Fake hosts - our scariest podcast ever

We’re back.  Or at least, one of us is for real, but the other one is fake, thanks to an Artificial Intelligence app.

This week I fed two articles from the Flat Chat website into an AI app called Jellypod. I chose the one about NSW Premier Chris Minns’ visit to the Netstrata offices and the other about the NSW Fair Trading minister’s announcement that the Productivity Commissioner has been tasked with discovering what would happen if insurance commissions were cancelled.

I asked the app to create a conversation between myself and co-podder Sue Williams based on the article and anything else it could find on the topics on the internet. I also gave it samples of our voices so it could create an audio file, and a short guide to our characters and different approaches to strata issues.

The result was frankly terrifying. Now, the cloned voices aren’t terribly close to ours, so that’s good, but the content of the conversation was scarily on point.  It is mostly factually correct and reads, as text, in a similar style to the way we speak and write.  

It was also strongly opinionated but completely fabricated an anecdote that neither of us can remember having ever said or written. It also had a problem saying “NSW” and “strata” which came out as “straaaaaata”. Have a listen and see what you think.

Meanwhile, where have we been, you ask? Our recent travels through Europe not only made podcasting hard, it left a mountain of work waiting for us when we returned so it was impossible to sit down and do the podcast for a few weeks.

We are a hand-knitted pod and the fact that it can be a logisitical and technical challenge was reconfirmed when I sat down to record this and my software made me sound like a Dalek with a heavy cold.  It’s all good now, I hope, and we’ll be back in your podcast feed just as soon as we have something new to talk about.

And rest assured, it really will be us – promise!

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Flat Chat is all about apartment living, especially in Australia.
Find us on Facebook and Twitter and the Flat Chat website.
Send comments and questions to mail@flatchat.com.au.
Register to ask and answer questions about apartment living anonymously on the website.
Recorded by Jimmy Thomson & Sue Williams; Transcribed by Otter.ai.
Find out more about Sue Williams and Jimmy Thomson on their websites.

Transcript

AI and us 2

Jimmy

Hello, we're back. And when I say we're back, I mean I'm back, or at least I'm the only one who's really back, which may make sense in a little moment or two. So apologies for the long break between podcasts.

As you may know, we were gallivanting around Europe, Poland, Holland, Germany, Norway, Scotland, Czech Republic. I think that's most of the places we went to. Yes, an hour, see the world while it's still there tour.

We tried to keep the podcast going. It got too difficult. And then when we came back, we were facing a mountain of work waiting for us when we got back.

So we got that out of the way. We're starting to put things together and we're having a rethink about the podcast. The exciting news is that we're going to be looking at doing video in the future.

And the other thing is we're not going to try and do a podcast absolutely every week because it's just too hard. We have about 300 listens a week, which is great, but not enough to get anyone to sponsor us unless somebody's listening and they really want to. And that means it's like a day out of our working week and we just can't afford to lose that because we're freelance journalists when push comes to shove.

So I just thought this episode, I do an interesting experiment. I was at a little seminar the other week, the other day, in fact, and an educator showed us the possibilities of artificial intelligence, like even the free stuff that you've got. If you have a Gmail account, then you have access to a thing called Notebook LM.

And what it can do is take a written document, a couple of written documents, and turn them into a conversation. And it has computer generated voices, which will do this. And you can even clone your own voice and have a conversation in your voice with the voice of someone else, neither of whom have actually spoken.

So I thought I'd do an experiment. And I fed in two stories that I wrote, one about the premier, New South Wales premier, Chris Minns, going to net strata for a kind of meet and greet and back slapping and booster for them. And the close coincidence of that happening on the same week that the fair trading minister, Aniluk Chandivong, announced an inquiry into the possibility of not having insurance commissions paid to strata managers and other commissions and other things like that.

So I fed this into the computer, I got it to copy my voice and Sue's voice and said, go ahead, create an interview based on these two stories. Plus, and there was a deep search button, it allowed the computer to search for anything else relevant to this. So off it went and came back with something that I am going to play you in a moment.

I'm the real Jimmy Thomson, and this is the Flat Chat Wrap. 

Jimmy

So I thought, first of all, just for comparison's sake, you'll hear our normal voices from a previous podcast, and then we'll dive straight into the conversation that was created by the computer. Now, before we go any further, I have to say, I do not necessarily endorse any of the claims that this podcast, this fake podcast is making this conversation.

And if you think I'm being a little bit cautious, wait till you hear it. So first of all, here are our normal voices, then we'll go into that fake podcast. 

[Original sample audio]

Jimmy

Now other people think that seeing people's laundry on their balconies is a horrendous thing.

And it's like downtown Beirut, as one correspondent described it a few years ago.

Sue

Well, I know downtown Beirut quite well, actually, because I spent quite a lot of time there. And parts of downtown Beirut are really nice.

Jimmy

Yes.

Sue

And I mean, I think hanging out with laundry is the least of their problems, really, when you see all the walls have been pockmarked by bullets over the years.

Jimmy

Well, that's true.

[The following is the AI generated conversation – the app wrote the script then attempted to deliver it in our cloned voices]

Fake Jimmy

All right, let's get stuck straight into it. So Sue, did you see that now infamous LinkedIn shot of Premier Chris Minns grinning with the Netstrata crew? I mean, tin-eared might actually be a polite way to describe it.

The guy’s rocking up for a feel-good photo at Netstrata's, uh, investigation by Fair Trading, mind you. I don't know if it's a PR misstep or just a total disregard for the Strata community. But honestly, what was the Premier thinking?

Fake Sue

I did see it. And you're right. What timing.

It's one thing for a Premier to support local businesses in his electorate. But Netstrata has been at the centre of serious controversy. And this all took place right before an inquiry into insurance commissions was announced.

The way it came across, it just felt so out of touch with what so many apartment owners are feeling right now.

Fake Jimmy

Yeah. I mean, this isn't just some local poly visiting a sausage sizzle. It's the Premier.

You'd think the optics might have crossed someone's mind, especially since, look, we now know Fair Trading still sifting through 40-odd complaints about Netstrata. It leaves a sour taste, doesn't it? You get this bizarre sense of, is this really the big show of government concern we're supposed to believe in?

If I were another Strata manager or just some poor owner wondering why their insurance keeps going up, I reckon I'd feel pretty ticked off or just ignored.

Fake Sue

Well, and to play devil's advocate, Netstrata went heavy on the self-congratulation afterward. Their LinkedIn post read almost like, we're leading the sector and even the Premier likes us. And if you're someone in a smaller firm that's been grilled for doing much less, it's going to feel a bit like double standards.

Do you think this is just naivety from the Premier's or something more?

Fake Jimmy

Could just be a stuff up from some advisor who wasn't paying attention. Or maybe cynically, you could see it as a calculated move like, hey, if we stand by the big players, maybe it'll all blow over. But to most owners, it reads as tone deaf at best.

At worst, it's a classic case of the establishment looking after their own, right?

Fake Sue

Yes. And I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that Netstrata saw it as a win and shouted about it online. But I do wonder what message this sends to people who've been hoping for government reform in Strata.

If scrutiny means so little, why should people believe things will change?

Fake Jimmy

Exactly. And it's not as if Netstrata's woes are a secret. Remember the ABC Four Corners Strata Trap episode last year?

That was must watch TV in my house, which probably says too much about my social life. But anyway, Netstrata got absolutely slammed for allegedly hiding insurance commissions behind so-called service fees. Their CEO, Stephen Brell, was on TV because he was the SCA's president.

And well, he copped it hard. I almost felt sorry for him until I remembered the scale of the problem.

Fake Sue

No, I remember that. And it wasn't just a gotcha. There were very real questions about vertical integration.

You had these bigger Strata companies not only managing the buildings, but owning the legal firms, the debt collectors, the insurance brokers, the lot really. And the argument, I guess, is, is this ever in the owner's best interests? Or does it just make everything murkier and easier to mask these commissions as something else?

It's such a concern for transparency. No one's really certain what they're paying for.

Fake Jimmy

No, and let's not forget, the government saw this and called for the McGrath-Nicoll inquiry. Their report flagged potentially dodgy stuff, possible breaches of Strata law or dodgy practices at the very least. Now, Netstrata, of course, pushed back, said they were contesting most of it, but also claimed they'd already started fixing things.

But what bugs me is that Netstrata still seems to have the government's ear, while two much smaller firms, admittedly for worse offences, got struck off entirely.

Fake Sue

That's what makes it so galling for ordinary people, doesn't it? You've got these sweeping reforms that the government's pushing saying, all right, we'll clean up conflicts of interest, crack down on dodgy deals with developers. But there still seems to be this sense that if you're big enough, you get the benefit of the doubt, while the little players just get put through the wringer.

The inconsistencies are, frankly, baffling.

Fake Jimmy

Or just predictable, maybe. The thing is, Netstrata wasn't the only one with their hands in multiple biscuit tins. Plenty of firms were pushing these boundaries, but Netstrata got the cameras and the headlines.

And now, whatever you think of the fairness of it, the sector's under this big cloud, and owners are the ones stuck in limbo, just waiting to see which set of rules will apply next.

Fake Sue

So then, almost out of nowhere, we get this new government inquiry announced. The Fair Trading Minister, Chanthi Vong, asks the Productivity and Equality Commissioner to review the whole system of insurance commissions and conflicted payments in Strata. I think the feeling is, let's get ahead of the next scandal.

But at the same time, it's long overdue, isn't it, Jimmy?

Fake Jimmy

It is overdue. Yeah. I mean, everyone's known these commission structures were dodgy for years, up to 20% or more, built into the premiums that owners have to pay.

The inquiry is very broad, looking at whether banning these kickbacks could fix trust in the sector, or actually just drive up fees elsewhere. Because remember, insurance is mandatory for every single one of the 87,000 Stratas in NSO. And right now, managers just have to declare what they pocket.

But that's not exactly reassuring for owners, is it?

Fake Sue

No. And the arguments from the Strata Community Association have been quite cautious. They say, great, let's examine this.

We want more transparency, but proceed carefully. There's concern that a blunt ban might end up with smaller firms collapsing, insurance costs staying put, or even rising, and less competition, which ultimately hurts owners. I've had conversations with residents who worry that whatever the outcome, they'll just end up paying more and still not understanding where the money goes.

Fake Jimmy

And that's the rub, isn't it? If you ban commissions overnight, managers might just go, right, here's a new line item for admin fees, or just squeeze owners some other way. It's a classic case of unintended consequences.

Fix one dodgy practice, and three more spring up. But on the other hand, you've got to start somewhere. Otherwise, you just keep rewarding opacity and eroding consumer trust.

If there's no trust, the system crumbles one committee at a time.

Fake Sue

Absolutely. And let's not forget, 1.2 million people now live in Strata and nest idols. The stakes are getting higher all the time.

The government says the inquiry will be very consultative. Lots of submissions from owners and stakeholders, which is good. But I wonder, Jimmy, will all this scrutiny really lead to better value for money and higher quality services?

Or are we just shuffling the deck chairs while managers look for creative loopholes?

Fake Jimmy

I wish I could be optimistic. Maybe this is the start of something better, a bright new dawn, as they keep promising. Or more likely, we'll see a round of policy tweaks, a few winners, a lot of losers and a booming market for creative accountants.

Either way, we'll be keeping a close eye on it. That's all for this week. Sue, always a pleasure having you here to pull me back when I get too grumpy.

Fake Sue

Well, someone has to keep you honest, Jimmy. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. We'll keep watching how these inquiries play out and what it all really means for Strata owners.

See you next time.

Fake Jimmy

Take care, Sue. Cheers, everyone. And don't forget to send in your questions for the next episode.

Bye now.

[End of AI conversation]

Jimmy

Okay, the reassuring thing about that is that our voices aren't that close. Close-ish, if you'd never heard us speak before, you could possibly believe that those were our voices. But no, they're different.

They do sound different. Do they sound fake? I'm not sure.

It's very hard for us to tell. The other thing is that there were pieces of that conversation which neither of us have either written or said. That little story about the ceremonial opening of a bin area, I've no idea where that came from.

Sue has never said that stuff in her life. She's never written that stuff. It's been picked up from somewhere on the internet by the artificial intelligence and injected into the story.

It sounds totally convincing, but it's never been said. So that is maybe the future of podcasting. It's not there yet, and I kind of hope it never gets there.

But when you get to the point where you can take two news stories, feed them into a computer, and say, okay, turn this into a conversation and here are the voices of the people that I would like you to have in this conversation. It really is quite a scary prospect, as if living in Strata wasn't scary enough. Okay, that's enough from me.

The next time you hear us, you might actually see us too. We're back on track. The Flat Chat Wrap rides again, and thank you for listening, if you have been.

Bye. Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You'll find links to the stories and other references on our website, flatchat.com.au. And if you haven't already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcatcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a W, click on subscribe, and you'll get this podcast every week without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.

 Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai.