That's Good Parenting: Expert Tips to Reduce Parenting Stress

How to Parent as a Servant Leader with Jonathan Fanning, EP 133

• Dori Durbin • Season 3 • Episode 133

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Parenting today is anything but simple. Most of us end the day wondering, Did I make the right decisions? Am I leading my kids well?

In this episode of That’s Good Parenting, Dori Durbin sits down with author, speaker, and leadership coach, Jonathan Fanning to explore how servant leadership can become one of the most powerful mindsets inside our homes.

Jonathan shares a pivotal moment from his college basketball days that sparked a lifelong question: Why do we give certain people permission to shape us—and how do we become that kind of positive influence for our kids? From there, he breaks servant leadership into practical, parent-friendly ideas that you can actually use when your energy is low, your patience is thin, and your kids are being kids.

In this conversation, we talk about:

  • What servant leadership really looks like in parenting
  • Why kids translate LOVE as TIME
  • A simple weekly “scoreboard” practice 
  • How to “win a moment”
  • Why we forget what matters most
  • The powerful idea of “the last time”

Jonathan also shares two free resources for parents, including a reality-check poem/video and an audio download of his book.

Connect with Jonathan Fanning:

Connect with Dori

Website & children’s book coaching: https://www.doridurbin.com

Want to help shape future children’s books created by experts like Becky? Join the That’s Good Parenting Club to vote on concepts, give feedback, and get early access to new releases:
https://club.thatsgoodparenting.com/club

Intro for TDP (version 2)

Welcome to, that's Good Parenting, the podcast that searches for simple steps to reduce your parenting stress. I'm your host, children's book illustrator, coach, and podcaster, Dori Durbin and beyond, sharing expert advice here. I also help family focused experts, kid size their big ideas into children's books so families can grow together through stories.

So let's get to it. Parenting today is anything but simple. Most of us end our day wondering, did I make the right decisions? Am I leading my kids well? Well, today we're exploring how specifically servant leadership is used and can become one of the most powerful mindsets inside our homes. My guest has been studying servant leadership, and he has returned to talk to us about it.

Today, Jonathan Fanning is an author, speaker, and leadership coach, and I'll let him tell you more. So welcome, Jonathan. We have very similar vibes, the two of us as far as like how we can help parents. And I really would love for you to talk a little bit about, you know, yourself, but [00:01:00] also where you fell into servant leadership and why it's been interesting for you.

Sure, absolutely. So two, two quick stories that go into that. I was, um, 18 years old playing college basketball. And, uh, we were, I was, it was a junior college. It wasn't like Duke or, or North Carolina, but we were still, we were ranked number three in the country for junior colleges. So we were good. It was like a lot of D one players that didn't have, uh, you know, the, the grades for D one or whatever.

And, uh, one, one day the coach walks by me, we're in practice, and I remember exactly where I was. And he says, fanning, when are you gonna step up and lead this team? He was behind me and I'm working on a footwork drill, and I, I remember just stopping and looking at him and he just locked eyes with me for, I don't know, and then walked away.

And I remember thinking like, does he mean score more? Does he mean like, does he mean I need to be the captain of the team? Does he mean, you know, what does he mean? And you know, honestly, my first thought was, that's your job. And I'm already by example. I think I'm doing okay. But it got me started on this, this path of we give certain people [00:02:00] permission to have a deep and profound influence in our lives.

And why, why do we do that? And some of those people are an aunts and uncle, a parent. Some of those people are a coach or a teacher. Some of those people are a friend or a coworker or a person we work for. And I started really trying to figure that out. Why? And who are these people? And can you actually get better at that?

Be because my coach wasn't saying, I need you to have the, the captain, you know, thing on your uniform. He was saying, I need you to influence the people on your team in a way that you're not. And oh, tough one, because we, we didn't, we didn't, um, perform that year the way we could have. And a big part of it was because we needed more positive influence, you know, so servant leaders, and you could call it a lot of things, you could call it kind of this deep authenticity.

They do a handful of things that, um, they, they, they, they love us, but they don't let us stay where we are. You know, they meet us where we are, but they don't let us stay there. They, they see us well enough to see what we need, [00:03:00] which sometimes is encouragement and sometimes it's. Responsibility. You know, sometimes I need to fall flat on my face and, and, and sometimes I need someone to come over and say, are you all right?

And sometimes I need no one to come over and me to have to get up because I'm capable of it and it's time to get up. You know? And it's, there's a lot of things involved in this and, and I would say from a parenting perspective, but from a leadership perspective, same thing. There's kind of three big components to, to servant leadership.

One is you, you really deeply care. You could say love. You decide to want what's best for the people in your world, your kids. You know, when my oldest daughter, when she turned. About, I think 13. It was, it was a challenge. You know, I, I don't know if you can relate Dory, but, and, you know, and I sat there and I'm going to have any influence in her life at all, I have to, and then I have to communicate, and then she has to know, and then I have to help her get better at this thing called love, like choosing to want what's best [00:04:00] for her.

And I started this little rhythm of, of telling her, no matter what, three words, no matter what, like, Hey, Ella, love you no matter what, no matter what. And like, she didn't say it back, you know? And, and it was, it's very easy in that moment to, to be like, all right, I'm not, forget it. I'm not saying that to you, you know?

But if I don't have that, and then try to communicate that. There's, there's a really old expression that says you can't give what you don't have. You know, and I, I need to have that and remind myself of that, you know, because as a parent, if your kids aren't challenging you. Testing you, um, just wait. The trains are coming.

I guess no parent goes without that, do they? No, I, not that I know of. Not that I know of. So, yeah, servant leadership is a, i, i, a good way to put it. We've been interviewing hundreds of people that are people around them, call them deeply authentic servant leaders. And what we hear over and over and over again is that it's more about who you are than necessarily what you do.

You know, people can tell you want what's best for them. You know, like, Dory, I'll give you an [00:05:00] example. Like, I, I can practice the skills of, of listening, but wanting to be with that person is a, is a deeper thing. And I can have the skill like, oh, smile. Nod eye contact, right? All these ask really good questions, but if I really want to be with that person, they can usually tell.

And if I don't, you know, if I don't value them, they can tell. And that's the deeper side. And, and that's what, and it's why this idea of kind of that deeply authentic leaders is, is it's harder to try to teach. It's harder to try to do. Um, but it's what I think I'm challenged to try to be as a parent, as a dad.

So it's really being authentic in the moment, but also be having the awareness of what that other person needs. Mm, yeah. Mm-hmm. And so like if you're a parent who is parenting, you might, okay, you've gotta. Feed the kids, get 'em to bed, make sure they're healthy, all those things, those basic things. But this is like, oh, I feel what you're experiencing right now and I know that you need these other things instead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:06:00] yeah. I would say there, there's three big things. One is the love, two is wisdom, or, or which, which you could say that's part of wisdom is knowing that person, but not just knowing them. Knowing them today and knowing their potential, you know? And then, and then knowing at least to some degree what they really need right now.

What's the next, you know, one of the dads that we interviewed recently, he said, he said, Jonathan, once a week I stop for a few minutes, and this goes to that. You can't get what you don't have. He said, I stop and I think for a few minutes, how am I doing as a dad this week? It's like, you know, if you put it under love, like how'd I do with thinking about what's best for my kids?

Loving the reality of who they are, but also loving their potential. How'd I do with that? How'd I do with communicating that to them this week? You know? And it doesn't mean saying the words quite often. People like kids translate law of LOVE, four letters into four other letters, TIME, you know, and it's like, did I just sit with my kid in the car?

We were talking about skiing earlier. Did I sit with them in the chairlift and just sit with them? You know, did I, did I hear them? You know, did I hear them when they [00:07:00] weren't talking? Whew. You know, and this is what this one CE O's also got. Two young kids said, he said, I once a week, few minutes. He's like, I put it in the calendar every Friday, 10 minutes.

You know, think about how'd you do as a parent this week? And under love, that's one thing, but under wisdom, you know, really knowing them, really thinking about what's the most important thing. You know, I'm a dad. As a dad, I have, I have two daughters. I could ask myself once a week, right? For take a minute and say, what does my, my 15-year-old need most from me over the next seven days?

And that you don't get there like that, you know? And, and, uh, it's a challenge because most parents are busy. How did you assess that? How did you figure out exactly what she did need? Did you ask her, did you observe? Like, what is the magic behind that? I don't know that there's magic behind it. Um, but I'll, I'll put it this way.

Quite, it's, it's hard. It's hard because most of us don't, we don't know what we need most right now. You know, we tend to know what we want better than we know what we need. And, you know, trying to spend time. And it goes back to that expression. You can't get what you don't have. It's an old Latin expression, nemo dot coordin on habit.

You can't give what you don't have. If I'm trying to figure out what my [00:08:00] daughter needs, I might need to stop and spend a few minutes saying, what do I really need right now? You know, do I need a challenge? Do I need to be inspired? Do I need, do I need rest? Do I need, um, do I need to work out more? Do I need to get more regular exercise?

And like, looking in that mirror as a dad, but also as a, an owner of a company, owner of a business, you know? And I get to speak all over the world. I can't give energy if I don't have it. So many people don't realize, when does your energy go up and down? We do a, we do a workshop with companies on emotional intelligence, and I almost always have them spend time mapping out their energy level through.

A day or, or even a week, and notice at least once an hour map your energy if it's just, let's say zero to 10, and you'll notice that, wow. Right after lunch, for a lot of people, their energy goes off a cliff. It goes from seven or so, let's say, or eight or nine maybe in the morning to two or three for a chunk of time.

And you know, so this afternoon I'll take a walk for 10 minutes, but a pretty [00:09:00] vigorous walk and it really affects my energy level, you know, and as a, I can't give energy, I also can't give wisdom if I don't have it. So if, if I'm not getting better at looking at what I need, it's gonna be hard for me to get better at looking at what my kids need from me.

Mm-hmm. So that's like really powerful. It's, um, as you were talking about the energy levels, I was thinking about when is it that most people have to make big decisions with their kids? It's usually after school. Mm-hmm. It's usually at the end of a workday. I'm assuming there's another dip at that point in their energy because they're mm-hmm.

When they just are trying to pack away what they just did for work and then empty it out and then respond to the kids in a way that is appropriate. Right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So, yeah. So then maybe that's where your 10 minute walk needs to come in is right after you get home. So you can, their kids are the same way.

They're coming home, home, they're exhausted. They're trying to, you know, kind of sort out how they feel or what's happened through the day, and you're both at that same point. So that, that makes it really tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, uh, Yale, Yale University does a lot on emotional intelligence, and they use this grid and, um, they have energy on one axis and then pleasantness on the other axis.

And I find it unbelievably, um, eye-opening and then very useful to, to [00:10:00] play around with either one of those or both. But even if, just through pleasantness, like how positive am I feeling? You know, because when I get low in that, I'm probably not gonna give great, uh, feedback. You know, people can feel, feel what you give them.

And, um, here, here's a piece of a challenge for parents. Most of us lead, and I had a mentor tell me this a lot. He would say this to me all the time. He said, most of us lead complicated lives to avoid changing them. And he would, he would just give you this look like. You needed to hear that, which, you know, goes with servant leadership, right?

What do I need? Most of us need desperately to simplify some parts of our schedule. You know, like people tell me all the time, I can't find time for blank. I'm like, well, then you, you know, your body will find time for it eventually, you know, if you don't find time for it, your body will give you the wake up call that you need.

You know, and you'll have a tough health issue or, you know, you'll just be wiped out. Or, um, it's a, it's a beautiful, beautiful thought. I love, uh, this is perfect. Um, so when you think about specific situations and using servant leadership. I was, I was thinking about what you said about, um, you know, when your energy [00:11:00] is low, okay, let's, let's go to mealtime.

What do we do? We eat to get energy back. Mm-hmm. But that's also when a lot of people have conversations that are maybe tougher or, you know, it's, they're bringing some, um, some issues to the table to talk about. So how or what would that look like if we were to kind of role play this out? And I'm sitting down, I'm the parent, my kids are coming to me, there's issues, maybe there's a, a school issue.

Mm-hmm. How do I react to them as a servant leader compared to just a reaction? Sure. Yeah. That's a beautiful question. Uh, let me, let me put it this way. An apple a day does what, you know, like probably everybody listening knows an apple a day affects your health, right? It keeps the doctor away, we say, but if you ask a thousand people, if they know that expression, you'll get almost all of them.

Yes. If you ask the same thousand people do you eat an apple every day, you'll get a few, maybe 3, 10, 15, you will not get a hundred. You will not get 500. It's not half. You know, and my my point is, I guess a couple things, but most game changers that we need are not big, complicated [00:12:00] things. Almost all of 'em are little tiny things that we weave into our lives that we slowly, you know, and, and bad habits are a lot easier to form.

A lot easier to form and a lot easier to live with. A lot harder to live with. I'm sorry. And, and good habits are a lot harder to form and a lot easier to live with. A lot of people do, um, you know, a latte a day, you know, or a bagel with cream cheese a day, but that's not the expression, you know, it's like change the amount of fruits and vegetables you eat and your health will change, you know?

So those little moments. I have a cup of water here. I was doing leadership work and, uh, one of our clients was, um, a, a, a high level executive at BMW. And he was going through some insane scheduling. They were launching a new car. He had to move from one continent to another in the process with his young kids, you know?

So as a dad, the kids are like new school. Oh, different language in the new school. And, um, he started an apple a day. He started one simple routine. He started a few, but let me give you one of them. He started bringing a cup of water to every conversation he had, and he said when he started feeling himself, get a little on edge, you know, you could call it like, on that grid I mentioned high energy and highly unpleasant.[00:13:00]

He would hold his cup of water and he would, he would just take a slow sip, you know, and he said that little thing helped him to kinda like, pause the process. Another thing he did is he would have his hands under the table quite often, and he would connect his fingers very slowly in that order and then disconnect them in the opposite order.

And he said what he was doing is he was getting his, his like, you know, frontal cortex to be in charge instead of the amygdalas, the, the, the brain science of it. But it was a little tiny thing. And for parents, most so often it's

take a deep breath, close your eyes, you know, or look out the window for five seconds, you know, or have a, have a, a memory of your kid that you absolutely love, cherish, you know, you wanna hold onto that memory. That memory brings you back to why you are so thrilled that you get to be their parents, you know, and, and have that memory e either in your mind or on your phone screen, or you know, where it, it gets, because we tend to go into these loops.

Where we we start, uh oh. And it's a habit, it's a pattern. It's like a, you know, we start losing it in a way, Dory. It's, uh, for a while I was doing leadership work in England and I would go for a week to England and almost every month I'd go to England for a week. Work with companies that were [00:14:00] trying to build culture and build the next generation family owned businesses, working with the leadership teams and the, and the kids.

And, um, I'd, I'd rent a car in London. At Heathrow Airport, and I'd hop in that car and it was a manual with the seat on the wrong side, the steering wheel on the wrong side. And I'd get in that car, you know, and immediately like number one, I'd get in the wrong side of the car. You hit the unlock button, you walk up to the car and you go in the left door and you're like, oh, you know, and I would do that over and over and over again for two, three days.

Sunday, Monday, I'd land on Sunday morning and Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Usually by Wednesday my brain was starting with a lot of very deliberate, high level of intentionality was starting to go. Yeah, I get in that side, you know, I back up the car, I put it in reverse, and then I would turn and I would hit my hand on the window because I'm looking over my right shoulder, you know, and it takes a while and it's, you're, you're non-conscious.

Runs most of your life, you know, so even you're a parent at dinner and your kid says something, or you're a parent and you're in the car and your kid doesn't respond to you because they're staring at their phone, you know? And your non-conscious [00:15:00] routine or little cycle or little habit is maybe to give them a look or say something.

And maybe it's very sarcastic, you know? And to own that, like, driving the car on the wrong side of the road, it takes an incredible amount of intentional deliberateness. But you can do it. You know, just like, just like this, you can be like, I'm not gonna respond. I'm gonna, I'm, I'm going to buy five seconds.

You know? I call it win a moment. If you can't win a minute, you know, win a moment. Win a moment. Just be like, and, and just like look like, smile, and be like, love you too. Or missed you hope you had a great day. You know, it might require something like, you know, my BMW uh, friend would do, where you have to really shift, you know, and they call it pattern interrupt where you say, wait a second, I'm gonna say something that's very different.

You know, like instead of responding to that with the same wall, you know, if you push like this, you push back. I'm gonna respond with, you know, I was thinking about last summer in that trip we took, and your brain and their brain kind of go, whoop, get out of that loop. You know? Will it work every time? Uh, probably [00:16:00] not.

You know, will you do it every time? Probably not. But when I get into this little loop or you get into this little loop, it's, there are ways, you know, maybe you just sit, sit more upright for a couple seconds, maybe you stop driving for a second. And just go. I've been thinking about, you know, the, the weather I love, I love when, uh, I love when the seasons change, even though it's a little cool and damp outside today.

You know, and little things can really shift us, you know, and, and servant leaders. You know, it's that choosing to, to love. Right. Which it's, it's a's a hard choice. You know? Sometimes I'm not feeling very loving towards my kids. You know, the people closest to us that know, they know all of our buttons and they know buttons that we don't know about yet, but then they're looking for buttons that we don't know about yet.

You know, I wonder if this'll work with dad. Hmm. You know? And. Taking that time to yourself to again, go back to what you need and then be able to respond to what they need. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You made me wonder something when you were talking about that, because I think we live so much in the moment as parents mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That we don't think ahead to what will be remembered. Um, and so I was thinking about just even the concept of, um, leaving a legacy. Like our kids and mine are old enough now that they tell stories about us, and sometimes there's stories that I'm like, [00:17:00] wow, did I really do that? That's awesome. That, wow, that was good parenting, right?

Yeah. And there's other times where I'm like, oh, I, I am sure they were remembering this wrong. Mm-hmm. We're sort of leaving a legacy mm-hmm. Of the stories that they'll tell about us. Yeah. How does that play into this too? That's a big one. That's a, that's a huge one. You know, I would say under the umbrella of wisdom, um, the best things in life are not things, you know, by far, the best things in life are not things.

And, um, one, one of the kind of unwritten rules that we have in our family is, um, we, we show up for, for funerals. And part of it is to honor the person, but a big part of it really is that it's, it's that reminder that we desperately need, like, if you wanna change anything in your life, you, you need reminders and reality checks.

You need some way to go. Like, how, how's that going? You know, like the, the CEI mentioned it every Friday, 10 minutes, he just sits down and goes, how'd I do as a dad this week? You know, it's, it's just a reminder or a reality check. And, uh, we were, we had the chance to, um. Take the kids to Poland, uh, over Easter a year, year and a half ago.

And, uh, my wife was born and raised in Poland. Uh, left Poland when it was still [00:18:00] communist. I mean, they had to sneak out in the, in the dark, you know, in, in the night. She was 12. Can you imagine like sneaking out, you know, we're leaving, we're leaving the country. Don't say don't tell anyone where we're going 'cause we're not allowed to leave the country.

Um, but we, we were there over Easter and they have this unbelievable tradition in Poland where they put fresh flowers on the tombs of, of everyone, of everyone, you know. And we went to visit, you know, my wife's grandmother, uh, well, both of her grandparents on one side, her grandmother on another side, one of her uncles who recently passed away, you know, and I, the first time you walk into a cemetery and you see all these flowers, you think like w.

What's going on? You know, is it a hot, is it a special? And it is special, but it's not a special moment. It's, they just do that. And as a result, talk about little things that are like the first domino. As a result, people go to cemeteries quite regularly. Hmm. Because you have to keep the fresh flowers, and as a result, you think about your own.

You know, there, there were, there was a group of monks that would always say, uh, I think Memento, Moori, remember death. Like, [00:19:00] don't, don't forget that you don't live forever. And it's one of the most beautiful things, if you will, weave that into your schedule. Either go to a cemetery once, a once a month, um, or, you know, look up pictures of a family member who passed away.

Like, put it in the calendar. Do it, do it regularly, because it's this beautiful reminder that, you know, you get this amount of time. And I forget it all the time. You know, and I, I forget the whole idea that like, this could be the last day I spend with my wife, my daughters, my parents, and I forget, you know, I forget.

It's one of the reasons, honestly, Dory podcasts like yours are so powerful that we need reminders like woven into our schedule because we get so busy. You know, Henry David Throw goes and lives in the woods for two years, two months and two days. And while he's there, he is writing this journal and he says, it's not enough to be busy.

So too, or the ants, the question is, what are you busy about? You know? In other words, what are you, what are you doing with it? And we all need this kind of a routine of step back, you know, and, and think like if today's the laugh, this is the last time I say [00:20:00] goodnight to one of my kids. Let me not go to sleep, you know, with, with a, a bad phrase or word.

And it, it puts us back on track so quickly, so quickly. And, and I, I need it. You need it. You know, we probably, all of us need, you know, things on our wall that remind us, um, little videos that remind us, people that remind us that, that get us to go, like, you know, during my, uh, my aunt, one of my aunts passed away.

And, um, the funeral was like her oldest son said, mom was like Billy Joel at Yankee Stadium. Her, her fu her funeral. He's like, he's like, she sold out all three shows, like The Line, the line was around the block and people didn't leave. And everyone that came, they were talking about stories of her. And it was because the two, those first two, I said, parents, like, there's three great scoreboards.

One is love, one is wisdom. She, she cared about people. You know, as, as an aunt, when I was a kid growing up, she cared about you enough to know who you are and to tell you stuff that you needed to [00:21:00] hear. You know, and she'd spend time with you. She'd talk to you about things you're doing, things you're excited about, things you're worried about.

And she'd also say, wow. So if you wanna make that team, you gotta step up your, uh, your work ethic. Huh. And she'd smile and nod and you're like, yeah, yeah. You know, but that's love. Right? That's really, love is deeper than just being nice. It's like I care about you enough to know who you are, where you are, and, and like who you could be.

Uh, so it is that love. It's the wisdom of of, of seeing that. And that takes spending time thinking about it. And then the third one we talked about in our last conversation is the courage to, to say the thing that we know we probably should, you know? And whew. Is that the hardest one? Yeah. Ah, maybe for a lot of us.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that honesty of, of not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, but see them enough to know that their potential isn't being met in some way mm-hmm. Or that they're, I, I think about that in like, people's happiness about life sometimes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And they're not even really aware of the fact that they're limiting themselves and like, how do you, I'm not, I'm asking and not asking, but like, how do you help [00:22:00] somebody see that there's so much more that they could be doing or offering other people?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You got that right. That's for sure. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, sometimes too, as parents, I think it, we feel overwhelmed anyway. Mm-hmm. Um, because of the sheer, um, weight of trying to help our kids just be the best that they can be and still be a good parent. So, yeah. To me it sounds like this act of.

A servant leader, the focus on that is not something that needs to be like overwhelmingly hard. Mm-hmm. It just needs to be very intentional. Would you agree with that? Oh yeah. Very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a big piece of it that says you, you're never gonna get there. You know, if like the perfect parent is up here, you're not gonna get there.

You know, a, a big piece of, of courage is, is humility. Is, is stopping what you're doing to look at what you're doing and say, okay, all right. You know, I was, I was more patient today than I was the last time this happened. All right. You know, and, and I think, I think very often. And I think a lot of parents struggle with this, but it's, it takes a, a tremendous amount of courage and wisdom and, and love to, to stop and say, look, I, I've never, I've never raised a kid in, in that's, you know, my kids, let's say 15, my old, my youngest daughter's, 15.

I've never raised a 15-year-old in this current time. You know, like I, this is my first time doing this with, with you. [00:23:00] And, you know, you said this earlier, Dory, that every kid, they're so unique that even if, even if you've had three kids before and, and this is your fourth, it's brutally honest to say, I've, I've never tried to raise you before.

And I mean, I tell my daughters this a lot. I say, I, I, I love you no matter what, and I want what's best for you, not just now. But 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now. And, and sometimes, I'm trying to think both and I, and I mess up on one end or the other. I'm like, and I'll tell 'em this, I say like, I want you to have habits where when you're 25, 35, you're really happy.

You have those habits, you know? And, and I don't know if I'm helping you with that right now. And that's why I am telling you something that I, I'd rather not say, but I, I don't, I care about you now and in the future. And, and I think it's a challenge for parents to do that, but be honest, you know, like I'm trying to close the gap and I'm so far from perfect.

I texted my, one of my daughters this, um, two days ago. [00:24:00] I'm like, I'm so far from perfect. And, um, but I love you no matter what, you know? And like, I, like, I don't know. I'll try to handle that conversation better next time. I, I, I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm pretty sure I didn't do a good job with it this time. I feel like I, I can agree with that.

I feel like I constantly, not constantly, but frequently, um, will say, Hey, um, yeah, I just realized how that probably sounded on your end, and that's not the way that I meant it to sound. And so it's like a little bit of a back, but also an admission that. Again, you know, like you said, you're not perfect. You can't expect, I don't expect it out of you.

You're probably not gonna get it out of me, so let's just meet halfway somewhere. And I think, I think they appreciate that. I think they like to see us as a leader, but also as a human. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think as a, as a person, period, one of the hardest things to try to wrestle with is, is this one sentence.

It's, it's not about you, you know, because so often when something doesn't go right, we're thinking, it's like, it's, it's about me. You know? I'll give you an example, um, that may or may not be true. Uh, imagine having a 16 or 17-year-old that is, uh, ready to drive, right. Or learning to drive. And let's, let's just, let's imagine that the, let's say it's a 17-year-old, um, has their license, um, but they have not been.

Very responsible or [00:25:00] respectful, um, or, uh, kind or polite. They, they, they've been like checking some boxes where you're, you're not, the parent is not thrilled with them. Uh, let's pretend it's, let's pretend it's me and, and my, my, one of my kids. Let's pretend and, and let's say that kid comes to me and says, um, can I borrow your car this weekend to do whatever?

Right? My first thought is probably Uhuh, you know? And then let's say the kid does all the nice things to, you know, sorta, you know, push the buttons of Daddy, feel bad for me. And, um, and then I say, all right. And then I, I give my daughter the keys and she leaves and I say, but be back by this time no matter what, blah, blah, blah.

Right? And I give her, let's say I give her a crazy time, you know, like an hour or two before any of her friends have to be home. Let's say it's, let's say it's 10 o'clock, be back by 10, right at nine 30. Am I at home sitting there thinking, I hope she gets home on time.

Probably not, right? I'm probably honestly writing my speech for what I'll say to her when she's late, right? And then at 9 40, 9 59 56, 9 58, 9 59, you know? And by 9 [00:26:00] 59, where am I? Like, I mean, today I'm probably looking at her phone knowing where she is, but. She pulls into the driveway, let's say at 9 59 with like 20 seconds to spare right.

And runs into the house. What, what is my first comment to her? Cutting it close probably, right? I mean, my first comment is probably cutting it close. Did you fill up the car with gas? Did you speed on the way home? You know, how come you slammed the door of my car on the way in? Like, it, it, I, I, the day didn't go the way I wanted it to go.

Right? And, and this phrase of, it's not about me, it's, it's about seeing her.

Not as, I, I've kind of started imagining her to be in these moments, you know, because when, when our kid, our kids are gonna do this, they're gonna do seven things, where we're like, I can't believe you did that. I can't believe you said that. I can't believe you gave me that look. You know, why didn't you, you know, in the game, why didn't you, you know, why were you not hustling?

Like, we make these lists of things and so often it becomes, I, I wanna look good. [00:27:00] I wanna look like I've done a good job as a parent because my kid is always the best hustler, always the most response. Her grades. And she got into this school and she applied to that one. You know, or she, whatever it is, whatever the list, she helps out when at Thanksgiving dinner.

Um, you know, and when they don't, we start think we, we tend to start thinking. We don't say it out loud. We start thinking it's about me and how does this reflect on me? You know? And it's, it is a big shift. It's a big shift to go from it's about me, that it's not about me. So good. It's such a good sense to in embed somewhere in your brain, like mm-hmm.

So good. And the, yeah, and the story was tal, so I'm glad that you were able to share that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That would never happen. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. So, Jonathan, I know that you have a really cool parenting opportunity going on right now. Mm-hmm. Would you mind sharing that with our listeners and tell 'em all about it?

Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. So while we've been doing this research on these deeply authentic servant leaders, um, I wanted to run two experiments, one inside companies and then another with parents. And part of the reason for the parents, well there's a few one, one is I'm a parent, and, uh, two is I know how [00:28:00] profoundly parents, um, wrestle with things and can have a gr an amazing influence on, on their kids even more than, than we realize.

Um, but, but the last one is this. I, I wanted to give parents the chance to have a group of parents to good, good parents to do life with, you know, where they could get together and say, we're, I'm trying to get better at, let's say it's, let's say it's one of these pillars I talked about, like letting my kids know that I love them no matter what, you know, and we decided that let's, let's get together once a week for an hour, 45 minutes.

And, you know. Talk about a one concept and, and how we might want to wrestle with that, apply that, try to get better at that, how we're doing with that, you know, so right now, and, and we're doing it with several different, um, pilot groups of parents so that we can experiment with different things, you know, and like right now we're covering with all the groups, the idea of what are the five things your kids most need from you right now.

And it was amazing because we started it with asking that question, you know, and, and is it the same five for each of your [00:29:00] kids? Or does this, you know, my, my two daughters, my 19-year-old really needs these 2, 3, 4 things from me right now. Maybe it's only one or two. Um, and then my 15-year-old needs very different things from me right now, you know?

And, and one of those might be guidance. You know, one of them might be encouragement, one of them might be just time. It's just time because so often, uh, you know, we get busy doing stuff, we get super busy doing stuff, and, um, sometimes it's that, that courage to stop doing it long enough to say, how's this really going?

You know? And, and what really matters most. You know, I I ask leaders all the time, are you, are you winning? Are you succeeding as a leader? And really, you could ask that as a parent, are you succeeding? And, and if we tried to hold up a scoreboard, you know, we go to a sports game, there's always a scoreboard, you know.

How you doing in school? There's a scoreboard. How you doing with saving for retirement? There's a scoreboard, you know, how you doing with health and fitness? Well, there's a few scoreboards, you know? Um, but as a parent, we don't really have one unless we stop and say, I want to get better at, you know, just this week I just wanna spend more time with, with this one of my kids, one-on-one time.

[00:30:00] That's it. You know? And we, we have to make our own scoreboard. And it's probably not one thing, it's probably one thing this week or maybe over the next three or four weeks, you know, maybe I was doing a turnaround with a big company, and one of their leaders was really good at 90% of things, but he didn't pause, notice, smile, you know, and he, he would help.

His, you know, he was responsible for a, about 400 people, you know, pretty decent chunk of an organization and, um, great at making decisions, great at thinking things through. He was, he, he, he cared about his, the people in his group a lot, but he didn't, and he, and he valued their time in a way that he thought, I don't wanna waste their time by making meetings longer or interactions longer.

And the people didn't feel that he cared. He needed to pause more and just say, how are we doing? You know, he needed to put walk with people more often. He needed to smile more [00:31:00] often. And it is like, you know, it's like that apple a day for most of us as parents, it's like, if I get a little better at one little thing, my relationship with one of my kids is a little better next week than it was this week.

And then you're gonna mess up, you know. You are gonna mess up. Energy level, went down at 2:00 PM right? And you are gonna make a mistake and then you start over. You know? Um, there's a beautiful story. Walt Disney, the last, about two and a half years of his life. He had, uh, he was diagnosed with lung cancer.

He, he, I dunno if he knew, but he, he knew he had lung cancer. I dunno if he knew he had, his days were numbered. Doctors were telling him his days were numbered, but that doesn't mean he bought it. Right. But for the last two and a half years of his life, Walt Disney would go into the Friday afternoons, he'd go into the Sherman Brothers office where they were working on, uh, all the songs for the Jungle Book, the Bare Necessities, and, you know, all you.

Forget about your troubles and your strife, you know? And he would go in their office and he would ask 'em what they're working on, and, um, he'd help 'em with the song or with animating, you know, how would the animation go with the song? And then he would stop. And they said, quite [00:32:00] often, every Friday, Friday after Friday after Friday, after Friday, after Friday, you know, for two and a half years, Walt would go, they said sometimes he'd go over to the window and look out the window.

Sometimes he'd go to the piano with them. But at the end of that Friday conversation, Walt would say, play the song. And the Sherman brothers knew what song, and they would sit at the piano and they would play the song. They wrote all the music for Mary Poppins as well. And they would play the song, feed the Birds, feed the birds, tuppens a bag, you know, with Tupin for paper.

You know, like they would, they would play this song and say, said sometimes Walt would sing along. Sometimes he'd, he'd hit a few keys on the piano. Sometimes he'd look out the window. Sometimes he'd have tears streaming down his face. And when they were done playing the song, Walt Disney would turn and, and walk out the door.

As he walked out the door, they said, he would say this almost every time. He would say, that's what it's all about. Have a great weekend. And it was his like, we all need these rhythms, these routines, these reminders, these reality checks of what's it all about? It's about, you know, trying to love your kids, trying to, you know, the love, the wisdom, the courage, and you're gonna be off all [00:33:00] the time, you know?

But have this little rhythm or routine where like every, maybe it's every Friday, maybe it's every, I don't know, maybe it's every Saturday or Sunday morning, or maybe it's every once, once a week in the evening and you sit down and go, all right, that's what it's all about. And we get another week to do it.

We get another day to do it. You know? And keeping ourselves, I mean, Walt Disney needed a reminder. And me and you, I think we all need reminders like that. Definitely. Definitely need reminders. Yeah. Jonathan, where if they wanna find out more about this, where do they go to find out more? Sure. Um, two, two places.

And I, I think I, I can give you the links too, but one of 'em is my name.com, jonathan fanning.com. And I would, uh, invite you, challenge you, inspire you to, to go to my name.com/last time, um, and I'll give you the link, but it's a, it's a poem That's an amazing. Reality check as a parent, you'll, uh, you'll love it and you'll probably really not like it at all, you know, because it's, it's about those last times and you could download the poem and, uh, but we made a video, uh, with it with my daughters.

It's about those things that are the last time, you know, the last time you go to one of your kids' soccer [00:34:00] games, you know, the last time they want in the video. You see the last time they want help with the bike, you know, the last time they hop up on your lap. And the poem is about how often, um, we don't even know.

It's the last time. We don't know until weeks or months or years later when we think back and say, oh, we don't, we don't do that anymore. I don't, I don't know when the last time was, but it's like, it, it, it will hit you. Um, and it's worth, uh, it's worth watching, listening to, you know, download the poem. It's worth revisiting every now and then, you know, put it in your calendar a couple times, maybe a couple times before, between now and, you know, Thanksgiving or whatever.

'cause it, it gets you back. Like, it, it's, it's probably more effective than taking a sip of water. Um, so that's one place. Uh, and another place because I absolutely love parents. Uh, my name.com/onex and they can download an audio, uh, version for free of one of my books, of my book. Who are you Becoming? Um, which has a ton of stuff about just closing the gap between who I am and who I can be.

A lot of stories that really will, I don't know, I think kind of reach into your life and, um, challenge you, inspire, you, encourage, you, get you thinking. So those two [00:35:00] places. It. I, I'm gonna have to have a box of Kleenex to watch the last time. You, you might. Yeah. Most pa like, you know, I can't tell you how many I do.

I spent half my life in the, in the leadership world. And I'll have somebody who's walking into a meeting and they're like, Jonathan, you know, we were talking about something and I don't know, I, I ended up on one of your web pages or one of your YouTube channel. I found the last time, Paul, now I can't go to the meeting.

'cause I'm like,

yeah, yeah. But it's like Walt Disney's routine. We need these little reminders, you know? Um, we need these little things that kind of bring us back to going like, all right, what's it all about? What's it all about? And don't forget, 'cause we forget, we get, we get full of our lives, our schedules are full. So on, on that note.

Knowing that this is your last question, what is one thing that a parent could do today to become more like a servant leader? That's a really good question. It's, well, I'll tell you a very little thing, um, that's easy to say and massive profound impact. It's actually advice that, uh, patch Adams gave me. Um, I spent a couple hours with Patch Adams.

He doesn't look like Robin Williams, but, um, he is [00:36:00] hilarious, uh, but also a deep thinker. And he said, and he said it probably a dozen times in our conversation, he said, tell me who your role models are and I'll tell you what kind of person you're becoming and, um, you know, profound impact on people.

Whether you want to run a company or be a great mom or dad, uh, just go out of your way to find. Or spend time, more time thinking, reflecting on a role model. Who, who really makes you, I call it positively uncomfortable. You know, like I, I've read biography after biography of Walt Disney, and, and that's part of the reason I love, I love little, he, he, he was the kind of guy that always said, it's, it's not about me, it's not about money.

He said, I never knew how much money I had in the bank. We would've gone bankrupt several times if I, if I was in charge of the finances. Um, but he was always about bringing something amazing to people. You know, he, he always would say like, do our stories really uplift and inspire and challenge, you know, do they teach morals?

Do they teach? And he always would pull his actors and actresses aside and say, your, your job is to influence the, the, the world. You know, so you, you have to be careful how you behave outside of the stage, [00:37:00] not just on the stage. Um. So I, I would challenge parents to get one more or spend more time with, even if it's reading about a role model, who makes you positively uncomfortable.

You know, my aunt, you know, thinking about her and thinking like, what are some of the things she did, you know? And the more time I spend reflecting on a role model, letting that role model, um, have influence in my life in a positive direction, game changer. You know, because we're like, oh, would, would, would, would Aunt Pappy be, be proud?

That's beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. All right, parents, you know where to look. Jonathan fanning.com. Um, check out the links in the podcast. Jonathan, I can't thank you enough. You've given us so much to think about as parents and not just in the moment, but the longevity of what we leave behind. Thank you so much.

You bet. Thank you. Thanks for what you do.



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Dori Durbin

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