It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

7. LPC Elina Zentz and Lee Lester on "The Psychology of Fundraising" (Part 1 of 2)

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 2 • Episode 7

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The fundraising season ushers in a certain level of disruption and increased stress. Our responses in this season can differ depending on a variety of things: prior experiences, our view of ourselves, our view of money, etc. Without the awareness and tools to navigate the unexpected dynamics of fundraising, unnecessary strain and even momentum paralysis can occur.

On today’s episode, we dive in with two professional counselors: Elina Zentz, MA, NCC, LPC and Lee Lester, MA, NCC, LPCC

Resources mentioned in our discussion:
*Know Yourself, Know Your Money
*Emotionally Healthy Spirituality 
*To Be Told

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Welcome to the purpose EO podcast, a place where we explore and discuss the fundraising process with all its nuance and challenge, tension and opportunity. So, Mrs. Winchell, you've heard my my vision and some of the need, how would you and your husband feel about coming onto our partnership team $400 a month? This scene might seem familiar to some of you. The question is, what are you feeling in that moment? There are a wide range of emotions that one might experience in the fundraising process encouraged, anxious, surprised, stuck, resolved, embarrassed, grateful, frustrated, refreshed, overwhelmed, stressed. As they say those words, imagine the reality of each of these words and how it impacts you holistically. We are embodied people created with the intention to be mind spirit and body. We bring our whole selves into the fundraising process. And as such, we want to care for our whole selves Well, the fundraising season ushers in a certain level of disruption and increased stress. Our responses in the season can differ depending on a variety of things, including prior experience and the way we view ourselves or others. Without the tools to navigate the unexpected dynamics of fundraising, a person can experience unnecessary strain and even momentum paralysis. Let's explore the different ways that our lack of awareness or healing can impact our readiness for fundraising and ministry. Okay, thanks, Heather. Today, we are super excited to have with us two licensed professional counselors. We have Lee Lester and Alena Zentz. And I've just asked them to introduce themselves for us. Tell us a little bit about your background, maybe an exposure to overseas, living ministry, fundraising and just where you're coming from philosophically, educationally, etc. Let's start with Lee. Thanks, Andy. Gab. I have about six years of experience overseas, few years in Asia, and then a couple in the Middle East. And I just completed my master's degree and have just began practicing as a licensed professional counselor. Fantastic. My name is Elena Zen's. I have been a licensed professional counselor for a while now. I graduated 10 years ago and have been involved either an agency work or private practice ever since. And I mostly focus on trauma and anything that goes under the trauma umbrella. And my overseas experience has been fairly lengthy. I started in 2004. And I have had the privilege of living in different countries, and also going on short term mission trips. And quite honestly, I am still living overseas as I originally come from Latvia, which is a small eastern European country. And I have been here permanently since 2009. When I got married to my husband. And here is the United States. Yes, yeah. Yeah. And where are you from? Originally? We're so tired from Hope. Arkansas, Arkansas, dirty cell. All right. So both of you are Clinical Counselors, but you're both also Christians. How does your faith impact how you do your jobs? What do you say to someone who's concerned with a clinical approach to self care? They might say that secular I need something biblical. That's good. That is also a lot of questions. And one question. Okay, let's let's back up. Start with how does your faith impact how you do your jobs? For me, it definitely has been a journey. When I started out, it was almost seemed like black and white. It was very simple. This is biblical, this is more secular. But as I have grown more into who I am as a counselor, and also have learned a lot more about the field, about our how we work as human beings and how even physiologically how our bodies work and what happens to us when we go through trauma or anything that's really overwhelming. I can truly say that I believe you can separate that and a more biblical and counseling is so connected because counseling truly reveals the glory of God and how we have been created and And there's so much still to uncover. And none of it, none of it, if it sound counseling really truly goes against what's biblical like that? Yeah, I totally agree. I think that, you know, just because something might be labeled secular, it doesn't really mean that the fundamentals of a biblical framework are not deeply embedded in that. And I guess, yeah, some some of the basic skills of counseling, if you look at the code of ethics is, is listening, empathizing and encouraging autonomy. So I think, you know, anybody who is looking for a professional therapist, counselor, they need to be looking for those things, people, because when I, when I wanted to be a counselor, like I was like, oh, yeah, I'll just tell everybody what to do give them great advice. And that's really, there's a little bit of that. But that's like a 5%, maybe, of really what counseling embodies. It's a lot of what's the 90%? Yeah, the 90%. I, like I said before, like listening, empathizing, reflecting back to the, to the client, and even, you know, kind of helping the client to when they're when they have some contradictions between values, and maybe choices. They're making, just really bringing those to the table and letting the client see those, and then really allowing the client to make these choices, because we've all been given advice. And we've all tried to give other people advice, and they're really not going to follow things unless they they want to, or they agree with and so those are some of the fundamentals of I would say, general academic, secular counseling. Sure. Yeah. So I was at a class this past Sunday at my church, and it was about like Christianity and mental health. One of the observations the speaker made was that people have in the older generation, my agent up, had a very strong suspicion of kind of secular clinical counseling. And they're like, No, you do not need any of that stuff. All you need to Scripture. And then people that are younger, like Gen Z are like, I need a professional. And that's my main entry point for advice and counsel, and the Bible's kind of out here doesn't really help me with that stuff, really. So what do you say to somebody who says, like this, this is this is secular, I don't I need, I need the Bible. Only, I would start out that there are a lot of topics that the Bible doesn't cover. Because it's not the purpose. Sure, the purpose is to reveal God. And even with the Scripture, um, just as Lee was talking, I was thinking about enrollments, when Paul talks about that nobody has an excuse, because even the nature reveals God. And the same way science can do that as well, quite honestly. Now, even secular counseling will say, faith and spirituality is important. It is quite honestly, one of the most crucial parts in somebody's healing journey and recovery. And it's secular counseling is not throwing out somebody's faith. What happens on the ground and counseling room? A lot of things can people bring in their own biases, reactions, and that's a different story. But in general, sound counseling will make space for spirituality, and, and if in somebody's case, that's Christianity, in their faith in Jesus, then the person can bring that in. And a good respectful counselor will provide space for that. Yeah, and I would, I would say, you know, I think, to give the other generation, some credit is no Freud and Albert Ellis and Jung and some of those people like they were pretty open about like, their, their beliefs in secular atheism, or whatever it is. And so, like Alena said, you know, recently, there's really been a big shift in the academic world to accept that spirituality is really important in your mental health. And so that's, I think, you know, we've kind of just kind of come back to that. So it's not your grandfather's counseling, right. And, and also, I would say, you know, Freud or whoever it is, like, we shouldn't be listening to them about their spiritual topics and let that affect their opinion of the psychological which is their focus and their and I believe, you know, through the common grace of God like that he's given them those. They're made in the image of God and we're able to, to have those talents to understand the mind in a way that that somebody else whatnot that has, uh, you know, maybe engineering or mathematics or whatever it might be, or even I would even say like pretty close to it, but similar like philosophy, which CS Lewis obviously is gifted in that. But he will tell you like he's not going to give you advice on your, on your, like psychological problems. What about somebody who says, well, can't you just go to your pastor for all these things? Yeah, that's a valid question. I mean, really pastors, you know, there's a lot of, I'm thinking of a lot of jokes out there about like, pastors, how they're really equipped for everything from like business decisions, marriage money, like all these different things. But I would say to some degree, and I'm, I'm generalizing here, but I would, I would say that their focus is and should be the Bible, and it shouldn't be mental health. Sure, I would say that would maybe even be a problem of why so many pastors are burning out, is because there's just this, the flock has kind of given them this, this assumption that they should be the professional and everything. Yeah, interesting. And I would just like to add on to that a lot of pastors are not equipped to handle quite a bit of mental health issues, the pastor most likely will not be able to tell when a person is going shut into a shutdown, or when they are triggered, because they have to talk about or if they're forced, if a person is forced to talk about too many details, or what has happened to them. And the pastor might perceive it as like, Oh, this is a great thing, like we're working through this, it might be the absolute least thing that a person needs to be doing in that moment. And a trained professional can recognize that and have the tools, how to keep the person safe. Yeah, and I guess, like, overall, like, just giving some people like, I guess my perspective of, you know, I'm asking the Holy Spirit and asking God to give me wisdom before I go into a session with a client asking God to provide the wisdom, the insight, the clarity, the healing. But really, from my experience, the practical ways of therapeutic healing and growth typically relate to the client's past, to their family, their home life, and really how that's kind of shaped like their maladaptive thinking and ineffective ways of handling stress and anxiety, and even possibly, inaccurate views of themself that are not biblical, unbiblical, like ways of relating to other people, food, money, anything like that. So to summarize, again, like the fundamentals of, of a biblical framework are there but but we just, we just go at it from a different perspective, with those kind of assumed, yeah, why do we think we need to spiritualize therapy, I would say there's a fear there. If grandma you know, she, she knows Psalms, and she knows all the Bible, like she wants to go some to somebody. In the end, she she feels comfortable there, but really like facing a lot of these scarier demons of, of traumas, when from your childhood, you know, how your, how you were loved or not loved by your parents, those are things that are the touch a little closer to home? Pardon the pardon the pun. Yeah, and I'm not a licensed professional counselor. So I might be way off, you guys can correct me. But it just seems to me that maybe even culturally, people are far more comfortable sitting in a more cerebral space. And, and the beautiful thing about the Bible is it is full of truth. And it is full of truth that is to be that our life is to be steeped in. Right? There are there are invitations all over scripture, to trust the Lord to depend on the Lord to look to Him for our healing and things like that. And so I think part of the tension that we're feeling or that the pain point is it is maybe more comfortable to just kind of comply or apply a piece of scripture, rather than wrestling through whatever the deeper wound is, and letting Jesus meet you there. Right? It's just easier to kind of bypass that altogether. And believe something to be true about God without it without it kind of forcing a deeper conversation or like a deeper wound being exposed. Yeah, and I would think part of that, too, is just intellectualizing our faith. And really, I think the feelings and emotions part is part of the thing that they're avoiding, by wanting to just look and read and study. Yeah, because that feels very controllable. Oh, yes. Yeah, one of the scariest things for people is to feel truly when they are feeling the impact of what they've been through. Because they believe if I start feeling this, the pain will never go away. And it is so are so intense and overwhelming. And so it's a lot easier to shove it down and just stay in your head. Sure. All right. Well, I am excited. All of that from our first our first question question. Yeah. Okay, so as we dive right in, I would love to just start by giving the listener a general overview of how our brain responds to threat or obstacle. So like what biologically happens when we are uncomfortable or feel vulnerable. So I guess I can jump right into it. Make it simple for us, I will make it simple. We all have a brain. Yeah. And we all have this thing called nervous system. And all the systems in our body communicate to each other. And so the nervous system has two main branches. And then which is sympathetic and parasympathetic branch, and the parasympathetic branch will go into two different branches, which is the ventral vagus nerve, and the dorsal vagus nerve. And each of these branches, is responsible for different things, in order to help us function to move through life to get things done to keep us safe. Then there's also the brain. And the brain also has multiple parts. And there is the neocortex, where all our reasoning is based and logical thinking and we can be all cool about that. And then there's Olympics limbic system where that multiple brain parts in there, but that is responsible for relationships and emotional regulation. And then there's this, it's more like a brainstem. But it's also called the reptilian brain. And a lot of people don't like that. The lizard brain lizard, I'm not really sure how I personally feel towards that word. But that's a different story. And the lizard brain or reptilian brain is responsible holds all our survival instincts. And so what happens when there's a threat or a perceived threat, like let's say, there's a car coming at you, like Lee standing on the corner, and a car is just coming full speed for him in order to survive, the brain is not gonna allow for the neocortex system online, his limbic system in his reptilian lizard brain will engage so that he can jump out of the way, because the neocortex will be going, hmm, there's a car coming, I wonder how fast it's coming? What should I do about this now. So basically, he makes an unconscious decision to move right body unconsciously, and it happens within seconds, and the body is going to move. So what happens in the nervous system, and that moment, when there is such active threat coming at a person sympathetic branch is going to get activated. And so that will allow to get out of danger. But it also gets activated to help people to go to work to get things done. It happens throughout the day, multiple times, and then it goes back into a resting state or in the ventral state. And if you can imagine a slinky, going back and forth. That's what a regulated nervous system will look like. There's arousal, and then there's resting and coming down. So we're kind of always fluxing through this always flexing, it's never just a straight line. I think that's when you're dead. Or at least in a complete free state. And it also doesn't shoot up super high or super low, low. And then when a person has experienced hard experiences, or something growing up, where there are some maybe messages they have received, sometimes there is trauma, sometimes they are overwhelming experiences, the nervous system can learn to respond and continue to respond when there is no threat anymore. But the brain keeps perceiving a threat. And that would that be what people refer to as like triggering, that will be triggering, okay, yeah. And so, either a person can be activated and which is the flight fight response, or depending on what they have experienced in life, they can go into a free state, which is the dorsal Ranch, so that they can go so still that they can be seen. There are physiological processes that happened in our bodies. When a nervous system gets activated, heart rate increases, blood flow increases, actually, your body will start to bring your blood flow away from the blood vessels that are close to the skin. And just in case you get injured Get into a nice sight that probably will go deeper than just the surface. But sure, yeah. And then, and then the dorsal state, there will be less breathing, there will be less oxygen into the brain so that a person can go completely still like, and that's literally is a freeze without the temperature. So could you say some people get big and some people get small? To simplify? Yeah, it's like maybe like a shutdown. shutdown is another word for that. So the dorsal response is just then that's the part of the nervous branch that gets activated in that moment. But it will look like a shutdown. I just want to draw awareness to the fact that everybody listening has a brain and a body. So we're not just talking about knowledge, we're talking about like something actually happening in your body, your nervous system in your body that you're not aware of does these things, which is just helpful to remember, it's not just knowledge, it's not just big words, we don't know. And it's also not something that just happens, people can learn to develop awareness around it. Somatic therapist call it felt awareness. But, well, I have had the privilege of working with this for eight years now. And working on myself, I can tell at any given moment, which branch is more activated, and where I'm at just because I have done the work and learn to pay attention to my sensations. And I know which sensations are responsible for one. So if somebody asks you to go and fundraise, how does that? What does that activate? That will be my sympathetic branch through the roof. Okay. And most likely, where's the next exit door? Okay. It will not be eventual, where it would be relaxed, at ease. I'm ready to connect with people. Which actually just, you know, points to the fact that as we suspect most people do not enter the fundraising season totally relaxed, kind of ambivalent, super chill, which is why we want to have this conversation. But I'm curiously Do you have anything to add? I guess just from from talking about it right now, like, in my own mind, I'm like, oh, yeah, if I just view it from like a relational aspect, then it will be much more enjoyable for me. And so, you know, when I raise support to there was a little bit of that. But there was, there was definitely a lot of stress from the the other areas. Sure, and I just want to add another thing, this is my last thing on the nervous system, maybe the sympathetic activation happens naturally, and so is the shutdown, to return to the relaxed state mental state, that's something we as human beings can and need to work on and cultivate. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's super hard work. Like as Lee was saying, If I approach this from a relationship perspective, and I go and talk to a person, and I see the person, you know, I already have maybe a relationship, and they are not going to be out there to get me. So a relatively safe person, then, then my nervous system will co regulate with his nervous system, and do the work of creating more access to the ventral state, just naturally, in the ventral state, again, is the relaxed state, a relaxed state where they where we are able to have relationships, were able to co regulate with other people. Because after all, we are social beings. And maybe it's a lot of the anxiety comes from just the assumption, some of these these narratives or whatever in our lives, that if I'm going to ask you for money, that I'm really going to be stressing you out. I'm really going to be putting a burden on you. And this is really going to be stressful for all of us. So if we can just shift that, that narrative a little bit to like what you said, like, we're just going to hang out, and we're going to work on our relationship. And I have this cool story. I want to tell you, that kind of takes a lot of the pressure off of him maybe. Yeah, but I think that brings up a really good point, Andy, because acknowledging that you're going into something thinking, Oh, this is going to burden them. There's a reason that that's your posture, right? There's a reason you're going into that, thinking they'll respond in a certain way or fearing even a certain response. So I think we understand that people come to the fundraising season with a lot of preconceived obstacles or expectations and in the previous to curriculum, we start at that place, identifying what those obstacles and those beliefs are because we understand that those thoughts and obstacles are birthed in a certain context. There's a reason people are showing up thinking of those three words for fundraising or kind of assuming that it will look like this or that. And so, you know, understanding that we are all shaped consciously and unconsciously by our experiences. I'd love to hear you guys speak to how I guess I've heard the term the family as a classroom. How do our prior experiences affect how we show up to fundraising? So I guess, specifically with money? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's where we can start. Yeah, the thing that jumps in my mind is this book I read by I'm about to say a bad word. Dave Ramsey. His daughter, Rachel Cruz wrote this book, know yourself, know your money. And it has this this model that we all grew up in a classroom. And I actually think like, clinically about everybody, this is true in a lot of whether it's how you deal with conflict, how you deal with emotions, like those are all we all learn those from, from our family and childhood, directly or indirectly, but also about money. And so Rachel does a really good job in his book of, of kind of selecting, it's kind of like a quadrant with four quadrants. And so the first one is the anxious quadrant that somebody the classroom they grew up in. And basically what that means is, it was not talked about, but it was felt like when you remember, like when you asked your mom, I need cleats for next week for for soccer, like the stress that you felt it wasn't talked about, or maybe the stress at the checkout center at the checkout line with your mom. Or like maybe recognizing like, you know, your mom would always buy like, like, like maybe the day old bread. And then you went with some friends too. This is a story in the book, like, then you went with some friends to the grocery store. And the mom was like inspecting every loaf. And then you're like, What are you doing? And she's like, Oh, I'm looking for the freshest bread. And then you mentioned that to your mom next time. She's like, No, we can't afford that. Right? Yeah, and we don't do fresh bread, we don't do fresh bread. And then just like a lot of that. So there's just a lot of anxiety around that. And so I think that the main problem that can how that can affect somebody is really the fear behind just money in general. And then the other the second of the four classrooms is like unstable, that's where it's like really talked about really openly, maybe argued about, maybe even your neighbor, you know, your friends, when they're over, they hear about money. I mean, it's very open. But but the problem with that is is kind of, I guess some some apathy about just kind of wanting to give up or even maybe stick stick your head in the sand when it comes to money just because as a kid, like there's just trauma of around like the arguments and everything. So you just want to avoid money. Too sensitive to sensitive. Yeah, the third one is like the unaware, that's where you really didn't feel any emotions. And it wasn't really talked about it at all. But at some point in your life, you recognize Wait a second, like we're broke? Or like, you know, maybe maybe it's after you get married, take a peek at your parents finances, and then you recognize that, oh, no, things have never been good. And I always thought they were and she never even thought about it posture. So. So that's the third kind? And would that kind kind of fit with like betrayal? Like you, you kind of felt like reality was one way but then you kind of harshly realize it's not totally that be okay. Totally. And maybe as people start to gain insight into your own past, like, there can be a lot of feelings. And that's, that's a great point to bring up. Heather just the idea of, we want to be gracious to our parents and like, just assume that like, they did the best they could and Amen. Yeah, they did the best they could and really even thinking about their childhood as well and how that formed them the stories of, of their parents, and there's probably stories in your families that have to do with money. And those will tell you a lot about your your kind of history of money. But that yeah, that third one was just kind of being unaware and really, with that, it's really easy to kind of ignore responsibility. And so, you know, that could it could look a lot of different ways. Like maybe you start you know, finally making you're making 50,000 a year and then you just start like giving lots of money away to all these people because you're like, oh my gosh, it's great, but then you don't realize how negatively that's affected you and is affecting your your future decisions as well. And your family. So So yeah, those are the those are the three that are kind of negative in the last one it just kind of as secure classroom to grow up. And that's really where there's like, the emotion is calm, but the communication is open. And so yeah, I think that's I think that really this affects people in their fundraising really, in a lot of ways. But the main way is just, you're talking about money. And you're being you have to be very open about like, I'm asking for this amount. This is, this is for spending money, and then this is going to be for my retirement. I mean, I even had somebody at one, one point kind of indirectly told me you don't need retirement, because you're gonna you can you're putting money into Social Security. And I want to immediately ask them, like, are you doing that? I'm pretty sure you're not. Can I add to that? Yeah, it just made me think of another aspect. And I don't know if this would come up or not. But Americans are so scared to talk about money openly, right? Culturally, culturally, it's such a big, big taboo. And there's so much shame attach. And from what I have experienced doesn't matter whether you have a lot on not much. But it's always the same reaction. Yeah. And I don't know how or where this would fit into the the kind of different quadrants that she put forward. But just understanding that where you grow up, like in the kind of the culture around how normative debt is how normative, like, affluence is, it's just there's a lot we can internalize about, you know, like, if you're in a situation where, really, it's no thing to give to everything people ask you to give to, in another situations, it doesn't look like that there's there's definitely more discernment that has to go into where to steward those funds and things like that. And even in a culture, the way that's happening, and I guess the reason I'm thinking of this is I recently watched the movie Belfast, I don't know if you guys have seen it, but it's about a family unit in Ireland. And it was just very normative within the playing out of that movie that every family was unable to pay their rent, it was just normative in that setting that like, Well, yeah, everybody's on behind on rent. And because that was normative, maybe there wasn't as much shame around it, as in maybe growing up in a small town, if it's a pretty affluent town, but then there's this one family that has a hard time paying their rent, it feels very different to see those around you being so different. So I think that's another element that can inform the way we show up to talk about money, what the culture around us, like I did classroom to a dominance that talks about what is the generational message that's being passed down? And what are the stories that we carry generationally? And they become deeply embedded in us? And so those are automatic responses. And it's absolutely essential, I have to say, to go back and be curious enough, what are the stories that we carry? What are the narratives that we hold, that just just come out of us so fast? Because they've been there for a long time, and we are so used to them? But what's the impact of all of that? And how, how did these stories and these experiences shaped us? It is that hard to process by yourself? Now, you can do that by yourself. You don't necessarily need to go to a therapist to do that. All it really takes is the first step. Are you curious enough to understand how how come I'm reacting this way? I wonder why it's so hard for me to talk about this. With the pretty self aware though, yeah, yeah, that reminds me of this book. Last name allander He talks about an Alexander elder Yeah, about your own story. I can't remember that. But it's like just thinking about these different themes like you can like think about your your family and money and and what are some common like stories told in your family so and so like, you know, had to live on this during the Great Depression or uncle so and so did this and had to sell the farm, you know, so and so got a divorce and we had to go so all these different like, themes for this under this topic of money that you remember, that are talked about like Christmas, funerals, weddings, all those different things are, are really kind of insight into, I would say the larger current that you were in that you really weren't aware of. Yeah, I very, I remember very clearly, many times hearing the story of my grandparents growing up being newlyweds during the Depression. And like they were just pinch their pennies, and maybe one week they would they would splurge and buy the salt shaker. And the next week, they would or the next month or whatever it is like they would buy the pepper shaker. So that was that was a recurring name in my childhood. So so in this book by Peter skos Arrow called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. He talks about like 10 commandments and if Only in it, there could be like a the 10 commandment is like live laugh, love. Right? So that means like, Thou shalt not frown. But there's also the implied, right? That's that's the implied kind of commandment for the home. Yeah. But also there's financial ones, you know, I just think of my family. And some common sense maybe is like, you know, somebody is, if they're rich, they are, they're important. They are wise, you can send degree they are good, or, or another one could be like money is the best source of security. You know, maybe another one is, like making money is the only way to prove you made it or you're successful. Yeah, yeah. So those are just some examples of possible, like, I guess, rules of your family. And usually what mid rolls that somebody grows up with, people tend to live them out to the best of our ability, either consciously or subconsciously, or just because they think that's the only way. And there will be a physical response to those. We can separate what we believed from what's happening in our bodies. And so oftentimes people will experience fear, which oftentimes can translate into anxiety, they can go into shutdown and freeze response. And that can manifest in different behaviors, even maybe, like inability to budget or overspend, oftentimes, and I would say, in most cases, there is the nervous system is involved in how we deal with these things, or what we experience. And I can even see how that applies directly to the meeting with a with with somebody with a potential supporter, like, you even you might not call them, you might not follow up. If you grew up in a certain classroom, because you're afraid you're you just don't want to talk about money. And some other examples could be you might just, you know, instead of asking them, like, I hope that you can give 100 a month, you might just say 50, just because of the family you grew up in and right and money. Yeah, and all of this will be just automatic response, unless there's awareness and noticing. This is what drives me, this is why I have this reaction, which I think is a really important thing to point out and equip people with, because I mean, even even thinking about emotion, you know, there are different ways of approaching fundraising. And in some ways you can kind of like leave your emotion at the door and just like do the right things, right? Make the calls, make the ask, follow up is just go through the motions of emotions, these are the central things like your, if you feel a negative emotion, like you need to apply some scripture to it and just push through. But I think the invitation I hear from you guys is like, there's a reason and you know, this is what we suspect, like there's a reason that that emotion is coming up, or that obstacle seems so big to you. And so you're just reminding people to instead of trying to shut it down, maybe just be more curious, like you said, and and I guess that brings me to just question on emotion. You know, we are designed like it's part of our makeup to have emotions, if they have such a negative connotation. What do you guys think is like a balanced way to view emotions? We've heard they don't drive the bus. But I think Alina will have a lot to say on this. But I want to just start with the way I look at it from a clinical perspective. And I think Alina will agree like not to look at these reactions, these these anxieties, whatever they are as a pathology or a dysfunction, but really looking at it as, as an important part of who you are. And it's really trying to communicate to you that there's there's something deeper going on. Yeah, and if you're just to be curious and play a detective to some some degree to really just yeah, just view it as as a blessing in disguise to really be able to look at something deeper, that God's trying to show you in a way that he's trying to grow you emotionally and spiritually. Emotions are tricky, and they because they are so powerful, they carry a lot of physical energy with them. And we all feel them somewhere in here in our bodies. Except Andy. I feel nothing. In a mental health counseling setting, all emotions are valid. And to the best of our abilities, we try to create space for people to experience and feel all their emotions. Emotions carry a lot of information. If we didn't have our emotions, we would be missing a huge part of life. For sure. I mean, we would it will just not be there and we would probably more feel like robots. But saying that, even though Emotions are valid and they carry information. They're not always factual. So the information does not always mean that what you feel is true, right? Like an example, when I saw my clients are so attached to their negative thoughts, like really self hatred, thoughts, and I asked them, How do you know that it's true? They will say, but it feels so. Right. Right. And it's wrong if it feels right. Right. And so no, I feel it strongly. Yeah. Right. And if, if it doesn't feel, then it can be right. And so in a lot of ways, there's always an invitation to, as Lee was saying, to play detective, and to be curious about them, befriend them, but also now, unless we hold on to them, because we can either suppress them or really hold on to them in a way where we keep feeling the same emotion over and over and over again, indefinitely. They were pretty short lifecycle. Like it will come spike, and then we'll go down. Of course, it would take awareness to notice that. And so that's where noticing what is happening in our bodies comes in really handy. Because most of our emotions, it will start out as, as sensations, we have to go to our bodies to be able to identify that we are feeling like if I ask Heather, how do you know when you're sad? How would you answer that question? I think I would probably say something like, I start to feel heavy, like something feels heavy on my shoulders, right? Yeah. It's usually people say something about, oh, it hurts in my heart. It starts out by describing a physical sensation, right? And then our brain interprets that or translates that into an emotion. Right? Yeah. So another really common feeling that we've talked about a bit, but that I want to focus in on is anxiety, you know, whether it's around our performance, or our acceptance, rejection not being funded, whatever it's, I guess, centered around, what are some tools that you guys would put forward for working through anxiety, my typical approach is starting, encouraging people to look at anxiety from a different perspective. Anxiety is not just worrying, like Jesus was saying, Don't be anxious about anything, which in some ways implies thinking most people, even if there are thoughts following after that worrying thoughts. Most people experience anxiety and anxiety in their bodies, it will always be somatic increase heart rate, pit in your stomach, sweating, maybe kind of like a hot flash. So those are very somatic responses. And what happens in that moment is when for whatever reason, fundraising is hard. And we will have to put themselves out there. It's a state of vulnerability and vulnerability never, ever feels great. There are some exceptions, with a really safe person. But in fundraising, you will encounter people that you you're not super familiar with. And so when that happens, our nervous system, sympathetic branch will go into an activated state. And if it goes higher than just what it's needed to get things done, anxiety will be a very typical outcome to that. And my invitation to people is to use a different language around it, because the way we talk matters, we can talk about, Oh, I feel anxious. I don't trust God. Nobody wants to support me, I can do this. This is too much. So those are all thoughts. But can a person slow down enough to be curious and say, Oh, my nervous system is activated. It doesn't mean anything else. It's just a really challenging time right now. I feel vulnerable and my nervous system branches activated and I feel anxious. Yeah. And then we can bring in tools to regulate that to bring down the nervous system to allow for it to go more into eventual space. And there are multiple ways how we can do that. I feel like I've heard a lot of people talk about how breathing is just like a God given gift and tool for bringing your body back into a place of calm is that would you recommend different breathing, there's different breathing. So there will be different breathing techniques for aroused activated state and different breathing techniques for a shutdown state. Okay, interesting. Just based on physiologic What happens when we go to one or the other, and people can Google them for what's the key term, they should Google for a aroused state, activated, sympathetic state four to six, breathing is helpful. Breathing through closing one of your nostrils, and then another one, alternating, that will help with bringing down the activation. If people don't want to Google that, and then don't want to follow like a script or instructions, extending your breath, and deepening your breath will also be helpful. And as a person is doing that, it is also important to keep inviting yourself away from the thoughts because we can breathe. And we can still think all our worrying thoughts, right. And inviting yourself to noticing how the air is entering your lungs, the expansion the ribcage, expanding the muscles around it, and doing that for 10 minutes, depending how intense the anxiety is. Also movement. Because anxiety carries a lot of energy. And so shaking starting with shaking your hands, you can turn on music, and dance to it. shaking out going back to shaking your hands and walk, go for a walk. But it is also the trick, whatever you do. You need to bring your self to the present moment, instead of going back to I'm going to keep thinking about this. And I'm going to keep adding all the narratives that are now popping up and I'm viewing my present situation through those lenses. Otherwise, I'm not going to work. Yeah. And if people go to a shutdown, which oftentimes could translate into a feeling really overwhelmed. Oh, I can't look at it. I'm just not gonna do a avoidance inability to focus people can start feeling like dizzy or sluggish. So almost like a panic attack. A panic attack will most likely go to now most likely, but it will be activated state and fogginess will feel differently for us shutdown state freeze response, it will be more like dissociative. Like everything kind of gets like if you imagine swimming through jello. Maybe that's too thick, maybe putting. But everything kind of can get muffled. Whereas in a panic attack, it can get really staticky. And in some ways, the world can get muffled, but inside can get really loud. And so there are certain breaths like breath of jaw Breath of Fire, that people can Google because I'm not going to demonstrate. And those types of breathing will increase blood flow. They will allow for the person mentally to come out in from the shutdown freeze response. is it also possible if somebody is feeling overwhelmed by this that they would, they would look to other things that would distract them and give them a feeling of accomplishment? If they can't if they're so overwhelmed by by doing this. So they might go and work on other little tasks that give them kind of a hit of dopamine and say, okay, I'm good, I'm successful. I've completed something today. But they've pushed fundraising off to the side still. Absolutely. As long as they're back of their mind. They don't keep going back. Otherwise, there's no separation. And part of you stays always in that state. So if you want to go and distract yourself and using something that's healthy, that's maybe fulfilling, inspiring. Yeah, there's always invitation you have to bring your whole person. Right and the moment when eating on right, it has to be in the present moment because we can only regulate ourselves in the present moment. What does that mean? So don't keep stewing on it. Don't keep stewing on it. Don't run through your head with scenarios. Don't imagine the future. So wherever you're at and whatever you're doing, like what's your favorite thing to do? That's relaxing, basketball. So just really focusing on playing basketball, focusing on the ball like what it feels like in your hand, like the force that would drive blame that happens. Yeah. What do you need to take the ball away from? But don't distract yourself with something that's not as helpful. Yeah, don't use a numbing behavior. Sure. Yeah. I guess, you know, in general, maybe not in the moment, like Alena said, but kind of something to maybe, to focus on whatever the reaction is, it could be later. But I'd like to kind of start with a kind of some grounding, that really helps you kind of focus inward, just kind of, it's pretty simple. It's called four by four breathing, it's just, it's four seconds in, four seconds out. So forget, four seconds of inhaling four seconds of exhaling, and then you do it four times. Sometimes I lose count, it's okay. If you do more. Now, it's helpful if you have a stopwatch, Oh, yes. But that really helps me kind of get in the moment. And but then also, it helps me focus inwardly. And then you can kind of do what Alena talks about and really focus on maybe some somatic physical symptoms you have, you can also, even maybe, for some people, that's kind of challenging, they don't really feel anything at the moment. So another way is maybe to think of like, those thoughts, or whatever it is, do they have a certain tone of voice? Like, you might not actually hear audible sounds like you're stupid, you're not going to complete this. They you looked ridiculous, when you ask them for money, or whatever it is. But usually, you can sense a tone. Is it harsh? Is it soft? Like almost like a a whisper? Like a weak whispers it scared, angry, you know, things like that. And, and then kind of like I mentioned before, just becoming curious about this, whatever you are experiencing those symptoms and, and relate it to figure out like, how is how is it trying to help me short term because usually, these things are like they are trying to help in a short term they're trying to, to ignore or avoid something, some danger, like the danger of being abandoned, or failing or losing control rejected rejection, yeah, all those things. And so that's kind of where that curiosity comes in to where we want to just learn more about your story and learn about some whatever it is, it kind of built towards trying to teach you through these through this anxiety, because God does want you to raise support, but but really just just kind of looking at it from a curious perspective and not hating those those symptoms, but really using them as a tool and almost like a trailhead, to where you can go and find something deeper inside, that that needs work on that needs healing. And that oftentimes happens easier with a regulated nervous system state. Yeah, and I just, I mean, it's, I learned a year ago that when we are activated, we have all these emotions, and sometimes very intense emotions, and a lot of therapists and I have myself have done it to where do you feel that in your body, the typical question that comes around these days, but when we do just go to emotions and an activated state, and it can be either going up or down with emotions, memories, experiences, and very many stories in there, and we can actually get stuck in there. Yeah, and so as Lee was saying, with a four to four, and I would actually encourage people to build it a little bit more extended five by five by five by six, only Americans breathe way too much. And a lot of that breathing take that as a compliment me and out of all of our problems. Yeah, that's actually a really bad Oh, is that it's breathing. Okay. An average american breathe is 18 breath cycles a minute. And optimal is 5.5. Because if you breathe too much, first of all, it comes in and out your brain can't doesn't have the time to absorb oxygen at all. You should run more, right? And less lung capacity, like determines how long you're gonna live among capacity. Yep. Wow. Yeah. So see more opera. Right. That's what we're getting at. Either you say that. You can edit that out. I did not say. But going back to the, as Lee was saying that four four by four four by four extending it even longer. And once a person can notice Okay, now I feel a little bit calmer, a little feel a little bit more present in whatever or the physical environment at that moment is then going proceeding into exploring this narratives, because then there's a detachment happening between the emotions, and the somatic, and we can explore and see things a lot clearer when we are regulated. Andy and I often talk about how the fundraising season is really a preparatory season for ministry in that it, you know, it forces you to see that your obedience matters, and that it matters to depend on entrust yourself to the Lord for what only He can provide. But I guess from our conversation today, it's just clear to me that anybody entering the fundraising season should probably also be ready to have some other work outside the work of raising funds that they're working on right of work of understanding themselves, and really to the end of making them effective ministry also. Yeah, yeah, I know, we had asked you guys to maybe give our listeners some homework, maybe provide some, some resources or some direction on how they could be a good steward of these things. They're learning about themselves, because it's one thing just to listen to us and just say, Yes, I agree with all that stuff. Oh, that's interesting, but then just do nothing with it, or just move on to the next episode. Yeah, so I guess going back to what I mentioned before about the financial classrooms, you maybe grew up and just really just taking you know, 2030 minutes to, to just think about your own story and, and really kind of think about, you know, was it one or two different classrooms you grew up in? And, and maybe even think about what are some of the challenges? How's that going to affect me now, because of my past and remind us that the classrooms again, classrooms, again, we're the first one's anxious, the second one's unstable, the third is unaware. And then the fourth is a secure one. And the secure really is, is if you look at an a quadrant, you know, the X and a Y axis, like openness as opposed to closeness and but also a regulation of emotions as opposed to unregulated. Okay, heightened. Yeah, yeah. And on that note, I also would like to add that all of these stories can be written, people are not locked into them. Amen. And regardless what classroom a person has grown up in, that can change because we're all wired for security. We're all capable of fostering that. And we're all capable of healing and changing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And part of that, too, that's really good is thinking about the maybe some tendencies that you can change and kind of rewrite in your story and, and make a new mold for your family break breaking some of the old molds? Yeah, well, that's the question honest, the question that all the parents listening are wondering is how do I establish that that classroom for my kids that safe and healthy, like, what do we need to do? Or how does that what does that look like? Work on your attachment? Okay, what does that mean? Because essentially, the classrooms it will go back to your attachment to money or to people to anything. Because, I mean, the classrooms mostly sound like almost like attachment styles to, but security if, if a parent can give secure attachment adaptation to their children, that is the second best thing after Jesus so they can give to their child. Would that be like attunement, attunement, being seen security safety? I probably would have to email you about the book. Dan Anderson, talks a lot about attachment and what that looks like. And as Lee was talking about the secure classroom, right, there is not an overreaction to things. It's almost like calmness, but it's also openness, which also would include if there are times when we're struggling with money, okay, we're struggling with money right now. But we know we will be able to handle it, we will figure it out. This is not the end of the world. You don't have to create secrets around it. And doesn't mean that we're bad people or anything like that. That's helpful. Yeah. And I guess there's some other general practices. I think this has been influential in my like spiritual life and it's really kind of it's from Peters caseros, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, but just the idea of, of starting to kind of exercise the muscles of sharing my present emotions with God, through writing, writing them down. I feel like that, that kind of bolsters that they exist, that I see the words I just wrote. I made them with the pencil, they're valid. They are heard and really just kind of live in that reality of your emotional state, and I think reality, living in reality is a very firm biblical idea. Right? It's just being in reality, and we've we've really, really grown to, to not try to ignore our reality. And I think we can even do like the somatic as well like writing to God about, I feel this way, I feel it in my shoulders, I feel it in my stomach, wherever it is. And really, that's just, I think that's, that's helped me in my relationship with God, but also my relationship with my body and my emotions. Right, because God has given us this body after all, and the way it's created, according to the Bible, it's fearfully and wonderfully made. So our body is not our enemy. Our body is there to help us the same way, our brain is here to help us. And it doesn't always come out conveniently for us, but befriending these parts of ourselves. can be so so life changing? Yeah, yeah. And, and maybe another one is talking to save people. And what I mean by save people is people that don't try to fix your problems for you, people that will just, you know, listen and reflect back to you. Because I'm a firm believer in like, when we take things out of our mind and say it it, like, it brings it to light, it's like, you know, like skeletons are only scared if the lights are off. But once you turn the lights on, once you say things and you hear it, it loses a lot of the fear power, I should say has, yeah, absolutely. But But you definitely they have to be safe people to share with and, and sometimes, you know, like the wanting to fix others problems, you know, that's that's your way of controlling and manipulating people. So yeah, that's that's one day just kind of look out for is only share with people that can just listen and reflect. Yeah, yeah. And I think to that idea, you know, we we talk about the concept of a core team, a team of people that are there for you that are committed to, to seeing God's purposes succeed, and what he's called you to, and I think that it would really be helpful to identify if there are even people on your core team, that are that kind of person, right, a safe person to be known and to be seen and to be vulnerable in that way. And then of course, a professional counselor, I think, can be a really helpful resource for some people, you know, because like you said, Alina, there is some work people can do themselves to, to be more aware to notice, like, what is happening in my body? Why could that be? But especially if that question leads back to something that was deeply painful or traumatic, that might be something you want to unpack with, with somebody who's trained in understanding the ways you've developed in life that don't actually help you. Now, that helped you then or something, I think I would like to add, that therapist is not going to be a doctor where you go, and the doctor gives you a diagnosis, and then gives you a prescription for antibiotics, you take it for 10 days, and you're done. You go to a therapist, and just because somebody is a therapist, doesn't mean they are going to be a good fit for you. Yes. And so as a client, I encouraging you have the right to ask questions to make sure is this person capable of going where you would need them to go with you? Like, can they comfortably bring in faith and hold space for that? And also, are they gonna come alongside in a clinically sound way, but also in a way that works for you. On your journey, this the relationship between clients and therapists, they can, and eventually, they become very deeply intimate, because there's so much shared that a lot of people are not going to share outside of the therapy room. And so asking questions and knowing that a therapist is not going to tell you what to do. They're gonna give you education, they will ask you questions, they will offer resources, but it is the client's responsibility to find a way how they want to own their journey. Now, that's a good point. And I like what you were saying earlier, Alena, and I think maybe we just need to acknowledge that fundraising, through the challenge that it presents could really force us into a season of formation, a season of growth, that maybe we wouldn't have experienced otherwise. Yeah. And I think even Lee spoke to that a bit and saying that there's actually opportunity here in recognizing these things like opportunity for growth. And also I guess, as for people on the field The health of their support is really a positive correlation to how helpful they can be on the field because they're not going to be totally there. If they're worried about money, right? They're not going to be able to help their team. There's going to be conflict on the team about where do we go eat? I can't afford that. Things like that. And then really just, I think, just their overall emotional and spiritual health. Obviously, it's also going to affect the longevity of your ministry as well. Yeah. Absolutely. Because what is not healed? We keep reenacting it. Yes. Yeah. And it's gonna happen over and over and over again, it will come out in relationships and work life and on the field. There's work but there's a lot of relationship. Yes, happening. That is the work. Yeah, times. And just going back a little bit, I'm a firm believer that any experience can be a growth, even going through trauma. We can go through also post traumatic growth. Hopefully, fundraising isn't too traumatizing. Hopefully not, but it can be scary. It'd be scary. Yeah, yes. Well, so we leave give us the homework again. So it's, it's look at the four quadrants that we talked about, kind of do some some processing, maybe even do some journaling. Yes. Gonna reflect on what are some emotions that come up? Yeah, I think journaling is really, really powerful. Just because you, you think about it, then you write it. And you see it there. It's valid, whatever it is. Yeah. Or if you're an external processor, find a really good friend who is going to be listening. Yes, yes. Yeah. Which I think tied to his other piece of homework was to find safe people to talk with. Yeah, good. Yeah. And if anyone is interested in the somatic and the nervous system, just Googling polyvagal theory, Steven Porges. He was the one who a long time ago, I think 30 years ago, found the connection between our emotional states and our physical states. What was the name of the book again? It's polyvagal theory. That's a pretty heavy loaded. Can you spell? We'll link it in the show notes. Holly is like multiple and vagal. Because the vagal nervous branch, it's the biggest nerve in our body. It's also called the wandering nerve. It goes into all the major organs. Interesting. Yeah. Like his hands and everything. So that's why that's why my stomach tightens. Yeah. When I get nervous. And you know, watching football games, right, the anticipation you're activated, are you gonna need to jump in and win for them, Arkansas Razorbacks? And you can just Google it. There are so many YouTube videos where it's a lot simpler than just reading the book. But if you want to read the book, go ahead. And I mentioned, Rachael Cruz, her book, know yourself know your money and then Peters caseros Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. And then Dan allander, on his narrative. So your homework is also to find those books and read them. Absolutely. Yeah. And then write reports and then Yeah, send this report. To Heather. Winchell at present. Yeah, that's great. Well, we so appreciate you guys taking the time to come in studio with us, which is exciting, and just share of your experience and your expertise. So thank you. Okay, guys, so we always ask one question at the end of every episode. If you had $10,000 right now and you had to give it away today. Who or what would you give it to? So I would actually hope this is a correct answer. I would my wife and I would like to bring the money with us go to a missionary team somewhere and then bless them like take them out to eat take them to a resort for a few days. And that would be the way I would like to use that money. Nice. Yes. So plane tickets. Plane tickets lobster like yes, sushi like all lavish. lavish, fun, man. Yes. And what I know you well, if I was given the money, and I would have to give it away, which probably makes it easy addition. Yeah, condition sometimes makes things easy. I don't have to make a decision. cut that one out. am I considering where I'm from? I would probably send it all to Ukraine. Yeah, yeah. And so they can buy whatever they need to be able to get through the blackouts. And, yeah, clothes for kids. And I know a lot of people. I don't know, getting through the winter. Yeah. Well, guys, it's been awesome to have you here with us. Thank you for taking the time and delving into a really deep subject and I hope it's going to be helpful. I think it will be helpful to our listeners. Yeah, there was a lot of potential rabbit trails, but we did pretty good. I think we did really good. I don't think I went down a single one. Yeah. Go Team.