Phoenix PD's Bold Pushback Against DOJ Overreach

When the Phoenix Police Department stood firm against the Department of Justice's consent decree, they didn't just shake the foundations of federal oversight—they may have redefined the future of American policing. This groundbreaking episode peels back the layers of a deeply contentious issue.

In an era where principle often succumbs to pressure, this conversation heralds the valor of steadfast leadership. We probe into the intricate dance of autonomy versus federal intervention, dissecting the Phoenix PD's assertive reforms and the DOJ's potential legal challenges amidst a politically charged atmosphere. As Dr. Yates champions the virtues of unwavering conviction, join us for a compelling exploration of how a single act of defiance could be a harbinger of change for local law enforcement agencies nationwide.

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Transcript

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The Historic Stand Against Consent Decrees

Intro/Outro 0:02

Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates , where leaders find the insights , advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously .

Travis Yates 0:12

Welcome back to the show . I'm so honored that you're spending a few minutes with us here today and this is going to be a quick take . I wanted to make sure you were aware of the historic incident that occurred on January 11th of 2024 . There's a lot going on out there and if you weren't paying attention you probably missed it , but if you've listened to some of our podcasts in the past , you know I've spoken about the Phoenix Police Department and the ongoing Department of Justice investigation . As of today , it is the longest DOJ investigation in consent decree history , approaching the three-year mark , and it is probably already over . Although Phoenix hasn't heard anything , they've given them literally 10 years of data , terabytes of data , countless videos . I could pull it up here . It's actually I'm going to reference an article that it's actually in and you can read it for yourself but to say that Phoenix has given them a lot of information is an understatement .

Travis Yates 1:23

Phoenix has spent , according to the media reports , over $6 million simply complying with request from the DOJ . Now I have a whole other thing to talk about that , so I'll just mention it briefly . Why would any police department that is responsible for their own budget , responsible for their own accountability , responsible for their own reforms . Let the DOJ investigate them , which is fine if you want to , but then why would you pay for that ? That literally makes no sense . I'm going to pay over $6 million , but the DOJ investigate me and let them call me the most racist police department in the country and put me under consent decree . But I'm going to pay for this , of course . Then you pay for the consent decree , which averages about $10 million a year after the initial $30 to $50 million influx of cash into that program . So that's crazy to me . I think these leaders think , oh , if I just comply , if I just do this , it doesn't matter . Every department they've gone and investigated , for the most part they have just treated horrifically and I'm not going to go into the background of consent decrees , because I've done that a lot . I want to encourage you to look at the podcast with Bob Scales , and then I did another podcast on Phoenix specifically , and up we actually have interviews with a contact in Phoenix and a contact in Albuquerque that has just been completely destroyed by consent decrees .

Travis Yates 2:47

It was kind of funny when it looked like Phoenix was not going to just simply agree to this chaos . Some local media ran with a story about the success of consent decrees and they cited Albuquerque . Of course , they got the chief on there to talk about how good this stuff was , and I didn't see off camera , but it certainly seemed like someone was threatening . And anyway , I digress my opinion only and it's hilarious because when I looked into it it took me about three minutes I said , ok , why did the ?

Travis Yates 3:14

Why did the DOJ come to Albuquerque ? Well , albuquerque I believe it's from the years 2008 to 2011 had 20 fatality shootings and that was the jail J's reason for coming , which literally doesn't make a lot of sense . Obviously , you need more information whether that's a constitutional issue . Just because you shot and killed 20 people . You may have shot and killed 20 people because those 20 people were trying to kill you , but they didn't talk about that , which leads me to believe that's probably the case . It was all justified shootings . In fact , I actually have a source in Albuquerque that told me there was none of it wrong , that this is what the DLJ does they give you very little information , they make things emotional , they use race and then everybody tends to just bend over and agree and it's complete . It's created disasters across the country . Once again , listen to those podcasts , but I'll give you a quick tidbit of what those will contain . 12 of the top 20 cities as I speak in America in murders are ran by the DLJ .

Travis Yates 4:11

So this is what consent decrees do , amongst a lot of other things . So it's bad business , it's bad news , but Phoenix did something historic that I thought I would never see . On January 11th , they sent a letter to the Department of Justice and they said we're not playing anymore . We're not going to sign your consent decree because you have to remember , the only way these consent decrees work is is if an agency agrees to it . In my opinion and I believe everyone at the Supreme Court is to be clearly be found to be unconstitutional practice . The 10th Amendment is very clear . That states the federal government is substituent of the states . Local governments can run their own local government . The only power the federal government has is that power given to them in the Constitution , and consent decrees are not in the Constitution . It's . So taking over a local police department by the federal government if it's forced is clearly unconstitutional . It would take a court case to settle that and I believe it would be a no brainer , but up until now that hasn't happened because all these cities just agree . Well , phoenix looked around in the 30 years of chaos that consent decrees cause and they said this isn't for us .

Travis Yates 5:20

Now , this is a political machine and so politics drives most of this . Phoenix is a most of politicians . Vast majority are Democrat , and this is , of course , you know . This is the type of cities DOJ goes to . They don't really go to conservative cities where they're going to get some people questioning them , but it's usually politics . Democrat presidents use these . Donald Trump didn't use any of these . I think George Bush used one of them , so these are really heavy handed and are Democrat presidents , so it's highly political . I believe Barack Obama did 14 or 15 . Biden is on pace to beat that . So usually I think the DOJ sees a politically aligned city and knows they won't have a problem , but somehow , some way , through a lot of effort by a lot of people , the city of Phoenix has told the DOJ to get lost .

Travis Yates 6:10

Now , this is interesting because a major city Phoenix is the fifth largest city in the country , a major city to do this , even though I say it's historic . It is kind of common sense Because you need to understand how the DOJ operates . They do this investigation and they actually argue this . In Phoenix they came to the city council who has to make the decision . They said we want you to sign for a consent decree . We found problems . And the city council said , well , can we read the investigation ? The DOJ says no , which is crazy to me , right , like if you conducted an investigation and it's clear as day what's going on and it's bad , why would you not show that to the political powers ? To be , well , the only thing I can think of is it's not convincing , right , and so they won't show it to them .

Travis Yates 6:53

And so the counselors , I say , made a bold move . They just kind of as a common sense move . Nobody in their right mind would sign anything of this magnitude without actually seeing what they're signing . But the public letter to the DOJ is next level . It's one thing to tell the DOJ in private we're not signing it . It's another thing to write a public letter to the head of the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division and say no , not doing it . So what would the DLJ do ? This is sort of uncharted territory . They've never really had to face this in a major city .

Debate on Consent Decrees in Phoenix

Travis Yates 7:26

Well , there's an article out there on the website that's really been documenting all this stuff in Phoenix and it is important to you because it pulls in a bunch of national articles , so consent decrees . When they've gone across the country it's almost been localized into media . So most people don't even understand what consent decrees are because of that . Well , this website has pulled all of that in and if you want a master's level degree in what a consent degree is , you've got to check this out . It's savephxcom , savephxcom and they have been . I mean , it is just straight factual data . It lines out what's happened to these other cities , really damning when it comes to a consent decree . And so here's what I'm going to kind of tell you . What this article says is pretty important . It says now the DLJ has three different options .

Travis Yates 8:18

The Phoenix Police Department asked for a technical assistance letter and Phoenix did something pretty smart . Not only did they send a letter telling the DLJ we're not doing it , they sent a 50 page document lining out all the reforms that the agency has done in recent years , and it's pretty massive . It's hard to argue when you read that , like if consent decrees are legitimately for reforming agencies . Phoenix just answered their question we don't need this consent decree because we have reformed and we have shown that Pretty amazing . I'll link that document in the show notes .

Travis Yates 8:56

And what that did to the DLJ is it kind of cut their legs out because you don't understand what the DLJ would do here . Okay , the counselor is not going to agree . We're going to come into town , we're going to do a press conference , we're going to release this summary report just a summary report . They've never released the full investigation because they really can't . It's chock full of hoes , but it's just a summary report . And they're going to call Phoenix the most horrific things in the world . And then they're going to go to federal court and possibly file a lawsuit to try to force a consent decree .

Travis Yates 9:23

But what Phoenix did before that happened was tell Phoenix and the whole country because it was very public what they did . They're not doing this and this is why , folks , it's a high , it's strategic communication 101 . It's brilliant . So the DLJ is in a tough spot . No one's even heard from them yet , but they're in a tough spot . And Phoenix said we want a technical assistance letter because we have shown we were able to reform and we're continuing to do so . And all that basically is is the DLJ gives them a letter saying we came , we investigated , you're doing great . Keep it up bye . It doesn't say exactly , but you know what I mean . It's not a consent decree , that's what Phoenix asked for . They're not going to get that and I agree with this article because they haven't done those . With the DLJ , I believe , in about 12 years they used to do those once in a while . They don't do them because you got to understand this .

Travis Yates 10:11

Consent decrees are not about reform . If they were , they would look at Phoenix and Phoenix . In 2016 , the Attorney General called Phoenix one of the finest police departments in the country . And 2021 , the DOJ partnered with them on a bunch of training stuff and Phoenix was actually training other departments on how to be a good department . It's not about reform , because Phoenix is a really good department . Yeah , it's got its problems . All departments have their problems because we're made up of human beings . But , man , they do a really good job of vetting those problems , like many departments do . So it's not about reform .

Travis Yates 10:38

You see , consent decrees today are about reimagining and we don't know what that means . I think I know what it means based on what they've done to other cities . It means high crime . It means low morale . It's probably a side door to national control over policing , because that's exactly what focusing degrees are , and I don't make that up . Head people in the DLJ Civil Rights Division have said it's their desire to reimagine police . Okay , that's not anything I'm making up . They just won't tell you what that means . So I don't think it's about reform . Well , they won't give them a technical assistance letter , because it's not about reform , it's about reimagining for whatever sick twisted thing they think . That is .

Travis Yates 11:14

The second option is , is what I think will happen . The article says that I agree with it . The DLJ will call a press conference to release a summary report . They'll file a lawsuit in federal court . That's what will happen . I don't know when that's going to happen . As this article pointed out , there's an election year . Arizona is kind of an important state in the election year , presidential election year . Phoenix , maricopa County is definitely an important place in the election year and I'm not sure the DLJ politically will want a public fight against the city of Phoenix this year . So it may be on hold , but that's what I think they'll do , based on what they've done in the past .

Travis Yates 11:50

When other people have told them no , they go to federal court , they start the ball rolling and then magically , before discovery , they come to an agreement with the department and usually do a consent decree anyway . Maybe it's a watered down one , but it's still a problem . See , the reason the federal court is a bluff of the DLJ is they can't go to discovery and they definitely can't go to trial because there's no evidence . I mean , there's some things that they'll make sound bad in the summary report , but if you dove into the actual evidence and I know this from looking at a lot of consent decrees if you dove into all the evidence , nothing's there .

Travis Yates 12:24

You know they'll do things like they'll talk about three or four incidents . They don't tell you the context of those incidents . They don't tell you what the department did in response to those incidents . Because I know in Louisville , louisville signed off on it . Then they got their hands on the investigation and they're like wait a minute , you called all these . You said all these officers are violating civil rights , but that one they didn't , because we investigated that and cleared them . And this one you talked about , but we fired that officer . We're doing our job , doesn't matter , you've already signed it . That's why they don't want you to read it before you sign it .

Travis Yates 12:53

To a civilian listener this and I'm sure there's some of you out there . This sounds insane , but this is the whole secrecy behind it . They don't want you . The DLJ doesn't want people to actually know what this is , because it sounds good . Right , dlj , police reform , we're helping . It's unbelievable . And if you , if I've peaked your interest at all , you have to check this website out savephxcom .

Travis Yates 13:15

So those are the first two things . They'll just give Phoenix what they want , which they will not do . They will do what I think they have done in the past these . They'll call them a bunch of names and they'll follow a federal lawsuit and try to make everybody believe they're racist . But Phoenix has done a really good job of getting ahead of that with this 50 page document .

Travis Yates 13:30

Or the third plane is DOJ will just leave . They won't do that . See , this is important for the DLJ . They they've been doing this for 30 years to cities . I know a lot of chiefs that run around and they are always scared of the DLJ . They don't want this and they're doing things to avoid this . Well , they really can't . The DLJ just picks and chooses whoever they want . It doesn't really matter . But they can't just will go away , because then what Phoenix did here will give other cities an idea hey , maybe we don't need to do this either , and then the consent decree industrial complex goes away . So they definitely won't leave .

Travis Yates 14:07

I think they'll file the lawsuit . I'm just going to give you my prediction now . They're going to file the lawsuit , they're going to get down the road and then they're going to end up giving if Phoenix holds strong , because the lawsuit is just part of a bluff . It's a part about intimidation , it's a part to scare the city of Phoenix . But you shouldn't be scared . Let the evidence show the light of day .

Travis Yates 14:28

No one has got the deal J to that point . No one . All right , so that's what needs to happen . But I think , as he gets closer to discovery and discovery is important because then we get to see behind the curtain of what's going on here and they don't want you to see that I think . I think the deal J will just fold and give them a TAL and they'll give them what they want , and that will show you and expose you exactly what this really is .

Travis Yates 14:54

And the reason I think it's historic , first off , is no city stood up to them at this level like this , a larger city like this . One other city actually did stand up in one in court , but this is a large city , phoenix is a big deal and I certainly hope that this profession gets a different mindset about the deal J . We should be reforming . We should be making ourselves better . The last group you want to do that is the Department of Justice . Cities actually get worse under consent decrees .

Travis Yates 15:23

I go back to my Albuquerque example , because that was heralded as a success story and that was more than likely , in my opinion , a deal J story . You know , if this is coming to the end , they want some positive stories to talk about how these consent decrees are great , and they found Albuquerque to do their bidding for them . Are you ready for this ? And Albuquerque Deal J comes there in 2011 , 2012 , because the last three years was 20 shootings . Guess what the last three years under consent decree Albuquerque shootings are . That's right . Remember 20 fatality shootings when the deal J came ? As I speak , it's 30 fatality shootings during the consent decree . Where's crime at ? Oh , violent crime is up 40% since the deal J came . Oh , murders in 2022 were an all time record in Albuquerque and they haven't released the 23 data , but my sources tell me that 23 broke 22 . And that is the idea of success In a consent decree .

Scam and Leadership Problems

Travis Yates 16:21

This is a scam , folks , and it's a leadership problem . I don't blame the deal J and their industrial complex to grow out here and try to make money for people and lawyers and to do this is what they do . I blame leaders in this profession that let this happen and hopefully the complete story will be told in Phoenix one day of the leaders that stood up and finally said this is the right decision for my department and my agency and this is what we're going to do , no matter the backlash and the deal J is a big behemoth that can give you some backlash . So I applaud them and everyone else should take note and be encouraged . Thank you for listening and just remember lead on and stay courageous .

Intro/Outro 17:07

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