3 Three important words

Exploring what Peer-Supported Open Dialogue is by creating a dialogue about it. In this third episode, Billy gives us some books to buy and tells us the three most important words he teaches to his students. We reflect together on how dialogue is nothing without reflection and how reflection creates further dialogue.

POD at Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust

Fiona Eastmond | LinkedIn

Transcript

Fiona 0:11

Episode three. Welcome to Open POD pod,

Amanda 0:15

Welcome everybody to Open POD pod. I'm Amanda Bueno de Mesquita, I'm a systemic psychotherapist, an Open Dialogue practitioner, and I'm passionate about us bringing new ways of learning and talking and dialogue to each other. And that's the purpose of this

Billy 0:32

Hello folks. Welcome to Open My name is Billy Hardy and I'm also a systemic psychotherapist and have been interested in working with the ideas of Open Dialogue. For many years now. So it's a great pleasure for me to share some ideas with Amanda on these pods, and then see where it takes us

Amanda 0:54

The idea behind these, is to create dialogue. We are hoping that the people listening to us will create a reflection on what we are speaking about and hence create more dialogue and a polyphony of voices it's interesting, isn't it,

Fiona 1:12

I think quite often you ask a question of someone or of a room and you don't get the answer straight away, but it's really important not to push for the answer as if you're ticking it off on a piece of paper You need to sit with somebody not giving the answer straight away.

Amanda 1:29

and that's also part that we should reflect on

Fiona 1:33

Mm

Amanda 1:34

because that leaves you with whatever it is, it's okay.

Fiona 1:39

mm Do you think it's perhaps quite usual to leave a Network meeting with more questions than answers.

Amanda 1:47

Yes,

Fiona 1:48

Mm-hmm. I like that.

Amanda 1:50

Because that, that means that you are, you are still in the not knowing position. You're still in the position of curiosity. You're still with uncertainty. If you left a network meeting with all of the answers, you'd be taking a position of certainty.

Fiona 2:05

Yeah. And that is, and we're actively seeking not to take that position, which I think is another thing that's uncomfortable for a musician who would normally read a score. Or for a, any practitioner who would normally follow a form or a, or something they've often said to people that they've found works quite well, or something like that. Any kind of formula we're just

Amanda 2:30

I think you should ask that question again so that we capture it. Fiona, Not to put you on the hot seat, but we just reflected on it. And then Fiona, ask your question again'cause I think that's important

Fiona 2:41

thank you. And, and I said, is it usual to leave a network meeting with more questions than answers?

Amanda 2:48

and my response to that was yes, probably because otherwise when you are leaving with more questions, you are leaving with uncertainty and curiosity and a not knowing position. When you are leaving? Mm,

Billy 3:03

I was just gonna say, if you're leaving with a question, you are already beginning to reflect on what was asked.

Fiona 3:09

Yeah.

Billy 3:10

If you leave with the answer, you are in a cul-de-sac.

Fiona 3:14

Yeah.

Billy 3:14

You've just been offered certainty, and then It's like going to an appointment with your doctor and you come out and the doctor said, blah, blah. Ah. Usually I say to people, do you believe that? But the doctor said, yeah, but do you believe it? It might not be the doctor. Maybe anyone who's an expert, you know, we get into this loop thing, you know, And it, it's really, quite disabling, you know,

Fiona 3:39

Hmm.

Billy 3:40

it's not particularly enabling and so going out with questions. Yeah, it's much better to go out with questions.

Fiona 3:47

Hmm.

Billy 3:47

It means the conversation isn't, the conversation is still beginning. It's like Amanda saying, yeah, You the question Billy, you know how did you get here? it's an ongoing dialogue. It's not a. it's not a nutshell

Amanda 4:02

Hmm. It reminds me, Billy, do you remember when I you probably don't remember cuz you read so much stuff, but when I did my supervision training with you, I decided that there was no beginning and no ending and that every essay I would rather irritatingly for Billy start in the middle.

Billy 4:22

Yeah.

Amanda 4:22

And end, in the middle, because there's something about middles that allow you. Be in a, in a place of continuous growth and change and circularity and something about beginnings or endings to me. that seem to stop that. So leaving with more questions feels comfortable in, its in its discomfort because it's a middle.

Billy 4:51

it's a Great. John Coltrane, a very important saxophonist was asked you know, how does he, how does he compose his music? And he says he always starts in the middle. And then works to the Edge

Amanda 5:04

Hmm.

Billy 5:07

And I think that's great. And, and I had an experience of that last week in, in My Thursday Clinic where people are learning to be therapists a very skillful person who's learning. Said she was talking with a young woman and, and we reflected on the conversation and what emerged in the conversation was that the young woman seemed to warm up towards the end of the conversation, but I, said, maybe the young person was already warmed up, but maybe it, was you that was warming up towards the end they

Fiona 5:40

laughed! Hmm.

Billy 5:41

And they said, oh, maybe that was it Anyway, that was a question that went away with her, And then she come back the next week so she's meeting with this client again and the therapist. I say, so what, what's, what's on your mind about this new conversation you're going to have with this young person? She says, I think I'm going to start at the end. and I said, oh, that's interesting. How are you going to do that the story. I'm telling you what she told me, you see, and she went in, she went in to to talk with this young person And she told the young person about her conversation about starting at the end,

Fiona 6:17

Hmm.

Billy 6:18

but she placed herself in a position of not noticing herself. Or noticing that she wa was warming up towards the end, so they thought they'd start at the end. It was one of the best conversations she ever had with a young person.

Fiona 6:32

Fantastic.

Billy 6:33

You see the moment you start at the beginning, nothing. Well, goodness me, you can't start at the beginning. Most people. you meet who are problematic are in the middle of the thing, you know? What's it like being in the middle

Amanda 6:48

'Cause we, we were thinking about that with this set of Open POD pods thinking how how do we begin them? What would be the first one?

Billy 6:59

It's easy. We just talk about jazz and music and dance and space, and that's how we get started.

Fiona 7:07

Well I think, I think episode one should be called the middle. And we'll go from there.

Amanda 7:12

But, but we have actually, in fairness, touched on some critical principles.

Fiona 7:18

definitely.

Amanda 7:19

But we have, we've talked about our own self-reflection. We've talked about truly listening and stopping and being quieter in the moment, and being aware of our own feelings, our own ands, our own beats. You know, we've talked about leaving with curiosity. And sitting with curiosity. We've talked about showing interest in who we are speaking to, and. What's going on for them and what are their interests and what conversations could we have that were not saturated problem saturated ones? We've talked about circular questioning. We've actually touched on quite a few principles without them being written into a list. You know, we talked about dialogue. We've created more dialogue. We've built upon it. We've built upon the polyphony of the voices, we've reflected on the people listening. So what seems like a conversation about a musical score has actually been much richer when you reflect on it.

Billy 8:31

and we're still back at the question.

Amanda 8:33

Yes, we are

Billy 8:34

Interestingly enough, after nearly an hour and a half of talking how did we get here?

Fiona 8:40

Mm

Amanda 8:41

Hmm

Billy 8:41

still present.

Amanda 8:43

mm. And, and maybe it doesn't have a linear answer. And maybe, and, and maybe that's how our clients feel, you know, they don't have a linear answer

Billy 8:57

Yeah.

Amanda 9:00

either. They, they, they can feel, you can feel very pigeonholed on the spot, can't you? When you are the identified client.

Fiona 9:11

but you know as human beings, we're not linear. Are we at all? Thank goodness. Yeah. I mean, we're made up of curves and soft bits, hard bits, but our lives also are made up of those things. A, person as they stand before you, is not a list. And doesn't fit into a a box. And I think that to feel as if we would rather that even ourselves fitted into a box or fitted into somebody's expectations, our own expectations, to feel as if we ought to fit something I think is something, that. Have got used to, and that we've accepted and that we've internalized almost so that: Sitting with a non-linear narrative, sitting with people who don't fit into boxes or or make lists that start at the start, go to, the middle and, then end at the end is fundamentally uncomfortable for us and for everybody who's in any open dialogue meeting?

Amanda 10:19

I do, you know, I don't know so much Fiona, because I think I hear what you've said. But from my experience so far with teams and with the intervision, I think that people think they're comfortable with that. But when you actually go back to the original question that we are talking about is what got you here And who are you within this practice and within your work? I think people have needed to, because of the medical model, laminate themselves to a point where they feel that they think they're comfortable, but actually when you scratch off the surface, they're not comfortable. And I think it's a contributory factor to people getting burnt out, people leaving the profession, because I think we do as human beings have a moral code of conduct, and I'm not sure that sometimes ticking the lists or sometimes needing to go through questions at speed because the system expects it of you and you don't have the time to sit with somebody, I don't think it does sit well and therefore this sits uncomfortably. I think what might be uncomfortable about this is the fact that it's been subjugated for so long and bringing that feeling up to the surface feels very, very difficult. I'm not sure, but I don't think it's as, I think it's more complex than that.

Fiona 11:52

Yeah, it's nowhere near as cut and dried as I described.

Billy 11:57

And yet when you. When you can no longer tolerate discomfort and you're ticking a box, it's usually a bad sign. If, if you're still feeling discomfort and even in as in an open dialogue context is it then becomes an ethical responsibility if you're sat there in a dialogue and it's a therapeutic process is how can I make this discomfort that I'm experiencing useful to the client. So how can I you use the word laminate? and I think that's a nice description. How can I laminate my responses so that it's received in an ethical lamination for the client so that I can exercise my responsibility towards them, even although It comes from a position of discomfort. because it moves you you know, you. get moved in all sorts of different ways. It's just noticing that it's there.

Amanda 12:56

Hmm

Billy 12:56

be it nature, it might be, when you were talking earlier, Fiona, about feeling something in your heart. you know, we experience these things in our bodies we are easily dismiss them, but we can, we can notice the discomfort. Say, I wonder what that is. We feel sadness for others. We feel empathy for others. We feel happiness for others. We feel emotional responses to lots and lots of things that we see and and and we might see it physically up close and we might see horror and we might respond to that. We experience all of these things, but sometimes we don't have words to connect with them, because it can be overwhelming or horrific, or are, are we just are in floods of tears because it seems so horrible, but the tears are also telling us something. it's a communication.

Amanda 13:49

I mean, you've sort of touched on to, which is a bigger topic or a separate topic, I guess, which is the reason why Intervision is so critical for us in this process so that when we're, we are moved or we are feeling in tears, that we've got a space to reflect and be with our colleagues without actually talking about the content of, of it, but talking about our own emotional responses to the work.

Billy 14:20

I think, I think the evocation of someone here is really important, and you may have come across these words before the are three very important words. They are blah, blah, blah,

Amanda 14:32

Mm-hmm.

Billy 14:33

they are, they're attributed to Paulo Friere. And it's a very simple thing that he said. It's very easy to remember. He said, without reflection, then it just, blah, blah, blah. And all you have is activism. Is activism without reflection is blah, blah, blah.

Fiona 14:55

Yeah,

Billy 14:56

and, and if you can avoid the blah, blah, blah, it means you're taking a different position in relation to what you've heard, or experienced. It's one of the lesser known things about Friere but he was an educational philosopher and you know, he said lots of good things. I usually get students to write them down. you know? I say I've got three very important words to say, you need to write this down. and they're already with pencils and then they fall about laughing'cause it, and they don't forget it. You see

Amanda 15:22

Hmm

Fiona 15:23

I like that.

Billy 15:25

But Amanda's just reminded me of it,

Amanda 15:28

It's funny cuz this conversation's reminding me of some of the edges of how we learnt together and continue to,

Billy 15:38

one last book before we sign off

Amanda 15:40

oh, another book told you, warned you all

Billy 15:44

it's one that f it seems to fit the moment'cause we've talked, we've touched on the edges of performance. The idea of Amanda sitting back a bit and having a bit more space, so to, to offer us some reflections, you know, and sometimes we can get organized by the performativity aspect. And last year, last summer, I bought a book. It's, it's one of those things, I read one book and I have to find the source of the quotation in one book, you know, and I end up connecting with it. But I ended up reading a book called the Stanoslavski Toolkit and the Stanoslavski toolkit was written by a professor of acting, but it's a brilliant, I should have read the book 20 or 30 years ago. Because it so embodies systemic thinking and practice and open dialogue that it should not be missed. And I read it in about three days. It was brilliant. And sometimes people look at me and say, oh my God, he's talking, about acting now. What's this got to do with therapy? Well, a lot of the therapy we do is acting into something. In the shorter sort of way of thinking, we're acting into a space,

Fiona 16:52

Yeah. we should

Billy 16:53

be mindful of it and ourselves.

Fiona 16:58

Thank you so much to you both. Thank you, Billy, for all your wisdom. Thank you, Amanda, for having the idea and bringing us all together. Fingers crossed that it all comes out okay in the mix.

Amanda 17:11

Thank

Billy 17:12

you. for your contribution.

Fiona 17:14

You

Amanda 17:14

Thank you. Thank you for being you.

Billy 17:16

hopefully you got a flavor of what open dialogue is

Narrator 17:21

and that's it for this episode of Open Pod pod. Join us for the next episode.