It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

1. Pastor Josh Lindstrom on "Calling as Stewardship"

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 2 • Episode 1

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Calling is a fundamental aspect of fundraising and service abroad and a lot of weight is placed on it. It shows up in casting vision, persevering through difficult times, and even in building a personal budget. Frequently though, the calls we see are not thunderous, but still and small.

In Part 1 of our calling mini-series, Pastor Josh Lindstrom encourages us with his own journey into ministry as well as his counsel for those of us mired in uncertainty. Josh serves as the head pastor of Woodmen Valley Chapel in Colorado Springs. 


 Liberating Ministry from the Success Syndrome by Kent and Barbara Hughes

 Woodmen Valley Chapel

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All right, welcome back, everybody to the podcast. We are thrilled today to have with us, Josh Lindstrom from Woodman Valley chapel in Colorado Springs. Josh has been there, I believe, since 2014. But it's been in ministry for a lot longer than that. And I would say that he is easily in my top five of Canadians. Thank you. So he's part of a vibrant church in Colorado Springs, what's one of your favorite things as a means of introduction about Woodman Valley, I think that one of the things I love about serving there's at churches really is kind of chill, you can have people I think, come in and feel very welcomed, regardless of where they're coming from. And that still comes with a, you know, a pretty high regard for scripture. It's just that the church I think really navigates that, that balance between you know, what their shirts kind of say, we want to love well, and I think they do it and that makes serving, they're kind of a lot easier than then otherwise might be. Yeah. I've talked to a few people. And I've also seen this myself, but it seems like there's a real from you personally, even real contagious. Passion for missions. Where do where does that come from, from you, for you? You know, I grew up in a church in Toronto area, and like, one of their main things was like, up on the on the wall was just like, why should anyone hear the Gospel twice before everybody's heard of at once? And, and that just kind of always stuck with me. And I had kind of grown up with it. It was a real mission focused church. And so in a way, I thought that's just what we all did. I didn't realize it was all that unique. But But now, you know, rubbing shoulders with others. Not everyone has that same passion, but women certainly is all about it. Yeah, well, the the point of this podcast, I think, just to cover it for everybody real quickly is we asked Josh, to help us talk a little bit about calling as it relates to fundraising, because calling is such a fundamental element, whether you are serving abroad, whatever you're doing, as you're casting vision, as you were pushing through difficult times, even as you're working on your budget, it's so important to have an idea of what your call is. However, I feel like a lot of times people have a certain idea about what a calling looks like and what their expectation is. So I think that's part of what we're trying to get to today. So maybe first question is for you personally, tell us a little bit about your story and about how a young Josh navigated an early sense of calling. I would say I definitely thought it was going to be like when I was 18 that I was going to do like vocational ministry. But it it was sort of part and parcel of returning to the Lord throughout high school. Like, as I mentioned, I grew up in the church. But I was very kind of duplicitous by church boy when I was around church, but then outside of church, I was doing my own thing. And academically, I wasn't a strong student. And so as I was getting on in high school, it's like, what am I going to do, and my spirit wasn't at rest. I mean, I had no idea what I was going to do. And I think the Lord just kind of let me run. And, you know, hey, if without him, I wasn't gonna find peace in anything. And so it was right on my 18th birthday. And it was for me, like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna live this Christian life, I'm gonna get myself to you. And pretty much then I was like, and that probably is going to be like that vocational ministry for me. So I think the Lord had let me sort of, kind of go down all these different paths that ended up being dead ends, and then really kind of laid it on my heart that this is what I was going to do. And I haven't, I haven't looked back since. So it felt kind of like you had some latitude to explore. But at the end of the day, yeah. What did that feel like, when when you were making that choice? Was it like, 100% clarity, or it was a guy? I got to know, you know, with great respect in my profession. Like I always thought that pastors were, it was sort of like a lame dorky profession. You know, I never wanted to see myself in that, in that. And so it was really like, I think, as we talked about calling, I think the thing that gets lost is everyone's called to follow. You know, like Jesus said that if, you know, anyone would come after me, that, you know, he's got to deny himself take up the cross, which is a willingness to die and follow. And that's for any follower of Jesus. Not just the ones who not just like it's not like I think But there's certain ones that have like, they're called Christians, and then they're just nominal can choose their own adventure Christians. And so for me, I think that willingness to finally relent and say, I'm yours. That was the time when I'm like, and it's going to be, it's going to be vocationally. And I don't think that that's, you know, a mandatory part of falling. But for me, that is what it was. Yeah. Yeah. When you made that decision, How was that received by those around you, your family, friends? It was funny, there was a little bit of the and if my parents were to listen, they would probably still deny it. But like there was, maybe you should have like a backup career. You know, like, just in case that ministry thing doesn't work for you. And again, now, I think they would Oh, no, we didn't say that. But they, they said it enough that like, with our kids, we were conscious about I never want to give that impression. I certainly had some affirmation from some ministry, friends, like youth pastor in my life was really critical. To me that was really affirming and could see certain gifts and gave, you know, a vote of confidence for them. But yeah, it's it was something that played out over time, like that step of faith to do it. And I think my parents would now say, like, for sure, it was a great call. Sure. But truth and time walk hand in hand, where you get to see it, I think there's going to be a measure of a step of faith, when you enter into anything that you believe Lord's calling you to, and it might not always be universally accepted. Absolutely. Well, let's get into the word a little bit. And maybe just look at some examples. Because I think when we, when we think about the word and and biblical examples of calling, I think a lot of us gravitate towards those, those high profile, Moses, burning bush examples, or Saul, on his road to Damascus, but maybe you can give us some other insights, and help us explore a bigger array of ways that we see calling play out biblically. You know, I think the Moses the saw, I mean, I think those are good examples, then they're in Scripture, and God can certainly do it. But I just don't think they're normative examples that everybody should be expecting that. And if God does it for somebody, and maybe it's on a burning bush, maybe it's a car on fire, whatever it could be today, they should, they should listen to it. But I think way more often than not now, given that we're all called the Great Commission, again, is for everybody. So we're all called to go. We're all called to be a part of that. If we're a follower of Christ. So then the question becomes, how do I best help. And one of the things that I kind of love is at the beginning of the gospel of Luke, here, you've got this guy, and the end, he actually says, you know, he's writing to this Theopolis, dude. And Luke says, I've been following these events for some time. And any, he actually says, In the Bible, it seemed good to me. All right, to write you an orderly account, so we have the Gospel of Luke. And then we have x, that I think all of us, that's where we get the Christmas story that everybody loves, they think of everything in. And it came about by a guy saying, it seems good to me, I've had proximity, I've witnessed this, it seemed good for me to write this for you. And I think that's actually much more of a normative experience of someone looking at their availability, their abilities, and their wiring and to say, like, Hey, I could do this. This is how I'm going to try to help fulfill that great commission. Because sometimes I think people will use the word calling to get out of something like I didn't have a burning bush experience, right? And I'm like, okay, like, what if that if we want to, if we want to strictly define calling that narrow, you didn't have that? Fine, you're still called to be a steward. So you still have to give an account for how you're going to steward the gifts you've given to them. Now, I would never define calling that narrow. But I think that idea of looking at oneself, the gifts and talents that God has given one, and how can I be using that? And I think that oftentimes the Lord is like, I think we'd all say that Luke should have written that right. Like it worked out. Awesome. All in favor that he in our favor. And you see that again, when where's it an X like 15? There right in that letters to what the Gentile Christians have to do they have to do they have to follow Mosaic Law. And what did they say again? It seems good. It seems good to the apostle, for the church. It's good for us to do this. And I think the more often, we would ask ourselves does this, could I do this? We know that God's for us. Yeah, entering into these things. And I think too many people are keeping themselves on the sidelines, because they're waiting for a burning bush, waiting for something that happened once in Scripture, you know, a grand total of once, right? Yeah, Josh, I really love the way you're articulating that because I think, yeah, I think people can sometimes use that to diminish their own calling, you know, to think, Well, I haven't been called to something because I don't have this experience that this other person did, or whatever. But I also think that people can sometimes think that calling is something they have to articulate as some sort of a validation for them. And what I mean is, you know, in the fundraising context, people are sharing their calling or sharing their conviction, sharing what they feel like the Lord is leading them into, with other people asking those people to partner with them in that. And so I think sometimes they can get just slightly off track by thinking of calling as this kind of validation for why somebody should partner with them. Oh, because I can articulate a calling really clearly, or this is the logical progression, the angle, you know, whatever you want to call it, that I think that they can lose sight of what you're highlighting, which is just calling is this beautiful mixing of what God wants to accomplish in the world and the giftings, and the desires and the abilities and the opportunities he's given you, and then giving you the freedom to step into what He desires to do in the world in a very unique way. Would you say? That's fair? Oh, absolutely. I think that it talks about calling a stewardship a little bit. If we had a guy in, say, our church, who every time we talked about kids ministry, he's like, I hate kids. And if he's like, I, like, I just can't stand them. And then he came and told me that, like, I'm gonna go, and I feel called to run an orphanage in some place, right? Like, that's unique, right? Because you're like, what changed? You didn't like kids, but now you want to spend every day with kids in another context? Like it wouldn't. It doesn't seem good. But when you have someone that's like, has a compelling vision for, for ministry, and it adds up? Well, now it actually becomes part of my calling my stewardship of what God has entrusted into me, then they get to, like, I think too many times, as you said, like, people want to try to get validation for their calling, instead of you're trying to raise the money, throw back on that person. This is what I'm doing. I'm giving you an opportunity to live out the Great Commission, would you see this as a way that you get to participate? Because you're not going, I'm gonna go? And how are you using your time and talents and what God's given you? And I think me, I think I'd be a worthy investment. Now, I know, we're not that's not maybe how you'd finesse it. But I think sometimes they have a little that holy swagger that I'm going to be the one going, Yeah, and to not feel like your hat in hand, every single follower of Christ has to be a part of that great commission. Right? Yeah. And how do you get those people to see the wisdom in the sense, and the way that God's ordained the steps of your life and providentially put you into a place that now you can be a part of it? And then to invite people into that story, I think is really compelling. I think sometimes people have an issue of, I don't even I don't feel worthy to ask for funding. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it's not about whether or not you're worthy. He's worthy of that. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's hard to to look into people's minds a little bit or hearts. But would you say, possibly, they're, they're worried about getting it wrong. They're worried about blowing it like, Oh, I miss God's call from my life. And they're just kind of so so focused on if I turn left, when I'm supposed to turn right. I'm gonna blow it. Yeah, people do that a lot. I think for sure. Almost as if they think like God's call or God's will for their life is some narrow path or some dots that they have to like land and jump. Yeah. Like, what is God's will for your life? It's your sanctification. Like, God wants us to live a holy life. And so there's this fence around a whole bunch of decisions we could make, like, should I murder someone? No, that's outside of God's call for my life. But I'd be a dentist. I wouldn't want to be but I could be. That's not something morally wrong to be a dentist. But I think if someone's refering to a decision to be a dentist or to be something else, and then like, well, if I'm a dentist I can maybe make more money and have more stuff? Well, that would be wrong. But that's not how God wires it. I sometimes find it humorous if someone's like, I'm really wrestling with going overseas for Kingdom ministry. And I don't know if God wants me to do it. Or you fast forward until your death? Do we really think that someone's going to come before God Almighty one day and be like, I just wanted to share the gospel and thought I could go and have Gods say, actually, I was really hoping you'd sell hot tubs. Like, does that make sense? Right? Like someone who's willing to go someone who's willing to deny themselves and to put their life in the hands of Romans 12 want to be a living sacrifice? Is there really a world in which the Lord's like, I can't believe that you chose China? Right? I was thinking Mongolia, right? You dropped the ball. You know, that just does not seem in any way consistent with what you know, Jesus call was to write. And I think for someone to be able to give an account for it. Like why? Why me? I think there's a ton of people can come up with a ton of reasons why it could be them and why the Lord's putting this on their heart, because of the gifts and talents he gave. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it funny how people sometimes worry about calling as if like, what if God calls me to do something I hate? What God made. We forget that God stacked the deck God made us Yeah. Yeah, he did make us and I, I think that there actually can be, you know, in in different places in different manifestations of the body. I think that there can be this kind of pushing away from desire, thinking that desire can't be compatible with with God's good, right that it has to the contrary, but but there is actually a lot of room for him to be working in those desires, and for him to use those desires towards his purposes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's just maybe sum up some of your advice. Let's say that somebody came to you from your congregation, and they're struggling, they're praying, Lord, just tell me where to go what to do. And I'll do it. And I think these questions come from a good place. Just wanting to please God. So it's not surprising when we get frustrated when God doesn't give us that, that clear arrow and it's still kind of vague, but maybe just simply how would you shepherd somebody who's wrestling with that kind of clear sense of calling? Or that maybe somebody that feels stuck in or is kind of immobilized? Because they paralyzed even? Yeah. Because they don't really know what to do with themselves? Yeah, you guys have those people a lot? I think, I think on the front end, I wouldn't say a lot. But yeah, that's that's an issue to see. Like, as we're talking to them, not having a clear sense of, of like, oh, I don't know if I should go to a specific people group. I don't know if I should do a specific country. So I don't know if I I don't have that clear, sharp, vivid idea. So should I even do this? Right? And why I asked for the clarification is I think there's I don't run into a lot of people who are like, unwilling to do anything, I just have no idea. And God won't tell me. Yeah, like that absolute piece of potty Stape it. I think there's people who sometimes they feel like they're feeling the need to do something. And they don't know where when you think of the apostle Paul, and journey that the Holy Spirit took him on, you know, when he's going like, like, before he got to trial, like using the spirit was leading them and it was like a 400 mile walk. They did before the Apostle Paul had that vision of the Macedonian man telling him to come over. So obviously, from the start, like Paul felt the spirit was leading him, in literally, in this case, bought like walking an awful long distance, before they got to the Macedonian call. And so if there's someone who's saying to me, like I feel, I want to join, like, I want to go, I just don't have a people group. Like, part of me would be like, just pick one now. You don't have to sign on for the next 87 years, right? Get get walking, get going and get like, if you're willing to go, I sometimes I'm like, Hey, let's, let's get you I remember talking to a couple, and I had this great plan for their life to go to like Jordan, somewhere in the Middle East. And they came back with Mongolia. And I was like, for real? Like, really? And they had it's way different. And but as they started to engage in that willingness, then I think clarity came. And so if someone's saying that they're willing to do something, then my encouragement is start going. Take a step because God can refine that vision God can refine and get clarity See, to specifics as you go. But I don't think he always does that on the front end. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just a moment ago, we were talking about how someone's desire could lead them into calling for a particular way that the Lord wants them to engage his world and accomplish his purposes. When do you think though, that that can kind of get unbalanced in, in the fact that sometimes people feel like, they should only do things that they love? So how do you hold the tension of leaning into the desires, but also not being stuck in and feeling like I can really only do this if I feel a certain way about it? Or if it's my passion or follow some heart? Yeah, and I in I say it's a tension because I think there should be desire and passion there. But you know, especially maybe in our current cultural moment, that can be overemphasized, maybe to a fault. So I guess how would you help people clarify how to hold that tension in their calling and in what they pursue? I think that you know, your way of saying it was a lot more gracious than I sometimes can cynically get get with with the issue. You know, Jesus didn't love the cross. It wasn't it wasn't enjoyable. The apostle Paul, when he talks about the lashings, the beatings, the shipwrecks, he would not have said like, Oh, that was the highlight of my job. Like, I mean, it was literally in every sense of the word. Excruciating ly difficult. So we got to be careful, God does call us to hard things when when Moses, our burning bush guy, he actually obeyed, goes back. And things literally became more difficult for the Israelites, right? Because he did what he was supposed to do. So good to have this sense that I need to be loving it. I don't think always has biblical support. The way I would sort of switch the question for people sometimes is, I don't know, if the emphasis needs to be as much on am I doing something I love? As much as I'm not being a good steward if I'm doing something I suck at? Yeah, if someone's not good at something, I would say that, then you're not being a good steward. You know, I wouldn't make a very good French teacher. I don't speak French, I don't have a particular affinity for the French like that, that would just seem so out of left field. And so if I said, that's what I'm going to do, I would be ineffective for a long time. So I think the issue is to find the things that like God has wired me for, which more often than not, we do feel a sense of satisfaction when we can do something. Well, sure. Typically, if we have some affinity for something or some ability, we will have times that we find joy and satisfaction and could actually say we love it. But that's far again, way different than saying I only should be doing something or God only wants me to be doing something if I love it, because that's just not biblically supported, I don't think, right? I think what you were saying is really helpful, because it actually holds up another tension that those in fundraising I think need to hold in that we are called into things that will be hard. And that might be long suffering, it might not be attractive, and it might be difficult. And that might mean that we're doing exactly what we're supposed to be. Or we can come into things that we don't have aptitude for or skill for. And they can be hard and they can be difficult and they can be not moving forward. And it might just be that that's that's not actually the fit. And I think that for people that are fundraising, they can be very quick when the funding isn't coming in, when it's not going well to assume, Oh, I wasn't supposed to do this. This isn't for me, I'm not built for this, all these kinds of things, when in reality, it might just be hard, you know, moving into this kind of work, there's a lot of oppression. And just because it takes you you know, several months, maybe even years to find your funding, that doesn't mean that it's not the call for you. But it does mean that it might be difficult, easy to do. You have this false notion that if God wanted me to do something, it would be easier, right? Like God, God shows me his blessing on something by by by snow plowing the obstacles out of the way. And as Josh said, we should know that that's not the case from looking at the Bible. Right, Moses, nothing about his experience was like, oh, yeah, this is all working out perfectly. Right? Well, I mean, I think there's like a perverted prosperity gospel. Like I think we should remove the idea of, you know, like, we got to pray for open doors. I mean, because before you get more of an idea, they were kicking more doors down then they were finding them open the enemies not for this. Not going to make it easy. And if you think of out, like Samson numerically was pretty successful. Yeah, but but incredibly unfaithful. Yeah, in Jeremiah was really spot on and didn't have a lot to show for it. And if you knew the life of both those guys, and you got both of their letters or they want to sit down with you and talk about their work, who would you be more interested to get behind? And I think sometimes we in fundraising for for those in ministry, they fall into this trap that it's numbers, right but people actually don't people want to give to a person. And they're going to be looking at your your life and the way that you've treated them before and your faithfulness and your passion. And that is what is contagious? Not simply because the Bible had lots of guys that were seemingly and Gaza rockin it, but we wouldn't want to endorse. Right? Right? Yeah. Nobody wants to be like Samsung, maybe we can just sum everything up here. So if you were with somebody who's in the midst of a big life decision, very simply like what what tools? Or what lens would you give him or her to kind of help process that decision? Again, if the blank slate typically like in a perfect world? So they're like, I'm just up for anything? Then I would say, Have you thought about going? Yeah, I think that's the easiest place to begin with that, you know, the old like, I'm old enough. You know, Keith may be the exception that we say. Like, we're all called to be a part of it. How do you see yourself being involved in that? And what might the Lord have been doing in you to lead you to a point to be extra useful in one area? And how do you see you know, we want to have a be consistent with scripture. So a call that gets me to Jamaica, because I just want to chill is not like a consistent with scripture call? Is it consistent with what people know of you? And I think we got to be careful, like mom might not like it. And that's okay, we can have an outlier. But like, if everybody in your entire life thinks it's a bad idea, I do think you should pause. Yeah, if everybody thinks it's a bad idea, but none of them know Jesus, then I would weigh that differently. Yeah, but who are some people in your life? What What are they saying about this? And what about giving it a shot? You know, if you don't have any reasons why you can't be doing this. And you have real opportunity to do it. What about exploring it? Sure. And and seeing what the Lord can do? Yeah. That's great. Well, as we wrap up, knowing that most of our listeners are somewhere in the process of fundraising, either thinking about it, or they're in the thick of it, is there anything that you'd like to just address them with anything you'd like to say to them to encourage them? Maybe it sounds cliche, and you know, maybe this goes against what you guys do who do this more often than me know that it's poor. But I would want to say to someone, like you're not asking for money as much as you're giving people an opportunity. Sure, yeah, we would wholeheartedly agree. You're not begging, we're all called to be a part of this. And there are people out there who got has last, and they are not going and they know that they don't go. And they know that their part is to get behind. And there are people who maybe are not as financially blessed, but they want to be a part and they might not give you a ton financially, but their prayers are going to avail much that you would never see. Right. And I would just be welcoming people in to this this great commission work that we're all part of, and to not grow weary in doing good. You know, and to keep at it, because ultimately, though, I think we make money, big thing the ministry has called you to that's that's the challenge. This part is a part that we can get through. And I think the evil one if we can get our eyes to focus on the cash, right? He's thrilled. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, because you are in the position of pastoring a church, I just wonder if there's any encouragement you would give people just from the perspective of trying to find churches to come alongside them to see the value in having a church partner with them, in addition to just individual people that they might know. Anytime you can have a relational connection, it's better if you don't have the relational connection, to try to foster that, like the cold call or the letter doesn't always, you know, I don't find that as effective as someone getting in front and sharing their art. Yeah, but I do think that more and more churches are looking forward for real relationship in it. If they really want to partner, I don't you know, the circles I run in, they're not looking to just cut checks and put a pin on the map. Yeah, absolutely. I hear you saying it's not it's not about sponsorship or just, you know, being able to say we support someone, it's actual relationship. And I'm not sure if this is fair to say, maybe you can correct me if it's not Josh, but you said that in your church context, there is a high degree of value for missions for global missions, and that you realized that, you know, from rubbing shoulders with others, that's not necessarily something that is as prominent in other church settings. And I guess I would just say, you know, to our listeners, it might be fear that that value might come to a church through your pushing and relationally. Right, that that value might be brought to a church by you pushing in and seeking to be known and seeking to know in and giving people access to see what God is doing in that context. Versus are only looking for churches that already have that vision, it might be an opportunity to, to share that vision. It's about you have to be known. It has to be relational. Absolutely, yeah. Good. Well, as we wrap up here, Josh, any any recommendations, maybe a book or a website, or anything else for people who might want to just do a deeper dive into this topic of calling, or even understanding calling a stewardship? Yeah, I think the thing I would encourage people to do is if they're wrestling is to talk to people who are doing some of the things that they would see themselves, maybe they're exploring or wondering about, and asking humans and more often than not, those people have not, they are going to share a story. That was not maybe what they were praying would happen. One, like, as you talk to people, they're gonna say, like, I can't imagine doing anything different. But I did not have that burning bush, and it was Labor us and it was difficult. And then the other thing I would recommend that kind of the flip side, maybe there was a book that was instrumental in my life by Kent Hughes called liberating ministry from the success syndrome. Yeah. I've heard of that. And, and that is, I think, a fascinating thing for what God's look what God values, faithfulness. prayerfulness. It's not what what we sometimes put on ourselves, whether it's the human success, the counting and numbers someone going into, and I'm like, Hey, let's let's kind of dispense with this, like bean counter mentality. And you're really making yourself available for what the Lord wants to do in your life. It goes a long way, and the spirits with you and he's pulling for you. Let's not let the evil one better confused. And for me, that book was like a game changer when I was really like about to quit. So I think I have it actually in my library. I'm gonna pick it back up now. Yeah, that's a good recommendation. It sounds great. Yeah, I can't wait to look into it. Okay, final question. Heather. Final question before? All right, Josh. So you have $10,000 that you have to give away today, you have five seconds to decide who or what do you give it to? And why? Well, there's a particular organization that I have some affinity for, that I don't want to make other organizations feel bad by not mentioning them. But they would get it pretty quick. All right, fair enough. Without mentioning their name, is there a why? There's something you respect about what they do. Because I think that they have a good handle on some of these things that we've been talking about. They celebrate the wins. But they also were very forthright about the valleys. And it's a place of authenticity, where they're trying to do good work. And it's it's team based, and, and supportive. And I think that's the kind of thing that I would want to get down money, give it away and the money I have and the time I have to give it to them soon. Awesome. Well, we are so grateful that you've joined us today. Thank you again, so much. I know our listeners are really going to be blessed in it just really stopping to think about calling a stewardship and kind of put off some of those wrong ideas and I hope shins yeah, I hope people are encouraged to just get out their Bible and start reading the stories of, you know, the big moments in the Yeah, yeah. The big moments and the little moments in the just the life of following Jesus. So thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks, Josh. Thank you. And if you're in Colorado Springs, and you're looking for a church, check out, Woodman valley.org. Yeah, we'd love to have you Yeah. Wonderful. All right, you got it. All right. Thanks, Josh. Appreciate it.