1 Reading the water

Exploring what Peer-Supported Open Dialogue is by creating a dialogue about it. In this first episode, Amanda and Billy talk about talking to stimulate reflections from our listeners on what dialogical practice might look like. We reflect together from the position of an honest perspective on how the seemingly simple concept of having an "open dialogue" could be so challenging to define.

POD at Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust

Fiona Eastmond | LinkedIn

Transcript

  
Hi, my name is Fiona Eastmond. I'm a peer trainer, a podcaster, and I'm studying peer supported open dialogue at the time of recording. I'm the P that supports this very open dialogue. 

We had a think about what to call this podcast so I came up with Open POD Pod we thought about it for a bit and we wondered. How included peers were, and I immediately said, well, I'm here and I'm a peer, so I'm included.

So what are these podcasts for and what is open dialogue? 

 It's based on listening to and validating the thoughts and feelings and experiences of a person  so we thought that recording a dialogue would be one of the best ways of demonstrating what a dialogue is like as it were.  

The important thing about all of this is that no decision in an open Dialogue team  is undertaken about us without us.

 We hope that by listening to the dialogues that happen between myself, Amanda, and our guests, that you will get to know a bit more about the subtleties and the nuances of  peer supported open dialogue.

Welcome everybody to Open POD pod. I'm Amanda Bueno de Mesquita, and I'm a systemic psychotherapist, an Open Dialogue practitioner, and I'm passionate about us bringing new ways of learning and talking and dialogue to each other. And that's the purpose of this .

And I'm very excited to be working alongside, my colleague Billy Hardy.

Hello folks. welcome to open POD pod my name is Billy Hardy and I'm also a systemic psychotherapist and have been interested in working with the ideas of open POD pod dialogue. For many years now. So it's a great pleasure for me beginning this process because it marks a new moment in the development of open dialogue in a different context.

So I'm hoping to generate some new ideas, share some ideas with Amanda on these pods, and then see where it takes us So nice to meet you all and hope these are going to be useful to you. 

The idea behind these, Billy,  we discussed it together, is to create dialogue. So we are having a dialogue about dialogue and then we are hoping that the people listening to us will create a reflection on what we are speaking about and hence create more dialogue and a polyphony of voices

You see, I was thinking about that because,  our voices at the moment in this dialogue, Then get carried to another context with people sitting and listening. And what, what do we want to say that promotes dialogue about the ideas that we're going to pursue in this conversation.

 I'm just thinking that in order to create the space for dialogue, We need silence

 we need silence, but usually, when we're working in open dialogue, we are part of it. The silence that is, and we're usually with others and so we can see and feel and connect with people.

I'm just very aware that, and I'll tell everybody listening, that you, Billy, were my tutor. And over the course of learning how to be a systemic therapist, some of the ways in which we learned and in the ways in which you taught were almost impossible to pin down and, and in fact, some of the richness of the way in which we learned I've only really appreciated retrospectively. And I wonder how we can make sure or, or try to make sure this space doesn't do so much of that. And it's relevant in the moment. It's not to say it wasn't relevant at the time, I was just saying that it, its magic evolved in waves for me,

Right.

That makes sense.

Yeah. It's very difficult to notice yourself doing and learning at the same time, unless maybe you're doing an activity like cycling a bike or, or swimming when suddenly something happens.

You know, you get your balance on a bike and away you go and you're peddling for the first. Or, or you're, you're moving your arms and legs with all your might and then suddenly you've moved maybe five meters and now you're swimming. But you, it's difficult to notice yourself in that moment. And, and sometimes when I hear feedback like that, I'm thinking, I, I'm trying to capture a moment in someone's practice, someone's art and someone's, I guess, embodiment. What are they trying to do when they're having a conversation with someone else? Now what are they listening to? Because cuz they'll be listening to the client obviously, and there might be more than one person in the room to listen to. But at the same time this might be the impenetrable bit. At the same time, you want people to listen to themselves,

It's, I'm just, I'm, I'm laughing at the word listening because I remember so clearly a supervision session with you when you said to me, well, how are you getting on. And I said, oh, actually, I've stopped listening to my clients . And you, you laughed. And you said, oh, okay, Amanda, what are you doing? And I said, I'm listening to what they're not saying.

And you said, congratulations. You're becoming a therapist,

Well, we see. Yeah, yeah. Well, you see, it's that in many ways it reminds me of that musical metaphor that a music is only music because of the space between the notes.

So the conversation is usually the meaning. The meaning might be generated in the space between, and it's the space between that becomes really interest. It's a bit like a, and I know I'm stretching this a bit, but I was listening to a radio program earlier this morning and it was people talking about choreography and it was sort of high brow, choreographers and dancers, you know, from New York and all those sort of places. Very simply, there was a man on, on the program and he's developed this big show that's happening in London. And he said, the thing is, dancers talk with their bodies.

actually, you are not going So far off topic because I've recently made friends with somebody  who was. A principal ballerina for the Birmingham Royal Ballet. And we went to see a ballet together at Sadlers Wells 

and what was really interesting was that I was, and I, I don't know, a thing about ballet nothing, was that I was able to have a conversation with her about, The movement, the dance, how it was making me feel, what was going on between the people on the stage. And it was fascinating because we were actually speaking the language of system, irrespective of what, what we were doing.

I speak it obviously as, as part of my work, and she spoke it. As part of dance, but it's the same language. It's the beats in the middle, it's the, and it's the feelings. It's the, and I think that does resonate with open dialogue and that's what makes it so very difficult to pin down into something to teach, because you almost can't hold it.

It's like a cloud that goes through. You have to feel it, don't you?

you see it begs the question for me because of the style of work and training that I've been involved in for a number of years, is that when somebody says something, and I found myself doing that last week, when somebody asks something in a, in a therapy session I, I might as closely as possible to the moment that it happened, ask the person.

What were you thinking about when you asked that? To that person at that time. And that's a very odd thing to happen in our conversations 'cause if we were walking around with maybe an avatar, for example, who constantly has a conversation with us that says, what are you thinking now when you're having this conversation?

It, it would be exhausting. It's far too exhausting for us to think about what's coming out of her mouth at the same times as it's coming out of her mouth. But, you know, if you are an, you're an improviser. Like Charlie Parker, then you don't have to think about it. It happens. But of course in open dialogue and, and, and the way that we are thinking about how we learn or how we talk with people is we're attempting in some way to just slow things down a little bit

so that we can recognize the space

and then ask those questions that might help us connect. An emotional feeling level so that, because I think one of the things that seems to be really important in open dialogue is what's the connection we're making with the other person?

Was just I always notice in open dialogue that talks about using a client's utterances, you know, or using, and whilst I know that that's. Important. I've also seen it being done very woodenly. Very unhelpfully. In fact, almost. So it feels like it's being ridiculed. You remember when you were a kid and someone was copying everything you said,

Maybe that was just me, you know, in the 

I think that was just you, Amanda.

was just me. Yeah. But you know what I mean, that kind of mimicking, or maybe it's a sibling thing. And I think it's really important is in those nuances. It's not about just repeating what somebody's saying, it's about truly stopping, slowing down and feeling for ourselves

in the room and and to be able to sit with silence.

Well, you see, I think, I think if I, if I add something to that, it is really useful to, to attempt to. Occupy the space with people in conversation. But I think also as part of, as part of the art of what, what I would call, and I, I would attribute this to Tom Andersen, who, who's a Norwegian psychiatrist and therapist who's passed away a number of years ago.

But, but one of the things I would take from, from some of his ideas is how we can capture a. And if you can capture a word, sometimes it, it can, it, it it can illuminate the whole conversation, but you have to know which word that it is And so you spend a lot of time catching words to see if it's the right word for the moment.

and it's like panning for gold.

No. And it's making me think about the beginning of this conversation when we were thinking about how to involve people in it. I wonder as we used it, the difference in which word or words might resonate with somebody.

yeah.

And that that in itself becomes another part of the dialogue.

It, it's also making me think of when we say words though. Are we just talking about speech, which means it, it could be in any language and each language has got its own rhythms and beats and spaces and, and a whole sort of rhythm of talking. We would not understand because it's not our language. 

So, so going back to the, the idea of utterances, it is a nice word 'cause it captures lots of stuff that might not be language specific, but it might be word specific. 

 Given that we work in a multicultural context? How do. How do we modify and be aware of the different nuances that might be available? 

To people and about people and with people that's not just in the way that we are having a conversation. Cause it all of it won't be like this conversation.

And I think within that it's letting go of.

Okay, this is going to sound a little left of, left of kilter, but here we go. I was thinking recently about the way I communicate with my dog.

Okay. Seriously, I was, and then I was thinking she never speaks to me. I, I can say that on record, however, I still understand her.

Yeah.

It's a very deep understanding. And then I was thinking about how we as babies, or babies in general, having worked for many years in early years, you know, babies communicate with us and we, we work out what it is they're saying.

Are they hungry? Are they thirsty? You know, we go through the different things and try and understand what's upsetting them or what they're saying. And yet, as soon as we reach adulthood, Or even toddlers. Use your words. You know, we make words the most important part of communicating and we stop reading or feeling the unsaid.

We stop reading people because we're fixated on the words it's a bit like, and I know I'm, I'm just adding more to this as a way of thickening out this, this position really. I remember talking with another student and we were talking about this very idea 'cause they were very interested in Dialogical approaches, not just the learning, but also to talking with people in an open dialogue and, and they said, oh, I think I know what it's like. 

And I said, oh, what is it like? And they said, it's like fishing. And I thought to myself, this person's really lost it. Now how can it be like fishing? Now? I, at the time when , I was thinking, and then they said, this woman was a trout fisher woman, and she's very skilled, and in fact she fishes for Britain, you know, she's that good. And she said, the way I'm thinking about it, and this is what she did, her, her research on, the way I'm thinking about it is a bit like fishing. And she fishes in rivers, you see. And she says, before we, before we go into a. We have to read the water. And I was like, well, what, what the hell is reading the water?

And she tells me about the flow and she tells me about the stones and what might be underneath the water and what the, the current is like, and what the color of the water is and how it goes down the bank. What shapes it.  Once she's read the water, she knows where to. I thought that's a brilliant idea that really sort of brings it to life.

Talking and the art of listening, maybe also like reading the water. We need to constantly revisit it.

Yeah, it's really resonating with me. Be it open dialogue or be it just who we are in relationship with people, or be it a fisherman or a dancer or a musician. 

It's all about the language of being beings rather than doings 

Yes. Yeah.

and, and it's very difficult when we think about our services as they are because they're geared around doing, they're geared around the solution. Aren't they?

And just as you're saying that, Amanda, there's a big beam of light coming in your window.

Oh yeah, I can see it. Look at that. I've been blessed. has it. Has it got any, has it got any commandments with it? 

No, I hasn't got any yet. You know Yeah. It's always fascinating how we, how we position ourselves in, in, in relation to what may be current conversations for lots of people in that the conversation might be one of othering someone or objectifying someone or oppressing someone, or. Silencing someone you know, so that they don't speak. And that can be done in many different ways.

And I suppose that the open dialogue is in a culture that we're thinking of embedding some, some training and some, some ways of practicing is that it becomes an invitation to a different way of talking and listening, which might not have been there before. And it, it might feel a bit clunky, in the way that we are a bit clunky about how we're doing this.

Well, I am, 

Yeah. No, I, I am, I'm clunky too, and it reminds me, I don't know. you probably won't remember this, but I do, when I first came across Open Dialogue, because it's part of a systemic therapeutic training, it's one of the theories that we come across. I remember getting very angry in, a paper I wrote saying, why is this even a. This is just about being a person. I mean, why does it even have the credence of, you know, or the importance of being a theory, this is ludicrous. It's going back to what it should be, community interconnection, et cetera. So I sort of buried the whole idea of it. And never wanted to revisit it. And I thought that my punishment to Jaakko S would be, that's it.

I'm never quoting him again. I'm done . And then I remember stumbling across another paper that he wrote where he said exactly the same. He said, well, of course, I don't even know why it's even a theory. It's just the way people should be in relationship with each other. And a few weeks ago, I met him for the first time over dinner and I recounted to him my almost disrespectful stance when I first met him, and then how I adjusted my position once I read that he had, he didn't take himself too seriously within it. If, if you see what I mean? And he said, oh yeah, absolutely. That's exactly where my mindset was. Why is it even a theory? It's, it's just the way we should be with each other. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that, I think that if, if we were, if we were flipping it between open dialogue and, and the systemic field, we might be seeing it, it's, it's good to know that someone who puts together things that might be seen as a theory, As a model, although I, I, I caution that idea of a model that that there's a degree of irreverence to even your own ideas

Mm mm 

cause it's a bit like trying to catch the word, you know?

It, it's not that every word is going to be the one that makes the connection.

So I'm going to catch your word, Billy, because you said I would caution mentioning it as a model. Will you elaborate on what you are feeling around that? 

Maybe if I talk about feeling around it the feeling of a model usually comes in a package and the package has a format and the format. Leads to a practice that can become routine and, there will be very good pieces of evidence to support the model because it's been through various forms of potential research or, or like lots of models, they just emerge of practice.

long before there's any evidence to support them, like open dialogue did because everyone poo-pooed it in the beginning, going back to 1992 when they looked at Seikkula's work and thought, Hmm, yeah, they, they were probably thinking, well, thank goodness is just happening in Finland. That was the sort of dialogue around at the time, you know,

Hmm. 

People laughed at these things and so trying to construct a model around it can be quite dangerous because you get a fixed set of practices, whereas I would suggest it's probably more useful. Well, that's my, that's my, my emotional response I think is that I, I, there's a physical response as well, and I usually come out in a rash when someone says, I have a model, and so I have to scratch it.



Can I give you a little example?

Yeah. 

I wrote a poem a few weeks ago called We Are International and it's about rugby and it's about domestic violence. It's quite a short poem. And I shared it with, with someone in the team that I work with in a Thursday,  I let this person have this poem and, and she, she liked it a lot. She thought it was very powerful. And, and her idea she says, can I share this on my Instagram account? And I said, yeah, it's okay. And she said, and I want to get this poem printed on beer mats.

She's carrying this idea that because, and she sort of said to herself, why didn't I think of this before? Because one of our family members owns a pub. And I can get this poem written on a beer mat, then people can, they'll look at it.

or take it home. 

or take it home, you see with a number. You see if you are experiencing domestic violence, blah, blah, blah, you know? 

Anyway. I'll send you a copy of the poem

Please do. 

It's a lovely way of thinking about what is community.

And community is a relationship. It's not just a collection. You know, if you've got a collection you can have a redundant collection of things and you've just got stuff together because you like it. But if you've got a collection of things that are connected

and you can tell a story about it. You see, even when people go into an art gallery and they look at all those wonderful paintings, they never come out with the connection of the painter. They only come out with the visions of the paintings. But when you tell the story of the painter before you go in, then , it makes much more sense.

mm. I need to do that with opera. To be honest, I never have a clue what's going on,

Okay.

I do think we've captured something today though.

Yeah, but we can filter it out. You know, the thing is, it's a bit like, it, it, it seems that it's a stream of conversation, isn't it?

And then, and it's almost like the thing that, that we have to teach people when we're thinking about reflecting team processes is how do you filter yourself to offer the feedback that's most connected with the client?

Can you remember that thought please? We're gonna need that one in a minute.  You always say your best thing when you're off air.

and Somebody might be listening to this and saying, that was very interesting, those two psychotherapists talking, you know, it was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. wonder, I wonder who was recording it, who was, who was the technical person who was listening to that?

I wonder what they would think about it 

Hmm. 

 I am mainly listening   there was quite a bit of my voice in it and the computer ate it 

 

And that's it for this episode of Open Pod Pod. Join us for the next episode.



Don't forget to follow me @FionaThePSW on Twitter and I very much look forward to having you as my listener again.