The other Minns - our strata commish speaks

In this week’s Flat Chat Wrap we welcome freshly minted Strata Commissioner John Minns (not to be confused with NSW Premier Chris Minns) to tell us about his new role, his challenges and hopes.

For the past two years John has been NSW Property Services Commissioner, keeping an eye on real estate agents, strata managers and building managers – and lots of ancillary professions and trades.

Now he’s taking strata under his wing in an expanded role – and it’s quite an expansion.

In today’s podcast we talk about “cradle to grave” regulations for strata schemes, training and licensing, transparency and the 139 recommendations for strata law reforms currently before parliament.

We touch on Airbnb and unlicensed operators, embedded networks  and initial AGMs.  John even listens to Jimmy’s “out there“ idea for fast-track dispute resolution and how it could be turned into a TV show combining the appeal of  Judge Judy with The Block.

It’s a longer-than-usual episode of the podcast, and the Zoom audio quality is not perfect, but it makes fascinating listening, hearing what John’s priorities are and the challenges he faces.

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Flat Chat is all about apartment living, especially in Australia.
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Recorded by Jimmy Thomson & Sue Williams; Transcribed by Otter.ai; Transcription tidied up and sensified by Raphie.
Find out more about Sue Williams and Jimmy Thomson on their websites.

Transcript

Jimmy  00:00

Sue Williams, you're back.

Sue Williams  00:01

Yes, just briefly. I'm going away again tomorrow. 

Jimmy  00:05

You're here; you're in the hot seat. And what a hot seat it is today, because we have a special guest on the podcast, the newly-anointed Strata Commissioner John Minns, is coming in to tell us about what his job is, what he's doing and what he's hoping for. I think it's going to be a really interesting chat. 

Sue Williams  00:23

Excellent; looking forward to that. 

Jimmy  00:25

So we'd better get on with it. I'm Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.

Sue Williams  00:31

And I'm Sue Williams and I write about property for Domain.

Jimmy  00:33

And this is the Flat Chat Wrap. Hello, John, how are you?

John Minns  00:52

Good morning, Jimmy. Good morning, Sue!

Jimmy  00:53

Our listeners will not realise that this is the second time we've said hello, because I forgot to switch on record, but such is technology; it's sent to try us. 

Sue Williams  01:03

And congratulations on your new role as Strata Commissioner.

John Minns  01:07

Thank you, Sue. I think it's probably an important recognition, of just how important strata is in New South Wales and in fact, everywhere in Australia.

Jimmy  01:15

Alright, now that gets us straight into our first question... John, what do you think apartment resident's perception of your role might be?

John Minns  01:24

It's an interesting question, Jimmy. I listened to someone wise, who once said 'your opinion of me is none of my business.'  I tend to look at this and say, why is it important and why should people view it as being important? So from my perspective, my role is ultimately, to restore and build confidence in the sector. And the reason that's important is I don't think we can support owners and residents in strata with things like escalating cost of living, sustainable and resilient buildings, personal amenity, or any of that asset protection that's so important, if we don't get this right. So I'm absolutely on record as saying that without confidence in strata, the New South Wales property sector can't deliver on many of those real challenges.

Jimmy  02:11

What are your actual functions as Strata Commissioner?

John Minns  02:15

At this stage, can I maybe just start by talking priorities? Because I think this is probably a critical area of it and I think the functions flow from those priorities pretty neatly anyway. So the first of those, is looking ultimately, at the end-to-end strata lifecycle. So if we're going to reform and future-proof the sector, we need to start at the point of sale, and ultimately, go through to the potential for knockdown/rebuild. So there's a fairly broad set of responsibilities that are going to sit in there. Second part of that is the raising of professional standards across the sector. Now, one thing that hasn't happened really, in probably the last 20 years of us having nationally-accredited training being used for licencing purposes, is a true alignment between your licencing, educational and performance outcomes. And in strata in particular, the specialist skill sets that are emerging, are really ultimately, going to need a really good look at your micro- credentials, and a better structure for licencing and educational requirements. So we're looking at that very closely.  And the third element of this, which goes to regulatory practice, is that concept that regulatory practice genuinely needs to be trusted and customer-centric. We need to have a much better approach to intelligence-led and harm-focused regulatory practice in New South Wales. That's also going to include increased transparency and communication. So those three areas are really what we're talking about. They are priorities, but obviously, there's a bunch of functions that need to sit underneath that. 

Sue Williams  03:54

That sounds fantastic. It sounds like a big job, though. You're also dealing with strata managers and real estate agents and I think sometimes a lot of apartment owners see those people as having different priorities to them. Are you making sure that apartment residents aren't an afterthought to those commercial interests?

John Minns  04:17

Look, I hope that perception either is not out there, or doesn't last for terribly long. I think the thing Sue, that we've got to be very clear about, is the regulator's role is to protect and advance the issues of consumers. And nowhere in the property sector is that more important than for strata residents. So I sort of look at the balance of industry-versus-consumer and in fact, all the way across this property sector. One of the greatest dangers I can see in the strata sector is, that if it sits there as an island, with no bridge from the rest of that residential property sector... We're talking about 50% of greater Sydney residents living in strata within 15 years, and what that means is that half or more of all property sold and leased by real estate agents, for example, are going to be in strata. So we've got to get this right at a holistic level, as well as simply looking at the individual players and practitioners and consumers in strata itself.

Jimmy  05:15

We've had the first tranche of strata law tweaks recently. I mean, a whole bunch of very different things. Well firstly, how are they progressing through parliament, because parliament has to approve them. And secondly, what's next? What's the next cab-off-the-rank?

John Minns  05:32

I think the most important thing, because these recommendations have been out for a number of years now, as you know. They are actually now before Parliament, and they're being discussed. I would love to see at least those phase-one reforms passed sooner rather than later. I have no control over that, but I think it is very, very important for confidence, that people see action being taken from those 139 recommendations. My understanding is the new government has endorsed all 139, so that's a good start, but I think the next part, when we talk tranche two; when we talk about what needs to happen next, is going to be bigger and more complex and I think we've got to be fairly ambitious about what happens after this, rather than just what's happening now.

Sue Williams  06:21

And also, we've got tourism starting to grow again and I think a lot of apartment people are a bit worried about Airbnb, and short -term letting in their buildings. Are there any kind of plans to offer more control and relief to apartment owners and residents?

John Minns  06:36

This is raised so often, and particularly in different areas of the state. I have to, hand-on-heart say to you this hasn't been at the absolute top of the list of priorities, because of the things that we've already talked about. But I think what we can say is that we know Fair Trading administers the code of conduct for short -term rental accommodation. That's the thing that focuses on the behaviour of all industry participants; rights, obligations, dispute resolution, etc. And they're obviously concerned about therefore, the professional performance of hosts and letting agents, who've all got obligations under that code of conduct. But of course, the Department of Planning oversees the planning elements of it and these are the things that we need to look at. 

Sue Williams  06:47

Absolutely. And is that registry working; the short-term holiday lets register? 

John Minns  07:12

I know there's a review happening, or is due to happen, from the Department of Planning, in relation to the short-term residential framework. From our perspective, right now, probably my major concern in the space is the likelihood of unlicensed property services operators working in the space, which seems highly likely to be the case. And the thing, from our perspective, that's going to undermine the premises register and consumer protection, is if we've got reputable businesses doing the right thing and being licenced and a bunch of unlicensed operators who are essentially, treating it in a very cowboy-like fashion. And that's not going to help anybody. I think noting that Planning are looking at reviewing it, we have had only very limited complaints really, given the volume of what's happening in Airbnb. I think in the 15 months to September 2023, there was only 96 complaints and about another 150 inquiries. It hasn't been as front-of-mind, Sue. I understand that it's important to many of your listeners, but it's just not one that has been absolutely at the top of my priority list. But that's what I'm aware of at the moment. 

Sue Williams  08:35

Those figures are quite low, aren't they really?

Jimmy  08:38

You guys at Fair Trading, and also through Property Services; we know about embedded networks, and we know the kind of rorts of one sort or another... What is being done about it? We hear a lot of talk about it, but we don't hear any talk about anything being done about it.

John Minns  08:57

I know you and I have had a brief conversation on this before, Jimmy. There's a few few issues around around this. One is, I think embedded networks are not understood to the level  that they need to be. We have an absolute obligation at this stage, to destroy business models that are built around allowing capital costs for a developer to be entirely operationalized and then passed on to new owners as really inflated maintenance costs, or even excessive and uncompetitive utility costs. Those things are of genuine concern. So I think there's a few things that are obviously going on in that space at the moment.  Firstly, the government response to the parliamentary inquiry into embedded networks will be important. It's still sitting there as a priority. And there's a few things there... One is bringing hot and chilled water into the regulatory network, because apparently, hot water and chilled water is not actually water anymore; it's an entirely separate category, which, therefore is unregulated. We've obviously got the strata laws being reviewed and certainly the next stage, the three-year limit for utility suppliers is in law now. Unfortunately, the exemption for electricity probably does undermine that. And also, that expiry at the first AGM, which is pretty important. So, I think we need to deal with all of those things alongside (and I think this is another thing that will help us deal with embedded networks more effectively)... Tranche two of the strata reforms is also going to be looking at prohibition of unfair contract terms. If you put those two things side-by-side, I think there's a lot that can be done together with those, too.

Jimmy  10:48

I'm going to the first AGM of an investment property that we've bought. And there's one obvious rort on the agenda, which is for storm drains. Apparently, that's a very popular way of gouging money out of owners, which should have been paid for by the developers. Can I stand up at the meeting and say "let us not approve these contracts until we've had a chance to review them?" 

John Minns  11:14

Look, you absolutely should be able to stand up at that meeting. And of course, we watch some of your property journeys, because they play out on this channel, don't they? The storm water thing firstly, is one that patently just looks ridiculous. In fact, the thing that certainly happened around that storm water one... We had industry approaches; we had people who stood to gain from this saying "this looks like a rort. This is undermining confidence. What can we do about it?" So if there's one thing that I am encouraged by is we've got sections of industry (and at least one major industry association has now indicated concerns and would like to deal with that alongside government). I think that's the starting point. But you know, there are issues with first AGMs and I assume this is a first AGM we're talking about? 

Jimmy  12:02

Yes, absolutely. 

John Minns  12:05

There are issues with first AGMs and there's several layers of that aren't there? Firstly, developers who've actually got all the information at the point of settlement, are not required to provide it until seven days, or potentially 14-days ahead of the AGM, which is in no way a sufficient time on a complex project for people to get to understand what's actually going on there. So I think that's something that needs to be resolved. And I think the second stage of the reforms will potentially need to go further than the first stage, in terms of a bit of protection there. Frankly, I'd like to see asset registers handed over at that point in time, as well. Because if we're going to arrive at an AGM and be presented with contracts, along with another 30,40,50 motions that need to be approved... And very often for many of us, when we buy into strata for the first time, we don't get it. This is a whole new world for us. We're now dealing with a multimillion dollar corporation, without necessarily having the competence level, and we're being asked in a two-or-three hour meeting to tick off a series of supposedly administrative issues. We've got to get past that.

Sue Williams  13:14

Is there a serious chance of having a two-stage initial AGM, so that stata committees can look at contracts before they're locked in?

John Minns  13:21

It is one of my strong recommendations that that happens. And interestingly, there is reasonable support from multiple stakeholder groups. We've discussed this, obviously, with the Owners Corporation Network. We've also discussed it with the industry and I think there is a belief there that transparency is a critical aspect of where we need to go in all aspects of property, but strata in particular, and that a two-stage AGM would empower people far better. But also, hopefully at that first AGM, we start to then get better decisions made around preventative maintenance plans; around capital works investment. All of those sorts of things, which when a poor decision is made, or poor budgets are supplied from a developer that simply don't enable the development to be looked after over time... That whole strata scheme can be set up for failure. At that point, we actually need people in power making good decisions, so that in three-to-five years time, they have got some element of cost control, but probably more importantly, their asset value has been protected, far better than it is at the moment, when a lot of this looks administrative and there's a lot of other things going on; when people have just moved in, trying to figure out what's what. They're already worried about the cost of utility supply and other things. I think we can do a much better job around first AGMs.

Jimmy  14:48

I'm wondering about the role of the strata manager in this? It was strata managers who first alerted me to the embedded networks issue and in fact, the example that was used was the stormwater drains. The strata manager who spoke to me, told me that the problem for strata managers is that a big part of their business is setting up strata schemes and they don't want to go to the first AGM and turn around and say "now these developers are ripping you off, so you shouldn't necessarily approve this contract." But then they are the one person, the one expert, the one professional, who has that knowledge. I mean, isn't it time that strata managers collectively, through the SCA, said "we will not support embedded networks if we think they are dishonest?"

John Minns  15:41

Yes, absolutely. That makes absolute sense. But can I just take it back a step further than that? I absolutely view some of these problems starting not at the first AGM or on settlement, but starting at point-of-sale. I don't know what your experience with your recent off-the-plan purchase was like, but I am rarely seeing, unless it's mandated, any form of detailed budget supplied at the point of sale, so that I, as a buyer, actually understand, maybe not what the final costs are going to be in two-or-three years time, but I certainly should understand the structure of the strata scheme; whether there's building management requirements around it. All of those things should actually be able to be explained. And one thing that is entirely possible with DA- level drawings, is that you can actually build a full completed and comprehensive budget, down to individual levies, if that building existed right now. At the moment, we don't require that, to potentially enforce remedies. But the truth is, I would like to see at that point, proper representation.  I'd like it to have a sting in the tail, for people who misrepresent it. And I'd also like to provide the opportunity for strata managers (who can feel like they're at the behest of a developer, I think)... "We'll pay you to set it up, but only if you give us nice cheap numbers here, so that our product looks better, so that we can sell it more easily."  I want to be able to empower a full (if necessary), independent assessment at that stage, which gets reviewed on settlement, that says 'lets' disclose this earlier. Let's be really, really clear that strata is an exciting opportunity. It is the future of residential property in New South Wales. But when you buy into it, feel competent, understand what it is that you're dealing with, so that you can make really great decisions. So it's not just a good decision, right now, when you're looking for an affordable property; it's a great decision in five-years time, 10-years, or 20 -years time, when you want to resell it again, because the property's in better condition.' And all of this can quite often start at the point-of-sale. 

Jimmy  17:47

I recall that there was a part of the law that came in in 2016 that said if the developer underestimated the levies (as they used to do), to get people to buy and then those levies blew out when reality struck, that the developer could have to pay the difference back to the owners, but that seems to have been watered down in the Act. It seemed like quite a good idea at the time, but I haven't heard of anybody ever having had to do that.

John Minns  18:20

There are a couple of jurisdictions in Australia that even have that point-of-sale representation and they're not well enforced, because they didn't build the remedies in at the same time, other than you can cancel your contract. To me, there's a couple of issues there. One is often that information is supplied too late; it's supplied seven days before the AGM and no-one gets a chance to deal with it. And by the time the issues emerge, we've often got a developer who's liquidated the company that was built and it's probably going to be hard to go back and get those remedies in place, anyway. I think we need to think practically about what this really means; how people can feel really good at their first AGM.  It was one of the big learnings I had, going way back to the old days, when I was in business. We sold a lot of properties off-the-plan. We also had a strata business and those two needed to work together. But we realised that the simplest and most important thing we could do is, if we could have the happiest possible buyers at the end of the first AGM, with a plan for the future, that was where we'd done our job effectively. And that involved some pretty important stakeholder management of a variety of different interests, but that was a bit of a turning point for us, in trying to understand what is fundamentally important to people who are going to live in these schemes, or own them for many years in the future, after the developer has left the room. And I think there is plenty of opportunity for us to do better in that space.

Sue Williams  19:51

Oh, that sounds great for the beginning of the building. And at the other end, when disputes do develop, is there any chance of having a fast-track dispute experiment, so disputes can be resolved or progressed a bit more efficiently and quickly? 

John Minns  20:05

I think you've got some ideas on this Sue and Jimmy, haven't you? Why don't we talk about that?

Jimmy  20:11

I mean, very basically (and I keep trotting this out and keep not hearing any response to it). Basically, I think you set up a panel of a strata manager, strata lawyer, and somebody who has served on a strata committee. You go in, having signed up to agree that you're actually going to follow the process. You go in, you have a half-hour hearing. So you've got 10-minutes for one side to state their case, 10-minutes for the other side to state theirs and 10 minutes for the panel to ask questions. And then they go away for half-an-hour, have a chat and come back and say "look, we think you've got a case," depending on how they vote, because there would be disagreements... But they can say "we think you've got a case and you can either go ahead and reach an agreement on this, or realise that if you take this to the tribunal, the side that we say has lost here, is going to be at a disadvantage."  There would be various technical issues in there and you'd have to get the agreement of the Attorney-General's office and all that. But it seems to me that people would rather have a quick... You know, they often say in my business 'a quick no is the second-best answer.' People would rather have a resolution sometimes and just get on with things, than have these often very minor issues that are based on a misunderstanding of their rights and responsibilities, drag on and on and on. And that thing of the immovable object and the irresistible force comes into play.

John Minns  21:50

There's obviously merits certainly in the outcomes, in the sort of proposal that you're talking about. I think one thing that's come out of the expert working groups that we've been running is they've identified, as you have, the issues with the whole complaints, mediation and enforcement process. And I don't think anyone disagrees that change in evolution is needed. Obviously, there is a requirement for mediation, but either side can decide they don't want to attend it and we've got far too many issues landing in NCAT, with often very long wait times and unfortunately, at the end of that, often limited ability to enforce the decisions. That process is not working.  When I mentioned earlier, one of our real priorities; regulatory practice reform, that's one of the key areas that we want to be looking at. How can we do better, not just by having extra mediators? I know there was a couple more supplied there, but how can we actually build a process that people can feel more confident with, but also, I think that we do need to do something to increase, or reinforce the regulator's powers, to try and prevent things having to go to NCAT and whether that's that type of panel, or otherwise.

Jimmy  23:06

What I'd love to see is an experiment... You know, just try it. Some people would be happy to go along with the experiment, just to see if it worked. I'm talking about the owners who are involved in a dispute. I mean, worst-case scenario, you could have a TV show, like a combination between Judge Judy and The Block. Hey, you laugh; if somebody gives me the money, I'll produce it! Everybody knows there's a problem. Everybody knows there's a breakdown between Fair Trading in the mediation situation and NCAT and their adjudication.  We know the system is deeply flawed; it's clearly not working. It's not benefiting anybody. But I'm not hearing any ideas that are better than mine. And I'm not saying my idea is perfect, or even good. But you know, it's a back of a cigarette packet idea, and I don't even smoke. So I'd love to hear somebody come out and say "hey, we're going to try something new." And that's what worries me, because everybody at your end  of the business seems to want things to be perfect, before you even try them. And I'm thinking well, why not just try them and build in an acceptance that it might not be perfect?

John Minns  24:24

Just additional observations to that... There's no question that critical to the success of all this, is also the professionalism and accountability of strata managing agents in this process, because I think sometimes things go to a dispute that probably could have been avoided. But I'm also well aware that there are times that a good strata manager's advice can be rejected by an owners corporation or an owners' committee and the problems in that case can escalate fairly quickly.

Jimmy  24:55

That comes down to trust and trusting the professionals and that's where it needs to go to the next stage, where they feel... Because people who are involved in a dispute, and the strata manager is giving them good advice, but they don't like it, will see that manager as taking sides. And that's where you need to pull it out and say "look, we're not just going to sit down and talk about this and hold hands and be nice to each other; we're actually going to try and reach a definitive resolution." And that's the step that seems to be missing for me, in this whole thing. We are rapidly running out of time. But I just wonder... We touched on this earlier; we've seen your colleague, your counterpart, David Chandler, the colossus of the Building Commission (in so many ways)... His whole thing has been to increase confidence in off-the-plan sales, so that people will buy into the whole apartment living thing, in every sense of that term. Do you feel that the problems that keep coming up (and we are as guilty as anyone, of highlighting the problems, but the problems do exist)... Do you think they're undermining his efforts to build confidence in the sector?

John Minns  26:17

Yes, of course they are. 

Jimmy  26:18

Okay!

John Minns  26:23

To go back to the point that I've made, this is where that aspect of off-the-plan-sales is absolutely vital to my work, just as it is to David Chandler's work. And in fact, in many cases, Property Services and strata actually starts before the Building Commissioner comes into the picture. And when we're talking about sales off-the-plan, with or without approved DAs, and a variety of other things... There's a bunch of things that can go wrong early, sometimes even before it gets into the world of the Building Commissioner. David and I have spoken on any number of occasions, and it is absolutely critical that the interconnections and crossovers in our work don't undermine each other, but more importantly, they complement and strengthen each other.

Sue Williams  27:11

Absolutely. And I guess there's been lots of efforts to inform apartment owners about their rights and responsibilities. I guess one of the issues... Sometimes, journalists don't really seem to understand strata life very much. Is there any plan to try and educate them in any way?

John Minns  27:27

Here I am, talking to two journalists, so I'll provide some gratuitous advice! I know I'm speaking to two very educated journalists. But look, my view remains that all stakeholders have a role to play here. Government needs to do a better job and this is one of the things we talked about, in providing accessible education and content. And I'd love to say Strata Hub provide the front door to that library, so that it's at least in one place and easier to find. I think our strata managing agents need to be focused on outcomes and customer experiences first and put tasks and operations as their second priority. But the reality is, strata is so important. We've got 1.4 million residents, already living in strata in New South Wales. To me, it makes sense that journalists would want to know more, to ask the tough questions of me and others and businesses in the sector, about what's required for the future. But certainly to say if strata is that important, what is it we need to know? Whose feet do we need to be holding to the fire? But also to make sure that, as you said, there is an awareness of the reality of strata, not just simply a soundbite that says 'this problem happened in this scheme today, therefore, we want to make a big noise about that.' It is bigger than that and it's more important than that.  We had a really great strata debt recovery roundtable last week, where we had financial counsellors there, we had the strata sector there, we had the Australian Bankers Association there, we had regulators there, and everyone was in one room, assuming that they were going to be throwing grenades at each other. But at the end of the day, I think everybody agrees that there's two issues, but one of the really important ones, of course is that strata schemes need to remain operational. Recalcitrant players who have no good excuse for not paying, other than the fact that they think this is the least important of their priorities; let's pay the mortgage first, and then let's deal with other things that are not contributing positively to the sector.  But there was also, very globally, this discussion from the strata sector, saying you know what, we can do a much better job of educating people and helping them along this journey of what's involved when costs do escalate. Particularly special levies that are being imposed at the moment around things like emerging or latent defects. Those type of things are a problem, because they're unbudgeted in many cases, but we can help people through that process and the people in genuine need, who are doing it tough and are too embarrassed to talk and being judged by their peers, we can also do a better job with that. I think this is about better understanding, working better together and ensuring that we do have functional, operational and liquid strata schemes, to do the job that they're there to do.

Jimmy  30:21

Absolutely. And again, it comes to the strata manager. I mean, if the strata manager had a set of fact sheets, or handbooks, or whatever, that he could hand to people who are in financial distress, so that they could go 'the government will help me out.' If you're over a certain age, they'll help you out with your strata fees. John, we have reached the absolute limit of our time here and it's been so great talking to you. I've been very encouraged by a lot of what you've had to say this morning. 

Sue Williams  30:51

Absolutely, me too.

John Minns  30:52

Thank you both for inviting me on and let's talk again in the future.

Jimmy  30:57

We shall. We'll catch up; we'll find out how many of the things we all want to have happen, have actually happened. 

Sue Williams  31:05

That sounded like a threat; that's awful! 

Jimmy  31:07

Only slightly. It's only when I put my Scottish accent on that it sounds threatening.

John Minns  31:11

I only half-read it that way. 

Jimmy  31:14

All right, John, thanks very much. That was really interesting. 

Sue Williams  31:25

It was.

Jimmy  31:26

 I don't know what kind of resources he has to achieve all he wants to achieve, because that's the other issue. You can make an appointment, but do you give them the money to do what they need to do? You look at David Chandler; when he came in, they passed laws immediately, to allow him to crack down on dodgy developers and all that stuff.

Sue Williams  31:48

And that's been so successful, you'd kind of think that they'd want to finish the job and give John the resources he needs, to make sure the strata side of it holds up as well. 

Jimmy  31:57

It was interesting to hear that he was a bit critical of strata managers, because a lot of people think that he's going to be in there, pushing their side of the barrow. It was interesting to hear that he is not 100% convinced that strata managers in New South Wales, or all strata managers, are doing the best job they could be doing.

Sue Williams  32:19

And surely, in his role he's going to be looking at everybody involved in strata and just trying to work out how they can work more closely together, for a better outcome.

Jimmy  32:29

And maybe, we will get our experimental fast track; I don't think so. 

Sue Williams  32:35

And a TV show. 

Jimmy  32:37

It's now looking like the TV show is the best bet. All right Sue, thanks very much. Thanks for taking time out of your peregrinations, to come and talk to us.

Sue Williams  32:47

My God, he swallowed a dictionary!

Jimmy  32:51

I just like occasionally to use big words.

Sue Williams  32:54

Oh, you used another word, which I didn't understand, when you were talking to John, about 'bailiwick.'

Jimmy  32:58

Bailiwick is my new word. It's a very old word. It means your area of concern, or authority, or control.

Sue Williams  33:09

It doesn't sound a very millennial word.

Jimmy  33:12

No. Well, it goes back to the old days, when you had bailiffs walking around the streets.

Sue Williams  33:18

Okay. You're showing your age here, Jimmy. 

Jimmy  33:20

That's not when I was alive. Anyway, yes.  In your peregrinations, you might come across a bailiwick. 

Sue Williams  33:27

Oh god! 

Jimmy  33:28

Alright. Thanks very much, Sue. We'll talk again soon. Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You'll find links to the stories and other references on our website flatchat.com.au. And if you haven't already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or your favourite pod-catcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a W, click on subscribe, and you'll get this podcast every week without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.