Women with Neurodivergence and How They Are Often Overlooked

Statistics show that when considering neurodiversity, girls and women often get overlooked. Things are improving, but still have a ways to go.  In the 1990's 1 girl for every 9 boys was diagnosed with ADHD. By 2020 that number grew to 1 for every 2.5 boys.

Girls often get missed because they are not the "classroom distraction" or "hyperactive". Girls present their symptoms differently and if not recognized or diagnosed, a girl can grow into a woman with a lot of negative feelings about herself because she doesn't know her brain is simply working differently than is typical.  Girls also often find coping mechanisms to get through the day and their neurodiverse traits can get missed.

Today I interview Kat Vandy, a scientist and professor who happens to have ADHD. She also is raising a daughter with ADHD and severe anxiety disorder. Life can be volatile at her house (sounds familiar!) as she and her husband work hard at raising their tricky kid. 

A Podcast for People Raising Tricky Kids

Transcript

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  Hi villagers. Welcome back to where the F is my village. I'm glad you're here. We've got a special guest today. A friend of mine named Kat Vandy. Kat is a scientist and a professor and she happens to have ADHD. At her house, she deals with similar things to us. The main difference though is it is with her daughter.

So today we're going to be talking about neurodiversity in girls and women, and how often it's missed and why it's very important to be something , that people look for. And we have a really good conversation just kind of about our, the challenges we have, hypervigilance, girls going undiagnosed and the repercussions of that, and kind of how you go from having ADHD to all the way to getting your doctorate.

So, without further ado, here is Cat.

Okay, villagers, I am here with Cat Vandy. Hi, Cat.

Hello. How are you doing today?

I'm pretty peachy. Thank you. I have some kids that are pissed off in the other room. So if anybody barges in, just fair warning.

It'll be just another day. It's fine.

yeah, exactly. I know. Actually, it's kind of funny because I'm always worried it's gonna happen and it never does. So I'm wondering if the listeners think I'm full of crap, but...

But anyway, so I don't know where you want to start because you kind of have several things going on. One of which is that you have ADHD and another is that your daughter has ADHD.

Yes.

if there's anything else layered in there as far as, you know, anxiety or whatever. So tell me where you want to start.

What do you like? Tell me a little bit about your family and what you're

Yeah, sure. So I remember you telling me about the podcast and it really resonating in terms of the tricky kid moniker. And so we have had an adventure as a family with one of our Children. We have four being really tricky and getting you know, dive into this realm of not always knowing what to do and very frequently not knowing what to do.

And so this particular child, um, is a female. And she, um, exhibited characteristics really early on that told my husband and I that she was, you know, just not developing like our older child, um, who is a male. And we just started taking in all of these observations of these things. And so early, very early on, we started doing therapies.

We, there was, um, you know, some. Developmental delays. And so we immediately started getting into therapies. But as a parent, you know, you just know sometimes that that kid has some different developmental things going on. And I had no idea at that time what it was. So

sorry to interrupt, did you know at that time that you had ADHD yet?

Um, at that time I suspected that I did, but at that time I actively did not want to get an assessment because I didn't want to actually have that professional opinion, uh, to

It doesn't have, it's not real if no one has told me and well and as a female I mean this whole episode today is going to be kind of talking about the female perspective girls having ADHD, adult women having ADHD because it's not talked about enough and you're very successful in spite of the fact that you had untreated ADHD all the way through Receiving your doctorate, right?

Yes. Yes. So at the time, yeah, when, when this child was, was an infant and then growing up, like I had completed my PhD. So in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, you know, I might have ADHD, but look what I've already done. So what does an assessment really tell me? Why would it be even beneficial for me to have?

Plus there's a job that I've always wanted to have that You really can't have ADHD and have, you would not be selected for this job. So I was like, no way, I'm not going to get an assessment done. I don't want to have that, uh, as part of my, you know, repertoire of who I am. So, and really at that time, um, I was working on a postdoc, you know, we just, we had two children, like there was just a lot going on.

So I wasn't going to focus on myself when I knew that my child really needed to have a lot of these therapies and assessments and kind of things done. And, um, kind of flash forward a little bit, um, we have now twins and so when the twins were born, um, this child, I mean, poor dear, she just, her whole world was changed, right?

You know, she was two and a half. And so. you know, having these new little brothers that just really took all of mommy's time and daddy's time really changed her world. And so we noticed a huge uptick in some of the behavioral concerns that we had. Uh, and really that kind of knocked us into the realm of, okay, we need to get even more assessments done on her because up to that point, we had just been doing some therapies that was really helpful and wonderful, but we really hadn't had her be assessed for some of these other things that we were a little bit more concerned about, such as autism spectrum disorder.

Um, ADHD wasn't discussed at the time, but I was a little more concerned that she needed some more detailed therapies. So it was when she was about two and a half, almost three, that we did some more assessments. And, um, thankfully we found this amazing psychiatrist, and as soon as we come into the office and she spends about 30 minutes with us and hears our story, and, you know, we tell her some of the things that have gone on and gone on in the past, she immediately says to me, This is anxiety.

This is severe, generalized anxiety disorder. And so for someone to tell me that they could diagnose that in a child that's, you know, almost three, I thought that that was impossible, but no, it surely is. And, um, she.

my tricky kid, he started presenting his anxiety disorder between the age of two and three. It was like the more he became of the world, like aware of the world and like things catch on fire and there's car accidents and like there's a, the world is dangerous. Uh, the anxiety was just like blowing out of control.

Now it took us a couple of years to realize that it was anxiety. So good for you that you found somebody that helped you recognize that so early.

Yes. And you know, it's so funny that that you mentioned some of the things that like your son would deal with versus some of the things that we were seeing at that same age with a female. It does make me wonder if some of those presentations could be different because of what we kind of saw her doing and sort of like retreating into herself and staying pretty internalized about it.

Um, until there was a breaking point. Yes. And then it got very external. Um, so it does make me give pause and wonder about, you know, what scholarship is saying at that age, even about some of the presentation of anxiety.

girls and boys complete, I think one of the reasons that ADHD and girls gets Um, missed is because the typical ADHD kid, which I have two and they're very different, um, is really disrupting the classroom. So there's a lot of like, Hey, what's going on here? What's going on here? Whereas a girl and probably you were the same way.

Like you knew what the social norms were. You're trying really hard to not be disruptive in maybe you're forgetful, disorganized, anxious, inattentive, but that stuff isn't like. disruptive. It kind of goes under the surface. My oldest, with his ADHD, his is the Disorganized, like wandering through the world, like following a butterfly.

And then it's like, Oh, where am I? And we were very lucky that he had a second grade teacher that noticed the lack of attention. Because I mean, we weren't, I was, he was squirrely. That was kind of the most I would have said is like that one's squirrely. So I think kids that are able to hold it together, and I'm sure that also would explode even more.

after school. Was she in daycare or anything at the time?

she was. Yes.

Yeah. So did she have emotional collapse when you would pick her up each day or did that wait till she was older?

Well, at that age, not quite as much. I think it would have been kind of attributed to just normal behavior for like a two to three year old. But now that we look back on some of those things, I mean, when we would, um, just for example, like we would go to a church service or anywhere basically where you could drop your kid off somewhere and have, you know, childcare for them, it was just never happening.

we would immediately get that little buzzer, you know, that said like you need to come back to the nursery and come get your kid or come figure something out. And honestly, we never ever were able to quote unquote drop her off somewhere like that. She had to know the person really well. So at that age, all we could really do was this home daycare that she did where she got very individualized attention, um, versus a larger.

Child care setting that just never worked for her. And again, looking back, I can see some of those anxiety symptoms that were coming up in her, but as a, you know, for the most part, a new parent, I mean, our oldest child at that time was only five. So I didn't know a lot of these things. I thought maybe she was just wanting to be with me and she didn't want to be dropped off, you know?

like, there's all these phases where they're, you know, they're like, Oh, this is the, you know, regression and the attachment and you kind of have to keep pushing through and reassuring and you're going, this is lasting a very long time and it's so hard as a parent because, Oh my God, first of all, you need a break.

Yes.

second of all, the stress, I just remember situations where. Casey and I would want to go do something and the whole time it was like at any second We're gonna get a text or a phone call and we're gonna need to go back and unless it was like grandma babysitting

Yep.

Which I think he felt so safe He was like probably Somewhere between six and eight before she saw any of his volatility.

I mean, I don't, I wouldn't say that she didn't believe me necessarily, but maybe, you know, mom, mommy, maybe this is so stressful for mom. And they had some issue over an art project one time when she was here and, When he wasn't in the room, she was like, yeah, I saw today what you have been talking about.

Uh, cause he saves it mostly for me and Casey. I

Yes.

for the most part, which is so hard. And sometimes it makes me feel, you know, you're supposed to feel special, like you're her safe place. So she feels comfortable flipping out with you, but it doesn't make it. Any easier at all.

Most certainly doesn't. And the word exhausting is so true because you're like, I would really just like to go for a couple of hours anywhere, honestly, and not be so concerned about who is going to be the person in charge, how is that reaction going to be? And then. you start to develop these concerns of, okay, my child's getting older.

Some of these things are not getting any better. Are they ever going to be able to turn, you know, 18, 19, 20 and become a functioning member of society without mom, you know, like what is that going to look like? And even we've even discussed this with the pediatrician of like, well, we're kind of thinking now.

About the different places in the world that she would be able to function really, really well. And so, thankfully, now that she's older, um, she's 11 now, we do see those things. And I'm not trying to pigeonhole my child, you know, at the age of 11 for what they're going to do for the rest of their life. But, as parents, you always want to set them up for success.

And so, you see some of these places that might be really, uh, beneficial, uh, in terms of workplace environments, where, where that could... Potentially work out pretty well and so we kind of foster some of those activities so that in the next seven, eight, nine years, you know, she'll feel really confident to move out into the world without mom, which would be fantastic.

Yes, I need you to need me less, please. So... She goes this, your family is at the same school that we are at. So, you know, I've talked a lot about how unconventional it is and things. And one of the things that just in my research and learning more about ADHD and anxiety and things is that if a kid can make it to graduation.

Without self destructing, most people, it is their superpower that their brain works so differently. If they can just not get a job in a cubicle, if they can get a job where they're creative and using their talents and able to move and probably have a lot of flexibility in their career and be self driven, I think they're world changers.

It's just the school environment is not designed for them, even as. Um, unconventional is the school where our kids go to. I mean, there's still, there's still like, you have to be there at this time. You have to stay until this time. Like you have work you have to get done. And I think as innovators, you know, I just know people that once they got out, it was like their life coaches, their therapists, their recruiters, um, software designers.

Like they're just in a different category of kid that. Uh, really probably struggles to just get through school.

Yes.

on to that. That's what I tell myself is,

Yes.

yeah, we just don't want to break them in the meantime,

Right. Absolutely. And I. I think the, there's so many wonderful, wonderful pieces to how this school functions, you know, for our children and for our daughter, what I've really noticed is she has the flexibility of thought there, you know, she might have a completely different way of viewing something or seeing something and that's always been fine.

You know, I'll sometimes go to our parent days, you know, where we go to the expo and we get to see all the work that they've done and and I don't compare herself, her work to the other students. But I do make the observations of how it's different or similar. And sometimes she does take something on a completely different track than, you know, five other kids work that I've looked at, but they don't ever try to change her to make her sort of pigeonhole into that way of thinking.

They just let her ride with that. And she's done the same work. She's done the same project, but she's just taking it from a different standpoint. And I think that's really beautiful because that's how work functions. You know, like some, some jobs, yes, are very pigeonholed and are very narrow, but there are plenty of things to do in this great big world where you can take that creative side and you can do things a little bit differently.

So I love that they sort of, um, celebrate that in the children.

yeah, it's so important if we want innovation, if we want to, I mean, and every business is changing. I mean, every company in the world changed due to COVID and how their business has changed and how people's behaviors changed. And like, if a company can't start innovating and thinking how we're going to handle this, they're not going to be here in a year to.

Yep.

And it's important to have the person that doesn't think like everybody else, or even a few of those people, because that's where you get the cutting edge thing of, instead of going, gosh, we're using a lot of paper and pencils, is there a way to use technology to like make this better? And, you know, speaking of the school, it's so funny because we went to a visiting day one day and my son had made a rocket and we were kind of struggling on this particular day because all three.

kids activities and like them showing off their work was happening kind of simultaneously. Get to all of the things they have since staggered it. Thank you school for doing that. But I went to his teacher and just said, Hey, I need to go over to this other building and I'm just trying to figure out like what time the like rocket launches.

And she's like, well, I mean, what works for you? And I said, well, well, where are all the other kids shooting off their rockets? And she's like, Oh no, he's the only one that made a rocket. I was like, okay.

That is his presentation, by the way.

yeah, I mean, he had worked with the media people to 3D print this thing and they had researched the different ways you could launch it.

And they had gotten with the facilities people to get a compressor out into the parking lot. Like all of this. stuff for one child. And I was just like, I, and I also felt kind of stupid because I had no idea he was the only person that made a rocket, but they took, they just kind of let him keep going.

And you can do that in an environment where the class size is a lot smaller. And you can do that in an environment, honestly, where. It's okay to do that. I mean, I tell this story all the time about when my kids were at a public school and there was like, you know, like a big cherry picker, boom, lift, like outside their windows painting and doing maintenance.

And I had asked. My oldest, how's that going? Like, that's so cool that that's out your window. And he said, Oh no, they papered over the windows so that we're not distracted. So we can't see it. And I

what a bummer.

what a missed opportunity to be like, Hey guys, let's go out here and let's see what they're doing and how this thing works.

And just like, instead it was, don't look at that because we have. Set curriculum that we have to do, which is like a whole nother thing. That's frustrating about education today. But I was

Well, and that's. That is so sad and that is sending the unstated message that. That cherry picker was a distraction like that. If you were looking at that, if you were wondering about it and how it works and what the dirt is like that it's moving, that that was a quote unquote distraction when really that is a part of life.

And that is a wonderful opportunity to wonder and ask questions and to make observations. I mean, what better way to be a little scientist right then would be to do that. So that is very disappointing to hear that, you know, and sort of that sort of public school mentality. That you had to just stay in this very narrow field and teach to the, whatever it was they had to do for that day and not have more flexibility, uh, particularly in your, you know, line of thought and like those poor children, like that might set the stage too, to say, Oh, me wondering about that is a distraction and I shouldn't be wondering about that when that's really the opposite of what we're trying to teach them.

I want my kids to look outside and wonder. So

It's like the movie Dead Poets Society where like Robin Williams character gets in trouble for letting the kids think. And I know that the majority of teachers that I know that teach in a public school setting are just as frustrated as everybody else. So

yes.

I have to say that I don't, I don't even think it's the principal in that school that is driving this bus.

Like there is a cultural issue that is driving this situation and everybody's kind of having to fall in line and it's incredibly frustrating. But, you know, I'm just like, Oh, captain, my captain, like, what are we doing and how can we change the world? If We're all,

Yeah.

none of us are allowed to think differently.

So, I mean, do you, how do you feel like school's going for her?

You know, I feel like it's now going really well. Um, I think now that she's figured out some of those ways in which she can modify what she's doing and use her creative brain. She's incredibly artsy. So the way she can kind of take that creative and artsy bend with her work, I think it is going really well.

And when I meet with her teachers, they say Oh, yeah, she's doing fantastic. You know, so there's not that concern coming from the teachers. And as a parent, there's not that concern coming from us any longer. And so that's really very freeing to feel. I, I do believe that if we were still in a public school setting, I would not feel this relaxed about it in terms of her learning.

I think we would probably be getting, um, some more phone calls and some more concerned, you know, teachers and that kind of thing.

This is what happened today. This, you know, she wouldn't stay in her seat or

Yes,

is what we were working on. And she's over here doing this other thing and the stress of that. I mean, even at this current school, um, I just, my son, my trickiest son had issues usually the last 20 minutes of the school day when if everything was done for the day, he, they all had freedom to kind of go play, go play soccer.

You can go do art or whatever. And I think he'd run out of self control steam. I mean, really, and just was done. And. And he wasn't the instigator in any of these situations, but somebody would maybe be pushing his buttons and arguing about the fairness of the soccer game on the playground or whatever.

And, um, it was frowned upon that he was shoved and then he like threw the other kid to the ground. So even there, um, I was like, we got to make it to the end of the year without you retaliating in this. Cause like, we cannot get kicked out of the school. Like we have to stay at this school. And I appreciated, uh, the head of the lower schools perspective because we kind of figured out that he just.

Needed to come, like, at that time, just come get in my car, like, just leave,

Just be done. You're done. You're all done.

wait for your brothers because this part of the day where it's just like free for all, everybody have free time, it was like, I can't, my self control is all gone, um, but it was stressful, the stress involved of having a kid that, you know, my React with outside the norms like I just every day and you know, somebody from the school would call and I'd be like, Oh no, the caller ID and they're like, everything's okay.

We just have a question about whatever, like, okay, good. But raising a tricky kid, it's like always an option that there's something coming up and a repercussion for their different mess.

Yes.

a really special, magical place.

Yes. And I think there too, this sort of compare contrast thing is coming up for me because I also feel that my daughter feels the same way at the end of the day. Like, I, I am certain that she is done because honestly, usually when, if I'm doing the pickup and, or even, even when Justin is, you know, she'll get in the car and it's like, I need to either, she hates wearing headphones, but sometimes she will put them on so that she's just not hearing the sounds of her brothers, you know, it is like this child clearly needs to just be by herself somewhere.

And so it's very internalized for her. Until it probably will blow up in the car at some point, so she's probably not like your son going to do something at the end of the day that's going to cause any problem whatsoever. You know, she's not going to be in trouble. She's going to be there, but she is going to be almost boiling over and we can see it.

I can even see it. You know how the school has their kind of outside and they're waiting and I can pick, you know, I can pull her out of the crowd because I as her mom can see that she is nearly boiling over at that point.

It's amazing how good you get at that. You know, there was a period of time, uh, where my son was taking a, a midday dose of his anxiety medication and it camp just because every week different. People were in charge of them depending on what activity they were doing. That was, they were struggling to make sure that he got it, frankly.

And I could pull into the parking lot and see him and go, Oh, they didn't. give it to him. Like I could, I don't know why it didn't occur to me to start just carrying it in my purse, but I could just tell that he was a mess and he was just standing there holding his backpack. I don't think anyone else would have seen it, but I was like, oh, and I, you know, kind of would wave him over to the car and I've already got the music going and I've already like handing him a snack, trying to stay ahead of it because. Everyone has a breaking point, right? It's just, some people first of all Can she notice when she's about to bubble over? Or does she not have that ability yet?

So that sort of self reflective ability we've been working on for, oh gosh, probably six years now. Um, and I would say that it's only been within the last year. That we're even like inching toward making progress there. So it's only been within the last year where we can have some sort of blow up and then let things settle and then we Have like sort of our heart to heart talk and sit down and that she will actually be able to articulate things.

So it's it's maybe we're maybe inching toward a place where even now she can say You know, this is not, this is not good, you know, something, something doesn't feel right. I need this. I need this. Um, but that is still pretty infrequent. So we are actively working on that.

yeah, we do a lot of like, uh, post game huddles, like a lot of like after this is all gone on and everyone's calm. So we're going to have a conversation about how that went. And I think it is very new in our house for my son to say, I am feeling anxious. I mean, that's like new vocabulary for him to

Yes.

but one thing he doesn't notice is when he is hungry, and he is like a toddler that has not been fed, and I mean, yesterday, I just was like, did you eat lunch?

And he's like, well, you know, I had a couple of chicken nuggets. He was, you know, not at home and then dinner isn't ready yet. And I literally am like, what do you want to eat? I'm going to, you need to eat. And he's like, I'm not hungry. And I'm like, peanut butter crackers, like Ritz Cheerios. I was like, Hey, we have leftover pizza from last night.

Do you want me to heat it up? He ate four slices of cheese pizza.

Yes.

he was just so unbearable, but didn't relate it to the fact that he was hungry or really even notice he was hungry. He was just intolerable to be around. And I'm just like, it's like the, um, what's the, the pyramid of needs? Like if the base needs for sleep and eating and safety aren't met, like you can't really,

You can't, you could never ascend the top. And I have this discussion with people so often and in our house, we're very much like, if you're hungry, you eat, you know, I, I don't care if we, if I don't care if dinner is on the table and you have that feeling that you need to go get something different, go get it.

That is not a hill I am dying on. And I've had this discussion with so many people of. Well, what about this and this and this? And I'm like, you cannot reason with anybody who is feeling like that inside unless they have those needs met. Are they thirsty, hungry? Like if, are those the things that are really bothering them?

You will never get that behavior you're wanting to see. And so that's what we decided so long ago that any sort of bodily function is not a hill I'm willing to die on. So like, this was the case with potty training in our house and the case with sleeping and all of this, like we do what we need to do as opposed to having like the authoritarian parent kind of thing because it's not worth it.

yeah, I mean, we gave up on the whole food thing a long time ago,

Yes.

for me, I just need you to eat something. And if you don't want to eat the chicken that I just made, that's fine. Now we do ask them most of the time, like, you need to go make your own meal. Um, I'm not going to make two meals, like, and you can make, you know, macaroni and cheese, grilled cheese, chicken nuggets in the toaster oven, whatever.

Um, but yesterday I was like, dude, I get you get food because he wouldn't make himself anything. He didn't know. There's this like sensory issue where he

the hunger cue. Yes. Well, and with, with us, with, with our daughter, I think the first thing that she, she does notice that she's hungry and she doesn't. Um, I think in my opinion, I'm not a nutritionist, but in my opinion, she's not getting enough protein. And so she will, you know, with some of her sensory things, she will flock back to her favorites, which is probably going to be fruit.

So she might just eat a handful of blueberries and then be like, okay, well I'm not hungry anymore, but I'm like, uh, uh. We really do have to get the protein in there, particularly to make you feel good. Like, it's not going to feel good if you spend your whole day eating fruit. Your stomach is probably going to hurt.

But when you have that protein that sustains you, yes, I know, like all this acid in your stomach, my goodness, that's not going to feel great and then you're going to think you want to eat some more, but then you're going to go to fruit again. So we struggle a lot with protein and getting more like sustained foods that will, you know, stick with her for a lot longer.

So that is an active issue that we are dealing with right now.

I know it's so hard, but I'd love to be the person that's like, this is what I made for dinner and this is what we're having, but that it's just not important to me if it's, you know, I was thinking the other day, like in the fifties and sixties where, or even hundreds of years before that, if somebody was in trouble and you were like, you're going to bed without dinner.

And I'm like, Oh my God, what was that like? for, for, for the entire household. If they had a kid that was dysregulated when they were hungry, like that's the last thing you need. It needs to be, you need to sleep, you need to eat, you need to rest, you need time by yourself. And we're going to give it to you any way we can, even if it's handing you an iPad and saying, here is some cheese sticks and your iPad, and I need

yes, eat them.

your room, please.

Recalibrate yourself and that's probably going to include a little bit of snack.

It does. And I'm the same way, man. I mean, I have always been the person that like at a wedding reception and the bride and groom aren't there yet. You better believe I am near the buffet, but just casually chatting. Not, I don't have a plate in my hand yet, but I am waiting for the all clear so that I can eat something.

And I'm like, Oh, we're going out to dinner tonight. I need to look and see, like, I need to know what I'm going to order.

Yes.

What am I going to eat next? And I think he's the same way. And, yeah. You know, maybe a lot of other people are, but I can't, I don't do well without, uh, eating, so

I think I mean, I conjecture that most people are this way, but I also think that there's this whole concept of like highly sensitive people and you know, the sensitivities and the sensory issues and all these other things that go into it as well are not helping. So it just make it just compounds the issue all that much.

So as far as diagnoses, and it's okay if you don't want to say a bunch of labels, but I was just curious, are, we're dealing with anxiety, but also

Yes. So yeah, we've had quite a journey with that. I mean, we were told, you know, really early on the, you know, some of the first visits that we had in doing assessments when she was quite young, um, generalized anxiety disorder and, and that it was pretty severe. So that's just sort of the, the label and the, the research that we were doing and the, the treatment like in terms of therapies that we were sitting with for a really long time.

Um, but for myself, I sort of had in the back of my mind and this knowledge, you know, that you're the expert on your own kid, you know, you have this data that you just acquire every single day. So you've got this backlog of data filed away. I just knew and, you know, and, and my husband just knew that there was something else that we were missing, you know, and what was this other thing that we were missing?

And, you know, everyone's, you know, everyone's aging and getting older. And so we would just keep acquiring all this new stuff and. Um, by this point, I had my diagnosis of ADHD, so I had kind of, you know, come to this realization and I can talk about this too, um, of the fact that I might have it, you know, kind of like in early in graduate school.

So, you know, I was probably in my sort of mid twenties when I started having this realization that I might actually have ADHD. But... What it seemed to me in comparing what I dealt with in terms of ADHD and what we were seeing in her Seemed completely different to me. So for the longest time it didn't even occur to me that she might also have ADHD But as I did more reading and more thinking and just kind of kept mulling this over, I thought maybe that's the missing piece because ADHD looks so different and so many different people, you know, there's all these different facets of executive functioning that can be different.

And it seemed like the things that I was dealing with, she didn't really seem to deal with. But that she had all this other, all these other symptoms. And so, we have a really great relationship with her psychiatrist. We've been seeing her now for, what is it like, you know, eight years. And so, when I mentioned to, to her that, well, you know, I have a diagnosis, so do we think it's wise to get her assessed?

And she was like, you know what, doesn't hurt. So,

and ADHD is genetic. I mean, it

It is. It is.

is anxiety. So, I don't have ADHD, but I have anxiety. So, sorry kids. That's what you got from me. But, I mean, it's like every other person on my side of the family tree has some kind of neurodivergence of some type. I mean, it's just kind of in our DNA.

So many parents, it's interesting that you figured out you had ADHD before her, because a lot of parents who have made it to adulthood get diagnosed at their kid's assessment. Cause the person's like, you know, you're listening to all of the questions and stuff and you're like, Oh, I do all of that. I do all of that.

Interesting. So it's, I mean, it's interesting because once you make it to adulthood, I was, I was doing some research. Of the adults that have a D H D, only 20% in adulthood are diagnosed. So the other 80% that have it but don't know it are just wandering around frustrated with themselves that they can't stay organized, that they're late for work, that

Yes.

for, they forget to do this or that, and they don't know what is different about them.

And I think sometimes, My point of view, especially in women, is it's so important to know what's going on, because especially in women, they start to, it affects your self esteem, your self worth, you can get depressed, because you don't know that your brain is operating differently than everybody else, and people with ADHD love to make mistakes either. They to get done and we're going to do all of this and no one can achieve it and they lose track and suddenly they're at the store, but they meant to organize the closet and, you know, so, so it's the diagnosis piece, I think is important, but I can understand also not wanting to have the information. I mean, it's kind of scary to look at it head on.

It is. It's kind of scary to look at it head on, but also I had in looking back at my life, I had recognized like. Look at all the coping mechanisms you've already done, like you're already a fully functioning adult, you know, who is married and like has a PhD now and like all these things. So like, why, why find out?

Um, I eventually kind of like made a little, not a bet with myself, but I had given myself like a little timeline to say, Oh, if I haven't been able to do this dream job of mine, um, You know, that would might prevent me from doing it. If I had this diagnosis, if I haven't had this by a certain time, then I'll, I'll go for an assessment.

And so this time rolls around and I'm like, okay, fine self, I will go get an assessment just to see. And around this time in my life too, I was starting to notice the difficulties that I was having. Um, so there's this, yeah. There's, you know, even in literature about women with ADHD or girls in ADHD, you know, you have all these women that generally do come up with these really successful coping mechanisms.

And so I was seeing all those different things that I was doing, but I was also seeing the degradation of some of them and realizing, Oh, I probably could benefit from having some help with this or having even the knowledge. of where my different issues are, like which pieces of ADHD I struggle with. And so that ultimately led me to like go ahead and find someone and get assessed.

And I will say the assessment was actually kind of fun because, um, I had told the gal what was going on. And she said, well, don't worry, you know, a real assessment looks at you today. And you a few years ago, but then also you like 20 years ago, you know, like, what were things like for you when you were growing up?

And what were things like for you in college? And, um, so we're going through all these assessments and she's asking me questions and we're just laughing with each other, honestly, because I was like, um, 11 like, that's how I've always been like, what are you talking about? So we get to the end and she's like, yeah.

Well, you definitely have ADHD and we just kind of laughed with each other. But, um, I do also recognize, and I try to tell people this when I'm talking about ADHD, that I recognize that mine is pretty moderate. So it's not mild like it's definitely there and I definitely deal with a lot of the different things on a day to day basis But I do not have severe ADHD.

And so that can be really crippling for some people. I mean that really can be Very crippling on a day to day basis. And so I do try to be mindful when I'm talking about ADHD to Recognize that because I you know, I was able for so long To have my own coping mechanisms and to realize what needed to be done in my life, but someone with severe ADHD probably could not.

So, I recognize the, almost the privilege, you know, in that.

Okay, so one of the things I was thinking about is reserve, and so for me and talking to my therapist about certain things. The more that's on your plate. So like it was real easy for me to manage my anxiety when I was only in charge of myself. I mean I didn't I didn't have a job.

I just had to get my homework turned in and I needed to study or whatever and the anxiety was there for sure. I mean when I was a little kid I I bawled my eyes out any time my parents left. I was just sure I'd never see them again. I saw the TV show Punky Brewster and was sure my mom was going to leave me at the grocery store if I took my eyes off of her.

Oh, bless.

I know, it's so sad. But it wasn't until I had this entire family that I had, and there's just, I don't have the reserve to pull from. It's just harder and harder. And I just wonder if that's the same thing with ADHD where, you know, you used to just have to get yourself to all these things and make sure you.

Picked up your groceries or whatever. And you know, you'd open your fridge and there wouldn't be anything and no big deal. You go buy groceries or whatever. But now you've got four children and a husband and a career that's not even in the same town as you because you're a professor and you

Yes. Yes.

you're managing a lot of things that it might have just maybe become untenable at that point.

Well, and it's so funny to hear you talk about it because in my brain, I wouldn't register a lot of that. My brain would probably never tell me that I couldn't do all of those things. And so I have a particularly like, I don't know if it's unique, but like a very way of viewing time. And so I probably would never say to myself, Oh, that's too much.

Or, um, maybe I'm putting too much on my plate or maybe I should say no to that thing because my brain will not process that that isn't going to happen. Like in my mind, absolutely. These things will happen in my mind. I could write down, you know, that I'm going to grade all of my students papers and. My brain will legitimately think that I could probably do that in about 45 minutes when, I mean, let's be honest, that's probably going to take about three hours, you know, but my brain won't even let me process that.

So, um, it's interesting because people will say to me all the time, you know, Oh, well, that's a lot on your plate. And I'm like, really? Is it? Oh, I guess it is. Maybe. I don't know. And then I just move on. Um, but that's how that's sort of how, um, what would the right word be? I guess active or like overactive, hyperactive, probably my brain functions at any given moment.

So

And you're

it's almost a blissful ignorance. Yeah. Yes.

Well, and if it doesn't bother you, I mean, one of the things for me with my anxiety and I was. It's basically just this codependent person walking around. I hated saying no to anyone about anything. And I still hate saying no, but I will say no. So for a while, I kind of overcorrected once I realized that what a bad habit I was in.

And I just said no, like the second anyone asked me to do anything, I was like, no, no, no, no. And then eventually I had to kind of start going, what do I want? Like, what do I want in this situation? Cause it, I'd never. It had never occurred to me to think about my preferences, like how I felt about this. Do I even want to come up to church every Sunday afternoon and practice for the skit team or whatever?

Um, I just, you asked me, I feel like I could do a good job at that. I feel obligated to be there. And I also think that I'm kind of superhuman, and I think I can do more than anybody else, and I, you know, and I think through therapy I've realized that it's, it's okay to, to say I don't want to do that, or that's too much, or I, I work hard at like reading a book on a Saturday.

Yes.

feeling guilty, like this is doing something I am reading a book and I am enjoying the sunshine that's doing something

That is

need to

Yes.

you know, and I'll have friends go, Oh, I just had the lazy. I just didn't get anything done this weekend. I'm like, great. Did you enjoy your, like, did you rest and rest is hard.

And that's an American mentality too. So that's pushing you even further into that.

Yes, it is. And I think too, because I've had some people and this definitely is not coming from you. So I don't want, I want to make sure that that's not the case. Um, but I have had people say to me, you know, well, you just don't know how to relax. You know, you don't know how to rest. You don't know how to do this.

And I'm like, I, my brain just doesn't do that. You know, like I can't, I can't understand what you're talking about when you say that you want to, you know, You know, go sit in the pool for a couple of hours and not really do anything, quote unquote, anything. I'm like, my brain can't even process doing that.

Like I have to be doing a couple of things at one time. Like for me, it is truly fun to. You know, be doing all of like, I will be listening to an audio book and organizing my sock drawer and, you know, whatever, all at the same time. And it's fun to, like, I really enjoy that. So my brain cannot process some of these things that some people are talking about, uh, in terms of resting and relaxing.

But then I don't realize that I need to do that. You know, like my brain won't even let me figure out that I do need to rest and relax. And so my husband laughs that like my two speeds are 75 miles an hour or zero. So like if I go and sit somewhere, I'm, if I, if I'm not like, if my brain is not being overly stimulated, I'm probably going to fall asleep.

So that is sort of like the, the two, you know, switches that I would have. Um, so that makes rest really hard.

Coping mechanism, like a, the, uh, a brain's basic coping mechanism is knocking you out like, like, because, you know, it's just, I mean, I remember when I did EMDR and by the end of the session, my therapist was asking me how I was feeling and I was like, I just Feel like going to sleep. And she's like, well, but that is you escaping

Like you're not. Cuz I was like, oh, I feel so relaxed, I wanna fall asleep. And she said, no, no, no, no. Your brain is trying to avoid what we're doing. So your body is like, go to sleep. Just go to sleep.

Yes. Yes.

and so, Um, I am intentional about relaxing and showing my kids relaxation, maybe there's activities that are more active than like, I sat in the pool this weekend and I read an entire book and the kids came and went and we played and then they would disappear and I was like, yeah, I'm by

Yes. Absolutely.

and I had a great time.

But maybe for you it would be something like a little more active. Like, you know, there's a mom at school that, she is at everything crocheting. She is crocheting her life everywhere she goes. And I, I know she loves it and I also wonder if that, she just got, she needs to have busy hands.

Yes. And I think that is, that's something actually that we are really encouraging of our daughter because she's kind of taught herself through YouTube videos like knitting and crocheting and things because in terms of, and it goes back again to, I think maybe the girl boy kind of, uh, differences with ADHD, ADHD.

I think that the hyperactivity part not only can be internal, it can be more brain hyperactivity, but it can also be more fine motor than gross motor. So I do wonder sometimes like if that just moving your hands by knitting or whatever can replicate. The movement that you need to do so that you're not, you know, tapping your leg or twirling your pencil or doing something that could potentially be disruptive in a classroom.

Um, I've recognized that I pop my fingers a lot. I'll just be sitting in a meeting and like twirling my fingers. Um, and so I think that is still movement. Like that's still that hyperactive kind of movement. Um,

my

yeah, and I.

he listens better when he's moving. I mean, he'll watch TV swinging on the monkey bars in our game room. And I would not be able to follow the plot if I were upside down, like. It's like swinging on something, but moving helps him focus.

Yes. Yes.

you know, even if it's just doodling, like doodling isn't bad guys.

Stop like, stop insulting doodling. Doodling is an important thing and it's helping somebody focus on what you're saying.

Yes.

honestly, the average adult attention span is 10 minutes. And the whole world is constantly asking for us to pay attention for a very long time, like a very, very long time.

Even if it's just, you know, you're at a seminar or you're in a work meeting and the work meetings an hour and a half long, and it's like, how much more productive would we all be? ADHD or not, if we broke this up into sections, because minute by minute, there's less reserved for all of us. Like we all need to get up and walk around or eat something or go to the bathroom or whatever.

Um, so it's kind of a continuum for sure. Cause I can't. because of my job, I drive around and interact with people. So I have an interesting way of like, I'm being social for a little bit and then I get in my car and I'm alone for a little bit

Yes.

I'm social for a little bit and then I hide in my car for a little bit.

So I'm not having to interact with people all day.

Yes.

And when I do, like if I have to go to a weekend meeting, I'm exhausted

Yes.

the day, and really out of the habit from COVID. Like I used to be like this big extrovert and I still am, but I also really love to be alone, like

Uh huh.

it.

Well, and I think too, with that. involves some of the coping mechanisms that I think that I and many others have developed over time. Like I always, and the problem is you get, um, for some of those coping mechanisms, you get praised for a lot of them. And I think girls tend to get praised for a lot of those things because, um, I am an insanely good note taker.

Like if I'm in a meeting, I cannot just listen to the meeting. Like that is not going to happen. But if I am there either on my computer or by hand is actually my preferred method. I take copious notes. They are incredibly well organized or color coded all of this because that keeps me not only awake so that I don't fall asleep.

Um, it keeps me engaged in what they're saying and it helps me to learn. Immediately, what's been said, I don't have to ever look at my notes again, because I can see them in my brain and I have them right there. So I think some of those attention, uh, issues that have led to those coping mechanisms gets people praised sometimes because I was always known as the best note taker.

Exactly. Look at, look at how well she's paying attention and she, and she cares about every single thing. She is writing it all down

yes. She remembers. Yeah.

yeah, I do worry a little bit. It'll be interesting to see. Time will tell is so many, you know, the younger generation or whatever. They take notes on their laptops instead of by hand and I, it's, it is, it is interacting with their brain in a completely different way than writing is.

Yes.

it's actually really important to take notes by hand, um, rather than be typing. But, you know, I mean, my husband, my husband and I, we get made fun of by people who are even just a little bit younger than us because I have a steno pad. I just, and I have a digital calendar too, but I really like to hold it in my hands and be able to see like the whole

Yes.

everything that is on it. And the more digital things get, I think in some ways, I guess setting up calendar reminders and timers and things like that, that's helpful.

Yes.

But I think for people whose brains work a little bit differently, writing it down, and you have this tangible list that you're crossing things off, or you're doing stuff in an order, I hope that doesn't go away too far.

I try so hard with my kids to have them write. Get a pencil and write something.

Well, and it's funny, like I didn't recognize how important that was. I think for all kids, I think we would both make the argument that it's important for all kids, but for some of these tricky kids too, to have like, not only the visual, to have a picture, to have that thing that they wrote with their hands.

And, um, you know, in our house we do, everyone really just enjoys doing like, Lots of artsy, craftsy kind of things. So if you can put color to it or something exciting with it, it changes everything. I mean, sometimes our daughter will say like, can you just write me a list? You know, can you make me that list?

And I'll say, well, why don't we write it together? So that she's getting that tactile component. But absolutely. I mean, I still, and I get made fun of sometimes, but I take it and, you know, light, um, I still have like, I do my by hand. Calendar that's on top of my by hand finder. Yeah. And, and honestly, I only have to write it once because then it's in my brain and I can just close my eyes and see everything that's already there.

So it's sort of my, I guess, low tech, but still techie because I would consider that like saved in my brain, um, way of doing it, but it's very tactile. So,

Well, and it helps, you know, the more that you can use a tool to support your working memory, because that's what that is. You've put your working memory on a calendar. Now, the key, my, I have a, relative who has ADHD and she's like, I put it all down and then I don't remember to look at my calendar. So step one, you have to remember to look at your calendar, but you found a coping mechanism for your working memory.

For me with anxiety, writing things down is helpful because I can stop thinking about them. I, you know, if I can't sleep at night because I'm thinking about all the things I need to do the next day, if I roll over and either in my phone or on a piece of paper, I just list the stuff. And it's even just like, Take so and so to tennis, pick up the cupcakes, go buy this person, and Then my brain's like, okay, I don't have to think about it anymore.

She wrote it down. She's got a list. She can go to sleep

yes,

Like, and it's so funny because my oldest, I'm like, write this stuff down! Because he, you know, forgets to I don't know. He's done so much better now. He actually is getting his assignments turned in and stuff before it was just, he was just like, I will just remember.

And I'm like, but why add that to your brain, your poor brains plate of just carrying the dates and times in your head when you can just write it down and everybody's tools are different. For me, I didn't realize until I was older that I must be a visual learner because like. I can play Trivial Pursuit and beat your butt, but every question you need to hand the card to me and I have to read it myself.

If you read it to me, I struggle to process the question and then be able to get the answer. And the second I, and you know, my husband will be like, let me read you this email. I'm like, put it in my hand. I have to read it. That's also a control issue.

So I also feel like Justin does that to me, I'll want to like read him something or a passage of something and he's like, I just, can you, can you just let me read it myself? But I have this like unfulfilled dream of doing, um, of like doing audio recordings. Like I want to do voice acting. Um, and so I am like, no, but I want to add my inflection to like, I want to show you my emphasis, honey,

tone of

if he wants to read it.

is very important in the whole translation of the whole thing. So let me ask you this. So how, what's it just, it's just in neurotypical. I hate that term, but like,

Um, I, I would say so.  He, um, definitely like he has anxiety hardcore, so we kind of feel like his super duper uber uber anxious side  got.

And then the ADHD side for me, she got,

Oh, congratulations, double

for that genetic makeup. Awesome.

I was wondering is just like the movement and structure of your household and the functioning of things. Is he kind of the safety net of making sure things get done? Or do you feel like you've developed enough coping mechanisms at this point that, you know, you're not having stuff fall through the cracks?

Does that question make sense?

no, that question does make sense. I think in our house, um, I still am very hyper aware of everything that does need to get done. So I think In my sort of hyperactive brain, I am constantly acquiring those lists of things. So I've got, like, I'm the one that has written down everywhere all the different things that need to be done and I'll make lists.

I think, honestly, that lists kind of stress him out. So that was something that we didn't realize until... Not all that long ago. So we've been married like 16 years. So that was a pretty big realization to have, um, that for me, And, and brainstorming and action plans and all this stuff feels really good because to me that feels like forward movement and I'm always, I don't know, my brain is just so active that I'm constantly in fifth gear and doing those action plans feel really good to me, but I think in his brain, which operates slower than mine, which is not a bad thing, It just does, um, he feels kind of stressed by that sometimes.

So I've recognized that I need to keep my list and my action plans and all those things a little bit separate. And then go to him when I see the thing or the things that we need to talk about and devise together. But I try to rein it in a little bit because I don't want to stress him out too much. And I think that could.

Well, and it can be... Overwhelming, like I don't know how many action plans you have going at a time,

Lots.

some, yeah, so maybe too many action plans, but I Uh, anxiety, I'm constantly, uh, trying to solve stuff like I'm like, there's gotta be a better way to do this. We can communicate better, or we can be more organized better, or, you know, if I buy just enough tubs, this house will be organized.

Or if we, you know, if I read this book or that book, so I'm kind of constantly pushing and Casey gets irritated with me because. And, and this is frustrating, like, I'm the researcher, right? So I don't know where we would be if Casey was driving the bus on trying to figure out what's going on with our kids.

Same. Yeah.

like, it would be so dysfunctional. So, I mean, we're lucky I'm here, but at the same time, I get frustrated because I'm like, I sent you that article, or I'll buy a book, and I'm like, Let's both read it on our Kindles together and discuss. And I guess that isn't relaxing to him, so.

ha, ha.

And I'm not that I'm relaxed either, but my position, what I get frustrated with is like, I wish that I weren't like researching this and learning it.

And then there's potential for being lost in the translation of me explaining to you what the article said.

Yes.

he's gotten better about, you know, me, me saying, if I took the time to text you a link to an article on attitude magazines website, like. You need to read it. Like, it's rude that you didn't read it.

And that only happens like once a month, right? I mean, I'm not just like sending him articles. And he's like, it's overwhelming. And I'm like, just one of the times you're going to sit down to watch basketball replays. If you could just skim the article, please.

Yes.

be cool, but I am constantly trying to, you know, I, I probably will never stop trying to solve our family dynamic and make all this stuff better.

And he's able to, in probably a healthy way, put the stuff away for a minute and he can sit there and watch the TV show. And I am researching like. Resources.

Yes. Well, and it's so fun to hear that that dynamic for you all because I always thought in our house that dynamic was because I'm a scientist. I spend a lot of time looking in peer reviewed journal articles for things. So, of course, I'm going to look up stuff about our children in peer reviewed journals.

Um, I have access to that because of being a university professor. Um, I can quickly go into professor mode where I then recount

to that pretty fast because my brain is always in fifth gear. And then he, who operates slower. And can go into what we call a nothing box. Like sometimes he's like, I'm just in my nothing space. And I'm

I'm going to, I need to use that because I always tell Casey, he's a robot. I'm like, you're a robot.

right now,

like, there you went. Bye.

I

Okay. So Justin goes in a nothing box.

there is some comedian. I'll have to find it for you. There's some comedian that talks about this, like women, you know, where's spaghetti or something. And our brains are always doing this, whatever. And that men have boxes. And that he goes into his nothing box. So that's our big joke right now.

I'm like, are you in your nothing box? And he's like, Oh yeah. And like,

well,

have no clue what that feels like. No

I'm also just like, what are you thinking about right now? And he's like, nothing. And I'm like, I, I think he really is not thinking about anything. And I'm thinking about five things. I mean, I, cause you know, like, uh, there have been times where maybe like, we're just, um, laying out by the pool or whatever.

It's just the two of us and it's quiet. And I always feel awkward because I'm reading the whole time and he brings nothing outside with him. So I'm like, am I. Am I need, do I need to be entertaining

Am I supposed to talk to you?

Yeah. Like, cause I brought a book and you seem unprepared for sitting out here. And he's like, no, I'm just, I'm just sitting here.

I'm just enjoying, you know, being out here and sitting next to you. And I'm like, how?

That's so sweet though. You know, that's. It's a really beautiful thing. Soak in the, the environment and nature and the water and then your beautiful wife, but I'm like, I'm over here. I just like wrote a dissertation in my head. Like, what are you doing?

exactly. I'm already reading this book and going, Oh my gosh, this kid in my house would love this book. I need to send it to him. And I need to remember how you can share books on a Kindle. Cause he has one too. Like it's, and I do try, I will say there are times when I, I hit a wall of sorts where. I can sit outside and set my book down because my brain can't do one more thing.

It doesn't last a terribly long time, but yeah, he's in his nothing box.

yes, he's in his nothing box. And this was something like we talked, you talked a little bit about shame, like this feeling of shame. And for a while I was, I remember thinking to myself. What's wrong with me? Like why can't I do that? And in fact, I signed up and did a Class when I was a graduate student It was a meditation class and it was something that at the university had offered and I had a great time going off You know to take this meditation class, but I realized really early on I was like I suck at this Like I am never gonna be able to meditate.

This is a lost cause but I kept going back and kept going back and And I ended up, and at the time I thought I was doing it wrong, um, but I ended up coming up with this very intricate scene in my brain that when she would say, okay, like, you know, we're going to close our eyes and everyone's going to, you know, whatever.

I would have this intricate scene and these intricate things that I would do within the scene in my brain while I was meditating. And this whole time, of course, in grad school, I'm thinking I'm doing this incorrectly, but this is the only way I can think of to manage. But now when I circle back to that, I'm like, that's just how my brain functions.

And that was actually a really nice little place in my head. You know, I have this wonderful little scene and I could detail it for you. Yeah. And it was great.

because you were imagining all of the details instead of everything else happening in your life.

yes. And I had,

meditation, really.

it really is. And probably someone who's a meditation expert might come on and be like, you're doing it right.

You nailed it. You

You did it

it.

Yay! But it's just so different, like I, I didn't recognize until I was more of an adult, how differently that did mean my brain was functioning. But I see it as kind of cool, you know, you mentioned that whole like superhero aspect of it. And I certainly think that there are superhero aspects to ADHD.

And I know, I listen to a lot of ADHD podcasts and there's... Some I've listened to that are like, yeah, ADHD is a superpower and it's wonderful. And then others that are like, oh, man, we got to be really careful about saying that. But what I've recognized is that superpowers can be really, really great. They can be very useful.

They can change the world, but superpowers can also be really dangerous. And so you have to really understand your own superpower and how that works. Um, and so that's kind of how I view ADHD is. You really have to be very self reflective and collect a lot of data on yourself to know how to do that.

Well, I mean, it's literally just like every Marvel movie. Are you going to take your genius and build an Iron Man suit? Or are you going to take your genius and build whatever the bad guy was in whatever the movies?

Yes.

I, my position that I just kind of keep coming back to is I just feel like there's probably a larger population and we already know we don't know like how many people actually have ADHD, right?

It goes so undiagnosed, um, it is improving for girls. I, I wrote this down in the 1990s. It was a nine boys to one girl diagnosis and now it's two and a half to one.

Mm. Yep.

it is improving. People are catching it. But I just, I just feel like there's more people that have neurodivergence of any type, like even my anxiety, right?

But we're, we have designed school for this one type of person. And I always bring it back to like your circadian clock. Like I am a night owl being. Pigeonholed into people who are early birds and it's more respected. You get respect if you like I get up every day at five and I work out and like stephanie sleeps until 10.

I mean Two of my children had slumber part like slept over at friends houses this weekend. I slept till 11 On sunday and I could have kept going but I was like i'm starting to feel like I probably should be doing something else I probably, like there's probably a lot of stuff I should be doing right now, so I finally eventually got up, but I'm not built, like the way I am built is not built for this eight to five thing.

And I think there's this, you know, this, I went on a whole rant about this on a different episode, but I think it's the same thing with people who are neurodivergent. I just think we're just. Um, we're just acknowledging now there's a different way of thinking and I think the world is not up, is not set up for that different way of thinking.

And it doesn't mean one is bad or the other, but you know, we're just running around like, you know, I have a friend whose son is dyslexic and you know, it's tearing her up. And I'm like. You don't understand, the human brain is not even meant to read,

Mm hmm.

human brain had to change how it functions in this part of your brain in order to be able to read.

 Like it's fairly new that people are even running around reading. And also it's made up, like it is just made up characters on a piece of paper that everyone has decided means something. And, yeah. Your son's brain honestly is like how everybody's brain was for millennia and he's struggling to adapt to this thing.

Yeah.

And his brain isn't moving in the same direction that there's, there's nothing wrong. It's not a reflection of his intelligence. And it wasn't that long ago. I mean, even a hundred years ago, like if you were of a certain economic, socioeconomic level, you didn't even need to know how to read. No one would ever have known.

And it wasn't a reflection of your intelligence. It was a reflect reflection of your place in society. So, um,

Yeah. And social norms. I mean, Who needs them? Right? Like they're really quite frustrating. And I think that that goes back to, you know, public education frequently and just the way that we are expected, quote unquote, in terms of that sort of Gaussian distribution of what is considered normal, you know, neurodiversity versus being neurotypical.

And it's like, yeah, spend five minutes in say, like, so I'm a scientist, spend five minutes within the scientific community. Yeah. There is no such thing as that, like neurotypical component. Everyone is going to be on this neurodiverse spectrum, but guess what? That's where stuff is getting done. You know, like that's where these big ideas are coming from.

And that's where we're moving forward with like sending, you know, spacecraft to Mars and all this kind of stuff. So it's really confusing to me. And I've always been confused by that of what social norms look like. And why it has to be a certain way. And it actually is troublesome for me because. I don't sleep a ton.

Like I don't need as much sleep as say the average adult. And so I sleep less.

need sleep. I need so much sleep.

See, and that was like, I've got some other people in my family who are more like you, like they legitimately need, you know, eight, 10 hours. And that's when they feel good. And I just, I feel great when I do six and a half, seven, like that is my bingo, perfect time, which means.

I actually have more working hours in my day, you know, so if you got your right amount of sleep and I got my right amount of sleep, I probably have two or three more hours to do stuff than you do. And that has nothing to do with us as you know, how we're functioning as humans. It's just how it is. But yet I get praised because, Oh my gosh, cat, you get so much done and how do you do it?

And Oh my goodness, you've got a PhD and you have kids and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But it's like, I'm just functioning within myself, you know, and what, what my body can do and what my brain can do, and that's fine. And someone else may not function that way, and that's also fine. Um, so it's really bothersome to me when we get into this sort of, you know, what, what should things look like, particularly when it comes to education?

I mean in a perfect world every child would be assessed in a healthy manner not like You know, whatever the state testing is, but assessed as like what type of learner they are We're sensory processing disorder is becoming more and more known. I don't think it's brand new I just think it's being recognized like there's all these things at play and I think there's this middle That, and it's hard because like, even if you are just advanced, like when my son was at public school and he was really understand, he just understands math.

I mean, he's like, will hunting running around.

Uh huh.

so he was suffering because the teachers couldn't keep up with him. So they're just handing him the next grades workbook and like, do this. And then the kids who struggle with math, they're way behind because the teacher's having to focus on like the Four kids that are on track and then out of 35, some are ahead and some are behind.

And the entire classroom is built around this rubric of this one thing. And I, that I find incredibly frustrating and it is understandable. The budget is not there to. tailor make education around each person. I guess my point would be, we just need to recognize that education is not one size fits all and that we're asking basically every child, except for the four in the middle that are right on the average train track, we're asking every kid, these kids have got to like, I feel stressed because they're being pulled along and these kids aren't getting served because they're advanced and it's a mess.

I mean, I just, I, I, it just bothers me that I think all of these kids are walking around thinking there's something wrong with them or they're not doing something right. And it's really just because there's millions of kids we got to put in school. So there has to be a plan.

Yep.

But there's nothing wrong with you if you know, I just like I'm always like my kids are gonna learn how to read I'm not gonna get stressed out about it It's all gonna come and one day it clicks and if I stress them out with flashcards I don't think that's gonna improve their reading

Right. Most certainly not. And I think, you know, heart hearkening back, I guess, to the school where we send our Children. It became very clear to me early on, and I guess I was concerned a little bit at first, but now I recognize what they're doing. Um, it wasn't until probably the end of the year at one point that one of our Children we learned was a little bit behind the curve in reading.

And my first inclination was, Oh, my gosh, you never told me that my kid

is this information been? Yeah

is this information coming from? And so my initial reaction was to freak out a little bit. But then that teacher just said to me, your child is progressing like your child is progressing in their reading. I am not concerned at all.

So they're going to enter in the next grade of school. And continue on with this great progression that they're doing. No concern. Genuinely no concern from the teacher. And I remember chatting about this kind of topic with a different parent. Um, and this parent was, I think, maybe more, a little more entrained to the way public school works.

And worrying a little bit because this parent only has one child at the school. Um, worried about what it might look like. You know, oh my goodness, we're, you know, we're signing up to have our child here through 12th grade. And... What does this even mean? Are they going to be behind when they graduate and, and all this?

And I said, you know what? If we look at the school as a whole, and then what happens in middle school, and what happens in the high school, and then where the graduates, what they are doing with their lives afterward, that speaks volumes to me. So you look at this more holistic picture of what they're learning, and how they're learning it, and the, the timeline doesn't matter.

Like, I don't care if you're on a fifth grade reading level. In sixth grade or in third grade, but by the time you are all said and done and you're graduating and becoming a, you know, useful member of society, you have accomplished this. greater picture of how to work as a team, how to process information that's not siloed in your brain.

We, I work within STEM, uh, you know, like this sort of like big blanketed STEM topic. And we talk a lot about children and their STEM identity. Like, do they see themselves as someone who can do math? Do they see themselves as someone who could do science or engineering? And it's really troubling to me the number of kids who already have narrowed their focus to say, Well, I don't like science because I don't see myself as a science person and I'm not, I don't like to do science.

And the same goes for math. I don't see myself as a math person. I'm not good with numbers. Therefore, I'm doomed to not ever be a math person. And I think this approach of siloing everything and pigeonholing children into doing certain things at certain times is so concerning for that sense of identity that they build.

Or don't build.

Well, it's funny because I think the siloing of each, you know, you have an English class, this is all we're going to do. We're going to write papers and we have a history class and we're going to learn about World War II and neither of those are going to overlap at all. And we're not going to do any math that integrates with that or science that integrates with that. Uh, you know, got a D in college algebra, so math's not my jam. But I also do math all the time, like when I have to do something, like if we're installing windows or we're getting new carpet or, you know, literally all day long, if I'm having to, you know, I have a customer, so funny, I was trying to convince my son that, uh, multiplication applies to real life in the office was like, we need 24 of this.

And I was like, Hmm, it comes in boxes of six. And they need 24. How many boxes should I order? But I can do math in the world all day long but if you put a worksheet in front of me my entire brain is going to lock up. And the But in order to be a successful adult, do I need to be able to complete a worksheet?

Nope, that isn't important. But you know, I got my customer the amount of bottles of the thing they needed because I can, you know, and I didn't have to get my calculator out, not that there's anything wrong with that, but I think The application when math is so siloed like if you can take it and you know last year at school they basically Read the book the Martian with Matt Damon is the actor in the movie, you know getting stuck on Mars and they

Oh yeah.

it in every class And it was kind of funny because my son by the end was like I'm so sick of the Martian like we have done a semester of the Martian.

And I was like, but this is so cool because they're doing, they're having to build a spacecraft or whatever to figure out how that you can survive there. And they're having to do the math for that. And then they're writing papers about it. And then they're studying the, um, the space race. And it was so integrated that I was just like, I'm so jealous because you're taking the math that you need to learn how to use.

And you're like, they're tricking you.

Yes. Well, they're tricking you. Look how fun math is. And that's honestly, I mean that's how the world works. You know, you're not going to go get a job and be 40. And your boss going to come in and hand you a couple of worksheets to do. You're going to have a very integrated, multidisciplinary problem that you're working on with other people.

Like, that's how the world works. And so, I would love for all education, public, private, everywhere, to have more of that model. Because, really, at the end of the day, what we want to do is help our kids become... People that can function well in society and that can make a big contribution in my big thing for my kids is always, you know, what's this big contribution you want to do in the world?

I think that to circle back to, to kiddos and even adults with ADHD, I'm, I'm such a huge believer in people working within their strengths. You know, like, I feel like that's what life is all about. Like, we figure out what we're passionate about. We figure out what our strengths are. And then we truly love what we're doing and we can operate within those things.

And so to sort of force some of our Children, particularly these ones that are neurodiverse into doing something different is just such a huge disservice. And so I feel very grateful that we can send our kids to a school that doesn't seem to do that. But I feel like we as parents and adults and maybe even people, you know, someone who has a podcast or someone who's outspoken in their world and in their, um, you know, in the, their piece, their field, their part of society, like, I think we really should keep talking about these things because that's really where change happens is to make sure that it's really pushed.

I mean, I am very vocal within my university setting, um, that I don't ever, ever, ever, ever look at an applicant. Standardized test scores. I don't care a teeny tiny bit. And I also tell my students to this one's kind of tricky, but I also tell my students to that. I don't generally look at your GPA either, so a lot.

I'll have students come up to me and say, Oh, well, I have a 4. 0, so I should get bloody blah, and I'll just flat out tell them I don't care. You know it. That shows me that you know how to do school and you know how to do your work. And so I appreciate that. And you probably worked really hard. But if I'm looking to hire You know, a graduate student for a certain project or someone within this team that I have.

I'm probably going to look at your experiences first. So if you have a 4. 0 and you've never had any other experiences, no work, no research, no volunteer activities, none of these other things that put you within the greater context of the world, I'm probably not going to hire you. And I certainly don't care about your standardized test scores.

well, they haven't shown a genuine interest in the thing if they haven't found a way to plug into it and be doing it.

Yes.

yeah, I think there's just been a big paradigm shift as far as like, opportunities. There's so many different types of careers. I think our generation, uh, is probably the first parenting generation where we're, we've let go of the idea that you need to go get a job and you're going to work there 50 years and then you're going to retire and you're going to, you know, I've changed careers multiple times.

A lot of, and, and I'm no less successful for it. I just kind of am like, I'm, oh, I, yeah, this, and it worked, whatever that career was, worked for a period of time. And then I wanted to do this other thing differently, and I drove my parents crazy to no end. A dad that was an attorney, and my mom was an AP English teacher, and I wanted to be an actor.

And I wanted to work in L. A. And I wanted to make movies. And even if I wasn't in front of the camera, I wanted to be behind. They didn't want me leaving the state, let alone going on this adventure. And I drove them crazy. And I tell Casey all the time, I say, I really hope that when our kids say they want to have an internship in Italy, that I don't sit here and go, No, no, no, no, You need to stay close to me.

Yeah.

Instead of going, wow, like what an opportunity can I please come visit you?

Yes.

I, I think it's, it's hard because we love our children and I want to have a relationship with my children as long as we all live. But at the same time, I just want them to do the thing that they love. And there's plenty of people walking around that are starving actors that love what they're doing and they wait tables on the side and have a great time that are happy.

And there's a generation of people and a type of person that that would drive crazy.

Yes.

there's this quote unquote lack of success.

Yes.

I just feel like if you're at peace. With how you spent your day and your place in the world and you can eat Then I don't know. I tell my kids all the time.

I'm like when I first moved to LA mommy didn't have a bed I took all of my clothes and I made a pallet on the floor and slept on them Until I could afford a bed and I was in heaven I mean, I had a much younger back at the time, but I didn't care. I was in LA. I'm in LA working for a

doing the thing.

I'm doing the thing. And my parents were like, you don't have a bed. I'm like, I'll get one. Eventually it does. It's not on the list. So I think having, having parents who are willing to look at their kids and. And go, the world, it, there's so much to the world. I mean, I tell, show my kids at the end of a movie, I want you to watch and see how many names go by.

Yeah.

there are people that did jobs you didn't even know existed. And it's that way for every product you hold in your hand.

Yeah. Mm hmm.

There's so much opportunity out there. And if we can just help our kids white knuckle it through school, if they can get out in the world and believe that they're capable of something, they're going to find their thing. So that's my soapbox.

Yes, I completely agree. I completely agree. And it's so funny to think about how different generations and how things are changing and morphing. Um, and to, to bring that back to ADHD, I think that, and I've listened to podcasts who have said this, or one of my favorite podcasters, she says this too. That.

She feels like it's more like an evolution of the mind, you know, our brains and evolution of the human brain than being a quote unquote disorder. You know, the D is disorder, but, um, that it's not a disordered thinking at all. It's just this evolution of our brains and how we work and how cool is it? That we have people on the planet that think in all these different ways, like, wow, that is really amazing.

We understand that about diversity, that we have to have all these different voices in terms of getting these creative solutions to problems that we have right now. So, I, I kind of think it's, you know. Dare I say, it's kind of a wonderful thing that we have all of this different neurodiversity and how we think, because, you know, bless, if I was around, I would just keep adding on more projects and things.

But if I had you around, you might be like, Hey, Hey, we need to stop.

partner together, let's pick one of these plans or the first couple steps on each action plan and let's roll it out. But you know, I, it's so funny because I sometimes will be talking to one of my brothers and he's so creative and his take on stuff, I'm like, whoa. I didn't, gosh, I wish my brain could work like that.

Like I never will be the person that thinks of the cool new product that's on the market that you're like, of course this thing needs to exist. But you know, like the person who invented the Swiffer, like the broom hadn't been improved upon in like centuries, guys. We were still using these crappy

needed the Swiffer.

And the Swiffer came out and now people are improving upon the Swiffer because it's not perfect. But I remember when it came out I was like, Interesting, because we just were sitting here like brushing dust across the floor like completely ineffectively and it was just fine for everybody because no one stopped to think, could we do this better?

So, you know, I hope people when they hear us talk about this, like I'm not here to say like, yay, you know, I don't, I wouldn't wish. Uh, a difficulty on somebody cause it is a difficulty, but I think it's just, and it's stressful raising these little people, but if we can just get through it, and I think a tricky thing for me is that I can see the end result.

It's the daily, it's life.

It is.

I know you guys have a lot of stress in your house as a result of your daughter's. Just when she bubbles over when she has that emotional collapse And I just wondered like how do you and Justin handle that? How do you talk to your kids about it? Because we proactively talk to the other kids about and we make plans for them to leave the house if we're having a particularly rough day or put on noise cancelling headphones

Yeah.

All of the things and I was just wondering what does that look like in your house?

Yeah, so we also talk about it. Um, and I try to be really open about those kind of things, especially with the, with the kids, because, you know, it is, it's hard and everyone recognizes that it's hard, but it's also, you know, it's something about her. Like this is, this is who we are and where we are right now.

So we're not gonna, you know, we don't need to pretend like it doesn't exist. We don't need to just like, you know, skirt it under the rug. Like It's a thing. And this is where we are. So we have, um, when things start to get kind of rough, sometimes I will very quickly go to the twins and say, um, can you go do such and such in your room for a little while?

And they know what that means. They know that that means we're gonna, and they have tons of things. They've got toys, they've got books, all of that. So they know that it means to just go find a quiet place. They can close their door, um, and to not interact. And usually that's our key phrases. And so. Let's don't interact right now.

Let's not interact right now. Um, our oldest is old enough that he's like, peace out. I'm, I'm going to go.

He's like what's happening? I'm in my room and never come out. What are you? What

I'm trying not to interact with you on the most part anyway. So, um, so it's mainly the little boys.

yeah, I uh, I hate how, depending on his vibe, it kind of determines how everybody else, like how the house is going. That, uh, is really frustrating to me. So Casey and I have had to talk a lot about, you know, like one of us needs to be point.

Person on this cranky person today who's having a really hard time and the other of us needs to like Have a life like we still need to have our Saturday and all that everybody else gets to go do something go pile in the car and go play golf or Go to the movies or something. And we struggled for a long time where Casey and I would get derailed.

And then like everybody just had a shit day. Nobody got to do anything fun. And it's hard because sometimes it requires both of us, but I also just don't want that to be the experience of my, my other kids. I will say none of it seems to bother them. Like. The other day when we tried a new medication that left my son in a complete chemical imbalance, a clinical reason that he was the Incredible Hulk,

Yes.

nothing wrong, like he wasn't making bad choices or anything.

My other two were sitting in the kitchen playing Monopoly completely unfazed. It's like it's, none of this is happening. And I'm worried. I'm like, you guys want to go, like you guys can go to the park or do you want to go across the street to your friend's house? And then I worked. What? We're just playing

We're cool.

Like, this, like, the Hulk is all around,

Yeah. Well, and.

keep playing Monopoly.

That to me almost says to like, that's honestly a real testament to them. Like, it makes you wonder, you know, one of them could be an ER doctor someday and be completely unfazed by any crazy, you know, all this craziness that's going around and they'll be like, yeah, it's cool.

We're good. I can continue on, you know, it's fine.

That's a good perspective. I just try to make sure that they understand that they have no responsibility in this situation.

Yes.

they can just... Keep doing whatever they want to right then, if that means going to listen to music or leaving the house or sitting in the middle of the chaos and play Monopoly.

It's really important to me that we try not to push ownership of anything. And so sometimes when we have a talk, we'll say things like, Hey, listen, his anxiety medication has clearly stopped working. We are experimenting for the next month on this. And if you start to see him turning green, I think you should just walk away.

Yeah. Just FYI.

Exactly. And it's hard because I don't want them to walk on eggshells when we're in those situations. But I also just want to be like, just, you don't have to invest in making any of this better. Just go do your

can go. Yeah. And we, we talk about that in terms of medication a lot too. And sometimes I will say the exact same thing, like, Hey, this thing is not working out right now. And we are already talking to her doctor about that. So I just want to let you know what's going on and same thing. Like it has nothing to do with you.

Just be aware. And, and honestly, even the, you know, the little boys who were eight, even last year when they were seven, they could be like, Oh, okay. You know, they, they knew and they knew what that looked like. And for a while there, I was really disappointed that that's where our family was, you know, like, wow, this is our life.

This is where we are. But. I did also come to terms with the fact that, like, that's not going to change anytime soon. So, I can either settle into this sort of despair about it, or, you know, just talk with them and know that it, it does. However, in our house, it's such slow progress. And for somebody who is constantly in fifth gear, I see progress a little bit differently, but knowing that not everyone in my household is in fifth gear.

Sometimes progress is just these little tiny millimeters. You know, we just move these little tiny millimeters, but as long as we're in the right trajectory, I feel okay about it. So that's where we've been sitting for a while, um, in terms of that. Uh, but. I think for us, a big part, well, and this is where she and I are similar, um, but also differ like the concept of being bored.

And so that comes up quite a bit. Um, my boys don't ever say that to me. They never tell me that they're bored. And I as a person am never bored because I always have 10 things going on in my head. But I, I do think that our daughter can be bored and that gets dangerous. So if she can't. It's very unsettling and if she can't figure out what to do within about a second or a nanosecond Then it's going to start turning into a problem.

So we have developed I mean, it's a pretty meticulously metered life for her. Um, so far she seems to really like that. She has found a sport that she loves and so we just try to accommodate doing as many of those things as we can, uh, to keep there always being something. So like, Oh, well, we're doing that again and that's going to happen at four o'clock today or we're going to do that again and it happens tomorrow or Wednesday.

And then having some of these other things that she can do that relates to that cause she loves it so much. In the process and try to keep her from not being bored. But that is where I will completely and fully admit where I do struggle with at this point, because I feel as though we're really shackled to that.

You know, I constantly have to be the cruise director or the planner and all of that to make sure that those things are in place. And it is getting better, but I still kind of muddle sometimes in the frustration of having to act that way.

yeah, I mean, there, you know, we've been going through some medication changes and some medications really not working. And it's a mystery to me. If anyone has any expertise on why a medication will work in a child for three years and then just stop working, let me know. Cause we're like on medication to like the end of school year.

I was like, this is amazing. We're getting compliments from the teachers. Everything is great. And the medicine is just. Stop working. It's like I'm giving him, it's like I'm giving him Tic Tacs. So, you know, we're going through all that and I get, I get so, you know, I was telling my therapist, I was like, I want to say the word depressed, but that isn't the right word.

Let's like, let's like. I don't really come up with a precise word and guys, I have gotten to that point from a lot of therapy because I think before I would just be like, I'm depressed, but I'm discouraged and I get so frustrated. First of all, I get resentful. That this is my life,

yes,

like, he doesn't deserve this.

We don't deserve this there. Like, it's not fair to him that he's having to suffer in this way with all of the anxiety and fears. And then I'm over here, like nailing it with a different kid. I'm like, I am good at this. Look at like four stars, Bob.

Look at my parenting. This is

I, I can't nail the other thing and, you know, my, my therapist will say like, I don't have a, I don't know a single mother ever who has like done all of the things that you're doing and you're so proactive and I'm like, I know, I know, I know, but it's not like I, I want, I want there to be an end to this.

There will never be an end, but I just get discouraged because I'll think, okay, we got these pieces together and I think the pieces don't stay together. long enough for my,

yes,

for me. And that is scary. And. Part of me is like, well, maybe when he's grown, there will be less growth spurts and

yes, yes.

in things that keeps screwing everything up.

Um, you know, my sister in law is a pharmacist and she's like, Stephanie, I would have Uh, clients, or I don't know what you call them if you work at a pharmacy, uh, that would come in and they would cycle through medications. They'd use Zoloft for a period of time and then they would have to switch to Prozac for a period of time and then they could go back to Zoloft because they could, and I'm just like someone explain to me how all of that works because Um, I can't get my arms around it.

I mean, I'm reading about how the mechanism on how these medications work and trying to understand that better. Um, but you know, apparently you go and get your doctorate in this and understand it. I

I still probably don't understand everything, you know.

I mean, our doctor's like, I can't tell you why that medication worked for eight months and now it is not working.

So

Yeah.

it's extremely discouraging. I will say like where you have found activities for your daughter has been helpful for us. Having a friend over has been miraculous. for us. And, you know, we're finally to the point where, you know, my kids have close friends

Mm hmm.

time and covid and all that stuff was disruptive. But I mean, it's like He spent the night at a friend's house last weekend. He's having a different friend spend the night this weekend. We're having people over to swim and the cool thing is if that sounds like a lot of work, there's no work. There is no work involved when the friend is here. I ordered pizza and they are occupied doing whatever and they're getting along.

He's so flexible when he has a friend over. Do you want to play with Legos or do you want to swim? Okay, well, let's swim for a while and then how about we set a timer and we'll go have a Nerf war. And I'm just like, where is this person the rest of the time?

Yes.

But I figured out that that just it, it keeps the guardrails of social pressure up just enough

Yes.

to remind him to like check himself.

But it isn't stressful to him. It's not like being at school all day. So, I mean, for the rest of our lives, if I need to have a friend spend the night on Friday night or Saturday night, like, great. I'm

That will be what we do and see there to me. What I hear when you say that is, you know, he's working within his strengths. Like he is, he's a guy that's got ideas. He's got big ideas. He's friendly. You know, he just, he needs to understand his confines and how that social piece works. And so I could totally see, you know, him in the future.

Leading a small team of people and like they do this and he's asking people this and that, but then he's staying stimulated enough that it's fun to him and you know, that that's the kind of work environment that would really be a strength for him and I think for, for our daughter, I think that for her better understanding what's going to happen on a day to day basis and doing repetitive work is really comforting.

hmm.

And so if she could find a job where she is, you know, she knows what to expect every day. She's, she's not sitting still somewhere. She has, you know, this repetitive activity that she can do. Uh, and with her, it's with animals. Like if she could just have some kind of job where she could interact with animals every day, that would be phenomenal.

And seeing that strength. And so it goes back to what you were saying about success. You know, what, what are we labeling as success? And for us with our tricky kids, That being able to function socially and within what they're really good at. Hands down, that is success. I'm like, yes, awesome. If we can do this for the next, you know, what is it?

You know, seven years then.

I've got my eye on that clock.

We're making it. Yes.

more years.

But I also think it's really important how we have both discussed even now how we talk about it in the home because, you know, even in our generation and probably the generation before us, it was just not talked about, you know, like any kind of mental health differences.

This neurodiversity concept would not have been discussed. So if we can really normalize that and make it something that Oh, it's no different than how I tie my shoes differently than you. It's just how we think. And that's cool. You know, I think that will set them up for success. You're much better.

I think it's important to talk about because, well, and I have to say that anytime I talk about his volatility, I, I get scared that a parent from school is going to listen to this and that is going to affect their opinion of him. Um, however, I was texting with a mom the other day about her son coming and spending the night and she's like, Oh my gosh, he will love that.

And I love your podcast. And I was like, thank you for like still letting your kid come stay at my house because the volatility is just saved for us. Like he's not a danger to anybody. He's not, it isn't, it's not a reflection of his character. Um, It's unfortunately this dysregulation piece that I think As he matures, we'll get better,

Yes.

but I have noticed, I feel like literally everyone I know has ADHD because everyone is telling me because they've heard me talk about it or they see my posts on Instagram and Facebook.

So like, Oh yeah, my husband just got diagnosed with ADHD or I was thinking about getting tested for ADHD or this person. I'm like, is it everyone? I feel like it's everyone. I feel like we outnumber the neurotypical, the neurotypical people. So I think it's really helping, you know, whoever's. Taking the time to listen to this.

I think it's helping people. It's just we need to normalize it because the more we don't talk about it, then the more stigmatized it is. And let me tell you, it's, it's fun to be sitting across from somebody and them to say, I have, you know, I have autism. I mean, like some of my friends from college that were amazing actors. She, you know, one of them, she's a grown woman, she's probably 50. She just realized that she is on the autism spectrum. And it's fascinating, frankly, and, and for her to be 50 and have just put all the pieces together. But I think it's so important that when we talk about it, well then. If autism is on the table for us, that's less scary to me because I have more to refer to than, you know, whatever has been in the media about this. I just think it's important and that's why I continue to have this podcast. So,

Yeah. And honestly, like. There's nothing different about me, you know, now, you know, when I got a diagnosis years ago and like, I, there's nothing different about me. I think my brain's pretty cool. I'm like, I kind of like it. So I'm happy to talk to others about it.

yeah, I think it's awesome. And the work that you're doing and educating, educating kids and making STEM exciting and putting all those pieces together are important for whatever we're doing next. Because, you know, when we're talking about, Science, if we're not, if scientists are just sitting there and trying to perfect something we already know how to do, then they're not doing their job.

Like we need the person that looks at something differently and that's how we're going to make progress. So the different brain is very valuable. So.

 📍 Yes, totally. Totally.

we talked for a very long time and I know you have to go, so

We did. I got to go pick up those children at the aforementioned school.

yes, yes, I think that is an excellent plan and so thank you for your time today and I will talk to you soon.

Okay. I appreciate you having me.

Thanks. Bye.  

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Where the F is. My village is a Stephanie Ferris production.  Special thanks to Jason academy for writing and producing our music. Thanks for listening.