{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":6.09,"endTime":8.31,"body":"Welcome back to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":6.09,"endTime":8.31,"body":"the Stigma Conversations with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":8.31,"endTime":13.08,"body":"me, Imogen Tyler. By now you'll"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":8.31,"endTime":13.08,"body":"know why I want to talk about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":13.08,"endTime":16.98,"body":"stigma, even when there are so"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":13.08,"endTime":16.98,"body":"many conversations going on out"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":16.98,"endTime":19.89,"body":"there that are doing great work"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":16.98,"endTime":19.89,"body":"to break down boundaries and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":19.89,"endTime":26.22,"body":"taboos. Stigma is dehumanising,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":19.89,"endTime":26.22,"body":"divisive, places limits on our"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":26.22,"endTime":30.54,"body":"lives, and talking about how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":26.22,"endTime":30.54,"body":"that makes us feel really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":30.54,"endTime":35.85,"body":"matters. But if we're to change"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":30.54,"endTime":35.85,"body":"things at the structural level,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":36.18,"endTime":40.86,"body":"we need to also really talk"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":36.18,"endTime":40.86,"body":"about the big picture – to ask"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":40.86,"endTime":45.75,"body":"how stigmas produced and why, if"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":40.86,"endTime":45.75,"body":"we can do that – daring to look"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":45.75,"endTime":50.19,"body":"up and back at power, at history"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":45.75,"endTime":50.19,"body":"– we can see how stigma is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":50.19,"endTime":54.75,"body":"entangled in bigger systems"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":50.19,"endTime":54.75,"body":"politics, economics, capitalism,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":54.78,"endTime":59.7,"body":"colonialism, patriarchy. When we"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":54.78,"endTime":59.7,"body":"do that, we get a new way of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":59.7,"endTime":64.53,"body":"seeing basically, we begin to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":59.7,"endTime":64.53,"body":"recognise stigma as a power of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":64.53,"endTime":68.46,"body":"practice and machine – something"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":64.53,"endTime":68.46,"body":"orchestrated to serve the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":68.46,"endTime":72.78,"body":"powerful – and then we can stop"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":68.46,"endTime":72.78,"body":"blaming ourselves or thinking"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":73.26,"endTime":78.24,"body":"\"that's just how things are\" and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":73.26,"endTime":78.24,"body":"we can ask for better. In this"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":78.24,"endTime":81.21,"body":"series, I've been meeting"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":78.24,"endTime":81.21,"body":"academics, activists and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":81.21,"endTime":86.01,"body":"frontline workers, to help me do"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":81.21,"endTime":86.01,"body":"just that, to reflect – not only"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":86.01,"endTime":89.91,"body":"on how stigma works and where it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":86.01,"endTime":89.91,"body":"comes from – but how we might,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":89.94,"endTime":92.4,"body":"in fact, must move forward."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":96.53,"endTime":99.83,"body":"Last time, we heard Geraldine"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":96.53,"endTime":99.83,"body":"and Jasmine from Lancaster Black"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":99.83,"endTime":103.76,"body":"History group, talking about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":99.83,"endTime":103.76,"body":"working to fight racism through"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":103.76,"endTime":108.26,"body":"education. Something that stayed"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":103.76,"endTime":108.26,"body":"with me was Geraldine's line on"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":108.26,"endTime":112.31,"body":"how to take on racism – we have"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":108.26,"endTime":112.31,"body":"to engage people in the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":112.31,"endTime":117.35,"body":"conversation, to collaborate to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":112.31,"endTime":117.35,"body":"improve racial literacy, and get"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":117.35,"endTime":121.31,"body":"rid of the shame of ignorance."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":117.35,"endTime":121.31,"body":"Only then can we challenge"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":121.34,"endTime":129.35,"body":"racism and white privilege. To"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":121.34,"endTime":129.35,"body":"today, I want to continue"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":129.35,"endTime":133.1,"body":"thinking about social change,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":129.35,"endTime":133.1,"body":"and how that takes really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":133.1,"endTime":136.46,"body":"considered engagement with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":133.1,"endTime":136.46,"body":"communities."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":138.43,"endTime":141.46,"body":"I first met the GP Andy Knox"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":138.43,"endTime":141.46,"body":"through our work on the same"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":141.46,"endTime":145.66,"body":"local Poverty Truth Commission,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":141.46,"endTime":145.66,"body":"where I met Helen Greatorex, who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":145.66,"endTime":149.56,"body":"you heard from earlier in this"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":145.66,"endTime":149.56,"body":"series. As well as being a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":149.56,"endTime":153.43,"body":"doctor here in Lancashire and a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":149.56,"endTime":153.43,"body":"dad, Andy's an Associate Medical"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":153.43,"endTime":156.79,"body":"Director for Lancashire and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":153.43,"endTime":156.79,"body":"South Cumbria. He's also an"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":156.79,"endTime":160.12,"body":"associate at the King's Fund,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":156.79,"endTime":160.12,"body":"where he focuses on population"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":160.12,"endTime":164.32,"body":"health and health inequalities."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":160.12,"endTime":164.32,"body":"We spoke back in November about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":164.32,"endTime":169.57,"body":"the crisis in the NHS, and how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":164.32,"endTime":169.57,"body":"stigma makes us sick, but also"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":169.57,"endTime":173.71,"body":"about hope and change. Andy"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":169.57,"endTime":173.71,"body":"described the knock on effects"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":173.71,"endTime":177.31,"body":"of things like austerity and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":173.71,"endTime":177.31,"body":"cuts on society's most"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":177.31,"endTime":178.39,"body":"vulnerable people."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":180.25,"endTime":183.942,"body":"We have a term that I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":180.25,"endTime":183.942,"body":"really don't like – but I hear a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":184.01,"endTime":188.387,"body":"lot of my colleagues talk about"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":184.01,"endTime":188.387,"body":"– which is \"shit life syndrome\"."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":188.455,"endTime":192.9,"body":"And the reality is that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":188.455,"endTime":192.9,"body":"people come to us simply to say,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":192.968,"endTime":197.276,"body":"my life's terrible, and I don't"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":192.968,"endTime":197.276,"body":"know what to do about it. And a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":197.345,"endTime":201.448,"body":"lot of the physical and mental"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":197.345,"endTime":201.448,"body":"health stresses that they are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":201.516,"endTime":205.482,"body":"experiencing, are actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":201.516,"endTime":205.482,"body":"directly related to, to poverty"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":205.55,"endTime":209.79,"body":"– and to a lack of ability to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":205.55,"endTime":209.79,"body":"participate in life, and to have"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":209.858,"endTime":213.551,"body":"positive choices available for"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":209.858,"endTime":213.551,"body":"them. And it's a really"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":213.619,"endTime":217.996,"body":"harrowing experience, actually,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":213.619,"endTime":217.996,"body":"as a clinician, or as a GP – who"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":218.064,"endTime":222.304,"body":"really loves and wants to serve"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":218.064,"endTime":222.304,"body":"your community – to feel quite"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":222.372,"endTime":226.338,"body":"helpless to feel like you're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":222.372,"endTime":226.338,"body":"sitting and you're listening,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":226.407,"endTime":230.236,"body":"and you're, you're holding"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":226.407,"endTime":230.236,"body":"someone's pain with them. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":230.304,"endTime":234.544,"body":"most of your training, you're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":230.304,"endTime":234.544,"body":"taught to try and fix people, or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":234.612,"endTime":238.784,"body":"to try and offer some solution"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":234.612,"endTime":238.784,"body":"or to offer some hope, or some"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":238.852,"endTime":243.092,"body":"other bits and pieces. And the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":238.852,"endTime":243.092,"body":"problem is that we've developed"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":243.16,"endTime":247.263,"body":"some kind of narrative around"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":243.16,"endTime":247.263,"body":"poverty that there's deserving"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":247.331,"endTime":251.434,"body":"poor and there's undeserving"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":247.331,"endTime":251.434,"body":"poor. And actually, most people"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":251.502,"endTime":254.922,"body":"are kind of poor, because"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":251.502,"endTime":254.922,"body":"they're lazy, or they're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":254.99,"endTime":259.298,"body":"feckless, or they're wasters or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":254.99,"endTime":259.298,"body":"they're, they've done something"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":259.366,"endTime":263.811,"body":"wrong somehow. And yet, you hear"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":259.366,"endTime":263.811,"body":"story after story after story of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":263.879,"endTime":267.572,"body":"people who have experienced"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":263.879,"endTime":267.572,"body":"major social injustice and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":267.64,"endTime":271.675,"body":"actually don't have this sense"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":267.64,"endTime":271.675,"body":"of great choice available to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":271.743,"endTime":276.051,"body":"them. And they're coming to you"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":271.743,"endTime":276.051,"body":"saying – What can I do? And you"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":276.12,"endTime":280.154,"body":"increasingly in response are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":276.12,"endTime":280.154,"body":"saying – I actually don't know"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":280.222,"endTime":284.325,"body":"apart from just hold your pain"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":280.222,"endTime":284.325,"body":"with you and commiserate with"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":284.394,"endTime":288.497,"body":"you that actually life is really"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":284.394,"endTime":288.497,"body":"tough. And we are seeing an"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":288.565,"endTime":292.394,"body":"exponential rise in the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":288.565,"endTime":292.394,"body":"prescription of antidepressants,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":292.463,"endTime":296.497,"body":"of anti-anxiety drugs have been"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":292.463,"endTime":296.497,"body":"referrals through to mental"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":296.566,"endTime":300.463,"body":"health services – which are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":296.566,"endTime":300.463,"body":"overwhelmed with the referral"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":300.532,"endTime":304.498,"body":"processes and cannot keep up"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":300.532,"endTime":304.498,"body":"with the demand that has been"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":304.566,"endTime":308.874,"body":"thrown at them through primary"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":304.566,"endTime":308.874,"body":"care. And what's left in primary"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":308.942,"endTime":312.635,"body":"care is clinicians holding"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":308.942,"endTime":312.635,"body":"incredible amounts of risk."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":312.703,"endTime":316.943,"body":"Because the services that could"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":312.703,"endTime":316.943,"body":"be there to support people are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":317.011,"endTime":321.114,"body":"no longer there. And that's a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":317.011,"endTime":321.114,"body":"really distressing experience,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":321.183,"endTime":325.286,"body":"actually, as a clinician who's"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":321.183,"endTime":325.286,"body":"genuinely sat there trying to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":325.354,"endTime":329.457,"body":"help work with your patient for"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":325.354,"endTime":329.457,"body":"solutions around things that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":329.525,"endTime":331.03,"body":"really matter to them."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":331.93,"endTime":335.59,"body":"I'm actually, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":331.93,"endTime":335.59,"body":"know, I feel quite upset,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":335.62,"endTime":342.52,"body":"listening to you speak – I mean,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":335.62,"endTime":342.52,"body":"upset and actually angry. And I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":342.52,"endTime":345.37,"body":"think – as you know – one of the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":342.52,"endTime":345.37,"body":"things I've written about is how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":345.37,"endTime":349.42,"body":"that kind of top down stigma,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":345.37,"endTime":349.42,"body":"that kind of culture of blame,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":350.26,"endTime":354.19,"body":"you know, was such a big part of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":350.26,"endTime":354.19,"body":"the austerity project and the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":354.19,"endTime":358.96,"body":"broader sort of social and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":354.19,"endTime":358.96,"body":"cultural sense. And the sort of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":358.99,"endTime":363.31,"body":"disconnect between the social"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":358.99,"endTime":363.31,"body":"suffering that you're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":363.31,"endTime":366.52,"body":"describing, and that people"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":363.31,"endTime":366.52,"body":"working on the frontline – like"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":366.52,"endTime":371.05,"body":"you – are having to face and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":366.52,"endTime":371.05,"body":"deal with – and that kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":371.11,"endTime":379.72,"body":"just totally vicious, divisive"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":371.11,"endTime":379.72,"body":"politics of blaming people in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":379.72,"endTime":385.78,"body":"poverty for their poverty – I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":379.72,"endTime":385.78,"body":"just find that deeply upsetting"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":385.78,"endTime":391.78,"body":"and angering. It just feels"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":385.78,"endTime":391.78,"body":"like, you know, the point where"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":391.78,"endTime":394.39,"body":"you think it can't get any"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":391.78,"endTime":394.39,"body":"worse, it get, it gets worse,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":394.39,"endTime":398.44,"body":"and it is getting worse in this"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":394.39,"endTime":398.44,"body":"sort of winter period that we're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":398.44,"endTime":402.61,"body":"in. And I just don't – I suppose"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":398.44,"endTime":402.61,"body":"it's not really a question, I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":402.61,"endTime":410.38,"body":"just don't know how people in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":402.61,"endTime":410.38,"body":"your roles are able to cope with"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":410.38,"endTime":414.52,"body":"the stress of everybody else's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":410.38,"endTime":414.52,"body":"stress. So I just want to sort"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":414.52,"endTime":417.19,"body":"of acknowledge that, really,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":417.87,"endTime":420.36,"body":"Thank you. And we do"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":417.87,"endTime":420.36,"body":"see really high levels of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":420.36,"endTime":424.05,"body":"burnout and stress, we know"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":420.36,"endTime":424.05,"body":"that, you know, we've had some"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":424.05,"endTime":427.95,"body":"very, very sad cases recently of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":424.05,"endTime":427.95,"body":"GPS committing suicide,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":428.34,"endTime":432.93,"body":"nationally. And for women, the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":428.34,"endTime":432.93,"body":"highest suicide rate"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":432.93,"endTime":437.43,"body":"professionally, is to be a GP."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":432.93,"endTime":437.43,"body":"That's a really staggering"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":437.43,"endTime":440.94,"body":"statistic, isn't it, but"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":437.43,"endTime":440.94,"body":"actually, the strain – and then"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":440.94,"endTime":444.78,"body":"the blame also of GPS on– you're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":440.94,"endTime":444.78,"body":"not working hard enough, you're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":444.78,"endTime":447.12,"body":"not looking after all of these"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":444.78,"endTime":447.12,"body":"people, you're not making"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":447.12,"endTime":449.85,"body":"yourselves available enough,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":447.12,"endTime":449.85,"body":"you're waiting times are too"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":449.85,"endTime":453.3,"body":"long. But when everything else"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":449.85,"endTime":453.3,"body":"has been cut around you – all"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":453.3,"endTime":455.19,"body":"the stuff that used to help"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":453.3,"endTime":455.19,"body":"people and people are pouring"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":455.19,"endTime":458.64,"body":"through your doors, like a tidal"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":455.19,"endTime":458.64,"body":"wave begging for help – and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":458.64,"endTime":461.91,"body":"you're working every hour you"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":458.64,"endTime":461.91,"body":"possibly can to provide this"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":461.91,"endTime":465.66,"body":"kind of care. And then being"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":461.91,"endTime":465.66,"body":"told through many parts of the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":465.66,"endTime":468.0,"body":"media – this isn't good enough,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":465.66,"endTime":468.0,"body":"you're not you're not caring"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":468.0,"endTime":471.03,"body":"enough, you're not doing enough"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":468.0,"endTime":471.03,"body":"– you can understand why people"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":471.03,"endTime":474.39,"body":"are burning out, leaving,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":471.03,"endTime":474.39,"body":"retiring early, saying, I'm done"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":474.39,"endTime":477.03,"body":"with this, you know, I've poured"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":474.39,"endTime":477.03,"body":"my life out for the sake of this"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":477.03,"endTime":480.12,"body":"community. And now you're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":477.03,"endTime":480.12,"body":"telling me everything I'm doing"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":480.15,"endTime":483.12,"body":"isn't good enough, when"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":480.15,"endTime":483.12,"body":"everything else that used to be"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":483.12,"endTime":485.22,"body":"here to support this community"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":483.12,"endTime":485.22,"body":"isn't there anymore?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":485.93,"endTime":489.38,"body":"Yeah. And I've"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":485.93,"endTime":489.38,"body":"been thinking recently, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":489.38,"endTime":493.43,"body":"know, since I wrote the stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":489.38,"endTime":493.43,"body":"book and the machine – and I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":493.43,"endTime":496.61,"body":"have, you know, a lot of focus"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":493.43,"endTime":496.61,"body":"on things like the welfare and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":496.61,"endTime":499.73,"body":"benefits stigma. But I think"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":496.61,"endTime":499.73,"body":"there's been a sort of ex...  a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":499.73,"endTime":504.05,"body":"sort of huge increase in sort"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":499.73,"endTime":504.05,"body":"of, the same sort of stigma"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":504.08,"endTime":507.89,"body":"politics – I think the whole"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":504.08,"endTime":507.89,"body":"woke narratives are kind...  is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":507.89,"endTime":513.17,"body":"basically a stigma politics –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":507.89,"endTime":513.17,"body":"and it starts to scoop up other"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":514.46,"endTime":519.23,"body":"people and groups including"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":514.46,"endTime":519.23,"body":"people who work in the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":519.23,"endTime":522.83,"body":"frontlines of services – who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":519.23,"endTime":522.83,"body":"start being stigmatised by the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":523.01,"endTime":526.73,"body":"these sort of narratives. It's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":523.01,"endTime":526.73,"body":"sort of like an explosion of the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":526.73,"endTime":531.02,"body":"sort of machine. I mean, one"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":526.73,"endTime":531.02,"body":"thing that would be interesting,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":531.02,"endTime":535.31,"body":"just to mention, I think – is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":531.02,"endTime":535.31,"body":"the work, that well we did some"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":535.31,"endTime":538.22,"body":"work together when we worked on"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":535.31,"endTime":538.22,"body":"the local Poverty Truth"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":538.22,"endTime":543.41,"body":"Commission – but also something"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":538.22,"endTime":543.41,"body":"more hopeful, I guess, than what"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":543.41,"endTime":547.55,"body":"we've talked about so far –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":543.41,"endTime":547.55,"body":"which is how the work we did,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":548.0,"endTime":550.64,"body":"which was separate pieces of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":548.0,"endTime":550.64,"body":"work – but the work we did"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":550.64,"endTime":556.07,"body":"around our local gypsy traveller"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":550.64,"endTime":556.07,"body":"community – actually did lead to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":556.07,"endTime":560.6,"body":"sort of change. Do you want to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":556.07,"endTime":560.6,"body":"tell us a little bit about that?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":560.6,"endTime":564.77,"body":"Because I think, actually one of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":560.6,"endTime":564.77,"body":"the travellers that you know,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":564.77,"endTime":568.49,"body":"that we worked with, rang me up"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":564.77,"endTime":568.49,"body":"the other day, and I had – it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":568.49,"endTime":572.36,"body":"was such a light smashing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":568.49,"endTime":572.36,"body":"conversation that I had. And she"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":572.36,"endTime":578.51,"body":"kind of reminded me about what a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":572.36,"endTime":578.51,"body":"huge impact being part of that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":578.54,"endTime":581.75,"body":"process of sort of grassroots"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":578.54,"endTime":581.75,"body":"activism on the ground that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":581.75,"endTime":585.14,"body":"we're involved in, had on her"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":581.75,"endTime":585.14,"body":"life and the life of her"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":585.14,"endTime":589.28,"body":"community. So that that I found"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":585.14,"endTime":589.28,"body":"that very helpful moment. So I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":589.28,"endTime":592.19,"body":"wanted and I know you've done"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":589.28,"endTime":592.19,"body":"this incredible piece of work"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":592.34,"endTime":596.42,"body":"around health and that community"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":592.34,"endTime":596.42,"body":"– which is just such a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":596.42,"endTime":599.27,"body":"stigmatised community – it'd be"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":596.42,"endTime":599.27,"body":"good to hear you talk about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":599.27,"endTime":599.57,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":600.14,"endTime":602.3,"body":"Yeah, I think the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":600.14,"endTime":602.3,"body":"Gypsy Roma Traveller community"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":602.3,"endTime":605.24,"body":"are one of the most stigmatised"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":602.3,"endTime":605.24,"body":"communities in the country by,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":605.27,"endTime":611.66,"body":"by a long way. As a tiny bit of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":605.27,"endTime":611.66,"body":"background into this – I think I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":611.66,"endTime":615.98,"body":"really like what Rebecca says"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":611.66,"endTime":615.98,"body":"about hope – which is that hope"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":615.98,"endTime":619.31,"body":"is an axe. Hope isn't some way"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":615.98,"endTime":619.31,"body":"you just sit away and kind of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":619.31,"endTime":622.61,"body":"cross your fingers and, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":619.31,"endTime":622.61,"body":"dream of a better life Hope is"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":622.61,"endTime":625.64,"body":"what you do in an emergency"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":622.61,"endTime":625.64,"body":"situation, where you take an axe"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":625.64,"endTime":629.69,"body":"to the door, and you get out of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":625.64,"endTime":629.69,"body":"the fire, and you begin to you"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":629.69,"endTime":633.86,"body":"know, break free into something"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":629.69,"endTime":633.86,"body":"new. And I think there is real"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":633.86,"endTime":638.12,"body":"hope for people working in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":633.86,"endTime":638.12,"body":"Primary Care, for people working"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":638.12,"endTime":641.93,"body":"in different frontline services"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":638.12,"endTime":641.93,"body":"right now. But it isn't from"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":641.93,"endTime":646.07,"body":"staying in where we are and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":641.93,"endTime":646.07,"body":"continuing to work in the same"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":646.07,"endTime":649.61,"body":"ways and always just feeling"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":646.07,"endTime":649.61,"body":"this sense of overwhelm. There"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":649.61,"endTime":653.84,"body":"is something about having the,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":649.61,"endTime":653.84,"body":"both the humility and the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":653.87,"endTime":657.92,"body":"audacity and the hope to step"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":653.87,"endTime":657.92,"body":"outside of the four walls of how"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":657.92,"endTime":662.15,"body":"we normally work – and choose to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":657.92,"endTime":662.15,"body":"go and be with our communities"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":662.15,"endTime":665.84,"body":"differently, to listen to them"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":662.15,"endTime":665.84,"body":"at a much deeper level. And to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":665.84,"endTime":668.93,"body":"find out actually, that some of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":665.84,"endTime":668.93,"body":"the services we think we're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":668.93,"endTime":672.26,"body":"providing for good are not"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":668.93,"endTime":672.26,"body":"really what our community need –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":672.38,"endTime":674.24,"body":"and we're all feeling"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":672.38,"endTime":674.24,"body":"overwhelmed. They're feeling"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":674.24,"endTime":678.47,"body":"disappointed. We're feeling"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":674.24,"endTime":678.47,"body":"burnt out. But actually if we"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":678.47,"endTime":681.29,"body":"learn to listen at a totally"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":678.47,"endTime":681.29,"body":"different level, we find co–"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":681.32,"endTime":684.92,"body":"compassion. And we begin to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":681.32,"endTime":684.92,"body":"think and work together"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":684.92,"endTime":689.72,"body":"differently. So very briefly –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":684.92,"endTime":689.72,"body":"on Gypsy Roma travellers – one"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":689.72,"endTime":693.23,"body":"of the things that we discovered"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":689.72,"endTime":693.23,"body":"was that women in Lancaster were"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":693.23,"endTime":696.68,"body":"dying 20 years earlier from"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":693.23,"endTime":696.68,"body":"breast and cervical cancer than"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":696.71,"endTime":701.99,"body":"any other women in the city. So"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":696.71,"endTime":701.99,"body":"we began to – through the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":701.99,"endTime":705.95,"body":"Poverty Truth Commission – sit"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":701.99,"endTime":705.95,"body":"with Gypsy Roma traveller"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":705.95,"endTime":713.06,"body":"communities, on their turf, at"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":705.95,"endTime":713.06,"body":"their invitation. And we began"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":713.06,"endTime":715.7,"body":"to hear the truth of what it"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":713.06,"endTime":715.7,"body":"feels like to be a Gypsy Roma"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":715.7,"endTime":720.59,"body":"traveller in our area. And we"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":715.7,"endTime":720.59,"body":"learned some staggering things."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":720.8,"endTime":723.59,"body":"First of all, we learned that we"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":720.8,"endTime":723.59,"body":"thought there were only 1000"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":723.59,"endTime":726.29,"body":"gypsy Roma travellers in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":723.59,"endTime":726.29,"body":"Lancaster and Morecambe. The"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":726.29,"endTime":729.44,"body":"Gypsy Roma traveller community"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":726.29,"endTime":729.44,"body":"tell us there's more than 10,000"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":729.8,"endTime":733.7,"body":"– 9000 of them never even get to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":729.8,"endTime":733.7,"body":"admit to being Gypsy Roma"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":733.7,"endTime":736.7,"body":"travellers because of the kind"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":733.7,"endTime":736.7,"body":"of stigmatisation and racism"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":736.7,"endTime":740.39,"body":"they experienced – even at the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":736.7,"endTime":740.39,"body":"front doors of our GP surgeries."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":740.42,"endTime":744.38,"body":"The eye rolling the tut's, the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":740.42,"endTime":744.38,"body":"little giggles to the person"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":744.38,"endTime":748.52,"body":"next to them. The second thing"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":744.38,"endTime":748.52,"body":"we learned was that because of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":748.61,"endTime":751.7,"body":"really high illiteracy rates,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":748.61,"endTime":751.7,"body":"actually amongst Gypsy Roma"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":751.7,"endTime":754.04,"body":"traveller women – our"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":751.7,"endTime":754.04,"body":"traditional ways of trying to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":754.04,"endTime":756.44,"body":"reach out to them – sending"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":754.04,"endTime":756.44,"body":"leaflets to invite them to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":756.44,"endTime":758.99,"body":"breast and cervical screening"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":756.44,"endTime":758.99,"body":"services were completely"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":758.99,"endTime":761.57,"body":"culturally inappropriate. In"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":758.99,"endTime":761.57,"body":"fact, they were potentially"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":761.57,"endTime":765.29,"body":"racist. And so we had to learn"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":761.57,"endTime":765.29,"body":"that we're if we're gonna, if"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":765.29,"endTime":767.42,"body":"we're serious about working in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":765.29,"endTime":767.42,"body":"this community, we better find"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":767.42,"endTime":770.12,"body":"different and better ways of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":767.42,"endTime":770.12,"body":"working with them. The third"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":770.12,"endTime":773.6,"body":"thing we found out was that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":770.12,"endTime":773.6,"body":"culturally, Gypsy Roma traveller"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":773.6,"endTime":777.26,"body":"women won't talk about breast or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":773.6,"endTime":777.26,"body":"gynae issues in front of their"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":777.26,"endTime":780.08,"body":"male partners or in front of a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":777.26,"endTime":780.08,"body":"male clinician. So we're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":780.08,"endTime":784.22,"body":"providing clinics with male"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":780.08,"endTime":784.22,"body":"doctors in, or male nurses – or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":784.28,"endTime":785.93,"body":"they've got their partner with"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":784.28,"endTime":785.93,"body":"them – they're not going to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":785.93,"endTime":787.82,"body":"admit to the fact they've got a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":785.93,"endTime":787.82,"body":"breast lump or a funny"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":787.82,"endTime":791.78,"body":"discharge. And so then they're"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":787.82,"endTime":791.78,"body":"getting really significant"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":791.87,"endTime":794.33,"body":"cancers – which are presenting"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":791.87,"endTime":794.33,"body":"much later with far worse"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":794.33,"endTime":797.69,"body":"outcomes. So once we began to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":794.33,"endTime":797.69,"body":"understood this, and we could"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":797.69,"endTime":801.14,"body":"share the information with them,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":797.69,"endTime":801.14,"body":"it began to radically transform"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":801.14,"endTime":804.38,"body":"the way that we work together."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":801.14,"endTime":804.38,"body":"So now we've got these amazing"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":804.41,"endTime":807.29,"body":"champions within the community"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":804.41,"endTime":807.29,"body":"who are working with us to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":807.29,"endTime":810.59,"body":"spread the message about why"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":807.29,"endTime":810.59,"body":"screening is so important – but"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":810.59,"endTime":813.14,"body":"together with them, we've"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":810.59,"endTime":813.14,"body":"completely redesigned the way we"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":813.14,"endTime":815.6,"body":"deliver clinics, where we do"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":813.14,"endTime":815.6,"body":"deliver them, how we deliver"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":815.6,"endTime":819.08,"body":"them. And I think that over the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":815.6,"endTime":819.08,"body":"next five years, we'll be able"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":819.08,"endTime":822.23,"body":"to close that health inequality"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":819.08,"endTime":822.23,"body":"gap – which has been meted out"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":822.23,"endTime":826.25,"body":"to them – through inappropriate"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":822.23,"endTime":826.25,"body":"practice, and through a lack of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":826.25,"endTime":829.4,"body":"engagement or through a lack of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":826.25,"endTime":829.4,"body":"care. I think it's not because"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":829.4,"endTime":832.16,"body":"people didn't care. It's just"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":829.4,"endTime":832.16,"body":"that we didn't know how to care"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":832.16,"endTime":834.44,"body":"because there was such"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":832.16,"endTime":834.44,"body":"stigmatisation and barriers that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":834.44,"endTime":837.62,"body":"had been created. And by"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":834.44,"endTime":837.62,"body":"breaking those down and choosing"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":837.62,"endTime":840.56,"body":"to listen differently – with a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":837.62,"endTime":840.56,"body":"sense of humility – we've built"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":840.56,"endTime":842.75,"body":"a different kind of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":840.56,"endTime":842.75,"body":"relationship, which is full of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":842.75,"endTime":843.38,"body":"hope."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":844.13,"endTime":847.91,"body":"Yeah, I mean, it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":844.13,"endTime":847.91,"body":"just such a profound example."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":847.97,"endTime":852.35,"body":"And I'm reflecting as you talk,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":847.97,"endTime":852.35,"body":"on what I learned from you – and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":852.35,"endTime":856.01,"body":"others as part of the Poverty"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":852.35,"endTime":856.01,"body":"Truth movement – about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":856.91,"endTime":861.14,"body":"reflecting on your own"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":856.91,"endTime":861.14,"body":"positionality. I mean, we call"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":861.14,"endTime":865.01,"body":"it in the Poverty Truth,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":861.14,"endTime":865.01,"body":"something like – you see, I see,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":865.01,"endTime":868.37,"body":"we see – and the and the goal,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":865.01,"endTime":868.37,"body":"and it's always temporary, and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":868.37,"endTime":871.7,"body":"there's always power. But the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":868.37,"endTime":871.7,"body":"goal is that – the you and the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":871.7,"endTime":876.08,"body":"I, the them and the  us can"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":871.7,"endTime":876.08,"body":"somehow see something as a \"we\"."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":876.32,"endTime":880.61,"body":"But it involves this process of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":876.32,"endTime":880.61,"body":"having to do some quite serious"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":880.61,"endTime":885.65,"body":"and continual reflection on your"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":880.61,"endTime":885.65,"body":"own positionality or that's what"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":885.65,"endTime":889.19,"body":"we call in sociology, let's call"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":885.65,"endTime":889.19,"body":"it. But you use the term"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":889.22,"endTime":893.24,"body":"\"humility\" a lot when you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":889.22,"endTime":893.24,"body":"describe that self reflection."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":893.63,"endTime":896.72,"body":"And I wondered if you want to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":893.63,"endTime":896.72,"body":"say something about how that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":896.72,"endTime":900.29,"body":"works for you. How you come from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":896.72,"endTime":900.29,"body":"your background – which is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":900.29,"endTime":906.2,"body":"pretty privileged – and then how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":900.29,"endTime":906.2,"body":"do you work continuously to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":906.2,"endTime":909.59,"body":"challenge your own positionality"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":906.2,"endTime":909.59,"body":"in a way that allows you to do"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":909.59,"endTime":914.12,"body":"that, to break down those \"them"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":909.59,"endTime":914.12,"body":"and us\" in your in your"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":914.12,"endTime":914.99,"body":"practices."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":915.41,"endTime":920.72,"body":"So I think that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":915.41,"endTime":920.72,"body":"humility is the starting place"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":920.96,"endTime":925.07,"body":"for any relationship – that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":920.96,"endTime":925.07,"body":"sense of being willing to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":925.07,"endTime":928.43,"body":"unknow. And therefore actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":925.07,"endTime":928.43,"body":"have a fascination and a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":928.43,"endTime":932.75,"body":"compassion in the other person –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":928.43,"endTime":932.75,"body":"that you don't get to assume or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":932.75,"endTime":935.36,"body":"to know about the other person's"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":932.75,"endTime":935.36,"body":"experience because you don't"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":935.36,"endTime":938.21,"body":"walk in their shoes, you don't"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":935.36,"endTime":938.21,"body":"know their life or their story."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":938.21,"endTime":941.45,"body":"And so actually having a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":938.21,"endTime":941.45,"body":"fascination in people and being"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":941.45,"endTime":944.09,"body":"willing to put aside your"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":941.45,"endTime":944.09,"body":"assumptions is a really, really"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":944.09,"endTime":948.5,"body":"important starting place. But I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":944.09,"endTime":948.5,"body":"think for me – I don't think I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":948.86,"endTime":955.07,"body":"would be this way if it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":948.86,"endTime":955.07,"body":"for a really lovely Kenyan man"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":955.1,"endTime":958.97,"body":"who I went and spent time with"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":955.1,"endTime":958.97,"body":"my gap year. Truth is that I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":958.97,"endTime":961.67,"body":"come from a really privileged"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":958.97,"endTime":961.67,"body":"background, went to a very nice"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":961.67,"endTime":967.19,"body":"private school, from a very"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":961.67,"endTime":967.19,"body":"upper middle class family. And I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":967.4,"endTime":971.27,"body":"went and took my gap year in a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":967.4,"endTime":971.27,"body":"place called Bungoma, in Kenya."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":971.36,"endTime":975.98,"body":"And I came with an enormous"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":971.36,"endTime":975.98,"body":"amount of white privilege,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":976.22,"endTime":979.49,"body":"colonial attitude – which I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":976.22,"endTime":979.49,"body":"didn't even know was in there."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":979.7,"endTime":983.15,"body":"Just ways of seeing the world"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":979.7,"endTime":983.15,"body":"that were phenomenally arrogant"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":983.18,"endTime":990.08,"body":"and, and naive. And I remember"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":983.18,"endTime":990.08,"body":"this lovely man – who was the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":990.08,"endTime":993.02,"body":"Bishop of Bungoma, he actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":990.08,"endTime":993.02,"body":"became the Archbishop of Kenya"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":993.17,"endTime":996.47,"body":"eventually, Eliud Wabukala, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":993.17,"endTime":996.47,"body":"one day, he just put his arm"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":996.47,"endTime":1000.13,"body":"around my shoulder, he said,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":996.47,"endTime":1000.13,"body":"Andrew, let me take you on a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1000.13,"endTime":1007.42,"body":"walk, and let me just share with"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1000.13,"endTime":1007.42,"body":"you life here in Kenya. He knew"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1007.42,"endTime":1011.14,"body":"exactly what he was doing. But"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1007.42,"endTime":1011.14,"body":"like a father figure to me – he"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1011.14,"endTime":1014.59,"body":"was deliberately opening my eyes"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1011.14,"endTime":1014.59,"body":"and provoking me to see the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1014.59,"endTime":1018.16,"body":"world differently – and helped"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1014.59,"endTime":1018.16,"body":"me to understand the effects of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1018.4,"endTime":1022.18,"body":"colonialism, Britishness – all"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1018.4,"endTime":1022.18,"body":"this kind of stuff in a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1022.18,"endTime":1025.51,"body":"completely new light – with such"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1022.18,"endTime":1025.51,"body":"humility with such grace, and it"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1025.51,"endTime":1029.41,"body":"changed me it genuinely changed"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1025.51,"endTime":1029.41,"body":"me. And I came back with massive"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1029.41,"endTime":1033.16,"body":"culture shock, but determined"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1029.41,"endTime":1033.16,"body":"that I needed to learn to see"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1033.16,"endTime":1035.92,"body":"differently and to be"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1033.16,"endTime":1035.92,"body":"differently in the world. And I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1035.92,"endTime":1039.58,"body":"think that we all need those"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1035.92,"endTime":1039.58,"body":"wake up moments. I will wear the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1039.58,"endTime":1044.53,"body":"badge \"woke\" with pride. I want"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1039.58,"endTime":1044.53,"body":"to be woke. My goodness me, why"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1044.53,"endTime":1047.41,"body":"the hell would you want to not"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1044.53,"endTime":1047.41,"body":"be woke? Why wouldn't you want"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1047.41,"endTime":1050.65,"body":"to be awake to the issues of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1047.41,"endTime":1050.65,"body":"injustice in the world? Why"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1050.65,"endTime":1053.89,"body":"would you not want to have your"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1050.65,"endTime":1053.89,"body":"heart and your mind changed to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1053.89,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"the realities of stigmatisation"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1053.89,"endTime":1057.4,"body":"and its effects in society?"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1057.46,"endTime":1060.46,"body":"It's disgraceful that we should"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1057.46,"endTime":1060.46,"body":"mock it.  It isn't anything to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1060.46,"endTime":1064.06,"body":"be mocked – if we're not afraid"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1060.46,"endTime":1064.06,"body":"to be woken up from our sleep,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1064.18,"endTime":1067.21,"body":"about the level of injustice in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1064.18,"endTime":1067.21,"body":"society – we should be ashamed"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1067.21,"endTime":1069.16,"body":"of ourselves. It's not something"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1067.21,"endTime":1069.16,"body":"to be mocked, it's something to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1069.16,"endTime":1071.98,"body":"be celebrated. And I will wear"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1069.16,"endTime":1071.98,"body":"that badge and I will wear it"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1071.98,"endTime":1072.79,"body":"with pride."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1073.18,"endTime":1076.51,"body":"I'll join you in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1073.18,"endTime":1076.51,"body":"what in wearing that badge. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1076.87,"endTime":1080.59,"body":"I think what you're describing"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1076.87,"endTime":1080.59,"body":"around thinking about your own"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1080.59,"endTime":1085.57,"body":"positionality – about being"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1080.59,"endTime":1085.57,"body":"awake, being alert – and I write"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1085.57,"endTime":1089.02,"body":"about this a bit in the book –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1085.57,"endTime":1089.02,"body":"using the poet Dionne Brand – to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1089.02,"endTime":1091.87,"body":"talk about a shimmering"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1089.02,"endTime":1091.87,"body":"alertness. And that really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1091.87,"endTime":1094.48,"body":"reminds me of this – what you're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1091.87,"endTime":1094.48,"body":"saying in this conversation –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1094.48,"endTime":1099.19,"body":"this being alert and awake to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1094.48,"endTime":1099.19,"body":"histories of oppression. And to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1099.19,"endTime":1103.09,"body":"kind of current stigma politics"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1099.19,"endTime":1103.09,"body":"in a way. This are the sort of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1103.12,"endTime":1107.38,"body":"anti stigma, practices that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1103.12,"endTime":1107.38,"body":"we're talking about that we need"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1107.38,"endTime":1113.2,"body":"to engage in. And being awake to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1107.38,"endTime":1113.2,"body":"stigma is part of that process."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1113.71,"endTime":1119.14,"body":"I'd like to ask you about your"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1113.71,"endTime":1119.14,"body":"writing. Because I know that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1119.14,"endTime":1123.34,"body":"during the pandemic, you started"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1119.14,"endTime":1123.34,"body":"writing a book of your own"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1123.49,"endTime":1128.32,"body":"called \"Sick Society\". But tell"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1123.49,"endTime":1128.32,"body":"me about the book and why I mean"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1128.35,"endTime":1132.04,"body":"– it's phenomenal you've found"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1128.35,"endTime":1132.04,"body":"time to write it. I know that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1132.04,"endTime":1134.17,"body":"was a challenge from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1132.04,"endTime":1134.17,"body":"conversations that we had at the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1134.17,"endTime":1137.62,"body":"time. And I think it's brilliant"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1134.17,"endTime":1137.62,"body":"that you have, because I think"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1137.65,"endTime":1141.13,"body":"this wisdom that you've got"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1137.65,"endTime":1141.13,"body":"needs to be in the world and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1141.13,"endTime":1145.78,"body":"shared. And people will learn a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1141.13,"endTime":1145.78,"body":"lot from it. So tell me a little"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1145.78,"endTime":1149.5,"body":"bit – I know it's not coming out"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1145.78,"endTime":1149.5,"body":"yet. But tell me a little bit"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1149.53,"endTime":1154.81,"body":"about the book and how it... why"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1149.53,"endTime":1154.81,"body":"you wrote it and how it works?"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1155.47,"endTime":1159.76,"body":"Yeah, well, I wrote"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1155.47,"endTime":1159.76,"body":"it because I think as a dad, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1159.76,"endTime":1165.88,"body":"as a doctor, I'm so fed up of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1159.76,"endTime":1165.88,"body":"this feeling of overwhelm. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1165.91,"endTime":1169.3,"body":"the huge issues – that my kids"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1165.91,"endTime":1169.3,"body":"are talking about, and their"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1169.3,"endTime":1171.91,"body":"friends are talking about –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1169.3,"endTime":1171.91,"body":"that we're just not taking"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1171.91,"endTime":1174.7,"body":"seriously enough. So the issues"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1171.91,"endTime":1174.7,"body":"of poverty, the issues of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1174.7,"endTime":1178.75,"body":"climate change, the issues that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1174.7,"endTime":1178.75,"body":"are leading to such division"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1178.75,"endTime":1183.79,"body":"within our society. And it made"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1178.75,"endTime":1183.79,"body":"me kind of reflect that over the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1183.79,"endTime":1189.22,"body":"last 18 years of my medical"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1183.79,"endTime":1189.22,"body":"practice, that I have met so"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1189.22,"endTime":1195.49,"body":"many people who have come to me"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1189.22,"endTime":1195.49,"body":"wanting help or looking for a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1195.49,"endTime":1199.54,"body":"solution to their problems. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1195.49,"endTime":1199.54,"body":"actually the diagnosis is not"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1199.54,"endTime":1202.12,"body":"that there's some something"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1199.54,"endTime":1202.12,"body":"easily fixable that I can just"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1202.12,"endTime":1206.68,"body":"put a plaster over. There... if"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1202.12,"endTime":1206.68,"body":"we've, if we walk out with these"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1206.68,"endTime":1211.0,"body":"people into society, into"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1206.68,"endTime":1211.0,"body":"community, we find deeper"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1211.18,"endTime":1216.4,"body":"structural issues in society"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1211.18,"endTime":1216.4,"body":"that are making them unwell. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1216.4,"endTime":1219.55,"body":"so \"Sick Society\" is to say,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1216.4,"endTime":1219.55,"body":"many of the people coming"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1219.55,"endTime":1222.31,"body":"through the doors of the NHS and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1219.55,"endTime":1222.31,"body":"through the doors of social"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1222.31,"endTime":1225.07,"body":"care. through the doors of our"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1222.31,"endTime":1225.07,"body":"criminal justice system –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1225.37,"endTime":1231.16,"body":"they're not unwell because of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1225.37,"endTime":1231.16,"body":"bad choices they've made and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1231.16,"endTime":1234.49,"body":"also the solution to their"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1231.16,"endTime":1234.49,"body":"problems are not, let's just put"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1234.49,"endTime":1236.89,"body":"a sticky plaster on or a bit of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1234.49,"endTime":1236.89,"body":"cream here and out they go or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1236.89,"endTime":1240.1,"body":"give them an antidepressant –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1236.89,"endTime":1240.1,"body":"we've got to ask bigger, deeper,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1240.1,"endTime":1244.42,"body":"better questions about the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1240.1,"endTime":1244.42,"body":"sickness within our society. Our"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1244.42,"endTime":1248.05,"body":"society is sick, it is more"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1244.42,"endTime":1248.05,"body":"divided than it's ever been. It"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1248.05,"endTime":1252.46,"body":"is in a real big mess in so many"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1248.05,"endTime":1252.46,"body":"ways. Women in our poorest"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1252.46,"endTime":1256.21,"body":"communities are dying earlier"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1252.46,"endTime":1256.21,"body":"than they have been, for the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1256.21,"endTime":1259.69,"body":"first time since the Second"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1256.21,"endTime":1259.69,"body":"World War. We've got some really"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1259.69,"endTime":1263.74,"body":"deep ingrained issues. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1259.69,"endTime":1263.74,"body":"78,000 children in our care"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1263.74,"endTime":1266.62,"body":"system now. There's some stuff"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1263.74,"endTime":1266.62,"body":"in our society that's just"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1266.62,"endTime":1271.54,"body":"deeply troubling. And so what my"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1266.62,"endTime":1271.54,"body":"book does is it says – so if"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1271.54,"endTime":1274.96,"body":"we're going to take a societal"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1271.54,"endTime":1274.96,"body":"view of these issues– what is it"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1274.96,"endTime":1277.39,"body":"that we might need to change?"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1274.96,"endTime":1277.39,"body":"And it really gets to the core"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1277.39,"endTime":1281.17,"body":"values on which we build our"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1277.39,"endTime":1281.17,"body":"politics and our economics – and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1281.17,"endTime":1286.06,"body":"asks if we were to actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1281.17,"endTime":1286.06,"body":"choose love and kindness, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1286.06,"endTime":1291.25,"body":"compassion, as kind of core"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1286.06,"endTime":1291.25,"body":"foundations of how we might"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1291.25,"endTime":1295.39,"body":"reimagine a society together –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1291.25,"endTime":1295.39,"body":"in terms of how we relate to the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1295.39,"endTime":1299.41,"body":"ecology, how we relate to each"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1295.39,"endTime":1299.41,"body":"other within communities – what"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1299.41,"endTime":1303.61,"body":"might the world be like? I want"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1299.41,"endTime":1303.61,"body":"us to explore those themes –"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1303.61,"endTime":1307.81,"body":"because we are on some kind of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1303.61,"endTime":1307.81,"body":"highway to hell, in terms of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1307.81,"endTime":1312.76,"body":"climate change, and societal"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1307.81,"endTime":1312.76,"body":"breakdown – and we need to find"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1312.79,"endTime":1314.32,"body":"a new and better way together."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1315.43,"endTime":1319.57,"body":"Totally agree. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1315.43,"endTime":1319.57,"body":"I think the reason I agree is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1319.6,"endTime":1323.53,"body":"partly because I've been able to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1319.6,"endTime":1323.53,"body":"work with people like you, you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1323.53,"endTime":1326.32,"body":"know. And I think when I first"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1323.53,"endTime":1326.32,"body":"met you, you know, you started"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1326.32,"endTime":1329.65,"body":"talking about love – and I'm"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1326.32,"endTime":1329.65,"body":"like, oh, that's a bit, you know"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1329.65,"endTime":1334.48,"body":"– for us cynical academics – we"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1329.65,"endTime":1334.48,"body":"don't talk about things like"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1334.78,"endTime":1337.96,"body":"love, or we think it's a bit"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1334.78,"endTime":1337.96,"body":"wishy washy or a bit... But"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1337.96,"endTime":1342.01,"body":"actually you mean something more"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1337.96,"endTime":1342.01,"body":"than that – you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1342.85,"endTime":1347.44,"body":"a shift in values, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1342.85,"endTime":1347.44,"body":"shift in, that actually – as you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1347.44,"endTime":1351.91,"body":"say impacts not, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1347.44,"endTime":1351.91,"body":"social values, but it's also"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1351.91,"endTime":1356.08,"body":"economic – the way we think"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1351.91,"endTime":1356.08,"body":"about economic value or value in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1356.08,"endTime":1360.55,"body":"economic only terms. It's a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1356.08,"endTime":1360.55,"body":"whole, it's the whole piece that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1360.58,"endTime":1364.96,"body":"has to shift. And I guess what"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1360.58,"endTime":1364.96,"body":"we've been trying to talk about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1364.96,"endTime":1372.1,"body":"in the in this episode is about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1364.96,"endTime":1372.1,"body":"how forms of solidarity and you"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1372.1,"endTime":1374.83,"body":"know – we can call them love,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1372.1,"endTime":1374.83,"body":"and we can call it kindness, and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1374.83,"endTime":1378.55,"body":"we can call it friendship – or"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1374.83,"endTime":1378.55,"body":"how forms of solidarity have to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1378.55,"endTime":1382.39,"body":"emerge – where people in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1378.55,"endTime":1382.39,"body":"different positions of power can"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1382.39,"endTime":1387.04,"body":"ally themselves with others. And"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1382.39,"endTime":1387.04,"body":"solidarity is also a word that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1387.04,"endTime":1390.37,"body":"gets chucked around a lot."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1387.04,"endTime":1390.37,"body":"What's it mean, or there's a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1390.37,"endTime":1394.0,"body":"kind of political sort of image"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1390.37,"endTime":1394.0,"body":"that springs to mind, of a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1394.0,"endTime":1399.16,"body":"certain kind. But I think what"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1394.0,"endTime":1399.16,"body":"you mean or what we've kind of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1399.19,"endTime":1403.0,"body":"experienced in different forms"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1399.19,"endTime":1403.0,"body":"by solidarity – is about that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1403.0,"endTime":1406.69,"body":"kind of humility, the self"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1403.0,"endTime":1406.69,"body":"reflection, it's about a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1406.69,"endTime":1412.54,"body":"solidarity that is... it's a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1406.69,"endTime":1412.54,"body":"continual practice. It's not,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1413.23,"endTime":1417.04,"body":"it's not an abstract thing –"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1413.23,"endTime":1417.04,"body":"it's a continual practice, of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1417.04,"endTime":1421.84,"body":"checking yourself listening,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1417.04,"endTime":1421.84,"body":"make, putting yourself out with,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1421.84,"endTime":1422.8,"body":"with people,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1423.49,"endTime":1426.19,"body":"If you use the word"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1423.49,"endTime":1426.19,"body":"solidarity, I would use the word"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1426.19,"endTime":1429.82,"body":"quite simply friendship – I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1426.19,"endTime":1429.82,"body":"think a society of friends. So I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1429.82,"endTime":1434.59,"body":"really love the Quaker movement."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1429.82,"endTime":1434.59,"body":"I'm not a Quaker, but I've got a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1434.59,"endTime":1438.28,"body":"lot of people around me who are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1434.59,"endTime":1438.28,"body":"and I love, you know, some of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1438.28,"endTime":1442.0,"body":"the founding principles of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1438.28,"endTime":1442.0,"body":"Quakerism. So they talk about"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1442.06,"endTime":1446.26,"body":"radical wonder – a real sense of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1442.06,"endTime":1446.26,"body":"awe in the world that we live"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1446.26,"endTime":1449.62,"body":"in, and the beauty of people and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1446.26,"endTime":1449.62,"body":"the world. It's like have a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1449.62,"endTime":1453.34,"body":"sense of wonder. The second"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1449.62,"endTime":1453.34,"body":"thing is radical justice. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1453.34,"endTime":1456.91,"body":"the third is radical friendship"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1453.34,"endTime":1456.91,"body":"– and I think they're not bad"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1456.91,"endTime":1459.64,"body":"principles on which to try and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1456.91,"endTime":1459.64,"body":"build a society together – a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1459.64,"endTime":1462.28,"body":"Society of Friends is another"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1459.64,"endTime":1462.28,"body":"name for the Quakers. And I"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1462.28,"endTime":1465.79,"body":"think there is something so"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1462.28,"endTime":1465.79,"body":"beautiful about friendship"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1465.79,"endTime":1468.64,"body":"across difference because it"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1465.79,"endTime":1468.64,"body":"changes us."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1469.87,"endTime":1474.49,"body":"We talked about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1469.87,"endTime":1474.49,"body":"the local – our own work, our"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1474.49,"endTime":1479.2,"body":"own practices, your practices,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1474.49,"endTime":1479.2,"body":"the challenges. How do you how"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1479.2,"endTime":1484.87,"body":"do we connect those forms of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1479.2,"endTime":1484.87,"body":"social solidarity and activism"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1485.47,"endTime":1492.61,"body":"that we do locally to more"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1485.47,"endTime":1492.61,"body":"horizontal social movements,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1492.76,"endTime":1498.79,"body":"bigger, national, and indeed,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1492.76,"endTime":1498.79,"body":"global? Thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1498.82,"endTime":1503.71,"body":"ecological global level change?"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1498.82,"endTime":1503.71,"body":"Yeah, how do we do that – have"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1503.71,"endTime":1507.25,"body":"we just got the local at the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1503.71,"endTime":1507.25,"body":"moment because we're surviving"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1507.28,"endTime":1512.86,"body":"through a crisis, but or is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1507.28,"endTime":1512.86,"body":"there some way to connect the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1512.86,"endTime":1516.49,"body":"local solidarities to bigger"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1512.86,"endTime":1516.49,"body":"social movements?"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1516.76,"endTime":1519.49,"body":"I think social"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1516.76,"endTime":1519.49,"body":"movement is what changes"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1519.58,"endTime":1524.53,"body":"society. So if we look back over"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1519.58,"endTime":1524.53,"body":"the last 150 years – and you"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1524.53,"endTime":1527.59,"body":"think about the suffragette"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1524.53,"endTime":1527.59,"body":"movement, and women's votes and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1527.59,"endTime":1530.92,"body":"women's rights, if we think"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1527.59,"endTime":1530.92,"body":"about the civil rights movement"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1530.95,"endTime":1536.44,"body":"in the US, and how that's begun"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1530.95,"endTime":1536.44,"body":"to impact around racial equality"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1536.47,"endTime":1539.56,"body":"– that we have still got so much"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1536.47,"endTime":1539.56,"body":"work to do on both of those."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1540.16,"endTime":1545.41,"body":"LGBTQ plus rights, again – still"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1540.16,"endTime":1545.41,"body":"so much work to do – but what a"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1545.53,"endTime":1550.0,"body":"movement in terms of change"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1545.53,"endTime":1550.0,"body":"globally already. Thinking about"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1550.03,"endTime":1553.45,"body":"now Enough is Enough, or the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1550.03,"endTime":1553.45,"body":"climate change movement. You"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1553.45,"endTime":1557.44,"body":"know, there are, there are some"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1553.45,"endTime":1557.44,"body":"really key lessons for us to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1557.44,"endTime":1560.41,"body":"learn from these movements in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1557.44,"endTime":1560.41,"body":"terms of how we join things up,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1560.41,"endTime":1564.64,"body":"how we do build relationships,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1560.41,"endTime":1564.64,"body":"how we – rather than compete"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1564.64,"endTime":1568.39,"body":"actually join forces together."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1564.64,"endTime":1568.39,"body":"Things have changed in society"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1568.39,"endTime":1571.45,"body":"because of social movements. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1568.39,"endTime":1571.45,"body":"they will change more as we join"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1571.45,"endTime":1575.29,"body":"things together – and actually"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1571.45,"endTime":1575.29,"body":"put our own weight and passion"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1575.29,"endTime":1578.71,"body":"into them as well. I think,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1575.29,"endTime":1578.71,"body":"alongside that, then you have to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1578.74,"endTime":1581.5,"body":"think about government,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1578.74,"endTime":1581.5,"body":"government and policy and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1581.5,"endTime":1585.73,"body":"especially funding – the funding"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1581.5,"endTime":1585.73,"body":"formulas that need to shift"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1585.73,"endTime":1589.51,"body":"towards areas of real change."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1585.73,"endTime":1589.51,"body":"And that's why I think some of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1589.51,"endTime":1592.75,"body":"the great feminist economists at"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1589.51,"endTime":1592.75,"body":"the moment – like Kate Raworth,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1592.87,"endTime":1596.56,"body":"like Katherine Trebek, like"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1592.87,"endTime":1596.56,"body":"Mariana Mazzucato – we need to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1596.56,"endTime":1599.62,"body":"pay attention to people who are"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1596.56,"endTime":1599.62,"body":"speaking into this space, and be"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1599.62,"endTime":1602.65,"body":"willing to find new ways of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1599.62,"endTime":1602.65,"body":"doing things together. To fail"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1602.65,"endTime":1606.13,"body":"early, to try again, to work out"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1602.65,"endTime":1606.13,"body":"why things didn't quite work,"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1606.16,"endTime":1609.1,"body":"and to go again. And that's"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1606.16,"endTime":1609.1,"body":"where movement begins to happen."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1609.19,"endTime":1614.05,"body":"But then also, we need to draw"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1609.19,"endTime":1614.05,"body":"on the kind of wisdom that says"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1614.35,"endTime":1617.23,"body":"– but who are the real change"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1614.35,"endTime":1617.23,"body":"makers within our communities?"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1617.32,"endTime":1620.59,"body":"We need people who are long in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1617.32,"endTime":1620.59,"body":"the tooth, who are really"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1620.59,"endTime":1623.8,"body":"committed to communities and who"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1620.59,"endTime":1623.8,"body":"are going to be there long term"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1623.8,"endTime":1627.7,"body":"– we need people who are going"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1623.8,"endTime":1627.7,"body":"to be the agents of change in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1627.7,"endTime":1631.81,"body":"irritation. And we need people"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1627.7,"endTime":1631.81,"body":"who are then going to watch over"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1631.93,"endTime":1636.13,"body":"relationships and care for"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1631.93,"endTime":1636.13,"body":"communities, as social change"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1636.13,"endTime":1639.19,"body":"begins to happen so that it"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1636.13,"endTime":1639.19,"body":"doesn't become divisive, or"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1639.19,"endTime":1644.68,"body":"competitive, or adversary. It"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1639.19,"endTime":1644.68,"body":"becomes collaborative and kind"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1644.68,"endTime":1647.44,"body":"and conducive to the kind of"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1644.68,"endTime":1647.44,"body":"societies that we want to build"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1647.44,"endTime":1650.71,"body":"together. So keeping a strong"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1647.44,"endTime":1650.71,"body":"sense of vision – within the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1650.71,"endTime":1653.47,"body":"social movements for the"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1650.71,"endTime":1653.47,"body":"societal change that we want to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1653.47,"endTime":1656.62,"body":"see – I think is absolutely"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1653.47,"endTime":1656.62,"body":"vital. And there's so much great"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1656.62,"endTime":1658.81,"body":"work that's gone on around"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1656.62,"endTime":1658.81,"body":"social movements, and, and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1658.81,"endTime":1663.04,"body":"that's why I think we should"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1658.81,"endTime":1663.04,"body":"still keep hope alive – change"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1663.04,"endTime":1668.17,"body":"can happen, change has happened."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1663.04,"endTime":1668.17,"body":"And we are at, I would say, an"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1668.17,"endTime":1671.62,"body":"apocalyptic moment. That means"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1668.17,"endTime":1671.62,"body":"things have been revealed for"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1671.62,"endTime":1675.82,"body":"what they're truly like."},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1671.62,"endTime":1675.82,"body":"Apocalypse simply means \"to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1675.85,"endTime":1680.29,"body":"reveal\". So what is being"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1675.85,"endTime":1680.29,"body":"revealed right now? Massive"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1680.29,"endTime":1684.61,"body":"societal injustice, unbelievable"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1680.29,"endTime":1684.61,"body":"destruction to the climate. And"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1684.61,"endTime":1689.77,"body":"so now is the exact moment in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1684.61,"endTime":1689.77,"body":"which the fulcrum turns – now is"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1689.77,"endTime":1692.74,"body":"the moment to draw the line in"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1689.77,"endTime":1692.74,"body":"the sand and say, things have to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1692.74,"endTime":1697.12,"body":"change. And so when we feel that"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1692.74,"endTime":1697.12,"body":"sense of impetus – when we feel"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1697.33,"endTime":1700.66,"body":"things beginning to shift and"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1697.33,"endTime":1700.66,"body":"turn – that's when we begin to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1700.66,"endTime":1703.42,"body":"feel the hope and the energy to"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1700.66,"endTime":1703.42,"body":"create the future that in our"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1703.42,"endTime":1706.51,"body":"hearts we really believe is"},{"speaker":"Andy Knox","startTime":1703.42,"endTime":1706.51,"body":"possible."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1710.23,"endTime":1713.92,"body":"Andy. it's been"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1710.23,"endTime":1713.92,"body":"absolutely fantastic listening"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1713.92,"endTime":1717.82,"body":"to you and talking to you – and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1713.92,"endTime":1717.82,"body":"it's good to end with hope."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1717.85,"endTime":1719.32,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1724.15,"endTime":1727.33,"body":"I can't imagine how anyone"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1724.15,"endTime":1727.33,"body":"hearing today's conversation"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1727.33,"endTime":1730.48,"body":"could conclude that we're in"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1727.33,"endTime":1730.48,"body":"anything other than a state of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1730.48,"endTime":1733.36,"body":"emergency. And as we're"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1730.48,"endTime":1733.36,"body":"approaching the close of the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1733.36,"endTime":1737.14,"body":"series for now, I wanted to say"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1733.36,"endTime":1737.14,"body":"a few extra words – a bit of an"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1737.14,"endTime":1738.28,"body":"essay, I guess."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1742.72,"endTime":1746.86,"body":"In 1982, the American writer and"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1742.72,"endTime":1746.86,"body":"civil rights activist Audrey"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1746.86,"endTime":1749.95,"body":"Lorde, gave a lecture called"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1746.86,"endTime":1749.95,"body":"\"Learning from the Sixties\" as"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1749.95,"endTime":1753.91,"body":"part of an event celebrating"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1749.95,"endTime":1753.91,"body":"Malcolm X. She said in that,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1753.94,"endTime":1758.38,"body":"that in each of us, there's a"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1753.94,"endTime":1758.38,"body":"piece of humaneness that knows"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1758.38,"endTime":1761.56,"body":"we're not being served by the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1758.38,"endTime":1761.56,"body":"machine – which orchestrates"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1761.56,"endTime":1765.64,"body":"crisis after crisis – and is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1761.56,"endTime":1765.64,"body":"grinding all our futures into"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1765.64,"endTime":1770.14,"body":"dust. She went on to talk about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1765.64,"endTime":1770.14,"body":"how – if we're to keep at bay,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1770.14,"endTime":1773.65,"body":"the forces that work to oppress"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1770.14,"endTime":1773.65,"body":"us – we must recognise that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1773.65,"endTime":1777.49,"body":"attack against one of us is an"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1773.65,"endTime":1777.49,"body":"attack on all of us, who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1777.49,"endTime":1780.25,"body":"recognise that our interests"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1777.49,"endTime":1780.25,"body":"aren't being served by the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1780.25,"endTime":1781.63,"body":"current systems."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1784.21,"endTime":1787.9,"body":"In recent decades, we've seen"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1784.21,"endTime":1787.9,"body":"new tactics and strategies of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1788.11,"endTime":1792.58,"body":"machine breaking emerge, to take"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1788.11,"endTime":1792.58,"body":"on the stigma machines that"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1792.58,"endTime":1796.06,"body":"shape our world – from"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1792.58,"endTime":1796.06,"body":"environmental protesters who"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1796.06,"endTime":1800.02,"body":"lock themselves into vehicles"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1796.06,"endTime":1800.02,"body":"and buildings and deface"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1800.02,"endTime":1804.28,"body":"paintings –  to the disability"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1800.02,"endTime":1804.28,"body":"rights protesters who use their"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1804.28,"endTime":1809.17,"body":"wheelchairs as weapons to block"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1804.28,"endTime":1809.17,"body":"government buildings, who hold"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1809.2,"endTime":1813.64,"body":"die-in protests against changes"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1809.2,"endTime":1813.64,"body":"to medical, health and social"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1813.64,"endTime":1818.38,"body":"care. The hackers who expose the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1813.64,"endTime":1818.38,"body":"innards of the machines seeding"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1818.38,"endTime":1823.03,"body":"white supremacist ideologies"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1818.38,"endTime":1823.03,"body":"across the world. Now the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1823.03,"endTime":1827.56,"body":"challenge is how to unite these"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1823.03,"endTime":1827.56,"body":"very diverse and intertwined"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1827.56,"endTime":1832.57,"body":"struggles for freedom – in order"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1827.56,"endTime":1832.57,"body":"to forge solidarities to break"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1832.57,"endTime":1836.08,"body":"the machines that are – to use"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1832.57,"endTime":1836.08,"body":"Lorde's words – grinding our"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1836.08,"endTime":1843.4,"body":"futures into dust. If you want"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1836.08,"endTime":1843.4,"body":"to read more about stigma and do"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1843.4,"endTime":1847.15,"body":"something after hearing these"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1843.4,"endTime":1847.15,"body":"conversations, there are loads"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1847.15,"endTime":1851.71,"body":"of resources you can access – my"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1847.15,"endTime":1851.71,"body":"book \"Stigma\", yes – but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1851.74,"endTime":1855.01,"body":"actually loads of community"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1851.74,"endTime":1855.01,"body":"groups and movements like the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1855.01,"endTime":1858.67,"body":"ones we've raised in these"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1855.01,"endTime":1858.67,"body":"episodes. We'll share a load of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1858.67,"endTime":1862.93,"body":"resources in our episode notes"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1858.67,"endTime":1862.93,"body":"and at this shows section on the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1862.93,"endTime":1865.66,"body":"podcast page of"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1862.93,"endTime":1865.66,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org."},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1866.83,"endTime":1872.53,"body":"Please also, of course, share"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1866.83,"endTime":1872.53,"body":"this series far and wide. When I"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1872.53,"endTime":1876.34,"body":"was speaking with Andy about"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1872.53,"endTime":1876.34,"body":"feeling woke and being awake, it"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1876.34,"endTime":1880.81,"body":"made me reflect on how woken up"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1876.34,"endTime":1880.81,"body":"and invigorated I felt making"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1880.81,"endTime":1884.65,"body":"this series. It's really"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1880.81,"endTime":1884.65,"body":"inspired me to stay awake to"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1884.65,"endTime":1889.06,"body":"stigma. And remember, stigma is"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1884.65,"endTime":1889.06,"body":"always there in some guise – but"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1889.24,"endTime":1894.28,"body":"we can fight it too. My producer"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1889.24,"endTime":1894.28,"body":"was Alice Bloch. And the sound"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1894.28,"endTime":1898.03,"body":"engineer was Dave Crackles,"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1894.28,"endTime":1898.03,"body":"Thanks for listening to the"},{"speaker":"Imogen Tyler","startTime":1898.03,"endTime":1899.26,"body":"Stigma Conversations."}]}