Mythic U

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Modern Mythic Tales

• Karen Foglesong and Erin Branham • Season 3 • Episode 8

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Join us as we take a look at the mythic metaphorical goodness of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We discuss the hoped for, then canceled, Buffy the Vampire Slayer reboot, directed by Chloe Zhao. After our disappointment of that terrible news we take a look at the original Buffy series' cultural impact, including its influence on other series and creators. The conversation also explores the thematic depth of the original series, focusing on Buffy's journey from a reluctant hero to a mature adult, her relationships, and the symbolic significance of her battles. We touch on the show's exploration of adulthood, intimacy, and the struggle with societal expectations, emphasizing its enduring relevance and influence and taking a look at the feminist and inclusive themes of Buffy. Buffy's journey is a metaphor for autonomy and breaking societal norms, and Buffy's impact on female empowerment and the struggle against patriarchal structures means its mythic themes continue to resonate today.


SHOW NOTES

Why was the “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” reboot “new Sunnydale” canceled? - NME article

How Buffy the Vampire Slayer Redefined TV Storytelling - The Atlantic

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Myth, Metaphor, and Morality - book by Mark Fields

Passion of the Nerd Season One Analysis of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - search his playlists for subsequent seasons


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Karen Foglesong:

Hi everybody. This is Karen and Erin here with you today.

Erin Branham:

Hey!

Karen Foglesong:

Hey! We want to let you know that we keep trying to touch our Mythic U podcast on current events, and then we keep getting thwarted. So this one is about Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Erin, you're going to explain to us what happened.

Erin Branham:

Yes, so as Karen says, We've been trying to get with the times do really interesting things. We recorded an episode on Neil Gaiman's The Sandman to go along with the Sandman second season. And then

Karen Foglesong:

And then, and then!

Erin Branham:

Bad news occurred. We had to re so we had to record a whole other episode to try to intro the episode that we had. And it has happened again. We did a beautiful episode on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which we wanted to align with the reboot, which was supposed to come out this spring of or summer of 2026 I think, and it has been canceled. Ah, it currently is dead in the water.

Karen Foglesong:

Because of a boy too, right? So a boy!

Erin Branham:

Right. And so we're sad about that. Very sad about that, because it was Buffy, via Chloe Zhao, who is director that we really like, and for whom Buffy was super important. And they recorded a pilot, and right as they were finishing up and getting ready to put it together. The Hulu, which was producing it, dropped it. And apparently, according to Sarah Michelle Gellar, who played Buffy the Vampire Slayer, there was an executive who was on the team who said that everybody was really supportive and was very into it. But there was one executive who was on the team kept very proudly announcing that Buffy hadn't really - the original Buffy had really not been for him, and he had never he had never finished the whole series, and that was the executive who pulled the plug. So we're very sad to hear that the reboot is not happening. Because I was super stoked for sure about Buffy, directed by Chloe Zhao. That would have been amazing,

Karen Foglesong:

and to have to have Geller be a part of it too. That, that, yeah, I mean -

Erin Branham:

Absolutely, she was coming back. It was going to be really good. But at the moment, it is not occurring. However, there are searching for options for it, to see if anybody else wants to pick it up. Because it's my understanding, is the pilot was filmed. Actually, what I heard about it was the pilot was filmed, they turned it in, and the feedback was that they had not shot enough coverage, which Yeah, yeah. is where you do extra shots of the scenes from different angles And they're like, You need to go back and do other shots. And she and all this, which is not like Chloe Zhao is an expert director. She's been nominated twice, I think, for Academy Awards. She just was nominated for Best Director in this year's Academy Awards. So she turned in the shots, like, I feel confident, she turned in the shots that she meant to turn in. was like, that's a strategy people use so that they can defy the director's vision and use those extra shots to cut together an episode that looks differently than what the director intended.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

And so my understanding was she was like, I don't really want to do that. And then they were like, Oh, gee, really? And now we're canceled. Yeah, it's really. And as it says, it was one guy and the irony, or not, the irony the on the noseness -

Karen Foglesong:

The on the noseness of it, yes!

Erin Branham:

Of one dude canceling the Buffy reboot. Buffy the feminist icon.

Karen Foglesong:

It's so bad. It's so anti Buffy.

Erin Branham:

I know.

Karen Foglesong:

Buffy is about shared feminine power, you know, and I don't know. I don't know. It kind of makes sense to me. I was a little surprised that during the current regime that Buffy could be uplifted anyway, because this is really about white boys right now, and that's not what Buffy is about. So

Erin Branham:

Very true. So anyway, we just wanted to tell you that before you jump into the episode, it will have mention of the reboot, which we were very excited about, but it's not happening. But the rest of the episode is discussing the original Buffy, the Vampire Slayer, and the great mythic resonances in the storytelling there that has made it such an iconic series. So we hope you enjoy it and have a good time.

Karen Foglesong:

And remember you guys go out there and tell the world that you want it. If you want Buffy back, tell the world you want it. That is how Buffy works. You vote together, and you topple the power regime that you're aiming towards, right? So -

Erin Branham:

Very true. There are fan campaigns going on. There's definitely buzz out there, and you can be a part of it.

Karen Foglesong:

Go be a part. Thanks for listening. Hi everybody. Welcome back to Mythic U. I'm Karen Foglesong.

Erin Branham:

And I'm Erin Branham. This week we are doing a modern mythic tales look at Buffy the Vampire Slayer, in honor of the premiere of Buffy the Vampire Slayer new Sunnydale, which will be premiering in the spring. We record these somewhat ahead. That new Sunnydale pilot is going to be directed by Chloe Zhao, which is very exciting. She's an indie director that I really love. She's currently in theaters because, as I said we're doing this little ahead, with Hamnet. And also did The RIder, Nomadland and Eternals, and it is going to be executive produced by the one and only Dolly Parton.

Karen Foglesong:

Wow!

Erin Branham:

So we wanted to take a look at the original Buffy, the Vampire Slayer series. Karen, you actually introduced me to Buffy. I mean, I had heard about it around and about, but you were the person who watched it, who told, like, who told me, you really need to see this.

Karen Foglesong:

That's amazing. For once it's flipped, huh? To intro to culturally iconic programming. Yeah. So I was turned on to it by another friend, and I don't like those kind of vampiric romances, so I resisted for a while, but once I realized the strength of the characters and the meat of the stories I was in there, I was hooked. And then I felt like you should see it too, because I had good stories.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, we're both just like a little bit too old to have quite been Buffy's original kind of target audience. It is that originally, you know, it starts off, it's set in high school. It works on the concept of high school is hell. And I think I remember, like we were like 26, 27 when this came out.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

I did see the original movie. So originally, Buffy was a very poorly reviewed 1992 movie.

Karen Foglesong:

Oh, my God!

Erin Branham:

That flopped at the box office.,

Karen Foglesong:

Yes, but Donald Sutherland was in it, right?

Erin Branham:

Donald Sutherland, yes, Donald Sutherland was in it. I did see that. I was not impressed. The concept got a second life as a TV series from 1997 to 2003. It was basically a low budget take on horror tropes, there was a whole kinds of metaphors exploring growing up and the angst of it all.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

But through a lot of thematic richness, it also explores a number of Jungian psychological concepts of individuation of the personality. So it ends up having these kind of mythic resonances, and that's what we're always looking for when we are talking about a modern mythic tale.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

Because Buffy is so dense and so layered as well as so entertaining, it is a true cult classic. It has a very intense group of a small group of very intense fans. It's extremely well known and influential to a dedicated but not huge group, right? However, many of them are creators themselves, and they cite Buffy as a major influence. For instance, shows that followed, such as Smallville, Supernatural, The Boys, which is currently on now, Vampire Diaries, Veronica Mars, Wynonna Earp like literally, the creators of every single one of those shows has said, Well, I was inspired by Buffy.

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

Stranger Things, which is in the process of coming out with its final season right now, as we're recording, has serious Buffy influence.

Karen Foglesong:

Absolutely.

Erin Branham:

Shonda Rhimes and the entire Shondaland stable of shows has said Buffy was a major influence. So that's Grey, Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, things like that. And then my favorite one, Florence Welch of Florence and the Machine is a big fan.

Karen Foglesong:

That's awesome.

Erin Branham:

She said, she said she almost named an album season six after season six of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Karen Foglesong:

Well, I think if you're a certain type of feminine personality, characters like Buffy are few and far between, and you have to grab on to them no matter how cheesy they are. I mean, I remember, you know, Wonder Woman, when we were girls, Linda Carter, you know, did the best that she could, but those scripts were cheesy, but they were like, okay, ready and pose, and ready and pose. But that's what we had. That is all we had, you know, like, and then, you know, Jo eventually, but she wasn't a superhero. But anyway, okay, I digress.

Erin Branham:

That's a reference to a sitcom called The Facts of Life, for those of you who are not Gen X.

Karen Foglesong:

Facts of Life.

Erin Branham:

But yeah, we talked about Karen, and I talked about, in preparing for this, the part of the reason for the impact of Buffy the Vampire Slayer as being very influential, was there were not a lot of female action heroes before that. As we said, there were basically two previous TV series, Wonder Woman and the Bionic Woman.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

In the 70s that were female action heroes. But as you know, I mean, most TV in the 70s was pretty cheesy.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, and they had to be very careful. I mean, like the male counterparts in those shows had to, you couldn't embarrass the boys, right? They had to be very careful about how the women were heroes in those two series.\

Erin Branham:

Right It was very- there was a kind of a constraint around a lot of it. That is not, it's not, you know, Buffy didn't throw off all those constraints, because we'll talk some about that. The kind of image of the hero who is always very feminine, right? Wonder Woman is very feminine. Linda Carter is very feminine. Lindsay Wagner and Bionic Woman were very feminine. Buffy is very, very feminine. That is part of the self consciousness of Buffy is the fact that it's sort of It's true. saying, we know that all these heroes always look very So when this came out in 19 Yeah, in 1997 like it was a real feminine, and that like there's a little bit of a play on it, but it's also a play on it that still allows the male gaze. risk to do something like this. The only other thing that was happening at the time was Xena.

Karen Foglesong:

Xena!

Erin Branham:

Which had started in 1995.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

But to be honest, it was way more obscure, even than Buffy at first. I think in 1995 like, it took a minute for people to really come along, like, except for the super hard core people to come around to Xena. And for the major that for, like, the magazines and things, to start noticing that this had this show had this intense following.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, no, when I was watching Xena, originally, I was made fun of for it. It took a while for it to become, like, cool.

Erin Branham:

yeah. I mean, it was an odd like, that whole, the whole Hercules thing, because they were, again, very cheesy and very Wink, wink at the camera. Yes, they're like, We don't have any money, and we know it, and you know it, and we're just gonna have fun with it, ok? it.

Karen Foglesong:

Go with us on this. Okay, here we go. Fire people. Ready?

Erin Branham:

Very much. It was very much like, take, take my hand, child. You are going to come with us on a very silly journey, which we are going to take completely seriously. Like, that's one of the things I love about Xena, too. It is. It's very camp.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, but it had a strong following. And the other thing that's happening around Xena and Buffy is that they are coming out at the exact moment that the internet becomes a thing, like at the exact moment. And this allowed these small groups, like people who normally like back in the 70s when or 80s, when you loved something like this, you didn't know anybody else,

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

who also liked it.

Karen Foglesong:

Or one person in a small town

Erin Branham:

felt very Yes, yeah, you were one person. There was nobody else who knew what your thing was, that you were into. But the internet allowed you to find other people. And then there became these, you know, sites of very intense community around these shows.

Karen Foglesong:

Shared stories.

Erin Branham:

That are part of why they were very, yeah, shared stories, exactly, people finding each other with these shared stories. So it was very, that's part of why I think it was so influential to a lot of other artists. Winners, Aliens and Terminator coming on the scene too. Where are they in timeline? Aliens and term Terminator was 1984 and I think Aliens was 1986. Okay, so yeah, we did have those. And The X Files and Scully were walking around like there were these little things that were happening that kind of pushed the envelope around female action stars, women as the main characters, as the smartest character. I mean, that was Scully, yeah, was, you know, she was fearless, she didn't mind anything gross, and she was the smartest person in the room.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

So there was that. There was both what's interesting about Aliens and Terminator that does carry over, and I think were real influences on Buffy, is that the two females at the center of those, those two characters, are reluctant heroes, right? They are forced into becoming action heroes.

Karen Foglesong:

Right. They definitely didn't want it either one of them.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, so that's part of I mean, that works really well for kind of the hero arc that they both that Sarah Connor and Ripley both go on is that they're like the least likely person to be the one who is going to save the day through action stuff.

Karen Foglesong:

And I tell you, though the Aliens scene is the second one, Aliens with the s with Sigourney Weaver and the well, Ripley and the mother alien face off with over the babies. Oh, my God, that is the most breathtaking choreography I have ever seen in my life. Is between a human and an insectoid, probably puppet, but oh man, you know exactly what's going on. They interact with one another. It is so beautiful. Anyway, mommy archetype at play there heavily.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, I know we should do Alien/ Aliens, that whole we should do the whole franchise, because it's so crazy sometimes.

Karen Foglesong:

Absolutely, okay.

Erin Branham:

That would be fun. Definitely, very, very mythicy kind of stuff.

Karen Foglesong:

Okay - Buffy -

Erin Branham:

So returning to to Buffy, the series works like this. It's a monster of the week, where every monster is a metaphor for something growing up. It starts in adolescence, and it actually carries you all the way through young adulthood, really digging deep on what are the things of life that you have to cope with to grow up during these periods. I mean, it's, sort of this is part of what's funny about it is that it just really is very straightforward about we're going to give you a metaphor where growing up is living through a horror movie.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Yeah. And we all can relate to that. We can all relate to that, sadly, but truth.

Erin Branham:

And it has this kind of meta sensibility about it. Buffy was one of the very first shows that, now, you see this all over the place, but was one of the very first shows that was like, we know that you know that we know that you know, right? They were very aware of the tropes that they were involved in. They commented on them in funny ways. The characters would make little comments about, you know, like, I know what's about to happen. I've seen horror movies.

Karen Foglesong:

Right - I've seen horror movies, yeah, yeah.

Erin Branham:

And this kind of leads to this very conscious subversion, such as the reverse of the final girl. Like, that was the core concept of Buffy, was the creator Joss Whedon, who has very bad reputation now, partially due to things that happened on Buffy. But we're not talking him.

Karen Foglesong:

Right - We're not talking about him. This is

Erin Branham:

But did say that the initial concept was, you about Buffy. know, you see this trope in movies all over and over again. The defenseless, beautiful, young, blonde woman walks into an alley followed by the monster, and the monster kills her, and he thought, I would just love it to see the blonde girl turn around and kick the monster's ass, right? And that was kind of the core concept

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah It's also Joss Whedon has also gone on and written numerous

Erin Branham:

of Buffy

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah. comic books. He was very, very heavily influenced by comic books. Some of the other creators within Mutant Enemy, which is the production company that created Buffy, were also very into comic books, so it has a real superhero structure, and Buffy is regularly referred to as a superhero, but it's kind of married to a soap opera. It's like that beautiful mash of superhero and soap opera that, like Chris Claremont's X Men was, yeah, yeah, back in the day, right? And I think that also was an influence on Buffy, yeah. So Buffy is at once super strong and super competent, but she's also the hyper feminine lead of a very romantic story. Everybody's falling in love with Buffy. Yeah, it's nothing for her to chase after a vampire in stiletto heels and and a sparkly scarf flowing in the wind as she runs.

Erin Branham:

Very true, very true. The star of the show, Sarah Michelle Gellar is also quite petite. At various points throughout the story, she looks dangerously thin, if you ask me, and not to comment on another person's body, but certainly was part of the kind of heroin chic of the day, kind of waifish quality to the female body was considered the ideal. She definitely fit into that ideal, and I will always give her all this credit for this she did, but, man, she projected superhero.

Karen Foglesong:

She did.

Erin Branham:

Part of the reason Buffy works so well is that Sarah Michelle Gellar is just fucking awesome.

Karen Foglesong:

It's true. It's very true. That's one of the reasons why I love Zoe and Firefly. Man, she was just badass. There was no way around it. She was a badass, and every second I got to see her be a badass, I was excited.

Erin Branham:

Definitely love that too. Firefly is another Mutant Enemy production. Really great Sci Fi series killed before its time, unfortunately.

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

So, I mean, what do you think about that, Karen, in terms of the sort of the interplay of the male gaze and feminist storytelling within Buffy?

Karen Foglesong:

I think I'm a little numb to it, because I am a comic book fan, so there's a level of having to accept it and deal with it that is a very real part of my experience of these pop culture phenomenons. I think that they tried to at least balance it, because there's a lot of you know, shirtless scenes with hot males, and I know many women who are totally enamored with Spike or Angel. I know women who have named their children after one of these two characters, you know. And I'm always amazed anyone who names their child Angel. That child is so rebellious and devilish acting, it just trips me out. Every time I meet an Angel. It's like they're encapsulated that

Erin Branham:

That's a very good point. flipping ofAngels character within this storyline is

Karen Foglesong:

So I don't know that I'm answering any encapsulated in naming the child that and I just wonder if questions. I'm bringing up more questions, but that's it. there's some fascination, maybe with females wanting to fix, you know, he's the big fix. I don't know. So they're definitely, I mean, Buffy, because Geller is petite herself for not dealing'with, like, the ridiculous Barbie doll kind of, you know, the gigantic breasts and the tiny waist and the teeny tiny feet that, like, say, Cat Woman has, that's impossible. So there's some shifting of that, and some of it that I think is attributed to male gaze, I think is actually the female gaze, because we - the female of our species is quite judgmental about other females, so sometimes I think Buffy is dressing to impress other women more than she's impressing men,

Erin Branham:

say that about like it was it aimed at at men because it's that. I don't think that show was for men. I think it was for women. or at women, or at boys or girls, or... Interestingly, I think because it, you know, that was one of kind of the genre breaking things about it was that it had all the action that would appeal to boys. Certainly, at this period in the 90s, there was a pretty strong sense of different threads for the different genders, and so a sense of that, and it certainly did appeal on that, but it's a super romantic story. It has a kind of a humor that I think appeals across the board to people I don't know. It's really interesting, and you're very right about that. Had plenty of female gaze stuff in it. Yeah, there's lots of hot guys, like a lot of when you have you know a female as, a woman as their your main character, and it's a superhero story, she can't settle down with anybody, so you're going to have a parade of guys going through. I was just reading an interesting article that was talking about how Buffy is interesting because it does take a woman and put her into what is typically a set of kind of masculine storylines.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

And how the TV series undermines some of the rules that had been in place up until then. One of, one section of the article is called the Little Joe problem.

Karen Foglesong:

Okay, from Bonanza?

Erin Branham:

And it's referring to, yeah, yeah, you watched Bonanza, right?

Karen Foglesong:

Yes!

Erin Branham:

Okay, this is definitely, yeah. This is definitely only gonna make sense to people of a certain age, meaning over 40, at least.

Karen Foglesong:

So this is television history, though. Y'all. It's worth looking up if you want to understand.

Erin Branham:

Exactly so what? Like in the 50s was the show called Bonanza, 50s or 60s. I guess must have been the 60s, because Michael Landon was on it. 60s show called Bonanza. It was about the family that lived on a, you know, a ranch, and it was a widowed dad and his three grown sons, and the hot one was Little Joe.

Karen Foglesong:

Right!

Erin Branham:

Which is young Michael Landon. And so whenever

Karen Foglesong:

Yes!

Erin Branham:

And so they talk about how Buffy subverts the Little Joe fell in love with somebody, that woman was going to die by the end of the episode. So it was and so it was called The Little Joe problem, and I know it largely because, again, I'm a big Trekkie, and we used to joke about that in my household. Don't follow, yeah, don't fall in love with Captain Kirk, because you will be dead within 42 minutes. Little Joe problem. I mean, this was very common for male heroes that had any kind of repeated storyline. It happened too in comic books. It happened on TV shows. It happened like in movies, Bond, right? Bond gets married in one of the movies in the 60s, dead, right?

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

By the end of the show, yeah. Like, it just happened over and over again. So in Buffy, there's a real sort of conscious effort to subvert that. So there are times when you think that she's just met somebody who's going to date her, who ends up dead, but just turns out he's not. She saves the life of the One Night Stand who treats her badly. They just managed to find all these ways to not actually kill off her love interests.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

And so they go off into the, basically, a lot of them go off into the sunset.

Karen Foglesong:

I love that!

Erin Branham:

Which is actually really good episodic, yeah, episodic storytelling, because then you can bring them back when you need them.

Karen Foglesong:

Yes, I was gonna say, I love the, what's the the military guy with the Adam storyline that where he goes off in the helicopter?

Erin Branham:

Uh, Riley.

Karen Foglesong:

Riley, he literally takes off into the sky.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, it's very true. So that's one of the things. Like I said, the interesting thing about a lot of Mutant Enemy material is that there is this very conscious we're going to show you a trope. We're going to hit every single beat in that trope, you're going to recognize it. Your whole story .... participation circuits are going to be lit up, and you're going to go, I know what happens next. And then they do something different right at the "next."

Karen Foglesong:

Even if it's just a little bit. So, just a hair.

Erin Branham:

Oh, just Yeah, just a little bit. My favorite one is Firefly in the episode where the gangsters have sort of got them down, and they've got the henchman right, and you've already met the, like, old dude who's the corporate bad guy. And I was like, Oh, I get it. The henchman is going to chase him around for the season, and the bad guy is going to be back there. And so he goes up to a Mal goes up to him and says that main character goes up to this guy, and offers him money, and he says, I'm gonna give you this money, and you're gonna go back to the bad guy, and you're gonna tell him to stay away from us. And the guy kind of yells at him, and you, you like said, You think he's gonna let him go, and that's gonna be the whole setup. And the guy doesn't say the right thing, and Mal kicks him into the engine.

Karen Foglesong:

He does let him go.

Erin Branham:

Where he disintegrates. Hey, and, and I remember just going, oh my god!

Karen Foglesong:

Right, yeah. And the second guy's like, I got it, I got it. Don't, don't follow you. Here's the money,

Erin Branham:

Right, right? He's like, Absolutely, I will take the money. Yes, sir. It was very funny. So it has this very fun kind of humor to it that surprises you over and over again, which is very fun.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, it was, yeah, I enjoyed it. And I do, I repeatedly watch Buffy. I do go back and watch Buffy so that the writing does stand up. On the multi test issue.

Erin Branham:

it is exceeding it's very rewatchable. You do follow there's a number of really strong characters. You kind of fall in love with the characters and their various things. And one of the other really interesting things about Buffy is that it has a history. The things that happen matter. It changes over time. It is not trying to kind of keep the same structure right, or deal with the same concepts over and over and over again. There are certain threads that are consistent but that get really reworked season to season. And one of the reasons for that is is that, because this was a very small show that was only intensely loved by a small number of people, it was in danger of cancelation every single year. So at the end of every single year, they would write a season finale that could work as the series finale.

Karen Foglesong:

Oh, God. How hard!

Erin Branham:

At the end of every season they would, yeah, they would like tie it in a knot and go, there you go. And then they go, here's another season. And so they really had to push to do something new.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, they did pretty good with it.

Erin Branham:

Yeah! I think it when you start to analyze it thematically, and like said, you get into these Jungian concepts, which we're going to do in a minute. It is, it's surprising how strong it is, especially for a TV show, especially for what was a small, low budget TV show, it is, the writing is really fantastic. And Buffy has gone on after it ended. After seven seasons, there have been numerous comic book follow ups, and now this new TV show that is coming out in early 2026 like there's -

Karen Foglesong:

And lots of fan fiction, right?

Erin Branham:

Oh, my God!

Karen Foglesong:

She gets a lot of fan fiction too.

Erin Branham:

Oh, my God, Buffy fan fiction is yes, yes. There's a lot, there's a lot of it,.

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

There's a lot of it.

Karen Foglesong:

Which means it's touching a nerve in our kind of creative, cultural unconscious. You know, that's what that means, yes. And people are jumping on the bandwagon. It's touching people.

Erin Branham:

Yep. And and it's been off the air 2003 it's been off the air for over 20 years, and there is still a very strong internet fan base that, like, you know, posts things every day now in 2025 about Buffy and about the TV series that was 20 years ago. Like it is, it is going strong in a number of ways, and I'm very intrigued to see this new one, which is a continuation of the original series. Sarah Michelle Gellar is coming back in a recurring role and will be the mentor of the new Slayer. And like I said, the talent that they're bringing to it, Chloe Zhao is like not a joke. A woman that's woman is one of the few people who, I think, as one of the few women who has won a Best Directing Oscar, or either that or it was her best picture. Nomadland won Best Picture, I think. So, like, she is really an interesting creator right now. And the fact that she would be like, yes, I want to do that is is very interesting as well. So I'm super intrigued to see the new show.

Karen Foglesong:

I'm hoping, too she'll bring a more diverse cast to it, because, as we've talked about, too, Buffy is very white, Anglo, whatever in that direction you want to call it.

Erin Branham:

Definitely, yeah. The Original Series is there's very few people of color. It's just Yeah. It's just a completely white world, which is funny because it set in Southern California, which is really California, which is really, really diverse area.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? And I think it has to do a lot with class too. They're all pretty much of, like a, you know, of a means, you know, Xander occasionally is played as the poor guy. But they all have, they're all wearing brands, let's say, should say.

Erin Branham:

True, true, very true. I mean, there is a sense that it's supposed to be kind of a suburban Southern California, which could be very white. That is very true. And and Angel, the spin off series, which takes place in Los Angeles, does a little bit of a better job.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, they have some green people.

Erin Branham:

It has at least one main character who has at least one Black main character, so -

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, it's hard, it's hard. We're like, trying to get all of our levels of diversity and understanding into every story, and it's difficult to break all the rules simultaneously for the viewing audience, you know, to keep everybody on board.

Erin Branham:

Oh, I think in these, yeah, when you're looking at these earlier shows, yeah, there are different kinds of things that they're trying to break through. But it is also the myopia of Hollywood at the time that, you know, they just wouldn't even they're like, No, we're making a white show for white people,

Karen Foglesong:

Right, that's the audience.

Erin Branham:

Black shows were a different - In the 90s, Black shows were completely a different universe. So there were huge numbers of them, and they were terrific and amazing, but they there was not a lot of crossover.

Karen Foglesong:

Right. That's true, yeah.

Erin Branham:

So again, kind of, we wanted to get into the talk about the kind of thematic analysis of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which is she's definitely a reluctant hero Chosen One trope kind of forms the core of Buffy's story. The first tension that you meet with her is, I just want to be a regular 16 year old girl, but I have to go out and at night and save the world all the time. So she's very kind of fighting against all of that. In at least one analysis that I've read, this is largely put forward by Mark Fields in his book, Buffy

the Vampire Slayer:

Myth, Metaphor and Morality, which has been turned into a number of really nice episode analysis by Passion of the Nerd on YouTube. I recommend these if you're interested in this, because a lot of this material I got from listening to these and from reading this book. So in this interpretation, being the Slayer equals being an adult. Like this is the struggle. This is the universal struggle that Buffy represents. She just wants to be a regular teenager. Adulthood is calling. She's resisting, right? And I have teenage kids, and this is very real thing.

Karen Foglesong:

Right. And you've talked about this too earlier, when we were talking about it, the vampires are symbols of people who refuse to grow up. So Slayer versus vampire is another layer of this kind of meta examination, right? Because we're fighting -

Erin Branham:

Absolutely.

Karen Foglesong:

frozen in time or being completely selfish perspective.

Erin Branham:

Definitely, definitely. And so the struggle going on is, should I, you know, I Responsibility is calling, I don't want to accept it, and the demons that come at her, the demons and the vampires and the demons are are adulthood just battering down the door. You have to grow up like you have no choice, right? It has to happen. I very much remember experiencing that myself in my teen years. As I said, I see my teenage daughters who are going through this stuff right now and the push pull of these things. There is a crew of people around Buffy. This is a lot of what makes this show beloved is the group around her, and each one of them actually has a symbolic function within the story. You want to go through some of these. Karen.

Karen Foglesong:

I love Cordelia. Man, she is such a great character to hate, you know, like I grew up with Dallas and Dynasty, right? Those were the two. And my family was a Dynasty family, so we had Joan Crawford and Linda Evans. And Joan Crawford was so great to hate, and Cordelia was along those classic bitch lines, right? Like glamorous and like we talked about if, if Buffy had not become the Slayer, this is the path that Buffy would be on. Buffy is captain of the cheerleading squad, like voted most popular and all of that, until she burned the school gym down.

Erin Branham:

Fighting vampires.

Karen Foglesong:

And then

Erin Branham:

Fighting vampires really got in the way of her being Homecoming Queen.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? It really did. And so that's why we're we end up in Sunnydale is because she had to move, you know, the whole nine yards. So Cordelia is what if and -

Erin Branham:

Right. And she's a character who comes on as an antagonist, but then kind of gets folded into the gang that works around here. But she never stops being a bitch, no?

Karen Foglesong:

No, and if you follow Cordelia all the way through all of this universe, she eventually becomes a freaking saint.

Erin Branham:

Yes, absolutely, she doesn't. She's never stops being a bitch till she gets to Angel's show, and then she get does a whole other arc that's fantastic.

Karen Foglesong:

I leanred that that was not the best way to be. Yeah, it was great. And then I love when we're talking about Giles and Willow and Xander, because these are the way we have these broken down. Is similar to End Game, which is a famous Beck Beckett play. So there's probably some classic literature fans in this writing group, right, that are styling out to that. So Giles is Buffy's head, who you know helps her be rational, because she's not rational. She's a teenager. And I would say Willow, like you talked about, Willow is Buffy's spirit, and Xander is Buffy's heart. I think those are apt. I wouldn't argue with them.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, so that's their thematic or their metaphorical thing. But in the universe, Giles is an older man, middle aged man, maybe, who is Buffy's Watcher. So there is, within this universe, there is a Council of Watchers who oversee, essentially, the Slayer. There can only be one Slayer at a time. That is the kind of core lore is that only one girl in all the world is chosen to fight against the vampires. When that Slayer dies, another Slayer is activated. So there are lots of young women out there who could possibly be a Slayer, but a Slayer has to die and to be for the next one to become activated. The implication throughout the show is that Slayers frequently do not even meet their 18th birthday.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

That it's a big deal when one of them actually lives to be 18 years old. Essentially, the idea is that a Slayer is activated, lives a couple of years, maybe, in fighting the vampires, and then is killed, and then another Slayer is activated. This is one of the things that really hangs over Buffy's head. That is one of the darker aspects of the series, and it is part of the metaphorical thing. Death is always lingering over the whole thing.

Karen Foglesong:

So it'ss the patriarchy!

Erin Branham:

Exactly we're gonna get into the Council of Watchers. The Council -

Karen Foglesong:

The patriarchy can snatch a young girl's life away in an instant also. No, I mean, yeah, okay, but I'm, I don't want to push off into something.

Erin Branham:

No, no, go ahead.

Karen Foglesong:

Council of watchers.

Erin Branham:

No, just say that. It's just,

Karen Foglesong:

it is true.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, Giles is actually so starts off within this council of watchers eventually is fired by them because he's too close to Buffy. All various different things are going on, but it's very the implication throughout it is that there's something extraordinary about Buffy, because she survives much longer than most slayers do.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

And the essential aspect of the story that comes through is that this is because she has these other people working with her. The Slayer is supposed to be alone, like she is explicitly told this when she meets the spirit of the very first Slayer.

Karen Foglesong:

Everybody, we're going to take a quick break.

Erin Branham:

We want to hear from you. Please visit our website at mythic. U.buzzprout.com that is m, y, t, h, i, c, u.buzzsprout.com for more great information on choreographing your own spirituality. Leave us a comment and rate and review us on your pod catcher, it helps people find this podcast.

Karen Foglesong:

Welcome back, everyone.

Erin Branham:

The Slayer is not supposed to operate with allies. Is not supposed to operate with companions, and Buffy continues to do so. The other two companions are her two best friends at Sunnydale High that she meets basically on the first day. Willow, who starts off as a very, very shy computer nerd who loves school and has absolutely no confidence whatsoever, and her best friend since they were little kids, Xander, who starts off as just sort of a dude.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah. He's kind of like -

Erin Branham:

This is a running joke.

Karen Foglesong:

He's kind of like the male gaze within the script, because he's just enamored with Buffy.

Erin Branham:

Certainly at the beginning.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, certainly at the beginning. Xander is the regular guy, like he is the every man. This is in a in a show where a lot of people have extraordinary abilities, he is always the one who doesn't.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

And is a little bit dorky and is just like I said, it's the human in the midst of all of this supernatural power. Again, everything is made explicit within Buffy, there's literally an episode called the Zeppo in which Cordelia, being a bitch, tells Xander how useless he is, how he is, basically the Zeppo of the Marx Brothers amongst this little crew. And then you proceed to have an episode where big things are going down in the lives of the main characters, and Xander only sort of runs in and out of these things that are going on because he's just a sidekick. It's one of the funniest things that I've ever seen.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, poor Xander.

Erin Branham:

I love that episode so much. Good. Yeah, exactly. Poor Xander, okay, so the Giles then Buffy's head, right? He's the rational. We're going to think this through. We're going to come up with a plan. Willow is Buffy's spirit. Willow eventually becomes a powerful witch who can manage, who can do magic. And Xander is Buffy's heart, because he is the basic human.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

At the core of all of this, yeah, Sunnydale sits on top of what is called a hell mouth. This is why vampires and other demons and beasties are attracted to Sunnydale, which is why it's a good place for the Slayer to be. The hell mouth basically symbolizes the unconscious, that part of ourselves that we are not that's not verbal, and therefore it's hard for our conscious brain to talk to because our conscious

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Yeah, and our unconscious stuff spew brain only wants to talk in words and math. out horrors at us sometimes that we're don't feel like we're ready to handle and and we have to.

Erin Branham:

Absolutely. There you go. That's fantastic.

Karen Foglesong:

It's a great analogy, and it is also just a little side note here is hellmouth is a historical I thought that was cool. element too, that comes from the church trying to get people to come back to church. And they did like this little parade, and the demons would come out of the hell mouth. They like built a literal mouth, like a demon mouth with teeth and stuff, and

Erin Branham:

It is, it is yes. And I like that. Our unconscious demons would crawl out of it to scare everybody into being a Christian, being good Christians. So it has historical resonance, also with ourconscience. throw things at us all the time. When you wake up in the middle of the night, it's four o'clock in the morning, and you feel all of a sudden, you realize you feel really anxious, and you have a strange feeling of dread. You don't really know where it's coming from. That is your unconscious.

Karen Foglesong:

Yes! And it can't put words, it can't come up with a name that your conscious brain can recognize, which is why you feel that dissonance, right?

Erin Branham:

Yep.

Karen Foglesong:

And you're like, what's going on? And it's like, I don't know. It's something.

Erin Branham:

I know - exactly your conscious brain will be like, Why? What's happening? I don't, I don't even nothing. I have no thoughts about this. And your unconscious is going, your unconscious is in the in the back your mind going, you're gonna die. One day, one day you're gonna die.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Like, yes, but not in this moment. Shut up.

Erin Branham:

I know that's why I like, did you see Barbie? Did you see the Barbie movie?

Karen Foglesong:

Yes.

Erin Branham:

The Barbie movie where she's dancing, and she's like, do you ever stop at the feelings of death? That's very unconscious moment happening right there.

Karen Foglesong:

Right Yes. I was really surprised with that

Erin Branham:

This is the way that stories. This is why we one. talk about stories, and why we look at these modern stories. Because these modern, I mean, ancient myths are great. We love ancient myths. We talk about ancient myths on the show, but yeah, our modern myths matter too. These things that resonate through our culture, that are powerful to groups of people, that's because they capture again, our unconscious works in

Karen Foglesong:

That connection. stories, right? It works in symbols. So the fact that these

Erin Branham:

pattern, right? That is, so, yeah, that is, is things resonate with us is our unconscious saying, yes, yes. I see that. I recognize that. When you have that you know, when you cry at a story and you're like, what happened? You're like, I don't know. I'm just moved. That is because you're recognizing that deep, mythic - what makes us able to live, able for our conscious brains to, like, not go crazy.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, we need this. Have to have the story

Erin Branham:

Absolutely. So we're gonna do a little walk through of the seven seasons and the symbolic or thematic aspects of them that make Buffy a modern mythic tale. So at the beginning of the story, Buffy has had Slayer hood thrust upon her. She was just a 16 year old girl. This weird old guy shows up with a stake and says, You are the Vampire Slayer. And she's like, I have homework to do.

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

She is the chosen one, and she has been chosen, but she has not herself chosen anything. So this is very like I said, this is the state we are all in as we are coming into our teenage years. We didn't ask to be born. Here we are. Responsibility and adulthood are coming for us, and we just really may not be into that.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? I think I'm still fighting.

Erin Branham:

I think a lot of people are, I think that's what you hear when people are just like, oh, adulting. So Buffy was actually so low budget and such a long shot that it was a mid season replacement. Now, again, people under a certain age are not going to even understand what a midseason replacement is. So yo, lo, back in the days of yore -

Karen Foglesong:

Yes.

Erin Branham:

We would have a TV series. TV series would go from September until May. It would have somewhere between 22 and 26 episodes. Sometimes the TV show would start in the fall, and would be so bad, or would have such bad ratings, that they would take it off in the middle of the year. So they would only show the first 13 episodes. If

Karen Foglesong:

Right. that did not get enough viewership, they would go out of here. Now they have a time slot they need to fill so they could bring in what's called a mid season replacement, a short run series at something. So again, you get 13 episodes instead of the usual, like 22 or 26 and you have your shot to see if you'll get enough viewership for them to pick you up and bring you back for season two. That is how Buffy started. So the first season is very short. It is super clunky. Right!

Erin Branham:

Not gonna lie to anybody, it is super clunky, but there's definitely something there. Like, you can if you are

Karen Foglesong:

And that first episode is great!

Erin Branham:

If you're gonna become a fan. Like, if you watch the whole first season, you're like, I can forgive it sins for what I'm seeing, then you're going to be a Buffy fan.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah.

Erin Branham:

Basic structure of it, though, is that she is just kind of childishly rejecting becoming an adult or becoming the slayer. And yes, it appeared, but in the very last episode, she has a kind of come to Jesus, meaning, moment, and she decides, you know, you see this to her powerfully, decide, yes, I'm going to go and accept the mantle of Slayer hood, right?

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

Yay. Pretty simple, not - basic coming of age story, basically what you'd expect from something like this. You're okay, I get it. This is what we're going to be doing, right? Yeah. But in season two, instead of kind of just rolling that story again, which is what you would kind of expect from a teenage superhero kind of story, all of a sudden, all this other stuff gets brought in. It is largely coping with the Other. Buffy falls in love with a 200 year old vampire who has shown up mysteriously over and over again to assist her.

Karen Foglesong:

Right.

Erin Branham:

She doesn't know at first that he's a vampire. She just thinks he's a hot guy who's helping out.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Just the mysterious, hot guy from the shadows.

Erin Branham:

Right. And she's starting to kind of get the feels for him. And so in season two, he is revealed to be a vampire. And so the season two is about coping with the Other, the and the Other in the most fundamental kind of way, in the male, female kind of way, in the Anima, Animus kind of way, and of dealing with sexuality, of coming to the Other who you want to be intimate with, that kind of Other.

Karen Foglesong:

Yes.

Erin Branham:

And so how do you reconcile becoming intimate with something so different than you, right again, which is a basic struggle of maturity, right? Yeah. How do I relate to this, this completely other creature? How do I come to terms with the fact I will never know really, what's going on in that person's head? How do I like what is intimacy, right, with another person is basically what season two is about. And I don't know you want to tell them the twist in season two.

Karen Foglesong:

And, no, I don't know You go ahead. I don't know what you're talking about.

Erin Branham:

Angel.

Karen Foglesong:

Oh, Angel.

Erin Branham:

Angel.

Karen Foglesong:

Is this where they actually have, they actually get to be together, and then he changes. Is that what you mean? Okay, yes, all right. Sorry, I was like, I which twist I don't know.

Erin Branham:

THE twist.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Well, Angel is, you know, to everybody else, he is truly the Other because he's the thing that she's hunting. He's a vampire. First she finds that out, and then she accepts that and gets her friends to get on ish board. And then they're actually consummate their love, and he flips and becomes and Angelus. And just what?

Erin Branham:

You discover at the moment, yeah, at the moment that they finally make love, you discover that Angel has had a curse put upon him. The reason he is different from other vampires is he still has his soul. So the lore within Buffy is that when you become a vampire, a demon kicks your human soul out of your body and takes possession of your body. It can remember things that you did, but it is not really you. It is a demon inside of your body. Angel has been cursed by a group of Romani for having killed one of their kind. He has with that guy and decide to have sex with them, been cursed to have his soul brought back into his body so and now he can remember all of the terrible things he did as a vampire, and he suffers great pain and remorse, and thus is

Karen Foglesong:

-

Erin Branham:

and acts like he acts like he doesn't know your why he is working to help Buffy and the Slayer and fight against his own kind. But this curse means that if he were to experience a single moment of happiness, his soul is taken away again, and he reverts to being an evil vampire. So within the show, this happens as a 17 year old girl on her 17th birthday, I believe. name.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? That's pretty common in a patriarchal culture.

Erin Branham:

And so animating it this way, in the story of a curse and a vampire and a chosen one and a blah blah all this stuff, so that it's, you know, 10 times as big, yeah, but the core story is one that is a common one, of growing up, of having your heart broken, right? Even and beyond the sort of that specific story of having sex and then having the guy be a dickhead the next day. Yes, the again, the like, deeper thematic story is the thing that once you do start trying to figure out how to relate to the Other, how to have intimacy with the other, you will have your heart broken.

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

It's gonna happen.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, yes.

Erin Branham:

And so season two is about that journey. Season Three comes along and you're like, okay, like we've covered we're like, we're still deep in teen soap opera territory, right? You can run those same stories over and over and over and over and over again if you want to, plenty of shows do it.

Karen Foglesong:

Yes, they do.

Erin Branham:

Lead to season three, and you discover you'd already discovered that upon Buffy's very short death in season one, a second Slayer has been activated. That Slayer gets killed by Angel and things in the course of all of that in season two. And so in season three, another Slayer shows up, and she is Buffy's shadow.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, Shadow of the Slayer, even, I would say.

Erin Branham:

it's Yeah, exactly the kind of the shadow Slayer, exactly. You want to talk a little bit about Faith?

Karen Foglesong:

I always love that her name was Faith, too. She also reminds me of the psychology between the first born and the second born, especially if you're sisters, where the second born is trying to figure out where they fit in the world. And Faith seems to realize that the only places that she she has to exist where, where Buffy isn't actually filling in the space, are these kind of shadowy areas, and so she kind of revels in Slaying. She maybe she doesn't kill as quickly as Buffy does. She's got more of a cat and mouse kind of a quality about her. And if she wants a lipstick, she's gonna take the lipstick. You know, you're not paying her to save your life. So you kind of owe her, you know?

Erin Branham:

Definitely. And she does, at some point start to say to and she is seductive to Buffy, she's come over to my side. We can do anything we want. We are the most powerful creatures on earth who's gonna stop us?

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

And this goes on and on. And she sort of pulls Buffy further until that, until Faith actually kills a human, right? And blames Buffy for it tells everybody that Buffy did But the point being, and then she goes over to it.

Karen Foglesong:

Of course! the bad guys completely. But this dichotomy and of Buffy and Faith and the good Slayer and the bad Slayer, and at some point they do a body swap, and it's very but the whole thing is is kind of coping with your shadow as you get into being 17, 18, years old, it is going to come up again like you are. If you don't cope with your shadow, you're going to end up with some weird, really weird places, right? And it is a real trial to cope with your shadow. It's going to test you, it's going to it's going to tempt you into some dark places. And I think they did a really good job in this season. You see the like you see that Buffy incorporates some aspects of Faith's character. She Buffy does become stronger. She does develop more faith in herself and in her group of friends. It makes her stronger in her own belief system, having gone through this process of dealing with her shadow.

Erin Branham:

Absolutely. And that's a really good point to say that at each of these trials that you go through, Buffy at the end of the season is stronger.

Karen Foglesong:

She's grown.

Erin Branham:

every time, every Yeah, every time she has grown. And the other characters are having arcs where they're growing too, growing and changing as well. It really is remarkable for that, for like I said, really having a history, really moving the characters from one place to another, instead of just kind of endlessly churning in the same space as a lot of a lot of series, whether they are TV shows or books or, you know, whatever, this really does have an arc. When we get to season four, Buffy has graduated from high school. She's going to college, and so the whole season four is about coping with institutions. How do I relate to society's structures? How do I make a go of it within college? The bad guy in this is a military, a whole military group of crew her, her boyfriend turns out to be a part of so everything is about and they want to recruit Buffy so that they can control her. So again, it's like coping with institutions. Where do I - now I kind of have my ego built up. I've coped with the Other, I've learned about intimacy. I've had my heart broken. I've come back from that. I've dealt with my shadow. I've learned how to incorporate the best parts of that into myself. Now, how do I go out and relate to society's structures? How do I make a way of it, within a business, within a school, within some kind of a structure.

Karen Foglesong:

And there's also this very real thing where Buffy has thrown off the patriarchal control of the Watchers throughout these upcoming seasons, and at this point where she's dealing with the institutions this government agency wants to recruit her. And they're good guys, you guys. They're not trying to be bad guys, but they're kind of dogmatic. Rigidity is another way of giving over to having a like a patriarchal watcher. And again, Buffy says, No, I've already done this. I You can't be in control of me. You know, it's harder to be an adult without being attached to an institution, but if you want your freedom, you have to walk that path. You know, that's, I think that's a very real message.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, that's a really good point. This is the season where she throws off the control of the Council of Watchers. They do something terrible on her 18th birthday, and rope Giles into it. And at the end of it, she's like, I'm done with you. Like, I don't, what are you like? It's really great because you've had this and again, it's the kind of structure in a show and a fantasy show you would accept. It's a chosen one. There's a council. And she turns around and she's like, What do you guys do?

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

I don't What are you doing for me. I don't understand what you're doing, except trying to control me. I don't. And it is very much symbolically that this group of males, because there's in the group of Watchers that you meet, you see one woman ever, otherwise it's all men. And it is very much like we are just, we know the Slayer is powerful, and we just can't stand it being out there with us not having control over it.

Karen Foglesong:

Right. Yeah,

Erin Branham:

And so so she does. She says so in every one so in this season, at the end, she comes out with even more agency and more autonomy than she has had at any point before, which is good, because season five, right, is quite a season. In this, the kind of core themes have to do with what you start coping with in early adulthood. Where do I come from? Where am I going? What is the nature of existence? Basically, this is made manifest in that all of a sudden, when you start episode one of season five, Buffy suddenly has a younger sister, and everybody who is interacting with it makes it out as if this has always been the case.

Karen Foglesong:

And I mean, suddenly, like she's, what, 12 years old or something?

Erin Branham:

Oh, I think she's supposed to be 14.

Karen Foglesong:

14, ok.

Erin Branham:

14 when she shows up. And everybody, Buffy, her mom, everybody just this, that this, there's always been a younger sister, so much so did what you say, Karen, when you first saw it?

Karen Foglesong:

I thought I'd miss something.

Erin Branham:

What? What did

Karen Foglesong:

I what's going on? I missed an episode? A season?

Erin Branham:

And they don't explain it. They don't explain it for several episodes. It does turn out to be a supernatural occurrence that it has to deal with. But because you have this person who has been manifested from basically a kind of celestial energy in Dawn, as Dawn finds out who she is, the question that she asks constantly is, what am I really? What am I really? This is the question that rolls throughout the whole season. And in this season is one of the most powerful episodes that people frequently refer to when they refer to the greatest greatness of Buffy. And it is an episode in which Buffy's mother passes away, and Buffy comes in just to find her already passed. And the episode then goes on to deal with kind of that, the profound helplessness of the death of someone that you love, that it puts you in, and how hard that hits somebody who's a superhero.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, again, it's elevated, because Buffy is a superhero. She's like, I can do all of these things, and I can't save my mother from this sickness.

Erin Branham:

Yep, and it's really rough. And it's also the thing that is, this is the the season. This is the episode where Buffy fully transitions into adulthood, symbolized by the death of the one parent you ever see, right? So with the who she lives with, and so the death of her mother, she is now there with this younger sister who we know is a celestial manifestation of something else, but looks like a young girl and acts like a young girl and thinks like a young girl. It's extremely existential season. Let's put it that way.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Yes, yeha.

Erin Branham:

It's really good and a lot of people do. A lot of people it's it is interesting because it is loved and hated on a lot of different levels. People feel strongly about season five.

Karen Foglesong:

Well, it doesn't help that Dawn is such a crappy character. I mean, I'm not saying the actress is bad or anything. She's probably doing a great job based on the writing, but Dawn is so whiny, like she is the worst manifestation of 14 that you could possibly imagine. I mean, you know, Buffy is like, please, we're going to lose the house if you don't help me. And she's like, whatever. You just want to punch her in the face. Send her to the orphanage. Get over it.

Erin Branham:

I told you, passionate, Passion of the Nerd pointed out that Dawn, of course, is not an actual 14 year old girl. She is what a group of cloistered monks thinks a 14 year old girl would be like, because they're the ones who made her.

Karen Foglesong:

That's true. That's a good point. Okay, that's a good point, yeah? Cuz she's not really human, even, right? She's exactly, she's not really right.

Erin Branham:

She's not really human, yeah. So she's, it's, she's not unlike Anya who is. So there's another side character is ends up as Xander's girlfriend, who is a like, 2000 year old vengeance demon, who, because her power gets taken away from her becomes a teenage girl, and much hilarity is had out of that. Yes, very much so. Love Anya.

Karen Foglesong:

And you desperately needed Anya to balance Dawn, actually, Goodness!

Erin Branham:

Anyway.

Karen Foglesong:

Okay, go ahead. Sorry.

Erin Branham:

Season Six is about being an adult is hard work. Yes, it deals with things like the social construction, sort of having to keep up the face of being an adult. Actually, the adult responsibilities of money becomes a real issue in season six. Addiction becomes a big issue for one, for one of the main characters, Willow, in season six. Stress - things are always complicated. There's literally one episode called Flooded where they're just trying to fix the fucking piping in their house, right? Like, if that's not a great metaphor for being an adult. I don't know what is?

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Like, what is this? I don't want to deal with plumbing. Yep.

Erin Branham:

Every complication in season six happens because someone is trying to escape the hard work and complexity of adulthood. It is just over and over and over again I understand after I really, like, looked at this thematically, it was like, I understand what Florence was talking about about season six.

Karen Foglesong:

Right?

Erin Branham:

And I've always not been a fan of season six, because it is so like, it gets dark, it gets dark, it gets messy, it's complicated. It is. I just, I'm like, wow, that's probably why I didn't like it was because it is, it is about that really uncomfortable time period, like in your early 20s, when you don't know what the fuck is happening. You're just, like, trying to fake it and, like, pretend like you're an adult.

Karen Foglesong:

One of my favorite times in my 20s. Well, now to look back on is when I cut my finger in the kitchen and I went to the bathroom to get a band aid out of the medicine cabinet, and there weren't any band aids. And I was like, there's no band aids, Karen, because you did not buy band aids. There's no magic band aid fairy that fills the medicine cabinet.

Erin Branham:

Oh, my God, yes, that's exactly it. That is what season six is. That is exactly what season six is. God damn it. I cut my finger, go to the bathroom. There's no band aids. Because I am not a good enough adult to have band aids.

Karen Foglesong:

I did not think ahead of time to buy band aids. So we just used a paper towel and a piece of tape. (laughter) I had those.

Erin Branham:

Very much so, oh my god, yes. So that is, that is season six. And then in season seven, what you get is true maturity, because in this season, Buffy creates and leads a community and breaks the solo power of the Slayer for all time, right? You love the ending. Karen, why don't you talk about that?

Karen Foglesong:

I do love the ending. I mean, you know, you, you brought this up earlier. She's already dealing with breaking the rules because she has a group of friends that help her through this process, and her friends gain power. Xander is every man, but he becomes stronger. He becomes like the physical aspect of the group because of his growth, right? But in the season seven, this is when Buffy like gathers all of the potential slayers that she can find to her because she's trying to help save them. But through that process, she learns, they learn to create a real community. You know, there's times where everybody's on each other's nerves. They run out of toilet paper. There's, you know, like nobody bought the toilet paper. So where's the toilet paper coming from? You know that? But they really do learn to come together and work together. And by the end of it, this power is shared with the world, kind of, as the viewer, even you feel included in being given this power to be a Slayer, to be what an adult, to be an activated individual, to be a person who grapples with their own story, maybe? Anyway.

Erin Branham:

Yep, that's and that's exactly why. When you maybe, when you first saw the title of this episode, you went, huh, but that is why. That is why? Because, in the end, it is a really tremendous, mythic story that gets at some of the great struggles and truths, and is one of those kinds of tales that can really help you through life.

Karen Foglesong:

Yep. yep. And it doesn't advocate, it doesn't advocate that a way through life is to put other people down, which is something that I really enjoy. Even even the vampires which she has to slay, are treated with a level of respect. I mean, there's even, you know, there's a character that is a werewolf, and they learned how to help him be a werewolf and still exist in the world rather than kill him. You know, I mean-

Erin Branham:

Absolutely, as you say, occasionally they have, besides Angel who has this special quality of having his soul back, another vampire who starts off as an enemy becomes a member of the group.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Spike.

Erin Branham:

There is, yeah, Spike. There is a quality to a kind of openness and a flexibility. Even at you know, Faith's worth moments, there's a sense of she can still be redeemed. And then, as you say, the ending of it, the final, final, ending of activating all of the potential slayers, which gives you this image, which, as we talked about the kind of history of female action heroes and what was available up until Buffy. That Buffy landed where it did, where it started with such the basic trope of the chosen one, the solo hero, that it ends in this space where you see a group of, what is it? I don't know, 8, 10, 12, young women who are all the most powerful people on the planet, who are working together to fight and save everybody, who have agency, who have all of the autonomy that they need, who are functioning in different kinds of relationships. Buffy is also very famous for being one of the first places to show a queer relationship and a really fight, to show it and to show it in a real way, you know, fighting for, can we show a kiss? Fighting for? Can we show them in bed? Those kinds of things that happened that were really groundbreaking at the time, and it was to women. It was, you know, they're just so many ways in which it was a truly feminist piece of work that is, on top of all those things, super entertaining, like it is so much fun, they're obviously having some fun. It's silly, it's funny, it's touching. It will make you cry. There are moments in it that just Oh, break my heart.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, it's true. And the final episode too also breaks some of its own rules, because these girls are all different body types and all different colors and all different kinds of hair, all different levels of fashion, so to speak. Because, you know, Buffy has taught us that vampire slayers are fashionable. We have some that show up in overalls, which I really enjoyed myself.

Erin Branham:

There was a real quality of, I still think it's pretty overwhelmingly white, but there was a quality of,

Karen Foglesong:

Yes.

Erin Branham:

That, that class didn't make a difference, that origin didn't make a difference. You have already met - the first Slayer you meet after Buffy is Kendra, who is portrayed as Jamaican with a kind of famously bad Jamaican accent. But at the same time, the next Slayer that you meet after Buffy, is a Black girl. The Slayer that you see Spike with, again, is a bBack woman, like there is some effort to indicate in the sense that I got from the lore, was any woman, any woman anywhere in the world, could be a Slayer. You don't know who it's going to be. You don't know where it's going to be. It could be anybody. So there was at least enough of a sense. I mean, I took it in the way that I took Star Trek of the same era, which would have all of your principal characters except for, like, two kind of token minority characters, everybody else would be white, but all of the surrounding characters that you saw that were like the guest stars, the admirals and the captain of this ship, and that they would be very diverse, so that it gave you a sense of, Well, the universe is really diverse, but of course, we're watching the white people.

Karen Foglesong:

Right, We're always watching the white people, but I really did have -

Erin Branham:

Yeah, that was important at the time.

Karen Foglesong:

Yeah, It did make me feel like, yeah, it was where we were at at the time. But I and I am white, I can't help that, but I did have a very real sense that anyone, anywhere, and sometimes women are called to stand up for their community in different ways, and they have to stand up this is, this is what it means to be a fully alive adult female in the world like you have to stand up for the young kids. You have to stand up for the next generation of women. You have to watch that the patriarchal society does not take away our freedoms. You have to watch that's a very real thing. That's, I think that's an example of the demonic for me, man, it's just take away your personality and interject some level of rule following or hierarchical thoughtlessness, and it's all over.

Erin Branham:

Yeah, and that's a really good point, because that's another big thread that runs throughout Buffy is her struggle for real autonomy, to be her own person in the face of her parents, to be her own person in the face of the Council of watchers, to be her own fate, her own person, under Giles's eye, to be her own person based on the pressures of society around her, to be her own person even when the first Slayer calls her out and she's like, you're doing it wrong, right? And Buffy is like, she's, I gotta do it this way, like I'm this is the way I'm gonna do so there is a quality of kind of breaking old structures throughout it. And I should say the very ending is I'm going to break the whole structure of the Slayer as it has always existed, back to the first Slayer, who is indicated to be prehistoric. So it is, right, yeah. It is a really interesting sense of a story that sets up its own rules and then sets up its main character to break its own rules.

Karen Foglesong:

Right? Because really, that's the story of individuation. You are born into the rules of being a human in a certain culture, and you have to decide whether you're going to grab on to that culture and live it thoughtlessly, or are you going to create stories that energize you and help you to connect to the world?

Erin Branham:

Beautiful. That's a great place to end. I think.

Karen Foglesong:

Awesome.

Erin Branham:

Thank you all for listening, and we hope that you will give us a review on your pod catcher of choice, if you get a minute that helps people find us. Rating and reviewing us is a wonderful favor you can do for us if you like this podcast, and we look forward to seeing you next time.

Karen Foglesong:

Thank you guys. We want to hear from you, please visit our website at mythic u.buzzsprout.com that's m, y, t, h, i, c, u.buzzsprout.com for more great information on choreographing your own spirituality, leave us a comment and rate and review us on your pod catcher, it helps people find this podcast. You.

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Erin Branham

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Karen Foglesong

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