When Death Still Scares You as a Christian

ind Your Place To Belong At First Pres: https://firstprescos.org/belong

Watch More Episodes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnLY-c1KPtO7a_Zw4LIVbMhbevfOMgApx

If you believe in Jesus but death, hell, or the afterlife still make your stomach drop, this episode is for you. Emmy sits down with Matt Holtzman to talk honestly about fear, grief, heaven, hell, Scripture, and the kind of hope that does not rush past the hard questions.

In this episode, you’ll hear:

• Why honest questions about death do not make you a bad Christian
• How Scripture, mystery, and pastoral care can hold together when answers feel incomplete
• One low-pressure next step if grief, doubt, or fear has been feeling too heavy to carry alone

Matt brings his experience as a caring ministries pastor who has walked with people through grief, final days, doubt, and fear.

Your next step: bring one real question into the light with someone you trust, and find people who can walk with you at First Pres.

Chapters:

00:00 Why Christians still fear death (and why it's okay to ask)

04:09 What do you say to someone who's afraid to die?

08:12 Can you really be sure what happens after death?

16:14 Holding faith and mystery together without pretending

24:21 What if you're afraid of hell—or for someone you love?

29:27 Your next step if grief, doubt, or fear feels overwhelming

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Jesus offers a place for us to be able to bring our problem with fragility and death. Because he gets it. He he gets it more than anybody. Hey Emmy, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

You're not Tim.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

No.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

And I'm not Liza.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

That's true. We're two people in foreign places.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

We are we work together a lot, but not in this way usually. True, that's right. You're here as the guest star today, and I'm filling in for Liza, who had to respond to an emergency, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Um, but we're gonna have a great conversation about death.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

All right.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Just another day. How does that feel to you? And life. We'll talk a little bit about life too.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

That sounds like a great thing. I'm okay with that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Well, if you've ever tried to follow Jesus, but you've still felt your stomach kind of seize and drop when people start talking about death, heaven, hell, or what on planet earth happens after this life, then this conversation is for you. Um maybe the question is not only what happens after death. Maybe the deeper question people are asking is, can I say what I'm actually scared of and still be safe to ask that question here? And I think a lot of people can carry that quietly, even in church. I know there are times that I have. And it can feel really lonely when everyone seems so sure around you. And you might be the one who's saying, Holy cannoli, what do I even do with this? Um, I still have so many questions. So if that's not you, you're not crazy. I don't think that you'd be the only one. Matt, I think you can talk to that really well. Um, but today Matt and I are gonna have a conversation about what it is that we hope for when it comes to the afterlife and when it comes to life, death, and everything surrounding that. So, um, but to start off, who are you, Matt?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah. James Matthew Holtzman. Yes. Yes, happy to be here. Um yeah, I'm my name is Matt Holtzman. I am the Caring Ministries pastor here at First Presbyterian Church, which actually feels really funny to say. Um it's it's a privilege to say, but it's a little funny because 17 years ago I showed up here as, you know, a rascally worship reel leader and really saw my life as one that was just gonna go down the road of music, and I'd be an 85-year-old worship leader, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

It'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Somebody wise came to me and said, Matt, there aren't any 85-year-old worship leaders. You might want to think about something different. Not yet. I was gonna be the first. Perfect. Um, I still consider myself a worship leader and you do often, yeah. Yeah, near and dear to my heart. Um, but to be a caring ministries pastor is uh is such a joy and such a privilege, and I love being able to um lean into that call here at First Press. Um and and yet, you know, as a caring ministries pastor, we find ourselves into these zones where um it's the best of times and it's the worst of times. Yeah. And uh so so yeah, I I it's a big it's it's an honor to be able to um embody this this this office, this place, this calling as a care pastor.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

And I've seen you and your team do that very well for, and I think I've been here less than a year, probably a couple dozen times.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

You've only been here less than that can't be.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

My first day was the first first day of VBS, and you greeted me in a blow-up bear costume, and Scott was blowing bottles over my shoulder.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

So that's your first memory of you.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

My first memory of you.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

You don't know.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

I mean, I've been coming to the church for a while, so like I'd heard you preach, but that was my first like good to meet you. Glad to be a good one.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Matt Hosman, who is that? Well, you remember the blow-up bear costume? That that's him.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Okay. Yeah. Anyway. We should talk about death. We should talk about death now.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Okay. No, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Yeah. So, Matt, you are talking a lot with people who are maybe dying, maybe facing the reality of death sooner than they thought it would happen. Maybe processing the death of someone who they loved, whether that was expected or completely out of the blue.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

When someone says, Okay, Matt, I believe in Jesus, but death and the afterlife and heaven and hell still freak me out.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Instead of answering what you necessarily tell them, right, because I know that you probably have some really sweet and caring answers to, what do you feel towards that person before you even start trying to answer the question?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah. Wow. Um so obviously when when I'm when I'm meeting with somebody, uh let me say this. I guess when I'm when I'm connecting with somebody who has just experienced someone who has died. Maybe it's been sudden, maybe it's been something that they've seen coming for a long time. And the loss is something that they've been preparing for, maybe. You know, those that they, you know, maybe it's a terminal diagnosis that they know they've got this amount of time perhaps left, and they're preparing for for grief, you know, they're preparing for grief, and we're having that conversation. And then when it happens, um, I find myself saying it like this that you can prepare all day long to take a trip to Jupiter. And preparation's probably a good idea, you know. But until you actually set foot on the planet and you breathe that air up there, yeah, and you put your foot down on it, and you realize I'm so far away from home, you know. Um, your your preparation isn't in vain, but where you are now certainly is a different world than what you were preparing to be in. Yeah. And where I try to do is just try to empathize, even though I myself might have not gone to Jupiter and had that particular loss, I try to empathize with where they are. Um on the flip side, you know, I get the and I it's so strange. Some people go, how do you how do you sit with people who are dying? You know? Like you're in your final moments, and people will say to me, How do you do that? And um there's there's a strange holy um there's there's a there's a a holy privilege that that I get and that people that I've that I've served with get to be in that space because the the um the layer between the temporal and the eternal is just it's so thin.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

The thin spaces, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, it is so thin. And you're right there with them. And for those that are in Christ, you know, and they you've known these people and they're laying their life down, it's like they're about to take a trip that, again, they've been preparing for, but they're gonna put their foot down on something that you're going, I have no idea really how how I can only imagine how amazing this is gonna be for you. Yeah. So there's a really sense of like I got front row ticket seats to a show, you know, um, of being able to usher somebody right up into that thin space.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

And um, and that that's a a deep privilege, you know. Um so I there is no blueprint about it, but I think one of the biggest words that I think about is presence. Being present.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Being present.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

That's what comes to mind.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Gathering my thoughts to ask the next question.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

I can keep talking if you like.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Um I think something that comes to mind for me when it comes to death shaping this thought. I don't know where it's starting, but we'll see how where it ends. Um death, heaven, hell, all that kind of stuff is I think that there is this almost question of assurance that comes up for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

I remember watching like a YouTube video or something a couple of years ago that was like, how sure are you that you know where you're going when you die? And I think they follow up that question with like, well, what do you believe? And I remember being kind of struck by that because you know, there's this belief that if I believe what the Bible says is true, then I should be 100% sure at all times. And in my mind I can feel that, but maybe in my heart that's hard to grasp.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Or maybe even my in my mind it's not necessarily solid. Maybe even in my mind it's like, yeah, like you say, like I'm 100% sure I'll be with the Lord. Yeah. But sometimes it's like, what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

I don't know. Like, do you have people talking to you about that often?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah. Well, join the club. Great. Some people think because I have an REV next to my name, or you know, it's so funny. Somebody saw my um my diploma, you know, after I got my master's degree uh through seminary. And, you know, it it looks really pretty and it says master of divinity, you know. The master.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

You know, everything.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

So I'm the master of God.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Great.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah. That's and I did it in just a short three years, you know. Okay, but with that title. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that anybody has the corner market on um God and or anything about the after uh, you know, the the real stuff, the raw material of the afterlife, you know. Jesus does. Yeah, you know, and thank God we get to be connected to him, you know, and can and are invited to abide with him. Yeah. Um, we get glimpses and sniffs of the eternal, I think, from time to time. And but, and that that's that's a wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit, you know. Um but no, I I'll remember, I remember a um, I just thought of this. I I remember one of my first visits at the hospital was um to a man by the name of Harry Sorensen. Harry Sorensen was a pastor as well. And um his his wife, Shirley, still over at the uh in at Garden Plaza, you know, get to visit her from time to time. Sweet, awesome lady. And Harry was just like so sure of everything. Jesus lives, it's awesome. You know, you should follow him. I do. And that's how he kind of moved through life. And I I loved hanging out with Harry because it was like, man, Harry, I just want a faith like yours. And a couple weeks prior to him actually dying, he knew that his time was probably gonna be cut short soon. And it was actually maybe a year prior to him dying, but he had just had major surgery, and he came, you know, right to the front row of his fragility. And and Harry, Harry at in that moment said, Matt, how do I really know what's about to happen? Like, if I die, how do I really know? I said, Well, Harry, you're but it was funny, like, here's this man who's got all the right answers that I do. You know, right answers. And um so I so I said, Well, Harry, what what it um what do you think? You know? And it was in this moment he he kind of said, Well, I mean, I mean, it it all goes back to Jesus, right? You know, and I was like, I think so, you know. I mean, that's kind of but why why are you saying that? You know, I kept asking questions, he's like, Well, it does say in God's word, um, what does it say in God's word? And then we Bible's like, well, let's get it. You know, and we then we opened up the Bible and we reminded one another of the red letters of what did Jesus say, you know, and we both were like, oh yeah, Jesus said, Don't let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God? Harry, you believe in God? Yes. Believe also in me, says Jesus. In my father's house, there are many rooms. If that were not so, would I told you that I'm going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I'm gonna come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am. All red letters. Harry goes, Oh yeah. So there was the word of God, the real words of Jesus, not my words, but his that gave him that assurance, you know, which I think is so helpful to us. If we didn't have the word of God, um our our best our best card to play is optimism.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Sure. So optimism is only gets you so far. That's true. I really try, but it only it only gets you so far. That's right. Me too. It fades.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

So but you know, we're all met with our limits. We all have our turns, I think, at times. Sometimes it comes quickly and suddenly and surprisingly, and we're and we're not ready for it. Sometimes the news comes and now we have to, you know, we have to sign up for the road of what it is to go down a long decline, you know, toward death. A chaplain once told me, you know, Matt, no matter where we are on the on the spectrum, life is about letting go. It's about letting go.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I don't know if I like that all the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

And so well, no, I don't think it well, welcome to being human.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

We're wrestling with the fact that we are in fact not in control of pretty much anything.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yep. And if we're giving up our own life, we're talking about death in this podcast right now, you know, and you know, in a fatalistic kind of way, we can just go, well, everybody dies, it's a hundred percent, and you know, whatever. But you know, we have to be reminded that we actually worship a God that number one has an enormous problem with death.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

He has an enormous problem with it, so much so that he would want to do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Oh my goodness, yes. Which is insane.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

And do something as crazy as come to earth as a literal baby.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

You know what I realized the other day? Babies can't do anything for themselves. True. Literally nothing. Right. And like that's how that's how God chose to come to earth and intercede for us. You know, yeah in death.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

That's so true. That's a good point. Yeah, and and we're we get there, but I think what's helpful too about Jesus is that he himself came to a place of not wanting to die.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

100%.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

You know, yeah. People go, well, Jesus knew who he was and death, like he he just he has that hope set before him, he could endure it, you know. It's and yeah, yeah, it's true. Um, fully God, but fully man. And there he is in the Garden of Gethsemane saying, Lord, you gotta let this cut pass. Yeah. If there's any other way. And I'm so grateful that he prayed that because we all get there.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, there are so many times when there's permission to get there. Yes. And that we have the great high priest that did all of that before us, that we don't have to wrestle with all of these things in our own minds and thoughts and chaos that happens inside our little brains. We also have, you know, the Lord who went before us and experienced all of these things.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Amen. Dang. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Okay. But for the person who feels like everyone is just kind of guessing when it comes to what happens after death, how do you personally hold faith and mystery together without pretending that it's just super duper simple?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

That's a great question. Yeah, because I think some people they unfortunately will only get a certain view of what it is to be a Christian who's human. You know, they'll come into church and they'll get a flyover of what faith in Jesus looks like. And they go, okay, as long as you have all the right answers, you're gonna be in good shape. And but you know, Jesus encountered people all the time during his life here on the planet that were faced with doubt, fear, um, fragility, you know. And he went headlong into those places and didn't shame anybody for being there. But he just met them where they were. And I think the same is for us here today. Jesus offers a place for us to be able to bring our doubt and our fear, our anger, even, you know, and our problem with fragility and death. Um, because he gets it. He he gets it more than anybody. Yeah. But um, you know, I think you you talked about the holding the value of what you you said um mystery and the assurance of our faith.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Um the the things that you're like, this is for sure, and also what?

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah, exactly. Um, I wasn't planning on saying this, but here in a couple weeks, and I don't know if this is gonna air after I preach or before, but wherever you are in the world, you're welcome. But I'll be preaching on Romans 11, where where Paul comes to this point, um, at the end, he says a whole lot of brilliant, wonderful things about what the gospel is to everyone.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

And at the end of 11, he says, he just kind of launches, catapults, kind of catapults up into this um this song almost. I almost wonder if he sang it. But it you know, it says doxology, and he says, Oh the depth of the riches of the let's see, oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God. How unsearchable are his judgments, and his paths are beyond tracing out.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

And then he goes on to say, Who has known the mind of the Lord? He's kind of throwing it out there.

SPEAKER_03 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Um, I think he's quoting Job. Who's been his counselor, you know? Um, who's ever given to God that he should repay them? It's kind of rhetorical questions he's throwing out there.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

And then, and so he throws out all these things of just going, what a mystery this is. And there have been many times in my work, but also just in life, where you just have to say, This is a dotted line. I don't think we can actually connect it. Yeah, you know. We've got a lot of wonderful things we're gonna ask Jesus on the other side of the veil, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

That was one of my questions for you. Like when you think of your life after death, when you think of eternity, what are you most? I have two questions for this one, but what are you most excited for? Yeah. And then what is the thing that you hold with like the most trepidation or like the most fear personally?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Hmm. Of life after death? Yeah, or just the process of dying?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

The process both, either one, yeah, whatever comes to mind with that.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah. I um man, well, as far as suffering goes, and I've seen my fair s share, but I also feel like I've been at the lunch table, next to the lunch table where all that's happening, you know, where you kind of you get a view and you're going, oh man, that looks really hard, you know. Um glad I'm not sitting over there, you know. But you're feeling for people that are over there. Yeah. That's where I am, and that's kind of, you know, but um, and so I find myself preparing. But but I also um in suffering, I find people uh coming to a very what I would call a tangible faith in Jesus. They know what it is to be comforted by God because they've gotten to a very uncomfortable place that they can't even words don't even describe, you know. But Jesus meets them there in a very tangible spot. And that's that's a wonderful thing. And thinking about the afterlife, um what what what gets me excited? This is gonna sound churchy.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

There there's a wonderful verse at the end of Revelation where the phrase is they will see his face. Yeah, you know, in Revelation 22. And I there's what's he look like?

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I mean, I'm looking at you right now, smiling at me, you know. This is this is a wonderful space, you know. Yeah. And there's something about the countenance of Christ and just looking at him. Now, this is weird. Like, you could look at me, you're gonna get bored here in a couple minutes.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

So long, Matt.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Like, can I please look at something different? You know, this ugly man. But I mean you know but I think I think to look upon the face of Christ is is never gonna get boring. Yeah we don't we don't even have a brain to to to understand that you know um sometimes I wonder like when God made Adam in in this perfect garden and he breathed into him he woke up what he saw you know just no sin there there's no fear there's no crying it's just like the ruach of God just came in and it was like I'm where I want to be that is forever that is a really cool thought I've never enjoyed it and to relive that that um breath yeah you know I'm gonna take a breath in heaven and breath of Jesus is gonna be right there you know that gets me excited I don't even know what I'm talking about that's amazing that's amazing yeah because you know if I you know my wife knows that like if she's taking a nap and I just come right in front of her show her my face and then go I don't think it's gonna have the same not quite the same as like what's gonna be definitely a better experience for you seeing the face of the Lord than for Brooke.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

I'm I'm playing two two inches away from her. Yeah that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah I'm also you know people will ask hard questions about heaven like yeah will I see my wife yeah will my dog be there you know will my I mean there's a lot of um will will we recognize you know one another and that that kind of thing um the cop out to all of I I actually think any any kind of fulfillment that we could possibly have in seeing my wife seeing my dog you know will we recognize one another is going to be totally eclipsed by looking at Jesus. Sure. We don't understand that because we know how dear these other things are to us you know but as dear as that is to us here in the temporal I think whatever it is that's going to be there is just going to be unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah you know it's another thing that comes to mind I kind of want to ask you about like what what do you say to people who are like afraid of hell and not in like uh or afraid and this is I think what I carry more afraid of hell on behalf of other people and and to a certain extent even myself but more like the people who I love who I'm like I don't I don't know if I either know that they are not saved yeah or I don't know if they are saved. Right. What advice would you give to maybe that person who's struggling with that back and forth either on their own behalf or behalf of someone else of like how do you engage in love well in that situation and still foster hope for the future. You know? Yeah and for life and not being afraid to the point of just not doing anything.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah no that's good it's it's a nuanced thing with me sometimes because you just kind of want to know where the ball is with with people in their in their under like what are they asking you know or where are they um you know hell hell that's a whole nother podcast probably is just hell.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Bring back Liza for that one.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah yeah we'll get Liza out on that and maybe I can bring Mateen in you know or something. And and you know when you look at when you look throughout the Bible and throughout history the concept of hell has kind of taken a different um understanding you know in the Hebrew context of what hell would be shale you know it's it's this it's this far away place of the dead where God is not you know you don't get to really get glimpses of like um gnashing of teeth and burning you know um kind of you know red guy with pitchfork kind of kind of imagery that sometimes it can be dramatized but where where you'll find that more evidence in the New Testament um the Greek word of I can't believe I'm actually going into these words. I shouldn't be talking Greek but I think it is gehenna and Jesus uses that word um in Matthew 25 when he starts talking about the separation of the sheep and goats and so forth. So it so for just a second we have to remind ourselves it is a place that Jesus talks about that and and so there are some people that just want to say well if we just don't talk about it we don't have to now I don't think we actually need to glorify it. If we start glorifying hell and make it you know in in the and we bring it into the hall of mirrors and make it bigger than it actually should be for us in in its scariness that kind of thing it should it should frighten us but it should frighten us in in a way of saying it's not what I was created for. I was created to be with God. Yeah and if hell is that place which is furthest from him I don't want to go yeah I don't want to be there. Yeah now what I well I think what I want to say to somebody who's who's struggling about I don't oh my person um my friend my family member I don't I don't sense that they're in Christ you know I I want I want them I want to be with them yeah for all eternity yeah amen and I would say let that just be a good motivator for you to be able to ask the Holy Spirit Lord could you help me um navigate this relationship in a way that's pleasing unto you but that points this person into the eternity that that you're calling them into. Yeah you know um it's also a helpful thing one of my favorite Bible verses to go to in any kind of context is Romans 8 at the very end because it will say nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in in Christ. Yeah love of God in Christ and nothing you know which I love.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Which is that's a lot of things that we could try to have separate us from the love of God and that's right. He lists all these different things it's nothing.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

Yep yeah and it's up to the Lord to be able to be the judge it's not for me. Yeah but he has called me into his marvelous life to be a witness you know to those around us yeah that's a whole nother podcast isn't it how to witness to those that are difficult to witness to yeah and how to love people well and yeah when you sometimes don't want to do that. That's right I don't want to be part of that podcast either who should do that podcast.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Yeah Tim can come back on for that podcast. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Are you taking notes Ryan?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

We got we got other podcasts coming yeah is like you have six new podcast ideas okay um one final question for me okay it's a little bit more practical for the person who has been listening who maybe has felt kind of similar things to I have what I have felt about hell or confusion about what it looks like what life looks like after you die what um if they're wrestling with grief if they're wrestling with um maybe a family member or friend who's suffering right now who's approaching death what is a next step that you would encourage them to take on a journey towards faith out of fear towards hope?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah yeah wow well for any of you that's listening to this podcast right now and you're in that place of grief you're in a place of doubt um I talked to somebody last week that was actually in a place of just saying I think I'm ready to give up my faith um what what I think what I want what what what I would want to say is being able to navigate those places all by yourself is a losing battle and sure so um just kind of as a a macro look at things caring ministries is here yeah we always love to say no one hurts alone that's true and so we one of the things that we love doing is connecting people with people because God's grace and goodness and healing comes through the wonderful tools of people you know you do a phenomenal job of that truly thanks we're all in it we're all in it you know so reach out to caring ministries if you um if you're in that space because um we we have we have resources and people available yeah um not not to not to fix you you know not to just say well you got a problem so we got to make sure that that's dealt with but just to walk alongside you um but I think what I also want to say sometimes what happens when people climb into the deep hole of either suffering or doubt or fear anxiety all these places it can feel like the character of God changed and that's actually not the case you know um I always think of two pillars as we think of our faith is that God is sovereign he's always in control but he also can't help himself but be good. Yeah he's sovereign and he's good if you take either of those pillars out the whole thing kind of collapse. Yeah um we don't have just a good God that forfeits his sovereignty and we don't have a sovereign God that's fully in control that's out to get you he's both of these things and he's not going to jeopardize either of those places. So be reminded that you you've got a God over your life right now who loves you and who's in control and you can trust him.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah that's probably where I am right now same honestly I think there's a lot of things watching my friends wrestle with things wrestling with things myself that if you can't come back to those two things that was really well said of just like I'm gonna hold on to something and that feels like good things to hold on to a sound when you can't hold on to him yeah he's gonna hold on you to you anyway. Amen yeah well said okay Matt so we talked a lot about a not super fun topic of death and suffering and the afterlife and heaven and hell and I think what I learned the most and what my major takeaway was today is that as we process all of these things and every single one of us will be processing these things we can trust that we have a loving and caring God who wants to see us reunited with him. Yeah. Who wants us to see his face and who will not just be with us there in heaven. I think a lot of people kind of think about God as just a heaven-bound being but is here walking with us now through the power of the Holy Spirit. And to be able to open up about those hard conversations and be able to say what do I do when I'm questioning these things? What do I do when I'm worried about the people I love what do I do when I'm worried about myself or I'm unsure and being able to say you know Holy Spirit help me believe what is true and give me the people and the relationships to comfort in the midst of that and yeah thanks for thanks for sharing. You're welcome thanks for being a steady caring minister I know you said that title feels weird but you fit it well.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Thank you an honor to be here it's good thank you