EPISODE 60 - The Monster In The Morgue

In today’s episode we delve into the chilling tales of Wendy and Caroline, two lives snuffed out too soon by the hands of a predator lurking within their small community. 
It would take decades to find their killer and when they did, police unearth something potentially even more sinister.

The episode concludes with a sobering exploration of the darkest corners of human depravity, manifest in the heinous acts Fuller committed within the presumed sanctuary of a hospital morgue. We grapple with the torment inflicted on the families of the deceased, the outrage of a community betrayed, and the unsettling realization that sometimes the real monsters live among us, undetected. As we recount the stories of mothers' anguish and a community's shattered trust, we're reminded that even in the search for justice, there's a profound pain that words can barely capture. Join us on this profound journey as we navigate the spectrum of humanity's brightest triumphs and darkest recesses.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Well, yes, yes, yes, congratulations on your good news.

Speaker 2: 0:05

Oh, it's just about the same. I've got some good news.

Speaker 1: 0:09

I already know, found out about 10 minutes ago. Yeah, really good.

Speaker 2: 0:16

I am officially one year cancer free. Woohoo. How about they do like to shoot you up though, didn't they?

Speaker 1: 0:25

No.

Speaker 2: 0:26

I went for my routine. So I have a yearly mammogram now and I went last week for my mammogram and they said, oh, you'll get a letter in the post. So I was like, great, that's fine. And then called me up yesterday. She was like, oh, I've got your mammogram results. And I was like shit, literally my mom was beating me. I know Because before, when I had the biopsy, they said to me the results will take two weeks and I had a scheduled appointment to get my results and they called me up beforehand and I was like, oh, I've got your results in. No, and it was not good news. No, when she called me I said I've got your results, I was like, oh, fucking hell, can't a guy catch a break? What, what do you want? Say it, it's bad news, I don't want to hear it. No. But she said, all good, oh, all good. No cancerous cells. No, son of it returning, no, nasty stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:33

No scusty stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:34

No scusties. Good, some people like that. Some people might say it's not going to be disgusting, but that's OK.

Speaker 1: 1:43

I'm all right with it. Yeah, but yeah, that's the kind of scusty stuff that I'm not all right with. No, I'm not that and we don't want that.

Speaker 2: 1:51

No, so I'm wearing my pink ribbon jumper.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Nice and.

Speaker 2: 2:00

I've got celebrate and I'm going bingo tonight.

Speaker 3: 2:07

Such a dweeb.

Speaker 1: 2:09

That's how I'm going to celebrate. Celebrate with a gamer bingo.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Where I won't win, I'm going to come away really frustrated.

Speaker 1: 2:18

Yeah, well, tonight may be the night.

Speaker 2: 2:22

Yeah, it has come to my attention from one of our listeners, Kelly, that the term frogging is also a crochet term. Oh, but when you have to undo a billion rows, if you've like made a mistake I don't know 70 rows ago, you have to frogging Like you have to completely undo it all.

Speaker 3: 2:43

Go back to that era. I didn't realise that, so that's why I said Frogging.

Speaker 2: 2:46

Yeah, also for anybody that doesn't do it, because I don't think we've ever actually said to people at the end of every episode not every episode, but at the very, very end of the episodes after all the thank you for listening, blah, blah, blah, all that nonsense. At the very end you generally put a clip of something, don't you? I do, and it's normally of me saying something completely stupid.

Speaker 2: 3:11

And so last week's episode you put my carrot song in. I love that, rich, do you want a carrot? Would you like a bit of carrot? So for everybody that did listen to that, I can only apologise, because that has been stuck in my head ever since. I've listened to it and I created it.

Speaker 1: 3:30

Yeah, no, I appreciated that far too much to not put it in and I was like do you know what Carrot song's going in? Going in? It's going in Like a bit of carrot. You can have a bit of carrot.

Speaker 2: 3:44

I don't know what happens. So he'd gotten up, had been asleep while we was recording. Then he'd gotten up and I'd let him outside for a while and he came in and I thought, oh, give him a bit of carrot in his bed Just broke out into song, didn't?

Speaker 1: 3:56

I so he did, turned into a right Disney character.

Speaker 2: 3:59

Yeah, and I thought our microphone screened like outside noise, so I didn't think it would hear things that I did. I hear a lot more than you think I do. I'm off to be careful. Yeah, it's too late, so apologies if that carrot song has got stuck in people's heads because it has been stuck in mine. Sorry about that.

Speaker 1: 4:23

There's worse songs to have stuck in your head.

Speaker 2: 4:27

There are Also. I've got a few things. I've actually written down a list of things I wanted to say. So at the end of last episode you mentioned about the frogging and that you're going to be doing your blam on different frogging examples of that. What's happened. And then you played.

Speaker 1: 4:50

The blam would have come out last Friday.

Speaker 2: 4:54

Yes, yeah. So. And then at the end of the episode you played an advert on how to subscribe and how to be able to listen to that. Blam I did. I can only apologize because when I listened to that it sounded like a help us feed our family for just three dollars a month.

Speaker 1: 5:13

Yeah, I relate that to. Every time my dog looks at me and looks sad, I always go, oh, for just two pounds a month.

Speaker 2: 5:23

You can help support our episodes. That's what it sounded like, so maybe perhaps we'll record a cheerier one, because it's accurate.

Speaker 1: 5:32

Yeah, subscribe.

Speaker 2: 5:33

We can feed our families with this three dollars a month, you can help support our show and help us feed our families.

Speaker 1: 5:40

Yeah, yeah, I was cracking up at that.

Speaker 2: 5:42

when I heard it I was up. For God's sake. You put really somber music to it. I thought it was really funny. You picked that music Well for the Jonestown episode. Well, it was also included in that advert.

Speaker 1: 5:57

I said what do you want on the advert? You were like yeah, I like that one. Oh, was it? And then that happened. Oh, I do apologize, Done it to yourself.

Speaker 2: 6:06

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:06

Right, we'll make a cheerier one. Yeah, sorry, but seriously, for about three dollars a month, you could help keep me in coffee and brownies, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:20

Yeah, perhaps I'll create a subscriber tune like the Carrot Song, but first first subscribers.

Speaker 1: 6:31

You want a subscription, do you want a subscription? You can have a subscription for three dollars a month and two extra episodes. Two flams. There you go, done.

Speaker 2: 6:43

Done, all right, carve copyrighted. That yeah, copyright, yeah, I do have some shout outs.

Speaker 1: 6:51

Oh yes, I've un-missed those this week. This week's gone so fast.

Speaker 2: 6:56

Maybe Shout out to our newest subscriber, maddie Maddie, maddie, welcome aboard. Woo, welcome, welcome. She's an avid listener of ours and loves our episodes and she's subscribed and she's now able to listen to the blams, which is great, although she wasn't able to listen to them on Spotify, which has come to our attention. Then, actually, if you do subscribe to our channel, to be able to listen to the two extra episodes, you have to not be a Spotify listener.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Honestly, it's been a ripe palaver.

Speaker 2: 7:38

Yeah, you know because Spotify isn't an actual podcast host. It music, ebooks, whatever else on there. It doesn't allow for the RSS link, which is a unique link for subscribers, to be added into Spotify, whereas if you listen to it on Apple Music, apple Podcast or Google Podcast or any other platform that is a podcast host Any other one, absolutely Any other one apart from Spotify. So, for anybody that does want to subscribe, if you are having trouble listening to the episodes on Spotify, it is because you can't Play it unsimple. So, yeah, you unfortunately have to listen to them on Apple. If you don't have Apple, there's Podbean and Google Podcasts Anywhere, literally on the email that you get sent through after you subscribe. It gives you all of the options that you can listen to, so choose which everyone suits you best, but we are working on a solution.

Speaker 1: 8:44

Well, Sarah is. I don't understand it.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Also another shout out. Another new subscriber, josie. Josie. Nice yeah. As a loving girlfriend of mine, she has subscribed to our podcast before, so she now has, and she said to me I better get a shout out.

Speaker 1: 9:11

I do know what I thought the other day Of all the people that I thought would subscribe, I thought Josie would.

Speaker 2: 9:21

Look at you, go. Look at me go. You're the one On the spot. Thought of that. Oh, it's like 9.51 in the morning. Yeah, great job.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Thanks. Well, thank you, Josie. That means a lot to us.

Speaker 2: 9:34

Yeah and Maddie. So thank you to our subscribers and also thank you to everybody that has joined our Facebook and Instagram community, because we've had a few people that have joined that. So thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 9:48

Thank you, and should we crack on? Yeah, random blams Go Shit, shit. I'll do mine first and you can walk on that. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen. I can do that one pretty easily. I saw a oh nearly said chicken. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen. Can you remember that one?

Speaker 2: 10:20

I found a kitten in the kitchen. What was it?

Speaker 1: 10:23

So rude.

Speaker 2: 10:24

Sorry, I thought these Sorry.

Speaker 1: 10:27

Right, try it. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen.

Speaker 2: 10:33

I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen. Say it five times. I saw a cumin eating chicken in the kitchen. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen. I saw a kitten eating chicken in the kitchen Nailed it it. That was fun, yeah, see, I felt like I bring the laughter before I felt like I really came into my own then, yeah, I saw a kitten in chicken in the kitchen. I saw a kitten in chicken in the kitchen.

Speaker 1: 11:07

See, that's going to be the new current song.

Speaker 2: 11:10

That's really fun for my mouth to do Kitten chicken wrap. Kitten in the kitchen. I saw a kitten in the kitchen. I saw a kitten in the kitchen.

Speaker 1: 11:25

I saw a chicken in the kitchen.

Speaker 2: 11:29

That's wrong. Right, it's a random blam for you. Come on, give it. Since 1980, there are still 222,000 unsolved serial killer murders in the US, just in the US.

Speaker 1: 11:48

Just in the US, good Lord.

Speaker 2: 11:52

You can walk past at least 36 serial killers in your lifetime. How about that? Oh, that's terrifying, that's really terrifying 222,000 unsolved serial killer murders.

Speaker 1: 12:09

The world is a really, really scary place, isn't it? When you start listening and looking at all the statistics and stories and, like the last blam that we did about frogging, it's proper scary, isn't it, that someone could be that close to you without you knowing and have such a dark soul, you wait.

Speaker 2: 12:35

Do you hear this episode? No, you wait. I know of the episode.

Speaker 1: 12:43

I wrote this Fine, don't wait, then Just do it.

Speaker 2: 12:45

Yeah, I'm not surprised by what's about to come, because I actually. It just sounds hideous, though it's really hideous. You've got no idea of the hideosity of it. Is that a word?

Speaker 1: 12:56

Oh, that's a nice word, hideosity. I just came sprawling out the magnitude of it Morning.

Speaker 2: 13:15

Good morning. Morning morning. Everyone Morning morning. That just reminded me. Actually, we had a review coming from somebody, I think it was like the cedar names like Wood Dude.

Speaker 3: 13:30

Oh, yes, I saw that.

Speaker 2: 13:31

Yeah, and they actually titled it Morning Morning.

Speaker 1: 13:35

Oh, I didn't say that Morning morning, morning morning.

Speaker 2: 13:39

Yeah, so yeah, that was quite fun actually. Morning morning, morning morning, anyways, morning morning, everybody, morning morning. Today's episode is incredibly difficult to listen to. So, viewer, listener, viewer, wherever you are hearing this, seeing this, I'll just wave in. Oh, you've got self signal to stop. Thought about that after. Yeah, today's episode, viewer, listener, discretion is advised because it does cover very horrific topics and a lot of rape and murder, okay, all the scary, horrible stuff.

Speaker 2: 14:32

Yeah, and as awful as it is, you know there's a reason that we listen to these and it is morbid curiosity. So, as horrible as it is, they're still part of you. That goes I need to listen to it. And that's exactly the same with this case. This case is the worst thing I've ever come across, but it's that morbid curiosity, so okay.

Speaker 1: 14:55

Thank you for the advisory.

Speaker 2: 14:58

You are welcome, right, let's go. So today's story the monster in the morgue Sounds hideous. Yes, it's going to take a bit of a different turn, oh, so you're going to have no idea what I'm talking about until it gets to the end, right? So I'm going to tell you about Wendy Nell. So Wendy Nell was 25 years old, she was attractive, she was a talented young woman, she worked incredibly hard at a job and she worked as a store manager of Super Snaps. And Super Snaps is an old like camera printing thing when you used to have reels of film and stuff used to go to Super Snaps and get them all printed out. So she was a store manager of this. She'd worked her way up by the age of 25, was running the store and she'd already been divorced. And after divorcing from her first husband, wendy had moved into a really small run down bedside in Guildford Road, tumbridge Wells in Kent, and she absolutely hated it there. You know it was the smallest little bedside ever and she was embarrassed to live there and she didn't invite anybody over and not a lot of people knew that she lived there.

Speaker 2: 16:40

And Monday, the 22nd of June 1987, for Wendy the day started out as any normal Monday would do, and she was up at breakfast by 8 30. And then she made her 15 minute journey to Super Snaps, ready to open the store for nine o'clock, and it wasn't a very eventful day. She had a new employee that had started that day, so she was basically just like showing her the ropes and showing her around and giving her a rundown of how everything worked at Super Snaps. And the store closed at 5 30. Wendy made her way back home and her evening consisted of going to the laundrette. So she went home from work, she got all the dirty washing together and then she left the bedside to go to the laundrette. But as she did so, she forgot to close her bedroom window. She had a faulty latch on her bedroom so it was a very difficult to close. So it wasn't something she actually even thought about and so she left it off the latch because it wasn't. It wasn't working. Hmm, after finishing at the laundrette, she walked to her boyfriend's house at around eight o'clock and she'd been seeing Ian for quite a while now and he was a really good guy and he spoiled her and he used to take her out on his motorbike, so that was always something that she really enjoyed was that he put her on the back of a motorbike and they'd always go out on dates and stuff and she stayed at Ian's watching TV until around 11 o'clock. But then she couldn't stay up too late. She had worked the next day and so she got on the back of Ian's motorbike and he then took her the 10 minute journey home. And Ian didn't walk Wendy in that night. He gave her a small kiss on the cheek at the door and then said he's goodbyes and left.

Speaker 2: 18:38

The next morning Wendy didn't turn up for work. Her employees hadn't heard anything from her and that she was the store manager. So it's incredibly unlikely for her just to not turn up or not let anybody know. So employees were really worried and they called Ian and Ian hadn't heard from her that morning. So he immediately drove round to her bedside and he knocked on the door multiple times. He assumed that she'd overslept, so he was knocking quite loudly to try and wake her up. And when he didn't get any answer from her, he went round the back of the bedside where, through her open bedroom window, he saw his girlfriend lying completely naked, bloody and beaten dead on her bed. Wendy had been savagely raped, beaten and strangled to death, oh God. So Ian immediately phoned the police.

Speaker 2: 19:36

During the investigation, police found that the killer likely had entered through that open bedroom window and then he'd laid in wait for her to return home. They also found that Wendy's door keys were missing, but they didn't know why. They found sperm from the killer on her body and a very distinct bloody shoe print on the cuff of her white blouse. The killer had trodden in her blood at some point and then the white black was a very white blouse, so it made a perfect canvas for this bloody shoe print, goodness. But DNA back then wasn't as advanced as it was now. So the sperm sample was sent to forensic and the killer's DNA was stored for future use. And that in itself is key to this episode, because police knew that advancements in technology were happening all the time. Things had come so far already and they were confident that one day they would be able to use that sperm sample to be able to catch their killer. And that was stored away and then forgotten about. The case went cold very quickly.

Speaker 2: 20:55

Caroline Pierce was a very bubbly outgoing girl and at 20 she was the manager of Buster Browns in Camden Road, tumbridge Wells in Kent and this was a very small American style diner and it was incredibly popular. And Tuesday, the 24th of November 1987, caroline went to work as normal that day. She finished early and then walked home to her ground floor bedside room in Grove and a park just one mile away from Wendy's bedside. She had planned to go out that evening with her friends. So she quickly got changed into her favorite outfit and it was a long black skirt, a red long sleeved jumper and tights. And she went out with her friends.

Speaker 2: 21:41

She had a lovely evening and when it was time to leave she called a taxi and the taxi took Caroline back to her bedside around midnight and the taxi dropped her off at the door and then left. And when Caroline didn't turn up for work the next day, her colleagues again she was the manager there, so it was very unlikely that she was just going to not turn up and not let anybody know. So her colleagues actually called the police to report her missing. Police went to her bedside but they found it completely empty. There was no signs of foul play. There was no signs of a break in, and so police conducted a house to house inquiry. They went to all the neighbours up the road and it was like have you seen anything out of the ordinary?

Speaker 2: 22:32

And a neighbour told police that shortly after midnight she'd heard a woman scream no, no, and then heard sobbing and then, nothing, and other neighbours had said that they'd seen a strange car parked at the dead end and there'd been no one in the car. This car, it was a, because you know when you're at a dead end. You know all of the cars that come up and down.

Speaker 1: 22:57

I live in a little cul-de-sac.

Speaker 2: 22:58

I know whose car it is.

Speaker 2: 22:59

So if there was a random car, that would be something of note. So the neighbours had seen this random car there and there'd been nobody in it and it'd been there for a few hours and then shortly after midnight they'd seen it reversing back up the hill. And after Wendy's murder a few months prior, women had actually been informed of a prowler in the area. Other women had said that they'd had strange interactions or they felt like people had been in their home, and so the women had been told to be on alert. And Caroline had actually heard that advice and then had all of the locks on her window changed in response to Wendy's murder. But there was absolutely no evidence to suggest that Caroline had come to any harm. She just wasn't at home and she was missing. Her house keys and all of her belongings that she'd taken out with her that night weren't found at the bedside, so it kind of looked as if she hadn't come home.

Speaker 2: 24:07

Exactly, but the taxi driver knew that he'd dropped her off at the door, so it looked like she'd just left the house willingly. She'd got all of her stuff with her a bag, a keys, everything. Three weeks later, on December 15th, a farm worker working in a marsh 40 miles away from where Carolina disappeared, found her naked body in a drainage ditch, and he only located her body. Because he was in a tractor and because of how high up he was, he was able to see down into the ditch.

Speaker 2: 24:40

So, otherwise she might not have been discovered for ages, but her naked body was in this drainage ditch. Her tights were off of her body, next to her, her bag was found not far away, but her house keys were never located and, like Wendy, she was completely naked, beaten and savagely raped. But due to the composition and the fact that she was found in water, there was no never any DNA that had been recovered. But police did link the two murders to the same killer. The MO was the same the fact that these that they'd both been beaten and raped and they had actually both been raped after they had died. The girls' deaths were incredibly similar and both girls had the things missing their personal belongings, missing, their house keys.

Speaker 2: 25:40

The media actually dubbed the murderer the bed-sit killer and they warned women to be wary and to stay on high alert, especially if they were living in ground floor bed-sits. However, after Caroline's murder, no more women were killed in that way or no more women were found to be linked to the bed-sit killer, and Wendy Neal and Caroline Pierce's murders remained unsolved In 2007,. So, 20 years on, with the advancement in technology, detective Chief Inspector Anne Britton, who was now leading that case at the time, she released details to the press that the police now had a full DNA profile of the Tom Bridgewell's bed-sit killer and with this information they could then enter it into the database to see if it matched any other DNA that had been on there. So if the killer had committed any other offences where his DNA had been found at the crime scene, or if he'd been arrested and his DNA had been fingerprints taken or his DNA swabbed in his mouth that would all have been entered into the database and it would have come back as a match, but police actually had no luck.

Speaker 2: 27:07

So, despite there being over four million DNA samples already on the database, no matches came back.

Speaker 2: 27:16

But the police didn't give up because with the cold cases, there's always somebody assigned to the cold cases to go through them. So every year the DNA was re-entered into the system or people would go into the system and run it again with the hope of finding a match. And in 2020, with the development of new technology, police were able to use familial DNA to try and get a match. So familial DNA if nobody is kind of aware of it, it's basically anybody that is related to that DNA. They use systems like Ancestry or all of the websites that you put your DNA into to try and find your link or to find lost siblings or lost relatives. They actually use those sites to try and get a match on the DNA, which is fantastically clever, and police were able to identify a relative of the killer and they then compiled. It came back with a match that this DNA was related to this person who had entered it on Ancestry, but they didn't know. They had to then go through the family tree.

Speaker 1: 28:37

So they didn't know what relative it was.

Speaker 2: 28:40

They had a list of a thousand possible suspects and they then narrowed it down to around 80 possible suspects and they studied the family tree and they looked at individuals that were working in the area of Tumbridge Wells, that were living in that area at the time and that would be about the same or the correct age, so wouldn't be in their 80s or 90s but would be the age of the profile that they'd created and they managed to find one person that ticked all of those boxes. Who was it? Born in? 1954 in Kent, David Fuller had a what you would think of as just a seemingly uneventful childhood. At school he'd been in trouble with police for stealing bikes and damaging property with fires, and as an adult he trained as an electrician and a maintenance man while working in the Navy shipyards of Portsmouth In 1973 and 1977, he was arrested for Creeper home burglaries.

Speaker 2: 29:46

That involved him breaking in through ground floor rear windows. And I looked up what a Creeper home burglary was because, didn't know, and Creeper burglaries are done while the occupants are at home asleep. Oh, that's horrible. No, he is creeping in to their home. So they're actually in quite a different league to a normal burglary, really Just going in not wanting to be caught and stealing stuff, and I can guarantee that he went into these homes without the intention of actually burglarising them. But if he's going in while people are asleep, that's a very different thing than actually burglarising somebody.

Speaker 1: 30:30

It's a bit more of a rush for them where they think I could bump into someone any second and any normal burglar would just want to get in, get the shit and get out.

Speaker 2: 30:45

But not for David Fuller. So he was also tried for 23 other offences. So in 1973 and 77, he was arrested for these Creeper burglaries and he also tried for 23 other offences which I actually couldn't find any details of, but for whatever reason, he avoided jail time. What? There was a lot of offences there and he managed to avoid jail time and by 2020, and he was now 65, and he was living in Heathfield, west Sussex, with his third wife and teenage son when police knocked at his door on the 3rd of December 2020.

Speaker 3: 31:28

They had this to say David, if you listen to what I'm going to say, we're from Kent Police and we're investigating the murders of Wendy Nell and Caroline Pierce in 1987.

Speaker 3: 32:07

As part of that investigation, you've been linked as a suspect, both geographically and for injured. If you listen to what my colleagues are going to say to you, Right, David, you're under arrest on suspicion of the murders of Wendy Nell and Caroline Pierce in 1987. Do you understand? You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later lie on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence. You are being arrested it's a secure and preserved evidence by the means of questioning so we can conduct searches, so forensic samples can be attained and to prevent your disappearance. Do you understand?

Speaker 2: 32:49

So the audio comes with a visual as well. So I've watched the video because in 2020, all policemen wear a dash cam, didn't they? Oh yeah, the body cam, body cam. So a lot of this you can see. But I've taken the audio for you and if you can't hear it properly, basically the police knock on his door and David's reaction, which you can't really hear because he's incredibly softly spoken he goes oh, blimey, and three you, oh, oh, blimey, blimey. Such a British thing to do, oh go blimey, go blimey.

Speaker 1: 33:28

What are you?

Speaker 2: 33:28

doing here Morning morning. So three uniformed officers are at his door and they come into the house and David says that his wife of 20 years is upstairs asleep, and then he sits on the sofa while he listens to these police arrest him and then the police say in this arrest that because he's been arrested for these murders, they have the right to search his home. David is then taken to the Kent police station and interviewed and he denies the two murders that he's being charged with. But police know that they've got their man because they've got his DNA, they've linked him to the crimes and the chances of it being someone else are one billion to one. So it absolutely is him. It was him, it actually absolutely is him and he was actually his brother's DNA that had linked it back to him. So his brother had uploaded his DNA to one of those sites and it provided police with that link to David.

Speaker 1: 34:36

Right, so you've got a family member. That's like no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to go on ancestrycom and I don't want you to, or it, what the hell.

Speaker 2: 34:48

That blows my mind, the fact that police back in 1987 saved that DNA, hoping one day for this exact outcome. And it just blows my mind. But David, despite the one billion to one of it being someone who was, like it, dead to rights, was him Absolutely. David denied everything. He denied knowing anything about the town of Tumbridge Wells. He said don't know it, never been, never heard of it, never been. However, it was the next town over from where he was living, it was walking distance from where he was living, but Tumbridge Wells, never heard of it.

Speaker 1: 35:28

That I don't know. You've heard of it. Yeah, what country is?

Speaker 2: 35:31

that. Yeah, dive, what's the name. Again, when asked if he'd ever seen Wendy or Caroline, david had said no. When asked if he'd ever been to Buster Brown's restaurant or Super Snaps, david had said no. Meanwhile, police were at his home conducting a very thorough search. They found that David actually fanced himself as a bit of a photographer and he had hundreds of thousands of photos. Oh goodness, david kept piles of old computers, old hard drives, disks, floppy disks, phones, and he had 34,000 printed photographs. He had obsessively recorded his life Obsessively and we know serial killers generally have an obsessive, compulsive nature to them and that came back to bite him completely in the ass. Good, he had invoices that he had issued as a maintenance man and an electrician throughout his career. That invoiced two Tumbridge Wells, the area that he's never heard of, never worked, never been in. Oh, david, he had diaries detailing nights out at different locations that he's been to, please say it.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Like Buster Brown's yes, in your face. David Fuller. He had photos showing him riding with a cycling club. He was very popular of his cycling club. He had photos of different birds because he was a twitcher. So a twitcher is somebody that through their binoculars, watches birds and stalks them, stalks them, stalks the birds, stalks the birds? Yep, they probably didn't. They Stalks the birds. So through this obsession, police discovered that actually he had worked in and around Tumbridge Wells throughout most of his life. What a secret. Police found dozens of super snaps, envelopes where he had visited to get his photos developed, but never been to super snaps.

Speaker 1: 37:59

Never heard of it, never Tumbridge Wells. What, who, earth? What do you mean?

Speaker 2: 38:06

It was there, while at super snaps that he was, came into contact with Wendy Nell and he went there to get his photos developed. And now I can only imagine you know she would have no idea that he's come it in with the potential that he's actually like stalking her and following her and he's going to break into her apartment and then eventually kill her. But that is what he done. He kind of stalked his victims and then murdered them, and they also found diary entries that put him at Buster Brown's restaurant where Caroline Pierce had worked, and police found that he had actually lived on the same road as Wendy in the 70s and 80s and that was before she had moved in. But it just went to show that actually he did know the area. He does know Tumbridge Wells because he did live there. What an idiot.

Speaker 2: 39:06

And when interviewing other people from his cycling club they described routes that they would take on these different cycling things, and one of the routes that were quite a popular route for them to go down was around the marshes where Caroline's body had been found.

Speaker 2: 39:23

This also found a photo of David from the 80s Now. In this photo he's lying face down on a picnic blanket and he's got his top off, he's got his trousers on, he's got his socks on and he's got his shoes on Because he's lying face down. The soles of his shoes are very clearly visible and they are very distinct. They are a very distinct set of tread on these shoes and police were able to match it up 100%. They worked with Clarks, who were the creator of these shoes, and they matched it to the footprint, the bloody footprint that was found on Wendy's blouse. His fingerprints had also been found at these scene of Wendy's. He'd left a partial print behind on a bag and that matched his left one of his fingers on his left hand and the DNA his semen. It matched you know dead to rights. That absolutely was him. Police had finally found their killer after 33 years. But what police also found was perhaps even more disturbing.

Speaker 1: 40:37

Oh no. What can be more disturbing than that?

Speaker 2: 40:41

I will tell you. At his house police found a plethora of computer hardware and I say that word, I've incorporated it a plethora, because there is not a word to describe.

Speaker 1: 40:55

I appreciate that word, but I'm nervous about what's coming next.

Speaker 2: 41:00

So hoarded since the 80s. There was a huge amount of computer hardware, including hundreds of hard drives, memory cards, 2200 obsolete storage disks and the 34000 printed images that they'd found. He also had 30 mobile phones with SIM cards. As experts trawled through this data, you can imagine how much data there was. They found more than 14 million images of sex offenses, with a persistent theme of rape, abuse and murder of women, and this was the most horrendous type of abuse that you could find. He had child pornography ranging from category A to category C. So category A is the most severe level of child pornography that you can have. He had snuff videos. He had a favourite like a webling that he'd favourite it, which included the words torture, murder, snuff video. So there was just no kind of end to the things that he was looking at. It ranged from child pornography to the rape of women to the murder of women. It covered a whole array of sick things. They then found four more hard drives containing thousands of videos and images and they were taped behind a little cabinet in his makeshift home office. So if you can't hear that properly, the detective is, you know you can see it all. You can actually see the footage of this from the body cam and they're searching through David's home office and they find some photos and the police officer says these ones he's taken himself. And then he looks closer at the photo and he says why does that person look? And then the other officer says dead, oh no.

Speaker 2: 43:31

Something else you should know about David Fuller is that in 1988 he got a job working as a maintenance man at the Kenton Sussex Hospital. He managed to get the job by bypassing the hospital criminal record search because he'd been convicted or not convicted, but he'd been charged with these creeper, burglaries and whatever else. Yeah, so he had a criminal record. But at that time in the 80s, it was down to the employee to disclose whether or not they had a criminal record. Brilliant, so it was down to the criminal to be honest about their crimes. Oh the irony, knowing that it would affect their job application. There's a lot about this. I don't know if you can tell, but it makes me angry. Yeah, there's a lot about this episode that I just can't wrap my head around.

Speaker 1: 44:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:23

Just absolutely baffles me. And somebody at some point sat down and said, right on the bottom of this application we're going to have a tick box to say have you got a criminal offence? And we're not going to do any searches, but we're going to make sure we're going to let the criminal tick the box.

Speaker 1: 44:40

Yeah, the possible criminal. Be honest about it.

Speaker 2: 44:43

So a pedophile wanting to work at a nursery would have to disclose that they were on the sex offenders register if they wanted to apply for that job. Do you think they're going to do that?

Speaker 1: 44:58

No, I'm sure they'd be honest.

Speaker 2: 45:00

Yeah, or a thief wanting to work at a bank. How to disclose that they were predisposed to stealing stuff. So it's just so backwards, isn't it, honestly, honestly. So nevertheless, david didn't tick that he had a criminal record and he got a job.

Speaker 3: 45:17

What you know what?

Speaker 2: 45:19

He got a job as a maintenance man in this hospital, where he worked there from 1988 to July 2011, where that then closed down and he was then moved to work at the Pembury Hospital as a maintenance supervisor, and this supervisor role gave him an access all areas swipe card throughout the hospital, including the morgue. Oh jeez, david had been having sex with the dead people spanning decades and capturing it all on his own camera. When detectives looked at the hard drives closer, they found that on one alone, on one hard drive, there was over 800,000 images of David, you know with, doing what he was doing and 500 videos that David had himself recorded with his victims. Stuff at the hospital worked from 8 till 4 and David now, when I looked this up, I found two different things. David either worked the night shift, which meant he was working 11pm till 7am, which meant he had a huge window of opportunity there when there's no stuff at the morgue, or it said that he worked from 11am to 7pm, which meant that he had a three hour window.

Speaker 2: 46:47

So I don't know which one's true, but regardless, he had access to the morgue uninterrupted, and David knew that once the morgue workers left at 4pm, nobody came down to the morgue so. But if he was spotted, david always made sure that he carried his maintenance equipment with him. No one would question why he? Why are you going down to the morgue, though, would they? If you saw somebody going down there, you absolutely wouldn't suspect them of doing the sort of things that David was doing. You know that level of depravity is on a completely different level, so you just your brain wouldn't go there and go. He's been down to the morgue a while.

Speaker 1: 47:33

You would not connect the dots. I remember when I was in my early 20s, someone saying to me if you walk with purpose, like if you walk like you're not doing anything dodgy, you're not doing anything dodgy and you've, you know, you're just going about your business and that you can get away with a lot. And I actually put that into practice by walking into a. It was like a business seminar and I was I think I was only like 20 or something at the time and I couldn't afford to actually pay for the seminar but I literally just sort of put my head down and just walked straight past all the security, like I had, you know, every right to be there and, yeah, I went in and I attended the whole seminar and everything.

Speaker 2: 48:22

Because only you know what you're doing, only you know that you're doing something wrong, nobody else does.

Speaker 1: 48:27

Yeah. So as I walked past security, I just went hi, yeah, and morning and just that and just carried on walking.

Speaker 2: 48:34

Yeah, it was great, and note to everybody else, though, that does not work at the airport.

Speaker 1: 48:39

No that is frowned upon you can't do that.

Speaker 2: 48:42

You? Yeah, you can't do that you you morning. Yeah, I haven't got anything up along here, I just can't just get on the plane, yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:50

Yeah, I mean, it was different age, different era when I was, when I was 20. So, yeah, don't, don't try it now, it's not advisable.

Speaker 2: 48:59

So David knew that he basically could get away with what he was doing and he was really arrogant about what he did and, based on the the, the videos, these weren't rushed visits. He absolutely was not worried about getting caught. He spent a lot of time down there. You know. He carried all of his camera equipment down there and he set up his camera and he would pose his victims and then obsessively catalog his abuse. And the catalog of abuse spanned back to 2005, from 2005 until a few weeks before his arrest. So he had a huge amount and I can only imagine that he probably went back further. But yeah, he didn't have that catalog there or, you know, it's still hidden somewhere. But you don't just start in 2005.

Speaker 2: 49:53

And it took nine officers five months to work through this catalog of abuse. So the digital material that they had to go through included 1300 CDs, 2200 floppy disks and the 30 mobiles, 3400 photos. There was lots of negatives, there was camera film rolls that hadn't been developed, there was like slides. So it took them five months to work through all of this. The contents on the hard drives that they had found hidden equated to 23 terabytes of digital material. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2: 50:34

That is so much. That is so much, so it goes. What is it like? Gigabyte megabyte, or megabyte gigabyte, terabyte? Yeah gigabyte. This is something before a terabyte, so terabyte is the most amount of storage that you can get. Like one terabyte is a huge amount of storage and the fact that this equated to 23 terabytes is astounding.

Speaker 1: 50:58

Yeah, and that's going to be 23 terabytes of hideous stuff. Yeah, so I can't even imagine what the police must have been going through for that whole five months.

Speaker 2: 51:11

Well, this is separate. It took them five months to go through that digital material.

Speaker 1: 51:16

Oh, I see.

Speaker 2: 51:17

The CDs, the floppy disks, whatever else, these 23 terabytes of digital material. It took six officers, working on four specially purchased high powered machines, 12 months to process 95% of the material. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1: 51:33

What a horrible, horrible year for them.

Speaker 2: 51:36

Yeah, they just horrendous. And it showed David abusing girls and women, the youngest of which was nine years old and the oldest of which was 100. They showed David abusing people that had only been dead for hours. Some of them still had medical equipment attached to their bodies that had been used to try to save their life. Oh, it makes me human. They showed David abusing people that had catastrophic injuries from self harm, from, you know, car accidents. They showed David consistently and obsessively abusing the same corpses on multiple occasions, before their autopsies. After their autopsies, they showed David manhandling their bodies into positions, some of which he spread across doorways and abused others on chairs, on the floor, on the morgue tables. They showed David removing bodies from body bags, removing clothing and items left by loved ones. His abuse knew no bounds.

Speaker 2: 52:56

Along with his obsessive catalogue of abuse, police found on these hard drives that David also had copied down the morgue logbook and meticulously indexed each of his victims by their name and age.

Speaker 2: 53:11

One of the folders on this hard drive was labelled best yet and had a further 36 subfolders in each with a name and an age.

Speaker 2: 53:24

Police also found evidence that once David settled on a new victim, he then became obsessed with them and needed to find out all about their lives, so he would access their social media accounts and download their photos from when they were alive. Police found that there was no CCTV footage of David committing these crimes. Police trawled through 150,000 hours of CCTV to track his movements around the hospital to the morgue, but not in the morgue, because the morgue didn't have CCTV, and that was a choice made by the hospital to preserve the dignity of the dead in their final moments. What they did find was that David had used his keycard to access the morgue thousands of times. In one year alone, he accessed the morgue 440 times. That's more than once a day. If anybody had looked into the use of his keycard, they would have seen how many times he'd accessed the morgue. But would they have second guessed it? Would they have any idea what he was doing down there in that morgue?

Speaker 1: 54:39

I don't think any human being would expect that.

Speaker 2: 54:44

Never, absolutely not, and that's why you managed to get away with it for so long, because never in your wildest imagination would you think that somebody is going down the morgue to commit what he was committing. On the footage that David had recorded himself, police managed to identify 102 different victims that he'd abused from 2008. So by watching these videos really carefully and meticulously, police were able to freeze frame certain points and they sometimes were able to identify the actual patient ID response with their hospital number on. They were able to identify birthmarks, tattoos and then go on to from the list that David had copied out from the morgue, then identify who belonged to who 102 bodies, 102 victims they managed to identify, but in actuality the count was much, much higher, was so much higher, and many of his victims remained unidentified. But for those that were identified, family members had to be informed and some of these people were died in tragic, like unexpected ways, like really suddenly. So parents had already received a visit from the police telling them the worst possible news that they can imagine, and then to get another visit telling them the worst possible news that they can imagine. It's almost essentially getting that visit again to tell them all over again what had happened to their loved ones. Oh, it's just yeah.

Speaker 2: 56:35

The mother of the nine year old girl that he sexually abused spoke out in court and she told everyone how she had visited her daughter's body in the morgue and laid down a handwritten note on her tiny body, along with her favourite toys, teddies and some flowers, and she told everyone how David had to remove all of those items in order to carry out his abuse on that little girl. The mother of another victim, a 28 year old girl who had died by accidentally falling from a bridge after fleeing from a car when it burst into flame, she told how she had visited her daughter just hours after her daughter had been sexually abused by David, and she said I'd spent two wonderful hours in the mortuary sleeping with her, and that gave me some sort of comfort. Little did I know that my daughter had been violated prior to that day and of the evening of that day. So whilst I'm stroking my daughter's hair and sleeping on her hair, a man had crawled all over her skin and there's me kissing and cuddling and saying my last goodbyes.

Speaker 2: 57:51

The key card lock from the hospital, plus David's meticulous record keeping, meant that police were able to find out exact dates and times that he carried out the abuse on his victims. So whilst some family members didn't want to hear details of the abuse, some did. So this mother in particular wanted to know all the facts. She wanted to know exactly what had happened to her daughter and exactly the times, she said, because she didn't want to waste her time and energy imagining what happened when, like you know how often it had happened and when it had happened and for how long it had happened, and you know what had actually happened. So once she knew the facts, she could concentrate on that. And that is how she found out that David had abused her daughter just hours before she went and sat with her. So once she found out exactly what he had done to her daughter, she grabbed the biggest kitchen knife she could find and she went down to the police station where David was being held and she intended to kill him and unfortunately she was stopped and she was disarmed and she was arrested and she was kept in a cell for 34 hours. She said that she is 99.99% sure that had she been able to confront David, she would have put the knife straight through his heart, because that is what he had done to her. She said that once police found out why she was at the station with a knife, they became a lot more sympathetic to her. And one police officer she said that what the one police officer was taking her fingerprints in her ID and she was actually crying while she was doing that because they'd never heard of something so abhorrent and so deranged.

Speaker 2: 59:52

So David Fuller actually fully admitted to the sexual abuse of his victims In his police interview. Again, you can watch all of these interviews. He's very, very meek, he's very softly spoken and when you watch it he comes across as being quite ashamed. Perhaps I'm not saying he is ashamed, I'm saying he comes across as ashamed. He comes across as being quite maybe embarrassed by it, because he actually says you know, I'm admitting to what you're saying, but I don't want to go into details. And the officer says to him what is it that you're admitting to? And he says as you've just described to me, and the officer says what do you mean in terms of the sexual penetration of corpses? And he's kind of like looking down and he just kind of mumbles and he just goes yeah. So I don't think at all that he's ashamed or embarrassed, but that is how it's coming across in the interviews. Well, I mean he might be.

Speaker 1: 1:01:04

He might be ashamed and embarrassed, but obviously he didn't stop him doing it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:08

Yeah, couldn't give a shit how he feels.

Speaker 1: 1:01:10

The title is correct for your episode Monster.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

Yeah, there's no other way to kind of describe it. But he actually tells police that he didn't do any of it for sexual gratification? Oh, of course not. He goes on to tell police that he's not insane. He said I'm not insane, but I do know, I am aware that I do have some sort of personality disorder. Now, I wouldn't say that you had a personality disorder, no, but that's what he says. He admits to the sexual, the abuse of his victims and then, despite the overwhelming evidence against him for the murders of Wendy Nell and Caroline Pierce, he still denied that he had anything to do with their murders, until the fourth day of his trial, where he did actually change his plea to guilty and he did admit to the murders of Wendy and Caroline. David was charged with 53 different charges. So he received two life sentences for the murders of Wendy Nell and Caroline Pierce, but for the rape and sexual abuse of 102 women he received a maximum sentence of 12 years. Why? Because for the crime of necrophilia it carries a maximum term of two years oh, two.

Speaker 1: 1:02:45

So this is what really, this desecration of these people's bodies and these children's bodies, right.

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

So some dealers get more than two years. Okay, assault with a deadly weapon gets more than two years. The crime of necrophilia does not carry a sentence that it is worthy of. Because when that mother of that nine-year-old girl said you raped my daughter and I'm calling it rape because she didn't say she couldn't- say no she did not.

Speaker 2: 1:03:21

She could not say no, and that's exactly what it is. But it carries a maximum term of two years, so there is no telling how many women David Fuller actually abused in his time working at the hospitals. His access to the morgue was never limited. He had an access all areas wipe card and he could use that whenever the fuck he wanted.

Speaker 1: 1:03:46

Which I bet was all the time.

Speaker 2: 1:03:48

So his catalogue of abuse went back from 2005. They then charged him from the offenses from 2008. But he started working in these hospitals in 1988. And that was a year after the murders of Caroline Pierce and Wendy Nell.

Speaker 1: 1:04:07

Which he didn't get caught for.

Speaker 2: 1:04:08

So yeah, had the police not have kept his DNA from 1987, they would never have unearthed what he was doing, and to this day. I've absolutely no qualms about the fact that he would still be abusing women to this day.

Speaker 1: 1:04:27

Oh definitely, yeah, definitely. You're not just going to stop, are you? If no one stops you?

Speaker 2: 1:04:33

At his sentence. In hearing the judge spoke and she said you committed acts of the deepest darkness. Having killed two young women who were full of the promise of life, you then became a vulture, picking your victims from among the dead within the ideal world of hospital mortuaries which were left free to inhabit simply because you had a swipe card. My question to you is why did David Fuller stop killing? Because he started off. He killed Wendy Nell and Caroline Pierce and then he abused their bodies once they were dead. He then went on to abuse hundreds and hundreds of dead women. But I wanted a discussion with you around.

Speaker 1: 1:05:27

Well, I think that's his thing. I don't think it was about the killing. I think it's similar to like Jeffrey Dahmer, and he said the same thing the act was a means to an end. It wasn't. It was a means to get what I wanted. Yeah, I didn't enjoy the killing. It was just what I had to do to then get this body that I could lay next to and put my head on. And yeah, and I think it's similar with him.

Speaker 2: 1:05:53

But then you've also got the added thing of all the snuff videos and the murder videos that he was watching. Maybe that was enough.

Speaker 1: 1:06:05

Maybe it was enough for him, maybe he didn't actually enjoy the fear of, like, the killing, or you know the fact that he, maybe he nearly got caught, or I don't know. I think it comes down to the fact that that's ultimately what he wanted, because when he found that he was able to have access to the morgue and get then and they were all there ready like for him as he saw it, yeah, why would he need to take the additional risk of actually trying to like stalk girls and yeah, down and all that? Maybe just thought do you know what? That's too much hard work, but this is great, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:46

And these women that he murdered were savagely beaten. It wasn't just a, you know, a quick kill. If it was a means to an end, you do, you know, the quickest possible of that because you don't want to get. Yeah, that's not what you enjoy.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

Maybe it was like a panic thing. Maybe he thought, oh, I didn't, I didn't realize that, you know, they would struggle this much, or you know, and he went into a blind panic and, like, savagely, beat them to death and thought, blimey, that was, that was hideous. But maybe it was just her. I'll try it again with someone else and maybe it'll be easier. Maybe he did try to kill the second girl, maybe, like you know, a bit calmer or something, and she was, you know, feisty and fighting back, and he ended up beating her savagely to death. And then, for do you know what? They fight back so much that I end up, you know, having to beat them to death, and that's not what I want, but I don't know.

Speaker 2: 1:07:50

Also the random blum at the beginning, and I know that only covered the US, but there was 222,000 unsolved serial killer crimes, so the there is going to be a number less than that in the UK. So perhaps did he change his MO and kill women in a different way, so the crimes were never linked.

Speaker 1: 1:08:10

Yeah, yeah, maybe he didn't stop it too, maybe he just carried on and it was never linked and he wasn't ever caught for those.

Speaker 2: 1:08:19

Yeah, perhaps, but Dave, to this day, david still retains the fact that he got no sexual gratification out of what he did, despite the fact that there was video evidence of him, you know, ejaculating. And that's bullshit. Yeah, it absolutely is bullshit. But David Fuller is Britain's most prolific sex offender.

Speaker 1: 1:08:41

I just honestly, I feel really lost for words with this one, other than the fact that I am going to say to you, sarah, this is the worst, most horrific story we have done on the podcast, in my opinion. Honestly, this in particular has disturbed me.

Speaker 2: 1:09:04

So that I really wanted to cover this case, because it is just so perplexing to me in nature, because obviously, for one, I don't understand it. No To the fact that that was allowed to happen for so long. Three, the fact that the maximum sentence he got for that alone was 12 years. Just disgraceful.

Speaker 1: 1:09:27

Everything about this graceful.

Speaker 2: 1:09:29

It really, really baffled me, and I know it's horrendous and I know that it's grotesque, but it's one of those things that it needs to be kind of brought to life, because yeah, it's similar to what I said to you at the beginning.

Speaker 1: 1:09:49

It's that not not being able to understand, and the world is actually a really, really scary place, because there's really scary monsters. There's actual, real monsters that roam this earth and most people don't know that they're monsters until it's the end of them, you know, and then they sort of go. Oh, I never thought he was like that. He seemed like a really nice bloke and you know, and he's why it's being absolute beast.

Speaker 2: 1:10:23

His wife was absolutely destroyed. Oh, I can't imagine. No, he had three children as well, so he was living with his teenage son at the time, but he had three children and his wife, this you know 60 year old woman who thought that her husband was her husband, had been doing all of that for years and years, and years and years and had cataloged it and kept it in their home.

Speaker 1: 1:10:48

Yeah, it's just another level of depravity, and it's so perplexing that story to me, so much so that I really just don't know what to say, which I know is rubbish because we're doing a podcast where we talk about things that are perplexing. But I really am lost for words on this one. I just don't understand to such a massive degree where I'm like I just I can't even begin to wrap my head around why someone would want to do that, why they would carry it out, how they wouldn't get caught for all those years. Just every part of it, I think, is just it just blows my mind, because I'm like I don't understand how the human brain works to make you crave doing something like that, because and have no guilt about it, but he knew that it was wrong, because he hid the four hard drives that contained the the videos and images that he took alone.

Speaker 2: 1:11:54

He hid those so that I don't know that he knew what he was doing was wrong.

Speaker 1: 1:11:58

Yeah, I think I think you can know that something's wrong, but I think having guilt about it is the thing that stops you from doing it. I don't get it, but yes, I'm, I'm disturbed by it and it's it's morning, but I need to go and maybe have a whiskey.

Speaker 2: 1:12:18

Well, I'm apologies for the the dark nature of this episode yeah, that was horrendous.

Speaker 1: 1:12:25

You told it really well and I could follow along with it, like you know, like the story, but I think maybe that's probably what's made it so disturbing, because I have all this in my head now. Yeah, sorry, no great job, but hideous story. Go do something good good for yourself today.

Speaker 2: 1:12:46

Yeah, I am drinking my self, care self care people.

Speaker 1: 1:12:50

Yeah, everyone. Go and do something that makes you feel better can have a bath. I feel like I need a bath yeah, yeah, just wash off all that scusties. Not okay scusties, not okay scusties, the worst kind of scusties. Yeah, oh well, thanks for that.

Speaker 3: 1:13:12

Welcome, I'm gonna go and drink myself into a stupor.

Speaker 2: 1:13:15

Bye, bye, bye if you have enjoyed listening to our episodes, make sure you rate us and leave us a review, on whatever platform you are listening we absolutely love hearing from you guys, so you can also help support our show by donating to our Buy Me a Coffee link.

Speaker 1: 1:13:36

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Speaker 2: 1:13:46

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