Scaling With People
Tired of spinning your startup wheels but never gaining traction? Buckle up, founders and CEOs, because this podcast is your rocket fuel to profitability! Every week, we ignite explosive conversations with bold-faced founders, brainy experts, and even a few out-of-this-world vendors. Get ready to crack the code on growth, master employee engagement, and blast through your scaling goals. We’re talking real-world strategies, actionable tips, and perspectives that’ll make your business do a cosmic dance. So, strap in and prepare for lift-off!
Scaling With People
Unlocking Podcasting Potential: Liz Brooks on Brand Growth, Audience Engagement, and PR Strategies in a Post-COVID Era
Unlock the secret to brand growth through podcasting as we welcome Liz Brooks, an insightful PR specialist from Interview Valet. Discover how podcasting can revolutionize your public relations strategy by providing an accessible, informal platform that builds genuine connections with audiences. Liz and I explore the power of storytelling and the necessity of clear goals when appearing as a podcast guest, making it possible to reach new and diverse audiences in a meaningful way. We dive into the benefits of targeting smaller, more engaged audiences over large, indifferent ones, using a fascinating analogy from the music industry to illustrate this point.
As we navigate the evolving landscape of podcasting, we discuss the innovative blend of human research and data analysis to select the ideal podcasts for clients and the exciting initiatives to develop a comprehensive impact score for shows. Liz shares her expert insights on maintaining personal relationships with podcast hosts and the creative strategies required to tackle niche topics. We emphasize the importance of adaptability in campaigns, especially in today's post-COVID world, underscoring how podcasting can be a valuable asset for business growth. Join us for this engaging conversation that promises to enrich your understanding of leveraging podcasting in the dynamic realm of brand development.
Welcome everyone to today's Scaling with People podcast. I'm Gwendolyn Vercuri, your host and founder and CEO to Guide to HR. I'm excited about this topic today, so do you know that you can leverage your podcast or be a guest on a podcast to increase your brand and voice? If not, stick with me because I have Liz Brooks on the call who's going to share all about it. Liz, welcome and tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:Hi Guinevere, thank you for having me. Yeah, my name is Liz. I am currently an account manager and PR specialist with Interview Valet. I come from a pretty traditional background in communications and PR after doing a brief stint in like the medical tech world in Silicon Valley. But yeah, I've worked with a lot of a lot of the larger like global PR firms out there. I've worked with a lot of large blue chip tech clients. I signed a lot of NDAs so I can't really say names but you recognize them if you heard them and I kind of got into podcast interview marketing through that world Kind of like as I started working my way up with the accounts that I was working with.
Speaker 2:I started because I've been listening to podcasts for years. I was an early adopter and so I started kind of asking around if clients would be interested in kind of folding in podcasting, guesting as part of the overall PR campaign and there was interest in that. So over time, working with Allison Partners and Ketchum those were the two firms that I started with when I was doing PR work I kind of started owning the podcast pitching, you know, part of those campaigns, and eventually that led into a full time role. I started doing a full time, specifically just focusing on podcast interviews for clients, first with Podchaser and now with Interview Ballet.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Okay, so for us who may not necessarily be marketing experts, what's the difference between PR and podcasting, and why would we want to combine the two?
Speaker 2:It's. It's a very different format and it's a very new and interesting way to reach people. That isn't very traditional, I think, when, when you're thinking about PR campaigns, most folks think about TV appearances, print interviews, things like that. Tv appearances, print interviews, things like that All of these things that require for people to sit down to consume, and a lot of the people that you're trying to reach are too busy. They are founders themselves, they're entrepreneurs, they're CEOs, they also have families to go home to, so not everybody has time to sit down and read the news or to find that information, which I think for that reason, in general, podcasting has just taken off and become as popular as it has, because you can take it on the go, you can do it, you know, on your way to work, while you're gardening, while you're doing those chores.
Speaker 1:You're exercising, while you're exercising, your marathons.
Speaker 2:So it's just such a new, fresh and effective way to reach larger audiences and then also to reach newer audiences as well. I think, versus you know the traditional forms of print and media that are out there, especially when you think about younger audiences and what they're consuming, which you know, as businesses are growing, like our target audiences are constantly getting younger and we're trying to figure out, like, how do we, how do we reach Gen Z? Soon we're going to be figuring out how do we reach Gen A? You know exactly so. So you have to be flexible, you have to think of new ways to get out there, and I think podcasting is a great way to do it.
Speaker 2:Something else that's really cool about podcasting it's just it's a different format, it's more relaxed, it's not, it's not as formal and as rigid, you know, as as a written interview or anything like that. So I think the listeners get to see a different part of you, not just your product or what you're trying to promote, but they also get to listen to you as a human being and connect with you more as a person, which really, really helps. I think when you're when you're reaching audiences and when you're trying to get someone to remember. You go back to your website, buy your book, buy your product, et cetera. If, if they like, can remember you and what you were talking about, if they, if they can make that relation there, I think it's just a much more meaningful way to be able to to reach people.
Speaker 1:I love it. So, going back to your early comment, I want to run an experiment. So, for those of you listening, take two seconds out of your time. Comment right now. What? Where are you listening? How are you listening? Are you exercising? Are you doing your chores? Are you trying to fall asleep?
Speaker 2:Like what is it that you're trying?
Speaker 1:to do and how are you listening? I'd be curious to hear from my listeners what they're doing at the same time. Let's see how many we get and what they're all up to. So I love that experiment.
Speaker 2:We're going to try here.
Speaker 1:I'll be in the comments reading, or the comments saying I was on the podcast doing this, right, but so that's so. That's very interesting and thinking about, you know, starting to get onto a podcast. That could be pretty overwhelming for people who may not necessarily know all the ins and outs and the tricks. And how do you even start going about it? What do I need to do to prep to get onto a podcast? How do I present myself and and be a guest? So what are some of the first like key things that people should be thinking about if they decide to go this route? What's like a first couple steps that you could give them?
Speaker 2:I think and we work with our clients when they come to us with this as well this is kind of similar to what a traditional PR campaign where your first step is what? What is the goal? What story are we trying to tell? What? What problem do you help solve? Right, that, that's usually the case with many of our clients. Also, are there other people out there? Are there other companies who solved that same problem? What sets you apart? Like, how can we distinguish you from the rest, essentially, and then kind of build the story from there?
Speaker 2:Also, what is your personal story? Like, how does that? What inspired you to build this company? What challenge did you overcome that inspired you to create this product? You know, what is the personal connection there as well, because, again, with podcasting, it is so much about the human element of it and the personal connection. So we always want to make sure that we interweave that and have it like very heavily focused in our campaign, because ultimately, podcasters and listeners don't want a commercial. They want to listen to somebody talking about themselves. What inspired them? You know they want, they want those takeaways.
Speaker 2:So so that's step one and then step, you know, kind of like the logistical things, if if you're not familiar with interviews, we can. We can do mock interviews to help you, kind of like practice, go through the process. We also provide equipment to make sure that you're set up correctly and that you sound professional on the show. I think that's that's a problem for a lot of folks who are inexperienced. They're trying to take the interview from their phone or something like that, and if the audio quality sucks, no one's going to listen to it. So that's also a really important step. And funny enough too, like a lot of our clients are podcasters themselves, so they're very familiar with podcasting and the whole process, but a lot of them are new to being guests themselves as well. So we do still sometimes help with that story development, help with those mock interviews surprising enough as it sounds, but yeah, so even the most experienced clients that come to us still sometimes need some of that help to prepare, to get to dip your toes into guesting.
Speaker 1:What's been a trend that you've seen, that you're like man. If I could just get in front of everybody initially to think about X, y, z, before they start podcasting, whether as a guest or creating their own show, what do you? What? What is that?
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, Everybody, especially folks who are new to podcasting. Everybody comes to us wanting to be on the biggest shows out there. Everybody wants to be on Joe Rogan, and the question is why? You know why are you doing podcast podcasting to begin with? Do you just want as many people as possible to hear you? Or, again, are you trying to grow your business? Are you trying to increase your brand awareness or your share of voice? How are we going to get that across? And more and more, we are finding that even smaller, more targeted audiences are going to provide the best ROI for our clients. That is something I've seen that starting to trend since I started doing this full time, and it's something that I'm seeing more and more.
Speaker 2:I'm this is a silly analogy I'm a musician, but I think about it. Like you know a lot of people. They want to go out and they want to play to as many people as possible. It's very similar, right? So it's say, I got a gig at a farmer's market and great, it's downtown. There's going to be a thousand people there throughout the day. Awesome, they're not there, for me, though they're. They just happen to be there because they're, because they go there every week.
Speaker 1:They're there for their vegetables.
Speaker 2:They're there for the food trucks, Like I'm a nice pleasant noise in the background, but they're not going to, they're not going to follow me on social media, they're not going to buy my next record, they're not going to buy tickets to my next show. So, really, what did I get out of that other than whatever hundred bucks I got for playing the gig? Nothing Versus playing to a smaller, maybe underground venue that has an audience of 30 to 40 people and maybe it's a weeknight, but those people love music, they're there on a weeknight. They're also probably into the type of music that I'm playing because they came to that show, you know. So they're more likely going to follow me to to buy my next album, to buy tickets to the next show. Also, the connections that I can make working at that smaller venue are going to have way more payoff in the future than the connections that I made at the farmer's market. You know, just talking to the crew like maybe the booker really loved our set and he's friends with the guy who books the Fillmore downtown Like it's just much more beneficial, even though it was a smaller audience. Maybe it was more inconvenient because I had a play at like 10 o'clock on a Wednesday, but we're going to get so much more return on our investment from doing that versus just playing to the largest crowd. So that's the same with podcasting it's talking to a room of 10,000 people who just happen to be there because they listen every week, or talking to a focused room of 100 people that are interested in your industry and can benefit from what you have to offer. That's what's going to get you results. So that's a huge one.
Speaker 2:I think also how we measure a show's reach or value. That is something that's constantly in flux, I think, across the industry as a whole. When we started or when I started at least, it was always about downloads. You know how many? How many downloads per month does the show get that very quickly changed because people stop downloading shows. I don't download shows unless I'm about to go on a plane and I'm not going to have any reception. So, very quickly those numbers didn't really mean anything.
Speaker 2:That then switched to listenership. You know how many listeners per month, how many listeners per episode. But we're starting to take a lot more things into consideration, especially because self-reported numbers can be very inflated. The way that we gather this data is also constantly in flux, so how we're also determining the value of the show is changing as well. So we're looking into different impact points, such as what's the global ranking of the show, of all the active podcasts that are out there? What's their social media following, how many platforms are they on? What's their domain authority? So we're taking a lot more data points into consideration, I guess to to package the show as a whole as to how beneficial it will be for our clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense and I was thinking about that too. It's like there are so many podcasts out there Like how does one go about figuring which ones are right for them, or where to start and like or even like a listener right? Like there's so many out there. You could literally spend your whole day and night, your whole, every, every moment you breathe, listening to podcasts and you still want to get through all of them. There's just so many. Is there like um? Is there like some kind of like rhythm or is or not rhythm? Is there some kind of like algorithm that you guys use or is it really like you're searching based off of the purpose of the podcast and the target audience of the podcast and that matches. It's a combination.
Speaker 2:It's a combination.
Speaker 2:So we use a lot of licensed databases where we get data such as listenership numbers and things like that.
Speaker 2:We get data such as listenership numbers and things like that, but it is also just a lot of a lot of research, a lot of listening to the shows ourselves.
Speaker 2:We already know a lot of that information just from the relationships that we have with a lot of the hosts that we've been working with for so long. But, yeah, it's definitely a combination. There's a lot of like human work and research that goes into it, but then we also do use the data that we have from our other resources and again just kind of package that up as a whole. In fact, one of the one of the big initiatives that we're working with here at Interview Ballet is is how we are putting that together to develop an overall impact score for a show that we want to start to try to try using to measure that as well, and hopefully that's something that we'll be rolling out next year. But it is tricky and again, it is constantly in flux and there is so much data that goes into it that it's been taking us a little while, but it is a really big initiative for us.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's exciting. I can't wait to see, when you get it out, what that looks like. So, speaking of data and what you're working on, what are some of the trends that you've been seeing in podcasting lately?
Speaker 2:Podcasting is not dying. It's constantly growing. We're seeing more podcasts out there, more guests, more listeners. I think developing more contact and expanding is something that I'm definitely seeing, especially with kind of like legacy shows that have been around for a really long time. You know, every now and then we'll present a show to someone and they're like oh, it says that this is a crypto show. Like I'm, I'm not a crypto person. They don't just talk about crypto anymore, they're talking about so many other things. They just haven't really updated the description of the show. So I think, yeah, just just kind of like expansion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 1:I found a couple of podcasts that I started listening to and I was like, oh, just kind of like expansion, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I found a couple of podcasts that I started listening to and I was like, oh, these are good. And then there'll be like, but there's only 10 or 15. And then, like they were four years old, I'm like, oh, they didn't continue. So do you ever like like what happens with those? Like, are you, are you like for those? How do you like take those out, especially if someone's just starting a podcast like you don't want to end up being you know their number fourth guest. And then they didn't get farther than 10 or 15 and it just kind of sat there right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we we usually don't work with shows until they have a certain number of episodes out there, just so that we know that they're established and that they're continuing to work, are going to be continuing to work and put them out there. So that's. That's definitely, you know, a huge data point that we take into consideration when working with shows. But we're just, we're always monitoring. Our team monitors these shows weekly. Also, again, we have personal relationships with many of the hosts, so sometimes they'll let us know that the show is coming to an end. That actually happened this week with somebody that we work with, which is sad. But yeah, we're, we're just constantly kind of like keeping our finger on the pulse of those things and making sure that our records are up to date.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. So fun question for you podcast or through your PR experience what's been the fun like, the most fun campaign you worked on and why?
Speaker 2:I think one of the most interesting campaigns that I worked on and again I can't say the name of the client, but they worked within it was medical devices for very rare blood disorders, which isn't like the sexiest topic necessarily.
Speaker 2:And even though it's like saving lives right, but it was so, so niche, though, even though it's like saving lives, right, but it was so, so niche, um, and so we had to get really, really creative with with how we were getting them on shows. But my um, my favorite experience from that and it's also because the clients were great to work with and they were flexible and they were open to new things but there was a true crime show that was called good nurse, bad nurse, um, which but these were nurses as well um, they had they, the hosts, were nurses and then they would have nurses on as guests and they would always they would cover some type of crime that happened, like within the medical field, like, think, you know the dark angels, like the nurses that, yeah, you know kind of dark stuff, but they went on that and had such a blast. It was really really interesting seeing them open up to this completely different kind of show and they had so much fun with it and it was just really interesting seeing a completely different side of them. And again, it was it was a smaller show, it was a different kind of audience, but they still made very valuable connections through that, I think, another.
Speaker 2:Another really fun campaign show that I worked with was an olive oil client of all things, but we were. We were able to get him on two dudes in one kitchen, which I'm just. Are you familiar with the show? Yes, so yeah, like Tyler Florence, my husband and I are huge foodies. So just being able to work with his team and then Wells Adams I'm I'm a big Bachelor Nation fan, so it was just really really fun being able to make those touch points and those connections and to work with their team Definitely one of the most fun shows that I've worked with.
Speaker 1:So that was an interesting experience, yeah, for sure. And what I think the two things I got out of that was, you know, keeping it small. It's more about the quality than quantity, right, like you're having five quality leads versus 500 cold leads.
Speaker 2:Kind, of 100%. Yes, it's. Bigger is not better. Better is better and you have to figure out like what that better is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the second thing I take away is you know, don't just maybe think outside the box. Sometimes there might be a podcast that you're like, no, this doesn't fit me, but maybe you could turn things around and have a little bit of fun with it and have your brand and your voice be heard in a different way, which is always great to expose other audiences from that perspective.
Speaker 2:Definitely, I think the more flexible you are and the more open-minded you are, the better the campaign is going to go, but also the the better you're going to sound on the shows, the more fun you're going to have with this process as well.
Speaker 1:So more human you come across, which is what people want, especially, not only with the, you know, the Gen Z and millennials and the younger crowd.
Speaker 1:I'm not one of them, but you know the younger kids these days, right, and also, you know, post COVID, I feel like that has just become more and more important in business. No matter how big or small you are, it's about the relationships and and and keeping them and growing them and expanding them. So one last question I have for you. We were talking about a little bit earlier in our prep conversation, but for those listeners out there who are, you know, maybe pre-seed or haven't even really taken that step to start their business all the way through, people who've really gotten it going maybe are like 10, 15 million, you know, maybe even farther along in their 100 million life cycle. Where do you see this being a value add for business leaders in regards to like doing this over something else, or maybe doing this plus something else?
Speaker 2:I think, definitely like SMB owners are going to have the most benefit out of this. I think they're also going to be the most open to doing something like this, as well as having the time the most open to doing something like this, as well as having having the time, I think once. Once teams get too big, those speaking engagements just get pushed off to other staff. Always what I found when I was working in traditional PR like that, those quotes those interviews were not coming from the CEO.
Speaker 1:They were coming from someone on their team, or me. Fair fair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that's. That's not to say that there isn't, you know, a benefit in doing this once you reach those, those larger tiers. I just think that it's usually the younger folks, those that have smaller, who are still like up and coming, that just tend to see the most value in this. That's not to say that there isn't value beyond that. That's just what I have seen so far.
Speaker 1:We all have different life cycles, right? Like I mean the business. You know, I always kind of look at the business as a human life cycle. You know, you got born and you're wearing diapers, and that's important at that point in time. But you got born and you're wearing diapers, and that's important at that point in time, but then, as you grow up, you're not going to wear diapers anymore, right? So it's, you know, it's all a matter of perspective of where you are in your life cycle, what you need, what your time, where your time should be really spent. That's going to be the most value add for your business growth. So I think that's that seems absolutely right. So, as we wrap up here, liz, any last final thoughts or tips or tricks that our listeners could take away with them?
Speaker 2:Well, again, bigger is not better, Better is better. Be flexible, Be human, Like we know you're trying to sell or promote something, but you know, remember to bring in the human element to it. That's what's going to connect the most with people. And if you want to find me, follow me, learn more about what I do or what we do here at Interview Ballet. You can go to interviewballetcom slash Liz and you will find me there.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thanks, Liz, Appreciate you being on the call with me today and for those listeners, thanks so much for joining us and we look forward to having you on the next show. Until then, have a wonderful day, weekend evening, wherever you are in the world, whenever you're listening, finish that workout, finish that chore and then come and comment what you were doing while you were listening. Thanks again, everyone. Have a good one. Bye, Thank you.
