Could Property Management Be Your Way Into the Industry? with Amanda Woodward

What if losing your job was actually the beginning of everything?

For so many women, the idea of getting into property feels overwhelming, too complex, too expensive, too much to figure out while you're already juggling everything else. But what if the biggest leap you ever took started not from a place of confidence, but from necessity?

In this episode of Girls in Property I'm joined by Amanda Woodward, a seasoned property investor and manager with over 15 years of experience, who went from redundancy in 2010 to building a diversified portfolio that's stood the test of time and life.

Amanda gets honest about what it really takes to start and scale in property management. She talks about her very first deal in Stoke-on-Trent, what hunger and action taught her that no course ever could, and why knowing when to pivot, from HMOs to serviced accommodation to larger developments has been one of her greatest business assets. Because strategy isn't about picking one lane and staying in it forever. It's about reading the road and being willing to change direction.

We also get into the practical stuff how to set up a property management business even with limited funds, why outsourcing and systemisation aren't luxuries but survival tools, and how AI and technology are quietly transforming the way property portfolios are run. Not just theory. Real, actionable steps you can take right now.

And for the women listening who are doing all of it, the job, the family, the ambition. Amanda speaks directly to you. She shares her own experience of balancing motherhood, a career, and building something of her own, and why celebrating your progress (not just your destination) is what keeps the momentum alive.

If you've been waiting for a sign to start, to scale, or to simply keep going, this is it.

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Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. Right, are you ready for today's episode? We are going to be kicking straight in because we have a lot to get through for all of you today because what we're going to be talking about is all around property management. The do's, the don'ts, the good, the bad, the ugly, you know how I like to make it work. And funny enough, this person actually who I'm going to be inviting you on has her own podcast. which is fab, but this is the first time that she is actually going to be a guest on a podcast. And I can tell you it is a completely different ball game when you go from being the presenter to actually being the guest, because when you're presenting it you're hosting it, you kind of know what's coming. You kind of know what you're saying. Whereas when you're on the receiving end of it, you're like, my God, how is this going to be perceived? And as I said to her, this is unedited. This is raw. This is real. So we're just going to give you everything today. And I know that we have a jam packed session for you. And what's beautiful is when I was originally speaking to Amanda about coming on and saying about what we really wanted to get out of this episode, I know so many of you listening to this are currently in this stage where you're either thinking about or actually wanting or doing property management. So you are managing other people's properties, you are controlling their assets, or you're thinking to yourself that's a fantastic caveat in order to get into the industry. because you might not have that deposit for your first property. It might be you want to gain some experience. And so what we want to really do today is show you, you will understand very soon by the way, why I wanted to get Amanda on because of her wealth of experience in this. And she really has that. And she can really show so many of you how we can do this in an efficient way. And also some bits that can then lead into other things and investors and all sorts. So. It's jam packed, we're ready to go. are like, hold your horses and yeah, just really looking forward to it. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce Amanda Woodward. Hey Amanda. Hi, Asina. Thank you for having me. Of course. my God. I'm so looking forward to today because today is going to be all around just those golden nuggets, those, those aha moments, those, my God, brilliant. And I know that this is going to be such a well downloaded episode. So I'm ready when you're ready. Are you ready? Okay. So first of all, a lot of people, think within girls and property might not know who you are. So I think the best thing to do is actually explain why I've invited you on here today to really showcase all of the knowledge that you have, as it were, because you have a wealth of knowledge, Amanda. And I think it's great for people to know your story, know how you got into property, your expertise in property management, and then we can take the conversation from there. Super, brilliant. Well, thanks again for inviting me on. So let me cast my mind back to 2010. So we're in our 15th year now. And I had been made redundant from my current job, a job which I absolutely loved. And I had one of those kind of line in the sand moments, those decisions that we often get faced with in terms of what's my next move. And my next move was either to remain and look for another job or to take that bold step into starting a business. And in 2010, those of you that have been around long enough or that you're old enough to remember was just after the uh financial crash of 2008, big global financial meltdown. People were losing their jobs left, right and center. Companies were closing. I was in that sort of situation. And whilst most people would have looked for that safe and secure job, I, like I often do, take that sort of leap of faith of, I think I'm gonna start a business. And that was what I was reading, that's what I was listening, and it was what type of business is that going to be? So like many people, I found myself in a property seminar of some sort, listening to people talk about property, and I thought, right, that's gonna be it for me. I'm gonna build a property business. So I told my family and my friends, and they just thought, are you crazy? You know nothing about property. This is just completely out of your, you know, knowledge zone or comfort zone. I said, I don't care. I'm in. So that's rewinding back 15 years. as you all probably know, Athena, sometimes you make those bold decisions in your mind, but then you've actually got to go and start doing it. So I thought, yeah, property is going to be for me. So I did a bunch of education, got stuck in and, and started buying property and living. in London at the time, I quickly realized that London wasn't going to be where I wanted to buy or I could even afford to buy. So I ended up looking in the Midlands in the north of England and started buying buy to let properties and that was 15 years ago. So there's been a whole journey through the last 15 years. So the very whistle stop tour is that started buying buy to let's and built up a portfolio of buy to let's then um liked the idea of HMOs, like the idea of cash flow, started buying HMOs. And I was doing that with joint venture partners with angel investors started out with very, very limited funds, really just hustling and grinding and trying to build this business whilst the sort of financial meltdown was happening around me. Everything we was buying was repossessions. And we, you know, amass and I say we it was a friend who turned into a business partner who turned into a life partner. So there's a whole journey that happened alongside this as well, which is the wonderful poll, which I'll probably talk about at some point. So we're on this journey together. We realized that we couldn't find any good management for HMOs. So that's where the management idea came from. And that was probably about 10 years or so ago now. So we have the properties we're buying, we have the HMOs, we thought we're to go into HMO management for ourselves initially. And something I want to talk to talk today for your listeners is about the opportunities that come once you're doing stuff. You know, there's a of opportunities that once you're active, you start to see. So we thought management was a huge opportunity because if we're struggling for management, other people will be as well. And this is when HMOs weren't so, eh what's the word, not desirable, but they weren't so on trend as much as they were now. So we were doing them and a few others, but it wasn't such a mass market strategy. So we started the management company. We also were sourcing deals at the time as well, because hopefully some of your listeners, if they're active, they might also be finding deals that they don't want to buy. They might be sourcing them on. So we're buying, sourcing, managing, and we were doing that and that's worked out really well. Then another line in the sand moment, Brexit happened. All of our HMO tenants were Eastern European at the time. No tenants, well, not quite no tenants, but less tenants. So we had to pivot a little bit. And I would like to talk about pivoting today because I think that's often the only way to be successful in business long term is to pivot when you need to be pivoted. We started service accommodation. So we added the service accommodation boat to the business. We then went on to do some larger developments and a few other bits and pieces along the way. So the whistle stop tour is we've done quite a lot. We've done quite a lot of strategies. um But what probably most excites me is the business opportunities along Beautiful. I love that. I love hearing people's stories. It's so much fun And you know what you use my favorite word Amanda my favorite word in the whole wide world apart Yeah, yeah, let's go with it is is the word pivot, know pivot pivot is massive So I am that I am that person that puts every single meme going of that friends where they're like pivoting the couch You know like Ross and Chandler and Rachel and I am that girl I'm like right pivot and I and I've said on so many podcasts and I've said in so many of my community sessions that I do, I never accept this word when people say, I'm having a bit of a wobble. I'm having a bit of a wobble. I'm not quite sure. I'm like, no, you're not having a wobble. You need to pivot. That's what you need to do. Literally, like with your feet, just pivot. And so with you just saying that, I was like, oh, music's my ears. I'm like, yes. Yeah, and you know, I did that as well. So I was doing rent rent HMOs and I did that for a bit of time and then I pivoted because I live I used to live in Bournemouth into rent rent service accommodation because the market was shifting as well. So it really is that notion of it. One question I've got for you, I just written a couple of bits down. So one thing I wrote down was, do you remember your first property that you ever bought? Like the very first one? Okay, so because I remember the first property I ever bought, right? So with that first property, What would you say was like your biggest lesson that you took from that first property? a good question. That's a good question. to remind myself of it, so it was a flip deal. It was in Stoke-on-Trent. It was on a road called Fairfield Avenue. And this was, and this is going to make me sound really ancient. This was when really they used to promote properties for sale in the newspaper. I'm sure they still do that in the local newspapers, but that was really like the strategy is the ad in the newspaper this week. And we bought it, renovated it and sold it. It was my very first deal. I would say my biggest lesson there, Athena, was we bought the property for cash and we pulled in. We were so scrappy back then. I had 8,000 from someone, 10,000 from someone, 20,000 from someone else. We were so scrappy because we didn't have the investors set up, but I was so hungry to do the deal that it was like, there's no way this one is getting away from us. And it was really quite good because we bought it for 75. I remember that clearly. And I think it sold for about 120 something. There was about 20 grand profit. By the time it got split, I'm sure we all got about 3000 each. It wasn't hardly, you know, a wealth creator for us, but I was started, I was in the game and I proved to myself and others, this thing is real and it works. So my biggest lesson there probably was to, it was just the harnessing the hunger and don't be scared to talk to people, don't be scared to ask for money. We just got scrappy with it. And we did the deal and then we were off to the races and this the self belief that came from that. Oh, I thought I was, you know, property on property entrepreneur of the year after doing that. So much belief in it. So yeah, that's sort of a long winded answer to your question. But I'd say that's probably my lesson was to, yeah, to stay hungry and take action. Take action, that's the main thing, absolutely. And the other thing that I love that you said was actually, you learn when you actually do. Because I think what happens is a lot of people stay stuck in the theory, because in my opinion, they get analysis paralysis and it's safe. So they think that they're taking action, they think that they're moving forwards by getting all this education, which absolutely is essential, by the way, we must get educated, we've all been educated, but we must then actually take action with that education and not get, as I always say, don't get information overwhelmed. but you implement. And one thing you said there is actually as you were doing it, you were learning about the HMOs. You realize that there wasn't actually very good HMO management. So what I love is the fact that I've written here down, like you saw a gap in the market, but you're like, hold on a minute. There is a gap here that we need to fill. And you basically went in, went and filled it. And I love that because it's the same for how girls and property was formed. You know, so back in 2022 when I was investing, there was so many men in the industry and I was like, where are all the women? And at the time, back in 2022, there were no female property podcasts, no female property networking events. I went searching for them and obviously then created girls and property as a result in that because I saw a gap in the market. And I think that that's where the beauty of life comes from is when you really can see that and you really can then push that forward. So love it and love the story. So before we dive into this, this notion of, then the property management side of things, eh Amanda, what would you say at this moment in time? Cause as part of girls and property, and I don't know how you feel about this, actually, I love your opinion about this. For someone like you who I can, I can associate it is very, it's very quick minded and scrappy and all of that. And I love it. Do you ever take time to just, sit and really reflect and celebrate and really think to yourself like I just did a thing that's really cool or are you the type of person that goes right that's done and you're already thinking about the next thing which way do you go? do the reflection. That was great. I'm just on to the next. I don't know why. I think, no, to be honest, actually, in the early days, I think we did, because it was such an achievement. You know, every win was just mind blowing because, you know, I didn't think that I would own a property portfolio, develop buildings, you know, build companies that wasn't really my set path. And when I say set path, mean, I'm a big believer now that you don't have to finish where you started. A lot, you know, a lot of people do. And where I started is not where you want to finish. And I knew from the beginning, there is something else out there for me. But even when it was happening, it was like, oh my God, I've got another property and I've got another investor. And it was, it was mind blowing. I think as you develop, you do that less or I say you, I do that less and I'm kind of okay with that. I do take a moment annually to reflect but it's not something that I do in the moment and I don't know whether that's a good thing or not. I'm the same. I'm the same. think just life is life is busy and you know, as entrepreneurs like it is extremely fast paced and we have to it feels like sometimes we're keeping up with things but it's funny, you know, because we've we've done celebrations on the podcast since the day that we started recording back in January 15 2023. And it's something that I hold so dear to girls and property because I really feel when I ask this question and I always ask every guest that I always get on like, what are you celebrating? They always do, they always come forward with something, but at the same time they're like, oh, that's a really, it's a really difficult question. And of course it's a celebration of business. It's a celebration of life, whatever it may be, but it's beautiful to hear actually what everyone is celebrating. So what would you say at this moment then, if you were to reflect, what are you celebrating? I would say I'm celebrating time in the business. We know that businesses can struggle. We know that a lot of businesses fail. You probably know the stat in the first couple of years. Most businesses don't make it. when we got to that sort of, it happened first when we got to 10 years. I thought, wow, 10 years, that's a lot of time. I was employed working in a job for seven years. That's the longest time of employment that I've had. So at 10 years, was like, okay, well, I'm now more on the other side of things. This isn't really just like my side hustle anymore. This is a proper business. And then at sort of 15 years, at the back end of last year, I thought, know, we're still here. We've made it. You know, a lot of people in property start, they do a bit and then they stop. I see that a lot. Buy a few houses, stop. and we've continued to grow through that period. only up until a couple of years ago, we did our largest deal today in terms of size and value. we've now got more companies than we ever had before. So just really celebrating, staying in the game, um, still being active and still, still loving it. Um, so I'm celebrating that, you know, and if, if I stopped loving it, I'll stop. If we all want to do anything that we don't enjoy. but I still do very much love what we're doing. I think I'm also celebrating progress. So when I say where you start is not where you have to stop. If I cast my mind back a lot longer now, say 25 years, and I attended the largest comprehensive school in Southeast London, which I'll tell you, Athena, it wasn't the sort of school that you send your child to. And it was not the sort of place where successful business owners started. And I just knew that that start, okay, fine, I'm grateful for the start. That's not the finishing plan for me. So I'm celebrating, I think, the pivots, the massive life pivots along the way. And there's been tons, there's been tons of different moments where you think I could go left or right here and made what I hope was the right decision. So yeah, think celebrating, pushing for more, for difference, for better outcomes. I love that. absolutely love that. And Joe's pretty interesting for me, Amanda, the more I'm listening to you, the more similarities I'm actually finding between me and you. So my previous job was for seven years. I was a premium travel consultant. I was also made redundant in that job because of COVID. So similarities there. And then funny enough, the story that you just said there about going to a school that you're like, trust me, you don't want to have sent anyone to this school. So I grew up in Northwest London, right? So in Northwest London, went to, if anyone is in Northwest London, you're to know school. I went to Coptal school for girls. So at Coptal it's 3,000 girls in the high school, so it's 3,000 and literally there's a school photo, I joke about it all the time right, which used to live in my mum's house, so it's a school photo and I remember I did my hair for the day, I did my makeup for the day to be in this school photo. Amanda, I am literally like the size of like half a P in this photo in this school photo people like where are you? I'm like you see that little like tiny little thing there like you can't even see your face I'm like yeah because they had to get 3,000 girls in this photo and it's just the funniest thing and I remember being in this school which was a catchment area school so there no exam to get in which is why I got in because I failed all of the school exams because I'm rubbish at verbal and nonverbal reasoning because I'm heavily dyslexic so nobody wanted me and I remember being in class one day where a girl climbed out of the window in history, which was like three floors high, and went across to the other classroom. I remember a girl who was 15 years old. em No, wasn't 15. Was she 15? She was 15 or 16. She was one of those because it was under 16, something like that. But I remember her coming to one of the mock exams that we had to do and she brought her baby with her. She brought her baby. and she said, nobody can babysit my baby, so I need you to hold my baby while I sit this mock exam. And I remember the examiner taking the baby and going out of the room so that she could take her exam, fair play to the girl. And I was just like, this is so interesting. And I remember I was that girl that loved to learn, loved to learn, loved education, all of that. And I was forever bullied and taken the piss out of at school because I was the girl that wanted to get educated. I was the one who was there like, let's all just listen to the teacher. Let's all just learn. And then they would be like, shut up, Athena. They flicking cat me. They'd be like, get out of the classroom. And so when you're saying like, where you begin is not where you end. I hear you 100 % because I'm like, this ain't my life, this ain't my story. Like I know that there is more in me than this. And it is just fascinating to hear the similarities there um and it, and you know, it leads me into what I'm actually gonna be celebrating at the moment, which is I'm celebrating my Facebook memories page, right? because my memories on Facebook coming up at the moment, they are flying in and it's like one year ago, two years ago, three years ago. And I'm like, how is that a year ago? Like how is that a year ago? Or how is that two years ago? And you know, it's the most beautiful thing when you're about celebrations because you're like, sometimes you don't realise like how far you've come. And for me, I'm, I literally evolve week on week at the moment, but year on year, month on month, like people who know me will know Athena, you literally become a different person every time we see you. Because for me, I'm in that growth phase of my business and also my life. And so there are so many things that are happening in my personal life that are changing my business life. And I think that should be celebrated where you do evolve and you do change and you do grow. And as you said, where you start, it's not where you end up. So I think that's a beautiful way to bring all of that together in a. in a celebration. So yes to celebrating life and everything in it. So Amanda, let's talk then about property management. So as I said, a lot of the girls and guys listening to this today are going to be thinking about property management, getting into it, setting it up. So if you were to take somebody who was sat in front of you right now, who said, Hi, Amanda, I'm looking to start my property journey. uh I don't have enough money to buy property at the moment, but I really want to control assets. I want to do some property management. What are the top three tips you can give for me for starting out? What would you say? Good. Okay. So let me just think about that for a second. So, um, I would say tip, uh, top tip number one, be different. Okay. Be different. Find your niche, find something that you can bring a new fresh to your landlords. So Athena on property management, could be, could it be rent to rent as well as just management? could be to do property management. So you've got your rent to rent angle, we didn't do rent to rent. And the reason was, was because we were already buying. So we kind of skipped the right the right, sorry, the rent to rent stage, and went straight to managing properties for landlords. Now, I don't know how many people start off like that. I think they think they have to do rent to rent. Now rent to rent is far more profitable, as you'll know, because you have you have a rent to rent business. But obviously, it's dependent on you. closing the landlord on your vision on what it is that you're going to be doing. On the property management side, we found it a little bit easier to attract landlords because they were looking for management anyway. So a landlord comes along, he's got a four bedroom HMO or a five bedroom HMO, he needs to have it managed. He doesn't necessarily have to go down the rent to rent road with you, he can just go down, I will be your property manager. Now, most people don't go down that road because they think the margins are too slim and the margins are kind of slim. So tip number one is be different. The reason that you need to be different is because you need to try and increase your margins. So you don't just want to charge somebody 10 % or 12 % management as your only income stream for that property. Okay. So you've got to find something else that you can bring to that landlord. So for example, we would bring to them m So yes, we do do property management, but we also do sourcing. So we can help you build a portfolio as well, and then we will manage it for you. Okay, tick, I like that. Or we will do something a bit different. So we will do say, service accommodation management for you. Not many people are doing that unless they're doing rent to service accommodation, they're not just managing the property. So we would do service accommodation. So I'd be looking... How can you add more value to that landlord than anybody else? That would be my tip number one. You're doing it because one, you want to add value to the landlord, but two, you need to increase your margins. So that'd be my tip number one. Tip number two, would say is go specialist and niche in your area. So we started in Stoke-on-Trent 15 years ago. We're still in Stoke-on-Trent now. I don't plan to be here forever. And maybe year 20 might be my, do I need to do any more deals in Stoke-on-Trent year? Sorry, 2030. But be niche in your area so you can become a specialist. Because I think everybody loves a specialist. Okay. So don't do London, don't do the whole of Manchester. You know, be a specialist in this particular area. So that would be my tip number two. So Tip number one, be different, add more value. Tip number two, be specialist. Tip number three, would say, let me think about this one, for getting started. I'm not sure if I've got a tip number three, Athena. I think those two are my sort of key, key things. Add value, increase your margins, be specialist. I think they were my two things. Could I maybe add one then of what worked for me? Would that be okay? Was for me, it was also all about relationship building, which I think a lot of people just, they miss it, don't they? I feel like this bit, this bit gets missed all the time. Whereas for me, the reason that I, because I ended up doing property management as well as a sort of French friend. And the reason it worked was because they were bringing it to us, to me basically. And I had a business partner at time. So I had, did them on my own that had business partners. So I say they bring them to us, they bring them to me because they were like, we like you, we trust you. Because I think personally, the reason that people go with people like us, instead of let's say Connell's or Saddle's or whoever is because they're fed up of them. They're literally fed up of being number 165 on a person's list that they might speak to Craig one day, Neville the next, you know, whereas they're like, no, Athena, I just want to give it to you. I trust you. I know you're going to do a good job for me. You know, how you do anything is how you do everything and how you show up. And I know how to reach you. So I don't know. What do you think about relationships? What's your opinion on that one? And to be honest, for the first, well, even, even now for the, for about 10 years, we didn't really advertise. We're a property management company. We didn't have boards. We didn't advertise. Our tenants came for us through word of mouth. Our investors came to us through word of mouth. And only now, because we're in a particular part of our business now where we're looking to scale it. quickly and in different areas as well. We're doing a little bit of marketing, but it's minimal. So yes, I totally agree. Relationships when people hear that you're doing a good thing. And for us, for HMOs, people were really struggling with management in our area. And we filled that void. And then they continue to then buy because they had the uncertainty that we could then manage. So there was a nice symbiotic relationship there. with the landlords building their business and then having us, the relationship with us to manage it. So yeah, for sure. I'll go with that. I'll take your tip. Three, relationship. Yay, love that, love that. Okay, brilliant. And then let's really think about this because I've managed HMOs, right? I've managed service accommodation. um It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, Amanda. So I'd like them to hear it from you and your experience as it were. So let's say that somebody's like, right, I've written down the top three points. I hear you, I'm gonna take action. This all sounds fantastic. What is then the reality of Once they actually get somebody to agree to pay them and manage their property and they actually go in, what do they need to be aware of in terms of the correct systems, the correct processes, power team members in order to set up a really successful management company? is a good question. that is, that could have so many answers that question. So let me just try and try and package it. So the way that I look at property management is you've got on the ground management and then you've got, let's call it office management for now. Okay. Now for HMOs, which I would recommend for property management because by to let starting as a bike let management company. It's gonna take a long time to get those units in the margins are slim unless you're in a high value area. So I wouldn't really focus on that. I'll be looking for the high em revenue properties because you're a percentage of revenue. So you want the revenue as high as possible. So let's say we're doing HMO. So you've got em on the ground and you've got office. So for office, we did something quite radical 10 years ago, not radical now, but we set up offshore. And as of today, we have 15 members of staff all in the Philippines. And we decided that if we were going to do this property management company, because bear in mind, we actually did it, we were almost forced to do it. wasn't actually here's a massive opportunity. It was, we need to sort ourselves out with property management. Actually, I think there's an opportunity here. So it did have a slightly different slum. So I didn't want to do it. I knew that I didn't want to be the boots on the ground. I didn't want to be stuck in the office doing all the admin. So I had to find a solution. So my solution was to outsource. So, but even somebody now starting out, I would say, look at what is going to be your on the ground operation. What's going to be your outsourced operation and outsource early. Outsourcing is cheap. Even if you're not making money initially yourself whilst you're setting up, I would still recommend doing that and have build up your outsource team. because you can do it yourself, but you're just going to end up in a little bit of a muddle. So get that team set up early. What are those systems look like? Well, everything's got to be systemized to the T and post May when the renters rights act comes in. I said to my partner the other day, running a property management company now, it feels like I'm running a law firm. It's so regulated. There is so much detail. So you have to be up for that. you've got to be up for all the regulations. You've got to understand the regulations because if you're leading your team, they need to know that you've got their back and you basically know everything and you're going to pour that information into them. um But there's lots of ways that you can get that. You can get all that information online. can join with the NRLA. There's lots of ways, networking groups, communities like yourselves that you can stay in full. that you've got to get informed if you're going into this space and then pour that into your outsource model so they can run the back end of it. You've then got to do boots on the ground and you will probably do that yourself to start with. So you've got to be up for that. You've got to be up for knocking on a tenant's bedroom door and going in and doing inspection. I think you have got to be quite tenacious. You've got to be, you've got to be up for it. You know, this isn't going to be initially. Property management is not going to be behind a desk initially. You will then be able to get somebody else to replace you on the ground. And depending on how quickly you scale will depend on how quickly you can kind of exit yourself from the day to day. Not from the business, but just from that physical, know, doing the fire alarm tests, doing the check-in, doing the view-ins, because I don't think there's anyone that's going to sign up and say, I can't wait to build a business where I do tenant management. It's not. you know, what we, I think ultimately we're all excited about. We're excited about the profit. We're excited about the business. We're excited about the possibilities. We're not excited about, you know, some smelly boys, HMO bathroom. Do you know what I mean? So split your business into two and find ways that you can build up those two areas. You've to be organized. You've got to be able to systemize. You've got to be able to outsource. And then spot the opportunity in what you're doing because people in property generally they need services, they need inspections, they need mortgage valuations, they need, I mean, I was just before this podcast, I've just done a refinance valuation with a surveyor just now at one of my properties, but know, landlords need that service. So if you can be specialist in your area and you can really understand what it is that you can offer to landlords and you do a good job at it, they will come to you, you will attract them. And then you just need to have services for them. I can help you build your portfolio, I can help you do your next flip, I can do X, Y, Z for you on the ground because this is my area and this is what I'm a specialist in and the business will grow from there. Hmm. I love that. You know when you were just talking there about the em the fire safety stuff as well. my god every single month I had to go and I had to go and do the fire checks and I was like right I'm doing a fire check in I come there'd be posts everywhere I'm like what is going on the dishes were still everywhere even though we have a cleaner that we used to employ these to go in like Once every two weeks and and it really is that you really are on the ground really on the ground and I remember this so well, it used to always make me laugh and of course you then also have to do the viewings and get people in to do the viewings and it is essentially property management and you're right actually, I think you made a great point there Amanda, I think a great way for anyone who is looking to get into this would be... to get started with the property management, first of all, and take a percentage of the revenue. But as you said, to actually add on services. So you almost create like a bronze, silver and gold package, if you like, to be like, right, bronze is this, silver is this, gold is this. And then you really start to increase it. And I think that we have to start somewhere so that they can gain the trust in order to then build and build from there. And that's how you then create decent money because I guess my question also to you Amanda is this and it's a difficult it's a difficult question and answer and I appreciate that but I'd like to gain perspective which is you know we have the most incredible incredible women just in life and in the girls and property community who have this like burning desire within them that they know that they're destined for something greater but they are mums and they have jobs Yeah. be that they're in a part-time job or a full-time job and I have so much admiration and respect for these women because they're out there trying their absolute goddamn best to try and make a better life for themselves and their kids. But how do we navigate this now in terms of having to do that and having to have the hat of being mum, have the hat of having a part-time job or even sometimes a full-time job and wanting to take on something like rent-to-rent or let's say property management because they can't, they don't have enough money in order to attract for the deposit. You know, what would you say to those women listening right now? Gosh, I mean, it is a tough situation to be in. I would say two things jump to mind. The first one is that when you have a burning desire for change, you find a way. And I know that's not exactly a toolkit of a solution ah because we often hear it's all right for you or this or that, but it wasn't all right for me. And I'm sure, Athena, it wasn't all right for you. when I first started, I was made redundant. So I had no income whatsoever, not mortgageable, not sure where my next pay was going to come from. um But that made me so hungry and had such desire to make this thing work because I didn't want to go back to what I had. So I think really leaning in on why this is important for you will push you forward a little. Yeah, it will push you forward a little. um One, if you're just kind of talking about it, you like the idea of somebody else is doing it, you're thinking of doing it, so that I think sometimes that's not enough. You've really got to get some emotional leverage behind it. One. Two, the second thing is to change your environment. Okay, so the environment that I was in at the time was I was living in London, but wanted to buy properties in Stoke-on-Trent. I was My sort of peer group at the time wasn't particularly uh conducive to taking risks and building businesses and personal development. That was, you know, not even in the conversation. So I took a bold step, which I appreciate that some people can't do, but I actually moved out of London and I moved to Stoke-on-Trent, okay, which everyone thought, my God, she's completely lost the plot. and I rented a house and I did that kind of burn the boats. I'm all in, I'm all in on this. Now, obviously you're not going to do that if you have a child at a local school. But that environment might just be spending time in your community a little bit more Athena, or it might be trying to really engage yourself in the personal development, or it might be getting a buddy, somebody else who's already doing something. And it's hard. You know, I don't have a silver bullet answer, I don't think. Another thing I would add is take action, even if it's just a little bit. Okay. Just a little bit. Maybe, I mean, maybe you get together a couple of grand and you go in on a deal with somebody, you know, they're looking to raise a bit of money. You can put a little bit of something in. You might not be enough for the whole thing, but maybe go and do a JV or learn the process or just source that first deal because the, the belief it gives you when you do that, take that first step no matter how small it is. my gosh, for me, I was on fire. thought they gave me all the confidence that I needed. So you got to back yourself, know, naively even, you know, I was probably backing myself when people were thinking, what is go, what is she thinking? Surely she's not going to be X, Y and Z. yeah, that was what was going to, that was going to be my path. So I don't know what you think of those answers, Athena, if they're action ready. but that's how I feel. You know what? They're great. And they're your answers. That's the thing. That's why I love asking the question because I always love hearing from other people about what they think because you're right. There's no silver bullet at all whatsoever. tell you, I tell you, so I agree with everything you just said. I tell you a couple of points that I would just add for anyone listening to this who's thinking, you know, what to do. So for me, one thing I was doing, so I was in a full time job ah in retail, which was long hours whilst creating my renter in business. So I did both at the same time and I managed to do both. And for me what I did was I would usually I would usually do the calls at lunch to all of the agents but when I got home at night I would stay up really late so I'd be up late till at least like one o'clock in the morning looking at everything that needed to be doing and I would schedule every single email to go at eight o'clock in the morning to the agent the following day so that by the time I had done my morning shift at work all the agents had read what I needed them to read and then I'd be making the calls about one o'clock So I got very good at understanding time and understanding scheduling and understanding where time needed to be. And I tell you this other thing, and I talked to a few people about this actually, because I tell you the bit that I still get a little bit confused by sometimes is it's like people think that you need to go from one extreme to the other with certain things. And they go, Athena, my current job is in... I don't know, let's go procurement. You know, I do procurement or I'm a teacher or I'm this and it's something nothing to do with property. It's a job where they work in an unrelated thing to property, but yet they have a desire to do property. And I'm like, okay, why don't instead of you just trying to start your own business, which is an extremely difficult thing to do when you don't have the time and resources, why don't you go and try and get a job within the field that you want to learn about such as property? So why don't you go and become a management person for a company that is established, got the systems, got the scaling, got everything that you need, that you can actually be a sponge in, that you can learn the processes of what's required and then... bugger off in a year and go and start your own thing. For me, if I was going to start again, that's what I would do. Okay, yes, it's likely you're going to take a pay cut that is likely going to happen because of the type of field that you're in. But at the same time, see it as an investment where you then can learn about what it is that you want to go into. And so in a way, you're every single day being a sponge in what it is that you want to do and then be able to go and start your own thing rather than trying to start a business and learn at the same time. I never quite yeah, I never understood that gap people people jump they jump with both feet from one extreme to the other and I'm like, why don't you just walk? Yeah, I think and I think that's a little bit to do with some of the messaging. I think people think that they just have to quit what they're doing and build this business and be an entrepreneur and be successful and so on. But the reality is, it doesn't really work. It doesn't really work like that. I was kind of forced into that position because I got made redundant, there was a financial crash. There wasn't many job opportunities. Now you're going to find this even more interesting because I was also in travel and hospitality as well. So we're more aligned than we thought. And during the crash, a lot of luxury hotel companies were closing because their clients were bankers and they were losing their jobs in the city. So the domino knock on effect was that there wasn't so much of an opportunity there. So I was forced to make a change. And I think perhaps I was actually ready to, and then the circumstances tipped me over the edge. But I wouldn't say I'm the norm in that respect. I think the norm is people like within your community that have done something for a period of time, know, raising a family or in maybe a career that they've been in for a long time and can't work out to use your word, how to pivot into something different. And maybe that pivot is just a different job. I think that's... think that's fair advice. Yeah, pivot. I love that word. And again, to caveat, like it's really important that everybody goes on their own journey. Like what worked for Amanda, what works for me, doesn't necessarily mean that's gonna work for you. But until you actually take action, until you actually try, you're literally never ever gonna know. And um I think that this is such an important message and you make a good point actually. And actually I just wanna do something here actually, cause... again, because I've done both, I've done both HMO management and I've done service accommodation management, totally different ballgames, totally different price points as well, because of course you have tenants in with the HMOs and you have guests in with that one. I think that you, I think you make a really good point actually, which is because mine were mainly rent to rent as opposed to management, I literally did everything with that rent to rent business yet because of my margins, couldn't hire in the VAs and I couldn't do all of that. So at one time, you know, I was the girl who literally was on the ground, in the office, work in the late hours. I mean, people who actually know me back then will know that I talk about all the time that I burn out severely, really badly. And I burn out really badly twice where I remember I was in my kitchen I'll never forget it and you know what you ever get to those points about a week where you literally you're filled to the absolute brim and then one more thing comes in and you literally crumble before your feet and you go I'm done like I'm like swallow me up kill me now I'm done this is over type thing and I was absolute ball on my kitchen floor like I remember I was in this tiny little ball huddled in my kitchen going rocking going I can't do this like I can't I'm one woman I can't do this and it was because the cleaners were supposed to come and we had another guest checking in at three but then the cleaners hadn't actually come and I was like well now what are we gonna do and that was a week's booking one of the tenants was complaining about the shower a landlord was complaining about something else and I'm like I just don't have the capacity and I think what happens is is that when you starting out in business and I totally understand how this happens you It's like we don't think about our capacity. We just think about, yes, yes, yes, whatever you say. Yes, I can take it on. Yes, I could take it on. Yes, I could take it on. But actually, can you take it on? And the only thing I'd say to people is this, I want them to think about, which is you end up doing more damage than good because then your reputation comes into fold where you can't deliver the services anymore because it's not your fault. It's just that you were so caught up in cashflow within your business. And so when you're talking about this idea of outsourcing, it is one thing that I never did. Do know, I didn't hire my first member of staff for, for like girls and property or for business or for anything until my third year, my third year, which is just, just before my third year, actually it two and a half, which is just mad. And It's so wild to actually think about that now, how many hats I actually held on a day to day basis and you're right actually. I think if I would have taken the time to actually really think about outsourcing and had more boots on the ground and relationship building and all of that, as opposed to... filling in a tenant form and replying to maintenance and you know telling them the landlord what the issue is and emailing a hundred emails to a landlord etc. I think that that actually would have developed my business at an even greater speed and when I think back to I mean what's your opinion on this actually Amanda which is important to say because people are talking about systems and scaling do you actually use because I do do you actually use any property management software systems at all? we couldn't operate without it. I do actually remember the days where that was actually a notepad, like in the first few maybe months, and it was like, my God, but we use a company called Avivo. Now Avivo is actually more service accommodation based, but we've stuck with that and sort of added on some additional HMO elements just for us that we built separately. But I've got a couple of things that I think the listeners will... um on what you were just saying in terms of your journey. Because what I would say is do not outsource what you haven't yet done a mastered, okay? Because that two and a half years, okay, ended up on a ball on the floor. We need to have a conversation about that. But I wouldn't have outsourced from day one, but you might have outsourced maybe the beginning of year two because... that learning experience, that doing it all yourself, in my opinion, you've to go through that phase. Otherwise, outsourcing just sounds nice and idyllic, but you have to manage your team and they need your leadership and to know that you've done it. just so it doesn't sound too dreamy, the outsourcing model, I think what you've done is totally right. Probably just didn't outsource just that you could have just done it that little bit earlier. definitely. the, I think the realness, if people are thinking about property management as a business, they, they've got to be able to get stuck in to begin with and learn it. One, totally, just to have the idea and then think that everybody else will kind of do it and so on is a little bit too imaginary. One, two, the era of AI is now upon us. And if we had AI like we have it now 10 or 15 years ago, we will probably have a completely different business to what we have now. So when you were saying about people saying, well, how do I get started? It will be never as easy as it's going to be now going forward. You've just got to get yourself up to speed a little bit. If you're not into, if you're not embracing AI, and I don't mean just from a bit of a, I'll use chat GPT instead of Google. If you can embrace AI into your systems of the business, which is what we're doing now, you will be able to scale quicker because for property management to be any kind of wealth creation vehicle, it needs to be done at scale. Hmm, yeah. No, I was gonna say and literally remove yourself essentially. So if I use the service accommodation as an example of this, and this was before the whole like, Claude and chat and all of this type of really big thing. You know, I personally for service accommodation used up listing, for example. And with uplisting, I loved it because we were able to automate everything from payment to check in to 24 hour like confirmation of are they having a good time to then at the end being like, here's your 10 % discount if you do a direct booking. And the whole thing through uplisting was able to have that. And then with uplisting, the beauty of it is when you think about a channel manager, we're just talking about systems at the moment for AI and the smooth boo and there's loads of other ones. So go, go, go find the one that works for you. But what's really good about it is then Let's say that they book it on Airbnb. It will then block it on booking.com. So you can have multiple channels that you're actually advertising on, but as soon as it's booked on one, it blocks on another. And then you have the freedom in order to do that. So for me, I think if I was gonna mentor someone again, do this from scratch, I would first of all say, go and get a job within the industry that you wanna learn about and go and be mentored and go and learn the ropes, number one. And then number two, start to understand systems and start to understand the process of the customer's journey. So I would say write out the customer's journey if they're a tenant and write out the customer's journey if they're a landlord, write out the customer's journey if they are a guest. And then you put a flow chart that says, how can I automate each section of this in order to make it work? Go and build it out. And then anything that can't be automated, that's where you sit. And then you then decide which bit do I like, which bit don't I like, which bit's gonna hold me back, which bit's a waste of time. And then you outsource that to your VA and then you sit in the middle. And that's what I would say. yeah, no, absolutely. And I think we're doing something at the moment where we've brought in some AI developers into the firm. And we're looking at every process of the entire management company and how we can, whilst we think we thought outsourcing was good, outsourcing now is like that standard. How do we bring in AI so intelligently that it will not replace the outsourced element because I don't think it will ever replace. But what it does is it gives them so much tools that they can be far more efficient. And then you can scale without having to add headcount because it's the headcount that obviously adds the costs, which reduces the profit. So it's how can we get as much out of this business as possible with as least costs as possible and AI will do that. The element of AI that's going to take a little bit of time is that AI needs to know your business. So I'm a little bit anti the sort of the AI in a box. You know, can just kind of plug in a chat box to your website and it's not that great. What we've been doing is we've been pouring in to build a knowledge base that is basically it's our team as an AI. So that when we plug it something in, let's say for the AI to speak to the customer. They're not just getting like a set of FAQs and basic information. It's like they're talking to the team because we're pouring all the knowledge into the AI. And that takes a little bit of time and you have to refine it. But I do think that if you, if you've got a business idea right now with artificial intelligence, there's, nothing stopping you. There really isn't, there really isn't. Literally Literally and I think that's why I wanted to really help all the listeners to know today from this episode and I hope that that all your listeners got really a lot out of today, which is just golden nuggets, which is it is possible to do We've given you some really good steps today that you can actually follow and of course just to really believe in yourself and as as Amanda said and I think everyone has to have a little bit of this which is the fun bit have a little bit of delusion in yourself like a healthy amount, you know to think I like I believe that if you are born having something in you right now where you believe that you're destined for more, it's almost like it's your God given right that you have the ability to go and actually explore that. But only you hold the permission to yourself to allow yourself to explore it. And the similarities that me and Amanda have in this is that we were both, we both had no choice. We were both pushed to do it because I lost my job during COVID, Amanda lost hers, we were both made redundant. And so we didn't have a fallback. And when you don't have a fallback, you can't go backwards, you can only go forwards. So sometimes your comfort zone is the most dangerous place to be because you're on your cushy two and a half to three grand. You're like, you know, Athena, I'm fine. No problem. Go and live your best life. I wish you all the well. But if it is that you actually want more than that. you're going to have to take yourself out of your comfort zone in order to then propel yourself. And as Amanda said, you know, you know, I'm massive on personal developments of conscious work. I'm doing loads of it this year for myself. It's around really healing that part of you to then really expand forwards. So, so yeah, fantastic episode today, Amanda, I've loved it. And thank you so much for coming on and being an incredible guest as well. I know you usually sit on the other side, but you were brilliant. Absolutely. And so many people are going to want to get in contact with you today. So where is the best place for people to find you? I'd say probably just go to go to Instagram. So it's Amanda Woodward property on Instagram. If you just want to drop me a message, if you want to find out a little bit more about what we do as a business, then the company brand is essential property options. And there's a whole bunch of information on our website and all the different things that we do. Amazing and it's Stoke-on-Trent that you predominantly are in. is Stoke-on-Trent. If we have more time, I'll tell you about some other stuff that we're doing. Maybe we'll save that for another episode, but we are picking up what we've done here and we're exporting it around the country to other areas. So that's about our scale and growth plan. But yeah, that one's for another time. It is. And as always, ladies, as we've been saying, you know, if you need accountability, if you need sort of like people in your corner, and as Amanda said, you know, your environment is so important as half of this, then do come and check out the Girls and Property community. You know, we're over 130 women now all over the UK, just doing incredible things at all levels, whether you're starting out with your experience, whether you've got portfolio. And it's so beautiful because you've probably seen through a lot of my stories and a lot of my posts that I do. hang out outside of online spaces now we actually hang out in person as women like it's not always just property conversation we went to an R &B brunch the other day like it's just to have fun and it's just to build those meaningful connections to make you feel like you can do it as well so we do our calls twice a month which are educational it's either property or business I've got my mini podcast on there we've got asked the community a question and I don't know if you actually know this person Amanda but and Amanda but we were talking earlier about you know, getting the expertise from people. We have Judy Ford, who is in our community, who is an amazing uh Renters' Rights Act specialist. So she does incredible updates once a week on the Renters' Rights Act and also going to be hosting an expert table at the Girls and Property Retreat. So it is just about giving yourself the opportunity ladies and for only 30 pounds a month to join this community. It really is a no brainer. Just don't get that takeout. go invest in yourself and go and take it forward. And then of course I will see many of you on Friday, 24th of April at the Girls and Property Retreat in Tring. We have sold out of tickets, but if you didn't manage to get a ticket, just DM me the word mailing and I'll get you on the mailing list so that you find out about our future events. And then as always, I've also got my accelerator program, which is gonna be happening at the end of April, which aligns as Amanda was saying, know, personal development, which is your subconscious work with strategy, which I'm massive, massive for in order to bring it together. We've got our lives that you can have a look at which will be on Instagram because we've had people like Nikki that come on who's a graduate, we've had Michelle that's come on that's a graduate and they tell you all about their story. So if you want to find out about how they got on, just go on to the Girls on Property Instagram or Athena Dobson underscore official Instagram and you can see all of it there and hear it from them themselves. Amanda, I would love to leave you with the parting words today for all the listeners. So what are your parting words? All my parting words, my parting words are just do it. Just move forward, take some action, do something and talk to someone who can help you along the way. Beautiful, well said, just do it. Right, that's what we're gonna leave you with, girls. Have a wonderful week, look after yourselves, have the most fabulous time, and if you need us, you know where we are, send us a message and we'll speak to you soon. Take care for now, bye. for seeing us.