Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Courageous Leadership with Dr. Travis Yates Podcast examines what it means to be a Courageous Police Leader. Join us weekly as the concepts of Courageous Leadership are detailed along with interviews with influencers that are committed to leading with courage. You can find out more about Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates at: www.TravisYates.org
Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
The Silent Crisis in Law Enforcement Leadership
Law enforcement leadership training avoids addressing toxic leadership because the very leaders creating toxic environments are often the ones funding training programs. The focus on positive psychology and war stories rather than confronting real leadership problems prevents meaningful change in police organizations.
• Most popular law enforcement speakers either have no police experience or tell entertaining stories without addressing real issues
• Training companies explicitly instruct trainers to avoid discussing toxic leadership to protect revenue streams
• External challenges to policing (media, politics, activists) haven't changed significantly in decades
• What has changed is how leaders respond—now apologizing and sacrificing officers instead of defending them
• Rank-and-file officers recognize leadership problems immediately while higher-ranking officials often resist these conversations
• Leadership improvement requires honestly addressing problems, not just offering positive platitudes
• Plans to develop online programs and train-the-trainer certification to empower officers regardless of rank
• True leadership isn't about rank but about influence and integrity at all levels
Remember to lead on and stay courageous as you navigate the challenges of law enforcement leadership.
Join Our Tribe of Courageous Leaders:
Get The Book
Get Weekly Articles by Travis Yates
Join Us At Our Website
Get Our 'Courageous Leadership' Training
Join The Courageous Police Leadership Alliance
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates:Welcome back to the show. I'm so honored you've decided to spend a few minutes with us here today and I hope you've enjoyed our recent episodes. If you haven't listened to the last episode with Randy Sutton from the Wounded Blue man, what a phenomenal podcast that was. You know we spoke to Randy before. We have him on here about once a year and I'm always amazed of why he's one of the only ones that are speaking so many of these truths, and that's kind of what I want to speak about today. So many of these truths and that's kind of what I want to speak about today, as I mentioned a few weeks ago, is we're going to start doing more of these sort of just random thoughts. For me and it's not a random thought, but it's thoughts that a lot of times that we give in classes or maybe we'll post online or people I'll send through email to somebody who's maybe asking a question, and I wanted to bring them to you. This podcast is reaching more people than I ever thought it would. I don't know what I thought when we began it a few years ago, but I'm certainly honored that I could reach out and touch more people with the podcast than I really can, in a week or two, from training on the road, a silence within the profession at the leadership point, to where what's wrong, what needs to happen.
Travis Yates:And I started thinking about this a few years ago and I'm not going to name any names, but I was at a pretty major conference and I was speaking at the conference but I came in a day early because I wanted to listen to the keynote speaker, a very famous military person, never been in law enforcement, but if I told you his name you would all recognize his name Been in a little controversy in recent months, but you would all recognize his name. And the room was packed and this keynote was, I don't know, 20 or 30 minutes and this guy went on to talk about how the entire profession is wrong. They're doing this wrong, their tactics are wrong, wrong, they're doing this wrong, their tactics are wrong. We've done these high profile, you know, police shootings or in custody deaths or because we're doing this wrong or that wrong. And, quite frankly, I'm listening to it and I'm thinking to myself he has his facts completely wrong. It was like he watched CNN before he walked up on stage. He was a very dynamic speaker and he was obviously popular within law enforcement because of his online presence and his military background. And he got done and he got a standing round of applause and everybody throughout the conference kept talking about what a great speaker he was. And I'm sitting here thinking to myself not only was almost everything he said factually incorrect, including how law enforcement should do tactics, but this guy giving the information had never wore a uniform in law enforcement, never made an arrest, never had to use force under the parameters of law enforcement use of force, and we took him as completely credible. And even you know very good at what he did and I have discovered that very oddly.
Travis Yates:You know I'm not going to. You know name the names that you're all thinking of, but I'm always. You know people will come up to me at a break during class or they'll call me and they'll talk about something they heard from this person or that person which would be an online sort of celebrity. You know past military person, you know the biggest names you can think of, and sometimes I think, well, yeah, that sounds great, but it's completely a basic terminology and it doesn't really even apply to law enforcement.
Travis Yates:But there's this infatuation with people outside of law enforcement, with people outside of law enforcement particularly. You know, I say oftentimes military because that's the barrier sometimes that is easily gets in front of these audiences. And nothing against the military. I love the military, but I wonder if the military is bringing in cops to speak to the military. Well, the answer is no and it took me a while to figure it out. I was a little perplexed because, quite frankly, some of these guys are a lot busier than me. You know, I did 30 years of law enforcement and I've done some things in law enforcement leadership and. But they're getting up here and they're saying things that don't even relate to what actual practical law enforcement is and they're doing very, very well.
Travis Yates:And then there's other speakers, uh, in law enforcement that came from law enforcement, that are very, very popular. Nothing against them, they're very popular. And you probably would recognize a couple of these names if I said them to you and I've flown in early to conferences when I was speaking to hear them, because I want to say, well, I want to hear what they're saying, because obviously they're very, they're very popular and they're doing very well. They're on the road 100, 150 days a year and I listen to them and I'm thinking well, this is a great speech, it's a great talk, there's a lot of jokes, there's a lot of war stories, but where is it moving the needle? I mean, basically, what I came to find out is is, when it comes to the business of leadership, you better not really talk about what's wrong with leadership.
Travis Yates:The business of leadership on how to be very popular is to be a good speaker, tell some funny jokes, tell some war stories and make the audience feel really good about themselves. And that is sort of that was the theme that I saw when I saw some of these top level speakers. And then you couple that with what I mentioned at the start of this, which is people outside of law enforcement don't know anything about law enforcement that we somehow are enamored by, and I sort of came to the conclusion and I used to. Honestly, that used to upset me because I'm like I want to change things, I want things to be better, I want to push the needle to make this profession to be as good as it possibly can be, to be as professional as it possibly could be, and most of the people that I'm talking about here have been on the road for many, many years and nothing's changed and nobody seems to put two and two together because nothing they're saying is going to change anything, and that's great for them. That's just not me. I'm not going to waste my time and energy if I don't think I can help change something for the better, and so I have respect for those men and women. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not here trashing anybody. That's their decision to do what they do and it's very, very successful. It's very popular. I've made the conscious decision to probably not be as successful or as popular because I have erred on the side of. I want to make you think to the point to where you may change things and that change makes the profession better.
Travis Yates:But I got to thinking about it. Here is why we're so. I think we know why we're so enamored by the people inside the inside law enforcement. That makes us feel good about ourselves. That's just psychology, one on one. But why are we enamored by people outside of law enforcement that has no idea what law enforcement does, cannot, cannot talk about practicality with law enforcement? Why is that? When it comes to leadership and here is, I think, the answer the reason is they aren't us. Law enforcement leadership has completely destroyed the utter fabric and morality of this profession. Not every leader, but many leaders. Now you know why this isn't popular.
Travis Yates:So if you're an audience or you're a conference or you're choosing where to go, why would you want to hear from somebody inside law enforcement to speak on leadership when you know at your agency, the leaders have destroyed your agency Once again? Speaking in general terms, this is not every agency. Scott Hughes, don't listen to this and get upset. You're a great leader. I can name a bunch of other ones right, but I think you know exactly what I'm talking about. So why would you listen to somebody from the profession that's trying to change things, or even a leadership class? Maybe you come to my class because you know me and you want to see me, but if you don't know me from anybody, why would you come to a class, a leadership class being given by someone in law enforcement, when you know how bad leadership is in law enforcement? In fact, most of their leaders have been to all the fancy classes FBI, na and PERF where all the East Coast chiefs go to die, iacp, this or that.
Travis Yates:I've gotten my quadruple trilogy challenge coin, I've done all of this training and I'm inside this department making your life hell. So why would you want to go to that training? And hopefully you understand where I'm going with this. I think that's the reason. Now the question is what do you do about that? Well, here's what you do about that. You can't let it affect you. You've got to find the right training, the right books, the right courses, because you are responsible for you. I don't care what your leaders are doing or what your bosses are doing or what your supervisors are doing or what your managers are doing. You get to make a choice on how you lead, and you can overcome that quite easily. I'll tell you how I overcame it and I wasn't always perfect. But I looked at a bad leader and I said let's just try the opposite, let's see how that works Right, so you could actually learn from bad leaders just as much as you can from good leaders.
Travis Yates:And then it really hit home last week when I was sitting down with a fellow trainer. He works for a large training company I'm definitely not going to mention the name of this and he was telling me how upset he was because his bosses have explicitly told him that when he talks about leadership, to never mention toxic leadership. And I said what are you talking about? He goes yeah, they, they don't want me to ever talk about how poor leadership is in law enforcement when I talk to law enforcement and I was like this doesn't make any sense, then why are you teaching a leadership class? He says, well, this is what the bosses tell me. If I talk about toxic leadership in these classes, the people that are inside these agencies that are the actual toxic leaders oftentimes are the ones writing the check to bring us in and they don't want to hurt that revenue. And it became crystal clear to me at that moment why I'm not on the road 100 days a year. I mean, I'm very thankful to be on the road when I'm on the road, but I already knew this, by the way.
Travis Yates:But it became crystal clear that if we're unable to talk about the problems in leadership, how are you ever going to come up with solutions? Because then you just have nothing more than a positive psychology class raw, raw war stories. Let's make you feel good, which is why the ones that are very popular out there are so popular. And it's pretty sad and amazing at the same time, and I don't have an answer for it other than how do you not improve leadership if you don't talk about what's wrong with leadership.
Travis Yates:See, if you go to the doctor today and you walk in the doctor's office and the doctor said, listen, we're going to start chemotherapy next week, you're going to freak out because where did that come from? Right, he's never going to do that. What the doctor is going to do is he's going to first talk about your problem and then he's going to talk about how to solve the problem. And that is the missing link in much of what I'm seeing out there. And you know, and when you go to social media, everybody's a consultant, everybody's a leadership guru, and they all got the positive quotes and very few people will ever tell you what is wrong. But I'm thinking to myself well, if nothing's wrong, why are you promoting yourself to fix the problem when you're not even talking about the problem? It's very, very confusing, trust me. So if you're about to wreck your car right now, please don't. But when I talk when I heard that from my friend, a great guy but when I talk, when I heard that from my friend, a great guy I mean this is a legitimate leadership company, large in the profession, and they have instructed people to not talk about toxic leadership, which is why the entire profession is crumbling in front of our eyes.
Travis Yates:You see, what people don't seem to understand is that you can blame the media and you can blame politics, and you can blame the activists and you can blame whatever you want, but none of that is new. I started this profession in 1993 and the media lied and the activists lied and everyone tried to take advantage of the profession and lawyers were circling the buildings because they knew they could sue us for whatever and people were even videoing us back in the 90s. I know they weren't a phone, but it was still happening and they were still manipulating. That. Nothing has changed. But what has changed is how leaders responded to it. That's what's changed. You try to lie against a cop. 20 years ago, leaders would be fighting at the microphone to tell the whole world what a liar they were. Today, they'll change your policy, they'll change your training and they'll say they're sorry, even though there's nothing to be sorry for. And you wonder what's happened in the profession. So it's very crazy. So it's very crazy. It's very crazy.
Travis Yates:Those that are purporting to consult or train or change this profession. They will never mention that it's those behind the walls of the police building that's actually causing all the problems. And I guess, from a business standpoint, I understand it, but from a integrity standpoint, a courageous standpoint, I can't think of anything more cowardly in my life that you have a platform and you have an opportunity to impact the lives of some heroes, some of the greatest heroes in our communities, to make their lives better, to make communities safer, and you choose to tell funny stories and to stay popular. Good luck with that. Okay, I hope you enjoy your 401k. But good luck with that, because I got to think that you know, at the end of the day, how weak and cowardly you are. So our decision is this I will tell you right now, from a personal standpoint, I don't have a business.
Travis Yates:Ok, there's not enough people that want to hear what I have to say, and I'm not saying I'm the stone cold expert. Listen to me or else. But I know this If you don't speak about the problems in leadership, you're never going to correct the problems in leadership, and that's what I'm about. That's what I hope you're about, and there is a group that very much wants to hear this and very much wants to fix this. They don't have bars on their collar. They're the line officers. I see it in their faces.
Travis Yates:For the last decade I've been speaking about this in groups and I see it. I see it in their faces. For the last decade I've been speaking about this in groups and I see it. I see the captains roll in their eyes and I see the officers loving it because they know so. But the problem with that is is most of the officers they're not writing the checks, they're not making the decisions, and so what we're going to do, we're going to work on in the next few months, is we're going to try to bring this to as many of the officers or the individuals that want to take it, regardless of the decision makers because oftentimes the decision makers are the cowards I'm talking about and that's going to be a pretty robust online program, potentially even a train, the trainer program or certification program. It's a heavy lift. It's going to. It will not happen in 2025. But if you listen to this, in 2026 and beyond, I certainly hope it has happened.
Travis Yates:More than likely, you'll get that information at travisyeatsorg, but that is something that I have sort of resisted, but I've come to the conclusion that if we truly want to move the needle. We're going to have to empower thousands of other people to do what we do here. I wrote the book for that very reason to get this information to the masses. The book has done very well. It's the Courageous Police Leader. You can get it on any major bookstore. It's done very well, but it hasn't moved the needle in a massive way. We're still seeing similar issues that we've always seen.
Travis Yates:So I think it's about time that I do what I keep telling you in classrooms, which is to empower you. Leaders should empower others, and so we're going to be working on some programs in the coming months to do that very thing to empower you, to let you dive into as much as you want to, to take this message to others, because you listening here that have no rank will one day have rank. You listening here that aren't sitting at the top desk you're not the chief or the sheriff. You will one day be that, and that's how we change things. We change things generationally to where those that want this now it sticks with them throughout their career and now they're not only a leader but they have some sort of power and influence because of their status. Because, remember, leadership's got nothing to do with your rank. Everyone listening to this is a leader. So that's going to be a challenge for me and it will also be a challenge for you to want this and to pursue this. That's what we're working on.
Travis Yates:I'm still going to the classrooms. You know, the next couple of weeks I'm still traveling and people are still asking for this and I'm very grateful for that, but it's not. It's not going to hit the masses by hitting a couple of classrooms every couple of weeks. Ok, it's time, just like this podcast is done. This podcast reaches more people in a year than I can in person. It's time to extend what we do to you, and so that's what we're going to work on. Thanks for listening to me. These are sometimes just some rants and some thoughts and things, and maybe you're not interested in it, but I think it does break up some of the interviews we do and it gives you a different perspective, and I don't I don't think you should agree with all it. What a boring world this would be if you agreed with everything that I said, but I hope it just makes you think about it. Thanks for listening and just remember lead on and stay courageous.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates. We invite you to join other courageous leaders at travisyatesorg.
