How Commercial Property Can Buy Back Your Time with Kirsty Darkin

We talk a lot about building portfolios on this podcast, but far less about what happens when the portfolio starts running you instead of the other way around. That's exactly where commercial property comes in, and it's a strategy we have never covered until now.

In this episode of Girls in Property I'm joined by Kirsty Darkin, a commercial surveyor and investor who has spent years in a room where she was often the only woman. Kirsty walks us through how she got started, what commercial actually looks like day to day, and why so many of us have written it off before we've even looked at it properly.

We get into the real detail. How commercial differs from residential, what makes a good building and a good tenant, and how you add value through lease extensions, rent reviews and asset management rather than swinging a hammer. Kirsty shares how she funds deals using pensions, equity release, bridging and investor capital, where beginners tend to trip up, and how she sources off market through agents and auction houses. She's also refreshingly clear about the risks, because this is not a strategy where you can afford to skip your due diligence.

What stayed with me most was the conversation about time. Commercial, done properly, is one of the few strategies that genuinely gives you your life back. Kirsty has just celebrated ten years in business and her 50th birthday, and she speaks beautifully about designing a life you actually want to live rather than one that looks good on paper.

If you have ever thought commercial wasn't for you, this episode will change your mind.

Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. So I've got something a little bit different for you today. We're going to be talking about a conversation that we've sort of touched on in the Girls in Property podcast, but to be honest with you, not in enough detail. And what I'm finding lately in the most wonderful way is so many of you coming to me and asking me and saying to me, Athena, can you please get somebody on the podcast to talk all about commercial properties? And and let's face it, like what even defines a commercial property, as it were, which is what this podcast is going to be all about today. And what I really wanted to do actually is I really wanted to get another female on to talk about commercial properties. Because let's face it, there are lot there's lots of guys doing it, lots of guys doing developments. And I have had a lot of offers from guys saying, Athena, you know, I'll come in and I'll talk about commercial, you know, developments and everything, but they are all guys. And I thought actually it'd be really wonderful to have a female come on and talk about it because I do feel there aren't enough of us in this industry who are inspiring and who are doing it in such an amazing way. And how this person actually came about was I actually had a few recommendations from other women in the industry who said, Athena, you should really reach out to Kirsty. Kirsty would be a great person for the podcast. I reached out to Kirsty and here she is. And that is all about collaboration. That is how connection works. That's how, if you like, a spider web works. And when you've got a good podcast and people say yes. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce Kirsty Darkin. Hey Kirsty. Hi Athena, thank you for having me today, I'm looking forward to this. Absolutely. And as I said, I think it's such a wonderful thing really when isn't it great when other people recommend you? Isn't that just like the cherry on the cake? look, everybody has an ego whether we like to admit it or not, you know, and it's, I don't have a big one, but I'm only human and it is nice to be recognised and recommended. And it's good to know that you have built some awareness out there as well, because that's what, like you, that's what I'm all about is just building awareness of what's possible and making what I do accessible. So making commercial poverty accessible to everyone, because I think even me, as a commercial surveyor, when I started investing in commercial for myself, found it quite difficult because there weren't many people to collaborate with. So really it's about creating that network and that space like you are. Absolutely. And we want to obviously encourage and inspire more people today. And what we really think about for the for this for this topic, and we were talking about this before came on on on air, was I was like, what do you think we could really do about this? And um and what we were thinking was was actually you you you do quite a lot of speaking around sort of the UK at different bits, which is brilliant. I love speaking. I love speaking at events, I love speaking to people, it's one my favorite, favourite things to do, shot choral. And you recently spoke at an event in um in May, and one of your topics which really caught my eye What's this notion of what no one tells you about commercial and should. So I think that should be the topic of of conversation today because there's a lot, a lot of women and men who are going to be listening to this episode going, Athena, commercials really caught my eye. Particularly if I'm honest with you with the way that the industry is at the moment, with all the down vows, with all the mortgage rates, with all everything. Like commercial seems to be a really, really hot topic of conversation. So um what I'd love to do with you, Kirsty, is is this is gonna be the topic of today. We want to give loads of value, jam pat. We really want to get anyone who either hasn't even thought about commercial before to start thinking about it as a potential. And for those who are already in it, thinking about expanding and maybe doing something a little bit different. So the first thing I'd like you to do, if okay, is I'd love you to introduce yourself because there'll be people within the girls and property world who won't know at all who you are. And there'll also be people that probably are going to listen to this podcast who maybe have actually followed you for some time, but don't really know Kirsty, like Kirsty behind, you know, Kirsty the Surveyor, as it were. Can you start off by introducing yourself? And I'd I'd love to hear how a woman like you actually got into this space in the commercial world and what that's been like for you, and what's been sort of your biggest so far, your biggest sort of like breakthrough takeaway that you've you've learnt about yourself or the commercial world within it. Ooh, big questions. Okay, well, I fell into commercial property, as a lot of people say, and I fell into property, well, I literally did. um So I started working for a surveying firm in marketing after I graduated, and I'd never heard of surveying. I didn't know what it was. But a commercial property surveying firm, and I was like, ooh, this looks like a sociable profession. I'm a very sociable girl. So I could never have sat behind a desk drafting contracts or doing numbers or any of those kinds of professions. But surveying is all about being out on the road, meeting people, doing deals. Like, you know, it's very sociable. So that's how I got into commercial property. And I decided that actually this is for me. So I went back to university, did a master's, converted my degree and then trained to be a commercial property surveyor. So I've been a commercial property surveyor for 27 years now. I still love it, but I love it on my own terms these days. So I spent 17 years in corporate and I loved it until I didn't. And the reason that I ended up not loving it is because I went on a sabbatical in 2014 because I worked really hard, 15 years. I got money in the bank, but I really wasn't enjoying my life. I was stressed. I was a bit bored as well. You know, I was just kind of, oh, I need to change something. So I took 10 months off. I did my first ever solo travel trip eight weeks through Europe on my own, which was great. And I've solo traveled ever since. I do go away with other people as well, but every year I do at least one solo travel trip. And then I went back to work because I spent all my money. I wasn't in an investing mindset for myself at that point. I went back to work and realized I could no longer do the traditional corporate nine to five, Monday to Friday, 30 days holiday a year. It wasn't for me. So I jumped 10 years ago. Didn't know exactly what I was going to do apart from investing commercial property for myself. And I think, you know, a lot of the projects that I did in corporate have brought me to where I am today because all the contacts, all the knowledge, all that, you know, they were all brilliant. But actually, the biggest thing for me was buying my first commercial property investment for myself, which I always say only took me 19 years. It's been 19 years of being a commercial property surveyor to get into the mindset. Because as a professional, you are risk averse naturally as you spend your entire life protecting your clients from risk. And so then for yourself, you're going, well, isn't this a bit risky? Like, what if it goes wrong? as a professional, even when you've got all the knowledge. So yeah, buying my first commercial property in 2018 was pivotal. for me and then lots of people started asking me how I did that and that's how I've arrived at where I am today helping other people invest in commercial property and find good deals. there's so much to unpack there. So much. so, uh let me just do this in in a way that I'll I'll remember it as it were. So the first thing is, so what was the first commercial property that you took on? What actually was it? It was a high street property. So I, I've done all sectors of commercial property throughout my career and my time as an investor, but my first love will always be the high street and shopping centers. I've always loved retail. It's fast paced. It's ever evolving. Nothing ever stays the same. There's always something new like that's who I am as a, as a person. So I like change. So high street, was two shops on the ground floor, uh a vacant office on the first floor. workshop at the rear with six space car parks. So you've got four units, three tenants, one vacant and some car parking. B Bargains had taken a new lease two years previous opposite this property which means that they had done all my research for me because the big brands don't locate themselves in locations that don't work. So that's a that's a big tick, kind of like oh. The High Street was fully let, no vacancy whatsoever, a small market town in Staffordshire. The first floor flat, first floor, if you'd converted it to a flat would only be worth 70 grand. It didn't stack. And anyway, I don't like to do hard work. I like to invest the lazy way. So yeah, that's what I bought. It was 10 a half thousand pounds rent on purchase. I bought it for 87 and a half thousand cash, 12 and a half percent return from day one, which is quite nice. And I added the value through the tenants and the leases, which is what I like to teach people to do. This is one of the key things that if you don't know about commercial property, you should, is that you can add value without doing any physical development work. You don't need to be there. You can invest anywhere in the country because the local commercial surveyors can do this work for you. So I've got two shops on the ground floor, a hairdresser who'd been there for 40 years and an optician who'd been there for 25. They weren't going anywhere, but they'd only got six months left on their leases, which made it a riskier investment, which is why it was a high yield. So I renewed both of those leases onto new five-year leases. The rent stayed the same because there was no movement in the rent. I did a very, very light refurb on the office only because the toilet was like something out of train spotting and the carpet was orange. know, I was like, no. So I spent £3,000, got Local Builder in to just quickly whip around that for me. And the spec is very low in commercial, so less is more. Don't ever. spend more than you need to spend. And then I let that to a financial services company during COVID on a new five year lease at four and a half grand a year because the director didn't want to work from home anymore and wanted to bring his team in when he could. So that's how I added the value to that property. So I bought it at eight, seven and a half. The end rent was 16,150. So we were at 19 % yield and the end value was 190,000 pounds. And that's what should know about commercial property as well. It's all investment value, not bricks and mortar. So the longer the lease, the higher the value of your property. And so yeah, it was a lovely first deal and I would have loved to hold on to it. But unfortunately, because we had COVID and there was no commercial lending at that time, the only way I could get my money back out and keep going was to flip it. So I sold it in auction and went on to the next deal. There you go, but sold it for a profit, a nice profit. There you go. Very good profit. There you go. I love that. So what's important to note here, I I I think what's important to say also is this sounds fantastic, and I'm sure that people are listening to this being like, my god, the dream, this sounds incredible. But what's important to recognise is you didn't just sort of think, I'm a let's take this as an example. Like sometimes you'll get people that like, I'm a hairdresser, I'm a dog groomer, I work in finance, I do this. I fancy getting into property. Let's go start my first commercial property and see how it goes. You didn't quite do that. You actually went back to education, didn't you, which is important to make a note of. Yeah, I did. So, I I set up my own property network so that I was surrounded by property investors and I got myself a mentor because yes, I already had the commercial property knowledge, but I'd never invested in it myself before. know, an investment is very different to advising other people on investments, which sounds ridiculous, but it just is. There's a lot to think about when you're investing, you know, for yourself, you've got to think about exits in a way that you don't think about them. because that's the investors job, your job as a surveyor is to advise on the property, maybe find the deal, maybe find the tenants, but you're not having to advise on what are your exit options and how are going to fund it. So funding it, your exit options, how are going to get your funds back out? How are you going to pay your investor, pay your bridge, pay whatever it is that you need to repay? So you don't have to think about any of that. And I wouldn't have done it if I... hadn't had a mentor. So for the last 10 years, I have always had a mentor or a coach or both. And at the moment I have both. love that. Do you know I'm exactly the same. I always so even to this day, even now, I have a mentor, I have coach, I have coaches within the business space, I have coaches within my uh inner work and subconscious work and it is the most brilliant investment I have ever made. And I would rather invest. Honest to God, so I'm I'm I'm out in Marbella at the moment, Kirsty. I've been out here since first yeah I'm out I've been out here for a while just 'cause it's I always wanted to set up a life and now I'm living it and sometimes you have to You have to take a moment to really stop and pinch yourself in these moments, which is when I set out to create my own business, I said to myself, I'm gonna create a business one day where I can take my laptop and my mobile phone and I can go anywhere in the world. And that's exactly what I have created because I wanted to have I'm basically my background's in travel. I was a travel consultant for seven years. So it travels in my blood, travels in my soul. Like I always say this to everybody property's not my first love, never has been, and I'm happy to admit it. Property is a vehicle for me that actually gets me to the end goal, which is to travel the world. That's what I'm doing. And I'm traveling for the rest of um this year. I'm literally coming back for less than a month. So I fly back on Thursday to host my two events. I then stay for I think three and a half weeks. I've got loads of stuff going on, meetings and seeing people. And then I'm off to Canada, South America, back for four days, and off to Thailand this year. And it's this life that I have basically created. So And by the way, when you just said solo traveling, I just want to make a point of this also. You said that you love solo traveling. That's exactly what I do. I now solo travel. So since um breaking up with my long-term partner, I'm now just traveling the world and absolutely loving it. And it really gets us out of our comfort zone as well, because we're forced to to go out. And actually, I'm going to come on to this because it's part of one of my celebrations of something that actually happened last night. So it's a very, very um thing, but I don't want to go off off topic just yet. So I think what's important going back to this mentor and subconscious work aspect of it is I'm out of Marbella at the moment and I'm seeing people walking around with handbags and shoes and it's very Marbella. It's very, very Marbella. For me, I would rather spend money on an in on investing in myself, my inner work, my growth, my health, my body, rather than a handbag and choose any day. Don't get me wrong, some people want to do both, but for me, I just think I just think it's good to get somebody who who can just be your cheerleader and hold you accountable and and and have that, do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I speak to my coach at least twice a month, sometimes three times a month. And it's just my space where I go and let everything out that I didn't know I needed to let out half the time. I make decisions off the back of it. Or I had a call with my mentor on Friday and I was just looking at the notes that I made and I was like, I make decisions like that because they help me get there faster. You know, and they're like, all right, what's in the way? I'm like, well, I need to find another surveyor. But, you know, the terms need to be this. And they're like, well, you won't know if you can find it if we don't try. So should we both put it out in our networks and see what comes in? you're like, good point. Well made, I'll do that. And you can get in really easily, get in your own way kind of thing, you know. he, yeah, he was also like, right, I'm doing this thing on Friday. You should come. It's like, have you got anything in your diary on Friday? And if you have, can you move it? I was like, well, no, actually, I don't have anything in my diary, but I try not to have on a Friday. And he's like, well, good, he said, so you're not working Friday. So he kind of like gives myself, it gives me permission to do things that I might not give myself permission to do. Because like you, I travel a lot. Travel is my first love rather than property also. I take around about four months of the year off now. Not all at once, but sometimes in big chunks, sometimes in small chunks, depends what I feel like doing. But when I am at home, I work very hard in between. You know, and sometimes I get to a point where I'm going, I don't think I'm meant to be working this hard. And I need someone else to point out to me and go, you know, that team that you've got, is there anything else you can delegate to them as well? I was like, yeah, probably. It's we just need somebody to. I like work, though. I do. I'm a, you know, I find out I'm a strange being amongst lots of people. And because I actually love work, I always have. I'm like, but I love work because I love what I'm doing and I've made it that way. You I had this conversation um with my best friend actually who came out to see me. So I've had various people have come out to see me in in Mar Bay, which has been lovely because I feel like I said to her, I feel like I've had different chapters of my journey out here. Various people have come out. But she said to me when we were when we were out at the weekend, she said to me, You work too hard, she said to me, You work too hard. She says, You're obsessed with work. You're obsessed. And I said to her, Yeah, but I love it. Look for me it's not work. DMing DMing the girls for me isn't work. She's like, you're DMing everyone. You're messaging everybody. I'm like, yeah, because I want to. Not because I have to. Like the girls need me, or or I need to do this or this. And she's like, oh, I never saw it in that way. And I'm like, yeah, I love what I do. And so I'm happy doing it. I think as soon as it bec you become that you feel like you're forced to do it or you're not happy doing it, and it takes a turn for the worse and you gain burnout, which I've definitely, definitely been through before. That's when you know you need to stop. But if you're healthy and you're happy and what's I say, you're healthy and you're happy, you want to know. Like if you're happy you know, if you're healthy then it's a it's it's a good thing as well. So we never ever promote hustle culture. I refuse to promote hustle culture, ever. mean that's just no good for anyone. mean, I think this is, if we bring that back to commercial property, one of the other talks that I do is how do you buy your time back? So, commercial property investing for me is about investing and about financial return, but it's also about investing to buy back your time at the same time. And a lot of people, you know, want to know, well, how? Like, what do you mean? Well, what I mean is the tenants are responsible for everything in commercial property, the cost, the maintenance, the compliance. There's nothing to manage as a commercial property landlord. So my time is free once I own it. And to add the value, I don't need to do any work either, apart from instruct local commercial surveyors to agree lettings, renewals, take tenant breaks out, do rent reviews. Now, of course, every now and again, something comes up. That's the nature of property. Nothing is completely passive, but it's a lot more passive. than a lot of the other options for investing in property. And I just really keen that everybody understands what the opportunity is with commercial. I mean, there are pros and cons to every type of investment. It has its cons as well, which we can talk about. But buying back your time, if you're in that place in life where actually you want more time with family, you want more time to travel, uh you want more time for interests, for your health, whatever it is, you're building up to retirement, you want to slow down. Commercial property is great for all of that. Hmm. Well let's talk about then cut then Kirsty because the majority of listeners who listen to this podcast um I'm gonna presume are more than likely not going to be in the commercial space, but their ears have been pricked today going, okay Kirsty, I what they definitely are interested in is buying back their time. They're interested because they've got kids, they feel like they're run ragged, they're listening to this while they're on the school run or while they're making the packed lunches. And they're like, Athena, that's me, or they're running, or they're on the treadmill, or they're doing something, and they're like, there's just not many hours in the day. And they've been trying these various strategies. And one of the things, Kirsty, that I get all the time is I feel like a lot of people when they're DMing me at the moment, they're very, very stuck in their heads in regards to feeling like they need to choose the right strategy. And they're like, Athena, I'm stuck. I don't know what the strategy is. And a lot of them are in full-time jobs, a lot of them don't necessarily have the funds in order to get started in property, but they know they want to get started. And so if you took somebody like that, for example, that listens to this podcast and explains to them about, okay, this is how one way you can literally start today to get into the commercial world, to even start getting your brain, your juices flowing, what advice could we give them? Well, you have to get interested in business. So commercial is all about business. It's not about homes. So we've got to understand the trends that are happening in business. So like high street trends, office trends, you know, we've gone back to the office, but we've gone back to the quality green office. So we've only gone back to a certain type of office, but many, many businesses have now gone back to the office, which I always said was going to happen. I like it when I'm right, but I know lots of people didn't believe me. was like, okay, well it's just my... Well, I think the high street isn't dead, it's evolving and there are as many high streets that are thriving as are dying. So it's about starting to get interested in business trends. you know, think about yourself as a consumer, like what do you use your high street for? Because those are the sustainable tenants and which businesses have gone back to the office and why and what kind of space do they need? So we're providing business homes. So we've got to start getting interested in business and the markets and, you know, What's a growing industry? What's a declining industry? We've got to start getting our heads around that and noticing all of it. So it's very different to residential, but that's the best place to start. And start reading all the free reports. So the RICS provide free reports on commercial property every quarter and on lots of specific uh research areas. You've got all the big consultancies like CBRE, Jones Langley South, Savills, Colliers. They all provide. free reports and research. So you could just do a deep dive into all of that and know much more than you did yesterday. You know, that can be a great place to start and start thinking, oh, and then do a bit of a search. Now, this is not the best place to find commercial property, right move, ever. But just for a start of a 10, have a think to yourself about, what kind of price bracket would I be comfortable searching in? And then just do a really broad search from where you are, 15 miles at least. of where you sit, I would say 30 would be better because in commercial we don't need to be close to the properties and just see what pops up and start understanding what kind of commercial property is on the market and what kind of tenants and just get interested in it. Now you do need some money to start some capital to start investing in commercial property. One of the ways you can start doing it which is where a lot of people start is using their pension funds. So a lot of people have got pensions. Some have already put them into a self-invested pension plan, be it a SIP or a SAS. Others haven't done that yet, but it's something you could investigate. I ask this question all the time of people who book a call with me. What's your current pension balance? 99.9 % of people don't know. Why not? Why don't you know? I didn't used to know, by the way. I just know now because I put it into a self-invested pension plan. So I then send you away when you've said, well, I haven't got any available capital right now. Well, maybe you have because if you've got pensions from different employers over the years, then you could quite easily collect that, put it into a SIP or a SAS, dependent on what's right for you and start there. and that would be a place that you could start with money that you can't otherwise touch because you're not pensionable age, for example. So that's one place to start. You might have equity in residential property that you could use as a deposit for a bridge and get in using bridging. uh Or you've got your own capital or access to investor capital. So you've got to work out your funding strategy and learn enough so that you know. the different ways that you can fund commercial property. So you do need some capital. You can't start in commercial property investment with no capital. But I started with 10,000 pounds of my own money, you know, and worked with investors. And then I took my pension into a self-invested pension plan and I've been investing in my pension ever since. So it's easier than people think if you know where to look for capital that you actually do have access to that you might not. realize. It's just about thinking outside the box, isn't it? It's just about thinking a little bit differently. And you're right, actually, you know, SASPENC is an amazing way way to start 'cause obviously you can invest then in in commercial before obviously you're able to even like take it out at God knows what age. Whatever it is seventy. And I know that means that the rental income goes into your pension and you are effectively building up your pension. But it's great to control that for yourself and get much higher returns in your pension. And it's a great place to start and to test it. You know, as it's a great way to learn and then go, oh, yeah, I really like that. I want to do that outside of my pension. So now I'll work out how I can fund it. outside of my pension. I've got people at the moment who have decided to sell some of their residential portfolio because things have changed so much and you know in buy to let unless you're going to scale it's not really profitable anymore based on what's happening. So if you've just got a few buy to let's a lot of people are going hmm I want to change but I don't know what to change too so I've got a lot of investors at the moment who have said I've decided to sell so I'm releasing all the capital. from our residential portfolio and I want to put it into commercial. Others are holding on to the residential portfolio. They've got a lot of equity in it. So they are refinancing to release equity and investing that into commercial. So it doesn't have to be cash that you've got sitting in your account right now. You've probably got it somewhere else. Like in your own house, some people decide. to take the equity out of their own house and get started. So there's lots of different ways to fund it. Bridging's a lot more accessible now. The rates have come down. I mean, it's still fairly expensive. So you need to know that you can get in and out on a bridge, which is why I prefer when you're starting, I always say, look, learn one thing at a time. Like put yourself under pressure once, not twice at the same time. So use your own funds, use pension funds, or if you're using investor funds, make sure that the loans are two to three years long so that you can work with the market and you can pivot if you need to and you're not coming up against a brick wall at 12 months because you know that's been challenging in the current market with all the uncertainty and all the change and yeah so that's where I would start and get some education. It doesn't have to be from me, in fact from the end of this year you won't be able to get education from me because all we will be doing is sourcing commercial property investments for clients. And that is because I want to travel more and do less delivery. There you go, there you go. And this is the thing, it's about it's about whenever you're looking at anything in life, no matter who you are, it's about the end goal. You're like, what do I enjoy doing? What don't I enjoy doing? What is it I actually want for my life? And you know, you just saying that, going, well, actually, I'm gonna be changing this going forward. That's part of evolution. That's just part of going, I tried this, this was a season, seasons and reasons, I always say. Um, and then going on to to other things and and knowing what works for you. Absolutely. I've loved this. I've got so much more I want to delve into this with with the commercial side of things. One because I'm really interested in it, Kirsty. So I'm more also asking you from a personal perspective as well. But also because I think based on the questions that I get all the time, I think I know what the listeners really wanna wanna know as well. Just before I do that though, I always ask on this podcast on Girls in Property, I always ask about celebrations. Because as women, I just feel like we don't celebrate enough. I really, I really do. And I feel like we're always moving on to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, but never just taking stock of where we are. So what are you celebrating at this moment? Well, I'm actually quite good at celebrating, so much so that it was just my partner's birthday this weekend. And before he met me, he didn't celebrate birthdays. Now he does in style. And he loves it. So we just celebrated that. But I am celebrating 10 years of KD Commercial this year. So we turned 10 in May, and we had a big business birthday party that was like a children's birthday party for adults. Imagine that. And you've kind of got the vibe. played loads of games. We had loads of fun. There was cake. There was drink. So we're celebrating getting to 10 and having built this customer base that we have and a brilliant community and a brilliant team and all of that enabling the life that I've built for myself as well. So that's the biggest thing. And I turned 50 as well last month. So there's been a lot to celebrate recently. So yeah, I'm with you. You need to celebrate your wins along the way. easy to just go what next, what next and never actually stand still and go oh let's have a look backwards. So I invite any of you who are listening who haven't. eh So I know 10 years is a long time but this is how I start one of my talks which is what have you been doing for the last 10 years? What have you achieved? What have you learned? What's changed? How have you grown? And try to take some time for yourself when you've actually got space. So I did this in Bali last year and Mexico when I was travelling at the end of last year and sat back and was like, there's a lot and you will have forgotten half the things that you've achieved, you know, that you've changed, how you've grown. And when you start writing it down, you'll be amazed at yourself. I invite you to do that for yourself. I found it very powerful. And now I am paying forward all the lessons that I've brought from the last know, 10 years because there were a lot. That that's the beauty of it, isn't it? That's the absolute beauty of it, is is paying it forward. Um and I'm gonna come onto these lessons in in a second, Kirsty. Um one thing I'm actually celebrating is something that happened last night, and I actually want this to be a celebration and also similar to you. I actually want to give a message in this celebration and to inspire everybody. So last night I dropped my friend off at the airport who came to see me at my best mate, and she said to me, What are you gonna do the rest of your evening? And I said to her, Well, you've been here for a week, so I have so much work to catch up on. I am backlogged. I have got emails galore. I've got to get this podcast out. I've got to do this for tomorrow. I've got a full week. I'm flying on Thursday. I've got these two CEO days. And she said to me, Athena, Spain are playing in the World Cup final. And you're in Spain. You have to go out. And I said to her, I'm not going out. I said, I'm not going out. I said, I've got too much work, I've got too much on. I need to get ahead. And she said to me, What's the point in you living your life if you're not going to live your life? When is the next time you're going to be in Spain? When Spain is in the World Cup final? Think about it, screw your work for one second and go out. And I said to her, All right, I'll tell you what, so I'll make you a deal. I said, So I'll make you a deal, because I always do a deal with everybody, right? Always do a deal. Because I for me, whenever I do a deal, I feel like it's the universe's way. For me, this is how I see it. It's the universe's way of telling me what I should do effectively. And I listen to the universe quite a lot. Um, you know, if you believe in that. I said, So I'll tell you what, I'll make you a deal. I we met that we went we went and joined this like this run club basically and I met some people there and so we connected on Instagram. I said I'll reach out to them. If they reply and they tell me that they're going out tonight and where to meet them, I'll go. If they don't reply to me and they blank me, I'm not going and I'm gonna work tonight. She goes, All right, deal. They replied within four minutes, saying, We're gonna be at this bar at this time, see you there. And she smiled at me and she's like, Go enjoy yourself. Anyway, so I got dressed and I went and do you know what? On the way I was like like I don't really know these people. You know, you sort of meet them and in Marbella everybody talks to each other, but I don't I didn't really know them, you know. I sort of just met them this one time, we went running, that was it. And and so I was a little bit I won't say nervous, but in a way a bit nervous because you know, it's still I'm in Marbello, I don't really know these people and off I go. All right then and and it was so busy out in my god, the streets were just packed and so I was like, Am I gonna recognise them? Am I gonna be able to see them? Like I was there was anxiety there, definitely. But it was amazing, like they spotted me straight away, they're like, wait, and I had the best night. Like the best night.

I was out in the streets last night until about 3:30, 3: 33:27

30, 4 a.m. in the streets of Spain with the group, with others, meeting people, meeting strangers. And I created a memory that would never have been created elsewhere. And so my celebration and my message to everybody listening to this today is say yes. Hahaha say yes and go and live your life and make memories and have fun because for God's sakes, like we all work hard, okay? We all work hard, we all have stuff to do, and sometimes, like, just go be young and just go and have fun and just go be silly. And I don't do that enough. And it took my best friends to hold me accountable to go get a grip and go have some fun. So I'm celebrating that. She sounds like a great friend. she's a good friend. She's a very, very good friend. She knows me well. Um, so Kirsty, let's let's then talk go back to commercials. Let's talk about this. So if we're thinking about then pitfalls, right? Because I think also it's great to talk about all the great stuff that happens. You know, I'm all for it, I'm all for positive energy, always. But of course, with everything there is pitfalls as well. So what would you say, like on that first one that you did, like what were your biggest lessons from that that we we could sort of pass on to everyone? Be like, actually, watch out for this, look out for this, like What happened on that first one? Yeah, think to be honest, everything went really well on the first one, but the things to watch out for are uh demand. So you've really got to understand how to work out whether there's demand for your units if your current tenants decide to close their businesses or they don't want to renew at the end of their lease. So I could have gone to the hairdresser and the optician and they could have both said, no, we don't want to renew, we're going to retire, we're going to close our business. then I would have been left with vacant space which massively impacts value. I could also have not been able to find a tenant for the first floor office because there isn't a lot of office in that high street so it was a bit of a punt as to are we going to find a small business who wants this office? I think so but I was kind of like but I might not. So I'm going to have to be flexible on terms, but most of the values in the ground floor, so you can play with the upper floors. So yeah, I mean, think I could have I could have lost all the tenants in Covid. They could have, you know, they could have closed their businesses, but they didn't. uh So lots of things could have happened that didn't, but they are the pitfalls of commercialism. You don't want voids because all your value is in your leases and your tenant, not your bricks and your mortar. So if you end up with a vacant property, its value plummets. So you've got to know that you can re-let a property easily because the demand is there in the market. So you've got to know how to do your due diligence on tenants as well. How do you know that they've got a strong business? How do you do your due diligence on tenants to decide, are they a good tenant? Is this a good investment? That's where we spend our time. We don't spend our time on the property itself. We spend our time on Who is the tenant? What is their business? Are they profitable? How long have they been trading? What do I know about them? And should their business fail for any reason, how long will it take me to find another good business to come and take a lease of my property? And those are the biggest pitfalls in commercial property. So you've got to know how to do that due diligence and you've got to focus in on the tenants and where's the demand coming from. Cause it's not like residential where you've got apparently, and this was an exhibition I went to earlier this year, think it was a property investor show where someone had done the numbers for me and just said, well, on average, there's 11 renters for every rental property in the UK. Now in some locations, it will be higher. uh Not so in commercial, you you haven't got a queue of 11 people immediately vying to take a tenancy of that property. Usually it takes three to four months to find the right tenant and you've probably got three, four applications in that time. So it's not the same from that perspective. Having said that, a lot of businesses don't move once they're in a location. They stay there for a really long time. So I've been looking at some leases this morning actually, I was like, hang on, like a portfolio that's come in off market. Oh, okay, so they've been holding over. and they've been there since 2011, 2002, 2000, you know, these businesses just once they're established often don't move, but that is your biggest risk in commercial property. And I would say the other downside of commercial is it's harder to leverage. So in residential, we're all used to 25 % deposits, you know, leveraging our capital as much as we can, but the interest rates are higher in commercial property at the moment, they're seven to seven and a half percent. which is a lot lower than they have been, but still, you're gonna have to invest in really high yielding properties, which you can because the market is there at the moment. We're at 10 to 12 % on average. I did a 14 % with a client on Friday. The deals are there, but the interest rates are higher, so your net cashflow is impacted. You need a bigger deposit. Your loan to value is generally 65%. So you can't pull as much out on refinance and you have to do your numbers. So you have to learn the difference between residential and commercial funding and lending because also there's a really small pool of lenders and it's placed directly with the right lender rather than compare the market and go with the most favourable rate. So it's very different in terms of how we fund. So we've got to know that if we want to be able to add value to a property, we won't be able to raise a mortgage on purchase because the income stream won't be secure enough and that's where all the value is in commercial property. So what I always say is think about everything you know about residential property, including commercial conversion, because that's a residential strategy, and flip it on its head 180 and that's where you'll be in commercial. So you know, we've got bricks and mortar, we've got leases and tenants for our valuation, we've got homes, we've got businesses, we've got leverage, we've got much harder to leverage in terms of funding commercial. We've got higher profits and long leases in commercial, shorter tenancies and lower profits generally, unless you are hands-on managing in residential. So, you know, in commercial we're hands-off. So if I look at why our clients invest in commercial property, the top reason is hands-off management and less cost. So I want more profit in my back pocket and I want less to do once I own. that property is the top logical reason, the top heart reason is time to enjoy life. Whether that be family, whether that be travel, whether that be interests, whether it be health, whatever it is, it actually boils down to I want more time to enjoy my life. So that's why we find a lot of people currently at a decision point because of all the change in the residential market, looking at commercial thinking. Is this for me? You know, so hopefully this is starting to help you unpack whether it's for you or not, because this is how it works and these are the reasons why people invest in it. I think, Kirsty, if anybody was going to listen to this podcast and they were sort of doing like little tick tick thing, they'd be like, more profit, yes. Less work, yes. You know, this sound this almost sounds like too good to be true, but I think what what might happen for quite a few people that listen to this is their limiting beliefs and their identity in themselves. So for example, somebody would be listening to this going, That sounds amazing, Kirsty, but it sounds as if it's just too far ahead for me. You know, I'm at the start of my journey at the moment. So therefore I should be looking at my first buy to let. I should be looking at um service combination, I should be looking at rent to rent, like whatever it is they're looking at, and they're thinking, Oh, this sounds this sounds a bit too advanced for me, as it were. What what would you say to them if they're in those shoes? Yeah, that is it is a good point. I do actually say it is good to have some property experience under your belt before you move into commercial. So ideally two years minimum, just because it is a very sophisticated professional market. Now it doesn't mean you can't start in commercial. It's just to be mindful that it's very different to residential and you will have to educate yourself and have some advisors. because otherwise you won't be able to connect with the agents and ask the right things and uh be credible enough for them to send you the deals and you know, and that's really how it is. it's, it is a place you can start as long as you're committed to being educated and surrounding yourself with professional advisors. It's better if you've already started investing in property in whatever way that is. It might be rent to SA, it might be I mean, I actually started in Rent2SA before I bought my first commercial property myself, even as a commercial property surveyor, because I needed to cut my investor teeth. And so I do advocate that people do that, that people start, start build themselves up as an investor, kind of get their funding strategy in place, build a little bit of confidence by having done a couple of simple investments. Now, I'm not saying that commercial has to be complicated. It doesn't. It can be buy to let simple, just like residential can, but it is different. And you do find. that it's easier to get into if you've already got a little bit of property investing experience. I would agree, definitely, especially with the lenders as well. And then what would you say was the best from your experience, and and I don't know if this is too vague a question. If it is, then you know, try and help me re- reword it and in your own way. I'm just trying to think, like, obviously, when I think about like a HMO conversion or like just a standard BRR, I can pinpoint for me, I can pinpoint right, I know how to add value. I know how to add value on these properties, so I know how to get the highest. you know, the highest sort of years, the highest ROI, the highest sort of returns as it were. With a commercial, what is the way to get the highest um sort of values on it returns as it were? The way to get the highest value is to buy properties that are tenanted, so you de-risk it and you've got a return from day one, which is what I love about it, but you're looking for shorter leases so you can do a lease renewal and you're to add a lot of value. So a one-year lease is a lot less valuable than a five-year lease because your investment value is how long is the longer the lease, the higher the capital value. And so that's where we're going to add six figures of value just by extending short leases to longer leases. Or you might be letting vacant space. So you might buy a property that's part-tenanted with a unit that's vacant. And on letting that unit, you're going to usually double or more the capital value of that unit. Because when it's vacant, it's virtually worthless. Well commercial investment is only worth what you're prepared to pay for it. So you'll do your numbers and say, well, hypothetically, I can get a tenant on a five-year lease at this rent. It's going to take me this long to let it. I might have to do a bit of rent free. Therefore, I'm willing to buy it for this because I know that when I find a tenant, it will be worth this. And that's how we calculate it. We've also got rent reviews as a way to add value. So in a lot of locations, rents are going up. So if you're investing in the right location, retail rents are rising. office rents are rising, industrial rents have risen up to 30 % in a lot of locations over the last four years, which means there are a lot of leases that started four years ago that on renewal are going to be paying 30 % more rent. So there's opportunity on its own, particularly in industrial. Or we might be removing tenant breaks. So where a lease has a break option. So we've got a five-year lease, but the tenant insisted on having an option to break that lease in year three. So actually it's only a three year lease from valuation perspective. So what we do is we go to the tenant and maybe that lease is coming up in 12 or 18 months time. And we say, you know, how are you trading? How's business? What's happening? What's your business plan? And they go, yeah, everything's great. I love it here. You know, and they're like, oh, so you've got this break in your lease. So do you think, you know, you want to keep that in the lease? Or if I offered you some rent free. would you remove it? And nine times out of 10, the tenant will remove the break option in return for two, three, four months of rent free in that year. And then you've got extra years on the term, which has added value to your property. So we call this asset management or paper exercises is the easiest way to think about it. So we're using the leases and the tenants to add the value. We're not doing any physical development. work em and that's why you can invest in commercial property anywhere in the country because you don't need to be close to it. You've got no bill project to manage, the tenants are responsible for maintenance compliance, you know you don't need to be there to manage the tenants either, you need to be connected to a good local commercial surveyor who can do that professional work and add the value for you and that's the opportunity that You might not know, but I think you should. Yeah, we don't have these conversations enough, Kirsty. We really don't. Because this has really almost like perked my ears up a little bit actually, thinking, Hmm, interesting. Very interesting. Because I think that I feel like these conversations don't happen enough, or when they happen, I feel like what happens is a lot of people use a lot of jargon and they almost try and br and they almost try, sometimes in my opinion, this is just my opinion, to use fancy terminology, to use fancy words and all of this seed dwelling planning malarkey thing and confusing people and it's like actually what is the bare basics? What is the conversation that not enough of us are having? And for me, this has been such an interesting conversation because I have tried to actually learn about property commercial development before. I really have. And I'll be really honest to you, I found it incredibly boring when I've listened to it before. Whereas I I have really, really dull, really boring. Whereas when I listen to you, I'm like, hmm, okay. I'm like, I understand business, I understand tenants, I understand how this works, and I'm like, this could be really, really interesting. And you you made a point earlier which you said, look, don't go on right move. Right moves like the worst place in order to find commercial properties. Where is a good place to find commercial properties? The best place to find commercial property deals is commercial property agent websites and you're looking for the smaller independent agents, not the big CBREs, Jones Langler-Sells, Savills, Colliers, Cushman-Waitefield, the big guys, because generally, and you might be investing at a higher level than this, but generally we're investing at the sub £3 million end of the market. The players that hold the cards there are your local commercial surveyors. So what you do use Rightmove for, and this is always my top tip that I give away because it's important and it's a place to start, is you use Rightmove to find commercial property agents, not properties. Because the Rightmove fees are so expensive that most of the agents have gone, I'm not listing everything on there. And also we're quite lazy. We do work with investors that we've got in our phones. a lot of the time and we only really need our websites to list properties on. So what you want to do as a start for 10 is go and write me a commercial, put in your location. So I'm in Birmingham, put in Birmingham, put in a 20 mile search radius because commercial agents work regions, not towns. And then have a look at what comes up. So maybe put in retail and up to a certain price bracket and see who looks quite active. and then click through to their websites and you'll find that they have a lot more on their websites than they have on Rightmove Commercial if they are listing. Rightmove Commercial probably won't be up to date either. So you'll find things that are under offer on their website that don't say that on Rightmove. And the other thing to do, and I always laugh when I say this because I just think what a ridiculous thing for someone to say, particularly when people pay me money to learn commercial property and I say, Google it. You know, so but honestly, Google commercial property surveyors, Birmingham or wherever you are and go through kind of the first three or four pages because you will find some gold there that you can't find on Rightmove because they're not on Rightmove. And so some of the best deals I do are with the very small agents who or walk your patch, get out into your local high street, local office part, your local business park, what agent boards are up, you know, and find find it that way. But yeah, you need to make friends. with commercial property agents to find a lot of the best deals because a lot of them are traded pre-market, they never hit the market, off market altogether, back to market, agents never like to do their work twice. So, you know, when it falls through, they're like, I'm not doing all that marketing and viewing again. Who can I phone who's cash buyer, who I know is going to be good for this, or who can I phone who might have clients or colleagues or contacts who will want to buy? this investment and that's, you know, I would say over 50 % of commercial property never hits the market. Wow. Crazy, isn't it? Yeah, that's the reality of how commercial property investment works. Auctions are good as well. So Savils have kind of every two or three weeks, they've got a good commercial property auction. You've got Allsops and you've got Acuritus. They're your main commercial auctions. And then also look at your local auctions because often most people are residential buyers. And then when some commercial lots appear, there's not a lot. of interest in them so you can pick up some really good opportunities there as well. And prior to auction or post auction, don't go in the auction. don't want to get into a bidding war with the auctioneer. Prior to auction is common in commercial. We're working on some post auction deals at the moment that we tracked that we knew probably wouldn't sell in the auction just through experienced eyes of what they are and where they are. And you just go, yeah, I won't sell. I'll go for it after. So yeah, those are really probably the best two places to start looking for commercial. Do you know, Kirsi, I'd love today's conversation, honestly. I think I think that it's jam-packed. I think it's value led. And I think what I love about it is that it's going to inspire a lot of people to even even start thinking about it, which I think is really important. And for some others, they're just gonna I know quite a few of the listeners are just gonna dive straight in and they're gonna be like, right, I'm off, here we go. And and all that. Yeah, in a good way, in a great way. Um, Kirsi, just to round up this this this podcast, by the way, I'd love to get you back on, I just want to say that because I feel like there's so much more conversation to be had around this. I think it's important. I want to inspire women to believe that this is not just a gentleman's game. This is for for women, this is for everyone to really get involved as well. Um I've got I've got a diff I've got a different type of question for you to sort of round up today's podcast. So I've I asked this to to various people on the podcast. Um and it's a question that got asked to me. Oh my god, now about six months ago on a podcast and somebody asked me this question. And now I ask it to my guests, as it were. And this particular question stomped me for about two minutes. I was like, What is the answer to that question? I've got absolutely no idea. So I'm gonna ask you, because I'm curious to know your answer. she said to me once, she said, What's one question that nobody has ever asked you that you wish that somebody would have asked you? Well that is a good question isn't it? I'm like, I'm gonna be stumped for two minutes now trying to think of the answer to that question. Like it could be about life, it could be about it could be about anything. Like what's one question that like nobody has ever asked you that you wish somebody would have asked you? Yeah I wish, I've been writing about this a bit recently actually and I'm about to write about it a bit more because I want it to help people. I wish someone had asked me how have you navigated being different from nearly everybody in your life at every point of your life because that's where I found myself. Not intentionally either. It's just like, just seem to think differently, act differently, do differently. And, you know, yeah, it's been an interesting way navigating family, friends, those, all those relationships, you know, work colleagues, like just, I am a bit maverick in every area of my life. And I love being that, but it's taken me a long time to lean into it. So I'd really love someone to have asked me. How? How have you got where you are being like that? Because there's a lot of challenge in it, kind of internally, in your own head. So yeah, I think that's the question I'd like someone to have asked me that they haven't. No, it's it's really difficult, isn't it? When you are different from your friends, you're different from your family, you're like, Am I the weird one? Are they the weird one? Like like who's the weird one in this? And I completely resonate, I completely understand for a lot of the the the listeners are going, Yep, Kirsty, I hear you. And it d do you know what? It's tough, isn't it? Because there are a lot of there are a lot of women at the moment, and I I know that you'll have this in your own community, Kirsty, and we have this within Girls and Property. where they're they really are trying to fight their way through this notion of they're now telling their their their partners this is what they want to do, they want to get out there. And a lot of people obviously are saying, well hold on a minute, this is new. You're changing. We've got this one all the time. You're changing. or do you really think you can do that? Do you really think you have what it takes? You know, let me ask you like how how did you find yourself navigating sort of like being different? How how did you do it? Well, I've basically had to be of the mindset that you either come with me on the journey or I leave you behind. And I've had to get comfortable with that. And then, you know, some people have been left behind forever. Others have come back later when they've kind of gone, oh, she did actually mean it. Oh, right. Okay. Well, yeah, I'll just accept her as she is and we'll be good. you know, and it's kind of, so yeah, but it has been really, really hard and it still is. So I find that every time you hit the next level, you have to level up again and you've got a bit more of it to deal with, you know, so, yeah, right now actually I find it, I find it a bit tough sometimes being the founder and leader of my business, which means that whilst I get on with all my team, I'm not one of them. And so they will go out and socialise and do things and I'm not invited. Because I'm the boss. Who wants their boss hanging around when you want to talk about them? But then also, I have a lot of friends and family who have always been employees and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that if that's how you want to live and it works for you in whatever format you do it in. I need to be with people that have a business mindset, not an employee mindset, because I find that we talk a different language and we think very differently. And then there's the other thing of I never wanted to have children. That's just something that I always knew from a teenager and nobody believed me until I turned at least 40. But anyway, that's another thing of being different. you know, a lot of my friends have children. and they're great and I spend time with them and I'm a great aunt and I always was going to be, I'm fun, you know, but then I give them back. you know, so I'm not, I'm not a mum and I'm excluded from all of that. Like I can't contribute, you know, because I'm not doing that and I can't help you to do it because I don't understand. that, you know, so I've just found myself throughout my life in groups of, I joined a male dominated industry. 27 years ago when only 5 % of surveyors were women. It was a challenge. It still is. Just not as challenging as it was back then. you know, so I think, I think, yeah, and over time I just got used to it and built some resilience and it's about claiming your own identity and being comfortable in your own skin and ultimately saying, well, this is me, accept me as I am. or don't, your choice. And being comfortable with whatever choice the other person makes because you do lose some friends along the way and it's been painful but necessary in order to build the life that I now love living. So, you know, I always say investing in property for me, I think, is about designing a life that you love to live. No. And so ask yourself, do my current property investments enhance my life? Am I getting closer to the life that I want to live or not? And if not, what am I going to do about it? Hmm. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. And yeah, I resonate completely with what you were saying there, Kirsty. I completely resonate. Um I think that's been one of my toughest lessons actually is the fact that you lose people along the way. And for me, that's been really difficult. That's probably been one the most challenging things because one thing I've learned about myself um through the inner work is I'm a people pleaser. I'm a people pleaser. I've wanted to fit in my entire life. There's some deep rooted stuff from childhood in there. And so I'm desperate for people to like me. And one of the hardest things I've gone through is when people have gone, actually, this new version of you, Athena, we we don't want, we don't like where where we we don't we we we don't want it in our lives. And I'm like, okay. And to sit with that and to hear it and to accept it. Or actually, actually, hold on, let me give myself a little bit of credit here. Actually, sorry, I've got to check in with myself there. Actually, sometimes I've had to be the one to say to others, actually, I need to walk. Because what you're doing to me is actually not right. So let me just rephrase that a little bit, because I also do walk sometimes. And I think that what that makes space for then is people who then do accept you and do see you and you can be yourself. So I think that was beautifully answered, Kirsty. So thank you for that. So so rumble with your answer. Um so many people are gonna want to get in contact with you today. Um so on socials and things, where's the best place for people to find you? Best place to find me is on LinkedIn. m That's where I live the most and answer fastest um on social. um Or you can have look at our website, kdcommercial.co.uk as well. But the best place to find us is LinkedIn. Okay, amazing. And just put your full name in, yeah. Yeah, just put Kirsty Darkins in, I'll pop up and you can connect. Yay. Fantastic. And as always, guys, I am Athene Dobson underscore official, girls in property. And then just to give you all a reminder, so the girls in property um community is is like I don't even know how to explain it anymore. Like I've run out of words for it. Like it's just family. It's the only word, like La Familia, I'm in Spain. Like it's just the best thing since life spread, it really is. Um we're at I've still got my target of one seventy before the twenty second of August before I go away to Canada. I think by the time this episode comes out, I mean on the like mid July, we're on £155,£157, something like that. So I'm I'm nearly hit target basically for £170. So we're nearly there now. Don't forget that on the first of August we are increasing the price from Girls and Property to £40 a month from £30 a month plus VAT. So if you are gonna get in, please, please, please, please, because it's silly if you don't otherwise, please get in at the £30 a month. You get the grandfather rights, and then you get lifetime access for the £30. We do two calls a month. Uh, we've got the library full of all of the information, whether it's HMOs, rent to rent, service accommodation, whatever it is. It is all there at your fingertips in the library within it. We've got the 24-hour platform on Circle. It is not a WhatsApp group. I do not do glorified WhatsApp groups, it's not my style, it's on circle, it's all professional, it's all there. Um, yeah, and then I'm gonna start a little mini podcast series for it as well. We do our five-day challenges, we adjusted our five-day challenge where 98% of the women made a thousand pounds in five days, which was epic to say the least. so if you want any information on that, just go to the show notes and you can see the little video that I've put in there about that is over Sarah, all about it. Um, and yeah, let's just let's just get the family together, let's just do it, let's just have these conversations, let's bring people together and let's bring women together to really, really show what this industry is made of. Like we are stronger together, we always have been and always will be. So If you want any information, just DM me the word community. And don't forget our community leader, Amy Miller, is also doing 15-minute discovery calls for the community as well. So if you want to become a call just so you can see the behind the scenes, see what it's all about, then then you know um again in the show notes you can actually hit that up and and do that there. Um but Kirsty, I'd love to give you the sort of the parting final words for today. So what are your parting words for everyone? My parting words are decide what kind of life you want and then say no to everything that isn't that in property and life. Could not say it better myself. Beautifully said. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on today. Love to have you on. Um, and as always, guys, you're welcome. And as always, guys, you know, if you've got any recommendations like like people recommended Kirsty to me, then do do give me a do give me a shout. I'm always listening, I'm always open. This podcast was built for you. It always will be built for you. What you want to learn about, what you want to hear about. I like doing a mix of property, I like doing a mix of mindset, I like doing all sorts of things. As long as they're good-hearted, interesting people, I'm open. To it. So look after yourselves, check in, DM me, and um yeah, just just go be happy. And as Kirsi said, just go and think of the life you want to live. So take care, have a good week. Sending loads of love. Bye for now. Okay.