9: Birth Control & Conception during Extended Nursing with Fertility Awareness Specialist Holly Leever L.Ac. MTOM, Dipl.OM

Holly and I talk about the power of connecting with your body during your breastfeeding journey to understand your health and fertility.   We discuss alternatives to hormonal birth control & how to feel empowered to conceive without weaning. 

Holly is the owner of Rosebud Wellness, where she practices women's holistic health as a licensed Acupuncturist, Herbalist, Yoni Steam Therapist, Arvigo Abdominal Massage Therapist & Fertility Awareness Mentor. Holly became interested in working with women's health after learning how much could be revealed about a woman's overall health by looking at the parameters of the menstrual cycle.

She has continued to study a variety of techniques in order to offer women at all stages of life, from menarche to menopause, the care they deserve. She is especially passionate about working with women in the perinatal time (prenatal, birth & postpartum).

Holly also hosts a weekly podcast called, Womb Wisdom. The podcast is a combination of information on women's holistic health practices and stories from women on their experience with periods, fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum and motherhood.

Check out Holly's Instagram and Website. 

Grab your free guide to say "No" to the feed while still saying "yes" to the need at  www.ownyourparentingstory.com/guide

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Transcript

[00:00:00] In this episode I talk with Holly Lever, who is a, um, she's an expert in the fertility awareness method as well as a mom breastfeeding and almost three year old. So she gets it on all fronts. She gets it, and we talk about the way that our bodies shift and change hormonally through pregnancy and the postpartum period and breastfeeding into toddler breastfeeding.

We talk about alternatives to hormonal birth control when you're trying to. Pregnancy [00:00:30] during breastfeeding. As we know, hormonal birth control has side effects and it can impact your breastfeeding journey. Um, we also talk about how to call in a pregnancy, how to conceive while breastfeeding, and really feel empowered in all of those areas.

It's an awesome conversation. Make sure that you go and follow Holly on Instagram. Her Instagram is full of wonderful wisdom and. And you can grab the link to do that in the show notes. Oh, and by the way, [00:01:00] we had a really awesome conversation before I even hit record, so I kind of hit the record button in the middle of it, so we kind of just jumped right in.

I didn't wanna edit it out though, because Holly has some great insights and, um, I didn't wanna cut those out, but it might seem a little confusing, so just hang tight with me, you know, , it'll all be good. It'll all make sense.

Yeah, I mean, so what we were talking about, cuz I, I think the recording started like after I made my [00:01:30] comment, but I was just saying that I work with a lot of people that are wanting to get pregnant specifically, and so they're jazzed about learning fertility awareness and tracking their temperature and cervical mucus.

And then the baby comes and it's sort of like out the window. They just kind of forget about that. And there's so many uses in the postpartum phase is kind of what you were commenting on. Yeah. Yeah. In assessing your health and be a, being able to use it as birth [00:02:00] control. And we can talk about breastfeeding in particular, um, if it feels relevant because I know you mentioned that you kind of gear your podcast a little bit more towards.

Toddler and older moms. But the, I did kind of wanna touch on the Lactational Amen method. Yeah. Cause it's kinda part of this whole thing, but it doesn't absolutely last until toddlerhood, so, no. Yeah. So maybe I'll start from the beginning then with [00:02:30] that. So, okay. So say, and one of the things I also wanted to mention is that for pregnant moms or people that.

Calling in a pregnancy. It could be a really good time to learn fertility awareness then. Or, or even before you get pregnant, so that you can kind of like get all of the Yeah. Methods and understanding under your belt before then you have a little baby to care for. Yeah. But if [00:03:00] that hasn't happened, then you already have a baby, then it's not a problem.

But it's just easier to navigate having. Almost three year old of my own. It's everything before having a child is a lot easier too. So, um, but it's everything it's possible to learn after as well. Um, so say you have your baby, so the Lactational Amenia. Method is kind of part of a fertility awareness method that [00:03:30] not everybody fully aligns with, but I'll just mention it here.

Um, and so basically what it means is that if you're breastfeeding fully, which there's seven, seven different things to consider that mean that you're breastfeeding fully. So essentially, if you are. Nursing on demand, uh, not any like schedules or anything like that, not following any, uh, feeding schedules.

You're just kind of like always with your baby in pretty close contact, sort of skin to skin [00:04:00] most of the time. So this will last for the first si six months because you, if you are fully breastfeeding, which I'll talk about all of the, the seven in a little bit, um, that suppresses f s, H and lh. If you don't know what those are, it's okay.

They're just a couple of hormones that are responsible for ovulation to happen, so there would be no way that you could get pregnant if you don't ovulate. And so because those hormones are suppressed while you're [00:04:30] fully breastfeeding, that's why you can use this method as a method of birth control in the first six months.

Only if you don't get your cycle back in that six months and you are not producing any cervical mucus. So there's a little, there's so much variability. I'm sure you know this in when women get their cycles back. And not everybody knows this, so I'll just throw it out there. You can, you ovulate before you get your first period.

Yes. [00:05:00] So that is where Irish twins come from. Or like, you know, people kind of getting accidentally pregnant and thinking that they aren't fertile yet because they haven't had their period yet. And that is because the first period is proceeded by that ovulation and you can get. If you are not assessing sort of what's going on or on some kind of birth control, like using some sort of birth control method?

Yeah. So to go back to what I was saying with the lactational amenorrhea method, um, so you're exclusively, uh, nursing day [00:05:30] and night, no schedules, sleeping with your baby, napping with your baby, pacifying your baby, and comforting at your. No bottles or pacifiers and you're not really ever separate from your baby or restricting, um, nursing in any way.

Yeah. I call it the yeah. Ecological breastfeeding. So you're like literally, yeah. You're literally your baby's ecosystem . Yes. You are. Everything to your baby . 

Totally. And I just wanna recognize that [00:06:00] coming from. Huge, massive amounts of privilege. I was able to do that with my daughter, but I know that a lot of people, especially in the United States, have to go back to work immediately.

Right. So this isn't possible for everybody. So nothing about what I mentioned is a judgment. If you can't do that, it's just, that's just what the method is. Yeah. So if you are, 

if you're, I think it's, Go ahead. It's so important to, to make that, because a lot of people say Exclu, if you're exclusively breastfeeding [00:06:30] for the first six months, and then it becomes confusing and it's like, no, it's actually not just exclusively breastfeeding, it's ecologically breastfeeding, which is a, which is a different ballgame.

So it's, it is so important, cuz that's when you get the idea of like, people be like, oh, you can use breastfeeding as birth control. And then you have everybody say, no you can't. No you can't. No you can't. And it's like, You can, but it's, it is very specific and I think that that's just like a very important distinction to make.

Cause I'm so glad you brought 

that up. This, this is why I love the podcast platform as [00:07:00] opposed to other Instagram or whatever. It's like the, we need to have these nuanced conversations of like Absolutely. Yes. And you know, you can use breastfeeding and there are these other things to consider. So, Anyway.

Yeah. If you kind of have already learned how to read your body and assess your cervical mucus, which I'll talk about in a little bit, um, prior to pregnancy, then you would probably feel a little bit more comfortable using this method for [00:07:30] birth control. Condoms are hugely underrated, in my opinion. They are a wonderful form of birth control, so just to throw that out there.

Um, but I mean, at your. Six week appointment for a lot of people there is the birth control conversation. I know that there was for me, um, and I had a home birth with midwives and they were not at all pushing hormonal birth control on me. They knew that I practiced the fertility awareness method and were just kind of [00:08:00] like checking in about that.

Mm-hmm. . Um, but because of that, I know that that is kind of when people start talking about it. Yeah. So that's. , you know, your baby's six week old, six weeks old. There's a lot going on. Um, and it would kind of make sense just like go, go on the mini pill or whatever. I think is what they tend to recommend for breastfeeding moms, because there's less hormones, but there less hormones.

Doesn't mean that there's no hormones. And synthetic hormones do impact your body [00:08:30] in a number of ways outside of just preventing pregnancy. So, I mean, I could go down that rabbit hole if you want me to, but maybe we, 

no, I think that that's so important. I'll have you back, we'll come back every week, Holly.

We'll just talk so much about this. I, I think that, that's so important. And I was actually really grateful that I had an OB for my, um, daughter, for my oldest. And I just said we were gonna use condoms, and he was like, great condoms, work amazing with breastfeeding. Like, you're, that's awesome. [00:09:00] So like, I was grateful for that, but I know that a lot of people don't even think about.

Other alternatives. It's like, okay, I have to pick which hormonal birth control I'm gonna go on. And um, even with the mini pill from a breastfeeding perspective, it absolutely affects your body. And the mini pill does have less. Hormones, but it doesn't mean it cannot affect breast milk, cuz it still can like your breast milk or your, uh, breast supply.

But also that it doesn't, because it has less hormones, it can still impact your body, but it [00:09:30] also doesn't necessarily mean you won't get pregnant. It can be less effective too. Yeah. So it's kind of like, uh, . Yeah. There's, there are other alternatives that I think it's important to discuss. You. 

Totally. Yeah.

And I think the, the condom piece, I, I think there's a lot of resistance about it in terms of like, pleasure, right? So I would just invite people to be curious about other types of pleasure at sexuality, you know, like exploring other things other than just like [00:10:00] penis and vagina. Sex. I know that of course for me personally, yeah, like that makes a really big difference for that part of it, that if you use a condom and it's slightly less 

comfortable, I feel like we could go down a whole road about like patriarchy and everything too here, but totally.

Yeah. But um, I. Uh, uh, my podcast is airing actually today on, um, another podcast of my episode. Um, it's called The Not Tonight Podcast, so I'll give a slight plug for my friends Rachel and Caitlin doing that. Um, but we were all in a program together talking [00:10:30] about like sexuality and, and whatnot and really, I mean, deep diving pleasure and what that means and all of those pieces with my, I'm going to have my good friend Janet Denton, how on who is like a huge advocate for talking about that, but I'm just so glad you mentioned that and I think it, it's so important to talk about that here.

We, we do think about like, um, you know, condoms as being like, less pleasurable or, you know, or like, we start to think about like, I don't know, we get caught up in what the sexual experience will be like with certain forms of birth control [00:11:00] or, you know, with certain ideas. And I think that we just need to like be so open to new possibilities about what that can look like and about, you know, and like really looking.

Where you are at and what your situation is. Because I think I, yeah, I think we just have these cultural narratives that we don't question and we just like, oh, the condoms, but they're so difficult to put on beforehand and they're, you know, like they decrease sens sensitivity and it's like, but okay, maybe like, you know, like, so I'm so glad you brought that up.

Well, and part of the reason that I brought it up, maybe it seems sort of confusing because I'm talking about [00:11:30] the fertility awareness method as a potential option for birth control. But the reason I talk about. Condoms or potentially some other barrier methods. Also, the withdrawal method, which I'm another rabbit hole, I could go down that, that you have to do that correctly in order for it to be an accepted form of birth control.

But essentially the reason I'm bringing it up in the context of fertility awareness is because fertility awareness basically, Shows you or helps you to [00:12:00] identify the times of your cycle that you're fertile and the times of your cycle that you are not. And so the postpartum phase can be a little bit confusing because as your hormones are recalibrating and breastfeeding's happening, and you can also produce arousal fluid.

When you're nursing, so it can be sort of like what's coming out of me, sort of confusing time, which is why in the postpartum phase I usually recommend, that's sort of a really [00:12:30] crucial time for people to work with somebody one-on-one that can actually, they can like send them pictures of their mucus.

Maybe that sounds weird, but , that's a big part of my job, um, is to help people identify. What's coming out of their body, what's fertile, what's not, and when they need to protect themselves from pregnancy if they are not wanting to get pregnant. Right? So, In general, women are fertile for six days out of the cycle.

So it's five days on [00:13:00] average of when you are producing fertile quality cervical mucus. And then ovulation day itself is what makes up that six days. So if you have a 28 to 30, say like, yeah, 28 to 32 day cycle. Only six of those days, you need to protect yourself from pregnancy. Right. Okay. So a lot of people don't know that and that's why they go on birth control because they're like, I don't wanna get pregnant, and there's all of [00:13:30] these days that I need to be avoiding pregnancy.

But I think it really helps to open women's eyes. When I say six days, it's like those six days, if you wanna have sex all six of those days. , then you would just need to use some, right, like other barrier method or withdrawal potentially during those six days only. But most people are not having sex that all of those days anyways, right?

Um, but you might want to, um, at some times in [00:14:00] there around ovulation because women's libido does tend to increase at that time. So that's just something to be aware of. So that's sort of like fertility awareness. In general, right? And then in the postpartum phase, there are two main phases. So the first phase is right after you have your baby.

And then you pass what's called the Nokia, which is like blood and tissue and everything that's being cleared out after the [00:14:30] birth. So it depends on the person, how long that lasts for. And once that is fully gone, then you start checking for cervical mucus and the way that you check for cervical mucus.

And the method that I have been trained in, Is to fold a piece of tissue, a piece of toilet paper flat, and then you wipe it on your vulva from front to back. And you do that every single time before and after you go to the bathroom. Which sounds like sometimes people like eyes glaze over at this point.

They're like, what? Like that's so much [00:15:00] um, the time. But I mean, anytime you're going to the bathroom, you're always wiping after anyways. So you're just adding in this. Additional time that you're wiping before just to check for cervical mucus prior to urination or having a bowel movement. And a lot of times people will, will forget to do the before for, you know, months, years.

Sometimes it takes some time to really just like get it to be part of your practice, but. Essentially during this first phase, you're [00:15:30] just checking for cervical mucus, and what you're looking for is for a point of change. So you'll do this for three to four weeks basically to get what we call your basic infertile pattern.

And so you're basically looking for what is my. , is there any mucus That's part of my basic infertile pattern. I, I hope this isn't confusing. You let me know if you have additional No, I 

mean, I, I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm following super well, so essentially what you're saying is [00:16:00] that cervix is producing a, a certain amount of mucus, like all the time.

And so sometimes that might be a lot for some women and that's just their baseline. And then other people it's not as much. So like, so after 

you, well, so not, yeah. So I'm so glad you. Is that, is that, am I hearing that properly? Well, so the cervix is, Producing cervical mucus around the fertile window, right?

Normally, but in the postpartum phase, it's [00:16:30] possible that okay, you are with the hormonal like recalibration and all of that, that you might notice that you have more mucus, and it's not that you're fertile every single day. It's just that your body's kind of figuring it out still. Right. That's why this phase is confused.

So you're kind of, you're discovering a new baseline for the postpartum where you're like, exactly. I normally produce a little bit and that's normal for me. Yes. Is that what I'm hearing? 

Okay. Exactly. And then at some point, so you do that for three to four weeks [00:17:00] to establish what your basic and fertile pattern is.

And so for me personally, mine was dry. I didn't have any mu. At all during that three to four week time where I was getting my baseline. Some women, that's the case. I just like for people to know that if you're producing some mucus at that time, you're right. Identifying the basic and fertile pattern first, and then you're looking for the point of change from then on.

Yeah, and what that means is that your mucus will look different. [00:17:30] So there is a whole. Sheet of different ways to categorize cervical mucus and the method that I've been trained in. Some methods are not this specific. I really like how specific this method is because you are never wondering what you're seeing because you are so clear about what you're looking for is.

The color of the mucus, the consistency and how much it stretches every single time before and after you go to the bathroom. So you, [00:18:00] there's never a question of like, what's happening here? I can't say that there's never a question. Sometimes things can be confusing, especially in the beginning, but yeah.

Yeah, and so, so basically you're looking for a point of change. So essentially, if you normally have this like lotiony sort of looking stuff all the time, and then you notice that you shift into seeing more of this like watery, lubricated, what they called this egg white consistency, right? And [00:18:30] in the beginning, in the postpartum phase, you might not have.

The egg white that you maybe saw before pregnancy. It depends on a number of factors of sort of like your nutritional status prior to pregnancy, how the pregnancy went, and how you were able to care for yourself, and then also if you're being depleted in the post. Partum. As you might notice that you have a lot less mucus than you did before.

So not necessarily always looking for what you saw prior [00:19:00] to pregnancy, cuz you have a different body now. So like it 

might and it could go, yeah. So there's some in some benefits. It's like, oh, like just start afterwards. You're like not coming in with these preconceived ideas because your body has changed drastically.

So Totally. You can't necessarily bring that framework in with you. Free your mind and with you. 

Totally. And I mean, I will say that I think you can get back to sort of yes. More where you were potentially, but it does take some time. So, um, [00:19:30] the other part of the method that I have been trained in is to track your basal body temperature.

Yes. But in this first phase, it's typically. Recommended to take your temperature because it's super unreliable at this time. Gotcha. It, it's so hard to go back to that newborn phase, but I'm like, yeah, my daughter woke up every two hours for, yeah. I don't know, the first three months or something. Yeah. So I was not tracking my temperature at all because it, [00:20:00] in order to get an accurate B B T reading, you need five hours of uninterrupted sleep.

Exactly. And I mean, that's just a guideline. Um, And yeah, most new moms are not getting that. So at this three month mark, potentially when your child is sleeping, um, more consistently sleeping through the night, I don't know. I mean, my daughter's still kinda wakes up sometimes, 

so Yeah, because you're gonna hit that, like, you're gonna hit the sleep regressions potentially at four and [00:20:30] nine-ish months.

Right? Like, so you're gonna have these windows of time where things kind of go a little wet sideways. 

Um, and if they're sick or whatever, then they're wanting to nurse sort of all night. And you're just sort of worrying. So basically you can introduce, tracking your temperature after you start seeing cervical mucus is sort of okay.

The general recommendation or, but the other thing that you can use B B T for outside of tracking when you ovulate is to identify any issues [00:21:00] with your metabolism. Mm. So I do like for people to do. Kind of whenever they're able to. And there are wearable devices like the temp drop for example. But what I found with the temp drop, cuz that's what I was using, um, earlier on before I could start doing the manual again, cuz I kind of just wanted to see what, yeah, I would find, and my temperature was really quite low using the temp drop, which is, it goes underneath your armpit, which [00:21:30] is technically an accepted form of tracking B B T.

But for me it was way lower because then I started, I was like, you know, my temperatures have never been this low and I don't think I have, I feel kind of fine. I don't really think I have an issue. Yeah, yeah. And so then I started doing, uh, taking my temperature orally as well. And my temperatures were totally fine.

So just know that for assessing metabolism, really doing the [00:22:00] oral temperature is the best, and holding it in your mouth for 10 minutes before you take the reading is the recommendation to 

get the most, a long time when you're chasing little kids around . 

Well, what I personally do is, uh, well, and it's, it's gone through stages as my daughter's gotten older, but I would just, I sleep with her.

I co-sleep so, If you're doing that, then you basically just have the thermometer right next to your bed, put it in your mouth and just lay there and try not [00:22:30] to wake up the child . And then you push the button. And like sometimes the beeping would wake her up and sometimes it wouldn't. Or yeah, whatever.

And some days I would forget, you know, if she was sick or, um, You know, we had a really wacky night of sleep or whatever. Then I just let it go for that day. Yeah, it's like not the end of the world. What you're looking for with all of this stuff is a pattern, and so you're not any one individual. Data point doesn't matter outside of the [00:23:00] context of the full chart.

So if you miss a day or two, or if you have really crappy sleep, you can still write the temperature down, but then just kind of ignore it as you're assessing your overall chart. So anyway, that's, that's the first phase is tracking cervical mucus looking for this point of change after you've established your basic infertile pattern in that first three to four weeks after the LOK stops, right?

Yes. There's a lot of points. Um, and then [00:23:30] phase two is after you have your first true period. And the reason that I call it a true period is because it's not. A period, a bleed from your vagina is not necessarily a period unless it's been proceeded by ovulation. So anovulatory bleeds are very common in the postpartum phase because as your hormones are sort of figuring themselves out, again, sometimes you have enough estrogen to build up the endometrial lining, but you don't have enough progesterone or like this [00:24:00] F S H.

LH cascade of events. Yes. It doesn't fully happen. So then your progesterone levels never rise and you just have this withdrawal bleed basically, um, of just getting out the endometrial lining that your body was able to produce with the little bits of estrogen that it had, right? So if you have identified that you ovulated, and then 12 to 14 days later, Potentially less.

I'll talk about the, some of the things that can show up in the [00:24:30] cycle in just a little bit. Um, but yeah, so some number of days later, a week or two later, then you get a bleed. Then you can trust that that was a period, that's your first period and that's when you start phase two of tracking and charting your cycle.

And basically the same thing. As normal fertility awareness charting where you're tracking your cervical mucus, your B B T, potentially your cervical position as well, which is an optional sign, but the position and the texture of your [00:25:00] cervix changes in the different phases of your cycle, and it will be.

So if you've had fertility awareness method training prior to pregnancy, then you might notice that your cervix feels a little bit different. It will always be. Slightly open after you've given birth, even if you had a C-section, if you had some amount of time. Um, where your cervix was dilating, then it will be a slightly more open than prior to [00:25:30] pregnancy.

So that's just an interesting aside, but if you don't feel like sticking your fingers in your vagina, I mean, at all, you don't have to do it. And especially after you've given birth. I've only had a vaginal birth, so I don't know. If the tenderness is the same with a C-section, I would imagine it's, it's probably different.

I would 

think it would depend on what led up to it. Exactly. Like if you were laboring or not. And like, right. You know, when the C-section happened and how the baby was positioned beforehand, I'm sure that all of that would've a play. 

Yeah. [00:26:00] But I know that I felt, I can't remember exactly how long it was, but I felt very like open and vulnerable.

And tender for a long time. Yeah, not a long time, but for longer than I anticipated, so I wouldn't have probably wanted to be doing cervical position checks at that time. So just to note that, that that is the full method and that's what you would be doing in phase two. And so a lot of women notice that in the first few cycles [00:26:30] after they've given birth, their cycle will be different from what it was before.

Short Lal phase is one of the things that can happen a lot, and that is from sleep deprivation, stress, not eating enough potentially. So the lal phase is the second half of the cycle after ovulation and uh, in a healthy cycle it would be 12 to 14 days. But you can see like. You know, 7, 8, 10 days, um, of that phase, potentially you'll [00:27:00] also have a variable cycle length, potentially.

Mm-hmm. . So if you were somebody that was always like clockwork, you might notice that you'll ovulate a little bit later, earlier. And that's impacted by the things I just listed, like sleep. Yeah. Nutrition. And one other thing I wanted to mention. Which I would love to hear your perspective on this too, having, I think you have two children, right?

That you've breastfed. Yeah. Yeah. So breastfeeding for me, one of the main things that surprised me about it, my midwives were sort [00:27:30] of coaching me through, uh, my pregnancy, like to eat more basically. Yeah. I had an eating disorder and, and just had a, a lot. Challenge with right? Being in a pregnant body and just like what's gonna happen.

And it actually went a lot better than I thought it was going to, um, based on my history. But then in the postpartum, So, yeah, they're, they're sort of like, when you start breastfeeding, you're gonna have to eat a shit ton more, so you better get used to [00:28:00] it kind of thing. In a, in a very loving way. Not in the way I Right.

No. At all. 

Of course. Yeah. And I think that that's so important and I love to, the approach I've, I've seen from you. Is like the importance of nourishment, that it's not about like, you know, having a perfect diet even or whatever, but it's about meeting your body's needs for nutrition. And yes, during breastfeeding you need to eat a lot, , a lot of 

foods.

Yeah. And I, I have been a vegetarian on and off [00:28:30] pretty much since I was a teenager. Right. And I'm 37 now, and being a vegetarian does not work for my body anymore. Right. And during pregnancy I kind of like dabbled in eating meat and I didn't really want to, but since breastfeeding and my daughter's still nursing at almost three.

I just really need really good quality nutrition more than ever right now, at this time in my life. So [00:29:00] prioritizing protein, um, having a balance of all of the macronutrients and just eating a way, way more than I ever had in my life, which is emotionally and, uh, mentally, psychologically really, really hard for me.

Yeah, so without, Background, maybe it wouldn't be so hard for people, but it really surprised me cuz they're out there, it's like 500 extra calories or something like that. They say, yeah, 

it's more than you need when you're [00:29:30] pregnant. For sure. And yeah, it, I think it depends, like, I think it varies 

person to person.

I think so too. I do too. I think it depends on, This your nutritional status prior to pregnancy, what you were up to during pregnancy? Yeah. And then, yeah. Your genetics. Like so many things. Yeah. That it would be hard to track, but it really surprised me how much my body needed in order to just like, yeah.

Like maintain, [00:30:00] being able to like walk around and think about 

stuff. Yeah. I totally understand. And I think that that's like, that's a really good point to bring up and I'm so careful when I'm talk about nutrition and food because I don't like, I'm so mindful of eating disorders and I'm really mindful of what diet, culture, and even like wellness culture can do to the way that we think about food and our relationship with food and our bodies.

And I think it was on your Instagram, I saw maybe you shared to your stories or so. This quote that was something like, something about needing and appreciating like [00:30:30] evidence-based information, but then transitioning to like actually trusting your intuition. And I think that that's like a really beautiful thing and, and I, you know, it comes to mind in so many different areas.

I was just for a slight detour, I was listening to a podcast talking about, um, neurodiversity and the neurodiversity movement and you know how, um, so many of the stakeholders. I e autistic, a autistic and neurodiverse adults are not being heard. Their stories aren't being heard in the research, the [00:31:00] evidence-based research.

But then I also think of, not that I wanna go down this rabbit trail, but like even like the Covid vaccine and how, you know, there's women saying it's affecting my cycle. And they're like, no, there's no data to show that. But it was because they didn't track it. Nobody tracked it. Mm-hmm. . So I think about this when we even hear, hear like, oh, it's 500 calories like that you need.

And it's like, okay, but we like, at a certain point it's like that's a great data point to like say as k some kind of, you know, like, just like to get a sense that it's more, but like so much at the end of the day, it's your intuition and it's your body and it's [00:31:30] tuning into that that is just so, so important and that, you know, research and the numbers that we come up with and these things.

It's good. Like, they're not like evil to like to see that information or whatever, but we have to, we have to understand that like, and take it, internalize it alongside of our intuition. You know, like we can't just like look at that as some like, oh, I just have to meet this amount because I think that that just does so much harm, honestly.

So that was my little rant, but 

yeah. No, I love that. I, I really appreciate you sharing that because. [00:32:00] Well, and one of the other things, this is kind of more data related, but one of the things that that 500 extra calories doesn't account for is I don't wanna get like, yeah. I don't want to be like, well you can, you can eat like a bun, like 500 calories of like gummy bears or of bone broth and a stew or something, and it would.[00:32:30] 

It would be received by your body in a really different way, I guess is what I'm saying. Absolutely. I'm not trying to demonize anything and somebody, 

right, right. Of course. And somebody might need that 500 calories. In like carbohydrates, like maybe that's what their body is like needing right now. And somebody else might need it in protein and somebody else might need it in like, you know, avocados or like whatever, right?

Like we, that is that intuitive piece that comes alongside and none of those data points are really ever gonna speak to all of those, those variables. And you can't, I [00:33:00] think we just. , we kind of get obsessed with like optimizing our lives through like data information and just like, oh, just tell me exactly what to do.

But that's like so external, right? And we're missing this whole like, intrinsic piece of like really knowing ourselves and listening to our bodies and, and, um, I just, I truthfully, to bring it all back around, I love that the fertility awareness method facilitates that and that it's like this, this point of like coming.

To that. And actually while we're here, I would love for you to just kind of like differentiate what fertility awareness [00:33:30] method is versus what a lot of people think about when they think of like natural family, like planning and like maybe like the rhythm method or like these different things and, and how fertility awareness is ma, uh, like encompasses more and is perhaps therefore more reliable or you.

Totally so much better. Yeah. I appreciate you asking that cuz that's such a good thing to differentiate. So, um, the rhythm method to start with that. So if you talk about fertility awareness in a doctor's office, they're [00:34:00] probably gonna assume that's what you're talking about. Right? And be like, that's bullshit.

Which it is bullshit. So they're right. Um, but basically what that is, it's kind of like a calendar method. So it generally assumes that everybody has a 28 day cycle, which most people don't, and that they always ovulate at day 14, which most people don't. Exactly. So if you're somebody that. Does at this moment in your life, it's possible that your [00:34:30] body will not always be that way.

So as you get into your thirties, you might notice that your cycle changes if you're in your twenties, for example. And then the same is true once you get into your forties. Like they're, the hormone levels are sort of always shifting. Yeah. Not just based on age, but also our lifestyle and stress and travel and diet and all these different things that if you're not really paying attention to it, You wouldn't necessarily know what to attribute your cycle changes to, but a lot of people think like, oh my, [00:35:00] my period's late this month, or It came early this month, but it's not really your period that's coming late or early.

It kind of depends on when you ovulate. So that can shift and change from month to month. Personally, having tracked my cycle for. Maybe like five or six years. Really wholeheartedly. I've seen a lot of variability and my, my cycle is very sensitive, [00:35:30] so I think that, I don't think that everybody is like that, but I will say that in the postpartum phase, it can be a little bit more like that, where you're not following this clockwork pattern.

Um, maybe you do, but maybe not right away, for example. And so the rhythm method, if you are using that for birth control, for example, And you kind of have like a buffer. I'm not exactly sure how the rhythm method works. I don't know if you are only supposed to avoid unprotected sex on ovulation day itself, or if they [00:36:00] factor in the fact that you are producing cervical mucus prior to that.

So the reason that cervical mucus even matters, maybe I haven't mentioned this, but the reason that it matters is because it creates a hospitable environment for sperm. So like, so if you have unprotected. Say five days before ovulation, when your body's producing cervical mucus, you can get pregnant from that five day old sperm on ovulation day itself because your cervical mucus has kept.

That sperm [00:36:30] alive in your cervical Crips ready to roll on ovulation day, which is super cool, . Um, but if you're trying to avoid pregnancy, then not the goal, so, so I don't know that the rhythm method factors in cervical mucus at all. I just, I think, 

I think it's just the calendar's first. Well, yeah, I think if it's a calendar, but then you, you, you're supposed to like avoid it for like the whatever the five days before or whatever, like Yeah.

There is like a week where you kind of avoid sex, but it is purely based. It's, it's, [00:37:00] yeah. Like I love that you're like, People think their periods just later, early, but it's so much more complex than that. But it, I think it highlights the kind of rudimentary knowledge we have of menstruation and of our bodies and just as a whole.

Mm-hmm. and even that the doctors who are like, you know, either family doctors or like an obstetrician or a gynecologist, would think that that's the only knowledge that you have. Of your body mm-hmm. and that, that's, that's the only signs that you are basing things off of. Um, I think that that totally, that's a whole other topic, but I think it just speaks [00:37:30] to the lack of knowledge we have about our bodies.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's no fault of any individual person that doesn't know that. I mean, I know that having gone through eating disorder recovery, my period would go away all the time. I would lose my, my period due to malnutrition. It was always like, I gotta get my period back. Like I gotta, if I'm not bleeding, you know, there was never conversation really about ovulation, even amongst my [00:38:00] holistic health training.

So, Yeah, it's just really interesting the, the gap in knowledge about how women's bodies actually work. I think 

that that's like, that relates so much to breastfeeding too, right? Mm-hmm. , like, we have more published research on coffee than we do on breast milk, so it's like, you know, it's just people don't know, and that's when so many doctors, right?

Any medication that a. Person might need to go on. It's like, well, you can't do that cuz you're breastfeeding. And it's like, okay, well let's look like we, we, we do have, like, let's really think about the way that these things affect. And, and it's [00:38:30] just like the default, right? In the same sense that like, you bring up, you know, fertility awareness method and the default is like, well that doesn't work, right?

Because there's just this, this knowledge gap of like, they don't even think about it. And it's like, who would spend the time checking their cervical mucus? And yet why not? Right? Like , why not understand your body, right? To consider that people are stepping on the scale extremely regularly as a way to monitor their health, or they believe that that's a good method to monitor their health.

And that's a whole other conversation about, yeah, don't do that. Whether it is or isn't , [00:39:00] but that would be much more accepted by a doctor, right? Mm-hmm. like, it's like, oh, checking your weight very regularly, but then to check these signs that our bodies are giving us. That are very readily available to be interpreted.

You know, like why not ? Right. 

That is, that is such a great correlation. Like how many people have a scale in their house to assess their health but don't wanna Exactly. Wipe an extra time to check Cerv because it's so funny. Exactly. But it's because we [00:39:30] haven't been exposed to this information. Of course.

You know, of course. But I, I wanted to go back to natural family planning. Um, yes. Which I think, I don't know, exa it probably depends on the church, but I, I, I think natural family planning tends to have a religious. Connection and they do tend to get pretty thorough with it. Yes. So they're actually pretty great methods.

Um, and, and I don't know exactly what. And natural family [00:40:00] planning. Like what makes it exactly that as distinct from fertility awareness based Right method. It kind of is a fertility awareness based method in my, uh, what I've learned about it. So, and then there are a lot of different types of fertility awareness based methods that use different.

Assessment tools. And so the one that I've been trained in is from the Justis schools from my teacher. She has a business called Fertility Friday. Lisa Hendrickson, Jack, she's awesome. And so she [00:40:30] teaches the Justis style, which has this like really specific cervical mucus. Tracking and charting. And then also the b b t and cervical position as part of it.

There's other, like the Marquette method also adds in, right, right. Checking, um, like hormone metabolites and, um, the billings method, which I think you talked about is a mucus only method. Yeah. And there's actually a lot of other ones out there too, which I, those are just the ones I'm thinking of off [00:41:00] the top of my head, but there's actually a lot more.

So it kind of depends on you and your personality and just what you're exposed to really. I mean, I found Lisa and was just like, this is great. This is for me. I think that right. The tracking the metabolites thing sounds interesting too. Um, but I don't think it's really necessary unless there's something that's confusing about these other things.

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that that's great. And I really like what you're saying too, cuz I am [00:41:30] familiar with a, a number of different ways. Like I'm familiar the Marquette method, I am familiar with Billings method. Um, but my understanding too was like reaching up in there and checking the mucus, like by actually swiping the cervix.

And so I really appreciate that. You're like, oh, you just wiped. And I'm like, oh, that sounds so much easier. That's like, you know, um, 

reaching up in there. So is that, is that Billings that does the internal check? I 

believe it. Yes. Okay. And I believe, I believe it's like daily like you're doing or. Very regularly that you're doing internal checking.

Um, yeah, which I think [00:42:00] was when it kind of threw me off cuz I was like confusing and it seemed like a lot and you had to make sure you're getting it from the right spot. And I mean, I could be misinterpreting but that was what I remember of it. And this was probably like five or six years ago that I was like looking into it.

Um, and it just was like, this is too much . 

Well, and that's such a good, I'm glad you brought that up because. I know that Lisa in particular said that what she got confused by that method cuz it's like it's wet all the time. You know, like there's always something there. And that's been my experience too.

[00:42:30] Like it would be way more confusing. And when you do the external checks, it's very obvious. Like when you're in your fertile window, it is very obvious and the. The other aspect of that that I wanted to touch on is, um, man, it just flew outta my head, . Oh, the, for people that have discomfort with insertion, like [00:43:00] vag, Nia.

Yeah. Um, or even 

just sexual trauma from like the p like, you know, maybe it's just like an emotionally uncomfortable thing or like Yeah, 

I mean like they have applicators on tampons so that we never have to touch our vulva, our vagina. Right. And I mean, a lot of women are so removed from that area, and I mean, that's problematic for sure.

and there needs to be sort of like a Yes, a bridge to get people exactly into [00:43:30] being able to be more comfortable with their body fluids and things that are happening in their system. That's not necessarily, you know, probably some people are just like, yeah, cool. Just stick my finger in my vagina, no problem.

Like, that's personally how I feel about it, right? But I know that there were other times in my life where I did not feel that way, and I did struggle with badness and know that I would not have wanted to. Be doing any kind. Uh, you know, cervical checks at that time. For sure. 

Yeah. I think it makes so much sense.

[00:44:00] And I, I mean, even as I'm sitting here, I think about how, like, on one hand it's like, ooh, like body fluids, that's like gross. But we monitor ourselves all the time. Like, it's like, oh, like you have a cold. It's like, oh, what color is the mucus coming out of your nose? Mm-hmm. , like, that's something that you check by like bowel movements, like we're like, Even though it's gross or like, you know, whatever, we know that that's like important to watch.

Like we just intrinsically, like we were raised that way, right? Like you just know that these are the things you pay attention to. And yet it's so [00:44:30] strange to me that like our cervical fucus, our mucus and the fluids, like our, our vaginal fluids and whatnot, that we feel this far removed from it. And that it is something that's like, you know, like, oh, why would I wanna touch that?

Or why would I wanna look at that? And I think that that's, I so appreciate and like if that's coming up for anyone listening, like those kinds of feelings, like I think that that's so valid and that's like, okay, and it's not your fault. Um, but I do think that that's like just such an interesting thought of like, where are we at in society that we feel that far removed?

[00:45:00] Just, you know, like growing up , you know, and yeah. In being a woman or like being, you know, in this body that has a vagina and has a cervix and yet I don't wanna think about it or I don't wanna touch it. And that is something that we, you know, I think many people feel 

totally. I think that it's changing now, but I'm also so in this world that maybe it's just the people that I talk to, , like everybody thinks cervical mucus is awesome,

I totally, I get that so much too. Sometimes I, I [00:45:30] forget how much I am in, in my own space with people and then I say thanks, and I'm like, oh, oh, whoops. Sorry. I didn't realize that this was. Inappropriate to say in this context for all of you, , it didn't 

at all. To go back to breastfeeding too, like I saw a woman, I don't know where you stand on this, but I saw a woman breastfeeding, I don't remember exactly where it went, but like in a store and she had like a, a cover thing like over her baby.

And I mean, I was a little bit spoiled [00:46:00] maybe in like a weird way that my daughter was born. Like, pretty much when Covid started. So I spent a ton of time at home, but I never had anything like covering her. And I was just like, you're suffocating your baby. So like, so some old man can like, not be uncomfortable by seeing your nipple or something.

I don't know. It just, yeah, I just, I think about breastfeeding too, and like how, how lucky I feel that nobody has really ever said, Anything to me [00:46:30] about it, but like what bullshit it would be if they did, 

you know? Right. Oh, absolutely. I hear you. And I mean, yeah, as far as like, I used them with my daughter when I'm like, I felt like it was what I needed to do and I was, and, and I was still trying to figure it out.

But then I remember the first time I breastfed her, like uncovered in public and I. This is so freeing, . I was like, oh yeah. That's amazing. Um, and I, it, it is still, I mean, it is still jarring to see people, um, covering. [00:47:00] And yet I get it and I was there, but like in public to, cuz to me part of it is the fact that I sit in mom's homes and I mean, they're just like, I'm just looking at boobs all day long and like, you know, like it's just so normal.

So then I see them covered in public and no judgment, but it is like a little bit of startling like, oh, oh, you still feel like you have to do that? And I get it. And if you wanna do that, that is like 1000%. Like that is cool. You do you like zero, but it is still like, oh yeah, like that is the world we live in.

Where. , that's [00:47:30] still the norm and expected, and I'm in, so in my own space that I forget . 

Totally. Yeah. And yeah, no shade on anybody that does that. It's definitely, I would be, I would have a hard time with it if somebody said something to me like, oh, you're gross. Or like, I, that would, that would be uncomfortable.

And I, I don't, I'm not like calling that in, you know? Right. So I, I understand if you're somebody that. [00:48:00] Is out and about, maybe more than I am. Um, right, right. And you 

need to do that. Yeah. It's everyone's, I think it's, it's, it's comfort with your own body. It's, there's so many factors because I know moms that I work with, like they will feel the need to cover in their own home because a window might be open or because, you know, somebody might come in and I, I like.

I so understand, like I'm, I get that. Um, and I, there's no judgment at all, and I know that I once was there too. [00:48:30] And so I think that that's it. As I, it's, I forget there's a word for it that you can't remember what things were like once you've been through, like once you've kind of come to the other side that I can be very hard to put yourselves back in that truth.

And I still experience that where it's like, oh, I forget that that's what it was like. Like I don't, you know, like I've. Moved through such a long journey since then, that. Yeah, 

it's just different. It's different. Yeah. 

Totally. I feel like we should probably wrap up. I could talk for easily another hour, um, but I would just love to [00:49:00] hear, you know, maybe if you could just give like a little bit of encouragement to.

Especially as you are breastfeeding, you are almost three year old. And, um, having walked this journey of reconnecting with yourself and even through, um, you know, eating disorders and, and then learning your body and all of that, what encouragement would you give to the mom who is kind of like listening to this podcast and feeling a little overwhelmed and discouraged in mom life?

Yeah. Something you would share for them with, with them. 

[00:49:30] Well, one of the things that's been really helpful for me that I've, I didn't make this up but that I've heard from other people, is that mothering is like, the, to me feels like the highest spiritual calling. Yeah. And that your baby chooses you intentionally to be their mother.

And that means a lot to me because there's been a lot of times. Throughout my limited experience of [00:50:00] mothering where I doubt myself or you know, especially with nursing because my now ex-husband was very rude about me continuing to nurse and had opinions about me stopping, and especially related to like our sexuality and, and my desire.

To return to that, um, being related to me wanting to continue breastfeeding. [00:50:30] But I would just say that to go back to your baby choosing you, they chose you because they, they wanted the, the journey that you're going to offer them and you know what's best for your baby. So you can read. All the stuff on Instagram and blogs and books, and you can talk to lots of other moms.

You can talk to family members, partners, [00:51:00] but I really think that. Mommys know the best. 

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for being here, Holly. It was such a pleasure. And um, I cannot wait to have you on again cuz I feel like there's so many more things we can talk about . 

Totally. I agree. Thank you so much for having me.

I appreciate it. Oh, 

you're so welcome.