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The Aro Podcast
"When Doing It All is Undoing You" with author Alyssa Bethke
Join host Joey Odom on the Aro Podcast as he sits down with Alyssa Joy Bethke, author of ‘When Doing It All Is Undoing You.’ Alyssa shares her deep calling to minister to women and her insights into the insecurities, pressures, and emotional burdens that many women face in our modern culture. She shares her journey through the impact of social media on self-worth and how community plays a vital role in affirming individual gifts. This conversation offers valuable wisdom for women (and men) who struggle with the pressure to "do it all" and the resulting feelings of being "undone." You can find Alyssa's new book on shelves September 17.
Learn more about Alyssa: Instagram | Website | Book
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The Aro Podcast is produced and edited by Palm Tree Pod Co.
I feel it all the time on social media. I have to, like, guard my heart so much, and I think it depends on why I'm going on social media and the state of my heart. Sometimes I go on because, honestly, I'm like, kind of sad, or I'm trying to numb, or I'm trying to distract myself, so I'm kind of vulnerable. But I go on and and then I come away feeling like, oh, like, I'm less than and I think we have to be really careful of that in the book I talked about, you know, what really matters most is our heart. I think a lot of times we try to stuff our emotions and neglect our heart numb out because we're just sometimes life is too painful, or we're scared of, like, if we actually go there, what will come out? And a lot of times we go to our phones to numb out. We, you know, Netflix, whatever, or Instagram, Pinterest, we want to escape our realities a little bit. And that can be like the worst time for your heart to then go on and comparison just comes and just rips it apart.
Joey Odom:Welcome back to the Aro podcast. Hey, it's your good friend. Joey Odom, co founder of Aro. And quick question for you, Have you struggled with your phone? Have you found your phone getting in the way of things that are more important to you if you're like me, or if you are like any other human I've met? I bet that that is the case. I bet that you have struggled with it to some degree. And if you're at a point now where you're saying this has gone too far, or I need some help. I need some help in this area, I want to encourage you real quick, go download the Aro app. The Aro app in the Google Play Store, in the App Store, download it for absolutely free for seven days to see if this can help you, just like it's helped the 1000s and 1000s of families. Go try out the Aro app, A, R, O, go search that, up, download that, try it. See if it can work for you. I believe that it will, and I'm excited for you and your process. Today's episode is with Alyssa Bethke. Alyssa Bethke is an author. She's a brilliant thinker. In this interview, I didn't mean to throw curve balls at her, but I felt like I was so curious, I just kept asking questions, and she had such clarity in her answers as I was asking these questions. So her book has just come out. It is called, when doing it all is undoing you. And this is a book that is intended for women. So she has a podcast called forming women. This is intended for women, and it gets to the heart matters, right, to the to the matters of the heart, and the way that women all people, by the way I read this, and I thought it was very applicable for men as well, but for women, specifically, how women may neglect their hearts, and how they may try to earn their hearts, and how they can lose heart. And how she says, We need fullness of heart so we walk through this. We talk we talk about how social media impacts this and how, when she talked about it, a struggle she had with social media, she she mentioned she felt like Instagram wasn't the cause, but it highlighted some things that she was already dealing with. And I thought that was so insightful, is the way she looked at social media. I would encourage you, as you listen to this women, especially if you're listening to this, and there's some things that hit there are things that say, Ooh, I would love for my husband to hear that. Will you forward this episode along your husband and even tell them the minute mark. Are we? Sometimes we need some hand holding. Give them the minute mark and say, right here, listen to this, because I've been feeling this way. This is a great disarming way to share this with your spouses so they can kind of understand the things you're going through. And I would highly encourage you to order this book, and when you read it, highlight it. Highlight it for your husband to read and say, Hey, this really hits with me. It's so helpful for us as husbands. It's so helpful for us to hear those things from you, and when you can have somebody else, it kind of makes a disarming way to talk about it. So please do go do that. You're going to love this interview. I was, as always, very proud of my introduction. I think Alyssa liked it as well. So I hope that you enjoy that as much as I enjoyed writing it for now. Sit back, relax and enjoy my conversation with Alyssa. Joy Becky gang Today we welcome an Evergreen State native who stands tall in the world of forming women. She's as dignified as a First Lady moving from Washington to Jefferson. You see, she traded in her poster of Timberlake for a wedding in Bonnie Lake, and loved Gilmore Girls so much that she married someone even more talkative than Lorelei. She hates camping as much as she loves guacamole and pina coladas on the beach. She stays in the kitchen for morning coffee, but out of the kitchen on the pickleball court. She recently said aloha to Maui and aloha to Nashville. In that order. Her love language is books. Her favorite movies are by Hallmark, and her guilty pleasure is Strauss' maple ice cream. She is to writing what Leanne Haynes be is to peloton instructing, and she brings so much joy that it's her middle name. Get ready for the exhilaration of a cold plunge without the misery, while you discover that Liss is more Yang, if doing it all is undoing you, you're in the right place. While we welcome to the RO podcast, our guests, our guest, Alyssa. Joy Becky. You. Melissa,
Alyssa Bethke:oh my gosh, that's amazing. Can I please have that printed?
Joey Odom:Absolutely I and confession, I had a little bit insider help. Jeff, your your sweet husband, Jeff, who's more talkative than Lorelei Gilmore, Julie, I didn't feel like I could have said that, but he actually is the one. He didn't say the lore light thing, but he said that is listening. Let's just clear this up. He said that you don't allow him to talk to you for the first two hours of the day while you have your sacred time, because, he said, because he's so so this is true.
Alyssa Bethke:This is very true. Well, okay, I will say so I'm an introvert and he's an extrovert, although he he feels that being introverted, so he's like an introverted so he's like an introverted extrovert. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. Um, when he he is like, he has two modes. His mom told me this when we got married, asleep or on. And so when he's on, he is like on. So he wakes up and he is like, all of a sudden, full speed ahead, like Laura lies, saying all the things, wanting to plan things, making me make decisions, and I'm like, I need a very slow morning. Like, don't talk to me till my coffee mug is empty and I'm on my second cup. So and because Jeff is, he can take truth really easily. So I'll just be like, nope. Don't talk to me. Like, leave me alone in my room until I'm done with my coffee.
Joey Odom:I mean, he's just, he is. He brings so much energy and so much life like, what a win. What a What a guy. So this, this was very fun. He gave me some insider information here. Full confession. I actually previewed this with him about 20 minutes ago, and he said, he said it was ready for print. So we're glad you enjoyed as well.
Alyssa Bethke:Oh, it was so good. Do you do that for all your guests?
Joey Odom:I do yes, incredible. It's it's so much fun. It really. And the fun thing about it is, Alyssa, like in the listeners are probably so sick of me. I have this, like, need inside of me to just debrief all of them too. So they this is like the section of the show where I have to have this need to debrief it. But what's fun about it is there's so much of so much of that in there that only is between the guest and me. It's like the the inside of that, like someone has no idea what I'm talking about. We talk about who Leanne Haynes be is, unless you know about peloton, or unless you read your book, because he's talking about Leanne Haynes being your book, yes. So, so yeah, it's super fun to try to make it, try to try to get off on the right foot.
Alyssa Bethke:Oh my goodness, that is incredible. Wow. Well done. Well,
Joey Odom:thank you. Thank you. I have been very excited for this conversation. Your book comes out. By the time this airs, the book will be out there for people to order. September 17 is launch date of when doing it all is undoing you and this book, we were talking a little bit off air this book, so much of this book was applicable to me. I know is designed for women, but it was so much applicable to me. And when you start dealing about heart issues, just when we start talking about our heart, we all have one, right? So we all, we all deal with it, but it also gave me a lot of insight into, probably things my wife feels, and things that she's going through, and the way that she's processing through all of this stuff with her heart. So will you begin, just, just to start now, so you have a very deep calling towards women. You podcast forming women. Will you talk a little bit about that, not only from being a woman, but just this, this deep insight you have into the insecurities and the the feelings that women have, and then kind of those needs and the way we the way we deal with our hearts, yeah,
Alyssa Bethke:well, I was so encouraged. And you said it spoke to your heart too. That is such a high compliment. And I think I I mostly speak to women because, you know, I that's my experience, that's my life. And then I've just had so many opportunities to have Bible studies and leader groups and retreats with women, to really have time and space to share our hearts, what we're grieving, what we're hoping for, what our joy is. And I, you know, I just have so many conversations about our inner dialogs with our insecurities and doubts and the things that we struggle with that, and see it played over and over and over. And so I just wanted to speak to that. And I remember a few years ago, I had put on Instagram question of, What is your biggest for women, what is your biggest challenge right now? And over and over, there are so many that said it is the pressure to be it all and do it all All right now. And I so resonate with that this really book came out of a story of the last three years of really untangling myself from those pressures. But also I've seen that played out in so many of my friends and the people I get to serve. And it's crazy because, you know, I actually didn't love, I loved the title of this book at first, when doing it all is undoing you. And then I went back and forth with my team for a really long time saying we shouldn't name it this because I think it's, it's really wordy. It's, I don't know if people remember it and and they really were like, No, this is the title of the book, and I'm so glad they kept it. Um, but it. Has been wild to every woman I have met the last couple months that find out have a book coming out. They're like, what? What's it about? What's the title? And I say it, and everyone is like, who? I need that. And so I just feel like we are living in a day and age in our culture right now where the pressure is so high that we feel this tension of coming undone from these expectations. Do
Joey Odom:you think there's something innate in well, maybe I'll give my slide thesis, and then I want you to correct it. But the there's something I believe so innate in women, especially because they have such a high level of responsibility. Just like, in some ways they just feel like, if it and I know this is true, my wife, I know the truth. My wife has told me, like, like, if I don't start that, this Kristen's line, if I don't start the dishwasher, no one's gonna start the dishwasher, right? And so, so in some ways, this is not just self imposed. This is very true. Like, these are truths that they're like, like, literally, it won't get done if I don't do it. So do you think that that, and you mentioned culture, which is obviously, like, a huge part of it. But don't you think there's something like, deeply innate in women that causes that, that like, and then again, the real but sometimes, just like, I can't keep this up 100%
Alyssa Bethke:I think culture. So I think it's multiple, multiple things. I think culture, if we're talking about that, it is we're living in the day and age where women have so many opportunities, which I love, that we're in that day and age. But opportunities quickly become expectations, so we then feel like, oh, it's we need to be doing all these things, and we're behind. If we're not doing all these things, or even being on Instagram, we're scrolling, seeing what all our friends are doing, all their highlights, which we love. But then so quickly we come away thinking, well, I need to do that too, like I should be, you know, making sourdough bread and have non toxic thing cleaners, and I should be homeschooling my kids and looking really cute, and, you know, losing weight while I'm doing it, getting my 10,000 steps, like, just these things. We're like, oh, we should be doing that. And then I think what you are saying, I totally think so. I think we I heard a woman say on a podcast I was doing that women naturally have, like, a mental load we carry. Like, of all, we wake up and, like, here's all the things that we have to do today. You know, yeah. But I also think I wrote in the book that Harley has child is to say, I think she's a psychologist, and she did a study in the, I think it was the 80s, and she named something, she coined, it emotional labor for women. And so not only do we have a lot of responsibilities, no matter what season you are, I know a lot of the listeners are parents, but even if you're single or, you know, have a career, have a house to run, you have a lot of responsibilities. And I actually think that we are like that is God's good work in us, like we are made to co create with him. We're made to partner with him. We're made to work, um, and there's this, this blessing for daughters in the Psalms that says, may they be the corner pillars in a palace. And if you think of that, I think it's one very dignified and honoring. But then I also think it's like we are made to hold up things like, we are made to hold a lot of things like, that is God's given gift and trait to women that can then so quickly get twisted of like, oh, well, if I don't do it, no one will do and I have to hold it all together. And that's not what God is asking us, of us. But then also Harley has shall name this thing called emotional labor. And so I think for women, you know, we're all emotional beings, men and women, but for women, we know, like we feel responsible often, to not only know our own emotions, but everyone else is around us, and we like, know what people are feeling. And so I don't know if you can relate to this, Joey, but for a woman, when we are in a room and another woman walks in, we immediately know, like if she's feeling anxious, if she's feeling excited, if she feels burdened, like Sherry, we hold this emotional labor, and we feel like it's our responsibility to manage the emotions of the room, to manage the emotions of our family at work, that we're not too much, but we're, you know, we're not like we also do the things we need to do. And so I think there's just even, as I'm talking, I'm like, who that is, just like, we carry so much.
Joey Odom:It is, it is so true. It's, I heard someone talk about, like, the the human brain. It's, it's, it's like, if it's like a, basically, if, if you were walking around the house and there was a lunatic screaming in your ear at all moments like that is what a brain and I really do believe that's so magnified for women, it's like, because everything is running through their head. And I I think, like, as you're talking about this, like, what it what a cool thing, and you acknowledge this in the book, like, what a given. You just said it like this, this god given trait, like the what an amazing gift in the definition, the best definition I've ever heard of wisdom is from Andy Stanley. And Andy Stanley says that wisdom is the recognition that everything in life is connected. And so what, what women's brains are doing is constantly connecting everything, like the implications of I just got a play date invitation for two Thursdays from now, at two o'clock. Well, I was going to go to Costco then, and I. Have a big work project then, or whatever that is, like, all those things immediately connect, and so like that is a heavy burden to continue to carry. That's interesting. You mentioned the Psalms made me think about that as the in the what is it, the the pillars and the the palace? Is that right, holding up the palace? So what's interesting about that, for women especially, is, let's just say there are four corners to a ballast. There are four things. And for women, it has to feel like you alone are holding up the ballast. Yeah, right. And so like you are the only dealer that can do it. And I know how, like, how heavy that can feel, and how birds that could feel, especially when you see that everything's connected. I'm curious in in that, and you talk about this at the beginning of the book, and it goes to this idea of purpose. And I'm curious, do you think? And I don't want to be overly stereotypical, but let's, let's think about for moms, whether whether working or not. Do you think that we over emphasize this, the value of a singular purpose. Like everybody asks, like, what's my purpose? Like, it's always, it's always singular, like, there's one thing. Do you think that that's unrealistic? Do you think that's healthy? Like, I would love to hear from, from your perspective, this whole concept of purpose and the value, or maybe overvalued or undervalued, or whatever you think on the idea,
Alyssa Bethke:yeah, well, I love that question. I've actually been thinking a lot about that lately. I was actually reading a book by Joseph Hellerman talking about fam, like, when the church was a family in New Testament times, and like, what it meant, like when Paul said about sisters and brothers, and just how it was so family oriented, like we live in such an individual, individualistic society, that it's like, I was so convicted throughout the book of like, wow, I just it's always like, how am I going to do it? How am I going to flourish or, or, how's my child going to flourish? And, and back then, it was like, no, what? How is it good for the family? And he had just made, I'm just going to quickly point this out. He had mainly quickly said this thing that back then, and I'm not saying one is better or worse at all, but back then, because you were part of a family, and it was all about the family, you didn't have to decide what career you're going to have, because you were going to be in your father's trade. If you were like a man, you didn't have to decide who you were going to marry, because that was decided for you, and you didn't have to decide where you're gonna live, because you lived with your family, like the sons lived with their, you know, father's family, and then the wives would marry. And so I'm not saying that is better than America at all. Like, I'm grateful that we have, I can choose who I want to marry, but it was just so fascinating that he was saying, like, we didn't even, they didn't even have the pressure of making those decisions back then, it was just like, covered by the family and, and so I think, I think on one hand, gosh, I my mentor had said this recently, a year ago, of just asking, like, what is our unique contribution to the church and to the world and and I think that is such a good question. I'm constantly asking myself that, because I believe, you know, we are created in the image of God, and he has uniquely wired us and made us with specific gifts. And I think, I believe he places us in certain towns and cities and networks and people to do specific things. And so I think we have unique contributions to give to the world, and it's not about us. It's about like, what we can give. And then, on the other hand, I think we have emphasized so much of like, what's God's will for your life? What is your calling, what is your purpose, to the point where it's really unhealthy. It's like, God, you know, he is, like, such a good father. And it's like, I remember my youth pastor growing up, he had this, like, picture a poster, and instead of trying to find the bullseye of, like, what is the one thing you need to do with your life, it was like, think of just a big circle and like, there's boundaries, there's things God says to do and not to do. But then you can, kind of like, you know, what do you enjoy doing? What do you what are you not good at? Like, really, I think there's a lot we don't talk about seasons. I think you can be called to different people and different things in different seasons, and that changes. And so I think Americans, or at least in the church, we haven't talked about that. So there's so much pressure to pick the one thing for the rest of your life, when really it's like, no, what is just like? What is your purpose right now? Like, maybe in these next three months until Christmas, or in this one year, like, who are the people you need to focus on? You know, who is under your responsibility? What are the things you need to say yes to? What are the things you need to say no to? And so I think, yeah, I think there is so much more freedom than what we gives our give ourselves. But I do think there needs to be that underlying question of you are made on purpose, for purpose with intentionality. We don't want to just like willy nilly, our life. You know our way through life like be intentional. Think about what you're gifted at, what your unique contribution. Consciousness to the world, um, but I think there's a lot more freedom than we give ourselves. Well,
Joey Odom:I love that, too. And one challenging thing, when you think about where you you're uniquely gifted, because it's, this is a unique gifting is really hard to see in yourself. It's almost impossible to see in yourself, because that when you think about our own let's just, let's just presume that everybody has some, some superpower, right? We all have a superpower because it comes naturally to you. You think it comes naturally to everyone? Well, of course, everybody's like that. And so as a result that, not only it, it's hard for you to recognize it, and probably makes you devalue what you're naturally good at. It also makes you want what somebody else is naturally gifted at, because that doesn't come naturally to you. You know, when that person probably doesn't value it in themselves at all, either, right? And so what, like, what a challenge to take a step back. And this is where you talk about, like, being in a community is helpful for people to be able to point those things out, and then you begin to recognize, like, Okay, this actually is very, very unique at us, is that, have you found that as a struggle, as saying like, you're like, Jeff said like, and these are his words. He said, You are insanely gifted writer, and which I'm sure you spent time even in this book, like questioning yourself, Is this even coming through, like, is that? What is that that process, like, of really being able to own your unique giftings and talents? Yeah, such
Alyssa Bethke:a good question. I think it's a process. I think it takes time. I I definitely agree that it takes community. I think it's people. I think one it's like going back and thinking of your childhood, what were the things that you love doing that just came naturally to you? So I was actually been thinking about that this week, because we moved from Maui to Tennessee this summer, so we have a new community. My book comes out soon. I'm in seminary, and it ends in December, and so I'm just asking the Lord, like, what's next? What can I give to you know, in this season of my life, in this next season, as things are ending and closing, and I was reminded, like, go back to your childhood and think of things you loved and and I think that really shows like, our giftings. And one was, I remember in fifth grade, I would just naturally gather girls, like, I would form clubs and, like, have Hangouts and retreat, you know, retreats back then, or just like, sleepovers, and I would plan out the whole thing. And that's like, what I do today, like, I plan retreats for women. And so that really gives me a lot of joy. And so I think it's that, I think it's having people in your life who know you, your parents, teachers, coaches, think of like what they have said to you in the past, and your friends now, and your spouse, because they it's so true. Like you don't see your natural gifts because it comes naturally to you. You just assume like, Well, yeah, anyone can do that when, really, when other people can say no, that is unique to you. That is so hard for me. Like, I see this in you and really taking note of those things. And then I also think it's where your passion and burdens collide. So you know the thing that maybe you really delight in, or you're really excited about, or that you feel very passionate about, and it's always marked with like burdens, like maybe it's your your story and your pain, or the areas where you hear other people's story and it just breaks your heart, and you want to contribute to that. And so I definitely think that is a way to find purpose and calling. But I think for moms, really focusing on, like, just the season, like, and I think you can have like, for instance, um, going back to me gathering people, like, I'm a gatherer. I love, like, pouring into women. And that looks really different in different seasons I'm in, depending on if I have newborns, or if I have more time to say yes, or more capacity, depending on where I live. And so it's really season by season two.
Joey Odom:Quick note for people listening on what you just said, of how, if, how, you know, hearing what other people say about you, I'd encourage people listening as you see this in other as you see good things in other people. It's so important to just say it, and you may look a little bit you may feel like you're going to look a little bit silly, but I've never in my life thought someone looked silly when they gave me a compliment. So I've so that's so that's okay to give somebody a compliment, but that encouragement Justin whitmill early talks about this is that, you know, we talked about rebuke and encouragement, and encouragement is seeing something good in somebody else that you want them to continue, that they should continue to do, and if and almost implied in that is, if you don't give that encouragement, there's a chance they may stop doing that great thing. So as much as we all know how much we love it, but I'd encourage all of us as challenging myself too. Let's just, let's, let's go ahead and when we see good things in somebody else, just go ahead and say it to them, because that will continue to foster that good thing in them. I want to, I want to talk real quick when it comes to you, talk about insecurity and feeling unseen and worthlessness and shame. That there's a such a I had such a light bulb moment reading the book when there was one line you said, I can be critic, talking about your husband, Jeff, I can. Be critical of Jeff when I feel worthless. Yeah, and it's like we get in these situations as guys, we just get so defensive. Sometimes it's like our wives, you know, may criticize us or say we don't start the dishwasher. Yes, this is a real example. The dishwashers keep coming up. It's my fault. It's on me. I get it, Alyssa, it's okay. I'm gonna start I'm gonna start the dishwasher soon, I promise. But we we feel like we're being criticized, and we get defensive when we argue. We go back and forth. But that's not even the thing, right? It's almost like we can take a step back and realize what I wonder. What's going on in in Kristen's heart. I wonder, if Jeff say I wonder what's going on in alyssa's heart. Will you expand a little bit on that the you knowing that you can be more critical of Jeff in moments when you might feel worthless.
Alyssa Bethke:Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that that up. I think, you know marital things, like, there's always squabbles and things that you fight over, or big and small, like really heavy and really little. But I think we need to become people who are really self aware. I think if we don't process our life. And if we don't process how we're feeling or why we got triggered or why we got upset, then things just come out sideways, and it ends up, you know, coming on out in weird ways to other people. And often it's the people we love most. And so our husband, you know, for me, my husband, and in that story, I was saying, I was talking to a friend about it. We talked about marriage and just how we can become critical of our husbands. But really it's because, you know, oftentimes it's because I feel unseen, like I feel like, you know, like I'm doing all these things and he doesn't see it, and so I become more critical of him. But really it's because I feel like worthless, because if I really, really get down to the root of it, I am putting my significance in what I can do, instead of who I am and and so I can just, like, start to blame him, instead of really just taking a moment like, Okay, why am I feeling like, why am I critical? Why? Oh, I don't feel very seen. Why is that? And obviously you can talk to your spouse in love of, like, Hey, I am working really hard. I would I just, I feel like I'm in a week or a season that I just need a little more encouragement, or you to just see me a little more and like, thank me. But really, like, we need to learn to be okay, even if that doesn't happen. Like, to take responsibility for our own actions and our own hearts and and really coming down to like, Well, where is my worth and value is? It's not so much like, because I put, and I think often that's wrapped up, and I'm such a people pleaser. And so like, if I'm not, you know, pleasing my husband or and I mean that in the sense of like, I'm not like, he doesn't see what I'm doing. He doesn't, especially if I'm doing it at the expense of my own self, like I'm planning all this out to serve you, when I really would rather do this. And then he doesn't see it and isn't thankful. Then I just like, it's like, my kids love Dude Perfect. And it's like, rage monster comes out. I'm like, so critical of every little thing. Like, Why do you leave your boxers on the floor? You know? And normally I'm like, I remember when we first got before we got married, my um, mentor was like, my husband leaves his boxer on the floor 20 years and I just have to think, I'm so grateful to have a husband that I can pick up his boxers. You know, that's like the outlook I wanted, I want to have all the time, but when I'm starting to feel really worthless and looking to my husband to feel that worth, which obviously we want to be encouraging. We want to love each other, but that also I need to be like, you know, differentiated, and like, Okay, if that's not the case. And so, yeah, but I think there's always something behind it, but then really coming alongside your spouse and like, hey, like, how's your heart? Are you, you know? Do you need an I don't know. And don't ever say, like, Oh, is it that time of the month? Because then I get real ragey. I'm like, but even if it is, it's just like, there's something more. Like, care for my heart. There's something more there.
Joey Odom:Wow, that's a, yeah, that's a, that's a real trap there. That's, that's, I've learned. I've learned just not to, not to say that. But my son, I've like, I've personally been able to coach him, like, hey, that's just we never mentioned that. We all know we that, we just never mentioned that. All right, we're just going to stay far, far away from that. And it's, by the way it is. It's, I will say, in my experience, in my in my best moments, it's so helpful for when Kristen will say to me, if she'll just, like, spoon feed it to me, I would, I wish I would see it more than normally, but it just spoon feeding me, this idea of like, Hey, I don't feel like, you see me right now. I need a little bit more. Like, you know, I don't actually love like XYZ, whether it's, you know, stuff that she does for the family, like, I would much rather be doing something else. And so it's, it's helpful to do that. I will say, just as a pro tip, it comes across a lot easier to me. Like crystal a lot of times be like, hey, I want to say something to you, and I feel very vulnerable saying it. So I just want to say it. And then she. Say something like, Hey, I just feel like I need a little bit more, little more love this week, or I need you to. It's helpful for me. When you notice these things, that's those are, I think, on both sides of it, it's almost like we want the other person to just like preternaturally know what we need in that moment. It is a great thing to verbalize those things, talking about, kind of the, maybe the insecurity side of things, you know, we think, obviously a lot about phones and social media at RO, and you told a story about when you started the this morning with with joy and thankfulness, and then you took a peek at Instagram. And again, this is, no, we're not demonizing Instagram, but, but I'd love to hear your perspective on that story, but then also what it's like to be in the comparison trap and the way that social media, the way the phones could kind of pull away from that kind of joy and the gratitude,
Alyssa Bethke:yeah, well, I in the book, I wrote the story, I kind of had taken a Social media sabbatical for like, six months because, oh, I got off. And then I was like, I just really enjoy not being on. I would choose not to be on if, like, my job didn't depend upon it. Um, and and then I was in school and I was writing this book, and I'm like, I just really don't want any distractions. I want to, like, hear from the Lord. I want to do the deep work and be able to give as much I can, you know, away to this book. And so it was kind of towards the end, I was finishing up the book, and one night, one day, I had woken up in the morning, just like it was after a week of having the flu, Jeff was gone. I was taking care of the kids. And, you know, my husband has traveled a lot. He's traveled the whole time we've been married. And so I've single mommed a lot, and it's always been really hard. And this is the first week this was, like, two years ago where I was like, I am okay, like, I am really thankful that I have my kids, and I feel fully sustained, and I am just embracing it, even though, like, all the babysitters fell through and I was really sick, and it didn't go the way I expected. I was like, this has been a really sweet week. Like, I saw the Lord show up. I was very present with the Lord, very present with my kids, and just really grateful and and so I journaled that morning of like, Lord, you're so good, you know, like, You're so good. I feel so content, so joyful. I see you working in all these ways. And then that night, my friend had told me, you know, I'm not, like, a huge Swifty, but it was when she started to dating Travis Kelsey. I'm like, I didn't know what's happening. And so I was sitting down. The kids had gone to bed, I got a brownie out, and I was like, Okay, I have seminary work to do, but I'm just gonna check my phone for five minutes to figure out this Taylor Swift thing. And, and all of a sudden it was just like, everybody's feed came up, and it was all my friends and acquaintances and just amazing things that they were doing. It was like, this friend, these two friends, multiple friends, went to Europe. One was pregnant, one came out with a new podcast. One came out the new book. And, you know, and, like, my job, like, those are really big things. Like, yeah, like, we do podcasts and books, and I know what a feat that is. And I just all of a sudden, I think, because I hadn't been on social media for so long, it was just like an immediate wow, like I feel one so excited for them. And simultaneously, what am I doing with my life? Like I feel so hidden. I feel like, like, just nothing to show for it, nothing that is like sexy or glam, you know, like on Instagram, like nothing to post about. I just was sick at home all week with my kids, and yet that morning, I was so grateful. I was fully present. I was loving my family, loving my life, seeing the Lord work and then quickly, just compared to everyone else, and felt so behind, and felt like worthless. And so I think, you know, I think social media is a beautiful thing. I think I go on there and I learn from people. I hear sermons, I hear encouragement. I love seeing what all my people are doing, and I have to work really hard to guard my heart, because it's so quickly can and it doesn't. It's not that it causes the insecurities, it's that it just shines a light on my insecurities, of like, just really knowing who I am in Christ and what he's called me to, and being present in my moment. And I think social media can give this allure of wanting more and not being present and not taking into account your your story, yours, you know, your places, your people, your limitations, and so, yeah, it was just so apparent to me of not Like that social media is bad, but like, Oh, my heart. Like, I just need Jesus more and more and more, and I need to be reminded of who he's called me to be and where I'm at and to be thankful for where I'm at and not compare it. My really good friend. You know, we've all heard that. I. Uh, Comparison is the thief of joy, but she adds, Comparison is the thief of joy and obedience, and I think that is so true, like when we compare, not only does it take joy away from our lives, but it also prevents us from really obeying God and what season and giftings He's called us to.
Joey Odom:What jumps out about that story, to me is one. I really love how you said this didn't cause the insecurity, but it highlighted it. I mean, this is like, what a magnifier of those things. But what's interesting is that the fact that you had been away from it, it caused it to be it seems to me like it caused it to be more jarring when you felt that, like the those feelings come in, it felt more jarring. Do you think that a lot of us? Do you think you had felt that way before? Let's think about the seasons you had been on social media. Do you think you had felt that way before and it just became a normal feeling because you were so used to it, or do you think it was a different feeling because you had been away from it?
Alyssa Bethke:That's such a good question. I think, um, no, honestly, I think I feel it all the time on social media. I have to, like, guard my heart so much, and I think it depends on my why I'm going on social media and the state of my heart, because sometimes I'll go on because I'm like, oh, I want to be inspired to decorate my house, or I need, you know, I want to hear what this pastor is saying, and I'm just so encouraged, and that's great. But then sometimes I go on because, honestly, I'm like, kind of sad, or I'm trying to numb, or I'm trying to distract myself, so I'm kind of vulnerable, but I go on and and then I come away feeling like, oh, like I'm less than and I think we have to be really careful of that in the book I talked about, you know, what really matters most is our heart, and I think a lot of times more than what we do, what we achieve, and what matters is who we're becoming. And I think a lot of times we try to stuff our emotions and neglect our heart, numb out because we're just sometimes life is too painful, or we're scared of, like, if we actually go there, what will come out? And a lot of times we go to our phones to numb out, we, you know, Netflix, whatever, or Instagram, Pinterest, and we want to escape our realities a little bit. And that can be like, the worst time for your heart to then go on and comparison just comes and just rips it apart. Man, it's so true.
Unknown:I've been moving in the direction of presence and being present and seeing the good that's all around me, because it's there, but we forget. And I think our era with our phones right now really dovetails into where I'm at personally. And it's very evident to me that it's a distraction, that I'm spending more time on this device than in real time with people that I care for and that I don't want to look back and be like, shoot. So it has been evident for a while, and Ro has been amazing, because I am one of those people that I need to not have it close. Because if it's there, these whole moderation attempts at it, these things that are part of the Apple phone where limit your limit your time, none of it really was working for me. I just needed it to be, not somewhere where I could pick it up. So that's been so helpful.
Joey Odom:We love hearing stories from the RO community. The one you just heard actually comes from our voices of aro episodes, where I sit down with ro members and they share about their stories and their lives with aro. Make sure to check out the voices of aro episodes, and if you remember who would like to share your own story with Aro, please email us at stories@goro.com you Okay, well, I want to segue into the book. I don't want, I don't want to give away all of the book for people. They people that I really would encourage again, both men and women. This is a and maybe even, maybe even women. Let's say, if you're, if you're reading this book, I would love for you to just maybe highlight, go through and highlight, and say, like, the things that really hit you. It's almost like, Gosh, I wish my husband, like, knew this about me. Because you put into words, I believe things are gonna really resonate deeply with women that they say, I wish my husband knew this about me. So that would be my encouragement in reading it. And then, you know, men and women both read it, husband and wife both read it. But wise, if you're reading it, please do highlight it and open up a discussion for your husband's in it. So you talk about this pattern in women. You talked about women hell, neglect our hearts, earn our hearts, and lose hearts, and then you need fullness of heart. So the crescendo of it we will you dive into? Will you dive into the neglecting that first one neglect. You just alluded to it, neglecting our arts. Will you tell us what that looks like? How does that show up? And then what can we do about that?
Alyssa Bethke:Yeah, it's actually, I love that you asked that because I didn't even have that language until a friend of mine, a pastor, a guy was saying, like he was just sharing something in our group of, you know, a hard season. He's like, I just know I'm neglecting my heart. And so, actually. We came from a man's perspective, and I was like, Wow, isn't that what we do? Of like, we think that what matters most is what we achieve and what we do and what we can show, what we can prove. And so we don't care for our heart. And I think, you know, it's our heart. It's like, you know, our mind, our emotions, our inner being, and that also is really hard to it's not tangible. Like, you know, you can work and you can see the fruit, you can, you know, mow your lawn, and it's like, Oh, I feel so good. That looks so good. Or I can clean my house. I'm like, Oh, that felt so good when you do inner work of your heart. Of like, why am I feeling this way? Oh, I'm really sad. What happened today that made me sad. There's not a lot of tangible fruit, so it's like, it's harder to do it, and yet I feel like we are missing so we are missing out so much if we don't do it, because we're not being whole people and whole selves, because we're neglecting our heart. And so I think just what I said before, I think we neglect our heart because we don't think that it's valuable. And then I think even if you think it's valuable, I think a lot of times, we maybe don't have language, or we're really scared, if we go there, what's going to come out. And I think for moms, I think we spend so much time and effort to hold it all together, to get the things done. Especially, I was just talking to mom who has four kids under four, and she went through a miscarriage, and it was so hard, and she's like, I just haven't even processed it, because I've been in such survival mode of like, I'm just I need to hold it together, take care of my kids, get through the day, and so we don't take time to process our lives and to really care and be curious for our heart. We just like, are on to the next thing. And I think in our culture that so values not only what we do, but also, like, no margin, no rest, like you just go, go, go. Busy, busy, busy is like successful, then we just kind of don't care for our hearts in the process.
Joey Odom:So for someone who my suspicion almost like similar to what we're talking about on social media, where you may be in the people who are always on social media may be living in what feels like a normal state of comparison and joylessness and all of that. So maybe for people who maybe are in a constant state of neglect of their heart, yeah, what? What could be some signs for people who aren't even aware of it, what could be some signs that you are neglecting your heart?
Alyssa Bethke:Yeah, I think, um so my husband started to talk to his mentor about inner work recently, and his mentors, like in his 50s, and he said, Jeff, I um, my goal is to, like, have more and more time each day to process my life. And he goes, if an emotion comes that surprises me. In a day I know that I am not processing enough, not that, not that. Like, we shouldn't feel that emotion, but we shouldn't be surprised that we're feeling that emotion because we are so aware of, you know, we're just like, spending time like, how was yesterday? What stood out to you? What was really good, what was really hard. So I thought that was really interesting, of what, why, and I, you know, being so surprised. I think also for me, what was such a sign was I was just not okay, like it was, like I was trying so hard to manage the outcomes. I started to have multiple meltdowns in a week, of like, crying in my room feeling so hopeless, so defeated, really getting impatient with my kids, angry and like not knowing what to do with all these feelings. And so I think, you know, one thing I've really learned is my whole life, I felt like there were good emotions and bad emotions, and so I tried to avoid the bad emotions. And not that I didn't struggle with anger or sadness. I just thought those should be avoided. So like, stuff down, don't talk about it, like, don't be angry. And really, I've come to learn chip Dodd has a great book called Voice of the heart that talks about emotions, that emotions are amoral, they're not good or bad, but they're actually gifts from God to help us understand what our needs are and and so, you know, it's not bad that I'm angry. I don't want it to lead to bad actions, but it's like just being like, when I get angry at my kids or at whatever traffic or something happens, it's like just taking a moment like, Okay, why am I angry right now? And I think if we never do that, then we're surprised by it, we just keep stuffing it, and then it just like, explodes onto other people, or you find yourself in your room having multiple meltdowns, like I did. So those are some of the signs I think that I think another one is. You feel numb, I think for men, you know, Jeff and John Tyson just came out of the book in the spring for men, and that was a big thing in walking life with some friends of like, just feeling numb, like no joy, not really depressed, but just like, don't feel anything. And so I think that can be a sign, too, of neglecting your heart.
Joey Odom:What was, what was some of the the work for you? What? What did that? What was that work like for you, to dig out of some of that season and to recognize it, and then maybe one to not be resigned to the fact that this is the way it's always going to be, but to have a little bit of hope that it can get better, and then to start doing that work. What did that work look like for you?
Alyssa Bethke:Yeah, I think I've learned so much that to do the inner work like it is so worth it, that when and if you think about it, if like older people that you look up to in your life, you know those that have processed their life and done the inner work are are very soft, gentle, empathetic, kind like, those are the people you want to be, the people that have not processed their life and done the inner work are usually, like, really prideful, really angry, like, and I just want to be an old person who's really kind and gentle and loving, like, I don't want to be that old person that's lost her filter and, like, just so critical, you know, so but some of the things I did was I invited older women in my life. I think for so long, I was so scared to be honest about the realities of my life and how I was actually doing, honest about my feelings, and because I was afraid of shame, like I thought, like, oh, they may think, like, just have so much judgment, like, I can't believe you struggle with that, you know, like, you can do so much better. And instead of, I welcomed older people in my life, and I would every time I was like, melting down or having a hard time, I would voice memo them and like, Okay, this is and welcome them into my reality. I'm really struggling right now. This just happened. I lost it on it, child, I you know, I feel so hopeless. I feel like this isn't gonna change, and to welcome in them, like loving me through it, empathizing, validating, but then also like not fixing it, but like giving me hope, so that was huge to be known and to be honest. I think for women, especially, it can be really hard to be honest, because we're so busy taking care of everyone else, and we feel like you know it, we should just be able to just be able to hold it all together. But really we we need to be, if we stuff those things it. There's a study coming, there's a study that came out. This is just Jeff knows all the like, people and statistics and stuff, but um, that doctors can predict. They did a couple like, what do you call it? Study groups, they can predict if someone will have breast cancer, or is it ALS, as ALS, by their niceness and meaning, meaning, obviously, we want to be kind people, but like, if they stuff their honest emotions and are so nice trying to please people, they can predict that they will have those two things, which is wild. And I just say that, you know, I don't I just say that, of like, we are integrated selves, mind, body, soul, and we need to be honest in kindness, but like, honest with ourselves, honest with our spouse, honest with God, of like, our disappointments and things that are hard and and then find like healing and hope and in it, you know? And so anyway, so welcoming in older women, I started to slow down a lot. So I had called a mentor, crying like and instead of giving me a list of you need to do this, or try this, or here's a formula. She said, Alyssa, you need to take a season of tending to your heart. And I was homeschooling the kids at the time. She's like, they will be okay, even if you don't homeschool the rest of the year. Well, you know, your greatest gift that you can give your kids is your transformed self more than like them, you know, graduating second grade and so I tried to really, like slow down every afternoon. I would go for a walk without my phone for 30 minutes, and I would process the day I would I would ask, Lord God, Where have I seen you? Present with me today and give thanks for you know, the good things, the memories, the sweet moments, the places I see him working, and I would ask, Where have I not seen your presence? And usually that was always a time to be like, Oh, I was distracted, or I was worried, or I was believing a lie, and to be able to confess that. And that really started the process of me doing inner work, slowing down, connecting to God. Um, and that was really a game changer. Another one that's more recent, that we did in seminary, um, was called a weekly reflection. And so once a week, I sit down with my journal, and even if you're not a journaler, that's totally okay, you can just bullet list it, and I write four sections about the week. I say what I was glad about, what I was sad, about what I'm dreaming and what I'm dreading, and it's been so helpful to take time to look back at the week, to give thanks for the things I'm glad about, to like, have hope for the things I'm dreaming of. Whether it's like, Well, I'm excited to get my hair cut next week, or I'm excited for that trip to notice the things I'm dreading. And it's been like, oh, okay, no wonder why I'm feeling anxious. I'm dreading this thing coming up. You know, what do I need to do about that? God, where do you what do you want to speak to me? And then, what am I sad about? And I feel like that gives me space to grieve. Of like, wow, that moment was really hard. You know, of course, you were sad about that, like, that's a sad thing. And so even that, like, it's such a simple thing, it could take someone five minutes. Sometimes it takes me, like, an hour, because I'll really sit in that and grieve or be excited, but just taking time to, like, process your life and notice and care for your heart.
Joey Odom:I like that exercise a lot. We say this four things again,
Alyssa Bethke:yeah, so sad, yep, glad, dream and dread.
Joey Odom:What I what I would like, especially about that, is in sitting down to do that you have automatically given yourself permission to be sad. You've given yourself permission to feel these feelings of gladness. You've given yourself permission to dream big, even though things maybe you wouldn't even say to somebody else. And you've given yourself permission to dread stuff, like, I'm dreading going out to, you know, to to breakfast with this person next week, like, that's okay. Like you've given yourself the space to to to feel all of those feelings. What a valuable thing you can do for yourself is just have the permission to feel those feelings. I really, really like that. And I was thinking about, have you seen inside out too yet?
Alyssa Bethke:No, my kids have seen it yet. Oh, it's fantastic.
Joey Odom:Eliza, you have to see it. But when you were talking about, like, the, like, the the value of not avoiding the emotions. I mean, spoiler alert, by the way, like, like, they were like Joy was trying to help, like, avoid the, the feelings of sadness. We've made no feelings of anxiety, and when, like, each of these have this place for for you, and you can't just dodge those things. So it's just such a valuable thing, yeah, you got to feel it. And you have to, you know, in terms of doing the work. My my daughter yesterday, I'm gonna, I'm gonna out her here, when she was talking about her Spanish class, and I was said, Gianna, you were so gifted with language like I want you to continue on with the Spanish. So granted, she said, as a 14 year old girl, would, she goes, Dad, I want to know Spanish, but I don't want to learn Spanish. Yeah? So, right? So we want to have a full heart, we want to have all the things, but, yeah, you got to kind of do the work in the meantime, right?
Alyssa Bethke:Yeah. So true.
Joey Odom:Alyssa, I think I feel like we could go on forever. We are, by the way, we're through the first section of the book. In this conversation I'm going to make, we're going to make everybody go buy it now, because you do need to buy it when doing it all is undoing you. It is in stores. Now it's the airing of this show. I have just one last question as we're wrapping up people for the person like, maybe this all sounds great, and maybe it sounds a little bit overwhelming, but what is other than buying the book like, what is just your teeniest baby step forward for people who are listening, who may say, like, Okay, this, this kind of hits for me, yeah,
Alyssa Bethke:when they feel like they're being undone. Um, two, I guess, two things, I think. One, you know, for so long, I feared this. I feared coming undone, because that feels so uncomfortable. It feels like all controls lost, like I don't want to be a mess and and I have responsibilities I have to do, and so like no thank you. And I've realized that actually, when we come undone, when we feel like fragmented, we feel like life is chaotic and we feel broken, that actually is such an invent invitation to then do the work of like, okay, actually admitting maybe my pace is too fast. I need to slow down. I need to put margin. I am not caring for my heart. I I need hope in this area. I need to invite other people into my life that those are all things that bring healing and wholeheartedness and so instead of fearing it, it's a constant invitation to, like, to wholeness and and, you know, ultimately, to God. And like connecting your heart to God. And so I think just changing that perspective of, if you're feeling like, wow, this hits really home, to not feel shame about that, but just asking, Okay, what's the next step? Like, I want to be whole. I want to be healed. I don't want to live fragmented and like, people just get pieces of me. Um, and then I would recommend putting your phone away, like, saying, like, all day, but maybe just in the morning or in the afternoon or at night, putting it away for 10 minutes and just asking yourself, like, how was today, you know, did I get angry? Anywhere? Was I sad? What was the really sweet moments? And then being curious with your heart, like, Why was I sad? Like, and then just being really generous with yourself, like, oh yeah, I can see why that was. That was hurtful. Or, you know, and I think just connecting with your heart becoming self aware, and hopefully, ultimately, to give that to God. Of like, hey, Lord, here's my heart. Like, what do you have to say about that? I want to know your truth. I want you know. Arrhenius said years, years and years and years ago that the glory of God is a man or woman fully alive. And so that's his heart for you. He wants to be he wants men and women to be fully alive, not dead and not asleep, to their hearts and longings and in life. And I think our phones distract us so much that it takes away the joy of the moment. It distracts us and so to just put it away and at moments and be present and kind of check in with your own self.
Joey Odom:That's wonderful. You know, I agree with that. You're just speaking our language now. Well, Alyssa, thank you. I want people to go buy the book with doing it all is undoing you, and people go listen to the forming women podcast. Yeah, please go listen to that as well. It's fantastic. Elizabeth key, thank you so much. Thank you for putting bringing the joy to this podcast just like it is in your name. Thank you for thank you for joining us the only art podcast.
Alyssa Bethke:Thanks so much. Joey,
Joey Odom:Hey. Is one action item that I want to take you back to. And we said this early on is when we were talking about how good it feels to hear the things that you're good at, and we probably undervalue our superpowers and things that we do. Well, we hear those things because somebody has told us those things. So I would encourage you is be the person that's telling others those things. So when you see something good in somebody to use again, Justin Wim earley's words on encouragement seeing something good in somebody else that they should continue to do, why don't we encourage this week? So maybe today you've listened to this episode, why don't you think of somebody, whether you run into them and you can say it, or maybe shoot somebody a text, give them a call, think of something that somebody's doing, that they should continue to do, and tell it to them. And if we continue to do that, I bet you everybody would start to feel so much more confident in those strengths that they have, those those superpowers they have, and they would begin to exercise those things, and I really do think that would make the world a better place as we do that. So why don't you find somebody to encourage today? Thank you so much for joining us today on this week's episode of the RO podcast. We can't wait to see you again next week. The RO podcast is produced and edited by the team at Palm Tree podco. Special thanks to Emily miles and Caitlin Krings for media and digital support and to executive producers Anthony Palmer of palm tree podco And the prince of the low country, tides himself, rich dinellon of aro you.