The How To Film Weddings Show

The Wedding Industry Problem That Nobody Talks About Ft Brandon Robison

• Jaired Sullivan

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Working with bad photographers, the turf war, is Video really less important than photo? Me and Brandon from Everwhere films decide to hop on a call to vent about the current state of the wedding industry.


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SPEAKER_03

There's like zero reasons why to create drama on a wedding day.

SPEAKER_00

It just frustrates me so much. Gosh, like, how hard is it just to have awareness about other people you're working with?

SPEAKER_03

Is that because they don't know? Is because they don't care. For some reason, almost everyone that I work with that has Vogue pinned uh are difficult to work with.

SPEAKER_00

I don't really care if photography wants to classify themselves as top of the hierarchy. If you want to claim that position, then you also need to know how to lead. The problem is they don't.

SPEAKER_03

The difficult photographers to work with are the ones that think that we're the second choice and that the the couple cares more about their photos than their video. And it's that chip on the shoulder that frustrates me.

SPEAKER_02

Interesting that they didn't hire a videographer. I was surprised about that, too. At the same point, it kind of made our job easier. I don't know. Oh, it definitely made our jobs easier. 20 times easier. What? Bro, what are you talking about, man? Yo, did you do that wedding just food's video? And I was like, no one. It was glorious.

SPEAKER_03

It was glorious. It's difficult to be seen as an obstacle. Our ability to create and our inspiration can get very muddled and disrupted by a photographer who doesn't consider us at all.

SPEAKER_00

Now, this episode is more than just venting about bad experiences on the wedding day. It's just about feeling invisible, filming weddings. It's about when your peers label you as burdens or obstacles. All of those experiences are real, and a lot of us just kind of brush it off because it's just part of the course. But when you have that experience again and again and again, it's very easy to want to throw in the towel. And that's where this conversation sort of begins at that defeat, at that point in the hero's journey where all hope is lost. But the truth is, no matter what the photographer thinks, no matter what any of your peers believe about what you do, the work reminds us that you do matter, that you're not a burden, that you're not an obstacle, that you are valued. The couple that sends you that voicemail crying over how much their film means to them, or the mother of the bride sending you a three-page email letting you know how you made them feel. So while we do air out some frustrations in this episode, we ultimately arrive at the heart of why what we do matters. This is the How to Film Wedding Show. Every wedding I go to, I'm just like, do I really want to keep doing this? Like, there's just things that happen. I'm just like, do I really want to keep dealing with this? Like, all right, photographers. Yes, like, or like photographers that you're just battling. Like, it's just like the whole turf war that still very much exists. Or it's like just little things start to irk my nerves after a while. I'm just like, I need to just chill out. I had one one wedding, I'll never forget this wedding. This was terrible. I mean, it was like we did the the welcome and uh the wedding day. It was like a 12-hour wedding day, and then like a three-hour welcome, and it was like a two and a half hour drive away, and we didn't stay. But the welcome, you know, we were filming their speeches and everything, and the the bride and the bride's mom said, Hey, yeah, y'all guys go ahead, grab a plate, get in line. Dude, we we did exactly what the bride and the bride's mom said, and the caterer came up to uh me and the photographer literally yelling at us.

SPEAKER_03

That's why yelled.

SPEAKER_00

Telling us that we aren't supposed to be in this line. This line is for the family only. You guys need to get out of here. Um, I mean, I was just like, hey, dude, we're just listening. We just like are following the bride's instructions here. She's the one who told us to come in line. So if you want to tell her that we shouldn't be in line, that you're more than welcome to do that. But like, I it was just like in front of everybody. I'm just like, dude, this sucks. Like, I like that's fine. Like, I'll leave, I'll go get food, whatever. Like, but like to just walk up to like other vendors and just start like screaming at them over like a plate of food. Just like you could just said, hey guys, I'm I don't know, did the bride say it was okay to do this? Like, you could ask, like, yeah, or you could say, Hey, can I talk to you guys for a second? And like explain a situation. Like, there's just so many different ways to go about that, like that whole ordeal, like literally just like berating us for getting in line.

SPEAKER_03

There's like zero reasons why to create drama on a wedding day, you know? There's zero reasons to embarrass somebody, there's zero reasons to have conflict. Like, there's it, it doesn't make any sense. It's wild, like, because some people get raised a certain way at home in like constant chaos and constant conflict is like their norm. And so it doesn't even like register when they're out in like the general public that this isn't how we act, you know. Like, I I think I worked like early on in my career, I worked for kind of like a toxic boss, and I thought, like, hey, people yelling at you and you being stressed is like common. That's just how working a job goes and having a boss goes. And then I wouldn't have like a good boss who like just treated me like an adult, and I was like, Oh, like when I do something wrong, we can have a conversation and then they can hold me accountable to doing better, and no one has to yell and call me bad names to like change help me change my behavior. And I think there's just people that have lived in this sort of like environment, this toxic environment of conflict, and then they like drag that nonsense into the best day of people's lives and think that that's acceptable. And I think that it's not just caterers, it's it can be videographers, photographers, may it could be any vendor, and there's just toxic people, period, and it sucks when you interact with those people, be it catering or anybody else, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think that's just the risk of any type of service industry that you go into. I mean, you're gonna run into uh situations that aren't ideal or your norm. Um and weddings are no different. I mean, I feel like gosh, there's most weddings, I feel like that I've worked are generally everyone's happy, everyone's like having a good time, like vendors like I mean, especially in like I guess North Carolina's considered somewhat of the south. I don't know, it's more east than south, but some people would consider it the south.

SPEAKER_03

You're like that, you're in the transition.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Or east to south, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We're in the in the middle there. But there is a obviously an aspect of like southern hospitality here where it's just like everyone's welcome. We treat everyone with kindness and respect, and like um and I find that it's it's a lot of vendors that are more north, like that I've worked, I've worked with like you know, photographers from New York or like Boston. They're a little bit more convertational, a little bit more zesty, you know, a little more zesty with their personalities. Um and I mean, you know, it's fine. I feel like I get along with most people generally because I just don't, I don't really I'm not, I'm non-confrontational. Like, even if it's frustrating me, I'm like, hey, do your thing. You got it, you got the floor. The floor is yours, and I'm just like, and then I'll come home and I'll yell and scream about it later. That's that's just me. That's how I decompress. But like, you know, I mean, speaking on photographers too, I feel like you've had some not so wonderful experiences with photographers.

SPEAKER_03

I feel like I've definitely rolled rolled the dice, you know, and got some lucky numbers, some unlucky numbers as of late. I don't feel like like uh it was like two years ago maybe that I ran into my first like just bad photographer. Until then, there was like one guy, poor guy. Uh every photographer I worked with was great. There was just one old guy who like just had back surgery, and like all he could do was yell at people, and he was just barely getting around, you know. And he was a nice guy, he just like we just had totally different visions, and I liked that guy, you know. But then like two years ago, I ran into this photographer that like the entire day was about her, and anytime she wanted a shot, she had zero hesitation to step right in front of me to get that shot. It was yeah, it was crazy. Like, we started off the day, and there were two hotel rooms that the girls were getting ready in. One like was like faced an alley, so it was like super dark, no natural light, and then there the other room was like the sun was coming in, there's all this like beautiful light coming in the windows, and she was like, We're gonna do everything in this dark room. And then after she kind of like slowly kind of got done, like finished up, it's like, Hey, do you mind if we like move some stuff into this room? And as soon as we moved everybody in that room, all the bridesmares are like, Oh my gosh, this is beautiful, everything's amazing. And that was just kind of the start. Yeah, and then throughout the day, it was just like I just noticed every time there was an important moment, like she just stepped right in front of me. Like, bride crying, didn't walk around me, just stepped right in front of me. And so, anyway, that was that was my start, and I've been pretty good since then. But the last two weddings I filmed have been fun, to say the least.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I do want to talk about those because they I feel like the conversation needs to exist in an obviously constructive manner. I mean, because it's just more so about exposing like how we should uh value and treat each other's working professionals. Because I just feel like there's no I I feel like there is no reason, like you said before, there's no reason why you no that you can't get along on wedding day. Like there should be no reason why. There should be no reason why like photographers can't just simply ask. Be, you know, like if there's anything we need, if you know, if they can be like do anything to like help in certain situations, just like we would offer that same courtesy. Um, like for instance, I mean like when you start the day, generally photographers doing detail shots. Like, I don't tip particularly need detail shots, but like I'll be a helping hand. I'll like help you know put a dress in a high place, I'll I'll pick up details and carry it into the room, whatever, like whatever you need. I mean, I'm we're all there to help each other. And it's like if we can just carry that into the like the aspect of actually capturing and documenting, like it'll just make things so much easier. My favorite photographers are ones that just like like, hey, like uh, you need some more like motion here, um, or like do you need anything specific during this section? Or hey, let's do it again for video. Like, you know, just like offering like multiple takes. It's like, oh, it's just like it just makes it so much easier. Like, I'm gonna tell like seriously, like every photographer that does that, they become like top of line when it comes to, and I don't get to recommend photographers really much because photography gets booked before me half the time, but when I do get that opportunity, oh, you bet your bottom dollar, I'm recommending those the ones that always like just value what me being there too. They like know how to work together well and like just make each other's lives easier. It's a stressful day. We're we're there for 10 plus hours, like we're going through it with each other. Like, let's not make it worse. Let's not make it worse.

SPEAKER_03

Most photographers, I feel uh uh the higher percentage of photographers do those sorts of things, which is great. Some of them will overpose and they won't try to incorporate motion. A lot of my favorites are the ones who are like, hey, keep moving, keep doing stuff, they're looking for more candid stuff, they're giving prompts and keeping their poses to a minimum. Obviously, if you're doing, you know, editorial, you're gonna do some poses, you know, and that's totally fine. I can I can work with some of that. But like, then giving us the space, hey, do you need anything? Would you like something here? Would you like for me? Like, would I always ask, let's dang it. Screensaver, I'm gonna turn you off. I always ask, um, hey, do you mind if I grab this this symmetrical angle for a second? You know, because we're always like just to the side of a photographer, and so they often have like everything lined up, absolutely perfect for the shot. And it's just like, can I just like get this little like moment where they're both of their heads are like behind like there's that perfect little window behind their head, and everything looks perfect. We always get like everything slightly off because we're not, you know, we're not taking position. Like when I start, I always go, hey, you take position, and I not just when I meet them, but like throughout the day. Cake cutting. Hey, you pick your spot, I'll work around you. And what I don't say is just don't walk in front of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I have to sometimes say, hey, hey, what has to be said, yeah, yeah. Sometimes it has to be said. Otherwise, it's like you take the you take your position, I'll work around you. But if you want to walk, you know, change your angle, just walk behind me or give me a little, like, hey, do you mind if I, you know, as long as somebody says, Do you mind if we switch for a second? Hey, great, we'll figure it out. Um but it's like those those like common courtesies of being conscious, and you can tell the ones that are conscious and the ones that are not conscious. And I think that the ones that are that in my experience seem unconscious of things is not because they don't know, is because they don't care. You know, it's like it's it's sad. There's a lot of great photographers that have Vogue on their pinned Instagram stories, but for some reason, almost everyone that I work with that has Vogue pinned uh are difficult to work with. Not every one of them. The ones that have been difficult to work with have Vogue pinned. Uh not that everyone that has Vogue pinned has been difficult to work with, but it's because those particular people are very concerned about their Instagram profile and not very concerned about the entire experience.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, everyone's experience, the entire wedding day. It's like they're willing to sacrifice a make it difficult to make a good video so that they can have their profile, uh, their portfolio picks, you know? So, I mean like I've had the thought, like, hey, how about we like make like a general set of rules we all can abide by when working with each other? But I have a feeling the people that are difficult to work with that I I've had difficulty working with, like, wouldn't care in the least. All the people that are easy to work with, they would actually like try, but they're not really the issue, you know?

SPEAKER_00

There is more good than bad. I feel like obviously the bad that we do see it's just it can be unfortunate um in the moment, but I mean there's a lot of photographers out there that I've worked with that have been incredible. And a part of me does want to believe that there's some aspects of like the limited knowledge, not saying that in the wrong way, but of how video like like the needs of what a videographer needs in in that moment. Like, I feel like there is still probably a learning curve like from some photographers that you know they just don't they don't get it, they don't understand. Um, I mean, kind of like that video I did two years ago by that one photographer that was saying, like, you can be how you can be the best videographer if you make oodles and oodles of money. Um, I don't think he really learned a lesson there from that video, but like it's like that mentality, that mindset of I don't understand why you need what you need, but here's what I need from you. So it's almost like it's the the photographers that have control issues that, you know, I don't really care if photography wants to classify themselves as top of the hierarchy. If you want to be, if you want to claim that position, then you also need to know how to lead considerately, effectively, empathetically, like consciously. But like the problem is they don't. You know, I don't even want to put that out there because like because I don't really want photographers to have this like sense of I'm a I'm above you. That's not really what I'm necessarily talking about. I guess I'm just trying to get at, like, I just if you want that position, you need to understand what it comes with. Um and there's a lot of a lot of things that go in line with being a leader that not all of these photographers really understand or care. Um yeah, it just I don't know. I feel like it's just so jaded, so the relate not saying all relationships with photographers and videos are like this, but it's just like the ones that you do run into, man, it just makes the whole day suck. Yeah. Let's just be honest with ourselves for a second. If you're a wedding filmmaker and you've been doing this thing for four or five years, even if you've been doing it for two, if you film 20 to 30 weddings a season, you've probably felt it at some point. The pressure, the stress of deadlines, staring at empty timelines, watching your backlog continue to rise while you're filming weddings on the weekend, you're doing family stuff during the week, and you start to wonder, how in the heck am I gonna be able to sustain this? Truthfully, that's the big question we all ask ourselves at one point because that fire, that passion, that hustle, that grind, that ambition that we had so fiercely at the start of this journey does start to dwindle because we get exhausted, we get tired managing everything by ourselves. And that's really where you start to realize that when it comes to entrepreneurship, when it comes to running a business, you need help. You need people that can be in your corner to alleviate some of those burdens so that you can get back to doing other things in your business, doing other things in your life, and focus on what really matters. And that's really where Uncut Gems, the official presenting partner of how to phone weddings, comes into play. They're not just the presenting partner here in this episode, they are also my tried and trusted video editing team that I have been using in my wedding business wayward north. They really have taken my films, taken a lot of the backlog off my plate so that I can focus on making videos like this, so I can focus on spending time with my family and still retaining the same quality and expectations that my couples have when they watch their film. And they have been kind enough to offer you guys listening 60% off of your first edit. So head over to Uncut Gems. I will link them down in the show notes below. Use my code HCFW for that sweet discount and see if they can be a good fit for you.

SPEAKER_03

Uh, the thing that drives me nuts is, okay, after this shot, we're done. It's like, well, did you ask me if I needed anything? It's like you're giving everybody an excuse to leave. So I have to be the guy who's like, hey, there's still a videographer here. Uh I just need a couple things from you after photos done. Yeah. I think I think the great photographers are the ones that see us as a team and don't see like the hierarchy. I think the the worst thing, okay. So the one that I worked with that walked in front of the Flower Girls, like I was like their first videographer choice. They booked me before photo. And the the photo that they were they were originally gonna book, who is like one of my favorite people to work with, he's from uh the East Coast, Mike. Shout out to Mike. Uh he is just the best to work with, he's so great. Uh and then they something it was just Mike was a a little pricier, so they couldn't quite get Mike until they went with this other company. But but the entire day that photo company, who was like, you know, kind of the one they settled on, treated me like I was a second choice. When in reality they picked me long before they picked this photo company. And then they they everything that they did was like a shot that I just couldn't get. You know, she would like like get the shot through this doorway and then wouldn't pause long enough for me to also get the shot. Like, hey, I'm not gonna say your name. Person, uh let's call her Cindy. Cindy, uh I could you just pause for a second? Or there was like uh I couldn't get like a like a candid moment. I ended up saying, like, hey. Uh Cindy, can you just let the mom and her daughter just have a moment to have a conversation without you saying, mom do this, mom do that? Like, just just give them just give them 15 seconds without you shouting uh a direct, you know? Because they don't think like, hey, my voice is gonna be in all of these shots if they want to use audio. And it's probably because she's just worked with crappy videographers that every shot, no audio, slow motion, you know, so she's either doesn't care or doesn't think about it. You know? But it's my main point I started on before my AD took me off in a weird direction is that the difficult photographers to work with are the ones that think that like we're the second choice, and that the the couple cares more about their their photos than their video. And it's that chip on the shoulder that frustrates me.

SPEAKER_00

That's it. I mean, they really do think that they are the main priority, and that there's not equal value around the room. Um and that mentality is yeah, is what creates so much friction on the on the day. Like, I mean, just hearing you talk about just that experience for one, sort of making my my uh chest hurt a little bit. Because like, I mean, we've all experienced it. As if you've been doing this for I mean, I if you've been doing it for a year now, I feel like you've probably experienced it. But like I've 13 years in, I've had my fair share of photographers that hardly let you even get a word in, um, that are so fast with their like posing and direction, and they interject in every moment, every turn. There's just constant narration, and you just have to it's it's unfortunate for someone like like me that's like so non-confrontational that I have to literally do the hardest thing imaginable, and that is to stop what's happening and say, hey, I'm so sorry. Can we just like not speak for like maybe 10-15 seconds just so I can get some like a clear moment of this without any audio in the background? Um, because I'm running audio that's a little different than foot photo. Like you have to explain when you have to explain your process to the photographer in the moment, it's like it it can ruin a moment. Like it can just completely make that fall flat. And if you're having to constantly do that over and over and over again, it's gonna get taxing and it's gonna be very frustrating. And like that's that's just where there's like so much heat back and forth because everyone has their own opinions and ex and and like approach. And I mean, but I feel like for video, it's like most of us know that our job is to document, but we can't document like moments and actually capture those moments in the way that they deserve to be captured when you have photographers that are constantly trying to direct and like sculpt their mannequins in a way that's like picturesque and picture perfect. It's like I think that's where the biggest friction comes into play, is like when there's so many opposing styles, and most photographers have opposing styles with video because our job is to document, their job is to create. Like, I mean, like kind of like that's what everyone sees on Pinterest, all the couples they're all seeing, like, and that's why like a part of me can't really blame the photography too much because like I understand that like they're probably being like fed all this stuff from the couple, like, hey, we want it to look and feel like this, we want to be featured, we want all this, this, this, and this. And so I've worked with photographers that are great. I mean, their process doesn't like align with mine, and of course, you know, there's frustrating aspects of how I have to maneuver throughout the day, but like I can't fault them too much because it's like I know they're probably under it as well, because and this is just from experience. I had one wedding where the planner literally said to the photographer on the wedding day, I want this wedding featured. This wedding needs to be featured. And in my head, I'm thinking, bro, how much pressure you just put on the photographer in this moment to get this wedding featured for you when you're not paying her. Like, it's not, you're not her, like, you're not her boss. Like, she's not working for you. She's here for the couple, like at the end of the day. Like, yeah, and that's just like what's so unfortunate about weddings in general. And you've touched on this, you've said this, is like weddings have become this photo shoot. It's like everyone just wants those clicks and those likes and that that viral moment versus just having a wedding, like that you can actually feel and you get to remember that didn't cause so much.

SPEAKER_03

You're there for like the the most important people in your life are there one freaking time, you know, and you're caught up. I mean, it in photo shoots. I mentioned this in like the story that you're taught referencing. Like, it's not that we don't want photo, like we don't think that there should be photos. Like, everybody got all dialed up, perfect dress, perfect makeup, hair, tie, decor, all that stuff. Like, there needs to be photos of that. Oh, 100%. Not against that, it's the ratio, it's making sure that um like we're there to capture these genuine moments. And if there's only posing, there's no genuine moments. All we're doing is capturing the behind the scenes of a photo shoot, but you have to like give yours yourselves time to breathe and interact with these amazing people that you paid all this money to have them there, you know? And so it's like it's not that we don't want photos and we don't want portrait time. I want portrait time, I want to direct and do fun things. But I like if you're getting wedding, if it's your wedding day, like you need time to really like engage and have fun, have these genuine, beautiful moments with these people that you flew across the country and are paying all this money for them to be there. It's like you uh may not see these people again in your life. Like, I've there's a ton of people that came to my wedding 10 years ago, and I haven't seen them since. And wouldn't it have been sad if I was just off somewhere else getting my photos taken rather than having meaningful interactions and exchanges with these these people? And I think that's the thing that grieves me.

SPEAKER_00

The overposing is what gets me, and you know, I love I love the portrait session. But I feel like a lot of times when I have been I guess like neglected most of the day, by the time we get to the portrait session, I just don't feel like creative. Like I feel so like weathered down at this part of the day that I just have no creativity in my mind. I just like I just let the photographer keep keep leading because that's what she's shown me that she wants. And right, I mean, because if they're not asking me my opinions, obviously it's not valued or wanted. This is not the greatest mentality to have. I know that, because like I feel like I'm providing a disservice to the couple by feeling this way, but it's like, I don't know. I just feel like my job is to document, like my job is not to like not to direct or stage or I mean, because that's my whole pitch to couples, is like I'm a fly on the wall. I mean, I'm very passive videographer, not saying I don't offer some suggestion when I'm like in the moment, because I'm like thinking, hey, can you guys just go back to that pose real quick? Or like I'll just do stuff like that. My favorite thing when I say that is like when the photographer's like, oh, like, oh yeah, I'm still here, by the way. It's it's fine. I'm I've been beside you the whole day. It's like they forget like that I like that you exist. It's like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm just like, it just it just frustrates me so much like when I go through that because I'm just like, gosh, like how hard is it like just to have awareness like about other people you're working with, like other people with a camera. I mean, that's the thing. It's like I actually have a camera. That should be very familiar for you. Like, you are doing the same stuff that I'm kind of doing, I'm just right beside you the whole day. It's like, I don't know, it just kind of baffles me. It's weird, it's weird behavior. Um, I just like yeah, I don't really I guess this is this is a very long-winded tangent into my first point that we had talked about, how I just in we in this weird nebulous like of the wedding industry right now, of like whether I even want to keep doing it, like just because I'm so I'm just so beaten down like from these experiences time and time again, that it's just like if I want the films that I like that I've had the opportunity to film and create that turned out to be very special for the couple and for me, and that is some of my favorite to have worked on, it's just like there's so much more that I have to like end up doing in order to create that every single time, and it's just not realistic. Like, you just have so many different variables and hurdles that you have to kind of jump over in order to to get that product every single time, and it's like obviously with priority shifts and life changes, like you know, you have kids, you think about your weekends a lot differently too. So there's other reasonings behind my like thought process behind filmy weddings. I don't think I'll ever fully quit filmy weddings. I'll definitely just limit the amount I do, but and you know, probably raise my pricing, you know, to a point where you know maybe I'm only working with couples that truly want and value video and um that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean it is unfortunate. It is unfortunate that like that's just kind of that's what weddings are now. And I mean, there's some there's some videographers that are just better at being more vocal and um you know commanding the room than I am, and I think it it does get a little bit harder for the introverted videographer who's more timid and more meek and who doesn't really you know have that ability. Not saying they don't have the ability, they do. Just I I I keep coming back to what um you know Kyle had said about having the courage to, you know, like command the room and speak up. And it's like, yeah, I mean, that's something that I still don't necessarily like have like at my last wedding, like the Bri was like, yeah, like if you have anything you want to do, like just tell us. Because like I had like again, this was like an experience where the photographer, she they were super sweet, but like just were not asking if I needed anything. Um and then like she was trying to move on. It's like, oh wait, before we move on. And then the Bri was like, Oh yes, yes, please, like, tell us like if there's anything you want to do. And I'm just like, Yeah, I I just like I kind of forgot now that you said that because like I just it's just like the the the the the defeat, it like that just like again, it's it's just hard, man. It's hard when you have a certain personality type and you're doing the most extroverted thing imaginable, filming someone's wedding and trying to like make these things like look and feel a certain way. It's like because like Mason Wakefield said, I mean, like when it comes to like documentary work or like making your wedding films feel authentic, like you still have to have ideas. Like you just do, you have to have ideas if you want to make something really like different or like feel like the couple because like they're not paid actors, like you know what's gonna like translate well uh from film or from the day to film better than they will, and so it's like you kind of have to know what you're looking for and uh know what you need to say in the moment to pull certain things out. Um it there's just so much that goes into it, but another long-winded tangent on that. But that's that's just how I feel.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, man. I think it's wild. I think we all most of us, I think, acknowledge and understand that the comfort like the comfort that the couple has with us and their surroundings is correlated with how much they are themselves on the day. Right, you know? So like more comfortable they are, the more they're willing to be themselves. That's one of the things I pride myself in, is like the couples just feel like I'm one of their friends. But I it's interesting when you're talking, or you what you were saying is like like my creativity is sometimes tied with my comfort level with the photographer. Like if I feel disrespected, like it's my brain is so much more on the disrespect that I've received, right? More than the creativity that I want to give. Like I remember, I wouldn't consider this photographer a bad photographer. Uh, so I wouldn't list them among the people, but recent, like last year, a photographer took the couple out for golden hour without saying anything to me. And I didn't know I was what like my second was inside, like they walked past my second to do this. I was outside flying my drone, and I looked down, and there's like the couple with the photographer in my drone shot, and I'm like, what? So I like landed my drone, grabbed my camera, walked out, and they were like w coming back and like, oh, that was fun. Um, Brandon, I guess you can take them out now. And the couple looked at me, and I wasn't like angry with the couple necessarily, but it was just like, I guess you guys don't didn't care that video is there capturing that, because it's like, and if you didn't care, then I guess I don't care. And I was just like, as soon as that happened, it just like all creativity just left my body. I don't if you don't care about me capturing these moments, then why should I care? Which literally is the only time I've ever felt that, but it was like I almost gave up as soon as I felt that sort of like kind of like disrespect. It was just like I'm good. And I it was like the two like race, like last year, I just got to the point where it's like, I'm gonna say something to these photographers. So that photographer, I was like, hey, I don't know if you realize this, but it's like pretty disrespectful to take a couple out for golden hour and say nothing to their videographer. She was like, and like didn't say a thing to me. So I was like, I felt like I had got what I needed, so I just packed up and left. Um I did that another time, like it was like two weeks back to back this happened. The couple took, or the photographer took the couple out, and this photographer, like in the previous week, took them out for golden hour, and they'd taken them out, taken them aside like two or two times before that. And this couple didn't want to do portraits much, so it was like the window in which I had to get these shots was like so slim. And so it was like even more of a frustration that the photographer took them out without me. So I was just like, hey, I don't know if you realize this, but do you like not like me? Because you keep like taking them out without me. And and that photographer came and apologized to me later, which was nice. So matter respect. Uh yeah, but like like our ability to create and our inspiration can get very muddled and uh disrupted by a photographer who doesn't consider us at all.

SPEAKER_00

Most wedding films, you are kind of still at the mercy of like what the photographer does to a degree. Um and I mean, if like you're running into interference or photographers with just like crazy setups and flashes and you know, three assistants, and they're everywhere. It's like you're just like, dang, okay, this is gonna be fun. Let's see how this goes. Um I mean it is, it's very much like the end product depends on whether your photographer is a you know a good team player, or if they're just all about their portfolio.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's it's tough. I mean, not many people really understand that. And I mean, and I get it that there's both there's like bad eggs on both sides of the aisle. Like, I mean, I I get I mean there's videographers out there that just only care about themselves and and like.

SPEAKER_03

I've heard some videographer horror stories.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. But I feel like for the, you know, I guess for the more reserved videographers, the ones who actually care about pers preservation versus like creating these like full-scale cinematic productions. Obviously, what we want our films to look good and you know feel good, but we want to we just want to make something that feels like that feels like a movie, but also just like yeah, feels real. Like that doesn't feel like right. That's not forced, that's not like you watch it and you're just like this is way over the top. Like you can just feel it in the where it's the song choice, or it's the like the production of it all. You're just like, good lord, this is crazy. This is not real life. Like, yeah. That's and that's my thing too.

SPEAKER_03

It's like I feel like weddings are getting so far away from reality that the lines have been blurred and I'm almost gonna add like a a clause in my con my contract saying that like my ability to create a great wedding film is dependent very much on a the photographer. Yeah, and if the photographer doesn't give me space to do anything, then they're gonna have a lesser wedding film and they just acknowledge that. Yeah, just because it's rare that I run into that, but it's like I want I less than uh like some sort of contractual like loophole to get through. I just want couples to be mindful before the day of how much space they're giving, you know, how well the photographers are working with me. And again, it's it's very rare that I have a bad photographer, but it's like man, can it cut down what I have to work with if a photographer's not giving me space to do anything? You know, I like to say like I I maybe it might need 15%, you know. If there are videographers that are just like they want to do the craziest shots. They did like I talked to somebody recently that they said that a photographer that's like the videographer's like, this is a production. It's like, no, no, it's not. So if I had to work with a videographer that they said that to me, yeah, like I would not be a happy camper. So anyway, uh I I think I'm gonna add something to my contract just so like couples are more aware, like, hey, the videographer also needs space, so maybe if you see the photographer hogging it and not being mindful of the photographer or the videographer, maybe say something. I don't know. Okay, I think it's a good idea. I like it. That's my thoughts. That's my thoughts. Okay, so going back to uh just feeling kind of like some the disrespect from from from some photographers. I was watching the vendor table, it happened like three months ago, and they opened the podcast with this weekend I had a wedding and there were no videographers, and it was so nice, it was heavenly, it was so and they both were like, Oh, mine didn't have a videographer either. Oh, it was so great. And it's just like it's difficult to be seen as an obstacle, you know? Yeah, like it'd be difficult, like I have zero chance of filming a wedding with uh either of those two. I like those two, I listen to their podcast, but like I have zero chance of working with them. But if I did, I wouldn't show up feeling like I was welcome for the day if that was their attitude.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, that statement makes it sound like videographers to them are burdens. That and maybe they've had some really bad experiences. So I don't, I I don't I can't speak into their their life or their career. I'm sure that if that is the mean mentality that they have probably worked with the it's a production videographer, and that has made their job very difficult, but it's just like that's where I'm just like, well, I mean, ditto. That's a very unfortunate statement coming from a photography like education platform. Because I mean I've had photographers say, Oh my gosh, you were so like easy to work with, like you were amazing. Yeah, I get a lot of referrals from photographers because they say that, you know? Same. That's the thing. I mean, if you are just a very laid back, you know, down to earth, like you know how to maneuver and work around photographers, or you know how to capture what you need to capture and create a beautiful film and just be a nice person to work with. Photographers are some of the best, like reformers. Referral like engines for your business. I feel like most of the like my referrals come from photographers. Um, I'd say like planners, photographers, and then preferred venue lists, but like let's not brand videographers like a as like a parasite, you know. Like we're we're there to do the same things. Like it's always I would love a photographer to be there.

SPEAKER_03

If it's a bad photographer or no photographer, I'd pick no photographer. Yeah, you know. Uh like I love photographers, but I I myself can direct. It doesn't bother me. I've done enough story sessions where it's like, yeah, my story sessions are where some of my best stuff comes from, and that's because I'm in charge. You know, I love collaborating with a photographer, but could I get better, more and better shots if a photographer wasn't there? Depending on the photographer. You know, it's like some videographers have to have a photographer there and like would completely draw a blank if uh there wasn't one there. That's not necessarily me. So I could easily be like, oh, it'd be so great if it was so great there wasn't a photographer there to compete with. You know, I could do whatever I wanted, but it does make it does that attitude does make get me frustrated with the industry sometimes. It's like I talked to a planner once it was like, oh, we pay our we make we have double the photo budget because photo has to be perfect and video doesn't.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's what she said to me. It's like, well, photo gets to pick exactly where we're gonna be, and there they get the you know, they get the most symmetrical, beautiful position every time. It's like a photo or a video was able to get, you know, decide where the positioning was every time. Your photo might your video might have better composition every time than your photo if photo had to always like stand at the side. I had another um photographer friend. I love this photographer, so if she ever hears this, uh know that I love you. But she messaged me and was like, hey, I have a couple, they have a $14,000 budget. I'm charging them $11. I'm trying to find a videographer that will do three grand. And I was like, well, that's not me. I don't know why you're talking to me. I'm not about to, I'm not about to do to work alongside you for three and a half times less than what you're charging. But it's like a lot of photographers have the balls to be like, video is like not really that big of a deal. And it's that, you know, it's like the don't bring them out to golden hour, you know, photos, it's that sort of mentality that like I think wears on videographers, and then like the amount of post-production that we have compared to photo, it's like we probably have four times the post-product that photo has, and then you want to pay them double. It's like I have zero animosity towards photographers, but when like until they bring that sort of like disrespect to me, it's like, look, I'm dragging in tons of gear, I'm handling audio, I'm handling lights, like you got your flashes, great. But it's like we do all this extra stuff, and then like the oh, I'm so glad photo or video wasn't there. I'm so glad video wasn't there this weekend. It was heavenly. It's like that hearing hearing that after all this other disrespect, it's like, man.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's it's like frustrated. Oh, it's rage, it's rage-inducing, that's for sure. Because it just like as soon as you hear that, you're just like, it takes you through the whole like memory reel of all the photographers who just made you feel so small, made you feel like you weren't important, that you needed to follow their instructions, that your you know, your video doesn't really matter, my photos are more important, like, or never like asking you if you need anything on the day, never treating you like an individual, or like it really never treating you like you were an equal, you were always lesser than. Um yeah, it takes you through that whole like experience when you hear that stuff and you're just like, man, that y'all suck. Like, seriously, like that's just like what comes to mind. Y'all suck. Like the ones that do that disrespect, they do suck. Yeah, the ones, the ones that really feel that way towards videographers and that just think they're the most important thing on someone's wedding day. I mean, whatever. If that's how you have to get through the day, if that's how you have to live and survive, that's great.

SPEAKER_03

I mean it makes I always say this, anytime I make any sort of critique of photographers, I just want to uh state that the pe the photographers that are great to work with absolutely love and appreciate. You know? So if you're a photographer and you're constantly getting likes from this guy, know that I love working with you. Because there's a lot that I'm like, yes! I worked for that this last weekend. I was second, I was a second shooter for somebody.

SPEAKER_00

There's nothing better than actually having a photographer that gets it. That like just they understand it. They've been through the ringer, they're just like, yeah, we're you know, we're here together for 10 hours. Like, let's not make each other's lives complicated. Like, I'm if I'm in your shot, let me know. If you need anything, um, just let me know. Um yeah, excited that you know we're here to work together. And it's just like when you set the tone that way, it just makes the experience so much better. I actually feel like I can breathe. I feel so much more creative because I have someone next to me that actually like wants my help, that actually cares that I'm there, like that because like the photographer this past weekend, um, or I don't know if it was this past weekend, it was maybe a couple weekends ago, but like she was just like, hey, like during the portrait session, like feel free to like take direction in certain instances. It helps me out a little bit better. And I'm like, oh wow, absolutely, you got it. Like, yeah, and it's just like that was someone like that was just like me with the camera, who's maybe a little bit creatively just like stumped right now because the weather, like it's hot, we're we've been working like nonstop. It's like she needs a little bit of help. Like, that's what I hear. I hear someone reaching out to like for help. I'm like, okay, perfect, I got you. Don't worry about it. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna step in. Like, so there's just like ways that we can just harmoniously work together where it's just like it's such a great experience for everyone.

SPEAKER_03

I think I always like the the like photo's most important chip drives me nuts. Yeah, same. I always say like this like if you had a your favorite movie of all time, and somebody sat you down, and they're like, that movie no longer exists, but you have 200 stills of that movie, what are you gonna are you gonna be upset or happy? You know? It's like for me, I that no amount of stills, even though they're great to hang on the wall and they're beautiful, and I think that they're absolutely essential to a wedding day, is going to replace actually watching that movie back, you know, and that's that's what we offer. We offer people to watch those moments in real time, hear those voices, see not just like one uh shot of mom crying, but like that entire moment. And what I experienced with a lot of my like, especially like a early on in my career, I worked with a lot of couples that were like, I don't really have a budget for a videographer. Yeah, and I was just like, you know, I'm cheap, pick me. And so I've heard so many of them be like, I wasn't expecting to like cherish my video more than my photos, just because traditionally it's the photos, like and then photo thinks that they're number one. But I have so many that like none of only one of them have actually like told me that, and she's like gung-ho about it. But I hear from other like the the made made of the bridesmaids and groomsmen and people who will say, Hey, I talked to this couple, and they were ecstatic about their video, and they said that they would trade, they wouldn't, they would get rid of their photos before they get rid of their video. Yeah, and that's and I don't I don't think a lot of couples realize realize how important there it is for a good videographer.

SPEAKER_00

That's the constant disconnect, you know, with new couples coming into the market and you know, going through the motions of vendors. It's just there's just this disconnect. You have the older generation that says, oh, well, you we gotta get a photographer. That's like the most important thing. And then it's like, oh, I've got to get a venue, the DJ, the florist, the cake, we gotta get all the details of the decor. Okay, now we need to get a coordinator and a planner. Okay, great. How much money is left? Um, what about a videographer? I don't know. I don't think videographers are really, you know, that important. And then, you know, six months after wedding day, when they don't have a video, but their friends bought a video and they watched that, like, man, we really should have got a video. Like, have you did you see like Tom and Courtney's video? Because it was it was like so beautiful. Like, I cried, like, man, we should we should have really got it in video just to be able to hear people's voices again, just to be able to see like our people, or like watch you like see me for the first time in motion, because like, yeah, the still frame's great, but like I want to see them tears rolling down the face. I want to see you cry like a little girl as like you know, you see me for the first time, or I want to see my dad like tell me that he was proud of me again, or like I want to hear all those things again. And it's just like for people to have such a such a jaded point of view about the role of videographers, the importance of videographers, and just I don't know, be so I don't want to say neglectful. That's not the right word, but just I mean just so callous towards like the job of like just because they feel we're a nuisance or they feel that we're just a burden to be there or that we're just gonna be in the way. Um I mean, I don't know. It just it's again, it comes back to that like mentality for me of like why I just wanna quit sometimes. Why I just like like if no one cares that I'm here, why should I care? You know what I mean? Like, and I know the couple cares, I know the family cares, but like if the planners treating me like dirt or not even neglecting me being there, always asking the photographer, hey, what can I get you? Is there anything you need? And then turning and walking away and not even asking me the same thing. That's why which has happened. And it's just like when you feel invisible on the wedding day, it's not about you, but it's like you're still a human being. I mean, you're still a person, like you're still someone who like wants to feel like you're appreciated, appreciated, like that you that you're I don't know. I just I'm I'm getting a little too far off the beaten path here, but just all of that to say is just like I have also had those experiences, and it's why I've I've been doing it for as long as I have to, where the couple, you know, they reach out, they send you those long email threads, and or they send you those reviews after you send them the film, and that's just what you circle back to. It did like all the noise doesn't matter at the end of the day. It doesn't matter how the photographer treated you day up, it doesn't matter that the planner forgot that you were even there, treated you like you were invisible, it doesn't matter if you didn't have a hot, warm meal. What matters is getting those words of affirmation after the fact from the person that you were there to capture. Like, yeah, at the end of the day, that's that's the the hamster wheel that keeps me locked in. It's like, okay, I need those words. Just give them to me. I need you to tell me that I I matter here. Like that what when what this film did for you changed your life. Like, give me that so that I can just give a hypothetical middle finger to the photographer, like, and you know, just keep going about my life. So there's pros and cons to this job. Yeah, you know, it's I I appreciate you like hopping on when we're ranting about photographers and the experience of it all, because it's I think it's it's a valuable conversation, and and it's something that so many videographers can relate to. And I mean, if you're a photographer listening too, I'm sure you can relate to those negative experiences.

SPEAKER_03

Why are all those things to bad videographers? Yes, yeah. And we try hard. I got two thoughts. I I don't want to keep I know we're going a long time, but I got two thoughts I want to throw at you. Do it before before we conclude. Uh damn. Oh, for me, the thing that keeps me going is knowing that I preserved these moments for these couples. You know, I love like I eat up the those at those words of affirmation, but as I'm in, as I'm editing these things, I know, even if they don't say it, how important these things will be. Like, I can't imagine being so stuck in my ego. Like, let's say I was a photographer, stuck in my ego, that the little bit of convenience to like working around a photographer, like that is more important than preserving like the speeches, preserving their vows. Like, I can't imagine saying my vows to my wife or hearing my best friend say, give their honest observations of who I am and who we are as a couple, and only having like three photos and not actually being able to listen and witness those things back. Yeah like for me, I know my job is important, and I take the the responsibility of preserving these memories so seriously, and I just can't imagine someone being like, we don't need that guy there, you know? Yeah, so the other the other thought is I I think bad videographers are to blame, and many videographers are to blame for this. Not just the working, like we've discussed the like working around bad videographers, but like what so many videographers prioritize as giving the couple? Like the couple doesn't need a slow-mo montage of their portrait time, they need to be brought back to that day, they need to hear all of the meaningful words that were spoken, the meaningful moments arranged in a way that the maximum amount of meaning can be given to that couple. Like they pay for you and I as storytellers, they pay for our view. Like they spend one day there in that day. We spend a week to two weeks constantly going over and thinking about how much meaning does this thing her father said, if I put that before this moment in the speech, is that gonna help them understand like how much more beautiful this day was than they realized? Like I had a bride message me once who was like, I was nervous on my day that I puked. If I told you the story before, stop me, but I was so nervous about my day, like months after, uh because I puked, I was so nervous, and I just had this like way, I was weighed down with guilt because of how I felt on my wedding day. But when I watched the wedding video that you gave us, it can made me completely look back on that wedding day so much differently. Not be because she saw what I saw. What I saw was that this couple was were committing their lives to be together forever. Like I saw the joy, I saw all these beautiful things that maybe they were distracted from. But our job, you and I, as storytellers, can tell that story and make them see their day differently. It's not a false version of their day. The way she saw it was a false version of their day. I was able to, because I spent two weeks in it, I was able to see it accurately, accurately and give them a better representation of their day than even they remembered. And when we just give them slow motion portrait time, we rob a couple from seeing their day as they should.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I I totally wish that there was a way to I don't know, I mean shake the slow-mo out of like wedding videographers sometimes. Because, but I mean, when you look at the in how the industry was 10 years ago, um, you know, 2016, which is crazy to think about because it doesn't feel that long ago, but I mean, that's what you kind of saw. I mean, everything was kind of slow-mo. Like, every frame was slow-mo, and you're just like, okay, I guess this is what wedding films are. This is what I I need to do if I want to book weddings. And then everyone started doing that. And then everyone started seeing maybe some, you know, some uptick in sales and and inquiries, and you're like, okay, so this is this is what people want. Okay, cool. This is what we're doing. And then pretty soon everyone just stopped innovating. They just stopped changing things up, they just kept doing it. And and it's like, yeah, hey, this works. And I get the mentalities like if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like, sure. But I don't know. There's there's I I know for a fact that the people that are still making those kinds of films, you can't tell me that you're not be you're not bored out of your mind when you're when you're doing it.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I guess that's true. I guess if you just have a formula, you're just like rinse, repeat, form mode. You just take the take the mouse, you highlight everything, right-click, you can form, you you know, change it, and you just like slap some bin rector and some some old school tunes on there and call it a day, I guess. I don't know. But yeah, I just I guess there's just there's there's different categories, I guess, then that's your I would I would say that those are your like traditional videographers, right? They're the ones that you're gonna hire that's probably less than two grand. They're gonna they're gonna be there with their their gimbal and everything's gonna be slow-mo. It's gonna be very like you you watch it, you're like, man, if this is like looks like a blast to the past, like I'm like the the cursive fonts that the glitters and sparkles on the title title screen. And and yeah, and and those are the videos that I guess for some couples are like, yeah, I don't I don't want a video like that. That doesn't make sense. I don't need a videographer. I don't need a videographer, right? And and then you get to the next level where it's like, oh wow, this is telling a story. Okay, so this is different. Like this is this I can actually get behind because now I'm getting to hear dad speak at my wedding. I'm getting to like relive the aisle walk and like all of those things. Not saying that those moments aren't present in like traditional wedding videos, but they're a lot more magical in like a story-driven experience type of film. Yeah. Because it's in real time, you're not you're not enhancing it to an overproduced degree. Like it's it's the moment. Um, yeah, sure, you're adding some music to it, and you know, you're I guess in a way, you are elevating the emotion of it. Because music naturally does that. Okay. Yeah. Like, you know, there's there's peaks and valleys in in songs, and just music has that that power. But and then, you know, you get to another level where uh you're just making everything a hype real. And like everything is Wes Anderson all of a sudden. Or now we're in this weird lane where every wedding film you look at is exactly the same. Same, same music, the same fast-paced editing structure, the same compositions, the same color grade, the same title cards, and you're like, what is happening right now? Yeah. Like, what is going on? But I mean, it just reminds me of like that's what happened in 2016. Everyone saw what was working, everyone saw where where the where the attention was, like where people were getting all the all the leads and the bookings, and they were like, okay, well, this guy's doing it this way, so I need to take everything that he's doing, and I need to do the same thing. Apply it to a different name, different branding, and we'll be this guy, but in a different market. And it's like, that's basically what's happening now. It's like, okay, I'm gonna take what the UK are doing, or like what people are doing in different countries, and that are just like gaining so much popularity, and I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do it frame by frame, I'm gonna emulate the style, and I'm gonna just market it here in my area. It's like, yeah, I mean, I don't know, social media has exposed a lot of copycats. And I don't even know what we were talking about, Brandon. I got this is like this is the third time I've gone off on a tangent of like where we started went into a completely different lane of where it ended. And I hope it makes sense for people listening. But yeah, good luck to you on editing. Good luck, yeah. Good luck to me. Might be easier than last time, but yeah, I think I think the main point of it was you know, your uh your idea that just like everything doesn't need to be slow-mo, couples don't need like every every moment on their wedding day slowed down to where it's just like unrealistic. Um the whole benefit and power of video is in the real life moment. Like having it happen, it's being captured on camera in real time, played back, they get to see it again. And like that's just it's just that simple. I mean, when you think about it, it really is that simple.

SPEAKER_03

With AI, perfection is not gonna be difficult to find. Authenticity will be very difficult in the future. Absolutely. You know, like the supply and demand, the supply for perfection is going to increase at a rapid rate. While we're gonna have to fight to find and and present real, real things, you know.