Scaling With People
Tired of spinning your startup wheels but never gaining traction? Buckle up, founders and CEOs, because this podcast is your rocket fuel to profitability! Every week, we ignite explosive conversations with bold-faced founders, brainy experts, and even a few out-of-this-world vendors. Get ready to crack the code on growth, master employee engagement, and blast through your scaling goals. We’re talking real-world strategies, actionable tips, and perspectives that’ll make your business do a cosmic dance. So, strap in and prepare for lift-off!
Scaling With People
Mastering Modern Growth: Leveraging AI, Data-Driven Strategies, and Talent Optimization with Akash
Unlock the secrets of modern growth marketing with insights from Akash, a leading growth and transformation consultant, in our latest episode. Wondering how AI can turbocharge your marketing strategies while ensuring every dollar you spend adds value to your bottom line? Look no further. Akash shares invaluable wisdom on harnessing data-driven strategies and emphasizes the importance of CEOs having a baseline understanding of marketing to steer their companies towards sustained success. You'll uncover the common pitfalls to avoid and understand why continuous optimization is the keystone of effective marketing.
Explore the transformative power of AI tools like never before. Akash and I dive into specific technologies such as Jasper AI for seamless content creation and Dream Studio for innovative image development. Imagine boosting your productivity while enhancing creativity simultaneously—AI makes it possible. From utilizing ChatGPT's Omni version for diverse business tasks to staying ahead in the ever-evolving AI landscape with expert consultation, this episode is a treasure trove of actionable insights. The future of marketing is here, and it's powered by AI.
Finally, we tackle the intricate challenges of talent strategy and AI implementation, especially pertinent for startups with budget constraints. Akash offers practical advice on leveraging consultants and fractional services to gain strategic advantage without the need for full-time hires. Learn how to inspire a culture of adaptability in your team, empowering them to embrace AI and other groundbreaking technologies. Through real-world examples and personal experiences, we discuss how to effectively integrate these tools to boost team productivity and drive long-term success. Don't miss this episode packed with strategies to navigate the ever-changing marketing landscape.
Welcome everyone to today's Scaling with People podcast. I'm Gwenevere Curry, founder and CEO of Guide to HR. Today, we're going to be talking about growth marketing strategy as well as the disruption that AI is happening in the marketing space, and I'm super excited to have Akash on the call with me today. Akash, welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:Thanks, gwenevere. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm a growth and transformation consultant and fractional leader. What that means is I help companies with their performance marketing, whether that's DTC, e-commerce or outside those categories as well. We assess, plan and execute across all the growth marketing needs and help them scale up. The other pieces that we do is we help them prepare for the future, and that's where AI and transformation comes in. We're always looking ahead. As marketers, we have to be aware of what's happening, but also as founders and CEOs, we're looking ahead as well and planning the next year out. So it's important that we understand where we need to transform.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and so, with every kind of strategy that a business has, it's constantly needing to be reevaluated and restructured as the business grows, or maybe not. Hopefully it is. So, you know, knowing that our target audience is those startup founders, and maybe founders who are maybe farther along in their startup journey, maybe series D or E or about to go IPO. What are some of the data-driven growth marketing strategies that you've seen that have been kind of some key things that have helped your clients or other CEOs that you've spoken with in regard in throughout your career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know it's. It's really about driving incremental revenue right and more value to the bottom line. So those are the two, two end goals that we that I take a look at. You know, growth marketing has been around for a really long time. It's kind of a new name within marketing, but really one of the key roles of marketing has always been growth, you know, and and that has to be at the forefront of what marketing does it's got to persuade customers and drive growth for the company.
Speaker 2:So you know, what's changed over the last 10 years has really been the digital technologies that we engage in and therefore create data and therefore create new targeting opportunities and have platforms and etc. That we can you, we can advance our marketing strategies with. So my emphasis really for CEOs and founders is really to take a look at growth marketing holistically, take a look at how it's building incremental revenue and how it's driving value to the bottom line, and out of that is born really smart strategies and tactics. And you have to go soup to nuts in order to understand those strategies and tactics, but a CEO needs to understand it at a high level and start to orchestrate those right levers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, you kind of have to understand. We had another guest a couple of podcasts ago who said the one thing I would recommend a CEO do is have a baseline understanding of all the functions that you are going to eventually be managing. That helps you run your business. So that baseline understanding of marketing, so when you have conversations with people you can have some knowledge about what they're saying and also directing them. So what do you see some of your clients doing that Like if I could have just gotten in front of you. X amount of clients doing that like Ooh, if I could just gotten in front of you X amount of time months, days, weeks, years, even maybe where?
Speaker 1:I could have stopped you from doing that and not like what are some of the common mistakes or missteps that you're seeing, that you're coming in and course correcting and or saying stop doing that, we're going to do something else completely different.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, yeah well, there's plenty. I think what's great about this topic is like it's, you know, for CEOs to assess growth marketing, because it's a complex space and it moves really quickly. Given technology, it can be hard to assess. You know, I meet a lot of CEOs who are like I'm not sure what questions to ask. I'm not sure. Frankly, some CEOs will say very honestly, like I don't sure what questions to ask. I'm not sure. Frankly. Some CEOs will say very honestly, like I don't know what my growth marketer is saying. You know, there's a lot of data, there's a lot of reporting and I'm not sure what story they're trying to tell. And so I think what it?
Speaker 2:It sounds very simplistic but it's hard to do in this space because of the complexity. But you have to bubble it up to what is growth marketing doing for the business, right, and that comes back to incremental revenue and bottom line value. Once you understand that, what role it plays in driving that, then it starts to get really easy to start to ask those different questions. So you can ask questions specific to growth marketing around like, well, how much revenue did we drive through growth marketing last year and what was the ROI? That's a great question to ask.
Speaker 2:And then, when you see, okay, some things are going well, some things might need opportunity, the next question to ask is where do we see further opportunity to optimize? And there's always optimization. In fact, most of the technology today is optimizing constantly, but it needs a human to direct it to a new optimization opportunity. Right, it can't fully do it on its own. So that's where the human comes in on your team and they say, okay, great, here's something else that we could do. So that's another question CEOs can ask.
Speaker 2:And I think the third thing is how are we preparing for the future? There's many times where you overinvest in a tactic or two or strategy or two, and a year or two into your growth trajectory, you find that, oh, it's not growing anymore, right? So that's a big watch out. You have to push, you know the team to say what are we? How are we planning for the long term? What if this doesn't work in a year? What else are we testing and trying so that we make sure that we're keeping this diversified and we're and we're learning along the way. So those are the three things I would ask.
Speaker 1:Love that, and so, talking about the future and growth and gave a little snippet, we're going to be talking about AI and transformation. What have you seen happening inside of the marketing space? That is happening that is helpful to business owners growing their business from an AI perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, this is such a great time to be in marketing.
Speaker 2:It's both scary and good, right, you know it's scary in the sense of like we don't really know what's going to happen, but we also know that the tools that are there today should increase productivity and make us a little bit smarter about the marketing return that we're seeing.
Speaker 2:So I think where CEOs can push teams is to ask questions like how are we going to leverage AI to make us more productive? How are we going to reduce our need to just hire more and more people and maybe leverage AI to create content or to maybe make a process more efficient, or to do measurement and make it automated? So these are things that you have to consider, and it's a great time to be a startup founder because you can now say AI is going to supercharge a couple of parts of my business within marketing, and I know maybe it's not available today in perfect form, but I know in the future this is really going to help me with productivity, efficiency and process improvement, and it absolutely will. It's just about when those capabilities come to market and pressing your team to make sure they implement them. You can't sit around and say I'm going to put my head in the sand and let AI flow over. You have to wake up and lean into it and then take advantage of it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean, you and I were just talking before we started recording about the different kinds of AI tools out there within, like building your brand presence on LinkedIn, and how you can use that using their brain on strategy, on creative things, creative ways of doing thinking about things differently, right? So, yeah, get those tactical admin things off everyone's plate and let them really thrive in their perspective and brainpower that they're bringing to the table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and there's good tools like. I'll give some specific examples. You know if founders are listening, like where to point some of their teams. So Jasper AI is a great tool. It's more of the content creation side.
Speaker 1:So if you're writing and when you say content, is that written video pictures? Yes, mainly written. Yeah, mainly written.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so if you're doing blogs or you're writing emails or really any kind of content, even advertising content that you might need for an ad, it's a great tool to start to leverage right. And then, on the image development side, there's one called Dream Studio which is actually in beta. Jasper is a little bit further along in their development. These are great tools. So what I've heard from a client who uses Instagram and leverages Dream Studio and other capabilities they've increased their you know, image productivity right. So creating a lot of like Instagram content and videos through Canva and Dream Studio, and that's just really enabled them to say, okay, I used to only be able to do three posts a week. Now I'm able to do, you know, 10 if I really want to.
Speaker 2:That's a little bit too much, right? About five to seven is a good amount for that brand and it's not taking as much time. It's taking less time. I get the copy and the imagery straight from AI. It's not perfect, so you usually have that human, as you said, edit it, make sure it's perfect and then go ahead and do it, but it reduces a lot of time because it's getting you about 80% of the way there. So those are some tools that they definitely should check out, and the landscape's changing a lot, so it's always great this isn't a plug for consulting at all, but it's always great to talk to someone outside the industry right and say, okay, what tools should my team be looking into? Because now there's a lot of people looking into this space and they're very well informed and they can help you, right, and you're just trying to accelerate output but also accelerate revenue.
Speaker 1:So what, speaking of this cause I'm a tech girl, I love I get on this conversation so much what is your favorite tool that you use, either just because it's your favorite tool or in support of your clients and what you do for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one of the best tools right now is chat GPT for that Omni and they actually have within that, if you, if you know, there's a chat GPT store as well, which has apps similar to the Apple App Store. So what I do is I have a Canva app in there, I have a dream studio app in there, I have a bunch of different apps that have applied of analytics so specific for performance media analytics app in there, and that's what I use a lot. So every day I have that open, I pick the different app I want to use and it just helps me do things. So, for example, I'll take disparate parts of performance media data. I put it in there yesterday and I said can you just combine this and create a simple table that has these five metrics you know, cpa, roas, media spend I forget what the other ones were but and then just create a table, and it did so. Similarly, I use Canva, you know, for any kind of like image creation that I need or any kind of presentation image creation that I need. It kind of presentation image creation that I need. It quickly creates that just right within ChatGPT Omni.
Speaker 2:And then the last thing is Omni is very powerful. It's gotten even more powerful than 3.0. And so you just pay a little bit extra for it and what it does is it can answer really any question. So if you're doing research on a we were doing research on a customer the other day and we just asked them a couple of questions, like we have this customer profile that we've actually done some research on what type of marketing do you think is going to resonate? And it came back with some pretty good responses. Right, again, it wasn't 100% correct, but it got us 80% of the way there and then we took that and started to kind of model out what else we wanted to test with that customer base. So again, those are three really easy examples, and within that app store there's about, I think, 3000 now different apps that you can leverage.
Speaker 1:And growing every second of the day, probably two more since we started this recording. Oh my gosh, yeah, I'm sure that number is like ridiculously off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I read it two weeks ago, so it's done like ridiculously off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I read it two weeks ago, so it's done. Yeah, exactly, oh, that's so funny. So, being a numbers goal that I am in systems to that. We talked briefly about data driven growth market, and so you had shared, like you know, some of some of the people that you interact with, though I don't even know what questions to ask and when I get all this data, I don't even know what this means or what the story is being told. So what are you know, if you're you're kind of like a novice to owning and running a business, you have someone on the marketing growth side or just like general go to market. What are some of the key data points that a founder should be looking at or be asking to see consistently, and what? How do they actually interpret the data to say we're on the right path or not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. Yeah, you know, and part of this will depend, you know, every business is different B2B, b2c. You have long buying cycles. You have, you know, I bought some tissue paper. You know buying cycles which is more immediate gratification. So you have all these different factors that are at play, but primarily, what you're trying to do is under your business objectives, which might be like, let's say, drive medium size accounts in a B2B environment. You know five acts over the next, whatever years, right? So what you're then doing in that case is you're saying what quality of leads are we generating, at what cost and how are they converting? Right, very simplistically, that's what you're asking yourself and what is the cost? You know. And then, underneath that, you're saying what is the cost to generate the content to develop the leads, and then what is the cost to convert those once they come into the cycle? So that's one way to look at like a traditional B2B business.
Speaker 2:On the B2C side, specifically within e-commerce, what you're looking for, depending on the buying cycle, is you're looking at very similar areas. You're saying what am I spending to drive traffic and revenue into my commerce and store? Now, this can be split a lot of times in this day and age between a distributor networks, a third party like Amazon and also your own sort of DTC storefront, right? So you're trying to look at that in combination, right, you look at them in isolation because they have different P&Ls, but you look at them in combination to to see what's more, what's happening in a total view. Then you're saying, okay, what's the ROAS on that and how many repeat purchases can I get out of those customers once they're in the ecosystem? So then you get out of the paid media on that last question and you start to say, okay, within my ecosystem, as I email or SMS or retarget them, what am I getting from that return? So, very simply, you're asking those questions and you're looking for those specific metrics.
Speaker 2:If you can get to that point on a month-over-month basis and then also look longitudinally back about a year or two so you're following your seasonal cycles and you're understanding the different trends that are happening channel by channel then you're really doing a nice diagnostic across your business and you're being very data-driven because you're looking at those metrics and have your growth marketing team help you understand some of these metrics as well. If you're confused at all, it takes a short education curve. I found many CEOs quickly come up the curve and then they understand these metrics and that's all they're looking for. They're looking for the explanation around how's it going? What did we see last year that we're not seeing this year? How's it going what you know did. What did we see last year that we're not seeing this year? That's why you do the two-year longitudinal. What's the seasonality coming up, let's say for September back to school, or anything like that that you're aware of within your business cycle, and then you just kind of analyze that you know as a team.
Speaker 1:That's great feedback. Now I got a novice junior question here for you as a founder myself. Back Now I got a novice junior question here for you as a founder myself. I wonder sometimes is there ways where you're doing things that are marketing-ish type strategies, where it's really hard to get the ROI, and should I continue to do this? Am I getting anything out of this? How do I start figuring out what that ROI looks like? So, for example, I have this podcast. We have people listening. Maybe they'll become a client of mine or yours, maybe not, I don't know. And then, like you know, you have your LinkedIn and your other social media and then you got your referrals and your network and all these different places. Like, is there any like tip or trick in regards to figuring out other than, like you know, I had this one client come to me like hey can, how did you hear about me? And he goes I don't know, and I was like well, that was not helpful.
Speaker 2:Right Like.
Speaker 1:so at that point any of those channels or even something else I didn't even list Right. So, like, when it comes to these all these ways of getting your brand out there that are hard to find an ROI, is there some kind of trick to figure out if it's working or not? Or is it just kind of like you'll keep doing it if you feel like that's something you enjoy and it doesn't cost a lot of money, or you know, I don't even know how to pose that question the right way, but hopefully you got what.
Speaker 2:I was asking. No, it's a great, it's a fantastic question because it goes into that B2B example that I gave you. So, for example, imagine you're trying to drive big accounts right In B2B. You're trying to drive these business-to-business relationships, larger size accounts. You have some thought leadership in there. You have some content creation, which is kind of what this podcast is right, and you have other content that you're generating across other channels, what this podcast is right, and you have other content that you're generating across other channels. So imagine, if you will in your imagination very quickly, that you started to itemize what you're spending and what's coming back for each different channel.
Speaker 2:There's a key nuance once we get through this in a second. So you're just looking at that at face value, like, okay, you know, they heard about me through the podcast, they heard about me through LinkedIn. Let's take the person who can't remember out of it. That's maybe an anomaly, you know, versus like that's, that's not the norm, right, that's an exception. So you're looking at the bulk of people. Most people are going to remember and know, right, and so that that's how you identify it. You probably can identify it frankly through the metrics as well. Right, people click in, send you an email, then you're like great, you know attribution back to it. So that's all you're doing. You have this list Now.
Speaker 2:The nuance of it is that, which is the fun part, which is the art of it, is two things work together. I saw you on LinkedIn and then I listened to your podcast and then I emailed you. Okay, well, great, you know. So you get that attribution information in too. You say, okay, well, this is what this person did. We know that that kind of worked and if it's like 50 people do that, you're like those things are pretty good. Maybe we should continue to do it.
Speaker 2:Now, you know I talked about the specific things you're looking at, like ROI how much you're spending, what's the return. So if you think about it, you're asking. In your specific case, you're going to be asking yourself line by line. You have to be diligent and say how much am I spending on this? You know whether it's, you know, hard dollars, you know paying someone to edit, etc. Or whether it's your own time. You know this is an hour that I could be spent like delivering work or creating content or doing something else, right? So those are things that you have to evaluate as well within it as you kind of itemize everything out, so hopefully that helps.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That was great Cause I know some, some of my CEOs, they they have conversations and they're just like very adamant about what's the ROI and I feel like in some scenarios with marketing, kind of like people operations, there's a little bit of like you said, there's an art to it, right, not everything is an easy one-to-one equals two calculation and there is an art to it. You know you're talking about human nature and how they're interpreting data, how they're interacting with your data and how that actually translates into cashing your bank account. Just like with the people operations, you're interpreting people's perspectives and are they engaged? Are they not? Are they happy? Do I need to spend money somewhere else? So definitely there's a little bit of a mirror here on the marketing with people operations side of the house.
Speaker 2:So yeah, there's that context but that's why, like you know, as much as we're scared of ai taking over everything, you know they're we're going to still exist, because ai has a difficulty right now understanding nuance right and connecting some of these dots right, and.
Speaker 2:But we can, we. That's where, that's where we come in, you know, and we know like. You know, like you'll be able to assess like, okay, how, how are all these things working together? You know what I mean and so that's that's, that's the art part of it and that's really important. And also, the last thing I'll say on that is that you're giving things a little bit of time too, which can be very, which can be a big point of tension, right?
Speaker 2:So, for example, you have this list, let's say you get some early data on this list of, like, one lead came in here, five leads came in here. Sometimes you know you want to be quick, to pull the trigger and say, well, the five lead, one is clearly the answer. But sometimes you have to allow this natural tension to say, maybe we need to hold on, we don't have enough information to make a decision yet, right? And that's where you know, I think ceos and founders, they just need to understand that, um, sometimes you have to give it more time to really sort of bake in and really for the data to really flow in so you do understand it.
Speaker 2:Um, and that can be hard, right, you know, and so you want to spend at the right amount in terms of energy and media dollars, etc. So that you're not, you know, in this rush to kind of find the answer, because it could take a couple months for things to really matriculate. This is again depending on lead time for buying cycles, right? Like you don't buy insurance every day, right, that's a. That's a long link cycle. You don't buy cars every day, right, that's a long link cycle. You don't buy cars every day. So that could take a while for you to understand that.
Speaker 1:That's a great call and I think that definitely is something to take to heart and note. It is certainly something I see a lot of founders struggle with, because they need to be agile, they need to move quickly, they need to make decisions quickly because they only have so much money in the bank account before they have to go out and go fundraising. And if they're going to go fundraise they need to have the story of the growth. So that is a tricky balance of making sure you give it enough time to bake, where I always say like you planted the seed, the root needs to take. Like it takes. Like you know, you plant a seed. I just planted some fruit trees and, like I needed to, it's going to take a couple years before I actually see fruit that I can eat. So like I need to be patient, but I could just go to the store and buy my fruit and have it immediately right.
Speaker 1:So a combination of both. So I appreciate that context. As we wrap things up, is there any other like last minute tips, tricks, tools, thoughts, different viewpoints in regards to growth, marketing or the digital transformation that's happening with Aenea that you want to share with?
Speaker 2:our listeners today. One topic we may want to talk about a little bit is scaling up talent, right, and how do you do that Talent? And I would probably say capabilities too, because the capabilities come with the talent. So I don't know what's your perspective. I mean, it's hard to scale up talent, right. You know, I? I always say you're sort of riding the bike while you're building it, right, and that's this another healthy tension that you have. You're trying to put enough into place that you can drive the business forward, but you're also trying to look out, for you know, what are we missing? What are we going to need a year from now? What do we need today? And you're prioritizing and assessing those things as you go forward. And I think you know being in a lot of high growth environments that's what I've seen is you're consistently balancing short term versus long term and just making those calls and continually kind of you know processing that with the CEO.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think you know when you're talking about talent and the talent strategy within marketing or with any area within the business, especially a startup, you only have so much money. You're competing against other companies that can pay more. Maybe you have equity, but you're a startup, so that's risky. Is the equity going to ever be worth anything? Who knows right? And so it does take a special human being to jump into that space first of all and thrive and love it.
Speaker 1:I'm one of those people that, just like I, geek out on it and then being able to recognize like, yeah, okay, I can't afford someone with 10 years experience, but I can't afford, from a mistake, lack of experience, lack of like, not getting the right direction in place in my business for someone who just came out of college.
Speaker 1:There's a good place for both of them, but in my current space I'm probably going to need four to five years in this role. And then that's where it's also great to bring in the consultants and the fractionals of the world to get your strategy from that right. You don't have to bring a full-time person in. You can get some strategy support at an affordable cost that's going to help drive the business so that you can then get those four to five-year, 10-year people to actually execute on and then eventually get to that point where then you could afford bringing on the interns and the entry-level folks who can start doing some of the lower level things. But you said it in a way where also scaling, scaling up the skill set right and that's where.
Speaker 1:I think it comes into, especially with the AI digital transformation. Ai is not going to take over your job. The person that knows how to manipulate and use AI to the best of its ability is going to take over your job. So finding those people who either already are in it or are very capable of learning quickly to become an expert within it, that's, those are the people that are going to thrive in tomorrow's future work situation, and so looking for that, that mindset, that skillset.
Speaker 1:And then you know, I would say, empowering employees to to do it, to go out and do it. I think that's another key aspect of you know, owning your talent. Strategy is enabling your people and, like you said, do you ask your or the CEO? Are you asking your employees and your teams? How are you using AI Right?
Speaker 2:absolutely. It's a key question how?
Speaker 1:are you using AI Right? Absolutely, it's a key question. Yeah, a year and a half ago, working in an AI firm, the CEO, basically he came into the executive meeting and said I want each and every one of you to implement AI in your function before we meet again. And you know what I was really proud of? Who was the first person to do it? Oh yeah, that was me. Actually, I had already implemented two tools before he told us to, and I implemented two more after he said that, because it was like oh okay, you're giving me the capability to go and get more. Great. I'm going to do that, because anything that I can do to help uplift my team and make things easier for all of us and bring a higher quality production to the table even better.
Speaker 2:But what about?
Speaker 1:you Like? I feel like I just spoke a ton. What is your experience? What are you seeing? Because I know that you also offer providing support on the talent side for the marketing function.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, and I think it's. It's very similar to what you said. You know it's it's about. You know, my my role right now is I can provide either consulting or fractional services, and so you know my role can be let's help you from a leadership perspective given I've got 25 years of experience that can help you scale up I've seen and done a lot of these things and help you scale up. And then let's find the talent that needs to really be hands on keyboard and build this out, and we can be flexible. You know, in this day and age, what's nice is that there's a lot of flexible talent and fluid talent pools that you can tap into so you can quickly get to scale and get some help while you sort of start to figure out, you know, what may be a more permanent solution is.
Speaker 2:And it allows you to really test as well. Right, you might try something for six months with a temporary solution and find that that's not really where your brain is at right. You're pivoting constantly as a startup, so I think a lot of that is really important, and having, you know, fractional support that's flexible, to allow you to kind of make those adjustments you know, is an important part of it. So I think that that's key. The other thing about being key is just, like I said, you're just building the bike while you it. Right, you know, just be very conscious and able to adjust quickly. Try to drive the best return you can.
Speaker 2:You're coaching and scaling up teams. You're asking them to embrace change in marketing. Marketing never is going to stay still, whether it's AI or the next thing that comes along. You know we're on the cusp of AI is the one thing I'll say. Like, we're at gen AI level one, right, but we don't know where the rest of AI is going to take us. Right, that's 10% of the total AI market and that's just one change impacting our lives. Right, there's other macroeconomic changes impacting our lives too. So you just have to embrace it and ask your employees to say great, this is cool and I'm going to take the challenge on, and I think a lot of that really helps them see, like, okay, great, my leader supports me and understands that, like in your case, like hey, I can use these tools because I can be better with these tools.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well. I think we could probably geek out on both topics there for a while, but we'll wrap it up this time and thank you everyone for listening and we hope you have a great morning, day, evening, afternoon, wherever you are in the world, and we will see you next time on Scaling with People.
