159- What is Spiritual Health?

If we pastors don't know what we're aiming at, we'll never hit the target.

It's essential to have the right target, and there's no question that the Biblical target is to equip saints unto spiritual maturity and spiritual fruitfulness.

Join Bill Holdridge and Pastor Matt Valencia as they put skin on this topic, helpful for any pastor anywhere.

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For Poimen Ministries, its staff, ministries, and focus, go to poimenministries.com. To contact Poimen Ministries, email us at strongerpastors@gmail.com. May the Lord revive His work in the midst of these years!

Transcript

159- What Is Spiritual Health

Welcome to Strength for Today's Pastor, conversations with current senior pastors and leaders which will strengthen and help you in your pastoral ministry. And now, here's your host, Bill Holdridge of Postman Ministries. Welcome to podcast number 159 of Strength for Today's Pastor.

And I'm looking forward to this conversation with Matt Valencia. He is the senior pastor of Regeneration Church in Scotts Valley, California, and formerly pastored Calvary Chapel of Gilroy, a church that he actually started himself, passed that on, and then before that, on staff at Calvary Chapel San Jose, and before that, down in Golden Springs with Pastor Raul Reis. And it's just great.

I've known Matt for a lot of years, and he's just a good brother. And Matt, I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. We talk to each other from time to time anyway, but you're just an interesting dude, man.

I just like talking with you. You always got interesting, insightful things to say, and I appreciate it so much. So today, we're going to be talking about a subject that you just introduced in our pre-podcast recording discussion.

We're going to talk about spiritual health. What is it? What does it look like for the church and for individuals? How do we know what spiritual health is? How do we know what we're supposed to be aiming at in trying to develop spiritual health within ourselves and within people? So that's our subject, and that's germane to everything that pastors are about, right, Matt? I mean, that's what it's about. Yeah.

Well, Bill, I think we've all seen in the, can you believe, four years now? Four years since 2020. Wow. And in the last four years, I have a friend that had a band called Expose the Flaw, and it really seems like in the last four years, we've seen a lot of flaws being exposed.

Like things that Christians put their hope in, then all of a sudden, Christians that stop coming to church, people that start taking on causes rather than following Christ, looking at cultural narratives rather than Scripture, holding on to Scripture, but with anger and divisiveness. So all of these things have just been tumultuous. And I think the thing that's been nearest to my heart is there's so many subtopics.

We could talk about the LGBTQ culture type of things or political things, or we could look at people's views on politics or COVID or whatever it might be. You know, I don't even know if I could say that if you'll get this podcast bleeped out, right? So, I mean, that's how crazy our culture is. But I think underlying all of those, those things are symptoms to me of a lack of spiritual health of following Christ in a way that looks like Christ and speaks biblically, speaks the truth in love, and is full of grace and truth like Jesus.

And so those are the challenges that we face. We face it in every place in America, but also for our brothers and sisters around the world. Yeah, I like that.

I like that a lot. And it reminds me of, you know, what would it be like if we dropped in on, say, the church in Ephesus when Paul was there, or the church of Thessalonica when Paul was there, and just became part of their body? Would we be really having those conversations about LGBTQ or politics, or what do you think about the current Caesar? You know, I mean, maybe there's a place for that, but that wouldn't be what we'd be doing together. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think Paul addressed those things. Jesus addresses those things in Revelation, the letters to the seven churches.

Paul addresses these things in the letter. So in 2020, I was teaching through the book of Galatians. And at the time we had, you know, the shelter in place mandate had just gone out.

And I remember I get to Galatians, I think it's 419, and I was reading some different translations, and Paul basically is saying, like, I long, like a mother in childbirth for you, that Christ would be formed in you. But then from this distance, there's not much that I could do. He's writing letters.

He would rather be with them face to face. And here I am reading that and realizing that what my hope is for the church is that they would reflect Christ, that Christ would be formed in them. And it was really hard to stare into a camera because discipleship can't happen that way.

Even though you're speaking the right words of truth, there's not a dialogue. There's not face to face conversation. There's not answering questions.

And the other thing is you don't even know who's there. So during that time for some weeks or months, you just wondered, where are the people? Who's here? So we got everyone together, and we started making phone calls and broke up our church list and started saying, okay, you call these people. You call these people.

We just tried to check up on people. And what we realized also is one of the flaws is how disconnected at times people at the same church could be. So happy, like, oh, I'm so glad you called.

I've been watching online for two months, and I haven't talked to anyone from the church. And you realize that sometimes there's people that will attend on a Sunday morning, but they don't have other people's phone numbers in their phones, or they're not necessarily a part of a discipleship group or ministry. So we just realized, hey, that's something that we had been working on leading up to 2020.

But then when 2020 hit, we realized, okay, we've got to up our game and do a much better job of connecting people to one another in the body of Christ. And I think that Paul went through that in Galatians. Yeah.

What a great line, that Christ would be formed in you. And isn't that the passage where he was laboring and travailing together with Christ? And then I think about the Colossians 1 passage, where he said, him we preach, warning every man, teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man complete in Christ. And he said, now, this is the great mystery that I've preached everywhere among the Gentiles.

Ready, drum roll. Think of this, what this actually means, Christ in you, the hope of glory. And I pointed out to a congregation recently, I said, what that is really saying, we use the word Christ, we lose some of its significance, Messiah, that the Messiah of Israel, the one who came into Jerusalem on the back of a wild colt, and they were worshiping him.

And he said, the rocks would worship if these were to keep silent, that same one, the one who rose from the dead and is glorified with the Father, even now waiting to come back to receive his church unto himself, that same one lives inside of us, inside of human beings. And so for him to form his nature in us, is what you're talking about, and what Paul is talking about, what a beautiful idea. Yeah, during that time too, you know, I, again, going back to what name, you know, there's only one name under heaven by which we must be saved.

I think of Jesus asking the apostles, who do people say that I, the son of man am? That's the question. But things got hijacked in those years, the last few years of people replacing the question of who is Christ with, who do you vote for? Who do you stand for? What organization are you with? The question got shifted from the main thing to these lesser causes that are under the gospel, still important things to address in living out a healthy Christian walk as disciples of Christ. But those things started becoming at the forefront.

And then the culture would use terms where we're using the same lexicon of words with a different dictionary of definitions. So someone can say justice, and that could mean something totally different than a biblical justice. Someone can say, hey, we care about the marginalized.

And Jesus wanted us to do that. He wanted us to care for the poor and the immigrant, the outcast. But how we do that and how the culture sees that might be much different than the way of Christ.

And so we have to have discussions. And I find that that's probably one of the big things is learning to have conversations with people, even when there's disagreement. You know, social media has, the Internet really has just added fuel to so much divisiveness and poor theology and made it about soundbites and things that people would say online would never usually say face to face if that were in a discussion.

Yeah. So what does Christ being formed in us look like? And how is that, use your word, a marker of spiritual maturity and spiritual health? Right. Well, when you consider abiding in Christ, when we abide in him, we're going to bear much fruit.

As we bear fruit and the fruit of the Spirit comes into our lives, it's not just about having right beliefs, which is obviously important, because if we don't have right beliefs, then we miss the whole gospel. We miss Christ altogether. But in those right beliefs, there is the fruit of the Spirit of love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

These are things that are markers in the Christian life. And sometimes the culture, and this is both within the church and outside of the church, instead of looking at that fruit along with theological truth, people will say, well, love is love. And they'll take the word love in a different way to mean love means you must agree with me.

But when we look at the fruit of the Spirit of love, we realize that part of the definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13 is love rejoices in truth. It's not about falsehood. So we have to speak the truth in love.

So when I think about the fruit of the Spirit and how that is displayed in a person's life, what I saw in my own life is anger started to come up so much that I was angry at groups. I was angry at people. I felt that in my family.

I felt that generationally. And there is a righteous anger. There is a sense, hey, things aren't right.

But there are times when someone doesn't even know that they're doing something wrong. They don't see it. I think about Jonah and going to Nineveh and God telling him, hey, don't you know that there's, you know, 120,000 people that don't even, they're babies.

They don't even know their left hand from their right. They don't know what they're doing. Jesus from the cross said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.

And sometimes these people with poor theology and bad practices need to be engaged in a way where they realize I am for them coming to truth. I'm not against them. I'm not wrestling against flesh and blood.

But it does mean that that engagement has to happen in conversation. And that's one of the most difficult things today. And I think that listening is a skill as a pastor that I probably in the last 10 years have learned.

I would even go last four years. I've learned a lot about listening. So often I have so much pent up that I want to say so much truth, things that I've studied, and I just want to share truth.

And there are times that I could overwhelm someone, not from the pulpit, because obviously when we're teaching through the word of God, we're proclaiming. But in conversations with individuals or with groups, sometimes just listening to the person helps me to ask questions that make them realize that some of the premises they have might not be on Christ if they're Christians. And if they're not Christians, some of the foundations that they have their premises on really falter under scrutiny of asking questions.

So you pointed out that agape, love, God's love, defined or described in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, is the essential nature of Christ. I was thinking of Colossians chapter 3, where Paul wrote in verse 14, he said, And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection, perfection is teleos, which is maturity, and the word bond is the uniting principle. So agape, God's love, is the uniting principle of spiritual maturity.

So that's a marker. Absolutely. How do we tell? And you mentioned listening as an essential quality of loving and engaging with the culture.

It's something I'm not really good at at all. Well, you know, I learned the hard way. I learned that in a progressive city like Santa Cruz, you know, going up to the campus and no exaggeration, UC Santa Cruz makes Berkeley look conservative.

You can't really engage people if you're not willing to listen. And so much of it is in our culture right now is these little sound bites, these TikTok, you know, 15 second, you know, 30 second sound bites, watch so-and-so destroy this liberal. So in a sense, a lot of Christians are being discipled by short little videos like that.

And like, oh, that's a good thing to share. I could, I could destroy someone that way. And while the truth may be there, if I haven't engaged the person where they really see that I'm not against them, then often they're not willing to hear anyway.

And sometimes in a case in point, a local school board put up rainbow flag above the American flag without any kind of school board meeting with public input. They just kind of did this. And there was a pastor, a friend of mine at the school board meeting.

He said, hey, I'm going to be at this meeting. He said, this just happened in my kid's school. And I want to go there.

What do you suggest? And it was an evening where, you know, I wanted to go and I couldn't make it on that night. But I told him, ask the question, what do you hope to accomplish by putting that rainbow flag above the American, like, what is your goal in that? And then just listen before you say anything, listen to their answer. And I said, I would venture to say they will probably answer.

We just want everyone to feel inclusive and safe. And then ask another follow-up question. Do you think that that flag is accomplishing that? Because there's a lot of other people here that actually that makes them feel anxious and afraid or feel ostracized or not heard.

And as you're asking them those questions, sometimes in the answer of those things, they get the answer themselves instead of me shouting them down and telling them where they're wrong. And again, learning that by trial and error the last 10 years, but really the last four years of seeing at times someone shut down when they can't give the answer. And I'm more aggressive and then they just stop talking.

Or sometimes it causes them to elevate, you know, a gentle answer turns away wrath. So the opposite is also true, an aggressive word, a provocative word to try to provoke something in them brings wrath. And I've done that also.

Yeah, me too. And I realized that wasn't very helpful. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. We with that mindset, and I've been there so many times, especially earlier in my Christian life, I felt like I won that moment.

But I really, I really lost that moment with that person, you know, because winning wasn't the point. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I'm blown away. I just taught in, I was just in John 18, here Jesus is being arrested in the garden, you know, and he is going before these fake high priests, you know, Annas and Caiaphas, and he's before Pilate and, and he doesn't, he's not like attacking them. I noticed that even in that very intense time, he keeps asking them questions.

And I was going, wow, I would have never thought of asking them questions. If I'm in the position of them persecuting me. Yeah, wow.

So that opened up, I mean, I know you've done significant amount of work on the UCSC campus, University of California, Santa Cruz, which is the bastion of, like you said, of, you know, makes Berkeley look calm. Right, right, yeah. So you've been able to hone this craft a little bit on the campus, I suppose.

Yeah, somewhat, and I'm still learning. I'm learning from listening to other people as well that have been there longer. There is a Christian young student, when I was doing a men's Bible study on campus, he was going to leave UC Santa Cruz and he wanted to be a missionary overseas.

And he opened up that book, Operation World. He's looking at the demographics of, if I go to this country, there's this percentage Christian and there's these other religions. And then he realized on this campus, this is the perfect mission field.

And, you know, when it comes to pluralism and when it comes to the percentage, the low percentage of Christians. So he ended up staying in the area and then ended up getting a job there, worked at UC Santa Cruz. And so when we were praying about going up there and starting a ministry on campus, he said, he just asked these questions.

Are you ready to do that? Are your people ready to be protested? Are you ready if people would listen to your past messages online and post them and say this guy is coming on campus? Are you ready for the questions that they're going to ask you and not ask you, but shout at you, challenge you with? You know, it really caused me to pause and we pumped the brakes a little bit to pray and to make sure that our team internally had some of these questions. And how do we deal with someone that's divisive? And what we found being there for their, you know, their club rush, the freshmen on campus, there's thousands and thousands of students that are just walking around. And we just started walking around kind of like Ray Comfort with this camera, interviewing people, asking them questions.

And the questions really opened them up. It was funny, too, that they didn't realize the battery for the camera died. So we were no longer recording, but we're walking around with the camera and we're asking questions.

And we had this microphone. So this microphone is not hooked up to anything. But when you give, when you hold a microphone and you ask a question and you give the microphone, you put it towards someone, all of a sudden they start talking to you.

They would never talk to you otherwise. And these conversations, some of them would go 15 minutes, you know, there's some people walking around and they're saying, well, I think religion is the worst thing in the world. I think that, yeah, there's a lot of bigots in the church.

There's a lot of, you know, and, you know, we would ask them questions like, hey, what do you what do you think about the cancel culture? Do you think that the cancel culture is good? Oh, no, that's not good. We don't we don't agree with it. Yeah, because that's that's around lately.

Like if you say something wrong and those people are just canceled, would you cancel me if I believe to something different than you? And if they say no or it depends on what, then now we have this conversation. If they say no, I wouldn't cancel you. Well, why wouldn't you? Or if they say, yeah, I would, depending on what you would say.

Well, why would you do that? And and then we would start quoting from people who have used scripture to speak like Martin Luther King Jr.'s speeches are filled with scripture. And then we lead it back to the Bible and back to the God who desires human flourishing for us to be able to know that he created us for a purpose. And, you know, there were people, so many students, Bill, that came from the church.

Yeah, I used to go to the youth group. I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor and so many of them felt like there was no one that I could talk to who would listen.

I mean, sometimes that's a smoke screen. You know, they just kind of want to go their own way. But one guy that I was talking to in particular, he stood there and he he got choked up.

We stood there for a long time and then he confided. My dad, my dad's a pastor. And then he confided, you know, and I saw his life and I saw the way that he treated me.

And because some of the things you're saying are causing me to rethink these things. And I don't think I would have been able to engage in a conversation if it weren't for being able to ask some of those questions. Questions, that's great.

The big subject of what you're talking about, Matt, reminds me of this app that somebody turned me on to several years ago and I'd never seen it before. It's called Sharing Jesus Without Fear. And I loved it because it uses questions like that to help the person.

So there are five questions to get the whole ball rolling. The first one is, do you have any kind of spiritual belief? And everybody does. So, you know, you just let them talk and you don't try to interrupt them, correct them or anything.

You just let them talk. Next question to you, who is Jesus? And then, you know, everybody's got an opinion about who Jesus is. Just let them talk.

We understand that. Do you believe there's a heaven and a hell? And you just let them talk, yes or no. And they usually give the reason why they believe either position.

If you died right now, where would you go? And it's kind of funny because people that say they don't believe in hell or don't believe in heaven or hell, they'll say, well, I'd go to heaven. But anyway, you just let them go. You let them talk.

And then the last question is the one that really brings it into a gospel conversation. If what you believe were not true, would you want to know about it? Or you could say, if anything you've answered right now with these questions were not true, would you want to know about it? And who would say, no, I wouldn't want to know about it? You know, that wouldn't be a good look. You know, right.

No, I just I've used that at times. But, you know, you're engaging people that probably don't have any. A lot of them probably don't have any orientation, but you mentioned some do.

So interesting. Right. Well, another thing that happened in the last four years in 2019, I started I started at Western Seminary, started a master's program there.

And during that time in that cohort, we so, you know, Deanna and I thought, can we do it? Can we afford it? Do we have time to do it? And I finally felt like that was the time. I had no idea that starting in fall of 2019 was going to be the next three years going through seminary was just going to be so crazy. My mom passed away in 2020.

We had the fires here in Santa Cruz. We became an evacuation center. We we've been flooded out of our church and fires.

I mean, it's it's been there's been so much that's happened. But one of the things that helped me and this really gets to spiritual health and also spiritual health as a church and as an individual. I was thinking, what what did I have? What gifts did I have during that time that I saw that a lot of other people didn't have? And what I realized is I was looking at the world through a biblical lens, not a cultural lens, not a political lens.

I mean, I was looking through scripture and I know that there's some Christians that have a biblical view as well. But it was almost like they were using the news, almost like as a Calvary Chapel pastor. I look at expository teaching.

We want to allow the text to speak for itself and not overlay it with our own ideas. But I feel like so many Christians in conversation in the last four years were starting with a political thing or something that had just happened in a world event or someone else's response to something. Then they would look to scripture and look for scripture to back up their viewpoint rather than just allowing scripture to say what it's saying, God's message.

So we had a theological lens, number one. Number two, we had a community where there were people in seminary with me from probably 10 different states. I had a cohort of maybe 40 people, different denominations.

One church out in Oklahoma had maybe five pastors coming from that church. And I remember one time we were looking at a scripture and I can't remember which scripture it was. But I looked and he was just like he had his hands over his face and he had his head down and he was like in tears.

And I said, what's, you OK? And he said, I have been teaching this the wrong way. And just confession, he said, we were a word of faith church and we're learning to look at scripture. And I'm realizing that I was discipling, teaching people this wrong way.

You know, in the past, I would have looked at that person, oh, word of faith. Those people are off the wall. These people are, you know, they're leading people astray, which he even admitted, yeah, in some ways there were.

But his heart, he said, sometimes people look at this word of faith. He goes, in our church, God really was doing some miraculous things in people's lives. And this convicted me when I'm listening to him.

And he said, one thing I don't ever want to lose is that every time we would gather, we had an expectation that God would work in a person's life and change someone in a miraculous way. And I was like, man, I want I want to have that kind of zeal and that kind of faith that God is, you know, when we ask people to come up for prayer and they want healing, that God is going to heal someone. Not that he has to, because that's an overreach, but an expectation that when we ask, God really hears us and there's going to be some people that will get healed.

So, you know, I had reformed brothers and sisters in that class that were, you know, five point Calvinists. And one of our professors, Gary Breshears, did this brilliant debate with a guy named Todd Miles, who writes commentaries and books. He's a five point Calvinist.

And Gary calls himself, he goes, I'm a Calminian. He says, sometimes I look at scriptures and go, that's pretty Calvinistic. Sometimes that's pretty Armenian.

And he goes, and I'm a Calminian. And so these two guys had a debate about soteriology. But then afterwards, they prayed together.

And he said, I just want to let you know that Todd is coming over and his family is coming over. We're going to have lunch together because we can debate these things passionately and still be unified in Christ. And that, again, was a paradigm shift of learning to listen to other people and not labeling everyone that has a different view as heretical, unless they really are heretical.

Or ascribing motive, because I've been on the other end of people ascribing motive to me. It doesn't feel good. No, I know why you're doing that.

You're just doing that to get more people to follow you or to do. So I don't want to do that to other people. That was a helpful thing.

So we had community. Then we had loving shepherds to help us along the way so that as we're going through it, I would get challenged. I mean, I could feel the steam coming off my head in week one because I have different views of things than all these other people.

I've been a pastor for, you know, 25 years. And so I'm a Calvary Chapel pastor. I've worked my way through scripture.

I understand these things. And then you start realizing that you're challenged on some of those things. And so I came out of there, Bill, more convinced, more confident in what I believe as a Calvary Chapel pastor, but also with more grace in realizing that there are people that also take scripture very seriously.

Love Jesus and preach the gospel from some of those secondary differences than we have. Yeah, yeah. That's what I was going to ask you.

How has that experience affected your confidence in the pulpit and your confidence in the word of God to do what it does? Has it increased your passion for expositional Bible teaching or the other way around? You know, you basically just answered that. Yeah, it definitely has increased that confidence. It, those clobber passages that people pull out of context and they, you know, we would talk about many of those things and that that was helpful.

If anything, I feel more confident in realizing not only do we have the truth, not only is God's word trustworthy and infallible and inerrant, but also when I just look at if we really live in community with those three things, a biblical theological lens instead of a cultural lens in community with other believers so we could discuss things and we could talk about things and we could pray for one another. And with loving shepherds, which I want to be for my church, then what I see is the fruit is health. I see that as resilience.

I see it as being able to go through really hard things without becoming bitter or cynical and at the same time feeling more confident. And it's a phrase that I picked up during this time, having a humble resolve. I want to have a humble resolve.

I think about Daniel had such a resolve. But then after he's thrown to the, you know, all of the kings love Daniel. Like all of these pagan kings kept promoting him and loved him and wanted to, you know, they would say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to throw you to the lions, but I sure hope you're going to make it because I really like you.

You know, it's he doesn't compromise, but he they know like he's not trying to come against them. He just wants to follow God. And I think that when we do that, it's going to be controversial.

There's going to be people on different sides of things that are going to try to pull us, you know, and even even ascribe motive. You know, someone told me that for every mile of road, there's two miles of ditch. And we're trying to follow the straight and narrow following Jesus.

And there's ditches on on either sides of things sometimes. What do you think about this statement, Matt? And I've used this before, but feel free to agree with it, disagree with it, whatever you want to say about it. But we as a church would rather be known for what we are for rather than for what we are against.

I would rather be known for what I'm for rather than for what I'm against. What do you think about that? I would agree with the rather I'd rather be known for what I'm for than what I'm against. I want to keep the main thing, the main thing, you know, Jesus for the Son of Man did not come into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

So, yes, but there are times that our stance is going to be against. And it's not because we're trying to come against people. It's because the truth will stand against the lies.

Yeah, well said. So when that happens and people start to see you as it just happened today. There was a guy that that came into the church today and said, I heard I heard that you were the church or that you were the kind of church that doesn't allow gay people into the church.

And I was like, you know, one of the staff members said, where did you hear that? Oh, you know, I've been talking to people. I heard like, where did that come from? We've never said anything. In fact, we're come as you are, don't stay the same way like God wants to change us all.

We all have sin. So that's that's the message. The message is that God has a design for human beings, for men and women, that there are specific purposes and roles within our gender.

It's a sacred thing that God has for us. But sometimes people will hear that as being against. And there's nothing that I could do at times to change that unless I have the conversation with the person.

Right. Yeah. So I'd rather be for what we're for than against.

But at times, by by speaking truth of what we're for, people will interpret that or hear it through a different lens of, oh, you're against us. Yeah. Think about going to church in Corinth in the first century.

This would be a wild church to be in. There's fornicators there, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, sodomites, thieves, covetous drunkards, revilers and extortioners in the fellowship. They're coming to attend these services.

Right. And then they get converted. And Paul says, and such were some of you.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that when we consider Paul's letter to the Corinthians to like all those different even the division among Christians.

I'm a Paul, I'm of Apollos, I'm of Cephas. They they practice these spiritual gifts in a way where there was this air of superiority to other people. But isn't that awesome when when Paul talks about the gospel to them and he says, you know, for I deliver to you first of all, like this is of utmost importance, this resurrection of Christ.

And and what he does is he brings it back to the center. Yeah. He bring he is Christ divided.

So, yes, we we can have these conversations also right now with the pastors that gather in Santa Cruz. We call it the Santa Cruz Pastors Fellowship. We have Anglicans and there are Presbyterians, there's Baptists, Assembly of God, Four Square, Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, Lutheran.

So we're getting together like there's there's almost this recipe for trouble. But what's happened is that group has broken off from another group that doesn't hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. So when we don't hold to the inerrancy of if God's word isn't really God's word, if it's not inspired by God, it's only inspirational the way that a poem would be inspirational.

Then we're in two different lanes. And and so there's this kind of, OK, well, you guys go that way, we'll go this way. But then even within our group, lately, our conversations have been if we can't talk about our differences, how can we expect our people to talk about their differences? So can we can we model that? And what are what are the levels of essentiality? The to die for us, the martyrs that died for Scripture, you know, died for the deity of Christ.

You know, they held on to the gospel. Then then there are second level things that are very important that we're going to part ways on because it is so important that even though you still might be a born again, regenerated believer, our differences are so great that we can't minister in the same church together. You know, and then and then we're going to have times to debate and discuss and then things that we decide.

But if we can't if we can't exemplify how to have those discussions for our people and look to Scripture rather than, well, my pastor said this or my denomination said this or my movement says this. If we can't just look to Scripture together, then then we're doing them a disservice because we're dividing. I'm a Paul.

I'm a Paulos. I'm a Cephas. What you're talking about is earnestly endeavoring to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

There is a unity of the spirit that God has placed within true believers of all persuasions. So let's find the kernel, the core of what that is, and let's earnestly endeavor to keep and maintain that because God put it there. So let's keep it.

Keep it going as he's wanted us to do. We had the same thing in Monterey. We had the group that didn't believe in the Scripture and didn't take things in that way.

And then we formed a separate group and it was it was kind of like that. We had some funny moments like the time that the Pentecostal guy broke out in our pastor's prayer meeting in tongues and the Baptist guy sitting next to me was absolutely panicked, you know, and he said, I'm so out of here. And I said, no, no, don't go.

So I'm dragging him, you know, as they're taking a diving grab at him as they're leaving the room. Yeah, man, I long for the days when the debates are like the old worship wars about hymns or contemporary Christian music. Weren't those easier debates then than the things that are going on now in so many ways.

So inflamed now. So back to the subject of spiritual health as we kind of wrap things up because we're kind of moving into this here. But spiritual health.

So I'm going to I'm going to use the word spiritual maturity as a synonym for spiritual health. I agree. So let's just let's do bullet points here, Matt, you and I back and forth.

When you think of spiritual health, think of a word or a biblical concept that communicates that. So I'll start spiritual health. Hebrews 514, the ability to practice the word of God, to allow the word of God to help us figure out what to do and how to live this life.

That's spiritual maturity. Yes, absolutely. And in that, I think there's also the discipleship aspect.

You know, Jesus talked about if anyone desires to be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me. And as we know, that discipleship is it's learning from, it's apprenticing. It's and then we're to go and make every disciple that's mature should be making disciples also.

OK, so there's people in our lives that it's not just for me. I think it's not just so that I could have the right information. I think that's one of the changes for me, at least.

It's not just about having the right information. It's living it and then sharing that with others and helping other people to grow. I would also look at prayer and the word, you know, acts to all the marks of that first church.

You know, they devote themselves to the apostles doctrine or to teaching, you know, to prayers, to fellowship, breaking of bread, prayers. I look at spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines as just so important to the Christian life because I can't do it unless I'm abiding in Christ, spending time with him. So there's that's an aspect of how to get to that health.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a part of a marker of health as well.

Yeah. That's the means to the end. But it's also an end in itself.

OK, so taking that concept that you just just gave, you know, so what we aim at is what our heart follows, you know, where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. So if I'm aiming at what you opened with Christ being formed in us, if I'm aiming at that, then all of these means of grace that have been made available to us, we're going to utilize those. We're going to utilize the unity with the body.

We're going to utilize, you know, community. We're going to utilize the scriptures, going to utilize prayer. We're going to have a strong dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

How can we live a single second in this life in Christ without the Holy Spirit? Those are the those are some markers. Right. So they help us identify what the primary goal is.

Yeah. And and that that big part, again, going back to the last four years, isolation is, to me, one of the key elements in a person's deconstruction. Yeah.

You know, the catchphrase right now is deconstructionism. Right. But most of the people that go through this deconstruction are not deconstructing things to rebuild.

It's just burn it all down, burn it down. And they do it by themselves with Google as their discipler. Let me find these other videos.

And they they type in these key words. You could find anyone to teach you. So, you know, we need a community of grace and truth where someone has the freedom to struggle and ask questions and share that they have doubts.

And also that community of grace and truth tells them the truth and points them back to scripture. So it's not just saying, hey, I love you and I'm putting my arm, you know, around you. One gentleman that he spoke at that coming out again conference at a Calvary Modesto, his name was Gary.

And, you know, he had backslid and was was away from the Lord and just just went into a homosexual lifestyle because he had these temptations that he had never talked about. There was no one that he had ever shared those things with. He was raised in the church.

He said, I still believed in God. But then I got to college and I backslid and then I went into this other community, this other culture. But the conviction of the Holy Spirit was still there.

And he said, so I went into a church and they had a men's meeting, men's Bible study. And I was so scared. And he said, but because there were strangers there, I felt like I had less to lose of sharing my struggles.

And he said, and I opened up and I shared my struggles with same sex attraction. And he said, one of the men, older man, came up next to him and he didn't know how people would respond. He put his arm around him and he said, you belong here, brother.

All right. And he said, I just started weeping. And he said there was someone that was safe that I could share those things with that wasn't against me, that could hear these things that would help me.

A community of grace and truth is huge. Well, isn't that what John wrote about? The law came by Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus Christ. And boy, if we're going to epitomize his nature, it's going to be those two things.

I'm so glad you said that. Grace and truth. Throw one out and you don't have the other.

And you throw the other out, you don't have the one. You know, it's like truth without love is brutality and love without truth is sentimentality. You know, that's the phrase that I learned years ago.

But grace and truth. That's awesome. It's how we show God that we really love him.

We obey his commands. And it's a marker in our own lives. If I'm not going to obey him, you know, Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say? So, you know, and one more thing is that mission that he's given us the great commission.

It's not a mission. It's a commission. He's going to be with us.

He said, I'll never leave you or forsake you. As I'm sending you out to do these things, I'm going to be with you. And Bill, how much have we seen people in our churches? How much have we grown when we finally said, Lord, use me.

And I'm afraid, but I'm going to serve. I'm just going to take a step of faith. And growth happens.

Maturity begins to happen exponentially when we obey him and to make disciples. Amen. Amen.

So circling back to the big picture here, you're a pastor. I'm a pastor, pastor teachers. We're one of the offices in the church, according to Ephesians 4.11. We have been given to the church to equip the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ.

And then Paul says, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness which belongs to Christ. So here we are living in a culture where, you know, the one church model says our job is to do church well enough to attract the people. Another model says another thing.

But the biblical model is we're here to equip the saints for the work of the ministry so that people that are coming will arrive at spiritual health or maturity. Absolutely. I hope that's what you're going to teach at my church when you come in a couple of weeks.

Yeah. And along with that, Bill, it continues that no longer children tossed to and fro, carried about by every wind of doctrine. Yes.

It's speaking the truth and love. And then from whom the whole body, you know, in verse 16, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effect of working by which every part doesn't share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. So all the things we've talked about, Matt, are in those verses, Ephesians 4.11 through 16, all of that.

We've got community. We've got truth. We've got love.

We've got everything that we've talked about is in those verses. It's amazing. It is.

It is. A final word of encouragement to the pastors and leaders that are listening to this, Pastor Matt. Well, you know, Jesus said in Matthew 633, but seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you, you know, not to worry about tomorrow.

Tomorrow, you know, has its own worries sufficient for the days of its own troubles. And I really think for us as pastors to personally, am I seeking Jesus? Am I seeking the kingdom of God and his righteousness first? If that doesn't come first, it becomes about the building. It becomes about the function of ministry.

I want to seek him first. And then I don't want to worry. The kingdom is not at risk.

Jesus is on the throne. He is in control. He's not worried.

He's not fretting. And that helps me as a pastor to be a non-anxious presence for other people. If I'm freaking out about the future and what's going to happen, it's caught more than taught.

People, I could say one thing, but they see me freaking out. They're going to feel that. They're going to sense that.

So I just think as pastors, let's seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and not worry because he is the one that he's the king. So we're seeking his kingdom. He's the king, not us.

I like it. I like it a lot. Well, you know, thanks, Matt.

This has been this has been unscripted. This has been. Yeah, this has been like if I was there in your office there at Regen sitting down and we're talking and having some time together.

This is this that conversation we recorded a podcast doing it's been fun. Absolutely. Thanks, Bill.

I really appreciate you. I appreciate Poimen. I appreciate your ministry.

How much you do for the body of Christ. It is very, very encouraging. Well, praise the Lord.

And you, too. So that wraps up this episode of Strength for Today's Pastor with Pastor Matt Valencia of Regeneration Church in Scotts Valley, California. A friend and an advocate and a promoter and a discipler of the kingdom.

That's Matt. And he's got a wife that loves him and is supportive of him and got kids that, you know, just the fruit of the of the of the womb is the reward. You got a lot of reward there.

That's awesome. So if you have any need for pastoral assistance or help, Poimen Ministries, Poimen is shepherd in Greek or pastor in Greek. So Poimen or Poy'-main Ministries is available to help in whatever way we can.

So reach out to us. The show host will give you information on how to do that. Until next time, may the Lord bless you.

And thanks again to Pastor Matt Valencia for joining us today on Strength for Today's Pastor. Strength for Today's Pastor is sponsored by Poimen Ministries. You can find us at Poimen Ministries dot com.

That's spelled P-O-Y-M-E-N Ministries dot com. If something in today's program prompts a question or comment or if you have a topic idea for a future episode, just shoot us an email at StrongerPastors@Gmail.com. That's StrongerPastors@gmail.com.

May the Lord bless you as you serve him, his pastors and his church.