BONUS: Is saying "no" to a breastfeed HARMING your child? A conversation with Samantha Radford, Phd (Evidence-Based Mommy Podcast)

Have you ever worried that boundaries around breastfeeding might be wrong or inappropriate? 

It can feel like you are caught between 2 worlds: 

• One where sleep training is the norm, and breastfeeding beyond 6 or 12 months is said to be "more for the mom than the baby" 
• And another where "surrendering" to your child's needs is the ONLY way to parent, and refusing a feed for any reason is inherently problematic. 

But what if there is a third option? 

In this bonus episode, I sit down with my friend and colleague, Samantha Radford to talk about this nuanced subject with grace, humility, and humor. 

Grab your free guide to say "No" to the feed while still saying "yes" to the need at  www.ownyourparentingstory.com/guide

Love this episode?!  Shoot me a DM over on Instagram @own.your.parenting.story and tell me all about it. <3

Transcript

] In this very special episode of Start to Stop Toddler Breastfeeding, I sit down with Samantha Radford, who is not only a PhD chemist and public health expert, but a MAMA four. She is the founder of Evidence-Based Mommy and the host of the Evidence-Based Mommy podcast, as well as the host of Breastfeeding Beyond Babyhood.

[00:00:20] Yeah, she is the brains behind that amazing event, which is happening soon. If you haven't already heard, you can grab your free. At the link in the [00:00:30] show notes, but for this conversation, Sam invited me to sit down and talk about boundaries and whether or not they cause harm to our kids, particularly when we're talking about boundaries around breastfeeding.

[00:00:42] It's a very nuanced and fun conversation I think you'll really enjoy, and it's a great way to kick off the breastfeeding beyond Babyhood summit season. So come along, enjoy and, uh, yeah, let me know what you think,

[00:00:59] what we're [00:01:00] talking about. Of course, we're, we're. Starting breastfeeding beyond babyhood, um, April 24th through 28th, and it's all about supporting and celebrating moms in their breastfeeding or chest feeding journey. And I've always said that I want it to be about like, All parts of that, particularly breastfeeding past the first year.

[00:01:22] But I want to cover all of that. Like I wanna cover the people who, you know, maybe they're kind of, their baby's more at like nine [00:01:30] months and they're like, I don't know, like, can I even nurse past the first year? Because I've never seen that done before. But I also wanna help the people who are like, you know, I've been breastfeeding for two or three years.

[00:01:43] And it's great, but also it's just driving me insane and like, I want to stop so bad because there are happy mediums. A lot of times we feel like the only options are either, you know, breastfeed forever and ever, or just like cold Turkey [00:02:00] ween and that's not true. And anyways, I wanted to talk to Jenna about that.

[00:02:09] Yeah, like I think that it's, it's, you know, we've both. I think experienced, like in our breastfeeding journeys, um, moving through those pieces of starting with like, can I even go past this? And we're like this point and we're like looking for the information and um, and I think that just the culture we live in.

[00:02:28] I don't think, I mean, [00:02:30] maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that there's that many women that hit, um, the nine, 10 months of breastfeeding and, um, feel super confident that they're just gonna keep going and that there's no, like, I feel like most people hit like a spot where they're like, I don't know, because it feels very strange and kind of rare to breastfeed past that point.

[00:02:48] So I think we all like come up with those questions and then we turn and we're looking at resources and we're like, mm-hmm can I do this? Can I, you know, I remember like being in the Facebook groups and like, Moms and finding these kind of little pockets of the [00:03:00] internet that were really kind of focused on, like attachment parenting and, you know, understanding the biological norms of, you know, infant sleep and breastfeeding into toddlerhood.

[00:03:11] And I was like, whoa. You know? Yeah. A whole new world. Yeah. And then you're kinda left and you're like, okay, cool. Like I can keep going and I got this and it's normal. And then you hit this point where you're. Okay. That only served me so far. Yes. What does the, what does the next piece look like? Right. Yeah.

[00:03:29] [00:03:30] And I mean, it's been really interesting because I've been talking to people all over the United States and outside the United States, you know, Jennas and Canada. Yeah. Um, about breastfeeding beyond babyhood and what a great resource it is and, you know, love to have them join us. And most, most all the feedback I've gotten has been great, but I've had just a few people who were very, very concerned.

[00:03:57] Concerned is the nice word, um, [00:04:00] about the fact that I discuss night weaning and that Jen and I discuss, you know, setting gentle boundaries and they tell me things like, you know, night weaning is always inappropriate. And they tell me it is never appropriate to set boundaries on when a child can eat. And I don't, there's gotta be something better than just Yeah.

[00:04:19] Always and never. Yeah. And that's, I talk about that a ton. Like there's this kind of like tension we feel between, um, tough love [00:04:30] mm-hmm. Where we're like, Nope, this is it. And then this tough it out where it's like, I have this experience, but I just have to tough it out. And what I see over and over and over again is that in the breastfeeding space, There's a lot of understanding about biological norms and about infant sleep and about, um, the benefits of breastfeeding, and that's beautiful and amazing, but we're missing understanding of attachment theory and nervous [00:05:00] system regulation, and.

[00:05:02] Parenting, which I feel like as both a certified pure joy parent coach, and a certified lactation counselor, I can re I really see from both of those lenses. Um, and I, I'm just a psychology nut, so I love that stuff too. But the problem is that when we're so focused, and I get it because there has been a long time where children's needs.

[00:05:24] And understanding them and being developmentally appropriate was, you know, not the norm. [00:05:30] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean lots like the cry it out and all that kind of stuff that's like, stick 'em in the room at eight weeks and let 'em stay there all night. Like that's not, that's not okay. Exactly. Right.

[00:05:41] Exactly. And so I think that, but what we're missing is this understanding that, um, children and like the parent and. Um, baby are not just in this breastfeeding diet, which they are, and we understand that breastfeeding diet of like, you know, the child's hunger and thirst cues and the parents [00:06:00] supply and demand and that they're kind of like speaking to each other.

[00:06:02] There's this conversation happening in the breastfeeding relationship. Mm-hmm. But they're also in an attachment diya. Mm-hmm. And so in an attachment, your. The children, if by breastfeeding they are borrowing essentially, or like relying on the parent's immune system, right? Because a child immune system is not fully developed until somewhere between ages two and seven.

[00:06:24] It varies on the child and the circumstances, but they're borrowing the parent's immune system while they're still [00:06:30] breastfeeding during that time and they're borrowing that the parents like literally calories. Vitamins and all, you know, like all those things, they're kinda like, they're, you're intertwined in a way that cannot really be easily disentangled.

[00:06:43] You can't really separate those things. Mm-hmm. But they're also doing that with our brains because a, an emotion brain. Exactly. Exactly. Nervous system. Tell us, this is more your, tell us all about it. Yeah. When a baby is born, they're born with their brain. [00:07:00] 25% develop. And, um, in the first year, it doubles to 50% developed.

[00:07:06] So that's a ton of development that's happening in that first year. And then by age somewhere between ages five to seven. And then with Neurodiverse kids, it can be more like seven to nine. But there's this kind of shift that happens where they move from that 50% mark at a year to 90% mark. So in the first five to seven years, potentially up to nine years of life, a.

[00:07:25] Brain is doing this massive explosion of growth, [00:07:30] right? A child has more, um, like, uh, more neural pathways in their brain at two years old than they will at any other time in their life. So it's very Right. You develop them all, and then you call them then the, yeah. There's pruning, right? That happen? Yeah.

[00:07:44] Yeah, yeah. So the most effective ones are being like, Right. Reinforced. So Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They're, those are ones that are being reinforced and then the ones that aren't just not important die off, which sounds kind of like awful, but what's happening is it's actually just creating the brain much to be much, much more efficient.

[00:07:59] Right. [00:08:00] So it's really cute once you kind of understand that you can see your two-year-old and how long it takes them to process like a question, like you can ask them a question and you're getting impatient, but it's actually because it takes 'em a long time to process that information. And so like 30 seconds later, Blueberry and you're like, I asked you what you wanted.

[00:08:18] Like, I can't handle this. Right. Like, but really they're, it's taking a long time to process that information. Um, so it, it's a good thing that it gets more [00:08:30] effective and more efficient. And then of course, that last 10% doesn't finish developing until your mid twenties. Um, and then of course we also understand.

[00:08:38] More modern research into neuroplasticity that your brain can continue to change and shift for the lifetime. But here's what's important about that, is that the last pieces to grow in the like and to develop in the brain are the ones around decision making and morality and regulation. Being able to make conscious [00:09:00] choices and um, you know, like a child doesn't de develop impulse control until ages, like, Four-ish, and then that's just beginning.

[00:09:08] So like it takes a while after that. So the whole point to this is that it's not just that your child's brain is just unfolding over time, that it's just happening in this vacuum where they're just developing. They are borrowing. From your nervous system regulation, you are their outside brain in the same way that you're their outside [00:09:30] immune system and you're their outside, you know, like support for all of these other pieces in the breastfeeding diet, but you are their outside brain.

[00:09:37] So what does this mean? It means that your needs and you being regulated and you being taken care of is hair amount to your child's development. It means that you can wake up all night every single night with them and breastfeed them and still not have a secure relationship with them and still not have a secure attachment at the end of the day.

[00:09:58] Because if you are doing [00:10:00] it, even if externally you are staying calm and you're doing all these things, there is neuroception happening there. Acutely aware of the nuances of your body and your physiology and even your breast milk, cortisol levels, all of these things Oh, that's true. Are affecting their nervous system regulation over time.

[00:10:21] So I, I think that that can scare a lot of parents because I know so many want to give their child the. Best start in life, and that's why they've chosen to [00:10:30] breastfeed. But there can be a lot of, um, like fear a lot. So many of us have had difficulties in our childhood that we don't wanna repeat, right? We don't wanna be, we don't wanna parent the way that we were parented, even if we can acknowledge that our parents were doing the absolute best they could.

[00:10:45] And so when you hear, uh oh, I have to do more than just breastfeed, it can feel very alarming and scary. And that can, that can like be very stressful and scary. And so I think that, you know, if [00:11:00] when we have this rhetoric or this idea that. Putting boundaries around our child, um, is, is never appropriate.

[00:11:08] And that, you know, setting limits around when our child feeds is never appropriate. It creates this like real tension inside of us and it's like, okay, I just have to sacrifice all of my needs. And I, I know like Lache League and I love their stuff, so don't. Don't get me wrong, but like there's mm-hmm. You know, there's a lot of talk of surrendering, right?

[00:11:24] Like surrendering to your child's needs and to the moment right now and just being [00:11:30] present and okay, like, you know, this isn't gonna last forever. But then I think a lot of us hit that two, three year mark and the idea of this two shall pass is like, what? When like, okay. Um, yeah. Just kinda like coming back around.

[00:11:47] I, I think that it does a disservice to moms and to babies when we say that, um, you know, like it's never appropriate to, to do those things [00:12:00] because we don't know what's actually happening in that relationship. We don't know what the mom's stress level is. We're ignoring all of her needs. We're ignoring everything that's happening there.

[00:12:09] And it doesn't mean that we need to trade mom's needs for baby's needs. But when we meet mom's needs, we are meeting baby's needs. Um, so what I see happen a ton is that I call it the breastfeeding stress cycle. So mom's feeling stressed out and so. [00:12:30] The child is picking up on that. Mm-hmm. And it actually needs, so because they need that, they want to breastfeed because they're stressed, because they see the monstress that worries them.

[00:12:39] So come here and then that I, I can feel it like right now, you know, like, that must mean then like, oh God, I just please get off of me. But you're trying not to. Yeah. So you're trying, but you're still tense and they can feel that and that cycle. Yeah. Gosh, that's like exactly me with my first daughter. God love her.

[00:12:57] Um, Yeah. Yeah. And [00:13:00] I, I mean, and that's exactly what I, when I did decide, and she was about two and a half when I was like, I need to Wean her. I was starting to resent her, like it was damaging our relationship because my aversion was so intense and I didn't have the tools, you know, of course at that time.

[00:13:16] Um, but that was the best thing for us, and it's really scary when you're sitting. On, you know, the side where you're still nursing and you're like, what's gonna happen? Like, what's gonna happen to our relationship? [00:13:30] If I Wean, but you come through it and you don't know till you've done it, you know? But you come through it and you're like, okay, we're still okay.

[00:13:38] In that case, we were better. That's not necessarily like always, you know? But for us, that's how it was. I wanna share this quick story the other day. So I was sharing with you, Sam, before that I had kind of like an injury to my jaw and I've been having really bad headaches and not sleeping well and it's been very stressful.

[00:13:56] And you know, I have a D H D and I've dealt [00:14:00] with. A lot of like beliefs that I've picked up about myself. So like that I'm lazy and you know, all these things. So in this, my husband's been working more and I've been basically at home with my two kids. So my house was destroyed. So I was feeling this level of stress building and building, and then my kids and I couldn't, like, I haven't been able to grocery shop or meal plan.

[00:14:21] It was just very stressful, right? Mm-hmm. So my kids started. Fighting and I had the morning, had it had been growing. The stress, the stress, and my kids were fighting and [00:14:30] arguing. Of course, I'm a parent coach. I have the tools, I know how to support them, but I did not have the capacity at that moment. Right.

[00:14:36] Oh, sure. So eventually I screamed. Very loudly, very harshly, way more than I ever would want to, and I immediately felt this huge wave of guilt, this huge intensity that like came and I, I, all I wanted to do was just go and apologize, but not like, Confidently be like, I'm sorry I did that. More Like, I'm so [00:15:00] sorry.

[00:15:00] I'm so sorry that that's a bad mom. And I know it just beat myself up. Right? Yes. So I did that for like half a second with my son, cuz he was crying. He was crying because his sister did something to him or took his toy away or whatever it was. Mm-hmm. So he was crying. So then I, of course I'm just like, this is all about me and that's how I'm perceiving it all.

[00:15:19] Mm-hmm. So I take a moment, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna check this out. So I go over to him and I was like, Hey. Are you feeling scared? And he's like, no. [00:15:30] Okay. Are you cry? Are you crying because I scared you? No. And I was like, well, why are you crying? Cause Nora took my toy. Like that was why he was crying. Not even about you.

[00:15:39] Did mommy, did mommy scare you? Nope. I talked to my daughter. Nope. The crazy thing was, is that I actually needed to scream. No. Okay. It could have come out, that release could have come out in a million ways, but once I did, I felt a lot better cause the stress had been building. Would I recommend [00:16:00] using screaming as a way to release that?

[00:16:02] No, I would not. However, I don't regret it. I don't regret it at all. And it didn't affect my kids. They did not care. Now I understand what scaring children can do to them, right? Mm-hmm. And in my mind, screaming like that was scary. But it was actually scary for me because of the beliefs I had. Because of all those things.

[00:16:23] It actually was lack of feeling could control and, exactly. Yeah. And so the reason I share that is that. [00:16:30] We don't like, we can have these ideas that weening will mean this. Right? Mm-hmm. That like that. If I, if I set these boundaries, it's gonna mean nice and there's gonna be affected in this way, and that can be good or bad.

[00:16:42] We could believe, well, everything's just gonna get better once I Wean. Right. And that's not always the case. That's true. Sometimes you do the gentle weaning at the night, weaning, and your kids still wake up over the night, and now you have That's true. Breastfeeding as a tool to support them to sleep.

[00:16:55] Right? Yeah. And other. You think weaning is gonna just destroy your [00:17:00] relationship, then you find out that it's actually better in the end. Right? So what I think that we're missing when we have this really black and white thinking about, like, this is always inappropriate and this is like never okay. And you know, we're missing just the, the reality of messy humans and where people truly.

[00:17:19] And we can't just paint everybody with the same brush. So we're actually missing the, the true root needs that are happening because if there is, if somebody's not feeling [00:17:30] okay, then there's a, a need that's not being met. Right. And so you cannot, you cannot fix the problem without addressing the need underneath for mom or for child.

[00:17:40] Right. And especially once they're, I mean, not even especially, but once they're toddlers, It's very rarely about food or drink. It is usually about connection. So yeah, you can still connect without necessarily nursing in that moment. Yeah, so I have like a, [00:18:00] like it can be emotional needs. So like feeling that comfort, feeling, that connection.

[00:18:05] It can be like attachment needs where, mm-hmm. And I, I just differentiate those because attachment needs, I consider more like proximity, um, to the parent feeling, um, seen, heard and understood. Like that feeling like their inner world is, um, acknowledged. Like they're not alone in that. Right? So there can be, and then also sensory regulation, like there, there can be, um, sensory needs.

[00:18:28] Sometimes kids are waking up a lot at [00:18:30] night. Um, because. Their body is having a hard time regulating. And, and that can be, I know kids who have breathing issues and so the parents night Wean, but they don't realize that their kid's waking a lot because of, you know, some breathing issues that need to be addressed.

[00:18:44] And I support parents with that all the time. I'm like, your three-year-old should not be waking every two hours overnight. Like that's not about breastfeeding, that's not about behaviors. There's something medical going on here that we need to look at. Right. So there can be those needs, right. Um, there can be hunger and thirst.

[00:18:59] Sometimes [00:19:00] they, my son will, sometimes he's just keeps waking up to breastfeed and I'm like, buddy, do you need some water? Yeah, I need some water. And then, He sleeps like, no problem. Right. So like, oh, ok. Sometimes it can be that too, where it's like, oh, the, the room was just dry and in his sleepy state he was just asking for a drink.

[00:19:16] Right? Right. So there can be like this whole host of needs and parents needs, right? Because sometimes the baby is happily waking two times a night, baby child, toddler, happily waking two times a night. Their needs are being fully satisfied [00:19:30] at the breast, there's not a problem there at all. The needs that need to be met are the.

[00:19:34] You know, because she's, maybe she's not getting enough sleep. Maybe, and there could maybe that sleep comes in a different way and the night waking still stays. Like maybe we can support mom. Maybe it's easier to just support her to adjust her schedule so that she's getting more sleep. Go to bed earlier.

[00:19:50] Yeah, if possible. Yeah, just, yeah. Or you know, if you're at home, I know like for the first three kids, I worked away from home, so I know this isn't viable for a lot of [00:20:00] people. But if you can take a nap in the day, you know. Yeah, I just mean that there's, there's, there's always, if somebody, if it doesn't feel good, then there's a need that's not being met.

[00:20:09] So like, let's look at those needs. Let's look at mom's needs. Let's look at baby's needs and let's find a way to meet both of them without sacrificing one for the other. Yes. So in that situation, you could, we night ween, you'll need to meet your, the child's needs in another way. We can meet mom's needs without having to mess around with kids' needs if their needs are being met.

[00:20:28] So I just, [00:20:30] again, I just think that it's really, really harmful to just put the, these blanket statements like it's never okay and never appropriate to, you know, X, Y, Z. And that's just moving back to the beginning when. You know, we're looking at breastfeeding past a year and we're doing those things and we're doing that research.

[00:20:47] I know myself in the Facebook groups, you know, looking around and moms that had breastfed a lot longer than me. I'm looking up to them for that support and for that wisdom, and they're saying things. I [00:21:00] absolutely read these things was like, there is no way to. Gently Wean, a toddler like period. There's no way to gently Wean that.

[00:21:08] It's always gonna be traumatic or always gonna be harsh if you Wean your child. That was like messages that I was reading, and at first I believed them, thankfully, like, and, and truthfully believing that caused way more stress because I wasn't meeting my needs. I just thought that I had to surrender, that I could not do anything else.

[00:21:26] And sometimes what I find and what I talk about [00:21:30] is that, Breastfeeding is like the very first way that your child like ha, like the only tool they have to get their needs met. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like they can only cry and root. Right. Like and latch. That's, that's it. Right. And I, what I find, and we talk about that brain development and, and I should say too, that that brain development that happens is not linear at all.

[00:21:53] So it's not. One thing develops and then that that thing is just developed and it stays perfect and that's there. It's not like [00:22:00] that at all. It's constantly moving around. It's very messy, very organic. And they could gain a skill and then lose that skill and then gain a skill and then lose that skill.

[00:22:09] They could do something one day that they struggle with the next day. Um, and you know that. That's all like normal. But what happens I find, is that when they're stressed out, they lose those newer skills. So that means even if they've gained capacity to meet their needs in more sophisticated ways, when they're stressed out, [00:22:30] they're likely going to revert back to that kind of primary way that they've always known that most rudimentary fundamental way to get their needs met, which is breastfeeding.

[00:22:40] So, A lot of times what I find is that when a child's breastfeeding very frequently, there's something stressing them out. Mm-hmm. There's, there's stress there. And so to say that, you know, you can never put limits or boundaries or that you just, it's, it's inappropriate to, um, [00:23:00] To not just always feed, just always be available for them whenever they need.

[00:23:04] Right. That idea of don't offer, don't refuse, like never refuse. Well, we're actually missing some really important cues from our child cause they need to learn some, some of those other skills. That's a great opportunity to teach them some little like kid appropriate mindfulness skills or whatever. Yeah.

[00:23:21] And I would say that if they're breastfeeding all the time, there's likely a reason. Like there's likely something going on that is [00:23:30] like, that needs to be addressed. There's likely some stress, and a lot of times that stress is actually just being picked up from the parents, from the environment, from other things that are going on.

[00:23:40] And so it really does come back to supporting yourself. But if we just start to automatically put boundaries around without considering the needs that are underneath. That's a problem, right? Like we're not, it's not gonna be effective. Um, but if at this, by the same token, if we just are constantly just like, okay, just breastfeed whenever you want.

[00:23:58] Um, and [00:24:00] especially if that's building resentment or our needs are going unmet because of it, we're also doing your childhood disservice. Cuz we're not picking up on that cue of like, Hey, you can, like, there's a lot of other things, there's a lot of other skills. I mean, maybe they're. Like, maybe they need some support in that and like medically, you know, maybe there's, especially if they're a little bit older, maybe they're in daycare or preschool and something's going on, or you know, like we're missing cues from our kids.

[00:24:25] That could be really important. And I think when we have these lenses [00:24:30] on that are like these beliefs that, that are really black and white and these kind of blanket we we're losing touch with like these in the moment. Um, experiences that we're having and these in the moment cues of these needs and we're kind of like projecting onto it what, what it could mean or you know, it's like, oh, anytime my child breastfeeds and it's always because they're hungry and I should never, ever limit their hunger or like limit their access to food when they're hungry.

[00:24:55] So like, of course you can breastfeed all the time. It's kind of this black and white thing and we're not [00:25:00] willing to be in the moment with the nuance and say, Hey, what's happening? Um, which is like attunement, which is critical. Create secure attachment. We have to be able to attune to what they're really experiencing, what's happening for them in the moment, and then be that outside brain for them to be able to help them work through it and support them through it.

[00:25:18] Um, yeah, I feel like I'm rambling a lot, but I get really passionate about this too, so. Yeah. Well, and I mean, when you are stressed and don't have a way to do anything about it, there's no way you can be attuned to someone else. [00:25:30] Yeah. You know, you can like go through the motions, like you said, and just like submit to nursing or.

[00:25:37] Whatever, but you can't like do the real connection to figure out what's going on cuz you're in such like emergency state. Yeah, and that's, I mean, that is like, I have my course on your breastfeeding story and that is literally the work that I support parents through in that course is like, Creating the capacity for you to, to do all the things that [00:26:00] you need to do inside of yourself and, and then externally too, so that you can be present with your kids.

[00:26:05] Like I don't talk about your child's needs until like right near the end of the course because I can tell you all about the needs that they have. I can teach you how to meet those needs, but if you are not taking care of. You're going to see the wrong need. You're not gonna be able to see what's actually there and in front of you because of all of the stories that you have in your head, which is literally why I call it own your parenting story and own your breastfeeding story.

[00:26:29] Because [00:26:30] these stories and these narratives, um, will dictate our. Behaviors and whether, you know, and, and the way that we see the world and how we show up with our kids. Um, and it's as scary as it sounds like the, the repercussions, right? Of not being present and of not being attuned with our kids. Um, it's actually pretty simple because it's really about just showing up for yourself first and then.

[00:26:54] Flows very naturally and easily from that place. And as scary and tough as that is once [00:27:00] you're able to do it, I don't even end up having to teach parents a lot of the, um, like kind of actual practical skills of meeting their kids' needs because once they can see them like. Like authentically in themselves.

[00:27:14] Parents know how to parent, like inside of themselves. Like they're able to show up for their kids and they create better tools and tips and tricks than I could for them. They just like, it's all inside. It's there, you know? Um, That's cool. So yeah, I feel like, yeah, I [00:27:30] think so. Um, and it's really, it's pretty crazy to watch it unfold, um, with clients.

[00:27:35] And sometimes I'm sitting on pins and needles, like, is it actually gonna work this time? Like, maybe this is the one time where like, I need to jump in and save them. And then before you know it, like, it's like they have this beautiful story unfolding that I could have never, never, ever, um, created for them.

[00:27:53] And it's, it is, it's really beautiful. Yeah, it's lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for talking [00:28:00] to me today about all of like, this is so great and it's, it's so wonderful to be able to talk about that there is nuance to this conversation that we are allowed to set limits and take care of ourselves.

[00:28:12] Yeah. While also taking care of our child. So thank you for that reassurance. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's like, that is really the takeaway that we don't have to, cause it can feel like we're straddling this, this line between being this like attachment parent and you know, being so [00:28:30] good at seeing our children's needs and taking care of them.

[00:28:33] And then there's this other side where it's like, oh, actually none of that matters. And if it's making you miserable, just stop and you know, like blah, blah, blah. Your needs matter and you're important. And which is not like, and both sides are right. And we can do both of them together, right? Like it's not, we don't have to vilify one or the other.

[00:28:51] There's actually different way where we see those needs as really deeply intertwined. And I think that part of that too is just like I was saying with the own, own your [00:29:00] story, it's moving from that place of looking externally to get all of the wisdom and all of the support. That's what Lit makes you feel like you're being torn in two because you're feeling like you just have to trust Who do I trust?

[00:29:11] Right. But really that wisdom comes from inside of you and you do know the pathway forward. Um, you just need some support to kind of. Untangle, you know, all of those, those things that have kind of crept in. Yeah. And we've got support for that all week from the 24th through the 28th that breastfeeding beyond [00:29:30] babyhood.

[00:29:30] We've got so many amazing speakers with all different stories and all different ways to help and I'm super excited. Of course, Jenna's one of those amazing speakers. Um, so we will see you there. Yeah. And I should just say I attended the conference as a, as a yes. A regular attendee the first year. And, uh, it was incredible.

[00:29:51] So I really hope that you can all have a very similar experience to me. Yes, I love it. Yeah, so Jenna came the first [00:30:00] year and she, you know, commented in the group, like how great it was. And I remembered her. And then I saw that, you know, she had started, she had gotten her lactation counselor certification and I was like, do you wanna join us?

[00:30:11] And here we. I love it, so thank you so much. I know. Awesome.