10: Breastfeeding through trauma and beyond - Real Life Toddler Breastfeeding Story from Claudine Mossberg

Claudine has been breastfeeding for 13 years and is currently breastfeeding her 4 year old.

In this inspiring interview, she shares what it has been like to breastfeed for over a decade.   She share wise insights she has acquired over her breastfeeding journey and vulnerably speaks about an unexpected trauma that almost stopped her breastfeeding journey in its tracks.

Claudine is a postpartum doula, breastfeeding support volunteer, and outdoor lifestyle coach.

Send Claudine an DM on Instagram.
Check out Claudine's website.

Grab your free guide to say "No" to the feed while still saying "yes" to the need at  www.ownyourparentingstory.com/guide

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Jenna: Hey, Claudine, it is so awesome to talk with you today and I, I mean, I cannot wait to dive into all of this stuff. So let's get started. Why don't you let me know a little bit about yourself and just kind of like the highlights, the, the big. Landmark moments in your breastfeeding journey so far? 

[00:00:21] Claudine: Yes. I am so happy to be here and thank you for the invite.

[00:00:25] Claudine: It's such a wonderful thing for me to be able to share my story and hopefully have an [00:00:30] impact and support other moms because I was supported so much on this journey too. So it's really, it's special to me to be able to share my story. So thank you so much for having me. And I am a mom of three and I am.

[00:00:43] Claudine: My oldest is almost thir 13 in about six days. I have been nursing for 13 years. Well, just shy of thir six days, but . Yeah. And during this time I tandem nursed for about two and a half years, my first two daughters and I [00:01:00] had a short break during my pregnancy for my third and Son. Right now my youngest is four and almost four and a half and he is still nursing.

[00:01:09] Claudine: My oldest daughter nursed until she was four years and nine months. My middle child, my daughter, she nursed until she was five years and three months, and my son is still nursing and I've Been through so many things over these 13 years that I am excited to be able to share [00:01:30] because as amazing as it's been, there's been challenges.

[00:01:33] Claudine: And the reason I've gotten past those challenges is because people were around to let me know they, I wasn't alone. And there's been. There's been a lot of things over the years and I am so glad that I've been on this journey with my children and that it's gone the way it has, and I think that's so important and I just want everyone to kind of like hear that from me in that.

[00:01:55] Claudine: your journey is your journey and whatever that looks like is good. I know my [00:02:00] kids have nursed for a very long time, but that doesn't mean if you nurse for two years, it's not good or you nurse for six months or it's not good. Like your journey is yours. And I share my story not to say that this is the way it should be done.

[00:02:14] Claudine: It's more that, hey, this is what our journey looks like. And I did not set out for it to look this way and to just really be. Okay. With your relationship with your children and how that goes, because it's personal and [00:02:30] it's really up to you on how that looks. So I just like to take that pressure off because I know my kids have nursed for a really long time and I don't want anyone to feel like that.

[00:02:39] Claudine: That is like some goal they need to get to, right. It's not, it's just what happened for my kids. 

[00:02:46] Jenna: Yeah, I, I think that, that, I absolutely feel that caveat too, that need to put that caveat cuz I feel like I have to express that sometimes to myself. And it's so beautiful. And I think just the fact that you can.[00:03:00] 

[00:03:00] Jenna: are, are willing to share about it is like huge because so many people are like these closet breastfeeding moms of the toddlers and of the preschoolers and they feel like they can't talk about it and then it creates the shame, right? I mean I was just mm-hmm. speaking with some of my clients currently in own your breastfeeding story, who, you know, they're reflecting on the experiences.

[00:03:24] Jenna: as kids and as young adults watching other people breastfeed and how much shame was connected with it. So it [00:03:30] was always this kind of like this tangled net of like, it's a beautiful thing and it's natural and it's wonderful. And also there's like, you have to do it in private and you know, you have to like like all of those pieces too.

[00:03:41] Jenna: And if you do it too long, then you know, like there's something wrong with you or there's something wrong with your kid or, you know, like all of those pieces too. Right. So I think even just the fact that you're here, like. Willing to talk about it and own the good and the bad and all of those pieces together.

[00:03:57] Jenna: I just, I think it's a beautiful gift, so thank you for [00:04:00] sharing that. I also just wanted to say too, that like, I love how you're talking about this relationship and it's different for everybody. I always say like, breastfeeding is parenting, and parenting is a relationship, right? Breastfeeding is a relationship.

[00:04:12] Jenna: Yes. It's this, you know, it's an unfolding and it's gonna look different for everybody, and that is why. , you know, you get to make your own choices and you're not a, a victim to what's happening. You get to own it. You get to move forward with it. So I'd love to hear you [00:04:30] said that, you know, that wasn't how, how you intended to, to go for , how you intended things to be.

[00:04:35] Jenna: So could you maybe shine a light on what those earlier experiences were like 13 years ago and kind of how you set out what your expectations were, what kind of support you had? . Yeah. So 

[00:04:48] Claudine: 13 years ago when my daughter was born, we we had a lot of problems, like very challenging. It was really challenging.

[00:04:56] Claudine: I had to get a lot of help. And [00:05:00] in that first four weeks I had, I think everything but mastitis. I mean, I had cracked nipples, bleeding nipples, I mean, Was in so much pain. I wasn't sure if she was getting enough. I had all the worries of the weight gain and I am the kind of person where I just, I acknowledge his power and so I dove in to get help and find a good I B C L C, I went to a breastfeeding support group.

[00:05:27] Claudine: I linked up with my local group and. [00:05:30] Really through the tears. . Yeah. And the stress was like, I need to know what I'm doing. Cuz I had no idea what I was doing and my mom didn't really breastfeed me. Cuz back then they didn't really have support. And she's like, yeah, it hurt. So I just didn't do it. So I was actually not breastfed for very long, so there wasn't support there.

[00:05:52] Claudine: And my in-laws were more like, well, Why are you still doing that if it's so difficult? You know? And I was like, because it's important to me. And [00:06:00] so thankfully, you know, my husband was a hundred percent behind me and he helped me find somebody and got me to somebody and we got the help we needed. And about around week six or seven is when we started to figure things out and I was, I started to heal , which was really hard.

[00:06:18] Claudine: Yes. So there was a lot of challenges that I had to overcome in that first month and a half, two months, which by the way, there's also all that other first mom newborn stuff going [00:06:30] on, of course, , right? So this is like another whole layer to that. It really inspired me. to continue my knowledge and support other women because I could not have been on the journey I've been on for 13 years if it wasn't for the people who were there to support me when I needed it.

[00:06:50] Claudine: And so I actually became a postpartum doula and a birth doula and educated myself in breastfeeding support and. Started working with moms [00:07:00] post postpartum and helping them and volunteer based. So I just gave as much of my time as I could once my daughter was a bit older, obviously, but mm-hmm. anytime if somebody was looking for help, I was really, it inspired me so much to be like, I need to be there for someone else because of, I would not have had the journey I did if somebody wasn't there for me.

[00:07:20] Claudine: And that was, it was really hard. Yeah, it was. There are so many. . And what kept me going really was that I felt that [00:07:30] bond and that connection, and I really wanted to give this to her and to us, and I just wouldn't give up . Yeah. And it was the people there saying, supporting me and saying, you know, how to heal myself, that I would be okay, that I can do it.

[00:07:46] Claudine: That helped me continue. in how to support me. And I learned so many things because so many things happened to me. And then I also just surrounded myself by women who were also nursing, to give myself a village of [00:08:00] people who understood what I was going through instead of having that negativity of, well, why are you doing that?

[00:08:04] Claudine: If it's so hard, why don't you just stop? Why don't you just pump? Why don't you, you know? And I'm like, well because I don't want to. 

[00:08:10] Jenna: Right. 

[00:08:11] Claudine: Absolutely. And it's not, it's not their journey, right? So I had to really, on a very early on, and as a new mom, had to really commit myself to like, no, this is what I want, and I know I can in finding that help, so, Yeah, that was really 

[00:08:25] Jenna: hard.

[00:08:26] Jenna: Yeah. And you know, it's so funny you're talking about [00:08:30] like committing yourself to this and, and creating that village. And to me that sounds like just boundaries in a beautiful way, right? Like you knew you, this is. , like I talk about boundaries in the toddler breastfeeding experience, and a lot of times we just think of boundaries as as No, right?

[00:08:46] Jenna: It's just like a No, but there's so much of it as understanding who you are, where you end, and where someone else begins, right? So it's like, that's your journey over there and that's great. And this is [00:09:00] mine, right? And that, that is your boundary. It's that dividing line. It's literally like a mark demarcation between two.

[00:09:08] Jenna: Things, it's, it's showing that line. And so you were able to say like, create that boundary for yourself. Like, these are the people I'm going to surround myself with and this is the community I'm going to form. And I, I, you know, I think that that relates even into like breastfeeding down the line, because a lot of times moms, they might have that support early on.[00:09:30] 

[00:09:30] Jenna: They might even have that support of people that are like, yeah, keep going. But then at a certain point, of course, and I'm sure we'll get to this in your story, it that Oh yes. Support kind of even the people who are supportive at you in the beginning can kind of turn once you get to a certain point in your journey.

[00:09:44] Jenna: And a lot of times that's where I think that a lot of times the moms. moms think that the boundaries that they need are with their kids to say no. And don't get me wrong, there's a time and a place for that kind of support to you. And I think that boundaries, it's so important to have that line between you and [00:10:00] someone else and say like, no, this is me and this is my journey and the choices I am making.

[00:10:04] Jenna: And I think that that's just a really relatable experience for a lot of people. So I wanted to kind of highlight that as, as even like as an example of like boundary setting, you know, and creating that community for yourself and. Beautiful tenacity, like through that to know yourself and what you wanted and to say like, yeah, I'm not gonna give up.

[00:10:22] Jenna: Like I had go, it's very cold where I am right now, but I still had goosebumps cuz it's just that mama bear like , you know, like piece that's [00:10:30] shining through. So yes, and, and just 

[00:10:32] Claudine: yeah. To talk a little bit about what you're saying about the boundaries too. It's like express feeling is a re it's a relationship and I.

[00:10:39] Claudine: What I learned over the years, right? It's been over a decade for me. Nursing is like in those beginning months and those, even the beginning years, I very much gave myself to make sure I gave into this relationship, and it was really hard for me to learn that I was part of the [00:11:00] relat. and I kind of got lost in, no, I have to do this and this is what she needs and this is what I have to do.

[00:11:07] Claudine: And I don't fault myself for any of that. It was all part of my learning process. And but now I'm a mom of three and like through the whole process, it's like the experience with my son is very different. And I'm like, sorry dude, you're getting the mom who knows more , right? But I understand now. I'm like, okay, I am not your sole source of food.

[00:11:28] Claudine: I need to [00:11:30] eat. I know you want to nurse, but like, I need to eat first. Right? And like we have those conversations and I allow myself to be part of the relationship and where I'm not just giving because, and that has been a big transformation for me over these 13 years beyond. And I think a lot of the things I experienced in my journey have brought me to that.

[00:11:49] Claudine: It took me a long time. . And so that's kind of why I was really excited to be here and kind of talk about this because it may seem like, okay, I have boundaries with my son and I know [00:12:00] this and I know that. And like, yeah, I have a lot of knowledge. I still have challenges with him. But also realize I started this 13 years ago and the person I was then is not the person I am today because we learn from these experiences and they impact us, right?

[00:12:17] Claudine: And so I've dealt with being told I can't. My child uncovered. I've dealt with being in a restaurant and being told I can't nurse them and looking at them and say, look at the law. I have every right to be here. You know, I educated [00:12:30] myself to make sure that I knew what I was allowed to do, and I stood up for myself and the rights for other women too, because,

[00:12:37] Claudine: I think it's important that we support each other that way and normalize this, right? Yes. And so I've been through all of those situations where I felt uncomfortable and I had to stand up for myself alone. You know, I wasn't surrounded by a bunch of other women that could speak up with me. I was alone.

[00:12:54] Claudine: You know, tandem nursing, we can talk about that for a whole episode on the challenges through that and the [00:13:00] questions of why and you know, and then nursing them until. almost five, you know, all three of them at this point. So and we can also talk a little bit too, my son had a traumatic fall when he was 20 months old and he actually didn't nurse for five days.

[00:13:17] Claudine: Yeah. And I cried every day. Yeah. And he was in the hospital, he had a injury to his mouth and he wasn't eating. He had stitches and he, he was just very uncomfortable and in pain [00:13:30] and I couldn't nurse. , he wouldn't nurse cuz he was in too much pain. And this was been my absolute a hundred percent. If my kids are hurt, we 

[00:13:40] Jenna: nurse

[00:13:41] Jenna: Right. And it's been your soul mothering tool at that point. Yeah. Like that's such a primary tool to comfort your child and, yes. Oh my goodness. And also like, so I'm imagining that you didn't know if that was maybe gonna be the end of your journey or not Exactly. Like after five days of not feeding. We were in the hospital for [00:14:00] more about that.

[00:14:00] Jenna: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:14:01] Claudine: So he, he fell and I've, I've gone to therapy for this, so like I'm okay talking about it, but I'll tell you right now, it's very traumatic for me. And, but I was three days post sinus surgery myself. And wasn't supposed to lift and was recovering. And when he fell he cut the bottom lip with his two top teeth and he needed stitches and we thought he was fine, but then he didn't eat and so I literally just held him and he wouldn't nurse.

[00:14:29] Claudine: So I held him all [00:14:30] night. Awake trying to help him sleep. And then I just knew we had to go to the er, so we ended up going to the hospital. This was in 2020. It was so, so great. Oh yeah, so I do know that. Yep. Yeah, so we went to the hospital and I just, I couldn't sooth him that way. It's not what he needed.

[00:14:46] Claudine: So I had to dig deep as a mom. Where for at that point it's like 10 years that, yeah, I had been. , that was my number one tool was to comfort my child by [00:15:00] nursing. And I couldn't do that. And I remember thinking, okay, that is not the only thing you can do. You know, that's not the only thing you do. You can hold him, you can talk to him.

[00:15:11] Claudine: It actually helped me grow as a mother because I leaned into so many other things I could do to comfort him and hold him. And yes, every single day I, I said, I don't even remember the last time we. Like it wasn't an, it wasn't a moment I remembered because it [00:15:30] wasn't, it didn't seem like it was going to end, and so I had, every day I cried, but on that fifth day when, and I talked to a friend every day.

[00:15:41] Claudine: Phone a friend mom's like, just don't sit in silence and be upset about things. Like if you need to journal, if you need to call a friend, like, I can't tell you, I'm so grateful for the, the village that I have and that I've created. And friends would just talk to me and I, they'd just let me cry. And one day he nursed and [00:16:00] the tears that I had that he actually nursed again and I was like, that wasn't the end

[00:16:07] Claudine: Yeah. And and that's just what I was trying to prepare myself was that it might have been the end and I was preparing myself to be okay with that and that our journey was ours and that it was still gonna be okay. It was still his mother and I can still love him and care for him. And I think a lot of moms deal with situations where they have something [00:16:30] happen where they can't nurse anymore, and it's really hard.

[00:16:32] Claudine: And so I share this story because it was really hard, and I am so grateful and thankful that we are able to sell nurse. But I'm also really, for all the people that were surrounded, surrounded me to get me through that. Cuz it's, as you can tell, he's choking me up. 

[00:16:47] Jenna: I'm gonna cry, man. Yes, I hear that. I think it was intense.

[00:16:52] Jenna: Yeah. Like you had, I mean, there was surgery for you that you were recovering from. So like your emotions, like all of that's gonna be all over the [00:17:00] place just from. Your hormones, like everything gets affected when you're like under anesthesia and the cortisol levels, like all of those things. Right? So you have that, that you're recovering from like hugely.

[00:17:10] Jenna: Then 

[00:17:10] Claudine: you have this, oh, he was, did I mention how old he was 20 

[00:17:13] Jenna: months old. Yeah. So he's like this little baby, you know? Mm-hmm. to have that like, and then the trauma, like it's not fun to watch your child get injured. Like that's a. Hard thing then you were unable to breastfeed and after [00:17:30] like Yeah. 10 years of like breastfeeding through all of your children's like discomforts particularly at that age, you know?

[00:17:38] Jenna: Yes. Like yeah. And having especially that age in Yeah. And find those new tools. I mean, I know that there's moms who come to me who have intended to breast. like for a long time and something happens and their face at this crossroads of, I mean, for you it was really taken away, right? Like you didn't have any, there wasn't a choice, right?

[00:17:58] Jenna: Yeah. But sometimes it's like, [00:18:00] I could keep going, but there's this really big, traumatic, difficult thing that's here. So I'm so grateful that you shared that story just to give some comfort and support. I'm curious, like one on a technical side, were you like pumping? Did you feel the need to like remove milk while he was gone?

[00:18:17] Claudine: No, I was not. I did. I knew what to look for. Right. So I made sure that if I did feel full, I would just hand express a little bit. He was 20 months. Also , right? I should [00:18:30] probably mention that. At a very young age, he decided to only nurse on one side. Fun. He was like, it was like six months, like in his first year of life.

[00:18:40] Claudine: I don't really remember him ever nursing on both sides. So he's, he's a a righty kid and , we call him Lefty And Righty. So that was that was really hard too because yeah, that's just, I mean, we can just talk about that as a separate aside, but like, I only had one side to [00:19:00] consider, but the other side still makes.

[00:19:02] Claudine: Right. It's still there. It's just not at a, such a high production. But that's also been something I've had to. come to terms with in that? Yeah. There are times where I have severe nursing aversion since my second daughter was born that I've dealt with for 10 years now. And it didn't go away. It's never gone away.

[00:19:24] Claudine: And so there's times where like, I'm like, I just would love to not nurse on this [00:19:30] side. Yeah. And I don't have the option on the other side. 

[00:19:33] Jenna: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So that's, 

[00:19:36] Claudine: yeah. I'm sorry to totally throw a tangent in 

[00:19:38] Jenna: there, but No, no, no. Don't, that's like, I just, I think that like, , every single person's story is so unique.

[00:19:46] Jenna: So hearing all of these pieces, I think somebody out there will be like, oh, that's me too. Yeah. And like, I like, you know, like, I didn't know that. Any anyone else experienced that or felt that way? Because we just don't, I mean, I wish I didn't have a job. . Like, I wish that there [00:20:00] was just, it was just normal to talk about these things and that like, I wish I didn't need to do this.

[00:20:04] Jenna: Right? Like yeah. I mean, I love my job and I absolutely love supporting moms in this way, but it also makes me sad that we're at a place in society where that there's so much shame around or, or not shame, but. misinformation and just lack of, you know, feeling like you have a voice and feeling like other people have been there too, and understand.

[00:20:21] Jenna: So yeah, I dunno if you 

[00:20:23] Claudine: wanna, I don't know if you want me to elaborate just because this could be very helpful to anybody who might be experiencing this, cuz I know I didn't understand it. You [00:20:30] can elaborate cuz you're the professional here, but I can just, yeah, no worries. When I say, when I say nursing aversion it's toe curling.

[00:20:37] Claudine: Yes. My skin, everything is like Pins and needles all over my body like creepy crawlies. Like I just want everything off of me. And that's been happening since my second daughter was born and it comes and goes in severity. And so I've actually had to distract myself while nursing and it's been very challenging because I do believe so much in this connection.

[00:20:59] Claudine: So I [00:21:00] have to take these. Nuggets of time where I can actually look at my child and nurse, but otherwise I, that starts to come on and I have to disconnect. So it's been very challenging because I believe so deeply in what I'm doing and I love the connection we have, but I, there are so many times I have to disconnect from the, the connection.

[00:21:15] Claudine: To have the connection. Yeah. And to feel that about your child Yeah. Was really hard for me to grasp because I don't wanna feel. . 

[00:21:26] Jenna: Yeah. I also have experienced pretty like severe [00:21:30] nursing aversion. I mean, I, I like, my line is always like, I would be punching my headboard in the middle of the night just to make it through the feed, you know?

[00:21:38] Jenna: And it didn't go away after my son was born. I, you know, to be honest, I don't think I've dealt with it in quite a while at this point. I've really, This is the work I do and that I've done, and I support moms with nursing aversion too. So I mean, I have lots of, like, lots of things I could share about nursing aversion and that.

[00:21:56] Jenna: But I do appreciate you clarifying that and sharing what that is [00:22:00] because , it's so funny actually. Just after the first couple episodes of my podcast came out, I had a, a good friend who's an I B C C herself, and she messaged me and she's like, oh my gosh, I learned something new. I didn't know that nursing aversion was a thing.

[00:22:15] Jenna: I experienced it. Didn't know what had a word. Right. She's like, that's kind why. I stopped breastfeeding. I just thought that I just needed to stop because I was experiencing this. And yeah, we could, yeah, I could. I will have full episodes, many of them on nursing [00:22:30] aversion cause it's something I'm very passionate about.

[00:22:31] Jenna: But I would just love to jump back to the fact that you weren't. expressing or like pumping during that time? Cuz I think that this is something that we get really in our heads about the amount mm-hmm. of milk that our kids are taking, especially early on. And then there can be this big fear that we're gonna lose our milk supply or mm-hmm.

[00:22:54] Jenna: and or this expectation that if we don't nurse for a few days, that our milk supply is just gonna go away. Yeah. Like [00:23:00] that, like, and I love this very, very practical example that you're sharing where it's like, my child physically could not breastfeed, which was obviously very traumatic and I do not mean to minimize that at all.

[00:23:10] Jenna: But that, That you were able to come back and kind of pick up without having to be particularly proactive about maintaining your supply. And I just think that that's important to highlight because for moms at this point, it's hard for them to often grasp that your supply is very well regulated at [00:23:30] this point.

[00:23:30] Jenna: Yes. And it doesn't take too much to pick it back up again. And there's often this concern about like low supplier. Ate something with peppermint in it and you know, my supply dipped, or I took antibiotics and my supply dipped, or, you know, whatever. And this, these fears. So yeah. I'm curious like how I, 

[00:23:48] Claudine: how I got through 

[00:23:49] Jenna: that or what I Yeah, I'm curious what that Yeah, what you were thinking during that time.

[00:23:52] Jenna: So 

[00:23:53] Claudine: a lot, this was my, he's my third, so I had a wealth of knowledge at this point. And it's interesting though because I [00:24:00] did have all the knowledge, but I still needed to call people and have them tell me the things that I knew. Yeah. And I think that's important to know that like, As a mom even, you can have all the information, but when it's happening to you, it's hard to actually.

[00:24:13] Claudine: Get to that information in your brain cuz your brain is dealing with the situation. Right. So the first thing I did was make sure that I supported myself the way I would support somebody else with my knowledge. Right. And I didn't fault myself for not being able to think of those things. And I also knew [00:24:30] that planning of moms travel for work and come back home and their toddler is jumping all over them.

[00:24:35] Claudine: Right. And I also was holding him all the time. We were skin to skin a lot because he was also in pain. So I resort, one of the things that I started to do a lot was skin to skin. Like I had my shirt off, his clothes off. We were skin to skin all the time because he was hurting. And I was like, I know I can do this for you.

[00:24:50] Claudine: And so my body knew he was there. Yeah. 

[00:24:54] Jenna: The oxytocin. So would be, that would be so supportive. Yeah. I 

[00:24:58] Claudine: also was very in [00:25:00] tune with my body. I think it's important that we take the time to listen to our bodies. I 

[00:25:05] Jenna: could feel when he normally 

[00:25:08] Claudine: would nurse, I could feel the surge, like I could feel my body anticipating it.

[00:25:13] Claudine: Our bodies are connected to that child . Yeah, because there, there is a conversation that happens and I also kept telling myself, , I didn't have to do anything to produce milk. Yeah. [00:25:30] Other than eat, drink, and sleep. Yeah. And I know a lot of moms can struggle with supply and I'm not trying to belittle that or anything like that.

[00:25:41] Claudine: Like I understand that's a, a challenge for many moms. But I think it was important for me to keep my anxiety down and my fear down because I know how that can also. Us and I wanted to allow my body to stay calm so that it could stay regulated. And I just [00:26:00] kept telling myself, just do what you do. Just do what you do and just be here for your child.

[00:26:06] Claudine: And I stopped focusing and worrying, and I started to just say, okay, this isn't my, this wasn't my choice. This isn't what I wanted. And if this is how my entire breastfeeding journey ends, then this is my story. And I just, Kept myself in like, tomorrow's another day and we'll see what happens. Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:25] Claudine: And so it was really emotional and I just tried to do [00:26:30] everything I could and accept that what was gonna happen was gonna happen. Yeah. It's 

[00:26:35] Jenna: a, and by no means was it easy. Yeah, you were in survival. You were just in survival mode. Mm-hmm. like makes perfect sense. I would also say too, that like something that comforts me and that I share with my clients, you know, Dr.

[00:26:45] Jenna: Jack Newman has a protocol to induce lactation for postmenopausal like women who have never lactated before. So like , a woman can induce lactation after menopause who has never [00:27:00] had a baby before. Right? So if that's possible, then it doesn't really matter where you're at. You're never too far gone to come back from it, you know?

[00:27:09] Jenna: And I think that's 

[00:27:10] Claudine: why I was keeping my mindset and keeping my head in like, you don't, worrying is not going to help. Like you can't control this. I can't control what's gonna happen with my supply. I'm just gonna keep him close and my supply is gonna do what it's gonna do. Right. I can't control it. And.

[00:27:28] Claudine: I also didn't feel like I needed to [00:27:30] pump to keep supply or anything like that because I didn't feel engorged, but I also could feel that sensation. That's why I'm saying like be in tune with your body because I could tell, oh, like it's very subtle. If you're just going through your day and not paying attention, you won't feel it.

[00:27:44] Claudine: But I could tell my body was expecting him to show up. 

[00:27:47] Jenna: Yeah. Well that, yeah, your letdown reflex is, it's a trained reflex too. Mm-hmm. . So you're going to like, it, it, yeah. It will happen at certain times of the day, and it will happen [00:28:00] when, I mean, that's why we have our letdown reflex when a baby, we hear a baby cry because our body, like, we can train it to happen at certain times.

[00:28:07] Jenna: Yeah. So it's, I mean, not that you have, not that it happens consciously, that you've trained it that way, but Yeah, it, it, it's. You know, there's rhythms and patterns to it and it can be triggered. So it makes perfect sense that certain times of the day you would feel that reflex happening. And yeah, like especially at 20 months and with your third child, it would be very likely that your letdown reflex would not [00:28:30] be something that you would feel with any you know, like, Whatever, it wouldn't feel like that, right?

[00:28:35] Jenna: Electricity or like that intensity that a lot of times it feels like for moms at the beginning of their journey or I mean, some women never feel it, but yeah. And I think that that's like, so what I'm hearing is that that was really comforting for you to like, feel that, was that what that was like?

[00:28:49] Jenna: You felt like Yeah. Like my body's still doing this. 

[00:28:52] Claudine: Yes. I think I needed to just rely on what's gonna happen is gonna happen. I'm sure for other women it might be I need to pump to see that something's still [00:29:00] happening. Yeah. And I think you should do that if that's what works for you. For me, I needed to, so much had happened out of my control.

[00:29:08] Claudine: and I just needed to focus on what I could do and not trying to make something happen that might not. And I was just hoping he would heal. So I was really just focused on him healing and that's why I did skin to skin and holding him. I did offer, I was like, do you wanna try Milky again? He said, no. That's another whole thing.

[00:29:23] Claudine: We can talk about all the words that your kids use for calling. So. . But yeah, I mean, this was [00:29:30] just my experience and what my instincts told me to do. And I think this could have gone so many different ways, but it's the way it went for us. Yeah. You know, and I think it's important to hear. Lots of different stories, and I think it's great that you're doing this podcast for that reason because there is not one book on how this should go.

[00:29:51] Claudine: We all have different stories and whatever you're going through, there's probably someone out there going through it in a different, in the same way, even though everybody's [00:30:00] could be doing it differently. And I just love reminding women, just because someone's doing it differently doesn't mean either of you are wrong.

[00:30:07] Claudine: Yeah, 

[00:30:08] Jenna: absolutely. And. You know, that brings me to like, another point is that so many people come to me looking for the tips and tricks, right? It's always the tips and tricks that they want for. Yep. And I mean, this happens in breastfeeding from day one, right? Tips and tricks for milk production. Tips and tricks for latching, tips and tricks for weening, right?

[00:30:26] Jenna: And when it comes down to it, [00:30:30] Like, your body will produce milk, your child will latch, your child will Wean. All of these things are going to happen. Now, of course there are physiological reasons, you know, hormonal reasons why sometimes things go awry, and I get it, but because those things are going awry, that means we need to get to the root of the issue.

[00:30:51] Jenna: It's never really tips and tricks. Yes. Mm-hmm. And what I find. Clients who come into my program, for example, or work with me, you know, they're always kind of expecting [00:31:00] me to help give them all of these tips and tricks at first, but I say it again and again and again, like. , any cookie cutter, how to guide for any of these things, it's not gonna work for you and your family.

[00:31:12] Jenna: You know, like it might if a hundred people try it, it might work for three of them and then they write beautiful reviews and everybody feels like that's gotta be it for me. But what I actually do is I support clients too, just like you're talking about, to get back in tune with their body. right.

[00:31:27] Jenna: To understand the [00:31:30] unconscious relationship that they're having with their child. That that relationship understand where their stress is coming from, understand the, the boundaries and the lack of boundaries and all of these pieces, and how to meet your own needs. And then what I find happens, it always happens, is you learn those pieces and suddenly the tips and tricks mm-hmm.

[00:31:52] Jenna: come from within. Come with it. Yes. You know, like you will know what you need to do. You will mm-hmm. , take off your shirt and [00:32:00] put your child on your skin. Like that will be like an instinctual thing. And you'll say, oh, like I know that I need to hand express right now because I can feel it in my body. And yeah, that is actually the.

[00:32:12] Jenna: Very specific, exact right thing that you needed to do, and no one else could tell you what to do or, or how to do that. Nobody. Nope. Yeah, and so you can't write.

[00:32:26] Claudine: There is no book because we're all humans and we're all different. [00:32:30] And yeah. You know, when I did spend a few years doing, you know, breastfeeding support and volunteering my time, and I would have moms like, message me or text me and they're like, can you help me? And I'm like, sure. Call me. Like, well, can you just, and I'm like, I can't just tell you what to do.

[00:32:45] Claudine: Like I need to, we need to talk about what you're going through, what you've tried, what feels good to you, like we're gonna troubleshoot this and that's not a text conversation. And I agree with you a hundred percent and that it really is. [00:33:00] within you, and it's a matter of having a guide help you figure out what that is.

[00:33:05] Claudine: Yeah, and I think it's really important that the people that I did surround myself with from the very beginning and even through this situation that happened not too long ago, was that they were there to support me and listen to me so that I could figure out what I needed because I needed to un, I needed to unload the emotions and the sadness and the concern.

[00:33:29] Claudine: So that I could [00:33:30] then be in tune with what I needed to do. And that is, I think like the best support we can give each other is listening to that mom. We can't just fix it for them. Yeah. And I think feeling like, oh, I'm just gonna fix this for you. No, like you have everything you need within you, and I'm here to listen and support you, and guide you and provide you with knowledge because I'm telling you, there's a whole book of things that you can choose from to do.

[00:33:55] Claudine: It's not one answer. And the only way you. Decide what's [00:34:00] gonna happen is if you can make that choice. Yeah. And so when there's all of this distraction and emotions and hormones and all of that, like the knowledge that you can have to understand why you might be challenged in what's going on helps you then figure out where to go, right?

[00:34:18] Claudine: Yeah. And what to do. Like how did I handle the fact that I was tandem nursing my two, two girls and had nursing aversion to the point where I like was crying but I wanted to, I didn't. People [00:34:30] like, why didn't you stop? and I'm like, because I really felt like that was just, my body was telling me it was too much.

[00:34:36] Claudine: Like I could not nurse them at the same time. Right. I did that only once when my daughter was first born. I have one picture of that happening and I was like, that's too much. My body was like screaming like, whoa. What are you doing? Yeah. And I had to listen to that and be like, well, that's what I thought my tandem journey was gonna be.

[00:34:56] Claudine: I'd be able to nurse my two daughters at the same time. That is not [00:35:00] what happened. My body said, Nope, we can't do that. So it was one at a time only . 

[00:35:05] Jenna: Yeah. I man, I mean, Like, I, I love what you're sharing and when I talk about this with clients too I talk about it from like this lens of like polyvagal theory and neuroscience, but basically it comes down to the fact that when you are like in this overwhelmed state, like the stress state, you're in survival mode and you literally lose.

[00:35:26] Jenna: The ability to problem solve and to think [00:35:30] creatively. Yes. And it's, it's a wise thing. Your body's doing it very wisely because you mm-hmm. it, your body is reacting as if your life is in danger. Yes. And it like, You know, and that's, it makes so much sense and we're so grateful that our bodies do that.

[00:35:46] Jenna: But from that place, you're not able to say, oh, intuitively, I feel . You know, you need to feel and understand that you are safe before you can. Yep. And go into that place. 

[00:35:59] Claudine: I'm a [00:36:00] very visual I'm, 

[00:36:01] Jenna: I lost your audio. I don't know. I can't hear you. Oh, was that me or you? No, I didn't do. I can't hear you at the moment.

[00:36:09] Jenna: It's so weird. Oh, now you're back on. Okay. Okay, great. It might have just been me, . 

[00:36:14] Claudine: No problem. I'm a very visual person. You're saying safe, right? Cuz you're in survival mode. And I like to think if you've ever put your computer or your phone into safe mode. Or like battery save mode. Like if your battery's low and you have to like put this battery, [00:36:30] save what your phone is doing, your computer's doing is it's only doing the absolute necessary things to function.

[00:36:37] Claudine: It takes all of the other extra. Thinking out of the picture, and that's literally what our bodies do. I could not, for the life of me after coaching other women for two years, when my second daughter was born, I literally called my consultant. I was like, I don't remember anything. Can you just tell me what to do?

[00:36:54] Claudine: I know there's a solution to this, this, and this, and I, it's not there. The information was gone [00:37:00] from my brain and. I was like, hard going, like, to just be like, oh no, I know these things. And people look to me as somebody who understood what was going on. And I was like, no, I, I have no idea what I'm doing now.

[00:37:11] Claudine: What is going on? And that was when I realized, I was like, oh, wow. Our bodies just do things to Yeah. Make things right. And we can't argue with it. It's not like I could be like, oh no, no, we're fine. Can you just like bring all that information back please? No, you can't fight [00:37:30] that, that that's our instincts.

[00:37:31] Claudine: Like you, you have to accept that. And I did because my body obviously needed something else. I was focused on whatever challenges I was having. And I actually had a big oversupply when my second was born because my first was still nursing. And that was the joy of having a toddler nursing with a newborn because she was able to yeah, I feel like things didn't have the problem, right.

[00:37:51] Claudine: So bonus of toddler nursing. And I know, I don't know. I've always felt like the benefits of toddler nursing for me personally, have always [00:38:00] outweighed. the challenges, right? Like I love, that was why it was so hard when my son fell because I just love the fact that if somebody was upset, like we could just easily calm down and regulate and find our calm and then like talk it through.

[00:38:14] Claudine: Or I just, I will self-express milk onto cuts all the time, you know, like yeah. So it was just like, I just always felt like I would never. , that was just me, where I was like, I don't wanna lose this tool. Yeah. And so that's why it was [00:38:30] so hard for me when I lost that tool unexpectedly. Right. So in hindsight in a way it helped me understand that and this is 10 years into my journey, I realized that I was so much more than a nursing.

[00:38:47] Claudine: and that being a nursing mom was not my only identity as a mom. And I realized that I actually had all these other tools that I didn't realize, and it actually really [00:39:00] boosted my confidence as a mother because I realized that nursing wasn't the only thing. It was really important and I loved it. And I I still do.

[00:39:13] Claudine: But I think it's important to know that when we're talking about boundaries, that it's okay if you need a boundary of like, Hey mom, just can't nurse right now, but we're gonna do this other thing. And that's something that took me a long time to figure out, and that's why I'm sharing this because I've been a mom for [00:39:30] 13 years.

[00:39:30] Claudine: It took me 10 years to figure that out. So please, I really hope if there's just one mom that can hear this and that, yeah. You know, those boundaries are important and you have so many tools, and just because nursing is one of them, it doesn't mean we can't tap into all those others and utilize them along with our breastfeeding.

[00:39:50] Claudine: Right? Yes. Along with that tool of nursing, like use. , all of them. I was using only the hammer from the tool chest. Like you can't just use the hammer, right? [00:40:00] Like you need all the other things to fix things. And so I share this because it's very easy to be like, oh, she's a mom for 13 years, three kids. Like, no, I still wasn't figuring it out at 10 years.

[00:40:11] Claudine: And I'm still learning more things at 13 years in and I'm still going to, so yeah. I just, I love the fact that we can talk about these things because 

[00:40:19] Jenna: I think I have a, it's so important. Yeah, like I have a guide. You can, I'm gonna plug it right now, but like go to ww dot own your parenting story.com/guide and it's [00:40:30] a toddler communication guide.

[00:40:32] Jenna: How to Say No to the feed while still saying yes to the need. Right. And I hear this so much, is that parents have used breastfeeding as the only way to comfort your child, and I don't think that's a problem at all. Do it if it's working for you. Amazing. and then they start to get worried that their child will never be able to be comforted in another way or by another person.

[00:40:58] Jenna: Mm-hmm. . And I, [00:41:00] and they often feel that the, the answer to that is weaning. Like they just have to cut it out completely. But I love that you're sharing, like, it's one tool in your toolbox and it, it starts out at like when your child is born, breastfeeding. Nearly everything, but like catch their pee and poop, right?

[00:41:20] Jenna: Literally just be on your chest at your breast like when they're fresh and they can just stay there forever. And somebody would just have collect their, you know, [00:41:30] and poop. But then over time they, they grow growing capacity to have their needs. Different and more sophisticated ways over time. Right.

[00:41:42] Jenna: And the weaning process is really just moving away from that all in one tool to like a full tool belt toolbox and. The weaning process for me, it's like this training ground where you have the opportunity to practice other tools, always knowing that [00:42:00] breastfeeding is there for you, right? Like, yes. I was just on a call with a mom today who's like, you know, she's talking about toddler tantrums and like, you know, all of these different pieces, and I was like, okay, what's the worst thing that could.

[00:42:12] Jenna: Like what's the absolute worst thing that could happen? And she's like, okay, well he could be tantruming so bad that I would need to go to him and breastfeed, and the tantrum would be done in 10 seconds. Awesome. Thanks. You have all of this time to play and experiment and [00:42:30] try things out and have other people support him and do all these things, and you know that you're always going to be.

[00:42:36] Jenna: because you can always breastfeed him if you need to. Like Right. You know, it's like, right. Like so I love, I love hearing you say that. 

[00:42:45] Claudine: Yeah. And I think it's also important because we're showing our child that they have other resources too. It goes both ways. And this is an interesting story and it, it actually.

[00:42:56] Claudine: This is what came to mind as you were saying that my, [00:43:00] yeah, my second daughter was about she wasn't two yet and my, so my oldest was about, they're two and a half years apart. So she was probably like four. So they were like two and four, four and a half. Cuz right before she weaned, . And I remember my younger daughter was on my back in the carrier.

[00:43:16] Claudine: I was doing dishes, my other daughter was doing art and we're just doing life. And I knew my younger daughter was tired and she started to fall asleep. And my older daughter said, are you gonna fall asleep without Nope. And she was like, [00:43:30] yeah. And she's like, you can't do that. She's like, yes I can. She went to sleep on my back while I was doing.

[00:43:38] Claudine: And my oldest daughter was like, cuz they were still tandem nursing at that point. Yeah. My oldest daughter was, was like, wait, you can do that? And I was like, yes you can. And it didn't matter if I had told her ever in the past. Right. But it took her to be like, oh, you can do that. And then it was shortly after that because she was four, she stopped nursing at four years, four years, nine months.

[00:43:59] Claudine: [00:44:00] It was like December. And she was like, I think I'm gonna. and, but I'm gonna wait until after Hanukkah. And she did, she went through Hanukkah and then after Hanukkah, she stopped nursing. Yep. That's how, that's that's how it happened. That's how her weening happened. Yeah. Yeah. And we tandem for two and a half years and that's what happened.

[00:44:22] Claudine: Like . 

[00:44:23] Jenna: Yep. I love that. I can, I couldn't have planned that. I know. . 

[00:44:27] Claudine: And my other daughter, she nursed until [00:44:30] she was five years, three months, and she actually stopped within like the first month or so of my third pregnancy. And it's kind of like she started to nurse a lot less before I even knew I was pregnant.

[00:44:44] Claudine: And then I was like, Ooh, interesting. I think you did. For a reason like . Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, mommy, I, you know, I had an eight, a eight month, about a seven or eight month break while I was pregnant. That's, that was my little break that I 

[00:44:58] had. 

[00:44:58] Jenna: Yeah. [00:45:00] Yeah. I love that that she like noticed that. Oh yeah.

[00:45:04] Jenna: No worries. Hold on. You can edit 

[00:45:06] Jenna: this out. Oh, it's all good. Yeah. He's full of sand. Yo, buddy. Oh my gosh. He's 

[00:45:13] Claudine: so cute. You okay? Yeah. Okay. You just need mommy

[00:45:19] Claudine: milky, milky. 

[00:45:22] Jenna: Sons not Right. I totally understand. That's my life. My son, I literally locked the door. My, he's with my mom, so I knew he was okay, but [00:45:30] I heard him banging on the,

[00:45:34] Claudine: it's can't turn.

[00:45:42] Claudine: He's 

[00:45:42] Jenna: full stand. I love it. Of course he is 

[00:45:48] Claudine: you okay? Yeah. Okay. Sorry, 

[00:45:52] Jenna: interrupt. Oh no, you're so good. You're so good. Do you wanna keep talking while he's breastfeeding or do you wanna wait? Yeah, no, totally. 

[00:45:59] Claudine: I'm all good. 

[00:45:59] Jenna: So [00:46:00] good. . I'm so good. And I forgot what I was gonna say, which is of course normal.

[00:46:05] Jenna: Cause I always forget. That's ok. I was 

[00:46:06] Claudine: just talking about my two daughters. Oh, yeah. And 

[00:46:08] Jenna: how they, and how they weave. Yes. yes. So my daughter too. Like co-sleeping, so like sleeping in our bed. Like bed sharing, I should say more than just co-sleeping, but. , you know, we talk about like her sleeping in her, her bed, and we do all those things.

[00:46:22] Jenna: And then she was watching like a TV show, like a cartoon TV show where the characters were, had been sharing a [00:46:30] room and then decided to not share a room. And then she just comes to me and she's like, I'm gonna sleep in my bed tonight. And it was like, okay, guess . She slipped in her bed like we had, I tried so hard.

[00:46:42] Jenna: I tried all the things right, like, we're gonna, we're gonna get the space and we're gonna do these things and I would get stressed about it and all these things, which of course makes everything worse when you're doing it out of stress and anxiety and all of that. Then yeah, when they just like, When they're ready.

[00:46:56] Jenna: There's so much development and change that happens over those first [00:47:00] five, seven years of life that they, they're ready and then they see something and it, it ma, it clicks for them and they set those timelines up and it, it, it works so beautifully. Which I think is again, why you cannot write the guide for toddler breastfeeding.

[00:47:19] Jenna: Who would've told you to say, okay, well have your younger child fall asleep so that your daughter can notice it and Right. And make a comment. You know, like, it [00:47:30] wouldn't have worked. You can't do that. No, no. That's 

[00:47:32] Claudine: not in any of the books at all, . Exactly, 

[00:47:35] Jenna: exactly. I think that just, 

[00:47:38] Claudine: yeah, that just goes to show that we can.

[00:47:44] Claudine: we can plank all the plans we want and have all these ideas. And that we have to remember we're still half of the relationship. Yeah. And we're not the only one making those decisions. And they are developing and they're, you know, especially like with toddlers, [00:48:00] there's, you know, thoughts and opinions and they're also trying to figure so many things out.

[00:48:05] Claudine: And I love that we're talking and he is just nursing and grabbing my face. That's this is totally 

[00:48:10] Jenna: normal. Totally normal. I mean, yeah, I could grab my almost four year old and pop him on too. I get it. , he'd be doing the same thing. Yeah. I, and I, what I support moms to do. In the toddler breastfeeding journey is to understand their [00:48:30] needs and understand their kids' needs so that they're empowered to meet them in ways that feel good for both of them.

[00:48:36] Jenna: Right? Like, so that, and then the, the crazy thing is, is that once you do that, then. Your story starts to unfold in front of you. Mm-hmm. in a way that feels natural and good. And I see it where the moms are like, you know, they come to me because their child's waking up 10 during the night and breastfeeding.

[00:48:53] Jenna: So then I support them to meet the needs. And then their child just Wean on their own very shortly after. And they're like, I didn't, [00:49:00] I'm like, but once we take the pressure off of breastfeeding, then we kinda free. Ourselves up and for your kids up to make, to be empowered to make these choices and to, I mean, and how cool for your daughter too, to set those time, that timeline for herself and to say, this is what I wanna do.

[00:49:19] Jenna: This is what I'm gonna do, and then do it. Like, I think that, that's so empowering and beautiful, right? Like I love that. Yes. And, 

[00:49:26] Claudine: and I think also . , [00:49:30] it's important to realize, you know, I couldn't have written this. Right? Right. It's like our story is unfolding. We're living the 

[00:49:36] Jenna: story and we do have an 

[00:49:38] Claudine: impact on it.

[00:49:38] Claudine: Right? Like we are part of that relationship, but there's so much of my story that just is not anything like, I would've, I never thought I'd be nursing for this long, and that any of them would've nursed and. Past four years old. I mean, they all have, that is not what I thought. I was like, oh, I'm gonna go for the year, first year, two years.

[00:49:55] Claudine: That would be great. Like all of them have nursed over four years and you know, [00:50:00] that's just what worked for us and that's great, but it's nothing in what I intentionally went in thinking. I was just like, okay, let's see what happens. And that's what happened. So, and as you've heard, there's just, there's been a lot of challenges and interesting things that have happened and they're all part of our story.

[00:50:18] Claudine: And I think also when we bring the stress on that, it's up to us to make all these decisions and us to figure it out. They feel that, yeah. [00:50:30] and especially you know, I have worked with moms with weaning and trying to figure that out and they just wanna know like, how do I Wean, what is the process?

[00:50:38] Claudine: What do I do? And it's like, it, it's the same thing as all the other things. Like there isn't a how to book on how to Wean. Like it's gonna be different for everybody. And if we are feeling that stress, Likely going to bring your child closer to you, to want to nurse more. 

[00:50:54] Jenna: Yes. I call it the toddler breastfeeding stress cycle.

[00:50:59] Jenna: Yes. That's what it 

[00:50:59] Claudine: [00:51:00] does. Yes. So it's counterproductive to be stressing over when and how and this and that, and it's like we have to start, I try to help moms like, start with your expectations and let's manage those first. Because if you're going into this thinking, you're not gonna be nursing anymore in a week, that's not.

[00:51:19] Claudine: Yeah. If that happens, great. But don't go into it thinking that that's what's gonna happen. Let's just go on like this is the next chapter of your book and let's see how it gets written and like, let's see [00:51:30] how it unfolds. Because if you stay calm and you are able to kind of like bring on the boundaries and bring on how you feel it's best for you, your child will respond to that instead of.

[00:51:41] Jenna: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I have like, yeah, I could go into so many things. I have a whole course on that. I'm sure you could. Yes. Right. Like I literally do the toddler breastfeeding stress cycle and I go into attachment theory and polyvagal theory and how our nervous systems are co-regulating with each other and what that looks [00:52:00] like and what our kids' needs are, and.

[00:52:01] Jenna: You know, like how we are literally creating and shaping each other's brain chemistry and brain structure. Yes. In our relationship, you know, like this is what's happening. It really is this relationship and we're walking out that journey together. And yeah, you can Wean in a week if you want to, and there's going to be risks and downsides of that, and you need to be aware of them, right?

[00:52:24] Jenna: Like right. You know, it's 

[00:52:26] Claudine: more of the expectation, right, exactly. Like if the mom's looking for like, [00:52:30] I just want this to be easy and simple and be natural. And it's like, okay, well if you wanna lean in a week, that might not be what it looks like. Exactly. So let's make sure expectations are aligned with like what we're actually want.

[00:52:40] Claudine: Like you have to talk all of that through. And that's why it's like, I can't hand you a like a book and like this is what has to happen because. . There's just too many factors involved. And I think over the 13 years you know, my kids are now 13, she'll be 13 in six days. I, it's kind of surreal. My middle kid is 10 and a half and my son is four, [00:53:00] almost four and a half.

[00:53:01] Claudine: And through this process, it's, I've really just come to terms with, you know, I can't really, I'm not gonna know everything. And I've learned so much through the process and I have to not only trust them, but I also have to make sure that I'm trusting myself and allowing myself to be part of the relationship.

[00:53:21] Claudine: Yeah, I would say that is the biggest takeaway over my time with my kids is because, and that's kind of what they've taught me too. No matter how long your journey is, [00:53:30] you're always. and I like to talk to people and I actually don't tell people how long I've been nursing quite frequently because I don't want to bring on like the sense that I kind of know a lot or people to feel intimidated or anything like that, or from my story to make them feel anything negative about theirs.

[00:53:49] Claudine: And so I actually don't share very much unless people actually ask because I wanna support women in where they are. So that would be my biggest takeaway is really [00:54:00] accept yourself where you are. and know that that's just the part of your journey that you're in. We can't always know everything and we can't write the book.

[00:54:09] Claudine: It's really like we're living the journey. And I love what you're doing. I think I'm so happy that we have met and that you're doing this for women because we need it. Women need it. They need the support. They need the knowledge. They need to hear that whatever they're going through is okay and that there's no [00:54:30] wrong story.

[00:54:32] Claudine: There's just no wrong 

[00:54:33] Jenna: story. Yeah. Ah, it's such a pleasure to have you on Claudine. I mean, we could talk for so long and I will absolutely have you on Again. We'll talk and talk and talk. I know that you do, you have your, your business and all that stuff, so if you wanna just give a quick plug for what you do and I'll make sure that it's all in the show notes so people can, can reach out.

[00:54:57] Jenna: Yes. It's funny cuz 

[00:54:58] Claudine: my son is saying, can we go outside right now? [00:55:00] And that's literally what I do for a living is I help, I help moms simplify the outdoors. and essentially help them see how getting outdoors is not only good for their kids, but it's also really good for you. And I have basically helped share my knowledge in figuring that out in with my kids and making it easier and not as overwhelming.

[00:55:19] Claudine: And I have one-on-one coaching available. I have a group program that's gonna be launching later this year, and I'm currently facilitating and running outdoor [00:55:30] nature classes and working on opening up a nature school locally in my 

[00:55:34] Jenna: area. Oh, I love that so much. That's amazing. Yeah, let me keep me updated on that.

[00:55:39] Jenna: I'll share stuff if there's people in your area and whatnot cuz my kids go to forest school too and it's like, it's the best. I love it. So it's such a pleasure and yeah, make sure that you follow Claudia on Instagram and all those things. Everything will be in the show notes because she's got lots of wisdom to share and I'm sure she would absolutely love a DM if this story really connected [00:56:00] with you.

[00:56:00] Jenna: Yeah. She's not your head. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[00:56:03] Claudine: If anybody has heard this story, you can find me on Instagram at Outdoor Play Connection and you can talk to me about the outdoors or you can talk to me about your breastfeeding. I am happy to listen and 

[00:56:14] Jenna: support you. Awesome. All right. Thanks so much, CLAT.