4. Patty S. on "Striving, Stagnant, or Surrendered"

In fundraising, sometimes we can settle into two extremes: striving or stagnant. Our guest today has been there and understands the magnet-pull of these tendencies when the pressure is on. 

Patty has years of experience as a support-based worker and member care provider. She is professionally trained and certified in coaching, and understands how to motivate people to overcome their obstacles. You might want to grab a pen and take notes on how to move away from striving or stuck and, instead, experience the invitation to surrender and trust.

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Transcript

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All right, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we are thrilled to welcome Patti, whom Heather and I have known for many years between the two of us. And we're just going to call her Patti for now based on some of the places that she's worked. So, there are two extremes that generally that we tend to see in the coaching world. And honestly, both of them are a little bit troubling. The first one is a lack of action. And this could be connected to drive, or fears or an expectation that if God wants me to get funded, it'll happen. And the other extreme on the other side is someone who is extremely driven, who sets aggressive goals, but doesn't really invite God into the process. And this person is going to pull up their bootstraps and just get her done, like every other task in their lives. So quick question, Heather. Which one would you rather work with? Ooh, Andy, that is a good question. I think I would initially say that, honestly, I would rather work with either if they're teachable. But I guess if I had to choose, I would probably lean towards a person with a lack of action. Interesting, because I think they're probably going to be more aware of their need for change. versus someone who is extremely driven, has aggressive goals, highly capable, high capacity. Someone actually think much like, a younger version of me might not be as quick to see, oh, something might need to change in my strategy, because it can, it can, unfortunately, seem to produce a lot of success, even though it's not necessarily always healthy. Interesting. And I feel like I would go the other way, really tell me Yeah, I would rather work with somebody who is naturally just kind of driven. And then they're gonna get the things done that they need to get done. And then we can kind of reorient along the way, philosophically, if we need to. But I don't have to worry about are they actually going to do their job? Hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, very different. And actually, I'm about to give you more specifics on our special guest today. But Patty, as I'm getting ready to intro you, would you like to answer that question? Which one of those two types of workers would you prefer to work with? Well, my thought was, like, those two people can exist in the same body. I probably lean more towards the driven side naturally, but when I'm overwhelmed, I can get very apathetic and be like, well, whatever, whatever happens, happens. And then I've also been in places where, like, I've procrastinated or didn't focus on something I really should have. And then all of a sudden it kicks in. And I'm so full of guilt, and shoulds. And I wished I had done that, and I ought has been that and yeah, so I can see that same person existing in this body. Both of them, though, I'd love to say this about it, both of them. It is prime ground, for training for what working on the field can look like throwing in their dependency on him. It doesn't matter either extreme, we can do nothing without him. Right. And so that training of dependency on God, yeah. Both, both of those extremes, need to understand that and grow in that. And just that process of walking by faith, leaning into community, engaging in your work wholeheartedly, and then leaving the results to God. What more do we want from people to grow and learn in that? It's a great answer. We did not plan that. We did not. And I tell you what, I'm excited about our conversation. Yeah. Tell us about patty. Yeah. Let me tell you about patty. All right. So Patti and her husband have actually served for over 25 years in the overseas context. And in addition to that, Patty has done individual coaching. She has worked in member care alongside her husband, and she currently works in transition support. She is a certified coach and is passionate about equipping and encouraging others in their work. Patti, is there anything else you would like to share about yourself? Well, I'm also a Nana, little boy, yes, you are a recent Nana to the second, right. Yes, yes. Yeah. It's probably my favorite role in life right now. That's great. All right. Well, as we get going, Patti, we would love to just hear a little bit about your story. What set you on this particular and unique life path? Oh, that's a big question. The short answer, a commitment to follow God leading I would say and I'm also wired for adventure. And I think I inherited some of that from my dad. But my parents were like they were true followers and wholehearted and their belief that we OBEY and FOLLOW wholeheartedly. And so when I felt that nudge, and actually Sam and I felt in different times and grew into our understanding of what that meant to go overseas, and Sam as your husband, yeah, yes, yeah. Good clarification there and BTS fan this my husband, I tell you what, it's been a life full of privilege. That's the word I would use of being in places and meeting people and being in places of influence and impact and dark places. I, I can't imagine a better life to live. So So Patti, let's dive into your role a little bit with member care. Can you kind of unpack for us? Again, not in not exhaustively but maybe just what's a short philosophy? Off? Remember care for you? That's a great question. Because member care can mean a lot of different things and different organizations and even within an organization, but for me, it's the process of coming alongside people, pointing them to Jesus, pointing them take him as the source for all they need, is helping people process losses and disappointments, even victories. It's the privilege of walking alongside people who are just human, we're we're all but dust, we all need help. We all need. companionship, we all need those little bursts of encouragement at different times. And it's a privilege to do that to invest in people that way. I feel like it's the role that's more like the coach on the sideline, rather than being on the court shooting the basket. But I feel the victory just as much as the one who is the star player and hit the winning shot. When they succeed. Yeah, you said they're all everybody's human. So you mean that being on the mission field? Does it make somebody superhuman? Well, I don't know. Andy, I thought you were pretty superhuman on the field. Exactly. Yeah. I think the reason I brought that up is there seems to be and this is a little bit off topic. But I think it's important to say that there is kind of a myth of kind of like the missionary hero. Right, like, like that. You go to your home churches, and you talk to people and like, Oh, there's the missionary like that person is? Together. Yeah, they got it all together. Yeah. When in reality, like they were just as just normal, like, it just is broken. And we have just issues just like everybody. It's just an another country. Yeah. And at the same time, I feel like personally in my life, that being on the field, caused me to focus more on purpose, and be more intentional. So it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was because of who I was. It was, it was the circumstances that pushed me to walk in faith in a bigger way. That pushed me to depend on him more. So I'm hoping this is true of all of us. That life circumstances were created for us, to transform us to make us look and act and think and feel more like Jesus would if he were living our life. And for me, it's been serving in in places that didn't feel like home at first that really formed and transformed me. So you have a lot of different roles overseas in Asia. But while you were focused on member care, what were some of the most rewarding things that you experienced? Or maybe that you heard about during that season? Tell us some member care stories. Yeah, so much a member care, you can't tell. That's appropriate. Yeah. Change the names? Yeah. But I would say getting to be with people in their struggle. And kind of getting in the messiness of life with them were some of the most meaningful times for me personally, because when you get in a place that the only one that can really change anything is God. And just your role is to help create that space for God to do what only God can do. Like that is a front row seat to some pretty amazing things. And so in our different roles, we we had a lot of opportunities to invest in people. And now on, you know, this side of things, I see like the beauty of the payoff of investing in people. And so, you know, a lot of exciting things happened, a lot of fun things happen. But I, yeah, it really is about investment and people. Well, and I love that we have people like you that like getting into the messy parts of people's lives, because that's not me. Well, actually, as you were saying that I just couldn't help but think of how that is very much what our shepherd did, right? Yeah, as you look at the Gospels, you just can't help but be moved by all these times that Jesus is moving towards people in their pain or in their sorrow or their brokenness. And that's very much what came to mind as you were talking. It like we talked about joining him and what he does, then the big piece of it is, yeah, and actually, I guess, you know, the word talks about sharing in his sufferings. And I've always understood that and maybe I should understand that to be the the sufferings that came upon him himself, but I there is suffering on behalf of others, or there is an element of, of suffering that we hold in our heart in mind as we watch someone else suffering. And so I wonder if that's just another way to be invited into sharing in his sufferings, in the compassionate suffering he has for others? I think you're probably thinking of I think it might be Philippians 310, that talks about the fellowship, connected to that sharing and suffering. And yeah, I, you know, I think another another way in which people serve overseas or privileged is that you probably are exposed to more suffering than the average North American. And there, you have to develop theology of suffering. And an understanding of that, and aspect of who Jesus was, was he was a man of sorrows well acquainted with grief. And there's a danger in avoiding all sorrow and grief and suffering. Because that's an aspect of him if we're really going to be like him, and we're going to be transformed to be like him. That's part of the deal. But there's a real beauty in that, that we never walk those paths of suffering alone. He's always with us. Even when he's quiet and silent. He's with us. And there is a fellowship that, I think really unique to suffering. I love it. She's preaching to all the Enneagram sevens out there. All right. Well, Patti, can you remember your first member here meeting? And how do you feel like you have changed from that first meeting until your most recent Oh, boy, that's a long time ago. You know, I, maybe the one I remember most is my first member care meeting as the one receiving care. And the person who was providing that care had just come from a conference. And she was really excited about it. And so almost our whole conversation was about what she was learning from that conference. And that was the first year. And anybody's first year, you got some things you need to process and there was very little room for that. And so I think even those disappointments that we experienced can inform how we do something right. And so I, I was really highly motivated to learn how to be a good listener and to be a compassionate question. Asker. Yeah, so that that probably formed me more than a really great conversation with my member care person, for me, and actually, that's what motivated me to also get coach training. When I first heard about coaching. At that event. Sounds interesting. Then I read a book as like, Oh, this is how I want to be with people. Awesome. Well, Patti, we mentioned two extremes at the beginning of the show here. Can you generalize for us? In your experience? Did field workers tend to lean more towards one camp or the other, more of the kind of wait and see a more to get her done? Or maybe it was even? You have a general sense of that? Yeah, I've had experience with both. But I would say the people who stay that stick around, probably lean far more into the driven kind of personality. Yeah, and my experience, both overseas and on the side and preparing people I really think that if somebody is struggling with a lack of action, if they don't have someone attuned to them, that understands and sees what's going on this kind of helping them uncover those drives and fears and expectations, it can really be very difficult for them to ever even get to the field. That's something that that can really stick with them. And if they don't have, like I said, good coaching, someone that's walking alongside them, kind of drawing them into action, I really think that can be something that keeps him from the field. And so from that, I think I would say that, in my experience, I have seen, like Patti said, more people on the field that do fall into that second camp simply because that second camp can seem to get you a bit farther on your own effort, even though it's not necessarily healthy effort all the time. Sure. So yeah, I guess in light of that, we really feel like these two attitudes can impact fundraising. And like I said, I think that that first attitude, you know, the, the kind of immobilized, maybe discouraged, slow to take action. How, how have you seen that carry over into life, on the field, and into life and ministry? Well, I do think it's good to remember that none of us are static. So if somebody is, like, has a lack of focus, lack of action, in one season of their life doesn't mean that they're doomed to that the rest of their life, right? They're not defined. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, different seasons, like decision, fatigue is real. And then when you have someone that's preparing to go to the field, there's a lot of decisions to make. And I think one thing COVID taught us were these terms like cognitive load, or decision fatigue, surge capacity, which all have to do with our ability to get things done. And so I certainly wouldn't give up hope, someone who's struggling in their fundraising, because they might be an amazing relationship builder, when they're in person on the field. Or they might have the some giftings that really kind of blossom in a different kind of environment. But yeah, as I as they're doing that fundraising, is that kind of where they're stuck, kind of where they're at, I do think there's some things that we can do to help people who just don't seem to be able to get it done. Yeah, actually, I would really love to push into that Patty, because I know that you in coaching and member care in just being a co worker, and friend, I know that you are a person that is passionate about meeting people in a place where they're stuck and being an instrument of the Holy Spirit and kind of in kind of like helping them move forward. And so I guess, what would you say to someone who is stuck? Yeah, I would tell them to get a pre Visio coach in the mail, and that's kind of tongue in cheek, but truly, it is very hard to move out of that on your own. And, as I said earlier, like some of these things we have to do or get to do in fundraising, are such great training ground for what life on the field will look like and could look like. And that leaning into others of being teachable of being someone who leans into their community, those things are awesome. But it's hard to it's hard to do these things alone. I think when it comes to motivation, we can read a book, but information rarely generates energy, for change in action. So it's typically focused on impact on your values, those types of things that can generate the motivation to do what you need to do. And personally, I'm, I am a goal setter, if I understand the why underneath, and I know that's a little cliche, like to know your why. But there is something about understanding and connecting what you're doing with what you really value. So having a coach or someone help you stir up in you, what's important to you, what difference would it make like that, that can make all the difference in the world? And so, just digging around in like, what outcome are you looking for what the impact if you focus on those things rather than the goal of for instance, I'm focusing on being such and such percentage funded by a certain date, like, I'm sorry, that's not very motivating, right? But if I'm focusing on, I'm going to get to the place where I'm called to be, and there's people I'm going to meet them and they have an impact on, they're going to have an impact on me. Like that can be motivating. If you're thinking about, okay, your goal is to make a certain number of calls or contacts in the next month. I'm sorry, for my personality, for sure, that is not motivating at all. But if I realized that those calls are connected to finding people who will join me, in getting me getting to where I need to be to do the work I feel called to do, and there are people out there waiting for opportunities to join, in that. That's motivating to me. And so it's not just goal setting, in the sense of, this is what I need to do. Or even how I'm going to do it. But and really understanding your why why. Who am I going to impact? Who, whose life will be different? Because I've done the work to get to the place I'm going. Does that make sense? Feel? Yeah, that y is the fuel that's gonna keep it burning? Yeah, I do come across. It's funny that you say that I do come across people. And I will say they're outliers. But they are super motivated by the by like hitting goals. And I'll even it's really helpful when I have two of them. And I'll say, well, so and so is doing this well. And they'll be motivated, like, oh, no, I'm going to I'm going to do more. I'm going to I'm going to beat that. But there is danger there too. So how can this this get er done bootstrap mentality when it's transferred onto the field, in into issues of salvation, and of in people kind of getting used to the idea of being able to accomplish so much? How can that kind of taint how they do work in the field, for lack of a better word? Yeah. Someone comes to mind who was have a lot of leadership qualities, he was on our team, he was just out of college. And he had been straight A student captain is this president of this leader of that, so much success in life, and very driven. And he got to our location. And he had a tough time. Like he had trouble learning the language, other people around him were picking up the language. And he was really struggling, struggling in the work that we're doing. He just, it didn't fit who he was, or what he wanted to be in terms of vocation. And wow, watching him crash and burn. Yeah, it was a good lesson. And God is always up to something. Right. So, of course, he's interested in our wellbeing. Of course, he's interested in the work we do, but he's far more interested in our hearts. And he will either blessed or withhold things that have to do with our well being or our work or ministry, in order to get more of our hearts. And so, like that was really painful for this teammate to experience that. But like our part was to come alongside him and help them dig around in that. And understand that God might be doing something really significant in preparing you for what's next. But you cannot do what he's called you to do on your own. And this is your opportunity to learn that. This is your opportunity to just kind of dig in and say, You know what, my natural strengths, my natural wisdom, my natural abilities are never going to be enough to do what God's called me to do. Because he's called us to live by faith. And so if we're able to accomplish all of this on our own, yeah, we're probably not really doing what he's calling us to do. And it's a hard thing to balance too, because I feel like we need to be driven by this vision in this mission. But I definitely resonate with what you're saying, because after my eight years on the field, what I walked away with was an impression that Lord, it feels like you're more interested in what you're doing in me than what you're doing through me. And that makes us It kind of it's humbling, like, wow, it's like, you could have done this with anybody this could have been, there's any number of ways that you could have arranged these things that I have accomplished, to happen. And at the end of the day, this is what you wanted to teach me. Yeah. I feel like Andy, would you describe describing, there's two stories that come to mind. One is from John two, when Jesus is turning the water into wine, right? So when you think about that story, and go back and look at it, about the what was going on, is that there were servants there. Now, if Jesus can turn water into wine, did he really need the servant? That really right, but he invited them to be part of it, he invited them to fill up these water jars. And so they're filling them up. And even when they did it really well, it was still only water. And water didn't meet the need. But Jesus involvement in that story was he turned the water into wine, and really good wine that met the needs. And the part about the story that really blesses me is that it's like, this is so good, but nobody knew where the wind had come from, except the servants. And I love that story so much, because I think this is a picture of all of our work, it doesn't matter if you're overseas or wherever you live. The things that are really significant, and impactful and eternally significant. Jesus has to be involved. Or it's just plain water that we offer. Yeah, so that story, and then the story of him feeding the 5004 1000. You know, they had five loaves and two fish, it doesn't go very far in a crowd of over 5000. And yet, Jesus involvement in that made all the difference. And I feel that that's our, like, we we give all we have we give our two fish and our five loaves. That's it. That's all we have. But he's the one who multiplies it. We water we plant, he always gives the increase. That is always whose work at the end of the day. And we just have the joy and privilege of joining him in it. Amen. So what does that have to do with fundraising? You know, oh, I think that I think that has a lot to do with fundraising. Absolutely. As we've been looking at these two extremes, and maybe some of our listeners are even seeing in themselves a tendency towards, you know, hyperactivity or lethargy. Yeah, or just not really knowing what to do maybe maybe kind of being stuck as we realized, yeah, I really, I really just want to reiterate a couple of things. You've said that, that none of us are static, right? That we're not defined by, by these things. And we are complex people with a lot of complex things that affect the way we show up to the world at any given moment, right. But there's been other episodes of the podcast this season that highlight that. The other thing I really want to reiterate that you've said, before we move forward is that God is always at work. I really love that previously, you talked about how God really is intentional with with the experiences that we have. And he he is at work in those experiences. And Andy and I have been talking a lot about how fundraising is really, formation, it's a season of formation. And honestly, not even something fundraising isn't even something you do as much as it's, yeah, it's like, something that happens to you, and forms you and, and really, we think, again, as you and others have said, forms you particularly well for overseas ministry for a context where you bring your loaves, you bring your fishes, but at the end of the day, it is only God that can move in a miracle in in giving life where there is no life or bringing site where there is no site, you know. So it's just really good to remember those things, even as we're kind of talking about some of the struggles and the shadow side of how our efforts can play out in fundraising. So I guess along those lines, though, in thinking that we are all in some way, not fully prepared for what fundraising even ministry looks like, Patty, could you share with us something that you that you see, most people aren't prepared well for when they step into fundraising? Well, I probably can speak from my own experience. most easily about that, because it was a lack of understanding of what that partnership really could mean to another person. You know, I was just like, I need money to be in the place, I'm called to go. And you have money. Some pretty simple understanding of how all that works. And, yeah, I think that biblical underpinning of the partnership, and the really incredibly important part that our partners and supporters play in our work. And I'm really grateful. That's part of what pro Vizio focuses on. If I think that it's critical to long term success in this area, is including your partner's that and it kind of goes back to that, like, whose responsibility is it? And you know, is it God's responsibility is your responsibility, and it's both and right. And the end of the day, the lack of fun, it's good, really good to explore what's going on inside of you, when there's lack of fun? Like, what, what might God be doing in you? What might he be inviting you into? In terms of trust or dependence? Maybe he's inviting you to do more content more people? Go, I don't know what he's inviting you into. But that's a good wandering and curiosity kind of thing. Like, what what's going on underneath? You know, and even in abundance? Who gets credit for that? That you're amazing fundraising skills? Or is it just the kindness of God? Yeah. So I think it's always good for us to kind of just kind of look at what's underneath that, and it will go deeper level. And with that form you in some way? Yeah, because it is forming you in some way. So it's really good to be aware of that. I wonder, Patti, as a coach, whether it would be a fair swap as a person is, if a person is able to be aware of the way they're talking to themselves, right. Like, let's say that there's a perceived problem. And they're, they're aware of the way they're thinking about that? Is it fair to say that they should probably swap out if they if they feel themselves thinking I should, to maybe swap out and reframe to I wonder if, in a lot of our conversations where you've ended up coaching me, which I always love, I find that, you know, all kinds of get stuck on just trying to practically think through, okay, well, this is what I need to do. And you often encourage me again, like you were saying, to kind of think, to get even under that and think, Okay, well, I wonder what God might be doing here. And I wonder, what, what we should explore? Yeah, I think a lot of the should, and ought to, those are really good things to explore. I heard once, like, change your shoulds could, like, I should call that person, just change it to could. And it changes the tone of that, right? And like guilt, shame, and dread. All those things lead to isolation, and hiddenness a feeling of being alone in it. So all all of those should kinds of thing, move us in the wrong direction. But it could can propel us into a different kind of conversation with ourselves and with others around us. That could hold possibility. Yeah. Should it just gilt right? Yeah, I'm thinking of it, as you're saying that I'm thinking of it as this funnel that you can turn one way or the other in with the should the funnel is wider, where it starts and then gets narrower. And then with could it it flips, right? And so it's like, narrower, but then gets wider, like you said, expanding possibilities, which honestly, in fundraising, it's always helpful to expand that the possibilities. So yeah, I think our heart overwhelmingly impervious to is that no one leaves the field for any reason, other than the Lord has called them clearly to return. So like the pillar of fire, or smoke has moved. And I think adequate funding is a big part of that. So as a ministry burnout, so what would you how would you counsel someone you felt maybe was just going too hard? What sort of questions would you want them to ask themselves? Yeah, that's great. You Yeah, I think we always have to pace ourselves in a way that like a marathon runner would rather than a sprinter. And, you know, that's very, a very different way of moving, and training and attacking the race, right? Whether or not you have to run 26 miles or 100 yards, right. And so I think, for that long run, kind of thing, you have to think about pace and sustainability. And, you know, this, this could be another hour long conversation. But I think that our culture, talking about North American culture, puts a lot of emphasis on self care. And I'm a big fan of a lot of things that we do for self care, but I'm not a fan of that term. And primarily, it promotes the idea of, I'm responsible to care for myself, I'm responsible for my well being, I have to source it myself, I have to rely on myself, I have to make those decisions. And honestly, most of the time, I don't even know what I really need in terms of care for myself. So if we could shift that narrative for people in our kind of work, to leaning into God's care for I think we might end up doing the same thing, we might take a nap, we might sit on the porch, with a good book, we might be doing some of those same types of things. But it's different. It's, there's still a dependency on God for what we need. And there's multiple verses where it talks about God's sustaining care for you cast all your cares on Him, for He carefully cares for you. And so I think sustainability is really connected to that. Like, it's, it's not all about us getting life giving things into place. I do think that, it's good to think about that, it's good to have a list of what fills you up, it's good to know what refills you, but renews you. But then there's that leaning into his care for us. And we're so used to responding to him with thinking that he's saying go, and so we go. But sometimes he stand up just hot, you know, Come away with me as he told his disciples, and we have to be just as obedient to that call, as when he's saying go and do. And so that's a learning process for people who are driven and high capacity. People, there's a learning. And sometimes it's through really hard circumstances of something like burnout, that the person learn. Yeah, I can't be in charge of my well being. I can't, I'm not good at it. I've got to learn how to listen to God in this area, and to just be with him to understand that his heart for me, is one of kindness, and goodness, and have a parental kind of love that he always wants. What's best for me, even when what's best for me is hard. That's his desire is kindness. Goodness, mercy towards me. Yeah. He's just so good to us if we'll let him be. I'm curious, Patti, I know that you haven't necessarily worked in the role of a fundraising coach, but certainly in your time of member care, you would have been a support and encouragement to people in a space where they found themselves with funding that had gone down or wasn't adequate for their current needs, or, or whatever. So I guess, let's maybe have a scenario where you, you're either, you know, in a coaching capacity or member care capacity or something like that, and, and there's a co worker or a teammate that has has realized that unless something changes with their funding, they will have to return home for a season. Kind of suspending judgment on what, what God intends to do through that circumstance. What are the ways that you would want to show up and talk to them or what questions would you have for them or how would you kind of help them think through the situation they find themselves in? Yeah, that's hard. That's really tough. I think I would start with this my own heart. You know, to go into that kind conversation without judgment. Without you should be doing this. Yeah, to really enter into that conversation with grace, and mercy and compassion. And then I'd want to encourage that person to talk to themselves in kind and gentle ways. You know, don't beat yourself up over it. And then I would want to explore. Yeah, I'd want to explore what's going on underneath in that, like, what? Like if they've acknowledged, well, I really procrastinated. Or I've, I haven't written a newsletter in three months, those kinds of things, again, without judgment, to explore what's been going on, like, What's kept you from that? What's kept from moving forward in that and just explore that with them? And then maybe find out from them, like when it comes to stayin on the field, and that's connected to fundraising, like what's most important to you? And let them explore that a little bit? And then yeah, how does this tap into what you're believing about yourself? Or about God? Yeah, or about God? Or about the people who are on your support team? And maybe people who've dropped your, your support? Or people who you feel like, haven't quite come through for you? Like, what? What do you believe in about them? What kind of expectations did you have of people, or God or yourself that you're experiencing some disappointment in? I think I'd approach things in that way help people think through the like the how, like, what could you do next? Who else could do call? Have you thought about checking in with this particular group? I mean, we can help people in some ways to focus on the what and the how, but I think our efforts will be far more fruitful, if we help them understand themselves a bit more, grow in that self awareness, to help grow in their understanding of that experience that they're having in this moment? And how would they like that to be different? And then what might need to shift in them to adjust to the invitation that they're receiving from God in this? So it's, that's not a quick little conversation? Right? That's, uh, coming alongside and walking with someone kind of compensation? Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, just like in the initial fundraising season, when the money might not coming in, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing something wrong. And just because you find yourself in need of funding, when you're already on the field, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem. So I think it's such excellent coaching to point people towards understanding what's going on, what could the invitation from the Lord be? And what's going on in me? And what are my initial feelings about this? Right? Because the feelings will reveal something you're believing about yourself or about God. Right? And so, yeah, I think that I think those are all really helpful questions for people to, to start thinking through when they find themselves in that space. You know, and, and, if I were God, clearly, I can't think in the same way he does. But in my thinking, if I were God, and I wanted to convince you that I'm your provider, I'm probably going to let there be a little lack in your life, in some area in which you can not provide for yourself. And then wait until you create a little space for me to show up, as your provider, you know, just like to really understand that he's the comforter, we have to be in some need of comfort, or to really understand that he's our shepherd. We need to be in places where we're walking, and meeting that shepherding care and guidance that you provide. So I always like to think like, If I was God, and I was after this in my life, what might I be experiencing? And honestly, a lot of times, it's some hard things that make me willing to create the space for him to show up in that way in my life. It's hard when our prime directive for a lot of us is to insulate ourselves and protect ourselves from danger and preserve our stability and safety and comfort. Yeah. I hear ya flies directly in the face of what God's trying to do and what he's trying to teach us. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think we can kind of wrap it up here been great having you with us, Patti, I would say we coach, people in all different stages of life, primarily, people just kind of finishing college or fresh out of college, but also people mid career or perhaps at a mature crossroads. Occasionally I'll work with someone with a wide open schedule. But more frequently, they have a lot of plates spinning. So finally, my last question, I guess, would be, what tools or insights would you give to someone who's just trying to keep it all together? I think it'd be great for that person to have some recognition of the season they're in. And maybe all those plates that are spinning don't have to be spinning in this particular season. So I like the analogy I heard once of determining, like, you're juggling all these balls, and you determine which ones are the rubber balls that you can drop for a while, and they'll bounce around, and you can pick them back up. Versus the glass ball that you really need to attend to like your primary relationships and things like that. That Are you don't want to drop those, those things, right. So just understanding that season you're in and thinking about what could and maybe would be really beneficial for you to prune in this season, to create space for pursuing fundraising goals and fundraising initiatives. So it might mean setting some things aside. But I'd also say there's probably some things that you might need to add, just for that sustainability piece. Maybe you need inspiration, like I know that, for me, inspiration is highly motivating. Like if I hear an inspirational story, or have a conversation here of some way that God's showed up in somebody's life that that motivates me. So maybe you need to add a little inspiration, maybe you need to have more great for me like making calls to people and talking about what I do. And would you like to join me those are not like some people get a lot of joy out of those types of calls. Not so much for me. And so, I know I can't make three of those calls in a row. So if I need to make three of those calls in a day, I need to space them out with maybe a walk in between, or just turning my focus on something else that I enjoy doing some of those life giving things to re Energize. Todd Henry has a book called The Accidental Creative and there's a chapter on energy management. That's so good, everyone should read it. But there really is something about that is not just looking at your calendar and filling in the all the spaces that being really mindful about which things give you energy in which things drain your energy and being careful not to have too many drainers stacked up on top of each other. I don't know if this would have come from that book or something else. But I just remember it in several projects we've had the opportunity to collaborate on. I remember kind of like mid meeting you saying, Okay, guys, let's stop, let's stand. And you let us through a very particular stretching and breathing exercise in order to kind of like restore some energy. Did that by chance come from that resource? Or was that from another source? Yeah, I don't. I don't think that came from that resource. But that's the kind of thing we're talking about. Like the physical brain. There's so many cool things. We're learning about how the brain works. And one of my favorites is this thing called optic flow. That when we're walking that physical act of seeing things pass by it actually activates neurotransmitters that activate the problem solving part of our brain. That cool. What about if you're walking with a cup of coffee? Oh, man, that's like icing on hired on all cylinders. So maybe you take your next difficult coaching call on the road end? Oh, man. I'm just gonna go to the park. Do some laps. Yeah. Does it help? I mean, does it matter if you're driving or does it help to be per ambulating I think it's part of the bilateral movement at the same time. You know, you're walking I don't know if you should be driving drinking coffee and having a heart all at the same time. I definitely meant walking. Yeah. Yeah, that's really great. That's really cool. And I'm sorry, I kind of interrupted your flow of thought. But now, I think that's a great example of ways that we can just infuse our days with things that are energizing, and they're helpful in terms of kind of re igniting a little motivation to do the next thing you need to do or want to do. Well, great. Well, Patti, it has truly been wonderful to have this time with you. Are there any resources that you would recommend for our listeners, anything that's been meaningful to you? Or that when you coach people you point them to? Yeah, I, I really think finding a coach. I mean, it sounds in some ways, it sounds like a little commercial plug for coaching. And maybe it is, but being coached around, something has unlocked for me a greater understanding of who I am. And then which leads to a greater understanding of how I approach something greater understanding of what motivates me. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of coaching as a resource. Because you as someone who coaches, others, you see the benefit in being coached yourself. That's what you're saying, right? Yeah, yeah. And as a coach, then I can trade coaching and get free coaching, bargaining. I mean, there's some coaching books, like the Coaching Habit, or the coach model, or leadership coaching. There's a lot of coaching books around that. I think you could dig around in them and find some good questions. And there's actually a book called coaching questions by Tony stone. But the beauty of coaching, again, is not information. It's in the actual interaction between you and a coach. So, yeah, I've encouraged that. There's a lot of great books on finding your why podcasts. I mean, there's so much information. But information can inspire. But honestly, it rarely truly motivates to change. So here we go. And I have one final question for you, Patti. This is one that we asked to every guest. All right, so you have suddenly$10,000 that you have to give away today. Yeah, five seconds to decide who or what didn't give it to you. Okay, I'm going to take that 10,000. And I'm gonna give that 1000 To each of Penn trusted friends. And say, you have to decide who you're going to give this. Delegates it. Alright, now we're going to ask you to name each of those people. Just kidding. That's great. Well, Heather, and the yeah, that's my top two right there. So so when you do that, you're just distributing it more widely. What's, what's some of your thoughts behind that? For one thing, then I can avoid making the decision myself. Okay, decision fatigue. Okay. So, a little bit of that, but also spreading the joy. You know, it? Wouldn't it be fun really to give $10,000 to someone today and for a particular need or purpose. But if we can do that for 10 people, and maybe a smaller way, but the impact on the person of knowing that they were noticed and cared for in this way. We just doubled No, we didn't double it. We 10 times. Love it. I love it, too. Well, thank you so much, Patti. It was wonderful to have you on. Thank you. I appreciate what both of you do. And big fan. All right. Thanks. And we'll see you all in the next episode.