Scaling With People
Tired of spinning your startup wheels but never gaining traction? Buckle up, founders and CEOs, because this podcast is your rocket fuel to profitability! Every week, we ignite explosive conversations with bold-faced founders, brainy experts, and even a few out-of-this-world vendors. Get ready to crack the code on growth, master employee engagement, and blast through your scaling goals. We’re talking real-world strategies, actionable tips, and perspectives that’ll make your business do a cosmic dance. So, strap in and prepare for lift-off!
Scaling With People
Rewriting Your Leadership Story: From Childhood Patterns to Business Growth with Dr. Sharon Spano
What if the biggest obstacle to your business success isn't your strategy, market, or team—but the narrative written decades ago in your childhood?
Dr. Sharon Spano joins Gwendolyn McCreary to reveal how our earliest experiences create patterns that silently shape our leadership decisions. These subconscious scripts influence everything from hiring practices to work-life integration, often creating what Sharon calls "the emptiness of success"—when leaders achieve their business goals but feel profoundly unfulfilled.
This conversation goes beyond surface-level business advice to explore the deeper human systems at work in leadership. Sharon shares powerful insights on recognizing harmful patterns, embracing growth opportunities, and staying present whether at work or with family. She challenges the concept of work-life balance, suggesting instead that we aim for integration through intentional choices and full presence.
For founders struggling with perfectionism, relationship patterns, or simply feeling that something's missing despite outward success, this episode offers both validation and practical steps forward. Sharon's approach combines systems thinking with developmental psychology to help leaders grow alongside their businesses rather than being outpaced by them.
The discussion provides concrete tools for identifying childhood narratives, setting realistic expectations, and creating meaningful success that encompasses both business achievement and personal fulfillment. Sharon emphasizes that growth isn't about self-criticism but opportunity—each challenge offers a chance to evolve into a more effective leader.
Ready to discover what might be holding you back and rewrite your leadership playbook? Take Sharon's Leader's Edge Quiz at sharonspano.com/scalingwithpeople to identify where you are in the 12 stages of human development and unlock your next level of growth.
Welcome to Scaling with People, your weekly playbook for turning chaos into compounding growth. Each week, we go under the hood with battle-tested experts in all areas of business, from marketing to sales, operation, finance and people, plus product and leadership, to unpack the plays, numbers and systems that turn chaos into compounding growth. Learn straight from founders and experts who've done it and continue to do it successfully. There's zero fluff, just moves that you can still immediately. This podcast is brought to you by Guide to HR. Human expertise AI-powered impact. Welcome everyone to today's Scaling with People podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm Gwendolyn McCreary, your host and founder and CEO to Guide to HR. So what is the biggest thing holding your business back? It isn't your strategy, your market or even your team. Is it you now or is it what shaped you years ago? In this episode, we're going to be diving into the surprising ways your childhood narrative, your beliefs, fears, internal stories might be silently running the show and, more importantly, how to rewrite the script so your business can finally scale like it's meant to be. I'm excited to have Dr Sharon Spano here with me today to talk about this and dive into it. I am fascinated by this subject and I can't wait to dive in. Sharon, please introduce yourself to the audience.
Speaker 2:Well, first, gwen, gwen Aver, thank you so much for having me today. I'm really excited to have the conversation and, as you said, I am Dr Sharon Spano. But let me make it clear I'm not a psychologist or psychotherapist or anything. I'm not even a scholar practitioner, or I am a scholar practitioner. I should say I'm not a scholar in the traditional sense of academia, but what I do is I work with high impact leaders to really help them uncover, discover what it is that might be holding them back, so that they can be better leaders for themselves, their businesses and even their families. And I think that's a very important piece of what I do, because I believe in the whole person, not just focusing on the business alone.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and as founders a lot of times we might be founder of just like we're the only ones we could have one or two people helping us. But when you're first starting that business out, your family life, your friends, everything that's outside of that business kind of takes a back seat. So having that be part of the process is I could see it be very meaningful for those interacting with you.
Speaker 2:It's something that I care very much about because for many, many years, particularly in the last 10 years, I was just literally seeing families and marriages imploding as a result of the rapid pace and the complexity that we're all facing. You know, really essentially being on call and in service 24 seven. You know with facing. You know really essentially being on call and in service 24-7, you know with. You know boxers and texting and all that we have available to us. And so I really have learned through the last many years that when I can help a leader be a better leader, I'm also helping him be a better person.
Speaker 2:Spouse you know father, mother, and it has a dramatic impact on that family life. And I just feel very excited to be able to help leaders because so much of the time when they come to me, they have what I call often the emptiness of success, and many times it's they've acquired, you know, the business and the money and the cars and all the toys, but they'll often say I'm not connected to my children, sharon, and I don't know what to do about that, and that is heartbreaking to me because really, what are you building the business for? You're building it for your family, and if you're losing your family along the way, then kind of, what's the point?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a lot of hard work and effort and energy to get to an outcome. You think it's going to be real and then you get there and you've lost the whole purpose of why and now you're not connected. That's really sad.
Speaker 2:Very much so, very much so.
Speaker 1:So when you're working with founders and leaders and executives on on this what's kind of like a first step of of working through, like for the listeners out there, when they're thinking about how could this be impacting me, like my childhood could be impacting my business, like how, where do I start with that, that seems like a really big leap for some. What's kind of first thought that comes to mind for you in regards to kind of giving some advice to our audience here today?
Speaker 2:Well, first let me tell you what I see and then I'll tell you maybe what the average person out there, the leader out there, might think to notice within themselves. Because I think we all have a sense of what's working or not working to some degree in our lives, but we very rarely can link it, particularly if we're high achievers, to our early childhood experiences and if we even have awareness of any trauma, you know and by that I mean it could be a capital T or lowercase t. It's all relevant to the person. But if we have awareness of a trauma, high achievers tend to just move past that and actually use that as the energy to catapult them into success, which is an awesome thing. But when I get them, they're often at a point where again the emptiness of success is starting to show up. And I've done all this hard work but I'm not happy. I had one client not too long ago say to me I don't even know what happiness looks like.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:It's very heartbreaking and they're not fulfilled and they don't know why. And they can be making tons of money again. So what I say to people as a first step, just to give you something a little more concrete, is to really start to notice the patterns. My work is all about systems and, again, adult development, and people often think about the systems. In their business we have what I call concrete systems. You know our financial systems, our marketing systems.
Speaker 2:HR tools and all the stuff that we need to do to scale, but we often don't have awareness that humans, we are systems within ourselves and there are a variety of systems that we're moving in human systems throughout our day, throughout our life. So you need to know how to navigate those. So, going back to my first thought is if you're looking at the patterns in those systems the human systems just the same way that you would look at your financial or your in those systems, the human systems, just the same way that you would look at your financial or your more concrete systems, you start to see what's working and what's not working. And once you see those patterns, then you can discern do I have the skills and abilities and awareness to do what I need to do to rectify the situation here, or do I perhaps need a mentor or coach, or maybe even therapy? So so an example I can give you is if you're seeing that, um, like one of my clients, years ago I had a pattern, uh, that and again we typically blame the other guy, right Cause we don't think it could be us. Of course it can't be us.
Speaker 2:Yes, by nature, you know, we have a first person perspective. She had a pattern of just hiring and firing a revolving door of people coming through her business and it was costing her time, money, anxiety, her early childhood that contributed to this pattern. That was really linked to perfectionism and no one could ever measure up to her ideal of perfectionism. But it was really more projection. It was really all about a self-loathing that came from early childhood experiences and then a very, very bad marriage where she was in an abusive marriage. So we look at all kinds of things and it's just very interesting because it's not about anything being right or wrong. It's just about looking at the patterns in the system and then identifying them. And what we'd like to say in my field is once you can recognize what is, you can then lay that down so that something new and better can emerge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and really kind of help break your mind from that story, that narrative that you're telling yourself and recognizing. I think you know information is the first step. Right of understanding and acknowledging is the next. So that's very powerful. Right of understanding and acknowledging is the next, so, uh, that's very powerful. So when you kind of get to that point of okay, you have that self-reflection, you know something happened. Maybe that's what's tying me to why I can't get, can't move past this, this roadblock in my place, whether it's my professional career or it's to grow my business. What are some of the tools or tips or tricks that, like the, you could take to help start breaking down that roadblock and really being able to get past it and grow?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the first thing, again, once you've identified the patterns, is to you know. And what's so wonderful now Guinevere, as you know, is we have so much information via chat. And I mean, you know, if you can't perhaps hire a coach or someone like myself, you know you could go on chat and just do the research and say you know this happened and I'm exhibiting behaviors in this way. You know, do you have any recommendations for me? I mean, it's not going to give you. Obviously, it's input. What you put in is what you're going to get out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, careful, the hallucinations too.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's going to give you some information, but it's not going to be able to do the deeper work of uncovering the subconscious in the way that someone like myself I mean, we're trained to hear what's not being said, right.
Speaker 2:We're like mine and chat certainly cannot do that, but you never know, it might give you some very basic things. But I think also you know one of the tools just to go back to something more concrete and practical that I see I have to work with every client on. We do genograms, you know, we look at family history and I do something called constellation work, where we map out what's going on in the system. There's a variety of things that I do, but one of the things that I'm always having to do revolves around communication and that's something very concrete that if you're struggling with relationships as an example, you certainly can do a little research on your own and figure out a method.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I find people struggle with the most often is they don't understand the different types of communication. What is the difference between being passive, passive, aggressive, assertive and aggressive? You know, and obviously we want to be assertive so that we can, we can ask for what we want and what we need to have happen, and that, to me, is a very simple. Well, it's, it's simple, but not easy.
Speaker 1:I guess I want a simple concept uh, you know, complicated to execute, execute, implement. Yeah, but?
Speaker 2:but the work is, know when you're getting into the subconscious mind and things that people have been through. I mean it's very deep work. I have a 12 week process that I take people through. That just creates a whole tremendous amount of transformational results, and sometimes people need more than 12 weeks, but we can do a lot in 12 weeks based on the different modalities and the and the different approaches that I've I've, you know, been certified in and trained in for years and years, and it's all research-based I mean, it's not me, just you know making stuff up as we go. But you have to be really in tuned, I think, to human nature and understand you know how people are wired and and what's going on within them and and to. The other thing I would say for your listeners is, when you discover something, I always say, the first moment of awareness is opportunity for change.
Speaker 2:So, if you're looking at the patterns and you see something about yourself, and most of the time we know, we know, but we don't know the why um, be kind to yourself because again, it's an opportunity for growth. And if you, if you're beating yourself up over, oh, my gosh, here I am again doing this thing again.
Speaker 1:Whatever the thing is, it only, uh, reinforces shame and guilt, which is not productive at all yeah, and I mean, when you're growing, when you're changing, you're learning, it's hard and it's not a flip of the switch, right. So I know for myself like I have little cards and little stick sticker notes, old school posted notes that are attached to my monitor to remind me. You know, I have AI, okay, I need to do X, y, z, like don't forget to use AI in my day-to-day stuff, right? And I have other things, simplification, and so you know, keeping things in front of you is also a really good, helpful way. And yeah, like you said, give yourself empathy. You know we're humans. You're going to backslip a little bit, but recognize it, learn from that and then keep going and keep growing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2:You know, after years of being in the developmental space, I now look at these things that come at us not only as opportunities for growth, but literally it's like hallelujah, here it is again. I get to learn again and grow some more, and I think you know that that's a mindset you know that any one of us could take on, rather than oh my gosh, here I am again and I can't believe I'm making the same mistake again or I'm having the same problem again. You know if it's happening over and over again, yeah, there's work to be done there, but I think it's important to know that it's a normal part of human development and when we're growing a business particularly because the leader that starts the business is not going to be the leader down the road- then, you don't want to have the business outgrow you, and so you know, I see this a lot with clients where the business outgrows them and they can't accept the reality that they need different supports or that maybe they're not even the right person on the right seat on the bus.
Speaker 2:So they need to do some work on themselves in order to grow with the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is so very true. I have a couple examples where I'm working with founders and you know they get to series B or C or even D and it's kind of like, okay, so are you going to step up and be with the business needs, or do we need to figure out a way to execute a transition? And you know that's really tough on a business too, because a lot of people are there because of the founder, and so when you do make that switch, it is challenging. So how can the founder continue to scale and grow themselves professionally so that they're growing with the business and not let the business outgrow them, right, yeah, yeah, that's so true. So I want to pull on a thread you said earlier that made my heart really hurt, which is that you've worked with some people who've really, you know, in the to outside world seems very successful. They should be very happy and loving their life and, man, I wish I was them kind of thing, right. But you're saying that, man, they're just like, they're just totally unfulfilled, they're unhappy.
Speaker 1:They've made, they missed the exit so that they could be with their family or whatever it might be, and I know you you talk a lot about rewriting, like the leadership playbook, from the point of being like balancing your ambitious with the fulfillment. I'd love to talk a little bit about that because I think a lot of the founders you know may not be in that spot now but if they hear some things from you today could help them highlight making sure that they're making the right turns and exits when they need to to not end up there in the future. So I'd love to dive into that a little bit more. Can you share a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm not one that believes in work-life balance. I don't think that's possible. It may just be a semantic twist, but I prefer the word or the phrasing work-life integration, because I don't think we're ever completely balanced. We're having to make choices. We're holding, you know, we're not at. When we're at work, we're thinking of our families or feeling something some pull toward all of that, and when we're at home with our families, we're feeling, oh my gosh, guilty that I shouldn't be working, and so I think it's. We're constantly making choices about what is the most important thing in front of me right now.
Speaker 2:And I like to tell the audience and listeners and my own listeners on my own show know that I had a son who was disabled. My son passed away in 2008. It was critical for four years and I had the most profound client list. During those four years I was making the most money ever and it was like all there at the same time.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I could not. You know, it's one of those things where you know your kids in the hospital and you're running I literally was running my business out of the hospital and I, I, I remember thinking each day well, tomorrow he will be better because other. If I had known that he wasn't going to ever get better, I probably would have just quit and canceled all the contracts or whatever. But you keep thinking tomorrow is going to be better and you have all these responsibilities and you know health insurance and all these things, right. But but each day I made decisions about, okay, what has to happen today? Well, today, you know, I need to be with Mike because this or that procedure is occurring. My husband, fortunately, is an entrepreneur, so we were able to pitch hit for each other and make those which I know for a lot of families.
Speaker 2:If you, you know you're running a huge business or you're you work in a corporate environment, you may not have those options, but if I had, for instance, a speaking engagement or a meeting with clients, my husband was at the hospital and vice versa. But what I learned through that period was it was a constant sense of integration of work and family, and some things could not happen, Like I could not get to the gym. That that was totally out. You know, I was eating hospital food, so I gained weight and I had to just let that go. You're making these decisions on a daily basis as to what needs to happen, but always in in in my world anyway, with the family in mind.
Speaker 2:And then I won't say that I did it perfectly. There were times where I was traveling before my son got ill and I look back now and I think, oh, I wish I won't say that I did it perfectly. There were times where I was traveling before my son got ill and I look back now and I think, oh, I wish I hadn't traveled as much because I lost those days with him. So I don't think it's easy for any family, you know, when you're running a business. But I think, if we look at it in terms of the whole package, rather than the business has to come first, we have a better chance of integrating that which is most important and the reason that we're building the business, as I said earlier, in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and so many founders I mean they could be this business, could be a lifestyle business, but for those listening are building a business. It probably isn't right and so they're probably in it 24, seven, three, 65. So really forcing yourself to have that time with your family, creating those boundaries a little bit. But with integration, like I'm curious, like you know a lot of people like you need to create boundaries and keep them. But if I think about integration, I think about that actually kind of like maybe like a vine in my, my gate or my boundary, my wall, kind of like intertwining with my wall. Like from your perspective, how does boundaries work?
Speaker 2:if you're talking more around integration, yeah, I think that's such a great question, guedever, because I think again, it goes back to the choices, but I'm thinking of even smaller things. Like you know, you's what I'm assuming might be a single dad on a Saturday morning with his two kids, but then they're on their iPads and he's on his phone instead of. You know, that's an opportunity for us to communicate over a meal, and then let me go to my phone after and let you go to your iPads after the fact. So the boundary setting, I think, is really important in terms of thinking about again and it's not always easy to know which is the most important but I think of my husband was such a great example.
Speaker 2:If my son, for instance, had something going on at school, my husband was there and it was in his schedule and the attorneys and whoever else he might need to see were scheduled around that. It was that kind of thing because he would not miss something that you know, my son, my son, was doing so and I have to say I think he was better at it than I was. But but again, you know, valuing that the family doesn't always have to come second and you know, in vacations like I meet so many people that aren't even going on vacations with their families because they don't want to leave work you know so.
Speaker 2:I think, to answer your question, it's about choice and then, once you choose, being fully present wherever you are.
Speaker 1:Being committed to that choice. That's what I hear. I see sometimes founders, managers, leaders, people in general they'll make a choice, even like a business decision, but then they'll start floundering. And so I would say, what I'm hearing from you is, make that choice and then stand behind it and then be present in that choice.
Speaker 2:There's such freedom in being present Like I was in. Vegas over the weekend. I went to see the Eagles concert and I totally just I mean, yeah, I'm checking my phone, I'm checking my emails, because I left on Friday, thursday, so I'm checking them, but I'm not like in it. You know, I'm in my mind, that's a moment, but I'm totally present where I am with my husband.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it really is a shift in perspective, and mine even more, I think, than the actual doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's about how you are being in that choice.
Speaker 1:Being very intentional, like going back to the example of your husband. He was very intentional, intentional, like going back to the example of your husband. He was very intentional. He made a commitment to himself, or he had a desire to execute on being at your son's school events and he made that commitment by putting it on the calendar and telling people, setting expectations around people and I'm sure everyone that he worked with that it didn't become a problem, right? Everyone understood and everyone. Now, when you're in the corporate world, it could be a little challenging, right, and so you know you just like work through that. But I think if you set those expectations and you, you're, we're all working all the time. I feel like, right. So it's like is it OK that I go and leave at three and I come back in online at five and I work from?
Speaker 1:five to ten, I'm actually giving you more hours than if I just worked until five, right, yeah, so letting me have that flexibility and being intentional and showing up where you should be at the time. I love that. Well, as we wrap up, I feel like I want to talk to you about more things, psychology-wise and people behavior-wise. But, as we wrap up today's session, any last final thoughts or tips or tricks you'd like to give to the audience as they think through what we shared with them today and how they can incorporate that into their day-to-day life, whether it's professional, personal or both?
Speaker 2:I think what comes to my mind as you ask that question is to just really realize that these are very, very complex times more than we've ever seen in the history of man at work, because of all the things that you and I have talked about in terms of the, the rapid pace of things and the always being on on call, and and to recognize that there's never, ever I mean ever going to be an end of the day where you feel like you got it all done and met everyone's needs. That just doesn't happen anymore.
Speaker 2:So, to be realistic about it and and set goals that are, you know, realistic, like today. I'm going to get these three things done, and whatever else I get done is an as an added bonus. But whatever it's going to take in terms of your own conversation to be to get to the end of the day and feel good about yourself and that you did something meaningful. And tomorrow's another day, because the workload is going to be there tomorrow and the day after and the day after and then when we're off again to be present and enjoy that time that we're with our loved ones.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is such a great tool and I even like when you're saying that I recognize the days where I end feeling successful are the days where I come in and say these are the top things I need to get done to move the needle for the business and if I get those done even though I have a billion other things to do if I can just get those done, that's going to move the business in the direction it needs to go. I feel so accomplished and when I don't start my day off with that, I end the day just feeling so overwhelmed and just feeling like I didn't do anything. Yet I worked my tail off Right, so I love that. I think I personally do that and feel like it. It just makes the biggest difference in how I feel about myself and where I'm at in my own role in business. So a great, great tip there. Thank you, sharon, appreciate that Well, thank you for having me on.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. Can I mention the, the the sheet.
Speaker 1:Yes, please.
Speaker 2:I want to make sure your listeners know that we will have uh, uh, it's at Sharon Spanocom forward slash scaling with people the name of your show, all lowercase, no spaces, and we have on there the leader's edge quiz. It's very simple but, again, it's based on the human development model that is far more complex. We brought it down to a way that will help people see where they are. There are 12 stages of human development and I really know when people see where they are, they feel much more comfortable in meeting the obstacles in front of them because they see that, oh, I'm just, I'm not stuck there's. This is again an opportunity for growth, for me to move up that scale, and it's user-friendly and not too too long to take. So I welcome anyone that wants to take it to go there, and your podcast will be there and lots of other things that will help them start to see.
Speaker 1:And we'll put the link in at the bottom of the podcast as well.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. Thank you again for having me on today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, sharon, for joining us and for the listeners. I hope you had some good takeaways and we'll look forward to having you join us on the next one. See you then. Thanks so much. That's a wrap for today's episode of scaling with people. If you got value from this conversation, do me a favor, share it with someone building something big. And hey, hey, I'd love to hear your take. Drop a comment, shoot me a message or start a conversation, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss the bold, unfiltered strategies we drop every week. I'm Gwenda Raquiri, founder and CEO of Guide to HR, where we help high-growth companies scale smart with people-first strategies and AI-powered systems that don't just keep up, they lead. If you're building fast and want your HR to move faster, head to guide to HRcom, and let's talk and remember scale isn't just about speed, it's about people. Until next time, have a great one.
