Explaining and Celebrating Your Neurodiversity: An Interview With Children’s Book Author Sivan Hong

Sivan Hong,  a mother of two boys, is the author and illustrator of the bestselling children’s book series Super Fun  Day , which shares social stories about kids with neurodiversity (autism, ADHD, dyslexia, etc.).

Today we discuss the importance of a child understanding their diagnosis and celebrating their uniqueness. We also talk about how Sivan's books help kids and their caregiver's discuss their anxiety about being different, and how to make a plan to be brave out in the world.

https://sivanhong.com/books-%26-teachers-guides

A Podcast for People Raising Tricky Kids

Transcript

  📍   Hi, villagers. Welcome back to where the F is my village. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad our village has gathered together today. How's everybody doing this time of year? I would say like the fourth quarter of the year is kind of one thing after another. So you've got your fall break. Halloween's coming up and then we're going to have Thanksgiving. Then we're going to have Christmas break, new year's Eve, all of the things. And, oh my gosh, this time of year is very hectic. And there's all of, you know, potentially the school parties and the costumes and. The gift buying and my kids have my kids' birthdays happened to be this time of year. Which just adds a whole nother level of complexity to my life. So. And when your kid is tricky, there's just all these different. Things, I feel like that come with it. You know, I do feel like my trickiest kid has gotten better at enjoying the countdown. To the events. Rather than it being pure torture the countdown. To the events. So that's good because that anticipatory anxiety or nervousness that we all feel. I mean, even if it's, you're going on a date tonight, you're going on a first date. You ha your boss asked to call you, you know, have lunch with a friend or whatever. You can have those, like burbles of nervousness and anxiety. About things that you're happy about it doesn't, it's not always a negative thing, but for people with anxiety disorder, that stuff tends to get a little over stimulated. So. We had an intense time. At silver dollar city. We rode actually, I only rode one ride, but we wrote a zillion rides. Everybody had a great time, came home, completely exhausted. But we have survived. 

So today I'm really excited because we actually have a guest. So if you're tired of listening to just me talk today as the episode for you. I have an author with us today. Her name is Sivan Hong, and she is the mother of two neuro-diverse boys. 

And she is the author and illustrator of the best-selling children's book series, super fun day books, which shares social stories about kids with neuro-diversity like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, et cetera. She also has been a professor at New York university stern school of business and a former partner of the Bridgespan group. She also happens to be a somewhat recent recipient of an ADHD diagnosis. So we can talk a little bit about like what it's like to be diagnosed when she was 47. And I think, you know, as. You know, neurodivergence is being discovered more and more in children. Their parents are uncovering all of these diagnoses and it's a lot to process. So we talk about that today. In any case we're going to get to the interview. I think you're going to really like it. So here is seven.

 Hi, Sivan. Thank you so much for being here.

Oh, thanks for having me, Stephanie.

Oh, you're welcome. So I, um, did some digging and, you know, was looking on your website and reading your biography. And I really enjoyed looking at the book series that you have that is for kids with neurodivergence. And not only for kids with neurodivergence, but you provide teacher guides that appear to be free, which is very exciting, to go along with the books.

And they have sold very well. They're very popular books and they have great reviews. Can you tell me a little bit about what motivated you to write the series?

Yeah, so, um, I'm neurodivergent myself, and have two neurodivergent boys. And when they were little, I was looking for books that would help them understand kind of their challenges, and then also the strengths that come along with being neurodivergent. And was having a hard time finding something, um, that would meet my needs, particularly that wasn't Kind of diagnosis focused, like, oh, I have ADHD, this is what it means, but more kind of, um, ways of understanding their feelings and their emotions.

And this is particularly true when my oldest son was in kindergarten and needed to wear headphones in the classroom for sensory issues. And, um, I couldn't get him to wear them because, you know, even as a kindergartner, headphones didn't feel cool,

Oh no, it's anything that draws

attention is 

that's different.

So

hard 

And so I would put stickers on them or try to show him pictures of DJs and I'm like, look, you're a DJ.

And, um, but I couldn't find a picture book that had a child wearing headphones. And so, um, I went out to kind of, Create that, so that other parents wouldn't have that same issue, as we know, particularly with younger kids, when they see something in a book, it normalizes it. Right? It doesn't seem so weird, or different, or unusual.

It's, no, this character got to do this, so I get to do it too.

Well, it's the classic representation matters. I mean, suddenly you go, wow, this book, you purchased it. This isn't like you didn't make this for me. And, you know, for me, so I have, um, just so you know. So I have three boys and two of them are neurodivergent. The jury's out on the youngest. Um, but I have two with ADHD and then I have one who also has severe debilitating anxiety disorder and he is a sensory seeker.

And I have spent thousands of hours researching and, you know, my therapist is like, you could teach classes

on this

stuff, which is why I have this podcast. But it just, my kids don't, I don't have a lot of credit with my kids. When I'm to say this or that and give them information and, you know, and I remember being a kid and being like, you have to say that to me because you're my mom, right?

So having the book, I think, is so important and I noticed, so I, I watched the link of, um, the newscaster reading your horrible Halloween book and you nailed that. So, all of the things that my kids would be mortified as far as like, first of all, everyone seems very excited to have the Halloween parade or wear their costume at school, and they might be confused as to why it's super stressful for them.

At my kids school, Um, they have like a morning assembly on Fridays once a month and they bring all the kids who's had their birthday that month, it's a small school, to the front and they sing Happy Birthday and then the music teacher puts her hand over each kid's head and everybody says their name, Riley, Carter, whatever.

Two of my kids are like, I don't want to go to school that day. I don't want to be there. I, and I'm like, you're not going to miss the whole day. I will and I will bring you 30 minutes late or I'm going to talk to the teacher. I haven't really decided, but it was, it was just, and I'm like, there's going to be 10 other kids up there.

And it's like, no, I just, I noticed the levels of applause that different kids are getting. And it's. And I remember thinking about those things too. So, you know, it's like, they want to wear their costume, but then there's this fear of looking stupid. They've had dress up days at school, like theme days, and my kids have taken everything off in the car line at the last minute, and it's too late to, like, walk them through anything.

But they don't see enough kids. that have bought into the idea. So they're panicking going, Oh, okay, I went overboard. And, you know, maybe not everyone is even doing the crazy hair day. So I'm like pulling all the hair down. There's so much fear involved. And you addressed several things just like, you know, I think there was, what if I don't even recognize my friends or my teacher?

My parents are going to be there, but what if I can't find them in the crowd? You know, and there's also the like, what if people don't think my particular costume is cool?

Yeah, I mean, like, look, my books are all based on true stories that happened with my kids. So, my, my eldest son in kindergarten, dressed up for Halloween, wouldn't get out of the car. Right? And we, sat in the car for an hour and a half. Um, until the Halloween celebrations were done, and then he got out of the car and went to school.

And as a mom, I felt like a complete failure. Because in your head, you think, Halloween is supposed to be one of these magical moments

for kids 

this is so 

It's so

much fun, right? And, and, and I'm like, what did I do as a parent? How did I fail him? Where this is what he's worried about, right? And that he doesn't want to go and experience that joy.

And it, it took about a year to understand what those drivers are. And then I put them in the book. Right? And, and in my books, you, you, kind of, they're, they're all structured with kind of lists of what the anxiety is, um, and those, those lists are all real, but then they, they also have solutions, right? So, um, so it's all the things we did with him so that he would feel Like, he could handle Halloween, and Halloween would be fun the following year, and he actually was

able to, go and

succeed and do it.

Um, and I have pictures of him that the teacher sent me of him, like, happy as can be at Halloween. Um, but all of my, all my books are true. Yeah.

I wanted to say that what I liked about it is that you kind of basically probably got out of him the things that he was worried about. And then instead of. Just kind of doing the blanket, like, you're going to have so much fun. It's going to be fine. You're worried about nothing.

It's more like, okay, you have five things you're worried about. Let's address them. So this is, you know, it's like, this is what mom and dad are going to be wearing. We're going to have a sign with your name on it. So you will be able to find us like going through the thing. I mean, I probably would have gone so far as to email the teacher and say, you know, what are you dressing as

Yes, exactly. So my kid knows that, like, that's his teacher, and, and that's okay. Um, Yeah, I mean, like, it's important to have those steps to not, to not, um, Make your child feel like their worries aren't real, or aren't important, or aren't seen. But it's also important that your child learns to feel empowered, that they can face those things on their own.

You know, I always talk about this notion of bravery, right? Like, all the kids in my book are brave. But you cannot be brave. Unless there's fear on the other side of that, right? Like, those things come hand in hand. And so, uh, accepting the fact that these fears are real and they feel really, really big coming from these little people, um, but that those kids then can do the things that they need to do to overcome those fears is, is part of why I've created the series the way I do.

They are the ones that are conquering those challenges, not us conquering it for them.

Exactly. You know, I was actually talking to, um, this school counselor at our school recently and I was saying, I'm, I try so hard to not be a lawnmower or helicopter parent, but I have a kid that's so tricky that things are just so much harder for him than, and I hate the word neurotypical, but a neurotypical kid.

And so it's trying to strike a balance of. accommodations and support with There's got to be some struggle in life. Like I'm not going to be next to him forever paving away and You know, it's it's hard to find that balance and she was you know She's like you are doing a great job of finding the balance but you know, we were having an issue where he's just not a fan of his teacher currently and so they're gonna have to work through that and I can't like come in and be like, switch classes or make his teacher be nice, which I'm sure she's being nice.

Um

he, it gets very anxious, so anything that is individual call out or attention is massive to him. So even a small redirection, like, hey buddy, you need to get back in your seat. It's everyone in the class is looking at me, I got in trouble, I, I'm the only one that gets in trouble all day, so we're working through that with him and it's hard because he, to him it feels like somebody dragged him in front of the classroom, put a spotlight on him and his teacher yelled at him.

That's how he feels. He does, and he's a very boisterous kid, but I think he likes, he wants to choose when the tension is drawn to him and

And certainly not when it's negative. He

certainly doesn't want

that. Right.

No. and he takes, um, He takes negative information, and I know this is like a thing of evolution, I kind of talk about this a lot on here, you know, you've always heard that it takes ten positive things to, you know, outweigh the one negative thing, and that's your body, like, keeping you safe, right?

Like, don't forget the thing, the berry in the bush that almost killed you, like, don't eat that. So he holds on to the negative thing, and it's as if that's the only thing that happened all day. So that is very challenging too. Do you have tips for, you know, it's like I don't want to say to him, it's not that big a deal.

Like she just told you to sit down or you admitted you and your friends were screwing around at the water fountain and she should have corrected you and probably separated you and had you sit down. But it was so humiliating and So then there's just like, my teacher hates me and I hate her.

Right. Well, and, and, and, and his response, then, Kind of feeds into it for the next time, right? He's already more anxious walking into the classroom and, and, and she probably has no idea why she's getting the responses she's getting from him because it may seem very, um,

It's outsized.

Right. Absolutely. One of the things that I have found that could work in situations like this, and again, I am an author.

I'm not a therapist. I'm school counselor. Is that if she has a code with him.

That's what I said. I said, could he have

a

signal?

A signal or a special word or something so the other kids don't know that that's what's happening. So he knows he's getting that redirection which he needs. And he doesn't feel like the attention. Is negatively shown on him.

That is what I've seen, um, some teachers do. Um, and it could be as much as like putting a green card on his desk. Right?

Okay.

it, it's something so small so that it really doesn't cause attention. And, and, and that, you know, other kids would have no idea what, what

Right. But he knows.

he knows and that's enough to redirect him.

Well, and don't feel bad about not being like a therapist.

So this

the whole, the whole of this podcast is basically, so what brought it about was I was very open on social media about our struggles and people would, Um, really relate, but feel scared to even comment, so I would get texts or direct messages asking for advice and tips and what we, you know, have done, and I just research the crap out of stuff, so I tend to know a lot of things, and, um, So the podcast is really parents or people, people raising tricky kids, trying to build a village, and that's all we can do, and I think oftentimes, you know, unless the therapist or the person has, is neurodivergent or is raising a tricky kid, Sometimes their advice, you're like, you need to come to my house.

Yep,

I even told, I literally told our therapist at one point, I said, do you remember the show Super Nanny? Where the

Yes, yes,

Well, looking back on

that 

kill our kids, by the

Well, I know, looking back on very problematic, however, sometimes I feel like I, my God, I don't really know what we should be doing.

And I'm like, I wish there were like a super nanny person that I'm like, I'll pay whatever it is, move in my house for a week and observe us and then give us feedback because it's like, I know I'm supposed to stay calm. I know I'm supposed to, you know, all of these things. And then in the moment, um, Of course, you lose your cool.

Things are very

human. are human. Right? Like, we are human. We are not textbook. One of the things that I, one of the tips that I do like to advise to parents is, oftentimes you'll be sitting in a meeting with the school and you're like, this is what my kid is like. And they look at you like you're crazy

like, he's wonderful

here 

he's so different.

Right, right, right. It's like a completely different child. So I videotape them. And then I bring the videotape to the meeting

I'm writing down.

suddenly it's not my opinion or a crazy mom perspective or whatever. It's right there. They can see it with their own eyes. And this isn't just for their challenges.

Like, there have been times where I've said, I know that my son can read at this level. He may not be doing that in the classroom, but look, here's a video of him doing what I know he can

Oh,

that's 

going on, right? Like, what is going on in the classroom that's not allowing him to demonstrate that? So, the videotaping allows us to make it not our opinion.

And to walk into those meetings with data that's kind of irrefutable.

Well, I, I love that. It's so smart because I talk a lot on here. And as a matter of fact, there was an episode that I did before school started that was just what a 504 plan is, what an IEP is, what your rights are under the law, how to advocate. And so many parents of neurodivergent, neurodivergent, why am I having a hard time saying that

Because it's a, it's just one of those words. Yes. 

say tricky

kids a lot.

Yeah, I think That's better.

Yeah, kids. They, um, have to balance. Like once they think that I am argumentative, too demanding, crazy, overbearing, I get dismissed. I know because I taught high school for two years and I was in the teacher's lounge and I could hear what people were saying about parents, And so I go into those meetings and I'm like, I have to strike a balance between advocating and making sure they're bought in. To my knowledge, and believe me, we're not going to get very far. And I know, and I hate saying that, I mean, we were at a school where we really had to battle a lot of, he seems fine all day, and um, I think they had the best of intentions but I had to send them articles on emotional restraint collapse and on anxiety, cause they're like, he seems fine.

And I'm like, do you want him to start throwing desks? Like, is holding it together.

Right.

And when he asks for a break, which he was supposed to be entitled to, and you think he seems fine, that is the best he can do, is

and, and, and how incredible that can ask for a break when he seems fine before it gets bad. That's 

That's

the goal, 

want

Right? Like, that's, that's the gold star. The other thing I do with, with all of my school meetings, um, is I always bring cookies,

Oh,

feels very like, you know, like, oh, here's the little mom bringing cookies.

But food and like, sharing that kind of love. Just takes a notch down because everybody is nervous. I'm certainly, like, super anxious myself. And it just, like, relaxes the room and it's like, Here, we're all in the same team. You

know 

it's, yeah, we're allies. I'm not here. This doesn't need to be adversarial. 

Exactly 

here to argue with you. I do know, I mean, I remember, uh, when I was teaching, I would get called, you know, it was always an assistant principal meeting was the ones

that were 

Yeah

intimidating and the other teachers would go, you know, you're entitled to have a union rep with you for this meeting.

I mean, that was like immediately where people went, you're going to get accused of something. We're going to argue and I taught high school. So, and so it's a whole different thing than, you know, my kids are in middle and, um, elementary school currently, but I just, that's what I observed. And. I also every time say, listen, I taught for two whole years.

It was the hardest thing I've ever done. And my mom is a retired teacher. And so I just want you to know that I know I am asking the impossible because you're overworked. You have too many kids. You don't have enough resources. And I know this is so hard. However, I have to advocate for my kid, so we need to figure out how I can ask for things that are reasonable, that you're able to pull off.

And I think when I say to them, instead I'm just like, I have a whole list of things need to be doing. Sitting there and going, I know that. But he needs to take a walk, or he needs to go, they called it the resource room, you there were like swings and all that stuff. And I would say, I know, there's only like two people that ever have any availability to walk him down there.

But he does need breaks, so we need to figure out how we're going to do this and how we're going to communicate with him because I can't tell him, sorry buddy, there's no one available to take you to the resource room, so they just, we're not going to ask for it. It's really hard because you have to get a buy in from the teacher and from the school.

And I just remember emailing them just articles and studies about what anxiety in kids can look like at school, trying to educate them.

Well, because so many of these teachers, these poor teachers, who don't, um, they just don't get the training. Right? Like, we throw all of these expectations on them, and, and they don't have the PD around this. They don't understand, unless they're a special ed teacher. Nobody has trained them on this stuff, and suddenly we're like, and here is a litany of things that you have to do.

Um,

Well, and, yeah, I mean, I think when I, one of the things that was so, um, like, just overwhelming to me when I was a teacher was not just coming in and, you know, teaching the lesson I had planned. It was all of the things like I had a kid show up one day at fourth hour because he lived far away and his parents were mad at him and they made him walk to school and I had, you know, a kid that I thought was probably not eating and a kid that probably was staying at a friend's house because his parents had kicked him out.

Like there's so many things and the overwhelming pressure to have, you know, I had 180, 200 kids. I To be able to individualize and be concerned, and it was like this tidal wave, it was kind of this like, I can't save everybody, I don't know, you know, I didn't, and I was also, in my defense, I was 23, but

I

was very young, and I didn't have any proper training on, You know, when this kid walked in and he's like dripping sweat and he's like, yeah, my mom got mad at me and made me walk to school.

First of all, God bless this little boy. He walked to school and he made it a fourth, fourth hour instead of giving up and doing who knows what. And no one told me who to alert, what to say. I, I didn't know. So you're absolutely right. Teachers are being asked to do so much beyond educate.

Right 

and...

I think that you, if you come to those meetings with data, right, so you have those videos and you come with your cookies because you want to break down the barriers, but there are ways to come with solutions instead of saying, here's the laundry list of things that my kid needs. It's.

Here's the issue that you are going to face, and this is the solution. So it's not a list of demands, it's a list of solutions for them. And you, by framing it that way, you show the teachers that doing this actually helps them.

Right 

Well, and

what's going to make your life easier.

I know, I would 

we're

aligned.

Help, me help you. I, every year I would call, and I would talk to this school counselor, because it was, there was, you know, it's a lot of turnover, so I would have kind of build my case as quickly as possible in like this elevator speech. And I would just say, here's the thing, My kid is tricky and there are, I'm sure, teachers here that naturally are great at dealing with tricky kids.

They have flexible seating, him getting up and walking around or turning his pen into a rocket is not going to bother that teacher. And then there are teachers that's going to be very stressful for them. And I think in order to set your entire school up for success. Could you please put my child with the teacher who just has a natural knack for, you know, because we had this one teacher and I feel like at some point I was like, so just, you know, so, you know, my son has ADHD and she's like, oh, I know, 

Right

Right? Right, right,

But

that's,

Yeah, she never reached out to me because him needing to get up and pace the classroom or fly his pen through the air the whole time. She was teaching, was not distracting to her. I can tell you that would be hard for me to try to teach and somebody doing that. So I empathize with the person who can't, but I just said, I think it would be helpful to everyone.

And, and they always, I mean, I always would research and kind of be like, this is the teacher I think that would be the best fit, but I know I can't request a

teacher 

Right, But here, let me describe all of the characteristics this has and say this is the kind of teacher that would be ideal

Exactly. And they usually go, She's right. Let's not make this a fight all school year. And then there are kids that thrive in those more formal settings.

Lucy Goosey is very stressful for them. So the teacher that has flexible seating and exercise balls you can sit on and stuff might be very stressful to certain

Right, That's right, you would think they would be thinking about that when they set up their classes. But

I 

sure they try.

we had this wonderful fourth grade teacher, um, for, for one of my sons and he was on the stricter side and, um, I went to him in the beginning of the year and I said, look, if my son is looking at you while you are teaching.

There's something wrong. That means he's, like, zoning off and he's not paying attention and he's about to, like, cause trouble. I'm like, so, he does much better if he's focused on something else and just listening. And that way you know you have his full attention. So is it okay if he just sits there with a Rubik's Cube during class time?

And if he does that, which may seem weird, but if he does that he will learn everything you're teaching him and his behavior will be kind of... best of class. And to this teacher's credit, he said, okay, let's give it a shot. And it worked perfectly for the whole year. But that's not something he, this teacher would have come to me and say, right, like maybe your son needs a Rubik's Cube.

No, but I know that like my son can't even watch a movie without a Rubik's Cube or a video game or something else on

there needs to be, yeah, my son put it really well sometimes. One time he said, you, having something in my hand sends the energy, like it gives it an outlet, so that then it kind of frees up my brain so that I can listen. So if he can sit there and fidget or, you know, Just like, draw on a piece of paper, just scribbles or whatever.

It looks like, the hard thing is it looks like he's checked out.

he 

but that's the opposite.

right. His body is able to do something physically, and I'm so proud of him. I remember one time he was in fourth grade, and he had a teacher. Who was on the stricter side and was struggling with his, he just kind of has this squirrely ADHD, just lots of like a random karate chop in the middle of day.

And she said, why do you always have something in your hands? And he said, because if I have something in my hands, it gives me something to focus on and then I can focus on you. And to her credit, she went, Okay. 

Right 

Thank you. I mean, I didn't appreciate the tone that she used with him, but I'm sure, I'm sure he was, you know, there are times, we used to let him eat dinner standing.

Like we were never like, you need to sit, you know, all this table manners. It was like, just get the food in you, man. If you need to stand because your body, um, he's just like, my body is, my brain is always telling my body to move. And that was fine for us. But, you know, some people that would be very stressful.

Um, so let me ask you this, because this reminded me of a time that he was at a friend's house all day, and she has two little girls who are fairly neurotypical, and she made them sandwiches, and she's like, He, um, stood up at the kitchen table and ate the whole time and was kind of like spinning around and it wasn't a problem, but it was definitely like, never seen this before.

ha ha.

And so something I think a lot of people don't think about is how you're relating the information about your kids to your friends and your family. Because if they don't get it, and in this case it wasn't a problem, but if they don't get it, there's a lot of, um, perception of lack of discipline. Like you're not strict enough, and that's why your kid is karate chopping when we're having Thanksgiving.

Well look, like we know ADHD is not caused by bad parenting. Right? It's just not. It has nothing to do with parenting. And as parents, we have to keep reminding ourselves of this, right? Because Sure, you know, letting my son use a Rubik's Cube in the middle of math seems like I am letting him run amok. But, but really, that's how he learns math.

So we know, right? And look, the other thing I think we face is that people don't think it's real, Oh, ADHD, that's just an excuse for their bad behavior, right? That's the other piece of it, that not real. Um, and, The way I have found that that works best for our family is that I educate my kids, right?

So that they know that their brain works differently. Not better, not worse, just differently. And the world may not understand that, so they need to learn how to advocate for themselves and how to be proud of the fact that their brain works differently. Um, I didn't get diagnosed Until after my kids did, because like so many of us, like in the 1970s, nobody was diagnosing girls with ADHD, sure.

had pretty

unruly to 

um, to get that. And so when I got diagnosed, and I came home, and I told my kids, and they both high fived me. They're like, welcome to the club, mom.

Right like

you want it to be that kind of thing? That they feel good about because the world is going to constantly tell them that they're wrong and that the way they are is wrong.

And it could be family, and it could be friends, and it could be teachers at school, and it could end up being, you know, the soccer coach or whatever. And we can try to tell all those people, and some of them will get it, and many of them will not. But if we don't instill that sense of pride of who they are in our kids, then, then it, Then it's going to become a problem, right?

What we can control is the messages they hear from us, so that they feel good about themselves.

And I think an understanding of how their brain works is so important, and that's one of the things that I really like about your books, is it talks at a level, I think they're, um, Intended for like three to nine age

3 to 9, yep,

So, and, you know, I, I actually posted a TikTok yesterday about how my son that's so anxious, we started seeing his anxiety when he was three.

And multiple people commented and said people don't think you can observe anxiety when they're three. And thank you for posting this because it makes me feel crazy. But I always tell people, I'm like, listen, he was the happiest baby on the block. Like. Jolly chubby, so like easy baby. And the more, like the closer he got to three, the more aware of the complexities of the world that a house could catch on fire, you know, that there's.

People that could break into your house. He was so fixated on those things, whereas another kid might just say, What's that? And you go, Oh, that's a smoke detector in case, you know, it detects smoke in case there's a fire. We can call the fire department and they go, Oh, okay. And they move on. He was like, Whoa, wait, my house could catch on fire.

What, you know, and then you're having to be like, well, you know, it's so rare, you know. Which actually, there have been two house fires in my neighborhood in the last

year

I know. Luckily, he is older now and has not pulled that into a fear that our house is going to burn down yet. Um, and now I'm afraid. I really want to go and try to find a way to, as diplomatically and non diplomatically, terrible as possible be like, can you tell me why your house caught on fire?

ha.

ha 

Is it a hoverboard? What happened? Um, because I, I don't want my house to catch on fire either. I have anxiety. So my brain is like, Oh my gosh, I need to find out what happened so that I can make sure that we don't encounter that because I don't want to fire. But fact that, you know, we did so many workbooks trying to educate him on how his body felt because he didn't know when he was anxious and when he was anxious he was tough to live with and pretty volatile, throwing things, breaking things, just meltdowns.

And I love the way your book is really super geared to its simple language. It doesn't overcomplicate things. The illustrations are simple. You, you intent, were intentional about the font you used, so that it's easier for someone with dyslexia or another kind of reading difference to read it. But the more they understand, like I've read books to my kids, and it's reading, you know, the various, types of ADHD or symptoms or whatever and they're going I do that.

Oh, I do that and it's just sitting there going like validating validating validating and like understanding why they do certain things so

But it's also reminding them of how cool they are for having that difference, right? Because as we started this conversation, when they're little, any difference, it could be that somebody's too tall or too short or has the wrong hair color, any difference is something that they want to avoid,

yeah

Um, which is developmentally normal, but we want to show them that this kind of difference that they have brings incredible gifts with it. And, unfortunately, the school systems are not designed to bring out those gifts, but that doesn't mean that those gifts don't exist. You know, there, there was a study done recently at Harvard where they, they looked at two groups of astrophysicists.

One group that had Dyslexia and the other group that didn't, right? These are all PhDs and astrophysicists, and they show them images of black holes, and the group with dyslexia was able to identify the black holes three to four times faster, and with more, um, and more, um, credible than the other group.

And it is because people with dyslexia have better spatial

understanding

right? And these two groups have the same education and the same background. But one group is biologically advantaged in this way than the other group. But if you talk to a seven year old with dyslexia, they would think that there's something wrong with them because they can't read.

that is not true. It is that this is a system that is designed for one kind of learner.

it's

not highlighting all of the strengths that kids like ours can bring

to the table 

Well, and our brains are actually not designed to read. I mean, when you're learning how to read, your brain is having to physically change. And when, you know, teachers or schools or school systems are freaking out that a kid can't read by the end of third grade, I'm like, can you give his brain... His brain, literal time to go through some evolution so that he can digest.

I have a friend whose son is dyslexic and he feels, he feels dumb. And I told her, I said, you know, this is made up all of these characters that somebody put on a piece of paper. Like there's just been a collective buy in that this all means, means something. And. A hundred years ago, maybe even more recently than that, not everybody needed to read.

It was a small population that needed to read so people could think you were a genius. Because no one put a book in front of you to discover you were dyslexic or had a reading difference. Like, it's interesting how we're just, we're in 2023, there's all of these accepted norms, and you look through history and it was, you know, like, until the Reformation, like 2 percent of the population could even read.

That was the whole point. We want to be able to read the Bible too.

right.

But our brains aren't designed to do it, and I feel like sometimes I'm sitting in front of an educator, and you know, in our state, if you don't pass a reading test at the end of third grade, like, the law says they have to hold you back.

So no pressure, kids. No pressure at all. You just might not get to be with your friends next year, and, and the, but the research shows that by fifth grade, they kind of all level out. But, I don't know, we're in a hurry. I just am 

in

a

hurry 

yeah.

and, and we're missing out on incredible talent. Right? Like, by reminding these kids day in and day out that there's something wrong with them.

Mm

They are not going to develop into the best they can be. You know, this summer that movie Oppenheimer came out, right? And

we think

about him as this great genius.

And in the movie they showed his mentor, who is a physicist named Niels Borg, who won the Nobel Prize. And he's the guy who figured out that the atom has a proton and an electron and a neutron and it looks the way it does. Niels Borg couldn't write. He probably had dysgraphia of some kind. And... He had to, to, to dictate his entire dissertation for his doctorate to his mother to write because otherwise he couldn't do it.

But can you imagine somebody with that brain power in our education system and we would tell him, I'm sorry, you can't go to fourth grade can't write, right? that is, that is what we are doing. Instead of saying, let's focus on what you can do and the incredible strengths you bring, you And highlight that, right?

We are focusing on what you can't do in terms of being quote unquote normal.

I think that's so important and you know, it's so hard. I think oftentimes kids who are neurodivergent oftentimes are also Gifted, in some way. So, my son is gifted. And so brilliant, like every time you ask him to do something, first he has to invent something to like make it easier. So he's gotta go build something.

He can't just pick his clothes up. He has to somehow elaborately create this thing to pick his clothes up. So smart. And he's really struggling in math right now. It's entirely possible that he has some kind of number disorder, we're looking into that. But he, I mean it's just crushing his spirit. And just this week I had to say to him.

One thing that's really hard about being gifted, and he's like, I'm not gifted at math, and I was like, well, probably not. But I said, is that you think you should be excellent at everything. And I said, maybe math is not your jam. And I said, there is not a day when I was a kid that I didn't sit at the kitchen table and cry the whole time I did math.

The whole time.

And 

is

he 

He's in fifth.

Okay, so he's not doing math. He's doing arithmetic.

In

In, like five years from now, a computer will do all that stuff that he can't do. Real math has nothing to do with numbers in the way that he's learning math.

Mmm, tell

me

more.

you know, real math, if you look at mathematics like a language, because that's what it is.

Mathematics is this incredible language that helps us understand the world around us. And the things he is learning is just memorization,

That's the thing, and he has no working memory. 

So

when gets, when he gets older and people use calculators or, you know, spreadsheets, he may turn out to love math because there's an unbelievable creativity and logic built into math that he may really enjoy.

So you can say to him, you don't like arithmetic right now, which is fine. But in five years, you may grow to love what math actually is, because that may tap into the part of your brain that allows you to do all those problem solving things that you do in terms of, let me create an invention to pick up my clothes.

Those are skills that you need in real mathematics, 

Well 

stuff he's learning

so interesting that you say that because, first of all, he goes to a private school that is a regiofamilia school. So it is, I always tell people, it's more woo woo than Montessori. 

Yeah 

he has the most amazing math teacher and You know, they did an activity recently, they called it a mingle, where they had, you know, 30 kids in the classroom, and then she said, okay, split into groups of five.

And then they split into groups of five, and then if there were anybody left, like two kids left, then they were out. It was kind of like a math musical chairs. And then she would call out another number, and she'd say, okay, break into groups of seven. And the kids started going, say four, say four, because then you're going to get five kids out.

Like she said. Just tricking them into multiplication, tricking them. And I was like, where was this when I was a kid? Because what you're saying is really resonating with me, because math makes sense to him. But when you put a problem on the paper and you say, understand what these symbols mean and

And go long division, right? Like,

Exactly. exactly. And I, I really, I do appreciate his school because his math teacher, I mean, his class sizes are very small because it's a private school. So very, very fortunate to be there. So his teacher said, I will sit with him and we will verbally discuss the And we'll talk through them and he can give me the answer.

It's the writing that, and that's why I'm a little curious about if he has dyscalculia or something. And I don't even know saying that right. Cause that's a new term for me, but that's interesting that you say that. And it's, and they do let them use calculators. I think they have admitted. to themselves that we all have a calculator on our wrist and in

our

pocket and You know, you don't need to be able to multiply four times three as long as you understand You've got four groups of three and you're just trying figure out the total like just understand what's happening I think is the thing and when when I was a kid, I memorized my multiplication table.

They would time us doing it. I Didn't know what I was doing.

Well, and remember

they used to

they used to tell us it's not like you're going to walk around with a calculator on your wrist. They to tell us

And you're like, guess what? Surprise. I have a calculator at all 

wrist

Right. But like, but that's the sort of thing, right? Where like, if you turn it around with reading, just because you're not good at reading letters, doesn't mean as you get older and start listening to audiobooks, you may, you could still love literature. Right?

Like you

may be bad at doing long division and still become fascinated with mathematics.

It's some of these building blocks that Traditional education says it's necessary, and I understand why they say it. But it should not limit where your child ends up going.

That's so interesting. I think, you know, especially in the public school system, there's so many kids. And, you know, in my experience, let's say there's 36 kids in a fourth grade class. They have to teach to the middle. And they have

to 

They do.

And there's kids that are way ahead, and there's kids that are way behind, and I know that our former school, they would work hard to try to separate the kids where it was like, the kids who are way ahead, the kids who are a little bit ahead, and the kids on track, where they were trying to put them together, and then maybe The kids that were on track and a little behind they would so that a teacher wasn't trying to teach someone that was two grades behind and four grades ahead at the same time, but then you'd have like a new transfer come in and you had to stick them someplace.

So there was always they had good intentions, but it was always a mess. And so, you know, I'm realizing there's just so many things that we can be doing at home to, you know, whether it's baking or playing Monopoly, you know, Or I found, um, via social media, I found a game company, I think it's called Simplifun.

And all of their games sneak math and multiplication and things into it. And a little gambling. Because it's just, there's, so you're trying to figure

out 

that's exactly probabilities. I that's

yes. Exactly, and I do those things. And you know, my kid may never be able to put a worksheet in front of him. It's so funny, my oldest.

Son, he's like Will Hunting, like math just makes sense to him, and the other night when he was supposed to be going to bed, he texted me a photo of one of his algebra problems, and it was, it involved fractions and multiple X's and Y's. I mean, it was just nothing that I could do, and but I was like, I'm gonna get a scrap of paper, and I'm gonna see if I could do this.

Anyway, did not get there

ha

ha.

and he was just texting me. I think it was probably 20 steps and he's like, okay, you have to multiply everything by the two. And then you have to do this. It was, I thought we were done at some point. Like, how are we still doing steps? What is happening? And my father's like, go to bed!

And he's like, and the answer is 19! I'm

just like

I would never, our lives could be at stake. And I would never have gotten to 19. But it makes sense to him. He's capable of following all of those steps. In a way, he's like, this is so easy. I'm so glad that this is easy for someone. it makes sense to him.

but 

at the heart, that's what all neurodivergence is, right, or neurodiversity, that all of our brains are good at certain things, right? And they're not all the same, and that's okay, just like we're not all the same height. And I think it's a biological advantage that we're not all the same.

Oh yeah, I

mean

That's I tell my, I did a whole like, ADHD pride episode, and I went through and just, all of the people, um, who have ADHD, or who are on the spectrum, or diverse in some way. And I tried to tell my kids, I'm like, without these people, We would still be using a straw broom

because

for hundreds of years, that's what we swept with.

And somebody went. What there's gotta be better and they invented the Swiffer and then now that it exists, you're like, why didn't we have, like, this is so obvious and then there's been offshoots of that, but if, you know, and it's like Henry Ford had said, if I asked people what I should build, they would have said a faster horse, but his brain was like, how can I do this with the technology available and he invented alongside some other people, he wasn't the only inventor of the car I have since learned when talking to my kids

about this

But. We need those people. It's good for all of us to have the person who looks at the world differently. If we all look at everything the same, life would be very boring, first of all. There would, there are a lot of art, movies, music, inventions,

So much would be missing and so I just want that by the time our kids get out of school that they still are loving the fact that they think differently. Right? Because we don't want them going off into the world and keeping all of those amazing ideas to themselves because they don't want to be different.

We want to encourage that difference, not just for us and for their self esteem, but for the benefit of the world so can come up with whatever art or invention or whatever it is, identify some new black hole, right, that nobody else could have done but them.

Yeah. It's hard. I, you know, sometimes I'm like, they just need to survive school. They just gotta make it through school so that they can go. Because, you know, when you're in school, because they're having, they just, it's numbers. They have to teach a certain way. Once you're out in the world, you can find the job that makes sense for your disposition, for the way your brain works.

And, you know, I know someone who struggled all the way through school, and now they work in recruiting. It is like the most perfect job for him. He chats with people all day. He is great. He has a great emotional IQ. And... He was a little beat down by school as a child, and you know, maybe school is so hard for you because there's so many people and it's so loud and you can't focus.

And when you get put in your cubicle with your Microsoft Excel, you might just cry.

you're happy. Right, that's right. Somebody out there is really happy with the cubicle with the

Yes, give me a cubicle and I will put my headphones on and I will do this spreadsheet and I will have the best, most calm, quiet day. we need those people because I would die if you put me in a cubicle. But, not to, we need every different type of brain. Um, that's so interesting. So, I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you about.

So as far as I know, I do not have ADHD. Sometimes I go through life and I think, do I have ADHD? But I take all the quizzes and I don't. I have anxiety, which causes a lot of ADHD behaviors as far as once I'm Activated, forgetting things, being disorganized, you know, getting halfway to wherever, and realizing I didn't bring the birthday cake.

But it's, I think, more about an anxious brain that gets activated and is spinning out. So, and I have done a ton of research on ADHD because that's the children that I have. But I was wondering, for parents out there who are neurotypical, And the thought of reading 5, 000 articles on neurodivergent is overwhelming.

What would you encourage them to do, or what do you think would be important for them to know? About kid.

neurodivergence is not kind of a one size fits all. We talk about autism as a spectrum, right? And people understand. More so that

Mm hmm.

not everybody is the super smart white boy as the kid, right? That there is a range of possibilities. But that is true for all kinds of neurodivergence, right?

So, so ADHD is going to look different in you than it will look in me, right? It is not this kind of one size all bucket. And so if you think that your child is demonstrating some sorts of things that could mean that they get a diagnosis, do it sooner,

That's what I all the time.

I'm get The 

intervention, earlier the intervention, the more, um, helpful it can be.

There was a recent study, really recent, like a month ago, out of Boston Children's Hospital that said, When they looked at 300 kids who were diagnosed with autism as toddlers, um, a third of them were no longer diagnosable by the time they were nine.

Oh, that's fascinating.

And, they said it had a lot to do with the early intervention, that's what they're thinking, um, that these kids got.

And it doesn't mean these kids stop being autistic because their brains are the way their brains are. But it means that they wouldn't qualify for an IEP in school anymore because they wouldn't need all of those accommodations. So if you have a mom. Right? Like, we know our kids better than anybody, and see if you can get your child evaluated. Um, because, that's when you can help them the most. I went to six different therapists before I got my youngest son

Hmm. Wow.

Every single one of them, and he was two, so he was little. Every single one of them said, he's just gifted.

Which is a lovely thing for you to hear when you're two year old. Oh, that's great But that's not the truth and I knew it

I would love for someone to come up with a word besides gifted because has a It doesn't match what it is at all

well, but people don't understand that giftedness is a part of neurodivergence

Mm hmm.

that is a different kind of brain But but I knew that like that wasn't the truth and so Trusting my gut as a mom got him the interventions that have allowed him to be as successful as he is today.

So, go out there and, and, and seek that diagnosis, and then really trust what your heart tells you, and keep going you need to. But the earlier you get to these kids, the easier it is going to be for them. It doesn't mean that they're going to be neurotypical, and I don't think we want them to be. It just means that we can make their path through the education system easier for them to go through.

Well, and I, one thing that I always try to focus on is it's so important for their self esteem and mental health to understand themselves. So, even if, you know, I've talked to people before and they're like, I probably have ADHD and I'm pretty sure my kid does, but you know, we're all fine. And, I just want to go, it's entirely possible that your kid is sitting through school all day wondering why XYZ is so hard for them, and it seems easier for someone else, and they're thinking negative thoughts, and they're not voicening them to anyone.

You know, I always joke about this, I didn't know I had anxiety until I took a BuzzFeed quiz that was like, 50 signs that you

Yeah.

And I was like, because I'm not inside anyone else's brain. I...

know what you don't know.

I had nothing to compare it to. I thought everybody else was terrified the entire time that the teacher was taking attendance because you, you, am I going to say here, I'm going to say present, am I going to raise my hand?

And then I'd flub it. It was like one word. Um, and so I think even if you feel like your kid's doing great at school and there isn't any issues, I just think the better they understand themselves. It's so important to their future. I just know so many people like, like you who their kids are getting diagnosed, uh, you know, diagnosed.

And then because some of this stuff is hereditary, particularly ADHD, it passes through 

of

it. Most of it's hereditary.

so you're sitting there and I can't even tell you how often I hear, so my kids got diagnosed and then the therapist looked at me

Yeah. 

said 

And dead 

would

you like to talk? And particularly women, they go, Oh my gosh.

This explains so much. This is why I have to write everything down. This is why I have to have an alarm on my phone or I will forget to pick my kids up from school. Not because you've forgotten your children. They still exist to you. You are just focused on what is in front of you. And just time blindness and all of those things, so I think not only for accommodations or support at school, but mental health for the individual and just the more you understand yourself, the better.

I would love it if somebody would print something out and say, Stephanie, this is the manual on why you are the way you are across the board. It

Well, that's why doing a neuropsych is a fun experience because you get, you get a lot of those explanations. And look, when I, I was diagnosed at 47 and um, I went through this period where I was angry post diagnosis, not because I was upset for having ADHD. I was angry that I had to wait until I was 47 to figure out.

Why I struggled in school. Why spelling is so hard for me. Why all these things that I thought that I was dumb. Or that, like, why was it so much harder for me? Like, I, that is a normal response when you get diagnosis as an adult. And you don't want to have your kids go through that. Life would have been so much easier had I known.

I think just knowing and understanding yourself, and knowing how you're different, and, you know, my anxiety was so bad when I was a kid. I have this distinct memory of standing in our laundry room with the door open to the garage, and, my parents should not have done this, but anyway, I think they had no idea what to do with me, and I'm just crying, and they're pulling out of the driveway and the garage is going down, and I just felt like if I wasn't with them...

that they could die. Like there, there was just really good odds they were going to die while they went to dinner. It just, it, none of it made any sense. I didn't know why I felt that way, but it felt very, very real to me. And I, not that I thought I could protect them, but it's like I gotta keep my eye on them.

Gotta make sure everybody's okay all of the time. And now that I'm an adult, I'm like, oh my gosh, I was dealing with all these emotions that I remember at one point my mom was like, yeah, we almost put you in counseling. And I'm like, you know, it was the early

80s 

Right, nobody that

No one

did 

just not a thing.

You

kind of just survived and then you were fine. Um, but we can do it now  📍 and should it now if we have the means

to do 

Awesome. Well, Sivan, it's so nice to meet you. I appreciate you being here today.

for having me. What a great chat.

This is a good conversation. All right, well, maybe we'll see you next time you have a new book out.

Will do.

  Hey villagers. Thank you for listening today. I'm so glad you were here. I really appreciate your time. I have a little favor to ask though, if you're enjoying the podcast and you want it to continue, I could use your help. If you haven't left a review  📍 yet, if you listen to it on apple podcasts, I would be forever grateful. If you'd go on to apple podcasts and click, leave a review. 

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Where the F is. My village is a Stefanie Phariss production.  Special thanks to Jason academy for writing and producing our music. Thanks for listening.