Scaling With People
Tired of spinning your startup wheels but never gaining traction? Buckle up, founders and CEOs, because this podcast is your rocket fuel to profitability! Every week, we ignite explosive conversations with bold-faced founders, brainy experts, and even a few out-of-this-world vendors. Get ready to crack the code on growth, master employee engagement, and blast through your scaling goals. We’re talking real-world strategies, actionable tips, and perspectives that’ll make your business do a cosmic dance. So, strap in and prepare for lift-off!
Scaling With People
Leadership at Every Stage: Scaling Through Turbulence with John Marvin
Every founder dreams of rapid growth, but few are prepared for the leadership challenges that come with it. In this candid conversation with John Marvin, who brings 25 years of experience as President and CEO of a major eye care company, we dive deep into the leadership strategies that actually work when your business hits the "messy middle" - that critical scaling phase where what got you here won't get you there.
Marvin doesn't mince words when identifying the biggest leadership mistake during growth periods: micromanagement. When business takes off, the instinct to protect what you've built by controlling everything can actually stifle your momentum and drive away the talented people you need most. Instead, he advocates hiring for where you want to go, not just where you are now, and trusting your team with both responsibility and authority.
Perhaps most powerfully, Marvin shares his personal approach to staying grounded during business turbulence. "I'm a believer that you have to manage your imagination," he explains, detailing how leaders must control their thoughts to avoid the fear spiral that leads to defensive, small-ball decisions. His practice of dedicated morning reflection time provides the mental clarity and spiritual grounding to lead effectively through uncertainty - something your team desperately needs to see when challenges arise.
The conversation takes a practical turn when Marvin discusses organizational restructuring as companies grow. Drawing from his own experience, he reveals how he transitioned from having everyone report directly to him to creating effective leadership layers, all while maintaining team morale and productivity. His approach to handling underperforming employees with dignity offers a masterclass in compassionate but necessary transitions.
Whether you're experiencing explosive growth or navigating rough waters, Marvin's parting advice resonates deeply: "The learning is in the doing." Start moving in your desired direction today, even imperfectly, rather than waiting for perfect information. Your leadership journey, like your business, unfolds one intentional step at a time.
Send him a message here ate LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jdmarvin/
Welcome to Scaling with People, your weekly playbook for turning chaos into compounding growth. Each week, we go under the hood with battle-tested experts in all areas of business, from marketing to sales, operation, finance and people, plus product and leadership, to unpack the plays, numbers and systems that turn chaos into compounding growth. Learn straight from founders and experts who've done it and continue to do it successfully. There's zero fluff, just moves that you can still immediately. This podcast is brought to you by Guide to HR human expertise, ai-powered impact. Welcome everyone to today's Scaling with People podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm Gwyneth Rear-Currie, your host and founder and CEO to Guide to HR. All right Strappin' founders, this one's a wild ride through scaling and staying sane. What got you here won't get you there, and nobody knows that better than today's guest. On this episode of Scaling with People, we're talking to John Marvin, a powerhouse leader who's guided businesses through the messy middle those awkward teenagers staying in the oh crap, hyper-growth phase, which I hope, if you have an experience, you will in your near future. So we're unpacking the leadership strategies that actually work at every stage of the journey, because skilling isn't just about growing bigger, it's about growing smarter. So welcome, john. I can't wait to dive into this conversation, but before we do introduce yourself to the audience, Well, thank you for having me, Greta Veer.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate it. Look forward to the conversation. I just finished a little over 25 years as president and CEO of a large Texas-based regional company where we are in the optometry or eye care space. Where we are in the optometry or eye care space Company, Texas State Optical, is celebrating its 90th year in business next year. So over the course of that time it's had an opportunity to grow big, get smaller, come back, redefine itself, reimagine itself, and that's the only way you frankly get to 90 years is you've got to stay relevant and so, but after a great run with them, I decided to resign in earlier this year and have been spending my time now helping businesses and people like are in your audience understand leadership and how to take advantage of the opportunities that come along, to catch the wave, so to speak, and to grow and scale up and to work through all of that. So I appreciate the invitation to be here.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and leadership is so important and your people in general right. In a business, I mean. Without them, you're not going to be able to scale and grow, although some companies out there believe that they're going to get to the 100 million mark AI themselves only, which maybe they'll prove is correct, but until then, we know we need our people right. So, when the company starts growing fast, what do you see as the first thing that most leaders get wrong about managing their people as they're growing?
Speaker 2:Micromanage them.
Speaker 2:I think that you know it starts with the mistake starts when they go to select the people that they bring on to the team people that they bring on to the team.
Speaker 2:And you need to hire when you're not growing and scaling up in a big way, as if you are growing and scaling up in a big way, meaning you need to make sure you've got the right talent, they've got the capabilities to themselves scaling up and growing personally and as the business and the demands of the business grow as well. And so what happens is when things start getting exciting and the business starts coming in in a big way, there's a tendency to want to protect it and you kind of default many leaders to kind of default back to well, I can't really trust anybody except myself, and that is the sure way to stifle that growth that you're experiencing and lose some really talented people along the way, which is the last thing you want to do is to be out hiring more or replacing people when you are scaling up. So I think micromanaging is probably the biggest mistake most often made?
Speaker 1:yeah, absolutely, and I have seen it. Founders who you know think oh, I can do it better, or this is mine and, and you know, if you do want, to like the concept of if, if you want it done right, do it yourself, right?
Speaker 1:So if you could hire a little bit earlier, get that person in place, get them to really understand your philosophy, your, your vision, and then see how they execute on it before it becomes really pivotal for your business, then you have that, you build that trust and you have that there to be able to let them go and execute your vision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, you build that trust and you have that there to be able to let them go and execute your vision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, instead of hiring. Okay, sorry.
Speaker 2:No, I was going to say, instead of hiring for what you are, hire for where you want to go and look for the talent you're going to need when the business grows. Part of that is the faith of the founder or the owner or the operator, the faith that's required to see a vision for a future. Yeah, and oftentimes that also is missing, and it's if you sit down and ask some businesses, especially a smaller business, and say what is your vision for the company and the plan, it's like, well, we just want to do more this year than we did last year and that is not a vision or a plan.
Speaker 1:No, it's not, and you really do. A lot of times I see it coming into customers that they don't have a structure in place of. If we get this type of customer or you know product design or whatever you're selling, right, if you get this sales, this agreement executed and now you need to do this work, what does that mean on the backend? So, understanding the type of product or the type of services that you're selling out there and what you need on the backend to produce, and then be able to have that fluctuation up and down, because most sales timeline is not in, you know, two hours you don't like meet someone and then you sign a contract with them, right then and there, right, so you have some time to build a model that under you understand hey, if we get this type of work in, these are the people we need. And also, then what type of work are you going after? And then you could start planning things a bit better.
Speaker 2:Depending on the kind of business and the size of it. Especially if someone's a new founder just starting a new business and it's about a year and a half to two years old, those businesses are typically built around personality of the founder built around personality of the founder, and so there is a reluctance to delegate the authority.
Speaker 2:There's never a reluctance to delegate responsibility, but there's always often not always, but oftentimes a reluctance to delegate the authority that needed to make sure that they can accomplish the responsibility. And so it's just and that's a growing thing, that's a personal growth on the founder's part that has to happen and there are that has to be intentional.
Speaker 2:In the same way you're working to grow your business, you have to intentionally. There has to be an intentional effort to grow personally so that you grow into. You'll never have a business larger than your own personal growth is, and so I think that that's very important too, and oftentimes that's overlooked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is true, because there's times where you know, I come in and I talk to a founder typically around the series C, maybe D area where I'm like, yeah, you got here because of these people, but those people are not going to be what takes you to the next phase and sometimes that eventually turns to them, the founder right Cause there may not be. This might be the first company they've run and they might not know how to run a company at 500, 1,000 employees, 100 million, 500 million.
Speaker 1:And if they don't grow. Then they got to go, just like any other employee, unfortunately, and that's a really hard thought. So I love that you called that out, because being open-minded and growing and learning is the only way you're going to have your business be successful.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, be successful. That's right. Yeah, yeah, so on. You know we're talking about like fast growing or maybe, unfortunately, you know, some turbulence. How do you personally stay grounded and still be an effective leader when the business hits turbulence? Or hopefully the opposite it takes off faster than expected.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a believer that you have to manage your imagination and hear me out on this. Because as soon as the business starts hitting challenges and rough water and we tend to if you're the owner of the business, the founder of the business, and four to five years in, you've enjoyed good growth up until that point. But then all of a sudden let's say things out of your control the economy or, heaven forbid a pandemic should occur or something of this nature comes along, occur or something of this nature comes along. Oftentimes, people's natural reaction to that is to let their imagination create all of the scary things in their head and that creates fear and worry and anxiety. And when that overtakes somebody, you can't make good decisions, because then you start operating, you start making those decisions from a context of defense, and you can't get through rough water by playing small ball or being defensive. You've got to lean into it and work through it with a unwavering belief that you will get through this, I will accomplish this, I'll go over it, I'll go under it, I'll go around it, I'll figure this out. So I will go through it. And that's within the control of the individual to be able to control your thought, your imagination and so forth.
Speaker 2:Not only is it critical for you, but you've got a team of people that are looking to you, and the last thing they want to see when things get choppy is that they look to their leader and their leader's freaking out and getting scared and worried and so forth. And so what do they do? They say, well, maybe I need to go find a different job. And those are the very people you need to help you lean in and work through that time. So I think one of the ways you stay grounded is you control your thoughts, and what I do to help do that is I plan every morning time that is just for me and my own reflection, and I think through and I lean on mentors and authors that I've turned to at time for my own personal development. And then I'm a person of faith and so I spend time in prayer and I turn to scripture, and those things give me confidence that I can work through whatever challenge comes along, and so oftentimes it didn't always turn out exactly the way you thought it was going to.
Speaker 1:Rarely ever does actually right, rarely ever does.
Speaker 2:But you know, in every part of one of those experiences I look back six months or a year later and realize why that was so important, because of the growth that it caused. And had that not happened, it wouldn't have made the company or myself as strong as I was. So it's a combination of controlling thoughts, but largely centers around that morning reflection time that I planned.
Speaker 1:It's on my calendar every morning, so nice it's an important part and it also could be like you know it's if you look back and you go oh, because of that turbulence, that hardship, we ended up pivoting and maybe offering a different type of product or different type of services, or maybe recognize that we weren't targeting the right audience and we found out it was actually a different audience that we need to go after. And it could be a pivotal moment where you take that hardship, you learn from it, you pivot and now you're in a better place than you would have ever gotten yourself to without going through that.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. That's why you look back and you go man, that turns out that was one of the best things that ever happened. And the thing that puzzles me and I've had these experiences, I'm sure you and people in your audience have as well these experiences I'm sure you and people in your audience have as well what puzzles me is the next time we come across the challenge and we will we are knee jerk. Reaction is to think, oh my gosh, the sky is falling again, without realizing that. Remember the last time this happened. It turned out to be a great thing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then leaning into that so yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm actually dealing with something right now where it's exactly the same thing and I'm like, okay, I have trust that actually, as hard as this is, I'm going to get through it and I'm going to be coming out on better for it. And I know that because I experienced it in the past and I have faith as well and I just know that that, you know, doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and do nothing. I'm going to still work and push through it, but I have a belief in myself and the things that I can control. That is going to get me through it and be better for it.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to kind of pick a little bit of your experience. What's a leadership move that worked brilliantly in your past experience at one stage of growth but doesn't work? You tried it again, but it didn't work because the company was a different area of growth.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it has to come down with how well you work with personnel and your team.
Speaker 2:One of the things that when we started and our company was relatively small at the time, with a smaller team, I could pretty much have everybody on that team kind of report directly to me yeah, yeah, and and while it doesn't didn't really fit into the kind of the general structure of what you learn in management or things like that, because I was such a central part in the formation of the company, everybody that I brought on I hired personally and because of that they all felt like they worked for me and as the company grew I had to change that.
Speaker 2:And then it's like picking one of your children, you know I mean. So I had to form a leadership team. I had to reduce the number of people that would report to me directly and, in doing so, put them in charge of other people that felt like would report to me directly and, in doing so, put them in charge of other people that felt like they worked for me directly. And that was a challenge because there had to be a lot of communication, a lot of talk and a lot of assurance that I'm not diminishing your importance to the company. I'm restructuring so that the company can now move kind of another phase and grow from that, and then I began to divest myself of some of that authority and responsibility, put it into the leadership team so as each of those departmental areas started to grow, they did the hiring.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And until we got people that were on the team that I'd never met, until they showed up for work and I wasn't involved in the interviewing or the hiring and I'd have a department head call me and say, do you want to interview this person? And I said, no, they're working for you. Why would I want to interview this person? And I said, no, they're working for you. Why would I want to interview them?
Speaker 2:You know, you now, on the same, on the same hand, you've got to be responsible for this decision, so take the ownership in it.
Speaker 2:And so that's an example of how we had to adjust and change things as we go along. And you know, again, it was like one of those things that gosh, I should have done this like five years ago. So it really was such an improvement to begin to build and I think it was not just the workflow, I think it was empowering people with ownership in particular areas that began to make things work better and be more productive and faster. Decisions could be made quicker and the financial management went better, because now each of them had their own budgets that they had to manage and by taking the overall company budget and dividing it up in these departmental areas, then they manage those and we managed our budget on a monthly basis. So every month we would have a financial meeting and we sit down and go through budgets and everybody would have to come back and explain they're either over or under and make the adjustments on a monthly basis. So we never missed a target at the end of the year because it was broken down and managed individually and monthly.
Speaker 1:So both of those- One game at a time will win you the prize at the end of whatever sports analogy you want to toss into that. I think it's really important to call out. I've seen this happen so many times. It is hard as the founder to make that change and because you're invested in all the individuals you've brought on and you don't want anyone to like feel left out or that you know, you don't want to lose them too Like.
Speaker 1:there's also that like if I layer them, will they like to leave, and so the communication is really important. My first step that I always recommend founders to take is take the people out of the equation. Let's just look at a blank screen and let's talk about roles and duties and what roles and duties should be reporting to you and what lower level or what next level roles should be reporting to that level.
Speaker 1:And let's talk about it from like just titles and duties, and then we look at the people and who are the people that can be slated into the different boxes and then we can discuss how to communicate, because then it kind of takes out that personality of like, oh you know, I've known this person. This person blood, sweat and tears is the reason why I'm where I'm at today. If I layer them, they're going to leave. I don't want them to leave. It takes away that like emotional decision, because now you're talking about what is the business need to grow, and then who are the people we have that we can slot in there? What are the gaps that we need to hire for? Who are the people left? How do we manage them? Is there another area I can find to keep them?
Speaker 1:or unfortunately time for them to go. Is there another area I can find to keep them or is it unfortunately time for them to go? And that is, I think, one of the things I see founders struggle the most with in building their business up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, especially founders who care about people. Yeah, I mean because you know, which is always a good thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, because not everybody is going to be best suited in skills and capability 10 years into the business, depending on its growth curve, as was needed in the very beginning and it is a very difficult thing. I personally was fortunate enough that from the very beginning, because I was starting with such a small group, from the very beginning I emphasized the importance of personal development. In other words, I want you to commit every year to not just showing up and working your 40-hour week, but I want you to commit every year to grow in your skills and capability, knowing in general where we wanted to go, having a vision for what the company was going to be, and those I would say 90% of the folks really committed to that and today hold positions of importance and management that they would have never thought, probably in the beginning. But because I modeled and emphasized the importance of if you want more money and more responsibility, you're going to have to have more skills and more capability.
Speaker 2:And and so most of them did those that didn't jive with that. They took themselves out. You know I didn't have to go to them and say I'm sorry, you know you're a slug on the wall and you're not. You know you're not contributing, so I've got to replace you. Most of them just started feeling not a part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and so they chose to move on, which is great, I mean, for them. I mean why no one wants to work in an environment where you feel I mean why no one wants to work in an environment where you feel incapable and not interested in developing and growing with the company. So I actually one of them in particular comes to mind I encouraged him. You know it was. It came down to the fact that I was either going to have to fire him or he was going to quit either going to have to fire him or he was going to quit. So I had a lengthy discussion with him to talk to him why it was in his best interest to resign. Yeah, it was because if you'll resign, I will be one of your biggest advocates in a reference and referral.
Speaker 2:And he'd been with us about five years and so it wasn't like he was going to be viewed as jumping. But I said you're going to be able to count on me to really speak highly of your capabilities if you knew. And plus, you don't want to get fired. I mean, no one wants to get fired. So and he, he said let me think about it and came back the next day and thanked me and then submitted his resignation. He submitted a two week notice. I said no, no, no, no, no. You're going to go 30 day notice because I want to pay you for 30 days and during then you'll have a little bit more time to look for a different job and you know, if you treat people like they are valuable then, I think that you know, to this day we've still got a good relationship, and that was 15, 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:And I love that example too, because so many managers, no matter what level, you have a direct report that isn't the right fit, isn't working out, isn't performing at the level. You need to just have that open conversation. I mean, sometimes I coach managers like just go and ask them how are they feeling about their role and their productivity and what they're producing?
Speaker 1:and where they feel like they're at. And so many times I come back and say I can't believe it. Like they, they admitted they're not happy, they don't like what they're working on. And then that opens up a conversation like well, maybe this isn't the right place for you. Should we start talking about an exit strategy for you on your terms? Right, and it gives them. It gives the employee the power they need to make that decision, which you know.
Speaker 1:Maybe people are listening like well, why do I care about that? You've kept the person on for two extra weeks that you had to pay for. Well, you care about it for more than one reason, but one is I mean, if you're going to really talk, you know nuts and bolts here. You don't have unemployment taxes rising as you terminate people. That's one area of cost savings that most people don't really look at because most finance teams just put it in the cost of burden and you know you're not seeing that rise up or down. But two, it's also your employer branding.
Speaker 1:It's if you are a person that does value people, you're showing that and news is going to get out. That person is going to talk. If they're going to talk to people internally, they're going to talk to people externally and that's going to get out and be a more positive experience for those that are left, right, that are still working with you, like, oh wow, they really treat this person really well when it was time for them to go. And you know, I value that and I appreciate that and I'm more now engaged and loyal to this team and this company. Right, and you know, maybe there is somebody that person talks about that becomes an employee for you in the near future too. So, yeah, I truly believe the way you you interact with people. It comes back tenfold usually.
Speaker 2:Yep, and everything you do, especially as a leader or a founder in a leadership position, is in front of an audience.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And everybody's paying close attention.
Speaker 1:Oh, especially in the social media world. I mean, how many times do you see someone share an email nowadays, or a Slack, or our teams or whatever right when, if it's in written communication, you can. You can guarantee if that employee is pissed off, social media is going to have a way of seeing it somehow, some way.
Speaker 2:So you got to be careful.
Speaker 1:Well, John, I feel like we could talk about this all day long, but as we wrap up today, any last final thoughts or tips or tricks you want to share with the audience.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that my advice is to people that are working through issues like we've been talking about is to lean into it, and what I like to tell people or suggest to people is just start, start moving in the direction you want to be.
Speaker 2:Start moving in the direction you want to be, and you're not going to necessarily be perfect in your efforts, and I think a lot of us are reluctant to make a decision or to go in a direction until we've got all the information and all the details. And I want to know everything about it and I want to be perfect. Just don't, don't do that. The learning is in the doing. So, for instance, out of today's meeting, decide that tomorrow morning you're going to get up an hour early and just spend some thought time, time with you, get out a piece of paper and just start talking to yourself as your own advisor and thinking through the problems, and you'll find that, that clarity that can come from that, if you do it every morning now for a week, just commit to a week and do it every morning, but start tomorrow morning, and I think that you'll find, if you'll do it for a week, you'll do it for the next year.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I love that, and if you're not a writer like I'm not a, writer, I don't like to write.
Speaker 1:You'll do it for the next year. Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1:And if you're not a writer, like I'm not a writer, I don't like to write, you can do, you know, video or not video, but audio, right, you can do your audio yeah uh, you can even use ai to help you, you know, narrate off of things or even just consume it and then eventually you could have ai give you some analysis of what you've been thinking for the past couple of weeks. What are the yeah, yeah, well, I love that. I'm definitely going to take that opportunity to make that change in my life and appreciate your time. I hope the audience has taken away a couple of different tidbits and thank you, audience, for joining us today. We look forward to seeing you on the next podcast. Until then, have a great day.
Speaker 1:That's a wrap for today's episode of Scaling with People. If you got value from this conversation, do me a favor, share it with someone building something big. And, hey, I'd love to hear your take, drop a comment, shoot me a message or start a conversation, and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss the bold, unfiltered strategies we drop every week. I'm Gwenda Raquiri, founder and CEO of Guide to HR, where we help high growth companies scale smart with people for strategies and AI powered systems that don't just keep up, they lead. If you're building fast and want your HR to move faster, head to guide to HRcom and let's talk and remember scale isn't just about speed. It's about people. Until next time, have a great one.
