Jimmy 00:00
Are our apartments too small?
Sue 00:02
Or are they just designed a bit...
Jimmy 00:05
Badly. There's an interesting report we'll be discussing that's come out recently, about how the design of apartment buildings doesn't really suit the kind of people who want to live in apartments. And we're going to talk about building over railway lines and we'll have a look at something for our Great Escapes. I am with Sue . She's just sitting here, not saying anything.
Sue 00:32
Oh, sorry. I didn't realise that I should say anything. I thought you were just doing an intro!
Jimmy 00:40
I'm Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.
Sue 00:44
And I'm Sue Williams and I write about property for Domain, the Sydney Morning Herald, the Age and the AFR.
Jimmy 00:50
And this is the Flat Chat Wrap. There is a report in the Sydney Morning Herald this week about how the size of apartments doesn't suit-or the layout doesn't suit-a lot of the people who want to live in apartments.
Sue 01:19
That's right. It's not about size; that's not so important, but about what people do with that size.
Jimmy 01:26
Okay. So what is the problem, Sue?
Sue 01:31
Well, researchers from the UNSW interviewed loads of families and architects and developers and analysed the floor plans of 368 apartments around Sydney and they discovered that what families wanted wasn't what they're actually getting. Families wanted larger three-bedroom apartments, but they could make do with smaller ones, if they were designed a bit better. One of the big things (which is really interesting for me, because I don't have any kids), but one of the things that families really wanted in apartments was a space where they could dump all the kids school bags and jackets and things like that. And obviously, most apartments don't really have that anymore. Certainly not new apartments. We don't have the kind of corridors that you have in houses. And so with most apartments, you open the front door, and you're kind of in there immediately.
Jimmy 02:26
Yes.
Sue 02:27
We've got friends who live in an older style apartment, an old kind of art deco design and they have a little entrance lobby at the beginning, where they have hangers for their hats and coats and they can put their boots there. But most modern apartments, it's just all open plan. And we love open plan, but gosh, it must be hard for families.
Jimmy 02:52
Where do you hang your stuff? Where do you hang your coat? I mean, one of the things that occurs to me is that a lot of people these days want to take their shoes off when they come home. Some people even want visitors to take their shoes off. Where do you put your shoes? I mean, in our apartment, we actually turned out to have too many corridors or hallways in our apartment. But in our apartment, you come in and on one side, you've got a blank wall and with the other one, you've got the laundry and some cupboards. I suppose we could convert one of those cupboards to shoe space, if we were that bothered.
Sue 03:29
Somebody else in our building has converted one of those cupboards into a cat litter-tray holder. It's got a little cat flap in the door and then behind the door is a litter tray. So they've trained the cat to go in through the cat flap and then he goes into the litter tray. It's kind of quite interesting, because obviously, in an open plan apartment, it's quite hard to know where to put litter trays. It's okay if you've got a balcony, but otherwise you end up putting them in the bathroom. It's quite a compromise, in so many ways.
Jimmy 04:04
This apartment in which we sit, it originally had two hallways, from the lounge to the bedroom, and we found one of them we weren't using. It had a door in it and we were constantly just dropping stuff on the other side of the door. And this idea of somewhere to dump your stuff; we just did it kind of instinctively. There was an unused space; drop the stuff there. So we got builders in, or carpenters, or joiners and they put an extra cupboard in the kitchen and another cupboard on the other side in the hallway and bookshelves.
Sue 04:43
So that became a really usable space, although we still dump stuff...
Jimmy 04:46
We do, but then we get annoyed at ourselves when we need to get into the cupboard at the other side. It's about the use of space, but I think there's also the thing that you don't think about that when you go to look at an apartment, with a view to buying or renting it. You don't go "well, what will I use that space for?" I think that it's reasonable to say developers are not being considerate enough and not really thinking about the use of apartments and how people will live in them. They do tend to go cookie-cutter, because the fewer the changes that you make in the design, the cheaper it is to build the apartment block.
Sue 05:25
That's right. But at the moment, there are a lot more families moving into apartments. I mean, a lot of it is about affordability. You know, you can afford a three-bedroom apartment for the price of a one -and-a-half bedroom house. So a three-bedroom apartment will be much more comfortable generally. And often apartments, if they are well-designed and they're close to parks, and they have some great amenities around them, or they are close to public transport, shops or cafes, or most importantly for families, in a certain school zone. They can be great places to live and lots of families are recognising that now and moving in. I'm doing a story about this and all the experts say that Sydney has become the Australian leader for this, there are more families moving into apartments in Sydney than anywhere else. But Melbourne is quite quickly catching up as well. And the problem in Sydney is there aren't very many green-filled spaces for people to move to, to try and find something affordable. Sydney is a city where everybody kind of lives vertically much more now. It's kind of become a lot more acceptable for families to live in apartments and Melbourne is now slowly catching up, as well. But this is a trend that's going to happen more and more and it's not just affordability. I think as more families move into apartments... I mean, in our apartment building, where we've been for 20-years now (which is incredible), I think it started out that the one family living here and then they moved out quite soon after, after about a year. But now we have about five families in here.
Jimmy 06:46
We've seen people grow up from little kids. Now, they've got their own kids.
Sue 07:05
That's right, and they bring them around. Sometimes, apartment buildings have great facilities; they might have courtyards, they might have green space nearby, which is really easy for kids to go and play in. When I was a kid, we used to go and play in the streets behind our house. It used to be a bit dangerous, playing cricket and ballgames there.
Jimmy 07:26
I remember your place in Busselton and there was a green area in front... The two rows of houses and the two streets and there was a green space in between and a sign saying 'no ballgames.'
Sue 07:41
That's right. We weren't allowed to go out the front; we had to go on the streets at the back. But now with apartments, so many of them are very close to parks and open spaces and some of the big complexes have green spaces as part of the development. People can leave their kids to go and play really safely, without having to cross any roads.
Jimmy 08:04
I just wonder about the thinking, the planning, the economics of these things... Somebody in council, I think, who seemed to be the real key tilt point for planning; councils should say "if you want to build an apartment block here, you're going to have to have X number of studios, X number of one-beds, two-beds, and three-beds, if you want planning permission." That's how you change it.
Sue 08:34
Because we need that diversity of housing. Too many developers I think, are very used to developing buildings with just one-bedroom and in the past, it's been studios. That's very rare these days, but that's how they can maximise their profit. Three bedrooms are a lot more expensive, and there's a smaller audience for them. But a growing audience now; families more and more are looking at apartments as a great way to live.
Jimmy 09:05
Councils have in the past been guilty of saying "oh, we'll let you build an extra couple of floors, if you put some money into a park, two suburbs away," which makes no sense at all. What they should be saying is "we'll let you build a couple of extra floors, if you increase the variety of the design of the apartments, to accommodate what families need." These reports come out every week; somebody has come up with some other brilliant plan for changing stuff. It does change eventually and it gets changed by demand. Supply and demand changes things more than anything else, but as long as developers think "I will make more money if I stick to this formula," and they're allowed to do that, then this will not change.
Sue 09:56
It's interesting; that report that you're talking about, I read it too and they talked about a case study of a man and a woman; they've got two young children and they moved into a one-bedroom apartment. How on earth could they manage? But they did. They had a little sunroom and they converted that into a bedroom for the parents. The main bedroom they gave to the kids, so that they had room to play there, as well. And it was interesting what they did with the kitchen; the kitchen had a regular kitchen bench, like we were used to. We have kind of become used to having the island thing, with high stools, so the kids sit up there and eat their breakfast. They got rid of that and put in a little round table, so the family could all sit around and have meals together and sit and talk, just like they used to do in the old days. What a good idea that is really, because with kitchen benches, one person sits up there, or two people sit up there. It's rare that you all sit up there together and you're all facing the same way, so you can't actually communicate properly. I wonder if that would become another trend, going back to actual tables, where you sit around?
Jimmy 11:09
A table makes more sense in a lot of ways. Once your family gets bigger, you get a bigger table; if it gets smaller, you get a smaller table. It gives you room to entertain and stuff like that. But the kitchen island is the Neighbour's effect. People see it on TV and they say "that looks great." You've got all that cupboard space and worktop space, most of which you don't need. As they were saying in this article, that's where the kids do their homework and you know, sitting around the table, having a meal and talking (some people growing up, weren't allowed to talk during dinner).
Sue 11:53
He's talking about me. My father kind of felt it was rude for us to talk when we were eating food; we should be appreciating the food. My father is still like that today.
Jimmy 12:03
He said to me a couple of years ago "this sitting around talking over dinner, it's alright," he said, about 50-years too late. It will be interesting to see... Surely somebody out there is going "let's change the design of apartments," or maybe come up with a more flexible design. Because a lot of the walls internally in apartments, you could knock them down and they wouldn't make any difference to the structure whatsoever. So maybe that's the challenge; to come up with something that can be family-friendly, if you want it to be.
Sue 12:44
And a couple of developers... I did a story about them, about a year ago. They were designing very, very small spaces, but they were trying to design them so that they were really livable. And when they designed the apartments, they were including bespoke joinery in every one, so they had beds that folded up, and they had tables that folded up and down. Everything was so well thought out.
Jimmy 13:12
How long does it take you to get sick of having to slide the bed into the wall and fold down the table, just so you can sit and have a cup of tea?
Sue 13:21
But it's cheap. I mean, in such a small space, it becomes really affordable. It was so neatly done. It looks fantastic, so I think that that's a really good idea, as well.
Jimmy 13:33
We also tend to look at the ideals here. You know, the perfect scenario, when we know that there are students having to sleep on top of the sink and the washing machine in the laundry, because it's the only space available.
Sue 13:49
Or hot-bunking. That's horrendous!
Jimmy 13:55
The thing of "it'd be nice to have a hallway, where we can dump our school bags," that's not a universal experience. People are just trying to make do, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't aspire to something better. I'm just going to that say this place that we're in, we moved here because we needed two bedrooms and a study and that's exactly what the layout is.
Sue 14:20
We needed one bedroom and two studies, didn't we?
Jimmy 14:23
Yes, but nobody does that. The small bedroom became the second study. When we lifted the carpet to put timber down, we saw the marks on the floor and realised that what is the study was originally the third bedroom, and it went all the way out to the front balcony, and they must have realised that a three-bedroom apartment with the space that is then left for a lounge and dining room was just too small. So they were making smart decisions. Sometimes belatedly, because we found the mark on the floor next to the wall, that used to be the wall of the third bedroom. Somebody had written 'cut here' and put an arrow, so obviously, it wasn't planned to be that way from the beginning.
Sue 15:11
And before that we had another apartment and it wasn't quite big enough for us really, because we needed two studies, as we were both working from home. So we had a pull-down bed in the lounge. We've maybe mentioned that before?
Jimmy 15:24
I think we have, because you met somebody who said "you live in that building with the weird people who have the pull-down bed in the lounge."
Sue 15:32
That's right. That's when we thought we maybe better move on.
Jimmy 15:35
Time to upgrade. One of the key areas where they could be and should be building more, is over railway stations. I mean, somebody's written in the Herald today that you look at Newtown station; now there's an area very close to the city, very close to the university and basically, there's all these railway lines open. They don't need to be open air anymore. There's no smoke; they don't have to have the air blowing away the smoke. Well, unless they catch fire, but they can cover them over. And as I said recently, I wandered into what I thought was a railway station in Bondi Junction, and then realised I was in a Meriton apartment block and thought "I'm in the wrong place." But I wasn't; it's the same building. The ones that they're building in the city... Yes. They're going to be offices, probably, but even so, it shows you that the engineering skills are there. We should be doing a lot of it. I can't remember the first time I saw the plan for Central Station; the area to the south of the main station is just big, open space. You could build a whole town there. We have the technology, the ability to do this.
Sue 16:32
Around Martin Place?
Sue 17:04
Then you've got that big Atlassian project going in there. That's all going to be obviously, offices and stuff. But how good would it be to have some more homes around there as well? You know, all those people working there... Gosh, it'd be great to be able to cross the road and just go... You wouldnt need to catch the train, though. You could catch the train on weekends, to go to the country.
Jimmy 17:25
Exactly. When we come back, we're going to talk briefly about our Great Escape this week, which is my 'great escape 'when I went to Saigon. And somebody's got a new book out! You've got a new book out, Sue?
Sue 17:46
Yes, hooray!
Jimmy 17:48
It's getting a lot of coverage.
Sue 17:50
It is. It's quite fantastic. It's come out in Australia and New Zealand now and it's just coming out in England now.
Jimmy 17:57
Maybe they'll bring it out in Scotland, as well.
Sue 17:59
Oh, sorry! It comes out in Britain. Sorry, Jimmy! And it's on sale in the US as well.
Jimmy 18:05
Wow! It's very timely.
Sue 18:09
Yes, because it's a story of a little family, who earned the ire of the Kremlin. A British guy went over to Russia; he was working for one of the oligarchs there. He met a Russian woman, and they had a couple of kids. Everything was going great, but he had an awful lot of responsibility at this company. And suddenly, I think his boss started getting getting worried that a foreigner knew so much about their affairs. They started getting paranoid, then he started getting paranoid. They started spying on him and watching everything he did and kind of heavying him, really. In the end, he and his wife and the two kids fled. They caught a plane to Britain with only their hand luggage, no other luggage. They hid out in London for a few days and then caught a plane to the furthest point from Russia; Australia. They came here and travelled around Australia for six months, then went to the immigration authorities and asked for political asylum. And while the Australian immigration authorities admitted that they were in danger from the Russians, because they were receiving all these death threats, they refused to give them political asylum. They appealed and appealed and appealed. And finally, the immigration authorities said no, we're going to deport the guy and the two children back to Britain. And they felt really nervous; there's so many Russians in Britain. It would be really hard, and they were going to deport the woman back to Russia, to face certain death, because in the meantime, they'd also whistleblown on the boss as well, so they just kind of made it even worse. So then instead, they went into hiding on the Dampier Peninsula, you know, the far northwest coast of WA. A really remote spot around the Kimberleys and they hid out there for over three years on the beaches and working with Aboriginal communities. They just kind of survived on fish and crabs and anything they caught or grew. Incredible story; it's just absolutely amazing.
Jimmy 20:11
You've had a bit of publicity and people seem to be relating to it; I see it everywhere. What's it called?
Sue 20:19
Run for your life
Jimmy 20:20
Run for your life...
Sue 20:21
Russia is obviously waging the terrible war in Ukraine. And also the death of Navalny and the death of so many of the enemies of the Kremlin.
Jimmy 20:23
How many of them end up jumping out of windows?
Sue 20:36
Yes, very mysterious kind of deaths, or some of them, a blatant shooting in the head, that kind of thing. So I think the family are still probably in a lot of danger. They've now got political asylum, but in New Zealand; they couldn't get it in Australia. They are in a secret hideaway in New Zealand, and hopefully, they're going to be safe. Let's hope anyway.
Sue 20:44
I thought New Zealand was a secret hideaway.
Sue 21:01
But you know, they really want to come back and live in Australia. They love Australia, which is very sad. They're not allowed to come back yet, but hopefully, they will at some point, because only one of them, the son, was allowed to come back to do some publicity here, but he decided that he should stay with his family; they should do it as a family. I've been doing publicity here, but they've been doing some Zoom publicity. They were on The Project, and in newspapers and radio and magazines. So it's all happening.
Jimmy 21:32
It's a bit odd you know, that they spent all this time and all this effort and sacrificed so much to stay away from where anyone could find them. Because, you know, they basically had two fears. One that the next car to turn up at the gate of the place they were working would either be Russian spies, or Australian spies.
Sue 21:53
That's right. Or, a combination of both.
Jimmy 21:56
And now they're trying to get on TV and go "hey, look at us!"
Sue 21:59
But they're not telling anyone where they live.
Jimmy 22:01
No.
Sue 22:02
I mean, they've been hiding out for nine-years now. And as Nick said to me the other day, it's time to break free of all this fear and good on them. You know, they're really trying hard to rebuild their lives. I mean, I felt very privileged to be trusted to write it and it was an amazing journey. I mean, as you know, I kind of kept waking up in the middle of the night, having nightmares about things...
Jimmy 22:31
Like being thrown out of windows...
Sue 22:33
That and also, they were fighting crocodiles and sharks and all sorts of stuff. Snakes everywhere... Really scary stuff.
Jimmy 22:41
It is a fantastic book. I've had a little adventure, as well. I've been over in Saigon, finishing my book, because I am also a writer.
Sue 22:54
You finished your novel yesterday, didn't you?
Jimmy 22:55
Yes, it's called 'Twisted River.' The last one was set in Tasmania and this one is set in Kiama.
Sue 23:05
That's a bit of a change of pace.
Jimmy 23:07
It's funny you know, you're writing away and you think has this happened? Has anybody ever been killed off the blowhole in Kiama?
Sue 23:18
I would say yes.
Jimmy 23:20
A few years ago, an entire family of five people were swept off.
Sue 23:25
Oh my gosh!
Jimmy 23:26
And then about three years later, two members of the same family were there and they got swept off the rocks and killed, as well. It's dangerous; it's the biggest blowhole in the world.
Sue 23:42
Really? I didn't know that.
Jimmy 23:44
You thought it was me! I will be writing about this amazing little hotel I stayed in, in Saigon. They call it a boutique hotel; I think they're overstating it slightly. But it was half-a-block from the Opera House and cost me $50 a night.
Sue 24:05
So that's a Great Escape for this week.
Jimmy 24:08
It's a terrific escape. We've been talking away here for ages and there was me thinking we had nothing to talk about. Thanks Sue. I know you're very, very busy with all your publicity and then catching up with all the work that you've been missing, while you've been doing all your publicity.
Sue 24:27
And if you want to come along to a launch of the book, you can come along to the National Maritime Museum on May the 2nd. It's during the day; I think it's from 2pm to 3pm.
Jimmy 24:37
We'll put a link in the shownotes.
Sue 24:38
You have to book in advance but it's free.
Jimmy 24:40
Free entertainment; you get to see Sue in the flesh.
Sue 24:42
And also, the family will be on a big screen, talking from their secret hideaway in New Zealand. I'll be interviewing them.
Jimmy 24:51
Fantastic! Alright, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again quite soon.