From Maxim Magazine to Teaching Children with Learning Difficulties: Jamie Hooper

In this episode, Jamie Hooper shares his remarkable journey from the magazine industry to teaching math to students with learning differences. He emphasizes the undervalued role of classroom teachers, underlining the importance of mentorship and deep connections with students. Jamie's transition from the high-energy world of advertising and magazines, including his time at Maxim, takes a poignant turn as he describes a personal crisis in his 40s, leading him to prioritize family and venture into education.

Over the past 15 years, Jamie has dedicated himself to teaching math to students with dyslexia and language-based learning issues, incorporating strategies to build self-esteem and create an engaging learning environment. He also offers valuable advice for parents and emphasizes the impact of early intervention. This episode unveils the adaptability of skills across different fields, demonstrating how mastery can profoundly benefit students with learning differences.

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Jamie 0:00

I would say the thing that has helped me, the thing that I've always been good at through tons of failure, tons, right. But one thing I have never failed at is collecting mentors. I mean, I just saw wherever I was at, somebody older than me, more experienced than me. Doing something that I wanted to do, I was never shy about grabbing them and saying, can you teach me please?

Intro 0:26

Welcome to Everyday Masters, the show where we seek to understand mastery. People who have it, people who try for it, people who struggle with it, and how we all manifest it in our own lives. Welcome to Everyday Masters. Everyday Masters. Everyday Masters. Everyday Masters. Everyday masters, everyday masters.

Diamond 0:51

Hello Maury. How you doing, my friend?

Sterling 0:54

Hi Craig. I am, how am I doing? Well it's funny because you and I just had a conversation a little bit before recording today where you really asked me that. You're like, how are you doing? And what was strange for me is I actually came up with the answer of I'm too busy to answer that question.

Diamond 1:10

Well, it's better than having idle time.

Sterling 1:13

I think for me in a, a way that's good because I've spent a lot of time in my life really, self-involved on that. Like, how am I, and spending a lot of time like picking it apart and dwelling on it. So in some ways, I actually think it is progress, but then there's the flip side of it of like, no, you need to check in and when a good friend is like checking in on you. So I think I'm, I'm, just continue to be in this new chapter of life, which is a lot about literal sort of production and how to do that. And it's, very stressful at times. It's also really cool 'cause I'm, I'm having to face a lot of stuff and learn new techniques and. All kinds of stuff. So it's a mixed bag. I think overall the shorter answer is am well. How are you?

Diamond 1:55

Good. I'm doing good. the one thing I would say, I don't know when people will listen to this we hit a milestone with Everyday Masters and we publish our 10th episode. So we started in January 2023. Yeah.

Sterling 2:09

Fanfare? Sound effects.

Diamond 2:12

Fireworks, digital fireworks right now are exploding. and then I've, I've learned recently that most podcasts people will burn out and wash out around seven episodes. So It's

Sterling 2:22

Our audience burned out at seven. I don't know, but

Diamond 2:24

Yeah. No, there's nobody here. There's nobody here. They, it still is just you and I. Yeah. No it's us, but by the way, our guest is laughing behind the screen there. we have one listener today who has to be here, that's for sure. But, I'm feeling really proud of that. it's, a fun endeavor. I, realize that in making the podcast and talking to Masters, the idea of persevering, the idea of putting in your hours, the idea of making mistakes to get better. It's interesting that in doing the podcast, I get to practice a lot of the things that we learn, you know, week after we can talk to these people. That said, I'm super fired up to introduce this episode's guest. Jamie Hooper. Jamie was a founding member of the Maxim magazine team. And now is a master at teaching children with dyslexia and language-based learning problems. Jamie and I worked together, I can't even believe it. It's like 20 years ago. We worked together and then the guy went through this kind of incredible pivot and he uses the word pivot and it'll be interesting to hear him talk about pivot then where he landed and where his mastery. Really settled on is something so fascinating 'cause it's quite far from where he started in many respects and something I know that we can all attach to. And the guy is absolutely a, fantastic human being. And without further ado, I am very excited to introduce Jamie Hooper.

Jamie 3:54

Hello,

Sterling 3:55

There he is.

Diamond 3:56

Yay.

Jamie 3:58

Contact. I'm almost speechless. Not quite. Thank you. Thank you for that intro, man. Really I, so appreciate it. And you know, it was 24 years ago that we worked together in the digital Hollywood space in the early days. You were absolutely the best and only good thing that came out of it, but I'll take it. It was great

Diamond 4:18

Jamie's one of these guys where every time I see him that's like I can't believe I don't see more of you always feel like you're, you know, so close. But yet we don't talk that much and but we can maintain the closeness. And so we put the podcast out and Jamie was one that responded like a great friend that kind of came out of the woodwork and was like, Hey man, this thing's super cool. And we started talking and then the conversation we realized, wow, I cannot believe where Jamie's life and career and passions have taken him. And so the first thing, Jamie, is when you thought about being on a podcast called Masters, did you think?

Jamie 4:54

Well, I listened. First of all, I was, I think I was one of your very first listeners in your, when it was just the two of you, episode one. It was me and Doritt who were listening.

Diamond 5:05

Right. Okay. It.

Jamie 5:06

We called each other after. We, were kvelling. But so when I first heard it, first of all, I thought your idea was wonderful because I think I just, I believe, and I know it's at your core too, that our society sort of overrates mastery in too few things. So we absolutely adore and Maury, no offense, but we adore actors. We, give them god-like status, you know, film directors, musicians, you know, whatever. And you guys are interested in something very different. And I, it just, it struck a chord with me and it made me actually really think about myself. What I do with my kids as a classroom teacher is not seen by people. It's not something that's presented to the public. It's something that I do and fail a lot at. And, you know, it's about the connection with me and the kids, and the kids with each other and about their learning and development and, I said, wow, I love talking about what I do, and you and I'm every day, very much every day and over 15 years I think have developed some mastery.

Sterling 6:07

Jamie, I love how you said that, that there's sort of, there's a privacy to what we're getting out of. It's what we don't see. And there's all these things around us that we're not seeing. So we'll get to where you are now, but let's rewind a little bit. You guys talked a little bit about your past 24 years ago. You and Craig were in the digital space. But tell us a little bit about, 'cause I don't know you, I'm Craig's raves about you, but I don't really know. He's told me a little bit about your story, but maybe we can kind of start connecting the dots of, a little bit of the past that got you to where you are now.

Jamie 6:37

Sure, what I was for the first 18 years of my, working life from 1990 to 2008 was really like an old media warrior. I was in the magazine business, right? So I moved to New York in 1990. and I through, through two years of work in an ad agency. It was a little bit, it was like one of the old Mad Men aid ad agencies, but way, you know, sort of passed into the nineties. There were a few of those guys still limping around the office. But it was kind of a new day. my job was to place our clients advertising into the magazines. We got to select the magazines, we heard the sales pitches, and our team sort of decided where to put the money. And it was a cool job. But over time I, I saw a lot of pitches, two or three a day from different magazine people, and some of them were really good. And it opened my eyes to a world at magazine. See, I like everybody else, thought to work at a magazine, you had to be a writer and editor. Or someone who chose the graphics and does, or the photos and there's actually a whole team that goes out and sells the advertising. And so I was that guy.

Sterling 7:40

What, was it that turned you on about that? What was it that, that you saw those sales guys doing that made you feel like, I want to do that?

Jamie 7:48

It's like, anything else. I'm sure you went through this and Craig went through this. You know, when you're, you're at the early stages of building your career. You're watching really closely at other people, you know,

Sterling 7:58

Yep.

Jamie 7:58

And there's some good and a lot of bad, So, be honest, you know I saw a lot of bad pitches. Then there was something inside me that said, oh my God, I could do better than that. Meanwhile, the size of the Diamond on that person's finger fur coat and the bespoke suit and the tie and everything else, I was making $16,000 a year. Okay. So we had a lot of power. I had no money. Okay. So there was a motivator there a big And and then I think more importantly were the handful of, sales reps, that's what they call 'em, reptiles, sales reps, whatever. There's a whole lingo in the business, like every other business. So there were four or five that I became actually very close with and they took me under their wing and they were at Entertainment Weekly. One was at Food and Wine and there was one at the New Yorker who really liked me She told me, you know, if you want to get into sales, you know, they're looking to kind of get younger. I mean, the average age of a salesperson at that time at the New Yorker was probably 45. At 23 I was a very young the youngest, they had ever hired ad salesperson at the New Yorker magazine in New York. And that was a great run. I did that for five years. My time there coincided with the tenure of Tina Brown, who was a very famous editor of magazines in New York. She had turned around Vanity Fair. She came in and completely remade the New Yorker. She was an absolute genius, it was just phenomenal to work with her and watch her do her thing and go out into the market and get all kinds of new advertisers to support the magazine. I did that for five years, and then in 96, a guy I worked with who was older than me, who was like a mentor to me, had just taken a new job at this new British magazine that was launching in the United States, and it was called Maxim, and I had no idea what that was. I knew about Playboy, I knew about GQ. I knew that I didn't actually really like any of those kind of men's magazines. And he said no, no, no, no. no. This is like completely different. This is like English and it's funny and it's like got pictures of women in their underwear, but nobody's naked. And you know, we need an ad director, you gotta come over. And so I took so I said, sure. That's great. I really wanted something entrepreneurial. I wanted to help start something and so I I was one of the very few first employees of what turned out to be a really successful magazine. I mean, right from the get-go Maxim just exploded into the market and really kind of saw something that no one else did at that time. The idea of a men's magazine in the publishing business had kind of been written off. It was kind of all dated. It was all a little cheesy. And it was, you know, I mean, heh, Hugh Hefner was cool in the sixties, but not in 96. So like, so there was a moment for this sort of really body, funny, crazy real life magazine to connect with men in their twenties and thirties and younger and a little older. And the circulation just zoomed and it became a very big business. So I was there As the ad director for three years, and then I got itchy. I tend to get itchy after three year blocks, so I like, I wanna try new things. And I knew an investor in this company called Wire Break, which was based in Venice Beach and they had this creative guy named Craig Diamond, who I met. And he, they made shows, it was basically a television network for the internet and it was called Wire Break. And it was way, way ahead of its time. There was a lot of funny stuff being made,

Diamond 11:13

I gotta jump in real quick. Hoop, which is.

Jamie 11:15

Oh, to defend yourself.

Diamond 11:17

Well, definitely to defend myself. No, no Maury. I was gonna tell you, I, I remember it vividly because, you know, the world was crackling at that time. It was kind of like the internet boom was in full effect. I mean, this is like everybody's getting wealthy overnight kind of thing. Big dollars going into it. And I had worked at Paramount and then the president of Paramount was forming this company and then, like, we got our, MVP, right? And there was this guy that Jamie Hooper, the guy from Maxim Magazine, gonna come out New York and work with us. And I remember like, oh shit. Like we got, we j we have done it. You know, we got Jamie Hooper from Maxim, right?

Jamie 12:01

Craig, you're making me sound like Alec Baldwin in, uh, Glen Gary, Glen ross.

Sterling 12:06

He started when he was 22.

Jamie 12:08

Coffee for closers only.

Diamond 12:10

he was Alex. He walked in. He is like, you see this watch? I'm like, I don't have a watch. And he's like, get a fucking watch Diamond. No, but I was like, it was just such a, it was such a fun time. 'cause the dreams were so fricking big. Like every day we were, Jamie and I laugh about it now in hindsight, no dream was too big. when we would go, to San Francisco and sit with Levi's and try to explain what the hell we were doing. I mean, Just hilarious.

Jamie 12:38

Yeah, and they wanted it. The thing is they wanted it, but then they had to ask the question at the end of every meeting.

Diamond 12:44

Yeah.

Jamie 12:45

Who's watching? And we're like, it's a big idea. It's a big idea. You know, it's like, you know, it's a new thing we need, you know, You know, It was just an interesting moment where there was so much crazy hype. 99, 2000, some of these companies, not ours, but some of our competitors were going public and now we're suddenly worth a hundred million dollars worth $500 million. They had no audience, they had nothing. And those stocks, of course, within a year and a half, crashed and. Wire Break crashed as well. So then I went back to the company that published Maxim in New York and they had launched and I had helped a second magazine that was a lot like Maxim, it was called Stuff Magazine. And became the publisher of that magazine. I was a pretty young publisher. Maxim was a big magazine, and there weren't many guys at that time who were 30 years old and, being, the head publisher of the magazine. So that was a great experience for me. And then within two years, they moved me back to Maxim as the group publisher of like the whole brand. Now, by this time in 2002, Maxim was a global brand. And We were doing big super, Bowl parties, which I was involved in. There was a whole celebrity component. did a TV show and NBC, it was the multimedia big, thing. it was great. And it was a wonderful experience for me and I loved it. So at this moment '07, this is where the pivot starts to, starts to, happen and be, and be thought about, which is, I had gotten married almost 10 years before I had two young children. And because of the work I was doing, I was not seeing them. Very much at all. I was on the road, I had a circuit, I was like a road warrior, and I had basically two weeks out of every month, I was in LA for at least four or five days. Then I go up to San Francisco, I go to Milwaukee for the beer, Detroit for the cars, down to Miami for a party. This was my circuit, you know, I was doing all the time. so all day doing meetings all night deep into the night, partying with clients. I justified all of this as work as what I need to do. I think like a lot of people who get very, deep in their careers, a lot of things get really justified as, oh, this is what I have to do. It's part of the job, And for me, part of that job was, doing some things that were really unhealthy for my, body and my spirit and my soul and ultimately my marriage. In '07 I really pulled back. At I had to pull back and I took a year off. And I wanted to completely reassess what it meant to do meaningful work. I thought there was a lot of meaning in the work I was doing because I had teams, you know, I had a team of 45 people on each of the businesses I was the boss of a subgroup and, the CEO of the company. And I absolutely loved, you know, the teams that we had. And there was a lot of very positive vibes and a lot of learning on all sides. But ultimately I just, I couldn't find enough meaning in it to justify being away from my family that much and, doing what I was doing to my body by partying so much. I was really starting to get pretty unhealthy, and so I had to stop and then sort of reassess. I decided for myself, and I changed a lot of habits, and I did some things, you know, for example, I stopped eating meat for two years. I wanted to try that. And I wanted to take transcendental meditation because I'd read a book by David.

Sterling 15:55

Lynch.

Jamie 15:55

thank you. David Lynch wrote this incredible book you know, about the power and the driver of creativity that you get through transcendental meditation. And I said, man, I wanna try that. So I took the course. So I spent months sort of reassessing healing myself, reconnecting with my wife and kids and getting much more involved, you know, in their lives and taking that time to do that.

Diamond 16:19

Yeah. Sounds like one of these incredible moments in one's journey. The dark night of the soul. Soul the hitting bottom the midlife Life crisis All of these moments That's where we Where the pivot It starts and um, We start looking for more and We've got the courage to change right?

Jamie 16:38

Now, meanwhile, just kind of stepping back, I was not raised by parents who were the business people. They weren't, they were educators. They were, my father was a college professor at Temple University, and my mother was the director of the nursery school in our town and was kind of a celebrity in the town. For good reason because everyone had their kids with her and her staff, and they, were really amazing people. mean they, could have done a lot of things and they dedicated their lives, lives to teaching and molding minds. I mean were great and they played obviously a teacher role, you know, with me. So I, it's not like I was not raised looking at people in business and what they have to do. I, was the first in my family ever to do something like that. So I kind of went back to basics in terms of like assessing who I am as a person. what are my values and what do I want to maybe contribute to the world with my work? I don't want that to sound like, you know, I don't know, too highfalutin or whatever. But that's like, it was really important to me at that moment as I was about to turn 40, I was having a little bit of a crisis like we all do at that age. so with a lot of support, you know with from my, wife both emotional and financial because I had done well for a magazine publisher, but I hadn't done well enough to just go out and make no money. So, you know, my wife and this is something I had to reconcile as well and just be very, you know, candid about it was not, easy initially to live with the idea that my wife was gonna financially support me if I was going to do a new career that didn't make money. And the career I had in mind was to become a teacher. That's really what I, that's really what I wanted to wanted to explore.

Sterling 18:19

the, desire to become a teacher come from your parents how did that seed kind of blossomed in you?

Jamie 18:24

Well, there were, you know, there were a few sort of inputs, right? My background, which I've talked about as a child and, the example that I observed growing up with my parents, right. But my daughter, who's now 23 was, now in school, in grade school. And I, there was some now that I was going to parent-teacher conferences, and I was seeing, you know, homework and I was seeing how school was going. She went all the way through, you know, and graduated, and now has graduated from college and is working and is doing great. But in third and fourth grade she was experiencing some learning issues and she and the teachers weren't really understanding it, and I didn't understand it either really, because I had no background in it. Knew something was off. so like many, parents who watch the children experience some struggle, you know, in school we got outside help. She got a tutor who was way more than a tutor. It was somebody who really what it means to have a language-based learning disability. So she didn't have dyslexia, my daughter, but she had a sort of an issue that is fairly common where she can say the words that she's reading, but because she had some working memory issues and reading is really conjuring image of what you're reading. So playing a movie in your own mind from the words, that's what reading really is, and that's what comprehension is, right? So she was having some difficulties with comprehension and she started meeting twice a week with this woman. And I was allowed to observe one or two of those sessions, particularly at the beginning. And I was absolutely blown away at how this woman this amazing professional understood my daughter as a whole person. That means from her emotional, even physically, and then how it worked in the learning and ability to read, I just found really compelling. I thought, wow, that is really some incredible work. That's being done and some very difficult work. And she was so good at it. So that was a factor that really hit me. I said, this is a person who's incredibly smart, professional, but she's dedicated her life to helping kids learn. And so that had an effect on me. And then I met another guy, a dad from the school who was 10 years older than me he was what I became a career changer. My friend who I met was named Lance. his job for 20 years was in the garment center in New York. He was in the fashion business. He was the brand manager of Glory of Vanderbilt plus size jeans. And this guy was good at his job, but totally miserable. Like he just couldn't even believe that this was his contribution to the world. Right? So not that this bad job, a lot of people got it. It's all worth it, you know, you gotta make a living, but not for him. So I met him at a party randomly of parents from the school, and I had heard, overheard him say, yeah, when I changed careers and now I work at a middle school in downtown Manhattan and I teach humanities. I overheard him say that, and then I kind of cornered him at the party and I said, tell me how you did what you did. It was almost like a sales call, right? I went into like mode of like, I'm gonna do some deep listening here. I wanna learn from this guy. I want to, you know, I want to know everything that he did and how he did it, because I've been thinking about this, but I have no idea how to do it. You know, he's such a mensch because he took me through his story and that he went to Bank Street College and graduated there with a master's in education. And this is how you get certified. And, you know, you can go and visit schools. He just opened up this whole new world to me. so then almost the next day, next few days, I went to Bank Street, met with the admissions director that he was friendly with, met with her, and then that's when it all came together because the, director of admissions at Bank Street College, which is a really you know, really fantastic graduate School of Education in New York City. She said, what do you want to do? And, you know, kind of like an idiot. I said, well, I'm thinking like you know, I'd like to teach like Salinger, you know, to like 11th graders, you know, at a public school, I want to like teach novels. And she goes, Jimmy, those jobs are all taken. Nobody ever leaves those jobs. Those are, that's easy. She said, I said, oh okay. Like, well, what? I don't know. What do you suggest? And she goes, would you consider special education? There are kids all over the city who've been diagnosed with different learning issues we don't have enough teachers to teach them. Would you consider doing this? And Bank Street is up on hundred 16th Street. At the time I was living down on 84th Street. I walked all the way home and that was the moment where it just clicked. I was like, she's just given this to me. Like that's what I'm gonna do.

Diamond 22:49

Oh, I. I love this. So cool. And I love the idea that we all have these master designs and what we’re gonna do and and then the world just shows up and hands you actually the thing you should be doing, so cool!

Jamie 23:03

So I, enrolled and did the application, blah, blah, blah. Did two years there. And it was a phenomenal education, not just to train to be a teacher, but to understand myself as a learner. That's kind of the magic of what they do there. They're, they are also student centric and they you, almost go through this journey of understanding yourself as a learner so that you can be a great teacher, right? So you can understand what kids are really going through as their big thing is the whole child, and which I totally bought into and I, do to this day as a teacher, that we're not just looking to see if a kid can multiply fractions. we're looking at what are sort of all the factors that go into their ability and if it's real and often it, you know, we have real disability and understanding the emotional components that go into that. Some of the environmental factors in the classroom. Are there things that I could be doing differently? To foster a more comfortable or, more conducive learning environment. You know, all these things I've learned over the years. So that launched me in the, new career.

Diamond 24:06

After the pivot, what have you really leaned into? What have you been doing for the past? What, it's 10 ish years now, right?

Jamie 24:12

It's been actually 15,

Diamond 24:13

15, years. Okay. so for 15 years, what have you been doing?

Jamie 24:17

I started in the '08, '09 school year. I had been for seven years in the classroom. For the bulk of that five years. I was the fourth grade teacher at a school in Manhattan that worked with kids with a wide range of disabilities. I always think about a student and a kid really as strength first. Right? Even if they have documentation that's, say, they say they have a disability, or even if the child, let's say, is in a wheelchair or has down syndrome or whatever it is, right? We always think about the strength first, right? In this case, in this school with these classes, as my, as a fourth grade teacher, we had a wide range of, ability and disability within the classroom, and I absolutely love that experience. So I worked at that school for five years, the last eight years to go more specific, I was, basically help start, it's kinda like the magazine business, you know, it's sort of like the kinds of things that I am drawn to are new propositions, right? Blank pieces of paper that says, what if this school looked like this? And there was an extraordinary woman in New York, her name is Alana Ruske Kidd, and she the head of the JCC Nursery school, Jewish Community Center Nursery school, the Upper West side, where my kids went. And I knew her because I was a parent and she had a really high pressure job. Because when kids leave nursery school, I think Maury you're experiencing this now. You know, where are they gonna go to school? Right? And it's like, whoa. And you sleepless nights for parents, et cetera. She managed hundreds of parents and a group of teachers to make all of that happen, right? She's really an amazing person. In 2013, 14, she got an idea to say if, we started a school that is a Jewish day school, but specifically for kids with dyslexia and language-based learning problems, it doesn't exist because the you, it doesn't exist in the world. Because in any classroom, you will, across the country, you will see maybe eight to 10% of any classroom have kids with specified learning problems. It's not the majority, it's a fairly small group. So if you're talking about a Jewish day school for that, it's even smaller. It really could only happen in New York. In New York, we have a vast ocean, right, of very academically rigorous of modern orthodox Jewish day schools. and it's a dual language curriculum and it's very challenging for the children. If you have a dyslexic child in that setting there, it's not gonna be good. And so our school started in '14-'15 24 kids and has gone every year grown, grown. grown. We're first, second we started first, second grade. And then we end at eighth grade and our kids graduate and they usually go back to the schools where they came from. So what we do is we say if your child has dyslexia or language-based learning issues, and you have what's called a neuropsych evaluation, which is a three-day process, the child goes through to assess, full scale IQ, academic ability in all of the subjects, et cetera, et cetera. So that document we need to see, and if the profile is right for our school, which they are, they all are we welcome them into our school. We teach them differently because we have a different reading, writing, and math curricula. We have super small class sizes and we all our teachers are trained in how to work with kids with dyslexia and language-based learning problems. So my role at the school when we first started, she said, Alana said we need a math teacher for the middle school. And I was like, oh, man, really? Because I, like I had already been hired as the fourth grade teacher there when the school started. Now math for me was like, not

Diamond 27:47

I didn't know math. would be involved in this.

Jamie 27:50

Yeah. Math. I know. Ah, I know. In fact, your listeners are just gonna like, drop off now. Oh, this is about math. Like, no, I mean, it's not it's not people's happy place. Right. But the thing is, like, my mentality is, yeah, bring it on because it is such a source of emotional stress for so many students and adults. It's actually a thing in our culture where people brag about being bad at math. We all know, maybe it's ourselves. Maybe the three of us say, you know, I suck at math. Like, I hated it. I didn't get it. I just, whatever. And then there are some few that love it and they get it, and that's fine. I don't work with those students. I work with students that, for whom math is not only a difficult subject, but actually an existential threat.

Diamond 28:35

Yeah. I have been around a lot of people now. Most of whom have dyslexia. It is just so. So. Difficult and painful, and I feel. This same level. level of frustration and kind of terror when these kind of things come up, it’s it’s really it’s really difficult.

Jamie 28:56

I cannot overstate this. It is such a source of anxiety for my students that I actually, I'm not, I consider myself to be not just a content teacher, but actually, I mean, there's a, there's sort of a a psychology piece to, to the work that I do with kids. So, for example, when my kids come into the room, They're very agitated about, this is math class. So one thing that I do, and I've learned over the years, and I've learned from many, amazing people who do this by through observation and professional development and all kinds of things, and just failure for the most part. You know, really just failure and just trying to do it better. The next day when the kids walk in, I have a sheet on their desk with maybe one or two problems, three problems that they absolutely can do, and I know they can do it and there's not gonna be any and they grab the pencil and they do it, and then I take the paper and I say, amazing. And then I give them yesterday's papers, which I had gone through and I've scrawled all over them. Amazing job. Way to go, you know, you got this, a big component of what I'm doing in teaching in this setting. Is to continuously reinforce self-esteem and try to build it. You know, that's just a big part because then it gets the brain ready to take on a challenge that is difficult or annoying.

Diamond 30:15

And, that one's like, give people victories. Like

Jamie 30:18

Yeah.

Diamond 30:18

all need some victories. You're

Jamie 30:20

Yeah,

Diamond 30:20

anxiety of, oh no, this is math. I'm terrible at math. And then, start people with, a victory, with a smile positive reinforcement is just the way you gotta start.

Jamie 30:32

It is. And the thing is, now this mentality runs completely counter to like historical American culture, right? Where you gotta suffer, you have to fail to be successful, right? They always say in the tech business you, interview for a job in so many industries, if you didn't fail, they won't even hire you. Right. There's like a fetish around failure. I'm just telling you with children in the classroom, that is not applicable whatsoever in my experience. I'm not saying you can never fail, I'm saying you need to build strength before that challenge comes. And then when the challenge creates pushback or failure, then they can fall back in their mind and say, you know what? I did that. Now I can do this. So it's a management, right? It's not about no fail ever. I just wanna really make that clear because that's just, that would be just manby pamby, right? And the kids could smell it by the way, right away. They can smell BS on you the second they walk in the room. Is this a straight shooter? Is this somebody who really wants to understand me? You know, when we say kids are really smart, that's what it means. Or the line kids teach us everything. Is widely misunderstood, The kids don't teach me anything about math. What they teach me is how to teach it better to them because of the reaction I get. You know? In that way it's like almost any teaching is almost like any other performance art, you can tell from your audience how it's going.

Diamond 32:01

If I were to ask you on the topic of, mastery, thinking about your career, thinking about your life, the story you just told us, I mean, how would you define your mastery today?

Jamie 32:10

if I had to say the one thing, that I have mastery over I really do think it's, it's teaching math to my students, and I would say that in a general sense, but the way that happens ironically is through a tremendous amount of failure. So I teach, for example, I teach 45 minute classes. The amount of prep that I do to teach six kids in one room for 45 minutes is sometimes 40 minutes. That's the amount of prep that I will do because I need to individualize it. I'm looking at their work very carefully. I'm looking at the, things that they're getting and I'm I'm, also seeing some of the stuff that they're not getting, and I have sometimes I have to completely redo a lesson plan for the day. There's no like, okay, today we're on page 23. Open your books. It's not like that at all.

Diamond 32:52

It's really interesting about failure. You just, you just went on about how failure is the villain for the student when it comes to math. But then you said a big part of you gaining your mastery and teaching them math is in your own trial and error, in your own failing?

Jamie 33:08

Yes.

Diamond 33:08

That, that is wild. You just were talking about how you need to protect them from their failures and give them victories. But the way you've gotten good is in failing.

Jamie 33:17

Yes. No, but Craig and it's such a great, it's, I mean, I really, I appreciate you kind of surfacing that because it's sort of obvious, but I'm an adult. I work with 12 year olds. I've been through enough now to know that failure is good, but when you're 12 and you are expected to do things that are, let's face it, really unnatural for 11 and 12 year olds to sit for 45 minutes, which I don't ever, I, my, I do lessons where we get up, we do teamwork. For example, to teach subtracting decimals. I do a store. cause subtracting decimals is hard. You know, you got like dimes and pennies, you got the dot sometimes they don't really know where the dot goes. And then you got the ones and the tens. And I set up like a Barnes and Noble table. And on post-it notes, I give them all weird prices. This is one of my best activities. I've done it with the teachers. I've taught this to many, teachers. I, set up probably 15 books, lay 'em all out, put all the desks together to make one big table, lay the books out on post-it notes, I'll write weird prices. A dollar 23 1599 $7 and 1 cents. Right Now, here's the game. All the books together, I don't even know what they add up to, but It's a lot. So what I do is I give them $20, And I say, this is a game guys. Whoever buys five books and gets the closest to zero without going under. Wins a dollar. Okay, you got that. So they have to actually go do all the subtractions to figure out how many, you know, how many, which of the five books they gotta do. They're kind of talking, they're competing, they're doing what they, they completely forget they're at school. They're playing this crazy game that's totally doable for them to do, but so engaging it plays on the competitive spirit and, it's really amazing. So a kid will come, wait, I'm under, I'm negative 1 cent. I'm like, you gotta do it again. So that's when failure is fun, because that's the kind of failure we're looking for, which is to say, oh, darn it, you know I gotta do this again. That's a class. I don't even speak for 45 minutes.

Sterling 35:21

One thing I'm hearing you say though, too, Jamie, is in terms of the failure stuff, to go back a little bit, is it, also sounded like you were setting up a good structure to be able to handle the failure so,

Jamie 35:31

That's better way to put it.

Sterling 35:33

So, so there's a, foundation there you're creating an environment where you and a student are just the way failure, you know, the way it hits us is maybe it's a softer landing, and just hearing you talk through sort of the process of, let me give you self-esteem first. Right? Because if you have failure without self-esteem, man, that's just more low self-esteem. Like you're, just in a crap cycle,

Jamie 35:54

Completely. And the thing is, one context I'll put on this guys too is that my school is not the first school that our kids go to. In other words our kids that we have at my school they've, had to leave their previous schools.

Sterling 36:06

Right,

Jamie 36:07

They, their siblings stay because they're doing fine academically. This one kid. And can you imagine? I mean I, feel it and I, live it with them, Even if they don't know how much I do, feel it with them. Of the burden that these children feel they're putting on their own family. I'm the one that had to be taken out of my school. I'm the one who failed. I'm, and then they walk into my classroom and they go, what's going on here? I'm sure it's gonna be more failure. that's, the context for what I said before. you said it so well. Maury like setting up a situation to build a foundation so that we can then experience and persevere through challenges. Yeah, absolutely. But there's a lot of work that needs to be done, you in that area. And it's not all psychology. A lot of it's math working with numbers, but You gotta do it in such a way that the kids can get their hands on things. I'm a big advocate for materials materiality. The first week of my class, we actually don't pick up a pencil really, or do much with pencil and paper. I introduce fractions, for example, with balls of clay that we make and smush onto a sheet that has one hole. We just make one hole and then I give them a knife and I go cut it in half.

Sterling 37:23

All right.

Jamie 37:23

now, most of them, they cut it right through the middle one half. It's great. Sometimes they'll get a kid he'll cut at the bottom and say, oh, that's great learning, because that student actually doesn't, they don't actually know what the word half means really. So there's a lot of talk, there's a lot of manipulation of materials, everything that we can do to build towards number system, which is really a set of abstractions. You know, what is inherent in the squiggle of three that says three? Nothing.

Sterling 37:51

Right.

Jamie 37:52

We don't realize how much the symbolic system of math. Is really abstract and either people get it in our education system now in the United States, my belief we are we're, playing. It's, just a big gamble. It, there are kids that get it. Kids don't get it.

Sterling 38:07

Well That

Jamie 38:08

okay.

Sterling 38:08

yeah. And that leads me to sort of a question we'd like to ask, which is can anyone have mastery? And maybe more specifically, do you have an attitude with these kids? you go into it thinking that all of them are going to succeed?

Jamie 38:21

Yeah, No, it's I'm really glad you asked that. I, guard against thoughts like that. Sometimes you'll hear people in education say things like, all children can succeed. But that's a platitude I don't really traffic in. Like, I don't really, I don't even think like that. What, I think is, and I'll tell you what I say to the kids. I'm, sort of an honest broker and it kind of surprises them. By the way, I'm the only teacher they got with a white beard who's like an old guy. My colleagues are half my age. For the most part, they're, my colleagues are incredibly talented. Well-meaning usually women in late twenties or early thirties, they, are like the engine that makes the whole thing go. And it's really beautiful. I'm a bit of an anomaly, right? I'm older, I'm a career changer. I did this weird business thing before blah, blah, blah. So I think it gives me a bit of a license to just be honest with 'em. And there are two things that I say, and sometimes it works. And sometimes they're like, what? Every day say. Why do I have to do this? Why do we have math, Why do I have to even learn algebra? How to simplify an algebra, algebraic expression. It's the most stupid thing. Now, first of all I, actually love when they say that because that indicates to me comfort, right? Like they are, they feel free to kind of speak their mind, In many classrooms, children are not, don't feel safe enough to speak their mind. So I'm, I'm honored that they actually say crap like that, right? So my answer is sometimes twofold, depending on the age of the student. When I've had older students, I'll say, what I'm interested in is your future. I'm very interested in the present, but I'm really interested in preparing you for the future. And I gotta tell you guys, you gotta go to high school and you're gonna go to college, okay? And to get to that place, these are some skills that you need to know, and I'm trying to make it accessible for you. But let's dig in because it's just our future together. You know, that I say sometimes and it's rational and they appreciate the straight talk. And then sometimes I just have to kind of because it, I get hit with it every day. Sometimes I just have to double down and make a more engaging lesson that just becomes a exhaust fumes for them. And they totally even forget that, that they said it in the first place. those are my two approaches, kind of selective, ignoring, and then straight talk from the old man, you know?

Diamond 40:33

So Hoops. are gonna be people listening to this right now. Now there's gonna be two obvious categories here. One are gonna be parents of children with a disability. By the way, I was one, and I know Nicole is open about her own disability, and, this might be a two-parter. One is. For those of us that are parents that might have a kid and you're wondering maybe they have a disability or maybe, you know, that they have one. One might be from a, master that works with children with disabilities. the one takeaway you, you'd like them to think about? So two is mastery in general. Mastery in general mastery for, anybody? What do you know from doing your work with these children that all of us can apply to our own lives, right? Even if we're not in the world of education.

Jamie 41:17

All right, so I'll address the first one first. Which is if someone is listening and they think that their child, and they know that their child is having difficulty in the classroom, in their current school, right. So every situation is different, and it's really important to say that at the outset. There are many, many variables that might go into a child experiencing difficulty in the classroom. I think the first. Is, and I don't want this to sound like banal, but when we experience our children struggling, it creates something in us that becomes very irrational, very quickly. It's really agitating because it's so deeply personal When you're a parent and every parent knows this, like you can't, you cannot be prepared really to be a parent because when that child comes out and grows up, they're so much like you Of course. And you're like, so you can't help but take their difficulties personally. Right?? So I would say first and foremost, take a deep breath, There are people that will surround your child who do care, okay? They might not be telling you what you want to hear, But I will share, and I I don't like to depend on things like this. There's way too many educators that say the research shows, but I will say that it's pretty conclusive right now for academic interventions with children. In reading in particular, first or second grade is actually pretty late. So don't ignore what you know, you see, okay? if you are, seeing that your child, and you know, because you probably read with your child in bed, I'm not saying make 'em read. you know, Listen to the teacher, And by the way, it's development is different for every kid. So I wanna say this is really important, Is that not everyone's gonna be, the academic intensity that's happening across this country in kindergarten and first grade, I think is insane. It's absolutely bonkers. And I wish against all things that it would just stop, We just are so hyper competitive. The absolutely child needs to be a genius by the time he's six. I mean, it's crazy. So depend on the developmental natural developmental sort of stages. Trust your kid. You know, on some level. So what I'm saying are different things all at once. Like anything complicated is full of contradictions, you have to look early to see if there are reading problems, particularly in first and second grade, You have to be aware, talk to your teachers carefully, stay calm, but at the same time have perspective know that your child is, well cared for. The, biggest criteria actually for academic success and actually career success later in life is the number of books in the house. That's, a huge, that's it,

Sterling 43:54

it's, it's gonna, it's

Jamie 43:55

it's, not the teacher,

Sterling 43:56

very happy to know that she's,

Jamie 43:58

it's not the school. If you think about it, children are, you know, they watch carefully from the absolute split second they can and who are, they watching most of the time in the early years? Us, the parents. So we have more, a lot more influence than we think. so, I don't know. I hope that's helpful.

Diamond 44:14

That was brilliant. so now tell me in a general sense on the topic of being a guy who has. Had pretty specific focus on an area of mastery in your life, right? Imagine somebody listening right now to learn violin, is trying to learn French, wants to grow a garden. who knows what somebody's interested in. what have you learned about gaining mastery when you think back

Jamie 44:39

Yeah. Yeah. I wanna I've been thinking about this quite a bit because I listened to your show and I, want to try to maybe say something, you know, beyond like, you know, be okay with failure, you know, that kind, I mean, of course. Yes. Yes. I would say the thing that has helped me, the thing that I've always been good at through tons of failure, right? Tons, right. But one thing I have never failed at is collecting mentors. I mean, I just saw wherever I was at, somebody older than me, more experienced than me. doing something that I wanted to do, and I had no, I was never shy about grabbing them and saying, can you teach me please? And by the way, every single one of them said yes. And when so far like it to help me, even though there was nothing in it for them really. But I'm telling you, mentor collection is like the most important thing. It's gotten me, it's gotten me everywhere. And I'm not talking about going from ad director to group, publisher to group this to CEO. That's part of it. It's known in the business world that you do that. I'm talking about something really different. I'm talking about when you overhear somebody, you can't be shy. When you overhear somebody at a party talking about something like really cool that's been on your mind for like six months and they're talking to somebody else, I didn't care if maybe I was a little bit rude and budding into the conversation and cornering him for two hours. I just, and that's me. Like, only learn from people, you know, like I love reading books and I read them voraciously, but it's really for entertainment. You know? My learning has come from more experienced, frankly, more accomplished and smarter people who have shared their, wisdom with me and and have taken it and cherished it and, you know, run with it.

Diamond 46:34

You're

Sterling 46:34

What

Diamond 46:35

for the wire break days I, ex I feel that the title of mentor is a little big for me, but I'm breathing into it. I want you to know that.

Sterling 46:46

as Mentor. I wanted to reflect something back to you, Jamie, and, but then also reject it if it doesn't feel right. 'cause, I think this may be either through curiosity or my belief and I'm not sure which one it is. But what I feel like I heard in your story too was, 'cause this excites me, and I think this is a point of the podcast for me, is being able to access, take one thing and then have it translate into that other thing. Not, what I think I heard in your story from advertising how to make people excited. Like salesmanship, right? Is about how, to get people interested in a thing to give them in, sales it's about cash, right? Or, purchasing or numbers. But you took that and you gave that to these kids too, because what I'm hearing in that is an here's the challenge. Here's the, Here's the, these are the group of kids I'm working with, but how do I get them to be excited about this thing? How, how do I, How do I get them interested and curious? That is not the obvious path. And that the people you were listening to, the ones you were attracted to, were like, okay, that's a bad sales pitch. Yeah, that's a good sales pitch. 'cause that, that, that makes me want to be a part of that. And I, don't know if that feels true to you, but I, that was something I heard and you took it from this one medium and this one marketplace and you Absolutely. And I just love how it connected then with your parents as well. I. So it kind of brought your root history into it, and you went and did this one thing in life and it was these feelings and your family and who you were and your health. But then you took that thing that you were working with for a long time and gave it in a different presentation. Does that feel

Jamie 48:21

Boy, I mean you just said it better than I do. I mean, I actually, you've hit on. The exact thing that I say to people. you're, at the dinner party and some people you don't know and they go, you know, like, what's your story? What do you do? You know, and I, so I sometimes I will say exactly what you just said, but a little, maybe, just a little, differently. I said, look, for 18 years in the magazine business, I basically walked into rooms of disinterested, hungover, hostile, bored,

Sterling 48:52

right.

Jamie 48:53

irritated people, right? I had to grab them with a level of performance art that was compelling and content that met their needs. So how is that different from what I do at my school? It's exactly the same.

Sterling 49:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie 49:10

mean, I mean, you know, I don't know if they're hungover. I hope they're not. But it's basically the same mentality as like, what is it? What? You know, and you gotta take that what, and you gotta take them and, you know, bring them now. And it's so similar in so many ways and you just completely nailed it. So I, really appreciate that.

Sterling 49:29

Cool. I was one of those kids who all, who had the mantra of, I hate math. Which, I loved how you talked about that too. Like, that is just something we say. It's like a, script. And I see, I really, in life been paying attention a lot to like, oh my God, I'm in a script. I'm in a societal script. I am saying the thing I say at this age, at this point, this gender, this race, like whatever, like, it's falling into those traps. And thank you because it's, it's, so much lately, my life has been about sort of math and physics. Like I see it everywhere now in a way that, that's been fun. And anyways,

Jamie 50:01

Wow.

Sterling 50:02

get personal about it. Um.

Jamie 50:04

Nice.

Sterling 50:05

Yeah, no, it's cool. Of sort of every action has an equal and opposite, especially in relationship. You know, if you push, it's gonna come back. If you're If I'm, resistant with my son, I get resistance. It's like if I'm hard, there's, he just ricochets right off of me. You know? If

Jamie 50:20

absolutely. that in the child development game, it's called escalation. this past school year. One of my favorites of all time, and she would come in and from, from lunch, from a very very difficult this, this class I taught right after they were at lunch. And lunch for her was actually the greatest terror because she wanted so badly to make friends and she kind of had one of those personalities that was just very difficult for other kids that were 12 to really get with, and I could see this and it, you know, so she would come in. Smoke coming out of her ears. So irritated, so annoyed. And I, would take her aside each time and at the beginning, and I'd say, I want you to breathe with me a little bit, and I want you to know that, like, let's work to do what we can to try to sort of take a deep breath and calm down. Let's lower our shoulders because you're in a different environment now. And like you're totally seen, you know, like, we're gonna work through this together. And sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. There's no magic, there's nothing magic, you know? But I just know like she, she did calm down and by the, and she was also experiencing a lot of difficulty with the subject of math, just specifically with numbers and how they work in operations and with fractions and what a fraction even was, and et cetera, et cetera. But her parents told me, I mean, this is, this was a really wonderful moment. And we have really fantastic parents because when they, when the students come to our school, most of our parents, if not all really openly recognize that their children are seen for the first time. And appreciated. And that's the first step towards, you know, making progress. But they, the father said to me at the conference at the end of the year, he said, our daughter came home every night the last two years before entering your school, and would scream and cry and tear up her math homework and refuse to do anything. Our house was turned upside down by the school experience and at Shee. He goes, I don't, he said, Jamie, I don't know what you're doing, but that has not happened once. And she's making progress. She's doing the work. Like, what do you do? I go, well, you know, I said, it's all in her. It's all in her, We just have to have a little faith and, a lot of patience. And patience is not like my thing. This is the thing. Like I'm, you know, like if you remember the story from the media business, it, I wasn't the guy that sat there and you know, took it very well. You know, I didn't take disappointment. I didn't like being managed. I didn't like being told what to do. Craig remembers so like, you know.

Diamond 52:52

New York I mean,

Jamie 52:53

Oh

Diamond 52:53

Bing bad. Boom.

Jamie 52:54

my, my gingham shirts and my Paul Stewart suits, and I was really, I was really, uh, I was the smartest guy in the room, right. So like, you know

Diamond 53:03

except

Jamie 53:03

insufferable, I'm sure at points except for Craigy. So it was, I was really, impatient if, management was an idiot, which of course they all were, you know, I'm outta here, you

Diamond 53:14

Uhhuh

Jamie 53:14

not saying I'm like some patient guy. Like, I had to do tremendous amounts of work to remake my my whole brain to, key into calming myself. It was very hard, really hard.

Diamond 53:27

hoops.

Jamie 53:28

still, you know, not easy.

Diamond 53:30

So. I think I'm hearing some qualities of mastery that we're hearing from your story. one thing I've heard is be ready to fail, like the, like in you, in what you're doing. Part of it is trial and error. We hear this a lot., I just heard one called patience, right? would you say that's a, that's a, characteristic of mastery for you to be patient?

Jamie 53:49

I can only speak for myself because it doesn't come to me naturally.

Diamond 53:52

Yeah,

Jamie 53:53

It's, that had to be a learned skill. I don't know if most people have to learn how to kind of just wait and keep your mouth shut. You know? Like a lot of people do that. They do that well. Yeah. I don't know. You know what

Diamond 54:04

yeah. Then I heard

Jamie 54:06

I didn't

Diamond 54:07

mentorship having great mentors, right?

Jamie 54:11

cultivating them.

Diamond 54:12

cultivating mentors.

Jamie 54:13

making them be your, yeah.

Diamond 54:15

Yeah.

Jamie 54:16

pretty aggressive,

Diamond 54:17

Yeah.

Jamie 54:17

paid off, you know, and they love it

Diamond 54:20

so so hoops man. I'm sure everybody that'll listen to this will understand why I love you so much. I mean, you are, I mean the story of the pivot is, is hilarious and I by the way, this is a really nice thing for us to do together. 'cause I was there during Jamie one oh, during the gingham years of you know, when we were doing this thing and then, you know, to, I always feel close to you at heart but to just realize the past 15 years and just like hear the master frankly, that you've become at, teaching math to children with disabilities, had a child with a disability. The thought that there are people out there like you makes us all happy. I'm sure Maury as a parent of a young child to know there are humans. there waiting for them in the classroom that exist like you fricking incredible. you and I, you have a lot of range, my friend. I mean, we laugh about the silly stuff. You go deep and, like, the fact that you're making a difference like this is you could really feel it. I can feel it on the other side. And I feel all your passion coming, through here. And, you know, as we come to the close, you know, more, I'd love to hear your, kind of parting shot to Jamie. But Jamie, man I love you pieces. I hope we get to see each other, you know, as much as we can during the journey of our lives. But thanks so much just for being you and being a great friend. And, you know I just think the world of you.

Jamie 55:53

Oh man, I love that. Thank you so much.

Sterling 55:55

Yeah I, I concur and I just met you. I mean some of the things I heard you early on in your story, you talked about deep listening and that, just adding that word before listening to make it deep listening, cause that felt consistent again throughout the whole story. Like, you can only help these kids if you can really hear underneath. The sort of noise of the frustration that's on the surface, you know and, same thing I imagine in the ad business, like, what's the heartbeat again? You know, like there's, you gotta hear what they're really asking, what they really want, and then how do you tap into that? But there was something about deep listening that I feel like would be a component of someone who's really trying to have a better solution, an accurate solution. I thought that piece of it, of, you know, a lot of this came from listening to your own daughter too, that personal piece of it where allowing our own lives to really, this seems so stupid to say, but allowing your own problems to be the invitations to something bigger and better. Like really, you know, that the thing in your life that's right in front of you and that you care so much about, Shift the mind, you said, and then, I mean, I want Craig covered a lot. Books. Books. Books and books. And meditation. Meditation was a part of that, a part of that shift. So maybe we've covered it, but if we had to ask you what you think are like three components of mastery, what would you say?

Jamie 57:13

I'm pulling from what you guys said. I mean, I, you know, because your synopsis of our discussion has been is so on point. I mean, I, first of all, perseverance in all its forms. I think also keeping an eye on where you want to be while you're zigzagging all over the place is, really important. I think that applies to all endeavors that require mastery, I'll say specifically in teaching I know, and it never fails the amount that I prepare for each minute of teaching the ratio. In other words, the most prep, it goes great. The more, the deeper I go on the preparation, then the thing sings. In that way it's like a lot of, and I, Maria, I'm assuming that you know, that you identify with this as an actor. Like I think about, you know the, there's a component of acting to what we do. Right, because it's not just reciting lines. It's about truly feeling and drawing upon your experience to share with people so that they connect with it. And when that happens, any content can be taught and learned,

Sterling 58:21

Mm-Hmm.

Jamie 58:22

then the kids become Masters because they trust you. you are pulling from all these resources and background and kinds of things that you lived in your life and you're presenting it to them in a way that makes sense to them. So I think it's a sort of a deep listening, but also deep intuitiveness about About the people you're working with.

Sterling 58:45

Yeah. Awesome.

Diamond 58:46

Mr. Hooper, you are a gem, my friend. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on Everyday Masters, and thank you for all the work that you're doing with the kids out there. We, will talk soon. I love you very much. Thanks so much for being here.

Jamie 59:04

All right.

Sterling 59:06

Such a pleasure. Thanks, Jamie.

59:09

And now, it's time for the Wrapper Upper.

Diamond 59:13

Pretty cool dude. Huh?

Sterling 59:14

So cool. So cool. what a great human I mean, amazing story obvious for the pivots to go from this sort of outward, this direction of advertising and money and partying and all that goes with that world and, and not being with your family and sort of that lifestyle to such a shift in terms of what he's doing now. And I just love, those stories in general, but just a wonderful guy. And what he's doing now. And like you said, that there's somebody out there. You guys both hit his, like a new-ish parent with a three and a half year old, knowing that there are people out there who are trying to problem solve in that way. I, wrote down, I made a note listening to him, which was my new version maybe of if I were to define mastery today. Elegant problem solving because it's it's more than just the problem solving. It's, it, there's this elevated way of doing it that takes it to a new level. That, I guess one thing that really came up, you know, in listening to him, we didn't use that word, but it's compassion too. You know, it's really it through the patience and the meditation and the deep listening, they didn't use that word, but it's compassion to how we handle sense of compassion. His, level of thought towards what? Pointing at them saying You're a problem. And these little beings and what they're just the, impact of that, and we all know as adults, kind of how much work many of us are doing to kind of undo that kind of stuff, to unlearn these horrible stories. We start telling ourselves, you know, these habits we fall into to cope with things that are hard for us. So the fact he's just got this sense of like, how amazing it is for those kids to walk into that classroom and be in a space where, guess is whether it's here or wherever, something good is gonna happen, even if they don't fix the math problem they're gonna leave with. But that guy had something that made me feel like Maybe it is never math, but it's something else that they have that they attach to, that they solve a problem somewhere else. Anyways he was just great.

Diamond 1:01:15

Yeah. And Before I jump into my Wrapper-Upper, like you he's a guy like you. I remember meeting him. He's just like, he has that, you know he's, got, what I want. You know what I mean? He always did. He always did. He has, this smile, he has this intellect. He has this attraction, this charisma, this heart, you know, this, like, he's got a silliness and a depth. he's a killer guy. He's a killer guy, and, like you said, I mean, His pivot is, fascinating. Just 'cause I think everyone got that. But I mean, the guy was a rockstar. It, was a rockstar in the first part of his life. And to want more, go after more and be doing what he's doing. I mean this is a guy that could even be running big companies that's spending his time preparing how to be clever and creative, to activate a child

Sterling 1:02:13

Mm-Hmm.

Diamond 1:02:14

on something they don't wanna do that

Sterling 1:02:16

Yeah.

Diamond 1:02:17

You And you think,

Sterling 1:02:18

yep yep,

Diamond 1:02:19

that's an interesting guy.

Sterling 1:02:22

yep.

Diamond 1:02:23

In terms of my actual wrap up are the things I wrote down. I, love this. He said don't ignore what you know, you see. I was like, shit. That's, a big, that's a big line because I, heard that being like It's hard to face reality sometimes. It's hard to face the truth in myself, in, in the world around me. Don't ignore what, you know, you see is like, get out of denial, get out of the fantasy take some action. You know? So I, I, I thought that was a big line.

Sterling 1:02:54

well, if I may jump on that too. 'cause he, kind of separated them. He was like, trust your kid, but also don't ignore what you see. I guess what I heard in both of those was trust, like, trust your kid and trust yourself.

Diamond 1:03:05

And then I liked, I liked, this one where he said like, it seemed like the door, doorway. He says, I see every child. And I was thinking, this is universal. Is start with a strength, start with a start, with a strength.

Sterling 1:03:16

Yep.

Diamond 1:03:17

he also started with a victory. And you think about, all the, things we try to do. You start with a strength. Start with a victory,

Sterling 1:03:25

well I, I'm, I'm I'm ponying on everything you're saying but I think in a way that

Diamond 1:03:30

Stop stealing my shit. Go.

Sterling 1:03:32

I'm not stealing it. I'm Well, I do, I steal it and then I make it better, but, well, no, but I feel like that's, that helped articulate to me too, like part of what I would hope to do with the podcast is for anybody who's listening, like find Yeah, it's been, find your strengths. Like there's all this pressure put on success and what it's gotta look like, but it may, at the cost of you may already have those things build off that. So Yeah. I really, that too.

Diamond 1:03:56

And, by the way how, fricking funny was it when he, draws the correlation between the, the hungover pe people in the ad world, the disinterested, hungover people that don't want to hear what he has to say and the kids he walks into about the same That's, a very, that's a very funny parallel that he draws there. That's hilarious.

Sterling 1:04:16

yep.

Diamond 1:04:17

Alrightyy, dude. Well, I love you. Great episode with Jamie Hooper, who,

Sterling 1:04:23

everybody.

Diamond 1:04:23

Jamie Hooper, a master at teaching math to

Sterling 1:04:27

Yep.

Diamond 1:04:27

children with Disabilities. Incredible dude. And you're an incredible dude. And we will see you next time on every day.

Sterling 1:04:34

Masters.