{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":0.0,"endTime":10.5,"body":"Hi I'm Imogen"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":0.0,"endTime":10.5,"body":"Tyler. Welcome to The Stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":10.5,"endTime":19.23,"body":"Conversations. I'm a sociologist"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":10.5,"endTime":19.23,"body":"working on social inequalities"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":19.47,"endTime":24.06,"body":"and here I'm meeting activists,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":19.47,"endTime":24.06,"body":"academics and frontline workers"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":24.27,"endTime":29.43,"body":"to rethink stigma, how it works,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":24.27,"endTime":29.43,"body":"where it comes from, why it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":29.43,"endTime":34.65,"body":"matters in a society broken by"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":29.43,"endTime":34.65,"body":"poverty, prejudice, injustice."},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":35.89,"endTime":38.89,"body":"What it"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":35.89,"endTime":38.89,"body":"leads us to is societies that"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":38.89,"endTime":43.45,"body":"are based on fear, on"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":38.89,"endTime":43.45,"body":"inequalities, on people without"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":43.45,"endTime":47.11,"body":"basic rights – it creates a"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":43.45,"endTime":47.11,"body":"society where you've got groups"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":47.11,"endTime":49.72,"body":"of people always looking over"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":47.11,"endTime":49.72,"body":"their shoulder who are"},{"speaker":"Professor Alice Bloch","startTime":49.75,"endTime":51.76,"body":"vulnerable permanently."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":52.81,"endTime":56.56,"body":"A lot of people come"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":52.81,"endTime":56.56,"body":"to us simply to say, my life's"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":56.56,"endTime":60.25,"body":"terrible, and I don't know what"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":56.56,"endTime":60.25,"body":"to do about it. And a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":60.28,"endTime":63.19,"body":"physical and mental health"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":60.28,"endTime":63.19,"body":"stresses that they are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":63.19,"endTime":66.82,"body":"experiencing, are actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":63.19,"endTime":66.82,"body":"directly related to poverty."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":69.25,"endTime":71.71,"body":"I've been thinking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":69.25,"endTime":71.71,"body":"about stigma for ages. And in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":71.71,"endTime":76.21,"body":"2020 I wrote a book mapping out"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":71.71,"endTime":76.21,"body":"a new way of understanding"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":76.21,"endTime":81.28,"body":"stigma as a form of power. Why"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":76.21,"endTime":81.28,"body":"new? Look at how stigma's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":81.28,"endTime":85.24,"body":"usually talked about – take"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":81.28,"endTime":85.24,"body":"taboo busting campaigns around"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":85.24,"endTime":89.17,"body":"mental health these tend to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":85.24,"endTime":89.17,"body":"focus on talking about feelings"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":89.17,"endTime":93.25,"body":"and experiences. And that's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":89.17,"endTime":93.25,"body":"crucial because stigma is real,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":93.28,"endTime":97.69,"body":"personal, and literally deadly"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":93.28,"endTime":97.69,"body":"serious. It digs into your skin,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":97.69,"endTime":102.64,"body":"it makes you doubt your self"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":97.69,"endTime":102.64,"body":"worth. But – as well as asking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":102.64,"endTime":106.9,"body":"how stigma makes us feel – I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":102.64,"endTime":106.9,"body":"think we must also ask how it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":106.9,"endTime":111.43,"body":"produced, why and from where?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":106.9,"endTime":111.43,"body":"Because I don't think it's just"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":111.43,"endTime":115.45,"body":"some byproduct of an unequal"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":111.43,"endTime":115.45,"body":"society. I think stigmas"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":115.45,"endTime":120.19,"body":"orchestrated actually – to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":115.45,"endTime":120.19,"body":"enable reproduce and normalise"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":120.22,"endTime":124.75,"body":"those inequalities. And if we"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":120.22,"endTime":124.75,"body":"don't call out the systems –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":124.9,"endTime":130.69,"body":"poverty, racism ableism colonial"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":124.9,"endTime":130.69,"body":"capitalism – that create and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":130.69,"endTime":134.26,"body":"compound stigma and distress in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":130.69,"endTime":134.26,"body":"the first place – then we just"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":134.26,"endTime":138.37,"body":"go round in circles while the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":134.26,"endTime":138.37,"body":"elite few gain from the division"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":138.37,"endTime":139.69,"body":"stigma creates."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":146.29,"endTime":150.25,"body":"Okay, that might all sound a bit"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":146.29,"endTime":150.25,"body":"right on, not least with the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":150.25,"endTime":154.75,"body":"\"war on woke\". But that itself"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":150.25,"endTime":154.75,"body":"is a product of ramped up stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":154.75,"endTime":159.49,"body":"politics, and seeing stigma as a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":154.75,"endTime":159.49,"body":"top down thing really matters"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":159.91,"endTime":163.9,"body":"–what I call stigma power –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":159.91,"endTime":163.9,"body":"dehumanises, the most vulnerable"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":163.93,"endTime":167.56,"body":"and it makes them expect and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":163.93,"endTime":167.56,"body":"settled for less. It makes us"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":167.56,"endTime":172.72,"body":"devalue ourselves and others and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":167.56,"endTime":172.72,"body":"it's everywhere. Seeing this"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":172.72,"endTime":177.22,"body":"makes us angry. But recognising"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":172.72,"endTime":177.22,"body":"stigma for what it is – about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":177.22,"endTime":181.42,"body":"power rooted in history –helps"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":177.22,"endTime":181.42,"body":"us see how the machinery of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":181.42,"endTime":185.89,"body":"stigma power really works. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":181.42,"endTime":185.89,"body":"making that visible helps us to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":185.89,"endTime":190.21,"body":"have more hopeful conversations."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":185.89,"endTime":190.21,"body":"It can even help us throw a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":190.21,"endTime":191.95,"body":"spanner into the machine."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":192.56,"endTime":196.82,"body":"We are at, I would"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":192.56,"endTime":196.82,"body":"say an apocalyptic moment. That"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":196.82,"endTime":199.37,"body":"means things have been revealed"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":196.82,"endTime":199.37,"body":"for what they're truly like."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":200.06,"endTime":206.18,"body":"Apocalypse simply means to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":200.06,"endTime":206.18,"body":"reveal. And so now is the exact"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":206.18,"endTime":208.82,"body":"moment in which the fulcrum"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":206.18,"endTime":208.82,"body":"turns."},{"speaker":"Helen Greatorex","startTime":209.56,"endTime":211.51,"body":"Because if"},{"speaker":"Helen Greatorex","startTime":209.56,"endTime":211.51,"body":"you're outraged about something,"},{"speaker":"Helen Greatorex","startTime":211.51,"endTime":215.5,"body":"the chances are, it's linked to"},{"speaker":"Helen Greatorex","startTime":211.51,"endTime":215.5,"body":"some sort of policy that could"},{"speaker":"Helen Greatorex","startTime":215.5,"endTime":219.25,"body":"be changed, that could then"},{"speaker":"Helen Greatorex","startTime":215.5,"endTime":219.25,"body":"improve people's lives."},{"speaker":"Geraldine Onek","startTime":220.36,"endTime":221.8,"body":"I think with"},{"speaker":"Geraldine Onek","startTime":220.36,"endTime":221.8,"body":"antiracism, it's that"},{"speaker":"Geraldine Onek","startTime":221.8,"endTime":224.89,"body":"proactivity isn't it like –"},{"speaker":"Geraldine Onek","startTime":221.8,"endTime":224.89,"body":"actively having those"},{"speaker":"Geraldine Onek","startTime":224.89,"endTime":227.26,"body":"discussions, even though they"},{"speaker":"Geraldine Onek","startTime":224.89,"endTime":227.26,"body":"make you feel uncomfortable?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":228.67,"endTime":232.06,"body":"That's Andy, Helen"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":228.67,"endTime":232.06,"body":"and Geraldine, activists and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":232.06,"endTime":235.75,"body":"frontline workers from where I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":232.06,"endTime":235.75,"body":"live in northwest England, more"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":235.75,"endTime":236.77,"body":"from them soon."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":247.57,"endTime":251.59,"body":"But I wanted to start the series"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":247.57,"endTime":251.59,"body":"by talking to my sociologist"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":251.59,"endTime":255.34,"body":"friend and colleague, Michaela"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":251.59,"endTime":255.34,"body":"Benson, who I spent lots of time"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":255.34,"endTime":259.72,"body":"with when I was starting to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":255.34,"endTime":259.72,"body":"write about stigma around 2016."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":260.08,"endTime":263.2,"body":"And I asked her if she"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":260.08,"endTime":263.2,"body":"remembered those conversations."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":263.85,"endTime":265.77,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":263.85,"endTime":265.77,"body":"definitely do. I mean, it was a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":265.77,"endTime":269.97,"body":"time where you and I were taking"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":265.77,"endTime":269.97,"body":"time to walk and talk together"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":269.97,"endTime":274.44,"body":"about sociology, you seem to be"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":269.97,"endTime":274.44,"body":"really troubled by this very"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":274.44,"endTime":278.31,"body":"common place concept of stigma,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":274.44,"endTime":278.31,"body":"which is really widespread in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":278.31,"endTime":282.42,"body":"sociology. That's been written"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":278.31,"endTime":282.42,"body":"about by people like Goffman."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":282.87,"endTime":286.74,"body":"And you seem to really be"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":282.87,"endTime":286.74,"body":"questioning what value it would"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":286.74,"endTime":289.65,"body":"add to revisit this at this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":286.74,"endTime":289.65,"body":"point in time and to think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":289.65,"endTime":290.97,"body":"differently about it."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":291.29,"endTime":294.26,"body":"Yeah, in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":291.29,"endTime":294.26,"body":"particular, that focus on"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":294.26,"endTime":295.73,"body":"individuals and interaction that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":294.26,"endTime":295.73,"body":"is sort of how stigma is written"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":295.73,"endTime":297.08,"body":"about in sociology and in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":295.73,"endTime":297.08,"body":"psychology, and what's missing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":297.08,"endTime":303.74,"body":"from that. So I was really kind"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":297.08,"endTime":303.74,"body":"of caught up in this idea of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":307.52,"endTime":312.71,"body":"well, stigma, whatever it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":307.52,"endTime":312.71,"body":"around – disability or it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":312.71,"endTime":317.39,"body":"around class, it's around"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":312.71,"endTime":317.39,"body":"poverty or welfare – I really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":317.39,"endTime":321.56,"body":"wanted to look up and start"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":317.39,"endTime":321.56,"body":"thinking about where stigmas"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":321.56,"endTime":325.7,"body":"coming from in the first place."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":321.56,"endTime":325.7,"body":"And also look back and try and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":325.7,"endTime":329.78,"body":"think about what the histories"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":325.7,"endTime":329.78,"body":"of kind of different forms of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":329.78,"endTime":333.44,"body":"stigmatisation are. So as well"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":329.78,"endTime":333.44,"body":"as thinking about how stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":333.44,"endTime":338.51,"body":"makes people feel, I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":333.44,"endTime":338.51,"body":"think about stigma more as a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":338.51,"endTime":339.89,"body":"kind of form of power."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":340.32,"endTime":342.45,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":340.32,"endTime":342.45,"body":"it comes across really clearly –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":342.45,"endTime":346.44,"body":"that idea of stigmatisation"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":342.45,"endTime":346.44,"body":"being the process and exploring"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":346.44,"endTime":349.32,"body":"that process. And then from"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":346.44,"endTime":349.32,"body":"there, thinking about power and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":349.32,"endTime":350.64,"body":"politics, actually."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":351.08,"endTime":354.23,"body":"Yeah. And what I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":351.08,"endTime":354.23,"body":"felt was missing, one of the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":354.23,"endTime":358.67,"body":"things – is how certain ways of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":354.23,"endTime":358.67,"body":"thinking and writing about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":358.67,"endTime":362.48,"body":"stigma in the past had kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":358.67,"endTime":362.48,"body":"been missed in contemporary sort"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":362.48,"endTime":366.02,"body":"of sociology and social thought."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":362.48,"endTime":366.02,"body":"So one of the things I really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":366.02,"endTime":369.89,"body":"wanted to do is foreground"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":366.02,"endTime":369.89,"body":"racism as a kind of particular"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":370.16,"endTime":374.87,"body":"form of stigmatisation. And also"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":370.16,"endTime":374.87,"body":"draw in things like black"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":374.87,"endTime":380.21,"body":"scholarship – Dubois's work, for"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":374.87,"endTime":380.21,"body":"example – which has often been"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":380.21,"endTime":384.77,"body":"left out of sociologies, as you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":380.21,"endTime":384.77,"body":"know. But also kind of more"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":384.77,"endTime":387.71,"body":"activist types writing from the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":384.77,"endTime":387.71,"body":"Civil Rights Movement, for"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":387.71,"endTime":392.42,"body":"example – that explicitly talk"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":387.71,"endTime":392.42,"body":"about racial stigma. So the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":392.42,"endTime":395.48,"body":"Black Power movement is one of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":392.42,"endTime":395.48,"body":"the things that I began to think"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":395.48,"endTime":399.89,"body":"about as a kind of anti stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":395.48,"endTime":399.89,"body":"movement that sought to really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":399.89,"endTime":405.86,"body":"rehumanise Black populations in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":399.89,"endTime":405.86,"body":"the US against kind of the power"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":405.89,"endTime":408.71,"body":"of racism, or racial stigma."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":409.37,"endTime":411.98,"body":"I think what's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":409.37,"endTime":411.98,"body":"really interesting about it is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":412.01,"endTime":414.59,"body":"that your kind of imagining of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":412.01,"endTime":414.59,"body":"all of this, and your kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":414.59,"endTime":418.37,"body":"bringing all of those things"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":414.59,"endTime":418.37,"body":"together, is unique in thinking"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":418.37,"endTime":420.71,"body":"across those different things"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":418.37,"endTime":420.71,"body":"that were happening at that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":420.71,"endTime":425.12,"body":"point in time. And I think that,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":420.71,"endTime":425.12,"body":"you know, it's not, it's not a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":425.12,"endTime":429.32,"body":"surprise that you started to ask"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":425.12,"endTime":429.32,"body":"those questions when we were"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":429.32,"endTime":432.2,"body":"having those conversations,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":429.32,"endTime":432.2,"body":"which I think was around"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":432.29,"endTime":434.99,"body":"2015/2016."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":435.41,"endTime":438.65,"body":"Yeah, because in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":435.41,"endTime":438.65,"body":"that moment, of course, there"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":438.65,"endTime":442.85,"body":"was what I would call the stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":438.65,"endTime":442.85,"body":"politics of Trump – this"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":442.88,"endTime":446.93,"body":"credible online explosion of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":442.88,"endTime":446.93,"body":"hate speech, etc, that was"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":446.93,"endTime":453.05,"body":"surrounding that. Also, we were"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":446.93,"endTime":453.05,"body":"leading up to Brexit. And you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":453.05,"endTime":457.55,"body":"know, the politics of Brexit,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":453.05,"endTime":457.55,"body":"which again led to huge"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":457.55,"endTime":460.4,"body":"stigmatisation of particular"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":457.55,"endTime":460.4,"body":"groups–  in particular kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":460.4,"endTime":464.93,"body":"migrants. So we're in this sort"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":460.4,"endTime":464.93,"body":"of period of a kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":464.93,"endTime":468.83,"body":"intensification of what I began"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":464.93,"endTime":468.83,"body":"to think of as a kind of top"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":468.83,"endTime":472.43,"body":"down stigma politics – where"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":468.83,"endTime":472.43,"body":"groups if you like, who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":472.43,"endTime":478.91,"body":"previously won rights – were"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":472.43,"endTime":478.91,"body":"being attacked, from queer to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":478.91,"endTime":483.02,"body":"trans people to women, and kind"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":478.91,"endTime":483.02,"body":"of intensification of misogyny,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":483.02,"endTime":487.88,"body":"etc. And I think really, that's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":483.02,"endTime":487.88,"body":"intensified since. You know,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":487.88,"endTime":491.84,"body":"we've got this so called \"war on"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":487.88,"endTime":491.84,"body":"woke\" and for me that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":491.84,"endTime":495.89,"body":"I understand that precisely as"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":491.84,"endTime":495.89,"body":"an intensification of a sort of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":495.89,"endTime":501.26,"body":"stigma politics, which is kind"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":495.89,"endTime":501.26,"body":"of extended to include, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":501.26,"endTime":504.98,"body":"know, a vast array of groups –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":501.26,"endTime":504.98,"body":"from trans people, even"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":504.98,"endTime":508.46,"body":"environmental campaigners, and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":504.98,"endTime":508.46,"body":"even those working on the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":508.46,"endTime":512.66,"body":"frontline of the current kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":508.46,"endTime":512.66,"body":"economic crisis – are also"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":512.66,"endTime":517.16,"body":"finding themselves drawn into"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":512.66,"endTime":517.16,"body":"this sort of intensification of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":517.16,"endTime":518.27,"body":"sort of hate speech."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":518.0,"endTime":521.3,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":518.0,"endTime":521.3,"body":"that's a really useful point"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":521.33,"endTime":526.76,"body":"around how the scale of this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":521.33,"endTime":526.76,"body":"stigmatisation seems to have"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":526.76,"endTime":530.72,"body":"expanded that kind of sense of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":526.76,"endTime":530.72,"body":"intensification. But I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":530.72,"endTime":533.27,"body":"that there's another side to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":530.72,"endTime":533.27,"body":"this too – that you tease out in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":533.27,"endTime":536.78,"body":"your work – which is to kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":533.27,"endTime":536.78,"body":"consider what that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":536.78,"endTime":539.54,"body":"stigmatisation is doing, not"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":536.78,"endTime":539.54,"body":"just for the people who are"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":539.54,"endTime":544.73,"body":"experiencing it, but also in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":539.54,"endTime":544.73,"body":"respect to politics and power."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":544.73,"endTime":548.15,"body":"And I wondered if you wanted to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":544.73,"endTime":548.15,"body":"unpack that a little bit more?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":548.93,"endTime":552.41,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":548.93,"endTime":552.41,"body":"suppose I began to think about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":552.41,"endTime":555.71,"body":"what's the role of stigma in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":552.41,"endTime":555.71,"body":"kind of, the government of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":555.71,"endTime":560.06,"body":"people. So what role is stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":555.71,"endTime":560.06,"body":"playing in, for example, the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":560.06,"endTime":564.71,"body":"demonization of people claiming"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":560.06,"endTime":564.71,"body":"benefits, and how that isn't"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":564.71,"endTime":569.57,"body":"just to demonise those people –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":564.71,"endTime":569.57,"body":"that's also a means to kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":569.57,"endTime":573.44,"body":"legitamate particular social"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":569.57,"endTime":573.44,"body":"policies – such as austerity and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":573.44,"endTime":576.74,"body":"the rollback of the welfare"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":573.44,"endTime":576.74,"body":"state. So I began to really try"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":576.74,"endTime":582.14,"body":"and connect what I saw as top"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":576.74,"endTime":582.14,"body":"down stigma production, not only"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":582.14,"endTime":586.1,"body":"on its impact on individuals"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":582.14,"endTime":586.1,"body":"– but actually what its kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":586.43,"endTime":590.93,"body":"wider purpose or role may be –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":586.43,"endTime":590.93,"body":"and the way in which you kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":590.93,"endTime":595.25,"body":"create social divisions in the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":590.93,"endTime":595.25,"body":"process. And it's sort of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":595.55,"endTime":599.51,"body":"creates a sort of divide and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":595.55,"endTime":599.51,"body":"rule sort of strategy – frames"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":599.51,"endTime":602.48,"body":"particular Groups is more"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":599.51,"endTime":602.48,"body":"deserving or more legitimate"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":602.48,"endTime":607.4,"body":"than others, devalues people."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":602.48,"endTime":607.4,"body":"You know, I think welfare stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":607.4,"endTime":610.91,"body":"is a really good example. But I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":607.4,"endTime":610.91,"body":"also think a really current"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":610.91,"endTime":615.92,"body":"example and an ongoing example"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":610.91,"endTime":615.92,"body":"is the dehumanisation of migrant"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":615.92,"endTime":617.63,"body":"populations in the UK."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":618.05,"endTime":619.88,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":618.05,"endTime":619.88,"body":"one of the things that really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":619.88,"endTime":624.62,"body":"stands out to me is this idea of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":619.88,"endTime":624.62,"body":"stigma becoming inscribed on the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":624.62,"endTime":628.04,"body":"body – of bodies actually being"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":624.62,"endTime":628.04,"body":"marked by it."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":628.54,"endTime":631.12,"body":"Yeah, I mean, one,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":628.54,"endTime":631.12,"body":"one of the things that I did"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":631.12,"endTime":633.55,"body":"when I began thinking about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":631.12,"endTime":633.55,"body":"stigma was to go back to its"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":633.55,"endTime":638.83,"body":"etymology – and stigma came from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":633.55,"endTime":638.83,"body":"a ancient Greek word for tattoo."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":638.83,"endTime":642.94,"body":"So it really meant a penal"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":638.83,"endTime":642.94,"body":"tattoo. So it was literally a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":642.94,"endTime":646.63,"body":"tattoo written on the body. So,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":642.94,"endTime":646.63,"body":"for example, if you were a slave"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":646.63,"endTime":649.87,"body":"in ancient Greece, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":646.63,"endTime":649.87,"body":"you stole something, you might"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":649.87,"endTime":653.11,"body":"have \"I am a thief\" tattooed on"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":649.87,"endTime":653.11,"body":"your forehead. So I began to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":653.11,"endTime":657.82,"body":"think about stigma, as a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":653.11,"endTime":657.82,"body":"practice of power that is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":657.82,"endTime":663.28,"body":"written on the body. Tracing the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":657.82,"endTime":663.28,"body":"meaning of the word became key"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":663.64,"endTime":667.09,"body":"to developing a new theoretical"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":663.64,"endTime":667.09,"body":"understanding of the term for"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":667.09,"endTime":667.42,"body":"me,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":667.96,"endTime":670.75,"body":"That's really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":667.96,"endTime":670.75,"body":"clear also in the way that you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":670.78,"endTime":673.69,"body":"title that final chapter – which"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":670.78,"endTime":673.69,"body":"is always the one that stands"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":673.69,"endTime":677.17,"body":"out to me – which is the one"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":673.69,"endTime":677.17,"body":"that's based on your own"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":677.17,"endTime":680.41,"body":"experiences of being"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":677.17,"endTime":680.41,"body":"stigmatised. The title of the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":680.41,"endTime":683.83,"body":"chapter is \"Shame lives on the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":680.41,"endTime":683.83,"body":"eyelids\" – and I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":683.83,"endTime":689.41,"body":"really captures that sense of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":683.83,"endTime":689.41,"body":"how stigma marks bodies. So I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":689.41,"endTime":692.5,"body":"think...  the other thing that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":689.41,"endTime":692.5,"body":"really stands out to me is how"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":692.5,"endTime":696.64,"body":"that concept of stigma power"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":692.5,"endTime":696.64,"body":"threads together a whole set of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":696.64,"endTime":700.96,"body":"examples that normally we don't"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":696.64,"endTime":700.96,"body":"see in conversation with one"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":700.96,"endTime":705.64,"body":"another, but also the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":700.96,"endTime":705.64,"body":"possibility of resistance,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":705.67,"endTime":708.28,"body":"nonetheless, to some of that."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":709.02,"endTime":710.52,"body":"It's funny, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":709.02,"endTime":710.52,"body":"should mention the final"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":710.52,"endTime":714.15,"body":"chapter, because that chapter"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":710.52,"endTime":714.15,"body":"partly came out of our"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":714.15,"endTime":716.94,"body":"conversations – and I probably"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":714.15,"endTime":716.94,"body":"wouldn't have included that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":716.94,"endTime":719.79,"body":"chapter in the book if you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":716.94,"endTime":719.79,"body":"hadn't persuaded me to Michaela."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":720.06,"endTime":724.26,"body":"But I guess this is really where"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":720.06,"endTime":724.26,"body":"I start to reflect on why I'm"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":724.26,"endTime":728.76,"body":"interested in the concept of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":724.26,"endTime":728.76,"body":"stigma on a personal level, as"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":728.76,"endTime":732.6,"body":"well as a scholarly level. And I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":728.76,"endTime":732.6,"body":"start to reflect on my own"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":732.6,"endTime":735.84,"body":"background in that chapter. You"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":732.6,"endTime":735.84,"body":"know – growing up in a working"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":735.84,"endTime":739.68,"body":"class family in a very remote"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":735.84,"endTime":739.68,"body":"rural village, meeting an"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":739.68,"endTime":744.12,"body":"anthropologist and discovering"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":739.68,"endTime":744.12,"body":"through this anthropologist that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":744.63,"endTime":748.17,"body":"the village I'd grown up in had"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":744.63,"endTime":748.17,"body":"been the subject of a covert"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":748.17,"endTime":752.55,"body":"study. That was quite a shocking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":748.17,"endTime":752.55,"body":"realisation that I was kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":752.55,"endTime":757.38,"body":"the object of a kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":752.55,"endTime":757.38,"body":"anthropological gaze and one"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":757.38,"endTime":760.98,"body":"which I found then very"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":757.38,"endTime":760.98,"body":"stigmatising – you know, the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":760.98,"endTime":764.4,"body":"realisation of that. Which is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":760.98,"endTime":764.4,"body":"also kind of a set of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":764.4,"endTime":769.56,"body":"reflections on, you know, class"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":764.4,"endTime":769.56,"body":"and stigma and shame and being"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":769.56,"endTime":774.66,"body":"made to feel ashamed because you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":769.56,"endTime":774.66,"body":"don't fit in a particular kind"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":774.66,"endTime":778.92,"body":"of middle class type"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":774.66,"endTime":778.92,"body":"environment. And at the end of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":779.25,"endTime":784.02,"body":"publishing the book, I actually"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":779.25,"endTime":784.02,"body":"went and got a tattoo – which"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":784.02,"endTime":787.65,"body":"was kind of a personal way of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":784.02,"endTime":787.65,"body":"marking... completing the book."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":788.04,"endTime":791.91,"body":"And I got the Greek word for"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":788.04,"endTime":791.91,"body":"stigma tattooed – and I think it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":791.91,"endTime":794.37,"body":"was your partner Michaela – who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":791.91,"endTime":794.37,"body":"actually checked the spelling"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":794.37,"endTime":797.88,"body":"for me to check that I wasn't"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":794.37,"endTime":797.88,"body":"tattooing myself permanently"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":798.06,"endTime":803.85,"body":"with something else. So yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":798.06,"endTime":803.85,"body":"that was kind of an interesting"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":803.88,"endTime":808.89,"body":"process for me personally – to,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":803.88,"endTime":808.89,"body":"to reflect on those histories"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":808.89,"endTime":811.98,"body":"mysel – my own relationship to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":808.89,"endTime":811.98,"body":"being stigmatised and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":811.98,"endTime":815.73,"body":"experiencing stigma – but also"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":811.98,"endTime":815.73,"body":"kind of wanting to mark that."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":815.91,"endTime":819.03,"body":"In.. so when you talk about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":815.91,"endTime":819.03,"body":"resistance, I'm really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":819.03,"endTime":824.01,"body":"interested in the ways in which"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":819.03,"endTime":824.01,"body":"stigmatising marks or marking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":824.01,"endTime":827.25,"body":"out the other.. cannot... is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":824.01,"endTime":827.25,"body":"also a site of struggle and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":827.25,"endTime":831.39,"body":"resistance. And it's also the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":827.25,"endTime":831.39,"body":"ways in which and throughout,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":831.42,"endTime":834.99,"body":"you know, my work are trying to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":831.42,"endTime":834.99,"body":"think about – okay, you're being"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":834.99,"endTime":838.65,"body":"stigmatised but you... there's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":834.99,"endTime":838.65,"body":"something of you that always"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":838.65,"endTime":841.41,"body":"evades that – there's something"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":838.65,"endTime":841.41,"body":"of the human that can always"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":841.41,"endTime":844.95,"body":"evade and resist that process of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":841.41,"endTime":844.95,"body":"stigmatisation. So getting a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":844.95,"endTime":849.09,"body":"tattoo myself was a way of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":844.95,"endTime":849.09,"body":"thinking about my own resistance"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":849.33,"endTime":853.32,"body":"to practices of and experiences"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":849.33,"endTime":853.32,"body":"of stigmatisation. And that's a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":853.32,"endTime":856.8,"body":"kind of theme in the work."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":853.32,"endTime":856.8,"body":"Stigma is never complete – if"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":856.8,"endTime":860.22,"body":"you like and never fully"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":856.8,"endTime":860.22,"body":"captures somebody. And there's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":860.22,"endTime":865.02,"body":"always resistance and struggle"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":860.22,"endTime":865.02,"body":"in relationship to stigma power."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":865.0,"endTime":869.5,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":865.0,"endTime":869.5,"body":"a really important point. I just"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":869.5,"endTime":874.66,"body":"wondered if you wanted to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":869.5,"endTime":874.66,"body":"reflect on similar processes –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":875.08,"endTime":879.52,"body":"particularly in respect to the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":875.08,"endTime":879.52,"body":"points about migrants that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":879.52,"endTime":881.26,"body":"you've been making so far?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":881.66,"endTime":884.81,"body":"You know, over the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":881.66,"endTime":884.81,"body":"last year, I think, and much"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":884.81,"endTime":887.63,"body":"longer you know, we saw this in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":884.81,"endTime":887.63,"body":"Brexit – and I can ask you about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":887.63,"endTime":893.36,"body":"that. You know, it's it's really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":887.63,"endTime":893.36,"body":"shocking the way in which people"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":893.48,"endTime":899.63,"body":"on the move can be so incredibly"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":893.48,"endTime":899.63,"body":"dehumanised – both by the state"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":899.63,"endTime":903.71,"body":"and terms of politics, policiy,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":899.63,"endTime":903.71,"body":"state apparatus – and in kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":903.71,"endTime":908.87,"body":"media campaigns and the impacts"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":903.71,"endTime":908.87,"body":"of that. And you know, I was"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":908.87,"endTime":913.52,"body":"thinking about the recent"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":908.87,"endTime":913.52,"body":"example of the death of an"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":913.52,"endTime":919.7,"body":"asylum seeker at Manston and how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":913.52,"endTime":919.7,"body":"the dehumanisation of migrants –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":919.73,"endTime":923.54,"body":"and particularly of asylum"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":919.73,"endTime":923.54,"body":"seeking populations – has become"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":923.54,"endTime":927.95,"body":"so incredibly normalised. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":923.54,"endTime":927.95,"body":"that how that's become"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":927.95,"endTime":931.94,"body":"normalised is through these"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":927.95,"endTime":931.94,"body":"longer histories and practices"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":931.94,"endTime":935.96,"body":"of stigmatisation and othering"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":931.94,"endTime":935.96,"body":"of that group. I mean, to turn"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":935.96,"endTime":939.14,"body":"the question back to you, I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":935.96,"endTime":939.14,"body":"mean, I know, Brexit and the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":939.14,"endTime":942.68,"body":"Brexit campaign and the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":939.14,"endTime":942.68,"body":"aftermath of Brexit is something"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":942.68,"endTime":946.22,"body":"that you have thought a lot"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":942.68,"endTime":946.22,"body":"about. I'd be interested to hear"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":946.25,"endTime":949.94,"body":"your reflections on, you know,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":946.25,"endTime":949.94,"body":"perhaps on Brexit and the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":949.94,"endTime":954.77,"body":"campaign itself – as engaging in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":949.94,"endTime":954.77,"body":"stigma politics at a kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":955.16,"endTime":956.48,"body":"national scale."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":956.0,"endTime":958.761,"body":"While you were"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":956.0,"endTime":958.761,"body":"speaking, one of the things I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":958.824,"endTime":962.59,"body":"was actually thinking about –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":958.824,"endTime":962.59,"body":"and this is true of the Brexit"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":962.653,"endTime":966.482,"body":"campaign, as much as everything"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":962.653,"endTime":966.482,"body":"else is – is the reduction of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":966.544,"endTime":970.059,"body":"migrants to numbers – which I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":966.544,"endTime":970.059,"body":"think is also a process of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":970.122,"endTime":974.014,"body":"dehumanisation–  and not seeing"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":970.122,"endTime":974.014,"body":"them A. as individuals or even"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":974.077,"endTime":977.466,"body":"as people, as agents of their"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":974.077,"endTime":977.466,"body":"own life. And instead of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":977.529,"endTime":981.42,"body":"thinking about, you know, all"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":977.529,"endTime":981.42,"body":"possible costs, we have to deter"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":981.483,"endTime":985.124,"body":"these people from arriving in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":981.483,"endTime":985.124,"body":"the UK in any way, shape, or"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":985.186,"endTime":988.325,"body":"form. And Brexit being the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":985.186,"endTime":988.325,"body":"political tool that was"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":988.388,"endTime":992.091,"body":"mobilised, apparently, to those,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":988.388,"endTime":992.091,"body":"to those ends. And I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":992.154,"endTime":995.48,"body":"subsequent to that – I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":992.154,"endTime":995.48,"body":"you've already mentioned"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":995.543,"endTime":999.56,"body":"Manston, the processing service"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":995.543,"endTime":999.56,"body":"centre for asylum – that I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":999.623,"endTime":1003.263,"body":"recently closed down actually,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":999.623,"endTime":1003.263,"body":"after quite a lot of public"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1003.326,"endTime":1007.029,"body":"outcry – which I see as you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1003.326,"endTime":1007.029,"body":"know, again, resistance to some"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1007.092,"endTime":1010.67,"body":"of that divide and rule stuff"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1007.092,"endTime":1010.67,"body":"that you were talking about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1010.733,"endTime":1014.75,"body":"before. But also that continued"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1010.733,"endTime":1014.75,"body":"kind of stigmatisation of people"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1014.813,"endTime":1018.453,"body":"arriving in the UK through"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1014.813,"endTime":1018.453,"body":"irregular means – as people who"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1018.516,"endTime":1021.78,"body":"are not deserving of being here"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1018.516,"endTime":1021.78,"body":"and not deserving of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1021.843,"endTime":1025.358,"body":"humanitarian treatment,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1021.843,"endTime":1025.358,"body":"actually. In a context where the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1025.42,"endTime":1028.998,"body":"government has opened up"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1025.42,"endTime":1028.998,"body":"explicit humanitarian routes for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1029.061,"endTime":1032.827,"body":"other populations. So that..."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1029.061,"endTime":1032.827,"body":"all of that process of sorting"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1032.89,"endTime":1036.844,"body":"and categorising stigmatisation"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1032.89,"endTime":1036.844,"body":"– the attaching to those people"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1036.907,"endTime":1040.485,"body":"arriving through irregular"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1036.907,"endTime":1040.485,"body":"routes as people who are doing"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1040.547,"endTime":1044.313,"body":"something wrong and therefore"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1040.547,"endTime":1044.313,"body":"should be punished for it. And"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1044.376,"endTime":1048.079,"body":"the punishment being either"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1044.376,"endTime":1048.079,"body":"you're left to drown at sea, or"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1048.142,"endTime":1051.845,"body":"you're deported to a country"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1048.142,"endTime":1051.845,"body":"that doesn't have a good track"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1051.908,"endTime":1055.674,"body":"record in human rights – and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1051.908,"endTime":1055.674,"body":"given no right to return to the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1055.737,"endTime":1059.754,"body":"UK through that – I think shows"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1055.737,"endTime":1059.754,"body":"how these things are playing out"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1059.817,"endTime":1061.01,"body":"in the present day."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1061.0,"endTime":1062.83,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1061.0,"endTime":1062.83,"body":"one of the things I really want"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1062.83,"endTime":1066.37,"body":"to do in relationship to the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1062.83,"endTime":1066.37,"body":"these sort of contemporary"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1066.37,"endTime":1071.32,"body":"issues, is think about the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1066.37,"endTime":1071.32,"body":"histories of stigma as ways of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1071.32,"endTime":1077.44,"body":"classifying and sorting people"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1071.32,"endTime":1077.44,"body":"into human, not quite human –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1077.89,"endTime":1082.6,"body":"it's that sort of classificatory"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1077.89,"endTime":1082.6,"body":"politics, it's entangled with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1082.6,"endTime":1086.59,"body":"stigma. And in the next episode,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1082.6,"endTime":1086.59,"body":"after this one Michaela, I'm"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1086.59,"endTime":1090.01,"body":"going to talk to another"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1086.59,"endTime":1090.01,"body":"sociologist – Alice Bloch, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1090.01,"endTime":1094.42,"body":"know – on those histories, and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1090.01,"endTime":1094.42,"body":"on her work on Holocaust"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1094.42,"endTime":1098.71,"body":"survivors, and the generations"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1094.42,"endTime":1098.71,"body":"afterwards. You know, going back"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1098.71,"endTime":1105.91,"body":"to this idea of stigma as bodily"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1098.71,"endTime":1105.91,"body":"marking, but yeah, I think you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1105.91,"endTime":1111.4,"body":"need that kind of historical way"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1105.91,"endTime":1111.4,"body":"of thinking about it, in order"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1111.4,"endTime":1116.35,"body":"to think about how these"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1111.4,"endTime":1116.35,"body":"patterns of stigma, actually,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1116.56,"endTime":1120.1,"body":"you know, have these historical"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1116.56,"endTime":1120.1,"body":"precedents and they kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1120.43,"endTime":1126.01,"body":"intensify at particular moments"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1120.43,"endTime":1126.01,"body":"in different ways – but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1126.01,"endTime":1129.85,"body":"understanding them for me in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1126.01,"endTime":1129.85,"body":"historical access gives us real"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1129.85,"endTime":1133.87,"body":"insight into the contemporary"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1129.85,"endTime":1133.87,"body":"moment actually.  And it can be"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1133.87,"endTime":1138.58,"body":"quite shocking to realise for"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1133.87,"endTime":1138.58,"body":"example – the repetition of how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1138.58,"endTime":1142.39,"body":"asylum seekers are stigmatised"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1138.58,"endTime":1142.39,"body":"today and the echoes of that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1142.39,"endTime":1147.49,"body":"with for example – genocides in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1142.39,"endTime":1147.49,"body":"Europe in the 20th century – and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1147.49,"endTime":1151.87,"body":"echoes back from that to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1147.49,"endTime":1151.87,"body":"colonial sort of practices of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1151.87,"endTime":1154.81,"body":"stigmatisation, dehumanisation"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1151.87,"endTime":1154.81,"body":"etc."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1155.29,"endTime":1157.24,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1155.29,"endTime":1157.24,"body":"really important. And I would"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1157.24,"endTime":1160.18,"body":"just add to that, that in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1157.24,"endTime":1160.18,"body":"addition to that, what you see –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1160.21,"endTime":1162.61,"body":"particularly when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1160.21,"endTime":1162.61,"body":"those conversations around the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1162.61,"endTime":1167.41,"body":"stigmatisation of migrants –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1162.61,"endTime":1167.41,"body":"then how those forms of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1167.41,"endTime":1170.44,"body":"stigmatisation were given"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1167.41,"endTime":1170.44,"body":"legitimacy through particular"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1170.44,"endTime":1173.11,"body":"modes of governing and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1170.44,"endTime":1173.11,"body":"controlling the movement and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1173.11,"endTime":1177.55,"body":"settlement of people. So you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1173.11,"endTime":1177.55,"body":"find these processes – many of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1177.55,"endTime":1179.92,"body":"which have their roots in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1177.55,"endTime":1179.92,"body":"colonialism, but also get"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1179.92,"endTime":1183.52,"body":"further entrenched through"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1179.92,"endTime":1183.52,"body":"eugenics and race science –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1183.88,"endTime":1190.12,"body":"finding their way into this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1183.88,"endTime":1190.12,"body":"almost acceptable form of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1190.36,"endTime":1194.47,"body":"governing people, which kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1190.36,"endTime":1194.47,"body":"embeds that stigmatisation"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1194.5,"endTime":1197.74,"body":"within, within the way of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1194.5,"endTime":1197.74,"body":"controlling those populations."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1198.02,"endTime":1201.47,"body":"Yeah, and another"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1198.02,"endTime":1201.47,"body":"example that springs to mind as"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1201.47,"endTime":1204.62,"body":"you're talking is the reports"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1201.47,"endTime":1204.62,"body":"that came out recently, back in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1204.62,"endTime":1209.78,"body":"November about the death in 2020"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1204.62,"endTime":1209.78,"body":"of 2 year old Awaab Ishak in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1209.78,"endTime":1214.22,"body":"Rochdale and how the Housing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1209.78,"endTime":1214.22,"body":"Association tried to kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1214.22,"endTime":1218.42,"body":"stigmatise and shift blame onto"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1214.22,"endTime":1218.42,"body":"the family for the damp and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1218.45,"endTime":1224.9,"body":"mould in the flat that they are"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1218.45,"endTime":1224.9,"body":"supposed to be upkeeping. In a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1224.9,"endTime":1227.96,"body":"way, stigmas tied up with this,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1224.9,"endTime":1227.96,"body":"these sorts of political"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1227.96,"endTime":1233.36,"body":"economies – of poverty, of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1227.96,"endTime":1233.36,"body":"migration – you know, and Engels"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1233.36,"endTime":1237.56,"body":"uses the term social murder to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1233.36,"endTime":1237.56,"body":"state sanctioned violence. And I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1237.56,"endTime":1240.23,"body":"think the dehumanisation of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1237.56,"endTime":1240.23,"body":"people from particular"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1240.23,"endTime":1244.64,"body":"communities – asylum seekers,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1240.23,"endTime":1244.64,"body":"migrants, but also people living"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1244.64,"endTime":1249.53,"body":"with poverty – are enabled"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1244.64,"endTime":1249.53,"body":"through this kind of stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1249.56,"endTime":1252.05,"body":"politics, it's sort of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1249.56,"endTime":1252.05,"body":"legitimates it."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1252.35,"endTime":1254.93,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1252.35,"endTime":1254.93,"body":"a really good bridge to talking"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1254.93,"endTime":1257.57,"body":"about the work that you've been"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1254.93,"endTime":1257.57,"body":"doing around poverty."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1257.56,"endTime":1260.607,"body":"Yeah. So I think"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1257.56,"endTime":1260.607,"body":"one of the things that stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1260.673,"endTime":1264.119,"body":"does is actually silences"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1260.673,"endTime":1264.119,"body":"people. You know, it hides"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1264.185,"endTime":1268.094,"body":"people it conceals the person"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1264.185,"endTime":1268.094,"body":"through the kind of labelling"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1268.16,"endTime":1271.87,"body":"and the naming, etc. And the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1268.16,"endTime":1271.87,"body":"kind of blizzard of sort of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1271.937,"endTime":1276.177,"body":"stigma publicity around certain"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1271.937,"endTime":1276.177,"body":"populations and groups. And what"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1276.243,"endTime":1280.417,"body":"we don't hear from is actually"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1276.243,"endTime":1280.417,"body":"the people who are experiencing,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1280.483,"endTime":1284.525,"body":"you know – whether it's poverty,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1280.483,"endTime":1284.525,"body":"whether it's being an asylum"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1284.591,"endTime":1288.5,"body":"seeker – we don't get to see"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1284.591,"endTime":1288.5,"body":"them or hear from them enough."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1288.566,"endTime":1292.409,"body":"And one of the things I've been"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1288.566,"endTime":1292.409,"body":"doing probably for about a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1292.475,"endTime":1295.854,"body":"decade now, is working with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1292.475,"endTime":1295.854,"body":"anti-poverty groups and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1295.921,"endTime":1299.83,"body":"activists. One thing I got very"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1295.921,"endTime":1299.83,"body":"involved in that was really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1299.896,"endTime":1303.871,"body":"influential to me –  in thinking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1299.896,"endTime":1303.871,"body":"about anti stigma practices"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1303.937,"endTime":1307.78,"body":"– was working with the Poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1303.937,"endTime":1307.78,"body":"Truth movement. And I was a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1307.846,"endTime":1312.087,"body":"member of a local Poverty Truth"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1307.846,"endTime":1312.087,"body":"Commission. And we'll be hearing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1312.153,"endTime":1316.194,"body":"from – later in episodes of some"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1312.153,"endTime":1316.194,"body":"of the people I work with on"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1316.261,"endTime":1320.236,"body":"that commission – and Poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1316.261,"endTime":1320.236,"body":"Truth is a  kind of grassroots"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1320.302,"endTime":1324.079,"body":"social movement, and it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1320.302,"endTime":1324.079,"body":"grounded in the principles that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1324.145,"endTime":1328.12,"body":"people would lift experience"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1324.145,"endTime":1328.12,"body":"need to have a voice and agency"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1328.186,"endTime":1332.36,"body":"in social and political decision"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1328.186,"endTime":1332.36,"body":"making. And that people living"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1332.427,"endTime":1336.336,"body":"in poverty aren't the problem."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1332.427,"endTime":1336.336,"body":"Poverty is the problem – but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1336.402,"endTime":1339.847,"body":"it's actually everybody's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1336.402,"endTime":1339.847,"body":"problem. And, you know, to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1339.913,"endTime":1343.822,"body":"transform the conditions of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1339.913,"endTime":1343.822,"body":"economic injustice, you have to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1343.889,"endTime":1347.996,"body":"have kind of attitudinal change,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1343.889,"endTime":1347.996,"body":"as well. And I kind of really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1348.063,"endTime":1352.038,"body":"began to think about Poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1348.063,"endTime":1352.038,"body":"Truth as a kind of anti stigma,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1352.104,"endTime":1356.212,"body":"movement, you know – a kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1352.104,"endTime":1356.212,"body":"response to that stigmatisation"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1356.278,"endTime":1360.253,"body":"of people claiming benefits as"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1356.278,"endTime":1360.253,"body":"welfare cheats, etc – that we"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1360.32,"endTime":1363.964,"body":"really saw escalate with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1360.32,"endTime":1363.964,"body":"austerity. You know, the other"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1364.03,"endTime":1368.071,"body":"side to that or how to fight"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1364.03,"endTime":1368.071,"body":"back against that, how to resist"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1368.138,"endTime":1372.113,"body":"that, is actually through deep"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1368.138,"endTime":1372.113,"body":"listening and engagement with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1372.179,"endTime":1376.353,"body":"people with lived experience –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1372.179,"endTime":1376.353,"body":"and kind of amplifying the voice"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1376.419,"endTime":1380.13,"body":"of lived experience in that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1376.419,"endTime":1380.13,"body":"debate. And we'll be hearing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1380.196,"endTime":1383.84,"body":"later on in the series from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1380.196,"endTime":1383.84,"body":"Helen Greatorex – who heads"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1383.906,"endTime":1387.484,"body":"Citizens Advice in North"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1383.906,"endTime":1387.484,"body":"Lancashire, who I met through"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1387.55,"endTime":1391.857,"body":"Poverty Truth – and also from my"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1387.55,"endTime":1391.857,"body":"friend, Andy Knox – who's a GP –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1391.923,"endTime":1396.031,"body":"who I also met through Poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1391.923,"endTime":1396.031,"body":"Truth Commission. And actually,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1396.097,"endTime":1400.006,"body":"one of the things I really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1396.097,"endTime":1400.006,"body":"learned from working with them –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1400.072,"endTime":1403.385,"body":"who are in a sense,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1400.072,"endTime":1403.385,"body":"professionals at the frontline"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1403.451,"endTime":1407.559,"body":"of the poverty crisis – is how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1403.451,"endTime":1407.559,"body":"the stigma of living in poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1407.625,"endTime":1411.799,"body":"not only impacts those who are"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1407.625,"endTime":1411.799,"body":"experiencing that stigma kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1411.865,"endTime":1416.039,"body":"firsthand – but also how it, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1411.865,"endTime":1416.039,"body":"know – increasingly perhaps at"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1416.106,"endTime":1420.346,"body":"the moment as we're in a poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1416.106,"endTime":1420.346,"body":"crisis now, in terms of cost of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1420.412,"endTime":1424.122,"body":"living – is it starts,  extends"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1420.412,"endTime":1424.122,"body":"to the stigmatisation of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1424.189,"endTime":1428.031,"body":"professionals and frontline"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1424.189,"endTime":1428.031,"body":"workers. So the sort of trauma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1428.098,"endTime":1432.338,"body":"of stigma not only impacts those"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1428.098,"endTime":1432.338,"body":"who are experiencing it, but it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1432.404,"endTime":1436.446,"body":"actually also impacts those who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1432.404,"endTime":1436.446,"body":"are allied to or working with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1436.512,"endTime":1438.5,"body":"those who are experiencing it."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1438.0,"endTime":1442.05,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1438.0,"endTime":1442.05,"body":"something that's allied to this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1442.11,"endTime":1445.02,"body":"– and it goes back to your"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1442.11,"endTime":1445.02,"body":"points around \"a war on work\" as"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1445.02,"endTime":1449.22,"body":"well –is my experience of having"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1445.02,"endTime":1449.22,"body":"done work on Brexit. In a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1449.22,"endTime":1453.15,"body":"context where this whole"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1449.22,"endTime":1453.15,"body":"political moment had been"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1453.15,"endTime":1457.62,"body":"narrated around the idea of the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1453.15,"endTime":1457.62,"body":"public having had enough of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1457.62,"endTime":1461.85,"body":"experts, for example. And for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1457.62,"endTime":1461.85,"body":"me, going through that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1461.85,"endTime":1466.68,"body":"experience made me wonder about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1461.85,"endTime":1466.68,"body":"– if as an academic with a high"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1466.68,"endTime":1470.58,"body":"level of expertise, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1466.68,"endTime":1470.58,"body":"education, somebody who knows a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1470.58,"endTime":1473.37,"body":"lot about what they're talking"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1470.58,"endTime":1473.37,"body":"about, has spent years studying"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1473.37,"endTime":1477.39,"body":"this, and occupies a position"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1473.37,"endTime":1477.39,"body":"that ordinarily we might"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1477.39,"endTime":1480.96,"body":"consider as relatively powerful"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1477.39,"endTime":1480.96,"body":"– if I'm struggling to get"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1480.96,"endTime":1485.46,"body":"people to listen to me, what"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1480.96,"endTime":1485.46,"body":"about those activists? You know,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1485.55,"endTime":1489.99,"body":"if it's creating challenges for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1485.55,"endTime":1489.99,"body":"activist scholars – what does"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1489.99,"endTime":1493.11,"body":"this mean for the people who've"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1489.99,"endTime":1493.11,"body":"been dehumanised in the way"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1493.11,"endTime":1497.49,"body":"they've described? To your mind,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1493.11,"endTime":1497.49,"body":"what do we need to be aware of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1497.52,"endTime":1500.67,"body":"in thinking about our"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1497.52,"endTime":1500.67,"body":"relationships with those who are"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1500.67,"endTime":1505.59,"body":"the most dehumanised, in our"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1500.67,"endTime":1505.59,"body":"role as activist scholars? I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1505.59,"endTime":1508.32,"body":"think there are some tips about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1505.59,"endTime":1508.32,"body":"that in your book, but also in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1508.32,"endTime":1510.33,"body":"your current scholarly practice?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1510.96,"endTime":1514.35,"body":"It's how to act"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1510.96,"endTime":1514.35,"body":"ethically, isn't it – in a way"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1514.35,"endTime":1520.62,"body":"where we engage ethically,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1514.35,"endTime":1520.62,"body":"reflecting on our own positions"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1520.62,"endTime":1527.04,"body":"with people with less power –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1520.62,"endTime":1527.04,"body":"but also amplify their"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1527.04,"endTime":1531.0,"body":"experiences at the same time."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1527.04,"endTime":1531.0,"body":"It's sort of, it's worse, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1531.0,"endTime":1535.53,"body":"know – being a sociologist, it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1531.0,"endTime":1535.53,"body":"crosses over different spheres,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1535.59,"endTime":1538.26,"body":"you know – where you've got to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1535.59,"endTime":1538.26,"body":"really think about how do you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1538.26,"endTime":1541.53,"body":"work with communities of people"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1538.26,"endTime":1541.53,"body":"who are marginalised and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1541.53,"endTime":1545.97,"body":"stigmatised in ways that is both"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1541.53,"endTime":1545.97,"body":"ethical and not extractive – but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1545.97,"endTime":1553.02,"body":"also amplifies their voices, and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1545.97,"endTime":1553.02,"body":"really allows us to hear what's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1553.05,"endTime":1557.4,"body":"otherwise concealed and hidden."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1553.05,"endTime":1557.4,"body":"It makes me think of Geraldine"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1557.43,"endTime":1561.09,"body":"Onek and Jasmine Patel – who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1557.43,"endTime":1561.09,"body":"we're going to meet later on in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1561.09,"endTime":1564.45,"body":"the series – who I met through a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1561.09,"endTime":1564.45,"body":"different type of work – not"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1564.45,"endTime":1568.53,"body":"anti poverty work, but through"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1564.45,"endTime":1568.53,"body":"anti-racist activism – through"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1568.83,"endTime":1572.34,"body":"Lancaster Black History group."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1568.83,"endTime":1572.34,"body":"And that group emerged as a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1572.34,"endTime":1577.86,"body":"community group in 2020, after"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1572.34,"endTime":1577.86,"body":"the Black Lives Matter movement."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1578.1,"endTime":1581.73,"body":"And one of the really nice"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1578.1,"endTime":1581.73,"body":"things about that episode – and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1581.73,"endTime":1586.35,"body":"when you'll get to hear from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1581.73,"endTime":1586.35,"body":"them – is actually how that is a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1586.35,"endTime":1589.68,"body":"kind of different type of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1586.35,"endTime":1589.68,"body":"anti-stigma work, you know, but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1589.68,"endTime":1593.73,"body":"it's, it's a very important one."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1589.68,"endTime":1593.73,"body":"But it kind of is also very"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1593.73,"endTime":1597.06,"body":"hopeful. So it's, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1593.73,"endTime":1597.06,"body":"quite difficult when you're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1597.24,"endTime":1600.81,"body":"thinking about poverty right"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1597.24,"endTime":1600.81,"body":"now, in the UK – given the scale"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1600.81,"endTime":1605.37,"body":"of the crisis with we face –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1600.81,"endTime":1605.37,"body":"sometimes it feels, fills you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1605.37,"endTime":1609.54,"body":"with despair. But, but that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1605.37,"endTime":1609.54,"body":"project, and that work has kind"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1609.54,"endTime":1613.14,"body":"of made me feel incredibly"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1609.54,"endTime":1613.14,"body":"hopeful about the power of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1613.14,"endTime":1621.06,"body":"education as a kind of force to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1613.14,"endTime":1621.06,"body":"change society – to change the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1621.06,"endTime":1625.32,"body":"way people think and perceive"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1621.06,"endTime":1625.32,"body":"and talk about histories and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1625.32,"endTime":1627.99,"body":"their impact in the present in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1625.32,"endTime":1627.99,"body":"ways that's actually very"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1628.29,"endTime":1632.25,"body":"reparative. I suppose all of my"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1628.29,"endTime":1632.25,"body":"research, I guess, and thought"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1632.25,"endTime":1635.85,"body":"about it till now is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1632.25,"endTime":1635.85,"body":"anti-stigma practice. So it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1635.85,"endTime":1638.67,"body":"not just that I'm thinking about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1635.85,"endTime":1638.67,"body":"stigma. It's also that I'm"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1638.67,"endTime":1643.5,"body":"trying to do anti-stigma, work,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1638.67,"endTime":1643.5,"body":"through my research and through"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1643.5,"endTime":1645.6,"body":"my community activist work."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1652.95,"endTime":1655.26,"body":"I was talking to my friend and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1652.95,"endTime":1655.26,"body":"colleague at Lancaster"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1655.26,"endTime":1658.8,"body":"University, the sociologist"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1655.26,"endTime":1658.8,"body":"Michaela Benson, and you can"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1658.8,"endTime":1663.57,"body":"read more about Michaela in our"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1658.8,"endTime":1663.57,"body":"episode notes. Hopefully, you've"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1663.57,"endTime":1667.08,"body":"got a sense of what I'm getting"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1663.57,"endTime":1667.08,"body":"at with stigma – the need to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1667.08,"endTime":1671.79,"body":"look up and back, to look at"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1667.08,"endTime":1671.79,"body":"feelings and experiences – but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1671.79,"endTime":1676.86,"body":"also how and why stigma is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1671.79,"endTime":1676.86,"body":"produced, how stigma machines"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1676.86,"endTime":1680.91,"body":"are set in motion – to mark some"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1676.86,"endTime":1680.91,"body":"bodies over others, to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1680.91,"endTime":1685.77,"body":"immobilise, humiliate,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1680.91,"endTime":1685.77,"body":"dehumanise. And I talk about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1685.77,"endTime":1689.46,"body":"stigma machines, because I want"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1685.77,"endTime":1689.46,"body":"to trouble the view of stigma as"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1689.46,"endTime":1693.96,"body":"some individual level thing –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1689.46,"endTime":1693.96,"body":"and push for a more structural"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1693.96,"endTime":1697.5,"body":"understanding of stigma – as a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1693.96,"endTime":1697.5,"body":"form of power that divides and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1697.5,"endTime":1702.33,"body":"classifies us. So stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1697.5,"endTime":1702.33,"body":"machines move and morph"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1702.33,"endTime":1706.2,"body":"depending on the systems they're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1702.33,"endTime":1706.2,"body":"designed in, and the desires of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1706.2,"endTime":1710.97,"body":"those who make them. Today we"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1706.2,"endTime":1710.97,"body":"see stigma production whirring"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1710.97,"endTime":1715.5,"body":"away all over the place – from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1710.97,"endTime":1715.5,"body":"the stigma politics exercised by"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1715.5,"endTime":1720.48,"body":"states, politicians, spin"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1715.5,"endTime":1720.48,"body":"doctors, think tanks – to stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1720.48,"endTime":1726.66,"body":"craft in the media – from PR to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1720.48,"endTime":1726.66,"body":"reality TV, news journalism. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1726.66,"endTime":1729.06,"body":"then there's the stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1726.66,"endTime":1729.06,"body":"production ticking along in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1729.06,"endTime":1734.04,"body":"everyday racism, ableism and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1729.06,"endTime":1734.04,"body":"misogyny, both online and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1734.04,"endTime":1734.28,"body":"offline."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1741.44,"endTime":1745.25,"body":"Basically, it's all alive and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1741.44,"endTime":1745.25,"body":"well, which means talking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1745.25,"endTime":1749.78,"body":"properly about stigma matters"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1745.25,"endTime":1749.78,"body":"more now than ever. When my book"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1749.78,"endTime":1753.71,"body":"came out in 2020, things were"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1749.78,"endTime":1753.71,"body":"already pretty bad here in the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1753.71,"endTime":1758.99,"body":"UK. But now after austerity,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1753.71,"endTime":1758.99,"body":"Brexit and COVID-19. And amid"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1758.99,"endTime":1763.25,"body":"deep recession – poverty and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1758.99,"endTime":1763.25,"body":"destitution threaten the lives"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1763.25,"endTime":1767.9,"body":"of millions, the promises of the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1763.25,"endTime":1767.9,"body":"mid 20th century welfare state –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1768.23,"endTime":1771.86,"body":"cradle to grave safety net,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1768.23,"endTime":1771.86,"body":"greater equality of health,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1771.86,"endTime":1775.67,"body":"wealth, opportunity. These seem"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1771.86,"endTime":1775.67,"body":"to have been abandoned and we're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1775.67,"endTime":1779.75,"body":"seeing a stigma boom as the war"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1775.67,"endTime":1779.75,"body":"on woke dehumanises an ever"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1779.75,"endTime":1784.52,"body":"bigger circle of people – trans"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1779.75,"endTime":1784.52,"body":"people, anti-racist activists,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1784.82,"endTime":1788.57,"body":"environmental campaigners – and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1784.82,"endTime":1788.57,"body":"even as we'll see later – those"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1788.57,"endTime":1792.23,"body":"who care for others. We'll also"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1788.57,"endTime":1792.23,"body":"see stigma power at work and the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1792.23,"endTime":1795.92,"body":"resurgence of fascism as my chat"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1792.23,"endTime":1795.92,"body":"with Michaela reminded us."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1796.04,"endTime":1799.43,"body":"Across Europe in state led"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1796.04,"endTime":1799.43,"body":"campaigns against refugees and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1799.43,"endTime":1803.03,"body":"migrants. In fact, I'll be"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1799.43,"endTime":1803.03,"body":"returning to talk about both"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1803.03,"endTime":1806.27,"body":"racism and the criminalization"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1803.03,"endTime":1806.27,"body":"of migrants later in this"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1806.27,"endTime":1809.24,"body":"series. But I'd like to end on a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1806.27,"endTime":1809.24,"body":"note of hope."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1814.85,"endTime":1818.0,"body":"Stigma machines can feel"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1814.85,"endTime":1818.0,"body":"overwhelming – especially once"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1818.0,"endTime":1821.54,"body":"we start to draw connections"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1818.0,"endTime":1821.54,"body":"between things such as migration"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1821.54,"endTime":1827.03,"body":"and histories of racism,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1821.54,"endTime":1827.03,"body":"poverty, welfare and shame. But"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1827.03,"endTime":1830.75,"body":"thinking about this connected"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1827.03,"endTime":1830.75,"body":"history as a stigma power is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1830.75,"endTime":1834.83,"body":"part of a crucial process of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1830.75,"endTime":1834.83,"body":"reparative justice that helps to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1834.83,"endTime":1839.27,"body":"build solidarity movements,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1834.83,"endTime":1839.27,"body":"critical practices – the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1839.27,"endTime":1843.2,"body":"cultural theorist Paul Gilroy"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1839.27,"endTime":1843.2,"body":"talks about – as the ongoing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1843.2,"endTime":1848.87,"body":"collective work of salvage. It's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1843.2,"endTime":1848.87,"body":"hard work – but essential if"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1848.87,"endTime":1851.72,"body":"we're going to risk being"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1848.87,"endTime":1851.72,"body":"divided, and instead work to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1851.72,"endTime":1860.63,"body":"rise in outrage together against"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1851.72,"endTime":1860.63,"body":"the stigma machines. Next, I'm"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1860.63,"endTime":1863.72,"body":"talking to sociologist Alice"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1860.63,"endTime":1863.72,"body":"Bloch about stigma and bodily"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1863.72,"endTime":1868.52,"body":"marking, but also subversion,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1863.72,"endTime":1868.52,"body":"solidarity and resistance. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1868.52,"endTime":1871.19,"body":"speaking of solidarity – please"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1868.52,"endTime":1871.19,"body":"do share the stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1871.19,"endTime":1875.09,"body":"conversations far and wide."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1871.19,"endTime":1875.09,"body":"Click follow in the app you're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1875.09,"endTime":1879.02,"body":"using to hear this to ensure you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1875.09,"endTime":1879.02,"body":"catch every episode. You can"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1879.02,"endTime":1882.44,"body":"also find reading lists for the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1879.02,"endTime":1882.44,"body":"series over at the podcast page"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1882.68,"endTime":1888.2,"body":"of thesociologicalreview.org. My"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1882.68,"endTime":1888.2,"body":"producer was Alice Bloch. Our"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1888.2,"endTime":1891.89,"body":"sound engineer was Dave"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1888.2,"endTime":1891.89,"body":"Crackles. Thanks for listening."}]}