you are and you therefore are a mom. a home stager and a business owner and a wife and all these other things. But it's like, well, what do all of those things represent? What do all those things come together that you really want to encompass into who you are? Because at the end of the day, Jackie, people buy from people, don't they? Behind anything else, people will always be magnetized to that person. And you know those memes that say like, people can copy your recipe? but they can never copy like the ingredients that are actually in the recipe. Nobody can do that. What I'd love to get your take on this because we talked a lot about identity for me and girls and property. So what's your standpoint on this? Yeah, so I think identity is about you really understanding who you are and what you're here to do. And I think we're so, it's very easy to attach the labels to ourselves, whether it is sister, mom, wife, husband, partner, like whatever it is, we put all these labels to ourselves. So when people say to you, who are you? Like, tell me about yourself. Like, I'm a wife or I'm a mom of three. Like it's just, it, it becomes such a natural part of conversation, hasn't it? But actually when we get to who we are underneath all that. If you take all those labels away, it's then just you speaking your truth and understand who you are. I think like that call that you said about, or that time that she spent with Aktar, I think it's such a quick thing when you can see it in somebody. Like I feel like I'm quite good at seeing what somebody else can't in themselves. It's like we're all amazing at seeing other people's blind spots, but we can't see our own. That's why they're called blind spots. And I think we need that. Don't we? need that guidance. We need that support. But in terms of the actual identity, It's, it is a process for some people they don't have so much crap. One of my good friends who works in human design, she always talks about how we're all diamonds, we're all these beautiful shiny diamonds, but actually we've got layers of muck and dirt and every clay and everything that's all just been... piled on top and it's about really getting to that root of that shiny diamond, our true essence. And that can be a really long process for some people. If you've taken on layers and layers of responsibility and hurt and anxiety, like all of these different things, and that might not even be just from this generation, it could be from past generation, it could be past life if you believe in all of that. Like it could be all of these things that we're carrying with us unnecessarily or even un... like we don't even know that we're carrying it. And I think it's really focusing on you and allowing yourself space to get to know who you are. And one of the things that made a huge transition for me was mirror work. So I started learning more about the laws of attraction and understanding more about energetics and embodiment and self love and trust, how powerful that all is in order to not just create a stronger business for yourself, but also for you to really shift into an identity. that feels good to you, that really likes you out and feels like your truth. So mirror work was literally starting on my first day. I remember cringing and so I was like, is the most cringing thing ever. And I had to look in the mirror. and had to look myself in the eye and say the words, love you. And the first, couldn't even get the word, like the words just wouldn't come out. It felt so weird and uncomfortable. And bearing in mind, this isn't me recording it or anything. This is just me talking to myself in the mirror. It felt like such a weird thing. And I did this for about a month every single day. I said, I love you. And then after the month, I continued to do it not. every day but I did continue to do it and then I would add something else or like I love you you look beautiful today like I love the colour of your eyes or I love what you're wearing your hair looks really good today and I would give myself a compliment I cannot tell you it sounds ridiculous if you're somebody that is an introvert or you just think that feels weird as hell do it because honestly it makes such a shift and I cannot tell you the difference it makes like I Now, instead of looking at every single floor, which I have a lot of, don't, I'm not zoned in on those. I look for the highlight because I'd almost programmed my brain to focus on the good rather than the bad. I now look in the mirror and I'm looking, I'm literally scanning my body or my face or whatever for the good things. So instead of highlighting all of my flaws, and I think that's been a huge part of my own identity because it's meant that I've... had the confidence to wear different things. It's meant I've had the confidence to put myself first, to really take time for me. And I think that's such a huge part of you becoming that next level version of who you're meant to be, because we just have so much that we're carrying all the time, but we need to be able to put ourselves first to actually feel like our best version of ourselves. Because when we do, people around us can feel it in our energy. Like we literally light up the room when we're in alignment with ourselves. Definitely and and you know, so I've never done mirror work before I've never even heard of it So I just I just thought to myself there every time I go to brush my teeth I'm going I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it Jackie Yeah, why not because and anyone who's sitting there thinking to themselves that sounds really cringe or rubbish. I'm not being funny No one can see you. So who are you being cringe for if you're the only one in the bathroom or wherever you are No one can see you. No one is knowing that you're even doing it. So Don't, don't, I always say this to people, like I always say this. Do not be the reason that you do not win, right? So many people are there trying to pull you down. Don't start blocking your god damn self, okay? At least give yourself permission and at least permission to have a pathway to do something. So if it's not mirror work and it's something else, please just go and give yourself permission to try something new today so that you actually can allow yourself and give yourself permission to take yourself forward. It's so important. Jackie, one question that I've got for you is I talk to a lot of people about faceless businesses. Faceless businesses tends to be quite a big topic at the moment because a lot of people don't feel naturally, for whatever reason, confident about going on camera. Now, I will caveat this and say, honestly, ladies and gentlemen, I think the reason that you don't feel confident on the camera is because you have not done the healing work around your fear of being visible. That's the first thing I'm going to say to you. You all have a fear of being visible that stems from something that is deep, deep rooted inside your soul and you don't even know it because you don't know what you don't know. And I guarantee you that's where I would start if I was you. I would start with yourself and I'd say, why the hell do I not want to be visible? What the hell am I afraid of? who instilled this fear in me, what traumatic event happened to me when I was younger and go and release it, go and heal yourself and go and take yourself forward would be the first thing. But until that time, faceless businesses. So what's your opinion of faceless businesses, Jackie? I think there is a place for them. Um, but I think if you are somebody that wants to attract more clients, attract more wealth, if you want to really build, especially if like community is really important to you, if you want to connect with the line people, if you want to attract to line people, particularly if you're working like one to one or If you're going to have a long term relationship with somebody, if people are literally going to be spending time with you, then I think a faceless account is just making it so much harder. You're literally putting blockers up. If your faceless account is something like you only have courses and your whole brand could be built around, okay, I could help you achieve this, that, and the other by doing this course, then absolutely like it could work. But I just think there's so much trust that has been lost. through faceless accounts, through scams that have happened, through various schemes. And I think people really do want to trust somebody. They want to get to know somebody and they do browse. People do binge watch. People do watch your content. They look at your stories and not everybody engages. I think that's a really important thing to know that like most of my clients that have paid in full or have said, yeah, I'm ready to go now have been the people that have never engaged in my content. Like they're just... the lurkers, the lurkers that will watch, but they don't necessarily engage. So I think it's really important to focus on what is it you're here to do? What do you want to create? And I think like, I totally agree with what you said about the healing work, because I know the first video I ever did when I went live, my hand was shaking and sweating so much. And that was doing a live in a closed, safe Facebook group community. And it was all around visibility. It was all around getting ourselves out there and it felt so uncomfortable. I remember coming off there thinking, my God, it was just horrible. Because our brains are literally wired to, if we get laughed at or if we don't do a good job here, we're literally going to get pushed out of the tribe and the lion's going to eat us. That's how our brains are wired to think. We're always scanning for danger. So by us putting ourselves out there when we don't feel confident, we're literally putting ourselves to the slaughter. So I think when you can do that healing work and you really start to get to the root cause of why you're not being visible, that will really help you to start doing little things. And it could be that you start with things like stories, just to show your face. You don't have to be talking to the camera, but just do that more. Maybe it's things like going on podcasts where there's not video recorded, so you're sharing your voice. It's little baby steps. And I think anybody, I would never tell somebody that feels insecure, that clearly has very, a lot of healing work to do. I would never advise doing a faceless account because I just don't think they build trust with your audience. Um, but I would also never advise that someone just goes on camera and just do it, just rip the bandaid off, go and do your video, go and record that thing, go and speak on stage, put yourself in the ring. Because for some people it's, it's not actually in alignment with them to be visible in that way. And I think when you can really understand each individual, what they're here to create, what they're here to do, their values, their life stage, everything about them, you can then help them to be visible in a way that is fully aligned to them. So some of my clients come to me and they could talk like, for England and they're just really passionate about what it is that they do, but they don't feel they have no self-confidence in how they look. And that's a real issue that so many women have to go through. And for those people, I normally recommend just recording your voice. Like literally just start by recording your voice. You could record videos reels with your audio on, just start with baby steps. Then as you get confident with that, you will naturally then find that you will then have the confidence thing. I do know what I'm going to try doing some video here. So it's not about just jumping in the deep end, I think there is a way of doing it. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to recommend to somebody just keep putting it off. If you feel a bit scared by it, don't do it. You have to get to the root cause of it so that you can be visible because we all buy from people. And I think I know myself, if I'm going to invest in somebody, I want to binge a load of their reels where they're talking. I will check out their website. I will look at their stories to see what kind of person they are, what they get up to behind the scenes, like in their real life as well, and see if they're in alignment to me. And then I'm going to check on their website to see like what their offers are and how I can work with them. So I think understanding that, that there are people who do look at those things and they do want to absorb your content rather than just see a load of faceless graphics that anyone could have created. It just helps to build that trust. So I think trust is so important, isn't it? It is. So two things I would say to that. So my first thing I was thinking as you were speaking there was this, this world is, becoming more AI, right? AI is really, really coming into the fold. And it's terrifying when you sometimes watch imagery or you watch videos and then somebody will later say, this is completely AI. And you're like, my God, how is that possible? And so for me, I think what I'm seeing personally is the more that AI is being introduced, the more that people are actually wanting authentic real content. So for example, if you're going to be a faceless brand, that's fine, but then no one is going to know who the person is behind it and the truth of whether it is AI generated or whether it's you. And so I think particularly if you're going to become like a property manager and you know, if we laid this back to property and you're going to build like get investors on board, for example, you're do all of that. If you're ever going to get an investor on board, they're going to need to see who you are. They are going to need to trust you. There's going to need to, if they're going to give you their five Hmo is for you to manage they are going to know who you are as a person because it will not come down I promise you to how pretty your logo was or how pretty your website was or how pretty anything else was it will come down to who you are as a person and your values matching their values and that that is where relationships happen is it's people on people and You know when I really think about this and I and again, I refer back to this and I tell you why I refer back to it is because of the results I actually saw, like the actual results that I saw, which is when the 10 girls went through the accelerator, I think I did marketing as module three. And in module three, what happened was, was that I basically did the strategy session first, asked all the girls to do something and I knew only half of them would do it. And I knew only half of them would do it. uh And then we did the visibility session, which was the fear of being visible. Why do you have that fear? And we went down a rabbit hole and we uncovered so many many things that the girls were going through and then we helped them to heal and everything and then all 10 of them the next day did it and they got over what it is that they want and I was like that's exactly what I wanted to see because it was it was literally evidence in it so I loved your idea Jackie just then which is why don't you start with with voice I think that's a fantastic idea but I think also it's this notion of um What my advice would be is, my action step for you all today would be go and have a look at people either offline or online, however you like to consume your information, your marketing, tell yourself or tell me or DM me or DM Jackie or whatever you want to do, what is it that you love about their marketing? What is it that inspires you? What particular reel did you really like? What particular post did you really like and why did you like it? And if you really sit and you think to yourself why you liked it, start thinking about how you yourself could actually make something similar to it and be inspired by it. Because I think Jackie, what people get really uh concerned about is that they think that they have to create brand new content, know, brand new ideas, brand new content. I've said this many times before and I'll say it again on this podcast. Sometimes I don't come up with brand new ideas. I literally look at what has inspired me on other people's content and how other people have done that and I've gone... you know that's a really really good idea I really like that I tell you what I'll take their idea and I will mold it into something that works for me so it's not it's not necessarily that I've come up with this brand new idea I've just take inspired by someone else's and thought I really like that I'm gonna give that a go so that could be an idea also everyone to just take let's say every single week three pieces of content and at the end of the week go how can I make that mine you know how can I make that something for my own brand, know, just as in some action steps for you all today. Yeah. And I think we're, it's really interesting because when you do your ideal client work so often it's like, it's a version of yourself. So if you can look into how you buy into things or how you get inspired by, what activates you to want to watch a reel or something, then that's going to naturally. be very similar to your client. think it's really important to know that your brand isn't just how things look. It's not about having polished content. It's about how people are going to feel when they experience you. So if that is sharing more of what you do behind the scenes on your day off, like at the weekends and stuff, that is how people are going to connect with you and build that connection. I think if you're ever creating content and people are then questioning, I wonder if that was AI. in what you're saying, how you're showing up, the imagery or anything, then you've already started to lose that trust with them anyway. So I think the more you can just share who you are without worrying about people judging you, because most people in your audience aren't going to judge you at all. They'll be there to support you. The more you'll get more confident doing it as well. It's that repetition, isn't it? Mm. And then Jackie, just to, just to finish off, so I think it's as important to say also is, you know, there came a point in, in my own business, as it were, where I said to myself, you know, I had this website that I basically built like a year. No, I think I built it like the first year and like, I'm happy to admit I hated that website. think, I think I said to every single person I sent to the website originally, I was like, I apologize for the website. I'm not, I'm not a website designer, but here's some information. Um, and now when I send people to the website. and again I should say www.girlsandproperty.co.uk go check it out it just is me in every way shape or form and it is just beautiful and you did the most incredible job of it and for those are listening to this that are in sort of that that that area of their life now you know they've had their business they've got their business but everyone's dropping into their DMs and everything's a bit heavy and a bit like, and they needed this place to like just send them to, to be like, here is all the information you need. If you want property management, if you want to invest with us, if you want to do this, or if you're a business owner and you're like, want to work with you, I want to join your community, why is it that the website, or not why, what are the most essential elements if somebody is going to build a website? What do they need to have in it and have there? I think the online space is so noisy and I think social media is such a powerful thing to have. It's free. It's an amazing way we can market ourselves, get ourselves out there and get ourselves visible. But we have to remember we don't own it. We don't own our social media accounts. So if your account got lost tomorrow and you're fully reliant on that and your DMs and that's how you onboard clients, we have conversations and you've lost it. What is your backup? Where else are you? So The website that you have is essentially your shop window. It's the place where people can find out all the information they need, which makes your life so much easier. So the purpose of a website is that anybody, whether it is a collaboration, whether it's a client, whether it's an investor, whoever it is, can literally click a link and they've got your shop window and they can browse and they can get a feel for who you are. They can understand how they can work with you. They can fill in a form, they can contact, they've got everything they need on that one platform. And the best thing about your website is you own it. You literally own your website, whereas you don't own social media. So I think when you can direct people, when the natural next step is like an automated, if you comment this word, then we'll send you a DM and then that can link people into a website page or something. It just makes your life so much easier. So instead of trying to remember to respond to somebody in the DMs, you've got the automation and you've got the website there that is giving them everything that they need. Obviously people will still have questions even when you've got it on your website, but it just makes your life easier that for the majority. they will have a look on there. a good website is, has to first of all look good because you've got a split second to make a first impression. People will judge you based on what your website looks like. So if I go on a website, it doesn't look professional or it looks really outdated or I'm not really clear what they do from the very first like half a scroll on their homepage, I'm not going to go any further. So I'll go away and find somebody that does. You want people, a bit like when you go into your favorite shop and you're just like sucked in, let's just imagine it's &S. You walk into M &S, they've got the lovely branding, they've got the same kind of layout in their store, you are sucked into the bakery because it smells so amazing. It's literally an experience. They want you to go through the shop, pick up as many things as possible. It's why the sandwiches are always in the middle or towards the back of the shop. They want you to browse and go through all of the different, go past all the other stuff so that you can pick up more things and essentially make the business more money. So it's the same with your website. So your website should be designed in a way that it instantly speaks to your ideal client. that it then flows. And I know Athena, we had some back and forth, didn't we, during the website design where you were saying, I want this call to action to link to this form. And I'm like, no, no, no. What you need on this page is this link needs to go to the bottom of the page. You want to keep people on the site. And it's about really understanding the flow of the website, how it needs to be a real system. It is a system in itself that you want your audience to go through to the right channels. When they land on your homepage, what is the clear call to action? If you've got one way of working with you, then clearly that call to action needs to go to click here to find out how to work with me. If you've got multiple spaces, then give them the options. Like how can they find out about working with you? Like what are your different options? If you just have a podcast, how can they listen to it? Have it really easy so that people can click to what they need to very quickly. So design is essential with a website because it has to look good. People do make a judgment and I'm not talking about perfection here. I'm talking about it being something that people go on and they just think, yeah, want to learn from this person. She's a pro. Like how she's showing up, how she's delivering herself, how she's positioning herself in her industry. Like she clearly knows what she's talking about. It builds that instant trust. But not only does it need to look good and part of having a really good visual website is good imagery, like if you've never had a photo shoot done before, please, please, please make sure that you have one. You could just have a mini shoot and I'm not talking about corporate hand, arms folded, like headshot type thing. I'm talking about photos that really share you and who you are in whichever version that is. Maybe you do have different versions where you're like a mum, so you're a bit more relaxed. Maybe you do wear a suit to work or something, like whatever it looks like, but show you, like show your essence of you and who you are. But the most important thing for a website is making sure that people can actually find it. You would not believe how many websites I go on and order and there is no SEO, there's no keywords, none of the images have been named. Like the actual website cannot even be found on Google or it's going to be in the depths like collecting dust. So I think it's about understanding that actually what goes on behind the scenes. And I know like I spent a whole day on the girls and property website, just doing this hidden work that nobody sees. but it's what helps you to get to like position one on Google. So, um and not only Google is it needs to also be showing up in search results in AI. People are using AI all the time to give them advice on things. So we want to make sure that if people were searching on any AI channel that uh I want to start a business in property or I want to start investing in property, like where do I get started? That girls in property stands a much better chance of showing up because of all the work we've done behind the scenes. So. Yes, you can use AI to create a website in 10 minutes. Yes, you can use Wix to create your own website using a template and it's going to cost you a fraction. But it's also then flipping that around and thinking, but what is that actually costing your business in doing that? It's going to take you more time to do it because you're then building a website based on what you think works because AI has done it for you or you've got this template. So let's just go with that. But it also is potentially costing you it not being visible and Is it designed in a way that actually works for you? So all of my websites have always been bespoke. I've never ever had templates. I've just always felt really uncomfortable having a template because I just don't think one template is going to work for everybody. yeah, that kind of just summarizes the importance of having a website, but it really is such a powerful thing. You don't need one, but the benefits of having one far outweigh like just relying on social media. Yeah, so couple of couple of things just to say about that Jackie, because I love it. So number one SEO guys, if anyone's interested is search engine optimization. So just just if anyone there is like, what's an SEO? That's what it is. So just make sure that that you do that. Yes, Jackie. So I'll you, I'll tell you what's really interesting, though. So I agree with everything that you said. And I think that again, I come back to this notion, right. And I keep coming back to this notion. It's so important for everyone to hear us when we say this. everything has a season of life, right? A season of life, a season of growth. And so what's really important for all the listeners to do is to say, because I tell you what, I'll tell you why Jackie, I know so many women, right? Who are now gonna say, right, Jackie's just said that I need a website, I'm now gonna go create a website. And actually that's not where they are. They're not there in their business. And what happens is that everybody gets analysis paralysis. And I know so many, so many women who have analysis paralysis and what they're doing is they are lying to themselves. And I'm going to say this ladies, you're all lying to yourself. What you're doing is you're keeping yourself small and you're keeping yourself safe and you're keeping yourself in the harbor and you are not meant to stay in the harbor. You are meant to go and you are meant to fly. I did not get to 120 community members with a beautiful website. Didn't happen. I did not mentor. over like 20 people with a beautiful website. That didn't happen. I did all of those things with the most disgusting website you've ever seen in your entire life that I absolutely despise, right? Because it wasn't the website that actually got me to the dance. It was me that got me to the dance. It was me putting myself out there every day. It was me going to networking events. It was me cold calling the agents. It was me doing all those things. That is what you need to do first in order to grow your business, right? then what happens is, I, in fact I'm gonna do something right now. I want you all to only ever, sorry Jackie, but I do have to do this for, I'm sorry Jackie, but I do have to do this for some of the girls, because they are, otherwise they are gonna go the other way, okay? I almost don't want you to really create this until you almost are in a point where you, you're like, I now have to make this because I've got so much work on, that I can't respond to all these DMs and all these people that keep coming forward to me, so. I have to create a website that I can then direct them to to give them the information about me. But I don't want you to now spend months and months and months creating this website when you don't even have your first client. Like go and get your clients, build up your pot, build up your money and then go and do it. Because I think that people exist in this information overwhelm. This em shiny penny syndrome this oh that sounds nice let's build a website wonderful pretty colors and canvass and palettes no go and make some goddamn money and go and do the work that you're meant to do and take action today and then once you do that then speak to Jackie and be like Jackie I've done what Athena said I've got these many clients the life is wonderful now I need your help as Athena's had in terms of really developing that and taking it forward I think that we have to have balance in life, you know, like a Libra, like we literally have to have like a balance in scale. So, um, but yes, website really important at the right time, I would say. more, couldn't agree more. And I think like the women that I work with are very much in that scaling stage. So it is that energetic, here's my website. I feel a bit embarrassed by it it's so outdated. So it is that point of it's the energy piece. Whereas when you are in that first stage and you do need to get those clients in, you can absolutely get those in. Like just have those conversations, get in the rooms, like make those connections. And then yeah, like obviously your website is such a powerful way to scale and elevate who you are, but you can't. A strong website isn't going to come when you don't know your clear message, you don't have the client testimonials, you haven't got the clear imagery and everything. yeah, definitely work it the other way around. So do the website and elevate that when you are ready to. Absolutely and just think to yourself everybody ask yourself a question have you ever bought a high-priced ticket thing from a person or a company that actually doesn't have a website? So think to yourself about how many things you've ever bought that were never through a website. They were through a link on social media or they were through something else. And some of you will actually sit there and go, Athena, you, and I'll go, I know I'm telling you me. Right. So I want you to think about that. spent, I'll you what, recently I've spent 12,000 pounds on something recently with a person, no website. Not a website insight. Literally. I just literally bonded with the person. I was like, this is the person that I want to work with. This is how I want us to do this work. This is how I want to go forward with it. And I was like, great, let's go. Let's do it. Didn't need a website. I just needed to have the in-person connection. I needed to understand them. I needed to feel their energy. I needed to the alliance with them. So really do that. But just a caveat, once again, it's really important is if you do want to check out the website, because you are interested to see Jackie's gorgeous, gorgeous work and you want to see how it can be done really well in terms of messaging, in terms of imagery and you want to almost like use a template as an example to base your own website on, then feel free to check out www.girlsinproperty.co.uk. It's got everything on there from the podcast to the community to why I even started it in the first place to working with me. I have so many different ways you can work with me that I bet barely any of you actually know. So please go click on the work with me section and you'll be able to see. have online course that I've just built called the Girls and Property Online Foundation course. This is if you're starting out in property and you're like, Athena, I need a self-paced course that you can teach me, I can learn from that's in there. We've got the accelerator program for newbies who want to do group mentoring. I've got the mastermind for those who are scaling and buying businesses. I've got 90 minute blueprint calls. If you just want to spend 90 minutes with me, it is all there. So go and check out the website and then message me if you want to have further conversation. Jackie, I would love to leave you with the parting words for today. So what are your parting words for everyone listening? I think your birthright is you have the birthright to take centre stage, to live your most abundant full happy life. So I think if you can start taking even small steps to take in centre stage in your life, to be seen heard and paid highly for what it is that you do, then just go for it. Start with that mirror work. If it's a really small step like that, just whatever you can do to start making yourself priority, I promise you it is going to reward you tenfold in the future. Oh God, I love that. It is your birthright. I am here for that. Do you know, it's funny, I I often hear people say all the time. I say people, say, I hear a person say all the time. They always say it is your God given birthright, your God given birthright in order to shine, in order to be. And we don't say that enough as women. We really don't. And I think that that's why I love this podcast is to really, really say that. And I love that you just said that Jackie. So many people are going to want to work with you. They are. are gonna wanna get in contact with you, which I highly recommend. This is my recommendation ladies, go and check out Jackie, she is absolutely fantastic. Where can people find you? I'm on Instagram the most so you can find me at Jackie Laws or head to my website jachylaws.com There you go. I love it. And as always guys, know, girls and property, please check it out. If you'd like to join the girls and property community as well, then again, read all about it on the website and read all about what is included within it. But essentially we do fortnightly calls, whether it would be about property, whether it's about your business. Um, we have a library now of all the information in there. I guarantee you any strategy you want to learn about or any conversation you want to have, I guarantee it is in that library because of every conversation that we've had so far. And if it's not in there, feel free to message me and I will find someone that will come and have that exact conversation that you are seeking. But come and join the community. We're over 130 women now from all over the UK. So it's wonderful because when you all kind of like introduce yourself, you all instantly like connect within your areas, which is beautiful. Some of you would have seen on my stories that me and the London girls actually went out, we went to an R &B brunch, which was so much fun. We went out to dinner. So we, this is for me, is all about really meaningful connections. really is. It extends beyond property and it comes down to us as women that I really, really want to take this forward. Um, and then I'm going to be doing some biteside podcasts in there exclusively for the podcast as well. And of course we do have, the next cohort for the girls and property accelerator program happening on Thursday, the 30th of April. We've only got a few spaces left, but if you've ever thought to yourself about starting out in property and you're like, Athena, something feels sticky and something feels really heavy and it's just not working out. I guarantee you the missing piece that you probably have is where you think that you know what strategy you want to do, but your subconscious work is not aligned. And so what we need to do is we need to marry up strategy with subconscious to literally create the winning formula. And I have just graduated with my, um I graduated as well for my own program. My girls have just graduated from the program and it has been the most, it's probably apart from the community, it is probably the second thing that I am the most proud of in my life is creating this accelerator program because of the way that it has changed women's lives. And I say that with heart and you we do our lives and you can check out our lives on Instagram where you can actually see some of the girls coming on to talk about their experiences. And I will forever, forever be so proud that I was able to serve them. in the way that they needed serving and I'm so unbelievably just overcome with emotion when I think about it. So if you want any information about that, then do check out the website again, girlsandproperty.co.uk with the accelerator in there. And of course just DM me the word accelerator and I can talk to you more about it. But we do begin Thursday the 30th of April. So don't leave it too long. We've only got a couple of spaces left because I cap it at 10. And then of course I will see some of you at the Girls and Property Retreat on Friday 24th of April as well, which is my God, round the corner. But yeah, Jackie, thank you so much for today. Thank you for coming on and giving up your time for Easter. Ladies and gentlemen, I love you all. Thank you so much for listening. Feel free to message us. Go and be your best selves, because as Jackie says, it is your God given birthright. Go and do it today. Take action, implement, and let's go be fabulous. Have an amazing week. Take care, everyone. Love you lots. Bye.