HEATHER EWING: The CRE RUNdown

Ep. 72 Pivoting with Purpose: How Ashley Cao Built A Career in Lending

• Heather Ewing, CCIM • Season 1 • Episode 72

Share episode
Heather Ewing:

Welcome to Heather Ewing, the CRE rundown. I am your host, Heather Ewing, and from beautiful California, I have none other than Ashley Cow to join us. She is the director of Old Capital Lending. Ashley, welcome.

Ashley Cao:

Thank you, Heather, for having me.

Heather Ewing:

Yeah, I'm so glad we were able to connect. This is fantastic. So, to get going, let's share a little bit with our audience how you got into lending.

Ashley Cao:

That is a good question. And so I don't come from a banking or finance background. I actually come from a marketing background. Um, and so I went to school for marketing, did marketing for about five years. And then um this was, you know, 2008, 2009, when uh there's not a lot of opportunities available at that time. And so I was I was doing marketing for a couple companies, and then I decided I wanted to pivot and figure out what else I can do with the knowledge that I had already. And um one of my friends uh at the time, or it's actually a friend slash, he was interviewing me for another position. And he's like, What why don't you become a a recruiter? And I was like, What is a recruiter? I have no idea what that what that is. And he's like, Oh, we recruit people to come work at companies. And he's like, Your skills are pretty transferable because you did marketing. And so I um was open to it. I explored it. I ended up joining an agency, um, and I recruited for a lot of tech companies out here in the Bay Area. Um, and then I eventually went to Tesla and worked for Tesla for about four years as a technical recruiter, and then um made the leap over to being another technical recruiter at uh Google. Um, so I was at Google for about four years. Uh, I was in their self-driving division, so it was called Waymo. Um and so throughout those years, I was like, okay, this is fun. I was helping people find jobs and um, you know, working with four great companies. And then um, throughout that career, I saw a lot of layoffs that happened. And so as a recruiter, I'm recruiting people, but we're we're letting go of people and then we're filling them with other people. And so it was really hard to see that because a lot of the people that I recruited became friends and then they had to get laid off or whatever for whatever reason. And um that was kind of like a wake-up call to me as far as well, my position is also replaceable. And so I decided that I needed to figure out another backup plan as far as like where where should I go or what can I do if I had gotten laid off today? And that's kind of when real estate started coming into the picture. And so I started investing in real estate. And at that time I was burring a lot of properties in the Midwest and uh eventually moved into multifamily and invested in passively into multifamily. And uh I wanted to learn more about what a general partner does in multifamily. And um, so one of the guys that I was investing with, I asked him, I was like, How did you learn how to do this? And he said that he invested passively into somebody else's deal and asked if he can go on the due diligence trips with those guys and learn and just kind of be a fly on the wall. And so I told him, I was like, when I'm ready, I'm gonna do that to you. And so like I did that. I learned by going on these trips with him and I invested with him as well. So I was kind of paying for my own education and investing at the same time. And then um during one of those trips, this is the long story of how I got into lending. And so during one of those trips, the lender that he was working with came out to walk the property with us. And so his name is Paul. And so he is the founder or one of the owners of Old Capital Lending, the company I work for now. And we met and we became friends. And this is throughout my my tech career, so I was still working in tech. And um we became friends, and you know, I would always just kind of throw deals at him of like, hey, I'm looking at this deal. Can you tell me what you think from an underwriter perspective and all that stuff? And um so, you know, fast forward to 2023, I got laid off. And so I always tell people I got paid to leave. And so it was a it was like kind of like um uh I knew it was gonna happen eventually, but it was still shocking when it happened. Um, and so I got laid off, and um uh, but then I had all this real estate that I was buying throughout the years, and so I was like, okay, well, I have some runway now to figure out what's my next move. And I had bumped into Paul maybe like a month after literally a month after I got laid off. And um he was like, Hey, like I heard tech's laying off pretty heavily. Are you okay? And I said, actually, I got laid off, so I'm just trying to figure out my next move. And um he's like, Oh, why don't you just come work with me? And so he and I told him the same thing. I was like, I I don't come from banking, I don't come from finance. Um, but he's like, Oh, I can teach you that. Like those are things that's just math, right? Um and so he's like, you know, you have a good skill set of just being able to connect people with solutions, right? That's what I did with engineers. They were like, Oh, I'm looking for a new job, I try to find them a new position, or vice versa, where um and it we're hiring for our team and I have to go source engineers. And so for what I do in lending right now, that's that's pretty much what we do. We're a commercial mortgage broker. And so, Heather, if you came to me and you said, Hey, Ashley, I'm looking for a loan on this project, then I would work within my network to find a solution for you. So, um, so that's the long story of how we how I got into lending. But it was all, I would say being open to taking pivots and then also um just making myself uh putting myself into rooms with people that I wanted to learn from and um and making myself, I guess, valuable to them. So bringing value to them really allowed me to open, uh, to have doors open for me uh to get into different spaces.

Heather Ewing:

And I think you approached that really well, you know, kind of as you're saying, of one identifying the trend, right? Seeing all the layoffs and instead of just thinking of like that's really painful for people, of realizing that at some point, right? Like you had had a really steady and long run, but also realizing at some point things are gonna shift in that sense too. So I commend you for looking into it ahead of time versus when everything hits the wall, if you want to say. And I think too, something that you did really well is the relationships. And I think a lot of times when people are newer to commercial real estate or even positions that are 100% sales, right? I think they are so focused on this is what I have, this is what I need, and check the box. And it doesn't work that way. And especially in today's environment, I think the relationships and the depth of them are even more important. And it's it's a big turnoff when someone comes to you just to get something and you don't even know them. Right. It's it's kind of shocking and off-putting, right? Because in your mind, you kind of file of like, that's not the type of person that I I want to spend time with really investing anything into, because it's pretty clear of what drives them and their initiatives. But it's definitely a great arena. And I love too that you put yourself in those uncomfortable growth positions because I think so many people think you do one thing, and then suddenly you have this new life, where as you pointed out, that it was a series of things. You started with the houses, you got bigger, you got into the multifamily, surrounding yourself with people that had the knowledge. And since you provided value, I think they also felt like you were like, right? Like in like energy. And that goes a really long way because then there's a mutual respect, which you really have to have. And I think I can only imagine you were a great student in that capacity also of listening and providing value and also running with it, which then is how you got your your position at old capital lending. And so that's that's terrific. And I love that you broke it down because so many people just hear A to Z and they don't understand the number of years and all of the different iterations, the kind of growth levels that you went through. Speaking of which, did you ever find a time where you're just like, oh my gosh, this is too much? Like, I might just like, what was I thinking? I'm gonna wash my hands of this, or did you not experience that?

Ashley Cao:

Oh, plenty of times for sure. And it even comes down to like my first rental property that I bought. Um, I think it was like nine months after I got that property, one of the units caught on fire. And I was like, And so it was like a it was engulfed in flames, like it was over. Right.

Heather Ewing:

Wow.

Ashley Cao:

And so um, so they couldn't find the root cause because the fire was too big and they couldn't like everything was scorched, and uh but unfortunately there was so it was a duplex, and so one unit had caught on fire, and uh luckily nobody was home except they had um a couple, so they had a dog, which I approved for, and then I guess that dog had nine puppies, and so wow, and so well, obviously that was like violating the lease, but um right, um, so the assumption is that maybe one of the dogs got into chewed a wire, they found some wax on the floor, so maybe there was a candle that was knocked over, or something. I don't have no idea, but um, luckily the the silver lining there was that insurance covered it. Um, but it was just like a terrifying, like, okay, cool, I'm a real estate investor now, and then all of a sudden it's like the worst case scenario that people always like.

Heather Ewing:

Oh my gosh, yeah, that would that would definitely set you aback a bit.

Ashley Cao:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then um, you know, I think there's always a a few setbacks throughout my investing career. Um, but I think it's just um uh there was a book I read a long time ago. I forgot who it was by. I think it's called Everything, Everything Is Figure Outtable. And so um Marie Folio? I think so. I think so. And she she talks about radio and oh yeah, yeah. Um so I read that book, and that really that's something I always tell myself. Like when something happens, it's like, oh, we can figure it out. Like there it's it's always figure outable. And so um, so that's when that fire happened, I freaked out for a day, and then I said, Okay, like we can figure this out. And so I think going through that helps me just realize that nothing is the end of the world, essentially.

Heather Ewing:

So Right, right, kind of like the good will not always be there, just as the bad will not always be there. Correct, yeah. What would you say are a couple of tools or resources? So I'd say one was was that book, right? Everything is figure outable. What's maybe another technical or something else that you learned when you went from the, you know, the position of owning the single family residential to the multifamily? What helped you to step up in that investment grade?

Ashley Cao:

Yeah, and I think it is the the mentorship. And so, like aligning myself with people who are 50 steps ahead of me. And so um the um person that I mentioned earlier who I told him I would I would do the same thing to him, his name is Tony, and I met him through a meetup and invested passively with him on a couple deals because I just liked the way that he was very transparent and how he operated. Um and so if it wasn't for him being so open to sharing the knowledge, then I don't think I would have gotten to where I am now without the the um the mentorship and the guidance that I that I got through him. So yeah.

Heather Ewing:

So I think it's gonna take a lot longer, right?

Ashley Cao:

For sure, yeah. And so um, and I had like this like when I first started investing, I did do one of those like in mentorship groups that you give them $40,000 and you know they uh they're like, okay, we're gonna teach you how to do it, but it sometimes it's it's it's also self-driven, but I think the mentorship program that I was a part of wasn't very like well established, and so that was like a learning lesson for me. And so I think investing with Tony was more so like I'm paying to get education because he's open to sharing, but then I'm also bringing value by investing into his deals and trying to help him on his deals and stuff, so yeah, yeah, definitely reciprocal.

Heather Ewing:

Yeah, I agree. Some of those bigger groups, there can be advantages, but then there can also be areas where you just get lost in it, unfortunately, which is uh unfortunate. But uh, what would you say are your next steps for investing? What uncomfortable positions are you putting yourself in to grow and expand at this stage?

Ashley Cao:

Yeah. So um, so I still invest in multifamily. Uh I'm a general partner on a couple deals. Um, and then um most of my investments are more on the limited partner side, so passively. Um so the thing that I'm really focused on now is education uh from a lender perspective. So, you know, one thing that I really liked and why I was so open to joining old capital was um, you know, we're not necessarily not just a lender, we try to educate as much as we can. And I feel like from a lender perspective, we're not we're not trying to raise money from you or anything like that. And uh we just want to make sure that people who do get loans are successful so that they can continue to grow their multifamily career. And so I think the one thing that I like about Old Capital is that we do a lot of education. So uh we do like these field trips in Dallas where you spend a day with us, we do like a multifamily one-on-one classroom style in the morning, and then we put you on a charter bus in the afternoon and we go tour different class properties. And so um, yeah, so I really like that. And I think there's there's this new wave of multifamily investors coming. And just like me, where I had a mentor or somebody help me get into the space in the capacity that I did, I want to be able to help people do the same. And so that's that's a new muscle for me for sure, because I'm not much, I've never taught anything. And so, like helping people and educating people is something new and exciting for me that definitely makes me uncomfortable, but something I'm excited to learn about.

Heather Ewing:

So that's terrific. And don't you think my experience in talking to so many people, both investors, developers, tenants, landlords, you name it in commercial real estate, that a lot of people worked really, really hard. And it just seems like there's a lot of really great people that when you ask them, they are happy to help, you know, as long as that's the reciprocal kind of um energy that's being put out there and a true and genuine desire, and you know, the actions equate to it too. So I think that's really neat.

Ashley Cao:

Yeah, definitely.

Heather Ewing:

So jumping into a slightly different topic, AI, something that we hear about, we're inundated with it time and time again. How do you see it transforming or working with commercial real estate?

Ashley Cao:

Ooh, that's a good topic. So um I I moderated an AI panel at a conference at our old capital conference a few months or a couple of months ago. Um perfect timing. Yeah, so it's perfect timing. And I feel like we're still at like the tip of the iceberg of AI. Like it just came about in the last couple of years. So I feel like right now we're not leveraging it to its full capability. Um, I think people are just querying Chat GBT to you know clean up paragraphs and stuff like that. Um but in commercial real estate, the areas that I see it where I use it personally is uh one is underwriting. So uh there's a platform called Cash Flow Portal. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. Um, but they there's two sides to it. One side is for general partners to help manage uh investor um relations and um investments and stuff like that. So LPs can log into the platform and um you know sign their documents to commit to to an investment. Um and then the other half of it is uh they're doing an AI underwriting tool where instead of you going into a spreadsheet, you're um uploading your rent roll, your trailing 12-month financial statement, and you're operating or the OM into this platform and it parses it out for you. And so nice. Yeah, so it saves a whole bunch of time. Obviously, there's still uh kinks that they're working through, but it just saves so much time because obviously going through the rent roll and going through the T12 is very time consuming, and translating it over to a spreadsheet takes a lot of time. So, you know, an hour of underwriting is now maybe 10-15 minutes because I'm not having to go through the uh translation of data over to another document. So I like which is extremely helpful. Yeah, so you can kind of move a little bit quicker with that. Um, so there's that, and then a lot of the folks that I've talked with, I don't use it personally, but I've heard a lot about Elise AI. Um, and it's like kind of a tool for property management um to help you um uh get to from a prospect to maybe a showing quicker. So they're using like it's kind of like a chat bot, but I think there's a voice agent to it too, so they can take phone calls on your behalf um and then book you to come and and um uh uh come and view the property or or whatnot. So uh it kind of bypasses that time it takes to get to a showing. Right. Um but I think the um somebody I talked to a couple weeks ago, he's like, well, with AI, you still need HI, so human intelligence. And so there's still some kinks that are working out with that. Because um, as an example, on Elise, if somebody gets taken from prospect to a tenant in one day, uh from an AI perspective, they're like, Oh, we did our job, but from an HI perspective, you're like, This sounds suspicious. Like, is this a scam? So um I think there's a lot of different things that are coming out with that. Um, and then I actually talked to a friend uh a couple days ago. He's uh an AI engineer, and so he's trying to build out a lot more. Tools for the commercial real estate space. And so right now his focus is on investment sales, so like the brokers, and trying to figure out how to kind of optimize their work. And so one example was how do you create an offering memorandum or a marketing package quicker, right? Instead of you going into like what if you can just input data and pictures and it just makes it beautiful for you. Um so there's things like that, and uh he's also I'm working with him to see if they can add some elements for lenders where maybe we can query, like, okay, show me the last uh years of mature maturing loans in Dallas, Texas, and you know, give me more specific data that's usable and I can share with you know clients and stuff like that. So yeah, so I think it's really interesting where AI is going. And you know, the fear is always like, Are you are we gonna be smarter or dumber?

Heather Ewing:

Right, right, because are people gonna rely on it too heavily? And you know, that's where I just I'm a curious person by nature, and so at times I can't help myself. I'll just plug in different things, you know, to see what triple net leases are or what cap rate this is selling for and that type of thing. And some things are right, and some things are so way off where it's kind of like, well, it's kind of reassuring in the sense of you know, we as the brokers have that information and a lot of it's not published, so yeah, you know, some are reported up to the coastars and different things, but there's a lot locally that just isn't. Um it's it's all kind of personal preference and and the firm as well, but it is interesting. So shifting years once again, from AI to stress, right? It's commercial real estate's a busy arena. Obviously, the climate of the world is is up and down. What do you do to balance the day out?

Ashley Cao:

Um, so I would say just get moving, so not being so tied to my desk. And so I like to, I have two dogs. So my dogs always remind me that it's time for a walk. And so um, so I definitely get out and try to walk a few times a day. Um I don't run marathons like you, but you're you're your life of any kind I say is fantastic. Yeah, so I just try to get moving and uh try to set some boundaries for myself. So um I think uh working in tech, I'm so used to working long hours. And um and so now I try to set a boundary where it's like, okay, by 5 p.m. I'm not doing uh work-related things, and I give myself some time to to do other hobbies and stuff like that. And so um I try to get outside and do as much of walking and just you know, getting um as much fresh air as possible. And then I also love music, so I actually I DJ and so I that's right, yes, because I loved your one song.

Heather Ewing:

I was like, oh my gosh, you need to send more of these, it'd be perfect for my my training, yeah.

Ashley Cao:

Yeah, so I like to DJ, and so that's definitely um an outlet for me, like a creative outlet for me to de-stress and relax and stuff.

Heather Ewing:

So and how did you get into that, Ashley?

Ashley Cao:

Um, I went to like a concert a long time ago, and it was a DJ that was like opening for an artist, and the DJ's job is to get the crowd in the mood and get excited for the artist to come out, and it was so cool to just see how they were able to, I guess, command a crowd, right? And bring this energy to the crowd. And so I was like, that's so cool. And so I just like started looking into it, and I had a friend that was a DJ, and so he like taught me a couple things, and um, so I was into it for a couple of years, like dabbled in it, and then when the pandemic hit, I went deep into like learning how to DJ. I was on YouTube every day, practicing every day. Um, and then you know, eventually after COVID, I started playing at venues and stuff like that.

Heather Ewing:

So yeah, that is great. And I need to make sure too that I get that link because then we'll include it in the show notes.

Ashley Cao:

Yeah, sure. Thank you.

Heather Ewing:

Definitely. So my final and the hard-hitting question for today is what does living fully mean to you?

Ashley Cao:

Oh, I love that. Um, I think living fully is being as present as possible um in whatever you do. And so um I think time is the most valuable thing. And so being just really thoughtful and intentional about time is fulfill fulfillment, fulfillment to me. Um, and so like uh I my mom passed away a few years ago from cancer. I'm sorry. Yeah. And so um that when she first got diagnosed, that was like a wake-up call to me where it's like, hey, time is very limited. And so like being intentional about spending your time with the people that you care about or whatever you you think is important to you is is so important to me. And and um, I think there was um a a comment or was it a I think it was a podcast with Jesse Itzler, and he talked about um, you know, uh I my parents live across the United States or on the other side of the United States, and I see them for their birthdays and the holidays, and that's a total of you know, twice a year. And so like I don't see them 365 days a year. So um, you know, he just made a point that it's like, you know, even though they're they're around for 365 days a year, it doesn't mean that you actually see them. And so that was like just a reminder to me that, hey, like the time that you spend is more important than just knowing that they're around for the the next couple of years or whatever it is. So right.

Heather Ewing:

And I think I saw that same one because I think he had calculated a number that he would only be able to see his parents essentially, whatever this finite number was, if he visited them twice annually or something, and then he kind of extracted it out to how long they might live, which I agree completely. When you see it in that sense, you realize that it is finite and um you know, similar to you for different reasons, though. I lost my mom when I was long young. And it also just kind of set for me of like there aren't guarantees that you know, some people might live to the right, you know, 80s, 90s, and beyond, and others won't. And so you really do have to cherish life and also be intentional about how you spend your time and and who you surround yourself with because there aren't any guarantees, yeah, for sure. So yes, so leaving it on a bright note, yes. What do you intend for 2026? You're a woman of many talents, yeah. Um is there something that's whispering to your heart and soul that you are interested about for 26, or are you feeling uh I think there's two things.

Ashley Cao:

So one is so I'm part of this community. Um, it's like um a community of mostly Asians that are in real estate. It's called S-A-R-E or SAR, um, and it stands for Subtle Asian Real Estate, and it's a 25,000-member group that was, you know, formed a few years ago, and I'm the co-lead for the women's division of it. So one of my personal passions is helping more women, especially, get into real estate um because um I think it's still a man's business for the most part. And so um, I really want to just focus on helping more people, more women get into the space. Um, and so I have one one of my co-leads, uh, we're working on just kind of building out what what else can we do in 2026? So I'm super excited for that. Um that will be exciting, yeah, yeah. So uh, and especially in commercial real estate, I feel like the first conference that I went to in commercial real estate, I was like the only woman, and then I was the only Asian woman. And so I was like, where are all the ladies at? And so I'm I'm glad to see more. I mean, I love that you're in the space, and I love meeting other women that are in the space, and so um, yeah, I'm just excited to see more women get into commercial real estate, especially because it's a great arena, and I think you know, the nice thing that prepared me for it was that ever since I graduated from college, I've uh it's always been me and the guys, yeah.

Heather Ewing:

Right? So I graduated college in 1997, so even though it was a completely different arena, it was operations manufacturing, so it was overseas by toolings, supply chain, planning, all of that. So it was me and the guys for 11 years, yeah. And then, you know, I tried more soulful things and then ended up in commercial real estate then, and and it's um it is funny how time flies. And you I've gotten used to being like the only woman in the room, or very few, but I agree, it does feel like there's more coming. And the thing I like about it too is that it's a great arena, and I think it's one of those when you've when you've really dug into a niche and understand the asset that you're on an even playing field in that sense, I feel. And I think too, I love that you're helping to educate women in the knowledge because the more you know about something, the better you can do both with your time, your energy, your financial resources, and otherwise. And let's let's face it, you know, he who has the keys to the bank is the one that makes the decisions. And that's why that's how it is in your life, and that's how it is in mine. And I think helping others to see that it is possible. And it's just a matter of steps and getting up when you fall down and continuing to learn and grow and pay it forward is how the magic happens.

Ashley Cao:

Yeah, definitely.

Heather Ewing:

Yeah, perfect. All right. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for joining me. It was a true joy. Where can people connect with you?

Ashley Cao:

Um, I'm on all socials. So my Instagram handle is underscore ash flow. So it's like cash flow without the C. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn, so Ashley Cow, um, I think is my LinkedIn URL or whatever it is. So perfect.

Heather Ewing:

And I will link all of that on the show notes. So thank you so much for joining me, Ashley. I enjoyed it.

Ashley Cao:

Thanks, Eather.