14: Extended Nursing In Real Life - Erin Harris' Story 4.5 years of nursing (Nursing Mamas)

I sit down with veteran nursing mom and virtual lactation educator, Erin Harris, to talk about her personal breastfeeding journey, the struggles that extended breastfeeding moms face, and how we can navigate them while keeping the bond and ditching the burnout.

Erin is a virtual lactation educator and creator of Nursing Mamas. She combines her two Master's Degrees in Health and Family communication, lactation knowledge, and personal nursing experience to focus on the parent-toddler nursing relationship. Through online courses and consults she helps extended breastfeeding women who aren't ready to wean, but are feeling overwhelmed by on-demand nursing and are ready to set breastfeeding boundaries so they can keep the bond without the burnout. She lives in Costa Mesa, CA with her husband Scott, daughter, Avery, and son, Luca, and is a veteran nursing mama of 4 ½ years.

Erin's  3 Day Seminar -  The Extended Breastfeeding Workshop.
https://www.nursingmamas.com/extendedbreastfeedingworkshop
IG: @erin.nursingmamas
Website: https://www.nursingmamas.com/

Grab your free guide to say "No" to the feed while still saying "yes" to the need at  www.ownyourparentingstory.com/guide

Love this episode?!  Shoot me a DM over on Instagram @own.your.parenting.story and tell me all about it. <3

Transcript

audio1812541414

[00:00:00] In this week's breastfeeding in real life interview, I interview Erin Harris. Erin breastfed her daughter for four and a half years, including some, some of that time tandem feeding with her son. Erin is not only a mama who has had personal experience with breastfeeding, but she is also a virtual lactation educator herself.

[00:00:24] And she specializes, you guessed it, in toddler breastfeeding. There are not that many of [00:00:30] us out there. And when I saw Erin and I saw her content, I knew that we needed to connect. Um, there's just so few of us in this space and it was just really important for me to build that relationship so that we could support mama's even better.

[00:00:46] So I'm really excited. Erin has two master's degrees in health and family communications. She's the creator of Nursing Mamas. She really combines her professional experience, her personal experience, um, and all of [00:01:00] her education to support parent toddler nursing relationships. She has online courses and consults, and she supports breastfeeding moms, um, who are breastfeeding toddlers and older kids who aren't ready to Wean necessarily, but are feeling really overwhelmed by on-demand nursing, and they're ready to set some boundaries so that they can, you know, continue without the burnout.

[00:01:24] So she lives in California with her husband Scott, her daughter Avery, and her [00:01:30] son Luca. A as always, this is a wonderful talk and I'm super excited for you to have a listen.

[00:01:40] So, Erin, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. I have been so excited to talk to you, and what I'm really excited to hear from you is really your story, um, of breastfeeding. Of breastfeeding your daughter till she was like, what, four and a half? Is that right? Yeah, yeah. She was [00:02:00] four and a half.

[00:02:01] And, um, yeah, but it was a long journey. I still can't believe that because our kids are around the same age. So I, I know the reference point of how long you've been nursing and it is also weird thinking like I still nursed her more of her life than I haven't. Yeah. Um, which is crazy cuz she's about six and a half now.

[00:02:22] Um, I think just to give a reference to where I'm, I am now to then go back to where I [00:02:30] was totally, I currently, like you, I, I'm a lactation educator and I focus on extended nursing and I didn't go into lactation solely for that. But the more I talk to people and the more experience that I had, the more this is where my heart was because that was my experience.

[00:02:50] Um, so going back to the beginning, I knew I wanted to, to breastfeed, and I am a studious person, and took the [00:03:00] hospital class and I took the, um, a doula class and I was like, I got this. I know what I'm doing, and I'm nodding along because yes, my story too, yes, like this is, this will be easy. I watched all the documentaries and was like, well, I clearly need to have like a non-medicated birth so that breastfeeding isn't affected.

[00:03:23] Managed to do that, like successfully birthed my daughter vaginally with an un medicated birth [00:03:30] using hypno babies. And then the first latch came and I'm large, trusted. They didn't talk about. Like the only type of talk about holding was like over the clothes with a doll in front of a bunch of dads. And I was like, this is in hindsight, like, well, this wasn't enough.

[00:03:49] But yeah, like my doula, my doula was there and we, my nipples were totally flat. And she looked at my husband after like a 19 hour overnight delivery and she said, go [00:04:00] to Target and get a nipple shield. I'm like, what's a nipple shield? And that um, you know, that's how it all started. And we had a ton of problems latching.

[00:04:09] She was super tired, baby. Um, And a lot of pain cracked nipples, all of it. And I had called the milk line at like day four, three, maybe day three. My, my milk hadn't come in yet and they yelled at me. The hospital nurse lactation line said, you, she is probably starving. You need, [00:04:30] she's probably jaundice. You need to go to target and get formula and have me write down the formula.

[00:04:35] And like, I stood up and just started bawling. Of course you did. Yeah. And it was, that was the moment of like trauma and just like thinking this is natural and everything. And it wasn't, it was really, really hard. But fortunately, I still had my doula that I could contact and she sent over a postpartum doula who could help with [00:05:00] lactation.

[00:05:00] And that woman was my miracle. She came, you know, a few days for a few hours. But without her, I would not have this story because she eased my concerns. She helped me listen for the gulping. All of the little things that, especially here in the US were missing completely from our health. Um Oh yeah. Helped in Canada too.

[00:05:26] Wink wink. Yeah. And most to the world, unfortunately. [00:05:30] Yeah. And so the first few months honestly were, were very rough. And basically right when I had started getting a little bit easier, I went back to work at nine weeks. Yeah. And so that whole thing was really intense, but we made it through. And as she got more head control and got stronger, you know, it got a little bit easier.

[00:05:54] And um, we just kind of trucked through that first year. And [00:06:00] she got, was really great with food and that's a whole mis like, I thought, okay, you get to six months and then they switched to food. Nice. And you're like, wait, no. Now I have six months of still nursing her all the time and making meals for her all the time.

[00:06:17] Like, this is insane. Yeah. And we got to, I remember being very close to a year and I went to like a, a mom group thing and was like crying because I thought that, [00:06:30] I had to stop at a year. I was like, A year is coming and I'm not ready. Yeah, it was my goal to hit a year, but I was like, but I'm, she's not done.

[00:06:38] I'm not done. And they were like, well just keep going then. So we did, and that around a year I started weaning from the pump. Like, so I just, when I was working our way from her, I didn't pump and that was the magic point. That's when nursing to me was a, it was a game changer. I was like, I could do this forever because it was just a [00:07:00] snuggle, you know?

[00:07:01] And she was so sweet and little still. And so that one to two year was fantastic. And, uh, very similar to other stories I hear. She went to daycare, got sick, and I was so happy that I still had that tool because a couple of times she was so sick. With the flu. She couldn't even keep down water and really did regress to pretty much just nursing for a couple days because she was, she [00:07:30] literally couldn't keep anything down and I was so happy that I had made that decision.

[00:07:34] Yeah. And so the bar kind of kept moving. I was like, well, maybe I'll stop when she gets her teeth because teething, right. Like it's a teething tool. And then she got all her teeth and her molars, her two year molars. I'm like, well, maybe we'll just keep going. And I, I kind of, you know, took the pressure off that, that idea.

[00:07:56] Um, just after she turned two, or [00:08:00] pretty quickly after I got pregnant again. And I knew pretty quickly that I wanted to try to tandem nurse because. Quite honestly, she's a very, um, needy child of my attention. And because she was so old and still nursing, I knew that she would remember and be resentful of the baby getting me Yeah.

[00:08:24] And my milk if I told her no. So I had full intention to keep going. My [00:08:30] milk actually dried up in the second trimester. And part of, I think also allowing myself to not fully implode with thinking that our nursing was over, um, I would tell her the milk will come back with the baby. The baby's bringing the milk back, and then you can have milk again.

[00:08:50] And so, um, when baby came. We started to try to, well first of all, he latched beautifully. I was like, my goal is to [00:09:00] not need a nipple shield and to not pump. So I took more time off work and she, I was like, she can be my pump. She can drop the nipple if not need, be like, I'm not using a pump. And more to that story, because that did not go as planned.

[00:09:16] Um, yeah, but she, when she started l trying to latch again, she actually had forgotten, initially had to latch. And so I thought, okay, like I guess it's not gonna happen this way. And I just let her kind [00:09:30] of be like a dish on my nipple. Like she just wouldn't know what to do until all of a sudden one day she did and she got started getting milk.

[00:09:39] Then she was like off to the races. She wanted it. All the time. I guess I should step back a little bit and talk about like that one to two year kind of mark. It was really nice and manageable too, because it was only a few times a day. You know, we would, in the morning, sometimes, not even in the morning if I left before she woke up, and then when I'd [00:10:00] pick her up from school, or if she was home on the weekend, it would be nap time, bedtime, if she got hurt or anything like that.

[00:10:07] Right. You know, there'd be extra, but it was very manageable. But once Baby came, her brother, she wanted it as much as him and that became very, very unmanageable. And so I remembered one day just saying like, okay, no, you get it three times a day. And I hadn't really put much thought into it. I just said three.

[00:10:27] I was like three times a day, morning [00:10:30] nap and bedtime. And she just was like, okay. And. That that shifted it. And so a lot of the tantruming, a lot of the upset and demanding kind of went away. And I know not all kids benefit or do Right. Well with that. She really, really does work well with rules set in place, clear rules.

[00:10:48] And so that was a game changer. And I thought, okay, I can do this for a long time. Well then my son had other plan. He at four months was just like, [00:11:00] I'm done with you. I don't want to nurse anymore. And I had heard people talk about that when I be before I had him. Right. And I had only had the experience of my daughter who literally loved nothing more than nursing.

[00:11:15] Yeah. And did not believe them when they said their kid didn't want to nurse. I thought, okay, you just don't want to nurse, that's fine. You don't have to like blame the kid. But legitimately he would [00:11:30] turn his head away from me and like, Scream, and I tried desperately to keep him on, but I saw it slowly slipping away as he more and more gravitated to the bottle.

[00:11:44] And at some point I just had to make the decision to, because it was, it was so, such burnout of a attempting to nurse him. Refusing to nurse, so then having to pump the, given the bottle. And at that point, I was alone with him much of the time [00:12:00] while she was in school and my husband was at work and so I switched over and became a pumping mom while still nursing her.

[00:12:09] Yeah. So she went on that, that happened when she was about three and a half. So I went on to still nurse her for another year while pumping for him four times a day. I was not gonna commit to like pump night pumping, anything like that. Right. And he did. He did. This is when co-sleeping came in for me. I never [00:12:30] actually co-slept with my daughter because she would just wake up more when we tried.

[00:12:34] And so it just didn't work well. Yeah, totally. Um, but with him, one night, one night I actually just went to pick him up and he was really cold and I was like, well, screw that. And brought him to bed. Mm-hmm. And so that enabled us to keep night nursing going until about seven months. So that was really good because I was like, I'm not getting up and warming a bottle for you.

[00:12:55] That isn't how it's gonna happen. I'm so nice. I know, [00:13:00] I know that feeling. Right. And, um, so I would pump four times a day and nurse her three times a day. And that at least we were on a schedule that became more manageable. So that happened in about September, 2019 and was good until about. March, 2020 When?

[00:13:24] Hmm. What happened March, 2020? So I had only been back to work about [00:13:30] eight weeks. I pre Covid life, I was a communication studies instructor at universities and colleges around Southern California. And I had been doing that for a decade. I had no intention or thought that I would ever change. It was my career.

[00:13:45] Um, and so I was back only part-time and with a couple of classes teaching 18 year olds, public speaking, and 2020, spring 2020, March, 2020, [00:14:00] that everything shifted and I, both, my husband and I landed at home. You know, in lockdown with two kids and both of us trying to work out of the same office. And yeah.

[00:14:15] And I know many of, well, maybe many of you with the older kids know about this and those with younger kids. Um, it's a very post covid parenting is I very interesting to me to see the shift. And there's been a lot of benefits, I think, to [00:14:30] nursing. Um, yeah. But having two kids home with no care and two jobs is unsustainable.

[00:14:37] Absolutely. Yeah. And I think also you're, you're so right that we ha like if you didn't, if you weren't a parent at that point, um, it was just the parenting world has changed. So I think that that is like important to like, highlight. How much our worlds like shifted then. And then if you were a parent that it was just like, yeah, I remember that so vividly.

[00:14:59] [00:15:00] That shift. Yeah, like that day. Everything changed forever. It changed forever. Yeah. And so we were navigating still, I was pumping four times a day, nursing her three times a day and they had three laps naps that didn't overlap cuz he was still on two naps and she was on wine. And I remember those days too.

[00:15:21] Yep. Yeah. So it was a lot. And unfortunately, the thing with nursing is it's the one thing my husband can't do. He couldn't pump for me, [00:15:30] you know? And so he could take them on breaks for me, but I still would have to do the thing and. So that the next six months or so? Well, okay, so I made it another eight weeks.

[00:15:42] I finished this semester teaching like 18 year olds in their beds, public speaking via Zoom. They would like not ideal, and like working till midnight to, cause they would go to bed and I would continue working. Yeah. And I, I just looked at my husband because I was supposed to teach a [00:16:00] summer class and I was like, that's not gonna happen.

[00:16:02] Because the other part of it was my daughter, um, had been in daycare full-time and the daycare was on my college campus. So it was beautiful because I could drop her off, walk to cl camp class and then come get her. And I knew that daycare was not going, or I knew that they were still going to be virtual, that the college was going to be virtual.

[00:16:21] And I knew because of that, that the daycare wouldn't be open. And I was like, I can't do this again. And so [00:16:30] never planned to be a stay-at-home mom, but became a stay-at-home mom. Um, I thought it would be temporary and it's been an indefinite and, um, it, it's just life shifts in interesting ways, in unexpected ways.

[00:16:46] But the beautiful thing about it was, you know, looking back like it was very traumatic. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Oh yeah. It was very, very hard. I went in therapy, my, put my daughter in therapy because she was having such a hard time reintegrating after [00:17:00] lockdown and like being scared and needing, not having the tools to explain to her what the heck was going on.

[00:17:07] And, um, so, and my son, he just had no idea, you know, everything was, he just won't remember, you know, he won't remember before. Um, but I got like a Pinterest preschool homeschool workbook and became a preschool teacher. And we, we have some [00:17:30] incredibly beautiful memories from that. And I'm so grateful now that I had.

[00:17:34] The luxury, I guess luxury, you know, that we could work off loan income and I could have that that time. And sometimes my daughter will still ask like, oh, can we do the activities we used to do? So it's really fun to, to look back in that way. Um, in that next six months when I was pretty much home and, and caregiver to them, um, he hit a [00:18:00] year and he was very delayed with food.

[00:18:02] He's very orally sensitive, which now, you know, a lot of, in hindsight, a lot of his aversions to nursing make a lot more sense, um, that he couldn't tell me at the time. But he's very picky eater. And, um, so I pumped longer than a year, which I really didn't wanna do, but did at a necessity. We weaned from Formula because I did supplement with formula.

[00:18:27] Um, And I did with her a little bit too, [00:18:30] by the way. So I just to be clear, it's like you can supplement and it doesn't mean that you can't go long-term. Um, totally. You just Wean from that. You Wean from the pump and you're left with the beautiful nursing relationship. Um, yeah. With intention you have to do it with intention and in the like Yeah.

[00:18:49] With support normally, because our ideas about the way that things work can be a little bit wonky and sometimes mess you up. But that being said, I always say that, that there are literally as many [00:19:00] ways to breastfeed as there are unique families out there. So like mm-hmm. Formula being a piece of that is like, Absolutely.

[00:19:07] Like that's totally something that you can work with and it doesn't have to mean anything about the length of time you're breastfeeding or anything. So I'm totally on board with that too. And caveat, get some support if you have long-term goals, because you probably need that. Well, I, okay, let me, I, I wanna speak to this a little bit too, because Totally.

[00:19:25] When, with my daughter, um, the reason I, I think I went through like two [00:19:30] bags or two boxes of formula at the very end. Yeah. It wasn't much, but my freezer supply went bad. Oh yeah. I just couldn't keep up and, but the stress I put on myself, And the fear about bringing formula into the relationship, thinking that she was gonna do what my son eventually did, but thinking that it was going to, you know, destroy our relationship would be the end.

[00:19:55] Absolutely. And seeing that it was okay because she was like nine or 10 months by [00:20:00] the time I introduced it. Yeah. And it just got us through. And I remember very intentionally telling my husband when I was pregnant with my second, we're going to have formula in place and ready in case we need it. I'm not, my mental health is as important.

[00:20:15] I realized as my kids' physical health and nutrition and I'm, I, I being, me, being healthy mentally and being there for them is just as important. So I was not going to sacrifice that a second time [00:20:30] around. Um, and that's why I did, I, I. Told myself, I'm like, I'm not exclusive. I'm not gonna be an exclusive nurser.

[00:20:38] I don't know how to do that with two kids. I need to be able to medicate and play. I need to not be hooked up to a machine 24 7. And so for my son, we, I, he got basically 50 50 for the, the next, his first year. And so as we weaned him from formula and then when I weaned him from the pump, [00:21:00] it was pretty quick after that that my supply really started to tank.

[00:21:04] And um, one of the amazing things, and maybe you can speak to this a little bit too, about tandem nursing is the older kid can tell you what's going on. Yep. And it was so cool, especially when he was little, to be like, You know, like, is anything coming out? Cuz when he was having a version, I, I had no, I, I was like, is nothing coming out?

[00:21:28] Is it too much [00:21:30] coming out? Like, what is happening? And I had had mastitis twice on my right side with my daughter and it had always been kind of the like lesser producer and just kind of different. And so I asked my daughter like, is it anything coming out? And she's like, yeah, this side it's fine, but this side blasts out.

[00:21:48] I'm like, oh, okay. So maybe he doesn't like being blasted in the face, a bunch of milk, you know? And so, um, just amazing things like that with nursing, [00:22:00] a verbal child. Um, you can learn so much. So as the weaning, the gradual weaning happened. Um, we had transitioned at some point, I'm not quite sure for her. Um, so a limited amount of time too.

[00:22:17] Like, I think it was three minutes. Like we're just going, it's that quick connection and then we're on our way. And, um, she at some point told me that right side, [00:22:30] nothing was really coming out anymore. And so we were left with this left side and, um, I, we just had some conversations and now I'll, I'll pro, I'm sure I'll cry by the end of this cause it's done.

[00:22:44] It's just beautiful. Um, yeah, it's just, you know, having conversations about saying, you know, one day it may just be gone and do you want that to be, to be the way it ends [00:23:00] or do you want to decide when we're gonna be done? And we, um, It was a couple, maybe a couple weeks of kind of going back and forth on this.

[00:23:12] And she would kiss my boob every time she was done and give it a hug just in case the milk didn't come back the next time. I know are gonna make me cry. I know. And yeah. Cause you haven't been through this far yet. This is Yeah. Like, like we're there right now, basically. I do [00:23:30] understand. Yeah. And um, one day she was just like, okay, I am, this is, this is it.

[00:23:38] I'm done. And I was like, fully expecting it to not be the case. But you know, she, she nursed and was hap like, she smiled and she was like, no, I'm okay. And the next day she, she was good. And that w that was it. I was a hot mess. Like I left the room like [00:24:00] bawling my eyes out and. Um, you know, my husband is supportive, like he's so supportive of the entire journey, but he kinda looked at me like I was crazy.

[00:24:12] Like of course. But now you have freedom, right? Like you're done. Yeah. You can go overnight if you wanted somewhere and you know, all of the amazing things that do compost, weening. But I was like, you don't understand the loss of this dynamic and what does this mean for our relationship? [00:24:30] What does, like what's, I, I don't know if this, this well found out, I think harsher than I mean it to be, but like, what's special about me anymore?

[00:24:38] Because this bond and this special thing was my superpower. It was the thing if she was upset. You've been there since the moment that you've delivered her. Like outta like, it was like your identity as a mom was so tied to that. I fully understand it. Like absolutely. [00:25:00] Yeah, my, my identity was wrapped in it.

[00:25:02] I, and I wasn't, I call it closeted nursing. Um, I wasn't fully closeted nurser, like I would talk, talk to people about it, but I also only did it at home. I mean, COVID kind of reinforced that, right. But, um, I was never a really comfortable nursing in public, so it was, she ne because she didn't really do that, it was never an issue for us of her, like demanding it, or a lot of those struggles that you can have with older children, you know, pulling shirts [00:25:30] down.

[00:25:30] That was never something we dealt with. Um, but yeah, the, the loss of that title and what's hard, and so at this point we were mid. Still mid Covid. I'm in California. And so restrictions lasted a really long time here. Yeah. Um, and I wasn't working. And the, so one of the sole reasons I had stopped was because I was the nursing mom.

[00:25:56] And so now I'm like, now what? Why, what is my [00:26:00] role? You know? And I am a studious person and I love education and learning. And after a couple weeks, I told my husband I wanted to become a lactation educator. I had found this online resource through, uh, Cal State University. Um, and these are, this is when some of the, the magical parts of Covid that have happened, the good things started to, to come up because [00:26:30] while college education is not ideal, you know, virtually it opened up.

[00:26:38] So much for us in lactation in terms of being able to care for people virtually. And because I had had thoughts of becoming a lactation person, but I knew I didn't. I saw the life of doulas and like the on-call and going to people's houses and I was like, I don't want that job. [00:27:00] And so the thought of doing it virtually made a lot, made it more feasible, realistic.

[00:27:04] I always thought like, maybe when my kids are older I'll go and do that. And so I went and I got my certification and started nursing mamas. And um, the thing with, I'm sure your education as well was it's mostly focused on the first year and Absolutely. You know, which rightly so because, or even less than the first year.

[00:27:27] Like it's mostly focused on the first three months to be honest. Yeah. [00:27:30] Like that. Yeah, that too. And I think there were a couple of us in the class who were, um, Veteran nurses and I was surprised how many were like, not even parents. I was like, wait, does that mean like the people who were helping me in the hospital maybe didn't even hadn't gone through this before?

[00:27:48] Like that should be a requirement. It definitely means that I see that all the time, and not by any fault of their own, but they're like in that position and that's what they do. It's like, I do see that. Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah. And one of the biggest problems I had with my daughter in the hospital is the person would come in and just grab my boob and shove it into her mouth, and I would, I literally said like, I'm not gonna have three hands going home.

[00:28:12] How do I do this by myself? Yeah. And virtual consults are perfect for that because I can't physically assist, and so I have to really rely on my verbal. Descriptions and, but it's amazing like fixing a latch virtually or hearing them go like you can [00:28:30] do it. Totally. And so it's been really, really cool to be able to help people.

[00:28:33] So, but because the education focused on those first three months, um, and just seemed like a natural place to start. Like, okay, I'm gonna help prenatally. And so I created a prenatal course and helped guide women through that. And that felt good, but I still felt kind of a disconnect because a lot of them were like indifferent to nursing.

[00:28:57] They were like, yes, almost. I'll go however long I [00:29:00] want. I'm like, okay, you, you're not sad. You're not sad. That's a of stopping. And it, I was, I I was not, it wasn't clicking yet why that was the case. And I, um, am on Instagram and I started doing Instagram lives, which just. Women with unique breastfeeding story and two really stood out to me that were not extended.

[00:29:25] I did not interview them with the goal being talking about extended nursing. The [00:29:30] first was, um, nursing after, um, I V F and she was an older mom, like pregnant after 40. And so we were talking about that, but she was an extended nurser nursing her near four year old. And so the, the conversation kind of went into like a weaning session, you or a coaching session, right?

[00:29:51] Yeah. And so that was one that I felt really drawn to that conversation. And then the other [00:30:00] conversation or interview was with a mom who had lactated after nursing her own four children to nurse an adopted child. Oh, beautiful. And it was beautiful. And we were talking. And I think I asked something like, why, like why did, was, were you so motivated to do this?

[00:30:19] And she was like, because I don't know how to parent without it. And that was like the, I so understand that light bulb moment for me of like, we are different, we're a [00:30:30] different breed. Because I viscerally knew and understood what she meant. It's why I went into tandem nursing, you know, and it's why I struggled so hard with my son because I, I had to learn real quick other strategies to parent because he didn't want the one tool I really had in my, my toolbox.

[00:30:51] Um, and she said something, again, this is always makes me tear up. Just she. Very calmly said like one day I'm [00:31:00] not going to be a breastfeeding mom. And yeah, she had been nursing for like 20 years on and off. Yeah. And she's just like, one day it's not gonna be there anymore. And there's a sad, there's a clear sadness to it that, that I felt.

[00:31:15] And so that was the moment for me where I was like, this is where I'm supposed to be and the people I want to help on the backend that there's no resources for. And I started researching. I'm like, did I miss something when I was [00:31:30] nursing? I was like, no, I'm really not. Nope, you didn't anything. No. And so I started researching, uh, or interviewing people or in interviewing the extended nursing moms in over and over again.

[00:31:42] Very similar stories. Yes. The burnout, the touch out. I couldn't believe I was talking with someone who's not a parent and they thought I'd made up. The word touched out.

[00:31:54] It's like, have you not viscerally know in your, the, the core of your bones Right. What that [00:32:00] means. And um, it's not until you're trying to nurse a demanding toddler. I mean newborn phase for sure, like first year for sure, but right. When you have this child that everyone else expects to behave a certain way and they're still like dominating the relationship and making sure you nurse it can feel, I, I try to explain to people it can feel, and I felt this with my daughter too at times, like, you are being forced to share your body with someone you don't want to [00:32:30] share it with.

[00:32:30] And those are the like yeah. The, uh, being held hostage being like, that's like the, that's the language and Yeah. I, I so understand it. I've, I had that same moment too, where I was like interviewing extended breastfeeding moms, moms breastfeeding, older kids. And it was like, I remember some of them being like, There's more of us out there.

[00:32:51] Like, what? Yeah. And I was like, yeah. Like this is, there is, and, and then yeah, I started, I started, for me, I started to get to the point where I could [00:33:00] predict what they were gonna say. Like, and I was like, okay, I think I got this. I was like, okay. I think I understand what's happening, but I, so, I so understand that so much.

[00:33:10] And it's also interesting talking to non-parents about it. Like when people ask me what I do, right? Right. And then I tell them, and I talk about closeted nursing and a lot of times there's an assumption of shame that I really don't think is there. I try to explain that. It's not that of shame. It's out of not wanting to, I don't wanna curse here.

[00:33:29] [00:33:30] I not, I don't mind dealing with, go for it. Ok. Not dealing with other people's judgmental bullshit, you know? Right. Like, you get so tired of hearing other people, you know, when they're, what they think you should do. Yeah. That you just wanna stop talking about it because you don't wanna deal. And so in some ways that's good and healthy, but in other ways it becomes very isolating and you do think you're the only one.

[00:33:54] And what ends up happening is there may be a bunch of people, right? A bunch of extended nurses walking [00:34:00] around in the world right past each other, not knowing that they are in the same experience position and do having the same experience. And so I think for both of us, that is where we are coming from, of trying to make community there and, and make awareness that you're not alone.

[00:34:21] Um, if any of this has resonated with you, and it's really been healing for me too, knowing that, um, you know, my [00:34:30] experience wasn't unique and I didn't know anyone else at the time that had nursed that long, and it was very like, Tell me if you had a similar experience, like nursing past one was totally fine.

[00:34:43] No one blinked an eye at two. It was sort of like, oh, and I still knew a couple people. Like, it was, it wasn't unusual three, it was like, what? Yep, really? Uh, when, [00:35:00] when are you gonna be done? You know, all of those questions. And by four, literally, my mom, my own, yeah, my own mom said, I'm sorry, that is just wrong.

[00:35:09] You know, I made a comment about it and we're getting close to six, and I remember seeing the news articles that are like, you know, like the clickbait ones that are like the breastfeeding, the seven-year-old. And I was like, that's almost me. Like, oh no. Yeah. Shock value. Yeah. And it's like, it's, yeah, it's, it's a, like, I [00:35:30] 1000% understand.

[00:35:30] It's like, yeah, like I'm so open about this. And then you start to pull back because you're not accepted. And I do relate to the business side of things too, even talking about it because people kind of like g gimme a blank stare or they don't fully understand, and that's tough. That's a different type of isolation and, and rejection, which I know that we are bonding over the fact that we can share this because people are like, what?

[00:35:55] Yeah. I mean, sometimes people get it and if, you know, you know, it's like, yes. [00:36:00] But, uh, yeah, I, so, I so relate to that, that like slow withdrawal because people just don't. Like they're just not supportive and they don't get it. And it's, I always say it's not worth my blood pressure spiking to like open myself up in this way.

[00:36:13] But it's isolating too. A hundred percent. It's totally isolating. And I Do you think that Covid enabled, like were you home pre covid or do you think Covid enabled you to continue that relationship and um, clearly, I'm sure the tandem experience. Has enabled you to nurse your older [00:36:30] one as long as you have as well.

[00:36:30] Yeah. I went into it in a little bit of a different mindset in the sense that I was breastfed till I was two, and my mom is a doula and I had been like being very studious myself a hundred percent. Like I was, I had like, I was learning and understanding that like breastfeeding until seven wasn't like a crazy, weird thing even when I was pregnant, like I was, I was understanding of that.

[00:36:57] I didn't think I was gonna do it, but I [00:37:00] definitely was like open to it. So like I had more of a mindset of from the very beginning, like, we're gonna go as long as we're gonna go. And I remember some people who I really respected as people who have breastfed, older toddlers kids, but they were still telling me, I remember somebody saying to my daughter like, you're gonna breastfeed till you're two or three.

[00:37:17] Like, and I was like, maybe not. Maybe fix that. I don't know. Like, yeah. So I, and she was just like a, an infant at the time and so I definitely had like a much more like open mind to that. And I am in Canada too, where I [00:37:30] am privileged to have a 12 month maternity, maternity leave. So I, um, You know, I didn't have the same pressures in that way, and I didn't have a super established career.

[00:37:42] I was like doing retail management, even though I had other interests and things, it's just not how I wouldn't know what I was doing. Yeah. So I had, like, I, my life kind of took different turns that way. Um, but I do see a ton, and I saw this 2001 to, into [00:38:00] 2002, so many people reaching out because they had been breastfeeding during lockdown, and they breastfed longer than they kind of meant to air quotes, and then they felt like they were stuck because it wasn't what they were intending to do.

[00:38:14] So for me, I would say regardless of Covid, I would probably still be in the situation that I'm in because that was just who I was, what I wanted. Um, but I do see it all the time where people are like, okay, something's gonna change. Um, something I, something [00:38:30] you said though, I wanna bring up a breast, an extended nursing myth, if I could, um, that I Oh, totally.

[00:38:35] I see a lot or hear a lot is you're, you're making them do it. Or like you Oh yeah. You cannot make a child nurse till six if they don't want to. A hundred percent is really a relationship. And, um, you know, when a child is, is ready, they'll let you know. And honestly, I think my, my daughter asked for it the other day.

[00:38:59] Like, I think if my [00:39:00] milk had kept going, she would've kept going, um, occasionally because it's, it's not about the milk, right? It's about the bond. And it was our mama, you know, our mama milk time. And it was very, very special. And it was the sole time, especially after her brother came when she got me. Yes.

[00:39:18] And, um, she had my complete attention and it was, I wasn't on my phone and, you know, all the things. And it was just us and life is busy now. And that was something else with [00:39:30] Covid, I'm really trying to actually hold onto a bit, is it was too much free time, too much home time. But we are always overscheduled, it's so easy to overbook and overschedule and so really making a point of keeping that open time.

[00:39:46] This is something for like, if you're coming up on weaning, how do you keep that connection? You keep it by still doing things with your child one-on-one. Yeah. And you still give them that love and attention together [00:40:00] and um, you have to be a little more creative with it, but that, that's how you keep that connection and, and build off of those years together.

[00:40:09] Um, because now, yeah, I, my six year old is in first grade. And, uh, crazy smart, super confident, talks to anyone, makes friends everywhere. Um, but she still, I still see that same child. Like it's amazing how their personalities form so [00:40:30] early and she still needs that connection with me. And just this week I realized that, uh, I'm pulling, no, I'm not pulling her out of school early.

[00:40:40] I'm just not sitting in her chair, her afterschool program because, and it, I'm sure you identify with this as well, that it's, it's sacrificed somewhere, right? And right. So I'm building this business, I'm doing this stuff, but I'm still mom and she still needs that one-on-one time with me. And so I just, this week [00:41:00] actually, I'm pulling her home first to get some quality one-on-one time before her brother comes home to try to fill that bucket.

[00:41:09] And, you know, I, I don't think. Any mom knows the sacrifice, physical time, commitment, jobs, relationships that nursing can, you know, create, but mm-hmm. Um, it's simultaneously so worth it, but it can only be worth it [00:41:30] if you're enjoying the ride. A hundred percent. And it's, it's crazy too, cuz like even talking about the sacrifices, I think that it's like, it's it like in, in a lot of ways it shouldn't be a sacrifice because, but it's because of the culture that we're in.

[00:41:45] Yeah. And the lack of support. And that is like the hard spot I think we find ourselves in as moms and where we're trying to balance all of these things and we have these pressures against us that's really unfair and not supportive of these relationships. [00:42:00] And, you know, like, and, and just like, you know, lack of maternity leave and like Yeah.

[00:42:03] Just, and, and the cultural, like the isolation and pulling back, like how sad is it that we're sacrificing those things because just. People like the world just doesn't support it. And it is really, truly beneficial. It's important, it's normal. It's all of those things. And yet we're in this place where we've, you know, we do have to sacrifice to to, to do it.

[00:42:27] Yeah. And that's the hard part, you know, like I [00:42:30] don't want to see it as a sacrifice on one hand because it's like, but it should be like, it, it, there should be support for it, right? Like there should be, it should be support, require that sacrifice and Yeah, it does, it does require a sacrifice. Like that is the reality of it.

[00:42:45] Um, yeah, I don't know. I get up on my soapbox about that cuz it breaks my heart. And I think that that's the tension that we feel so often as moms is like drawn to it, pulled to it, you know, wanting to move in that direction and yet there's things we have to let go of in order to do [00:43:00] that. That maybe Yeah.

[00:43:02] Had the, if, if the world. Saw it differently, saw us differently, saw the relationship differently, it wouldn't quite be so much to let go of, to in order to support that. You know? I wish How, how old are you? I am 30. I know. Okay, so we're, I'm 30. I'm gonna meet, I'm 38. So we're, we're around roughly around in the same decade.

[00:43:25] Yeah. And so were you raised, here's another kind of myth that I think really screws [00:43:30] everything up, is the myth of doing it all right. I was raised in the doing it all like, oh yeah. Like, I pushed and pushed to get my career set before having kids so I could have it all. And the reality is, I, I think that really has messed with our generation a lot.

[00:43:46] A hundred percent. Yeah. Because our parents did, the nursing part wasn't pushed on them like it is on us. Right. And the, um, it, it really, the. 40 hour a week job. [00:44:00] And I know exclusive nursing yeah. Don't really overlap very well. I don't, they do not need people that can do that. And so I think having those realistic expectations in check of, if you want this to be your mothering relationship or your goals, you need to be realistic about what the rest of your life might look like to make that happen.

[00:44:22] Hundred percent. Yeah. And I, I talk about that too, where I don't even, I mean, sure I do use the term breastfeeding goals, but I talk about values, [00:44:30] like what is important to you, like what is important to your family, what's important to like, and my family? I mean, like your partner or like your household, like what are the things Yeah.

[00:44:38] That you really value because that is what you need to prioritize. And the breastfeeding journey's gonna take the twists and turns that it does, which are often, some of them are within your control and some of them are not within your control. And you always have a choice amongst every single one of those pieces and steps.

[00:44:55] And so, Understanding your values and what is important to you, then [00:45:00] you can work to create that, you know, space that will be supportive for you and that will feel good. Mm-hmm. You know, and it, it is about those expectations, right. Because then it's like, okay, like I can't have it all. You can't. So it's like, what is important?

[00:45:13] Important At the same time, to me, you can't have it all at the same time. You know? Yes. You have to pick. Oh, and even, I just heard something re recently that was such a light bulb that like the idea of priorities isn't just a very new thing like it used to be. It's a priority. There's [00:45:30] one, what is your priority?

[00:45:31] Like it was never Oh, so good. Oh, that like, yes, I needed that. That's so good. Yeah. And recognizing if you're, if you're here, I mean, if you saw the title of this podcast and you're listening, it's because for this phase of your life, for these few years, this is probably one of your or your top priority, right?

[00:45:50] And yeah. And it doesn't mean that other parents. Are better or worse because it's not their priority. Like, [00:46:00] and also again, coming back to it's a nursing relationship. We can't force our kids. It was the hardest lesson I learned with my son. We can't force our kids to eat and some kids are going to end earlier and that doesn't mm-hmm.

[00:46:15] Mean that it's a less of a journey. It's a different journey. And I think there's also a lot of overlap between extended nurses. And tell me about what you think with your kids and strong-willed kids that. [00:46:30] Yeah, you're laughing. I think you have Danielle Bettman, right in your Yes, yes, yes, yes. I was in the shower I think just before this and I was like, thinking about you and I was thinking, and I was like, oh my gosh, it's so hilarious because like of course she would have the strong-willed like parent coach, like partnering with her because I think the ones, those of us who feel stressed out in somewhat of our extended breastfeeding relationship is cause we have strong-willed kids.

[00:46:57] Yes. In the best way. They're brilliant and sparkly and [00:47:00] wonderful and are exhausting. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're the, the easygoing kids that when you hear parents that are just like, oh, I just said we're not doing this anymore. And they said, okay, those are, that's not who're, you know, and I thinks people, you can tell me too about like your experience with this if you have any experience, but like, I have ADHD and I am.

[00:47:25] Like, I suspect that my daughter also has h d but I often see [00:47:30] like sensory processing needs, like, and, and neurodiversity kind of going hand in hand with this. And a lot of times those things are genetic and so if the parent. Doesn't have a diagnosis. Um, and maybe they just actually don't, but they might not be diagnosed, but actually be like a late diagnosis or whatever.

[00:47:49] And then these things are popping up and it's a different ballgame, like when you're talking about these kiddos. And I think that neurodiversity and strong-willed kids often like really go hand in hand because their needs are just different and the world doesn't [00:48:00] support those needs. So it comes across in a lot of ways as very like, strong and intense.

[00:48:05] But of course they have to, to like advocate for themselves and for what they need and, and, and that's beautiful. Um, but I do see that so much that there's so many of us who like, and they're like, you got diagnosed with adhd like late in life too. And I was like, yeah, me too. And me too. And you're like, yeah, okay.

[00:48:20] Like, or whatever that is, that those like sensory processing needs and all those pieces kind of like yeah. Fit. And I see that so much, um, along that journey too, [00:48:30] you know? Yeah. It's, it's so funny you mentioned sensory processing. So I don't, I've never been diagnosed. I don't, the more I keep going down this rabbit hole of sensory, I'm like, Maybe, but like I've never, I'm a very, I can focus like a lot of, anyway, I'm not an expert on a d adhd, so I'm not gonna go down that, that rabbit hole.

[00:48:47] But, um, my daughter totally like, we're very similar in sensory of like, she's, she's very big and outward with the sock issue. Like the socks [00:49:00] don't fit or, you know, that sort of thing. Like very, um, oh, I feel it so deep. I, I know. Mm-hmm. I know. Yeah. And I was the same way as a kid. And for me, I really realized, and Danielle helped me with this, realizing for me my overload stimulation is sound and noise and kids are loud.

[00:49:20] And nursing was my tool to keep them quiet. Right. Yeah. Like you're upset nurse. Yeah. You're hurt nurse, you're messing around here, nurse and be [00:49:30] quiet. And it gave me a moment of peace too. Mm-hmm. And so I've had to learn to cope it in my parenting. Yeah. With your plugs and Yeah. Other, other ways to, to deal with the big upsets because I didn't, I don't, I no longer have that tool and sometimes I really wish I do because especially for the hurt, the hurt's, the big one where it's like they're hurt Totally.

[00:49:52] And you dunno how to help it and fix it. It's so hard. Yeah. I was just gonna say, just a slight plug for my friend Katie Webber who has [00:50:00] the women in D H D podcast. I feel like you would actually love it. She's amazing. And go like, listen. And I mean, I'm not saying you have h d but I am saying the people that I connect with all tend to somehow have it.

[00:50:14] I'm diagnosing you, Erin. I'm just saying that's worth looking into. Um, she's awesome. Well, being the studious person I am. I will check it out. Yeah, she's awesome. But I totally, I, yeah, I, I feel that a hundred percent and that sensory [00:50:30] processing piece. And, and I think truthfully what it comes down to too is understanding our, our needs and our own unique.

[00:50:36] Uniqueness and our kids' uniqueness and then navigating that because I think we oftentimes do use like the shoulds or the shouldn't and, and have these kinds of ideas in our heads about how things should be. And then that just creates all this pressure and all this, you know, like tension and mixing super duper hard.

[00:50:53] And I, for me, that's what kind of talking about D H D and talking about sensory processing kind of comes down to is your [00:51:00] needs look different than other people's, you know, and the way you do things just looks different than other people. And so find a way to support you in that. And I think that that really links beautifully with talking about extended breastfeeding, because that's it too, right?

[00:51:13] Like it is, it's different needs and unique needs and it doesn't even need a label, right? Like, it's just, it's not even, it's not even extended nursing, it's just nursing. Hundred percent. You know, I, and it's funny, even like my decision, like I knew I wanted to call my business nursing [00:51:30] mamas, and it was, it was the word nursing and it really meant more to me, and I couldn't identify it at the time.

[00:51:36] Yeah. Until I was talking to extended breastfeeders and I asked someone like, what do you refer to yourself as? Or like, which do you more is, are you more aligned with like breastfeeding or nursing? And she said nursing, because it encompasses all parts of it. It's not just breastfeeding, it's nursing, it's nursing back to health.

[00:51:54] It's, you know, all of the things that I fit. Yeah. That's beautiful. [00:52:00] It was, it was really beautiful and it's been so amazing to have these aha moments shared with so many people. Um, but my, my ultimate goal, I, if I could summarize is well, so the community, but also providing people with choice. I think that, The options.

[00:52:22] Most people in our position with extended nursing are given is if you like it, keep going. If you don't like it, quit. [00:52:30] And there is a middle ground of people, a big group of people who don't wanna quit. Yeah. Don't wanna quit, but don't want to be, you know, uh, my, what is the best, um, oh, I'll have to, I, I'll have to think of it.

[00:52:46] I'm not thinking about at the moment, like the funniest Oh, a snack bar. A human snack bar. That's what it was. Yeah. I don't wanna be a human snack bar. And yeah, there is an in between to that and it's, it's bringing those parenting [00:53:00] skills and into play and, and bringing other people into the relationship because I know, I know what it's like to always be the one to put them down to sleep, because what's the point of having someone else try if they're still not asleep two hours later?

[00:53:16] Yeah. And everyone's tired. Like, I know what that's like. Yeah. And. So it's not a magic fix. It takes work, but it can lead to a beautiful relationship that goes on [00:53:30] longer than maybe you even expected you would want it to be. Yeah. But because it works, it, it works. You know, like you can keep going. Yeah. I, I get that so much and I, I, yeah, I totally understand that conundrum.

[00:53:42] I'm always like, it's, it feels like, it's like tough love. Like you just have to stop. Like even if your child wants it, just stop. Just the tough love or the tough it out and it's like, well if your kid wants it, then just keep going. Like if that's, if you, if you're okay with it and there's nothing in between and that's, it's, it's a lie.

[00:53:56] Like it's just, there's black and white kind of false dichotomy that we [00:54:00] create and it's like not true. Yeah. Um, and I think and I love that to the shoulds and shouldn't I, I love that you said tough love cuz it also reminded me of my big aha moment with my daughter. She was around two and again verbal, right.

[00:54:14] And she said to me, milk is love. Like very flat out. It was, it milk is love. And then, but then there comes the guilt, right? It's like, oh, milk is love. Oh, I can't take away my love. Like, you know, I think there is a [00:54:30] unique difference in extended nurses in that connection. We are their comfort. We are their blanky.

[00:54:37] We are their favorite stuffy, right? Like we are their person. And there is a very, there's an awareness there of knowing not just what we're taking away from us, but what we're taking away from them. And it's replacing is showing you that you can replace the milk with and teach them that when the milk goes away, [00:55:00] you will still be there.

[00:55:00] Because in their minds there's, you are one and the same. When they say milk is love, they really mean, mama is love. Yes. So I think that we can think that we, like we tie ourselves to that, but our kids. Often we'll take the, uh, we'll follow our lead, I should say. So like if we feel confident in separating those things, like, and, and in saying like, I am me and we take the lead in that they're gonna follow.

[00:55:26] And something that I say, yeah, which I feel like is controversial [00:55:30] in the lactation world, but maybe it's not. But like our kids, the best start you can give your kid what your kid actually needs to thrive isn't breast milk. It's secure attachment. And so breast milk is important for so many reasons. And I think that we need to like look at breastfeeding statistics and look at the support that's there and understand the reasons why people aren't breastfeeding so that we can, you know, like address those things.

[00:55:55] Because from a public health standpoint, it's important. We need to like, you know, and [00:56:00] everybody should have a choice a hundred percent, but at the end of the day, for each family, what I always like come back to is like, it is the secure attachment that we know is the number one indicator of how.

[00:56:13] Successful quotes, like emotionally, relationally, even financially, your child's gonna be in the long run into adulthood. Yeah. That is a thing that's gonna take them through. And so, but we hyper fixate on the, on the breast milk piece and we, you know, don't know how to, like, we [00:56:30] think that that is what it is and, um, yeah, it, it's, it makes it hard like the mindset, um, walking through that, walking through weaning, walking through, continuing whatever that looks like.

[00:56:41] And we put so much pressure, I think, on that piece. So yeah, I think we, there needs to be more focus on the mother. I think we swung too far, um, in the direction, and I'm not saying that a child's health is not important, of course I am. Right, right. Not at the detriment of the [00:57:00] mother's health. Hundred percent physical health when my own experience, you know, and the mother's health nipples.

[00:57:07] Of course, and the mother's health is how you can like, support the breastfeeding experience. Like that's how you support them both. Like, you're not gonna get anywhere if you're like, you know, and I, I get that so, so, so much, so deeply. I mean, my just ju just briefly say like, my daughter didn't latch for like the first three days and you know, like I, I, I get it.

[00:57:28] Like I, as you were sharing [00:57:30] every single piece, I was like, I could have jumped in here and shared my own parallel story, you know, like along each of those, so I get it. So, you know, um, yeah. We worked so hard in the beginning to, to make it there and make it keep going. It's hard to let go. I, I do think there would be an interesting, from a research point of view, like we need to look into trauma nursing, like there, you know, breastfeeding trauma in the beginning.

[00:57:54] How does that affect the relationship? Like, and going with what you said [00:58:00] about the attachment resentment, nursing is not like if you're continuing to nurse because. You feel like you have to and you don't know how, and you're resentful of it, that what kind of bond is that, right? Like right. We, you're doing it hopefully to con keep that connection going and it is so valuable and vital.

[00:58:20] So both of us, I think what we're doing in this field is trying to, to teach people how to do that. Yeah. And with nuance. Um, and which I think is exactly [00:58:30] what we're talking about here, ex Exactly. It, it's seeing the mom, the person Yes. And the child seeing the relationship and, you know, supporting that as we work through it.

[00:58:41] Um, and so I just, I'm so grateful that we were able to talk today, Erin. Um, I feel like yeah. I feel like we could talk forever. Oh, we could. We'll have to do it again, you know. Yeah. We'll, we'll figure out another time to, to extend this a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. [00:59:00] So, um, just as we're kind of wrapping up here for the podcast, I'd love for you to just share where people can connect with you and what you've kind of got going on.

[00:59:08] If anyone would like to, uh, continue the conversation with you after this podcast. Yes. So if you like, you know, this conversation, I would love for you to come over to my Instagram. Um, I, I talk about extended nursing and weaning solely on my account, um, at Erin Dot Nursing Mamas. And, [00:59:30] um, a program that I have, a free workshop that I run every six weeks or so is the extended nursing workshop.

[00:59:36] It's free three day, uh, zoom meetings. One to try to help with that isolation. Getting in a a, a zoom room with other moms that are going through the same struggles can be really validating. But we talk about breastfeeding boundaries and um, you know, what is a, there's not a lot we can do in the first week, but, or in three days, but what is [01:00:00] one boundary that you can set and how do you set it and what does that look like?

[01:00:03] So it's, again, bringing that parenting into the breastfeeding world. Um, and then coming back day two and seeing how it goes and talking about, oh, this is the other thing is amazing how life works is I'm able now my, my degrees, I have master's degrees in family and health communication. So I'm bringing in that world by, because toddlers talk, right?

[01:00:28] Like my, my [01:00:30] expertise now is in the mother child nursing relationship and the messages between them. And so, How to communicate because your child understands a lot more than you give them credit for. Yes. Especially the after one. And, um, you, they understand, no, they don't like it, but they know, but it's not just no, it's what to do in replace of it.

[01:00:52] So that's what we talk about in the workshop. I do consults, I do, we consults and anyone is always, uh, you know, [01:01:00] more than welcome to reach out to me to, to schedule that as well. Ah, amazing. I love it, Erin. It is such a pleasure. And all of those things will be in the Thank you so much.