It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising

12. Pastor/Author Steve Cuss on "Trading Anxiety for Rest"

• Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan • Season 2 • Episode 12

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Anxiety, with its different catalysts and durations, is part of the human experience.  Everyone can relate to the disruption. 

Developing the ability to recognize anxiety (in ourselves and others), and taking steps to move through it is critical for healthy missionaries, healthy teams, and healthy ministry. Steve Cuss, renowned author, pastor, and coach, provides a well-rounded perspective on anxiety and offers practical encouragement to move away from bondage and into the rest of Jesus.

You can find Steve at stevecusswords.com and purchase his book Managing Leadership Anxiety online.

Resources recommended by Steve:
*Todd Bolsinger Books
*The Leaders Journey

If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your network. Follow It’s Not About the Money for more insightful discussions on faith-based fundraising and support raising!

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Andy Brennan:

Okay, either way is okay maybe

Heather Winchell:

the lighting is not fantastic here and I'll turn I'll plug it in. Hold on,

Andy Brennan:

okay can you see us? You can see me? Yep. Okay.

Steve Cuss:

Yeah, mine spinning. Yeah

Andy Brennan:

there's pros and cons to video the con could be well, that connectivity it might cause a little bit of lag so we can just try it. Sure. The Pro though of course is we can if I need to say something you just say something we can interrupt with hands versus just voices. Yeah.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, can

Steve Cuss:

you and I just need to figure out how to go in discord and change my

Andy Brennan:

your videos sorry, it's such a hassle.

Steve Cuss:

Yeah, yeah. All right. It's okay, sorry, guys. I don't know how to tell discord. How to get my proper camera. It's chosen a wrong Oh, here we go. Here's a setting Okay. Video.

Andy Brennan:

20 hit record. Are we good? We're good. Well, it's not the end of the world. We know you're on a on a schedule.

Heather Winchell:

We definitely want to respect your time. And we can keep our video on so that you can see us but it's okay. If we're not not able to get yours working. Okay.

Andy Brennan:

You have a podcast as well. I'm wondering what service you guys what you use?

Steve Cuss:

I use whatsapp right now. And then we'll be switching to Riverside in the fall.

Heather Winchell:

Okay. We've tried Riverside, and we debated but we had when we tried Riverside, the quality wasn't quite as good. But maybe we should give it another try.

Andy Brennan:

Maybe we should tinker with the setting some more.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah. Well, Mr. Koz, thank you so much for your time are really excited to be speaking with you today. And were you able to did you get to the shownotes that we sent along with some of the questions that we had in mind?

Steve Cuss:

I believe I did. But I think it's a better experience for you. If you just ask what you want. Like, sure he being prepared is not always as good as off the cuff. I think,

Heather Winchell:

hey, hey, that's fine with us. Did you by chance, see the document that just gives some parameters for the way the way we record? Or would it be helpful for us to just go over that now?

Steve Cuss:

Yeah, you're welcome to Yep, I got from Chris, the discord link. And the idea that I need to spend a few minutes setting it up. But 10 She may have had more in there for me that I'm sorry if I missed

Andy Brennan:

Oh, that's okay. No worries.

Heather Winchell:

That's completely fine. Basically, we we sent a just kind of like an introduction to our podcast, letting you know what we're about and kind of the premise of our show and our audience. And also just saying that we are very casual, we have a very casual recording style. So as opposed to doing a lot of takes, we obviously just keep rolling. And if somebody coughs we stop and then restart again. Or if you miss speak or say something a little bit differently than you'd like to then we just pause and restart and we can edit out anything that we need to. I do a lot of editing on the back end, but we just kind of keep the recording rolling. Anything you would add Andy?

Andy Brennan:

I think you got it. Okay. Yeah.

Heather Winchell:

And like we said, we definitely want to respect your time. So we will unless you have any questions for us. Before we get started. We'll just dive in.

Steve Cuss:

Okay, sounds very good. Okay, wonderful.

Heather Winchell:

So I'm going to I'm going to intro us and then kick it to you. Okay, sounds good. Okay, great. All right. Welcome back to it's not about the money. Many who are raising personal support are doing so for full time ministry work, and often within the context of a team. Developing the ability to recognize anxiety and self and others and to take steps to move through that anxiety is a critical element of healthy missionaries, healthy teams and healthy ministry. We would love to become more self aware and outline a paradigm for managing anxiety and today we have a guest with us that is going to help us do that. Andy, tell us more about our guest

Andy Brennan:

Yeah, absolutely. We guys we are thrilled to welcome Pastor Steve cus to the show today. I first stumbled upon him when I was pointed. I was directed to right now media and I saw his video series I'm on right now media about managing anxiety. And it was, it was fascinating, very new stuff for me. So our guest, Steve has our guest grew up in Perth, Western Australia. And so you'll pick that up very quickly as he's begins to talk but has lived for quite a while here in America and resides in Colorado right now. Got his got to start professionally as a newly when he was newly married as a hospice and trauma chaplain, which sounds to me very stressful. So, we're talking to him about anxiety today. And then while he was kind of swimming in this anxiety rich environment, he was introduced to something called family systems theory. So that undergirds a lot of his approach. And so listeners, if you hear some unfamiliar, or new syntax, some vocabulary, that may be the context that it's coming from. Steve has also written a book called Managing leadership anxiety back in 2019. On my second listen through, and have really been enjoying it. Steve also has a background in Clinical Pastoral Education. And he's a pastor now at Discovery church in Broomfield, Colorado. I think I've hit the high points there.

Steve Cuss:

Yep, that's great.

Andy Brennan:

First question for me is is? How does the first job for you right out of the red out of the cannon? In this environment, how does that mold your understanding of anxiety?

Steve Cuss:

The big question, great question. Yeah. Man, it Moses so much, because I think it's the context of that job like, I mean, if we want to be playful about something that's really serious, if you think about the job of the chaplain, no one's sitting around their hospital room bored, and thinking to themselves, you know, what would make this the more Sunday, let's get the chaplain in here, only ever calling you in the absolute worst moments of their life. And I think there's this, there's like the catalyst of the bootcamp of death, trauma, cancer, that just stripped away all pretense. And you quickly run into yourself, that's what I experienced is, I thought that I was going to serve people in need, but what that really was was discovering all that I'm carrying into the room that I have to manage, in order to be able to serve people in need. So there is something unique and powerful about those huge forces of death and trauma that, I think help you locate your anxiety for sure.

Andy Brennan:

And we are a podcast focused on individual ministry fundraising. So I think I have to ask right off the bat, do you? Do you have any experience in the fundraising world either personally, or as a church leader?

Steve Cuss:

Oh, my goodness. We were a portable, tiny church when I came. And you know, there, I was the lead pastor for 16 years at our church, I'm still there. But we have a new lead pastor now that I'm doing this work full time to work on doing with you guys here. So I've led four capital campaigns to get us from, you know, being portable in an elementary cafeteria to our own building on 16 acres of land. And I mean, honestly, guys, two of those campaigns, or even three of them, were brutal. Because when you're young, you're full of ambition and faith and excitement. And then like, well, one of our campaigns was through the 2002 1008. Nine, housing crisis. Yes. And we went from dreaming about buildings and making sure we could keep our land for example. So yeah, lots of anxiety around fundraising and lots of extra energy, right. When you particularly if you're doing a capital focus, fundraising endeavor, boy, it can be really acting on your energy and emotional health.

Heather Winchell:

I can imagine. Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Brennan:

And I just I just think it's so important to address this idea of anxiety and fundraising because so many people are just terrified. They may have they may sense a call, they may sense a desire to do something missionally conditionally but just can't bring themselves to cross that threshold into fundraising. Yeah.

Steve Cuss:

And I always, I always actually enjoyed asking people for money. I know that. That perfect. I love being financially generous. I was not highly paid as a pastor. I was paid no I'm a pastor's salary, don't get me wrong, I was very content with my pay. But relative to my income, I love being generous. And I think that did allow me to invite other people into generosity because I've seen the difference that makes I mean, in our church, we were the first church in our city to build a building and move into it in 26 years. And while we were raising money for our church in the United States, we were sending money to Paraguay and Kenya, for people to build churches and do ministry, there was incredible, it was incredible that we got to be part of it. And I drive by that building several times a week, you know, whether I'm going to the office, they'll just driving by and just to look at it and say, man, God, God used me to be a small part of that is, I think, an incredible privilege.

Heather Winchell:

Amen. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you, you highlighted just the opportunity to be part of that is such a privilege. And really, we think that fundraising is a partnership, it is inviting people into what God is up to, for their joy, and for their good. But like Andy said, anxiety can really put a stop to people moving forward and extending the invitation. Maybe in overthinking, should they even be doing this? So we really think it's important to try to speak to how people can understand and identify anxiety in themselves, and then how to move through that. And so we're Yeah, we're so excited to have your, your voice as we discuss that. Yeah. So

Andy Brennan:

the subtitle of your book is, is managing anxiety, yours and others? So can you talk to us about this concept? Maybe this is new to some of our listeners, like how do you manage someone else's anxiety?

Steve Cuss:

Right, what you're trying to do is notice the spread of anxiety between people. So you're not trying to reach into another person and like manage it, but you are trying to lead and exist in such a way that you're connected presence can be as infectious as the anxiety is, like, if you've ever been even just if you think of an average team meeting, whether you're talking about an organizational team, like a staff, or you can even talk about a sporting team, just really any group of people that are doing work together. What you can train people to do is notice how anxiety is spreading between those people. Who is always using the most words, who gets the final say, who never speaks up domestic called upon? Yeah, these are just the three simple or even a fourth question, who has their own secret meeting after the meeting? You know, they don't speak up in the meeting, but they have a private meeting and not all a meeting. Yeah, these are just simple examples of how anxiety spreads. So if you can notice that going on, what tends to happen is we tend to react to this kind of situation, but we don't know how to respond to it. So it's really about setting cultural values of how we treat each other how we talk to each other. So that we can all kind of relax into connection with each other rather than being caught up in reactivity, which is what typically happens without a healthy leader or somebody else in the room that's helping people manage it. Yeah. Good.

Andy Brennan:

You talked about in your book, how sometimes anxiety can be an early detection system for misplaced dependents. wondering if you could unpack that a little bit for us.

Steve Cuss:

Yeah, I missed that last phrase. Sorry. Any misplaced one?

Andy Brennan:

dependents?

Steve Cuss:

Place dependents, like when you're depending on something other than God, you Right,

Andy Brennan:

right. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Steve Cuss:

Yeah. You know, there's all kinds of different anxieties, even clinically, you know, There's well over a dozen but there's one particular kind of anxiety is what's clinically called chronic anxiety. And it's fascinating because actually, there are several anxieties that are based on something real, like grief is a form of anxiety, and it's based on a real loss. Yes, Corona, is a form of anxiety and it's based on a real horrific event and your past. shooting it. Like if you lose a child in a playground, or if you have to slam on the brakes, when you're driving in a car with an avoid an accident. That's based on something real. But chronic anxiety is always based on something false. It's always based on an assumption, like an assumption I have about myself, or assumption I'm holding about you. Were an assumption you're holding about me and this is how you can see it's contagious. chronic anxiety is the only kind of anxiety that's contagious. And anytime we are living out of assumption, we're living into something false. That God is true. God is real God is concretely true and we relate to God in concrete reality or whatever. You know what Jesus says in truth, you can know truth and truth can set you free. Yes. So I think if you can live And to notice that you're chronically anxious, it can be a warning system that you've stopped depending on God for your well being. One of the easiest types of people to notice this, then would be a perfectionist, if somebody is a perfectionist, they have assumptions about themselves and the world and the way things must be for them to be okay. If you even just picture encouraging a perfectionist to intentionally send an email with three spelling errors in it, they would recoil in horror at them. In fact, when I do my workshops, I can see people, some people recoil in horror, like I'm torturing them. And when I tell them to do that, and some people look at me like I'm highly suspicious. That's because when I tell a perfectionist, Hey, make a mistake on purpose, send an email to somebody that really matters and put a mistake in it. What their chronic anxiety is doing is selling them the assumption that the world is about to fall apart. If they do that, when in reality, sending one email with a few mistakes, not much is really going to happen. Even if that person calls you, and points out the mistakes, the sun is still going to shine the next day, you're not going to lose your reputation. The chronic anxiety sells us in the moment, doom and destruction. And that's why a lot of people burn out is because it never addressed the false needs, the assumptions about themselves, they've never wrangled the inner critic with the gospel, so they let their inner critic have more way with them than they let God now I don't say that. But I don't mean to shame anybody by saying that I just think that's the way we are. I'm interested in helping people notice anxiety so they can encounter God and relax into God's presence more than they're doing now.

Heather Winchell:

I really love the way you articulated that I really like the word wrangle, you know, wrangling the inner critic with the gospel. Because I think what that implies is, you're not just, you know, taking a false idea, and then just kind of, you know, whitewashing over it with a true idea, you have to wrestle with it, you have to, to kind of get under it and figure out what why am I feeling this way and then apply the gospel, maybe over and over and over. As opposed to just kind of once and done, you know, dispelling that anxiety,

Andy Brennan:

it implies kind of a bringing into submission headlock. Yeah, kind of picture for me. Yeah,

Steve Cuss:

it definitely. This work is definitely more about intentionality and courage than it is skill, that's for sure.

Andy Brennan:

You also mentioned in the book that your anxiety is often triggered when we need something that we don't actually need. You just mentioned some false needs. How can we possibly apply this to raising funds for the first time? What are some false needs that might just be generated if we're in a fundraising environment?

Steve Cuss:

Really interesting question because some areas of fundraising I'm not sure. chronic anxiety, like, I know, in my case, when our church was young, and we were struggling, we were portable, we've been portable, a long time. And you know, I'm in the Denver Metro area, it's a tough place, which which plants to thrive and established, a lot of churches around us had closed. What I was doing is I was like, placing too much pressure on my sermons, for example. I had a couple of friends that worked on my church stuff. It's almost like, I started to believe that my sermon performance effected them being able to be paid based on some convoluted belief about attendance and success. Sermons attracting people like I got quite complicated. So I do think, money, you know, is such a source of security for people. I think most people who are fundraising themselves are probably underpaid. I know. For me, for example, I definitely came from a poverty mindset. And so I think there's a lot wrapped up in there. What I'm interested in doing with people is exploring their assumptions that they attach to things. So it's hard to answer specifically, because what I would typically do is have someone for an hour or so or a peer group, and we would dig into the meaning that they are attaching to fundraising and money would help them name their source of belief for what it means about them if they don't hit their fundraising targets, things like that, right.

Andy Brennan:

Now, that's helpful. Yeah. I have a well, I guess I won't dig into a personal story, because this person might listen to the podcast. So you want to move on to a different question or shall I ask one more?

Heather Winchell:

Sure. Okay, so you also We use in the book The term giants on our shoulders to describe messages from our past that we bring into a stressful moment. So maybe that's connected to kind of these assumptions that people are making that you just referenced. How would you explain this to someone anxious about fundraising? And is this? Sorry? I'll finish with what Andy had written? And is this similar to the story we tell ourselves infecting our reality?

Steve Cuss:

Hmm, really great question. Technically, the giants on your shoulders are a subset of the story, you tell yourself that it's probably helpful to think of the storyteller stuff is this rather large, complex, twisted set of spider webs, you know, that comes from your family of origin and your experiences, specifically seeking, you know, the Giants and your shoulders can go several ways. It could be like, let's say that you're a pastor fundraising. And it could be that your father was a pastor and your grandfather, and then you find yourself making assumptions about your capacity based on their capacity. The giants on your shoulders, financial experts, or people have high means in your organization. And you are placing meaning on your competence, based on what you know about their competence. I know in my case, I had to raise money as a brand new young lead pastor, while learning about the extremely intricate and challenging political process of getting a building approved in our city, we happen to have for a variety of reasons, a very complex land zoning structure. And so these are things you know, who knew when I went into seminary that learning to understand local city politics, land zoning, the power of a well organized neighborhood that wants to keep open space, all these things. So we knew that that would be part of it. And so what would happen is we would run and we would raise funds naively, not realizing the battle ahead. Which means next time we raised funds, those giants were on my shoulder saying, Hey, you, I told you, so you should have known better I've done data, that will be a tangible way it can happen. But you know, a lot of people who are fundraising, they just need to get to the bottom of what they believe in their mission. And what is keeping them from having an inspiring or an inviting conversation with someone or a group of people about about what they do.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah, I just think about some people. As they're in like a follow up process, let's say they've had a call with somebody, they've invited somebody to partnership. And then that person maybe says, Yes, I'd like to, but then never commits, or they call them back and they go to them. I wonder if there's any kind of story that we tell ourselves that that some untruth that can kind of creep in, in fact, paralyze and start telling them some some false truths, or some something.

Steve Cuss:

I definitely found in my case, it was really important to disconnect, personal friendship or personal relationship from the financial ask, I'll never forget, we did a fundraiser with I had to put together a fundraising Task Force and knows everything from event planning to mail out mailing out letters, it was a whole deal, several months process. And I asked a couple in the church that I really enjoy these wonderful people. And I emailed them and said, Would you consider being on this task force, here are the jobs that we're looking for. And what happened is the husband and wife replied to each other without me in an internal dialogue between them about what they thought about the request. But then when it was time to give me a reply, one of them just forwarded me the whole thread. Oh, geez. So I got to read through them kind of expressing that man, it just feels like Steve asks a lot, like, and so finally, the last line was, I said, No last time, it's your turn. And that, you know, that hurt, that hurt to get that and of course, the person that sent it didn't mean for me to see the internal conversation. But it was also very helpful for me to realize that these are really good people, and they're doing and maybe I am stretching people too thin. And it was important for me to do my own work about my own anxiety because without doing my work, I would be tiptoeing around them, which would make everything worse for them and me, rather than managing my anxiety and going to them and apologizing and laughing, you know, like saying, I am so sorry that you feel overtaxed by me. I never want that to be your primary experience of me. And hate. I don't know if you knew this, but the husband sent me the whole thing like I just thought, let's get it out me. Because I want us to be well with each other. So I do think sometimes when we're fundraising we attach personal well being personal relationship. it because I've been in those situations guys where people have made promises they don't keep. Yeah. And oftentimes what they do, I've had three or four of these circumstances, people will tell me something because they want me to feel financial relief. In the moment, they'll say we're gonna sell a car and donate it. Fantastic. That'd be amazing. But then they go home and talk to a spouse or something, and they're not going to sell it can't donate it. Yeah, well, now they feel shame. And they're avoiding me. I generally give people Mulligan's on that kind of thing, because I think our relationship is much more important than then getting that piece of money, you know, because I've had that same experience of being ghosted. That's an awful situation. Yeah.

Andy Brennan:

What you mentioned to like, in the absence of information, we can connect the dots in the most pathological way possible. So that that speaks to me of if I don't know why you're not talking to me, or if I don't know why you haven't followed through, I can start to assume dramatic things.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, like, they don't like you or they're mad at you, or Yeah, yeah.

Andy Brennan:

What did I do? They were just trying to turn to appease me. Yeah.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah. And did you have a question with that?

Andy Brennan:

I think the question is, like, how can how do we see some examples of that, like, of when we missing information, we kind of fill in the blanks? How can we avoid this kind of poison of assumption?

Steve Cuss:

Oh, man, it's hard to avoid assumption. But it really helps to recognize like, Andy, in that story, you did a really good job of noticing your assumption now that you've noticed that and you've named it now you had this power to decide, what am I going to do about or am I going to test this assumption through the gospel and see if it's true, maybe you'll decide to talk to those people, maybe you won't, but we get anxious when we let assumptions grow in our head. So one of the tools, we teach other spaces of anxiety, we teach people how to notice anxiety and specific spaces. And one of the most powerful spaces is what we call the third space, which is the space inside the other person. We train people in our workshops, to notice when your brain is in someone else's brain, you're wondering what they think, what they think of you, you're making meaning out of what you don't know. And it can be liberating to learn to notice when you are in someone else's brain, and then you can get out of their brain. So then, beyond that point, I mean, I made that sound easier than it is. But beyond that point, that's when you get to decide through prayer or counsel, am I going to talk to this person about it? Or my the primary problem like, like, you don't want to be the kind of person that's always needing assurance with somebody? Yeah, right. That's usually a sign that you need to do more third place work, you're living too much in other people's brain? Because the fact is, most of us don't think about each other that much. Yeah, think about ourselves the most. And so just learning to relax and trust that this is God's person can can really, really helped tremendously.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah, that I'm really intrigued by that. That sounds the third space. Interesting.

Andy Brennan:

Maybe you should go to one of the workshops. Maybe I should, yeah.

Heather Winchell:

So we know that, you know that dealing with anxiety and with triggers, takes time. There's no magic pill, or no formula. But do you have any immediate suggestions for someone that might be struggling with anxiety? Or fundraising? You know, I guess one that comes to mind is maybe just sit down and kind of write out your thoughts, because maybe in those thoughts, we can uncover some assumptions. But I'm just I'm just curious what some of your kind of first blind steps would be in helping somebody that seems caught up in anxiety to be paralyzed by

Andy Brennan:

to inaction? Yeah.

Steve Cuss:

A really great question. And I think it's such an important question, because I think your suggestion of writing down my thoughts is a wonderful that the general rule, we use this to externalize meaning, don't let it rattle around in your head. And so writing it out is a great tool. And then the more advanced workers can do you have a group of peers that you trust, just two to five people that might and you could simply meet with them and say, would I need to tell you what I'm anxious about? Would you please listen to my assumptions? It's actually most of us are pretty good at hearing assumptions in another person and not very good at singing in ourselves. Yeah, so maybe the more advanced work would be to get a group and and vulnerably say, I'm anxious about fundraising. I don't know why. I'm just going to start talking about it. Here's what I'm doing. Here's what I'm worried about. And then the peer group we've done this to a number of times a peer groups actually writing out the assumptions. And then at the end is giving them back to you like, is this true this idea that people are getting worn out by fundraising? Because one of the you know, it's kind of related to the giants on your shoulders, but it's also like a same species syndrome. Like, sometimes, if you've got an organization of 100 people and four have expressed the Dead Tired of fundraising, you attribute that weariness to the whole organization, you know, oh, man, this whole organization? No, it's really full of people. And they have every right to be tired of it. But that doesn't mean Everyone's tired of it. So that's there's an assumption.

Andy Brennan:

And that's, that's the same groupies syndrome, right? Yeah, that's

Steve Cuss:

right. Yeah, yeah. For people are tired. Everyone, everyone in my organization side before people are talking to everyone else. Know Your opinion is infecting everyone. All of those are assumptions. I've certainly found great encouragement, and getting clear on the vision is what we are doing doesn't really matter. I know 17 years ago, I committed to our congregation, obviously, my fundraising context is a local church. I told him, I said, we will only ask you to give the things that really, really matter. And I feel like we kept that promise. Yeah, we always tried to sum it up and say, Listen, if you're already giving, if you already generously giving, I'm not asking you to do another thing. What I'm talking to is those of you who maybe have not, you're not doing the rest of us. So I'll often say something like that, like actually acknowledge there are people in the room that are totally doing what we're asking, and we want to thank you, we're not putting our hand out, the more that's helped some of those moves were helpful.

Andy Brennan:

You talk about how someone can be self aware, but still unhealthy. I wonder what that might look like and how that might impact someone's ability to fundraise.

Steve Cuss:

Yeah, the most common, unhealthy self aware person is the person that says some form of, well, this is just the way I am and you have to deal with it. They're aware, but they don't care. And I'm always thinking, you know, honestly, man, we wish you deal with it, you would deal with it, that means we wouldn't have to deal with anymore. That's very common in a lot of organizations, especially with like a type A driven leader. It's not uncommon that that leader is generating the anxiety and everyone else is carrying it. And that that leader is saying, Well, everyone just has to deal because this is the way it has to be. And I'm like, No, it's not good enough. You can actually pursue health. And you can help your team be well, by working on yourself, like you are the one causing most of the turnover in this organization, for example. So that would be your plastic. self aware don't care kind of person.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah. So it could be in fundraising. I'm just shy, I'm introverted. I'm not good at this.

Steve Cuss:

Is that's actually a really, that's a really interesting example is the opposite extreme, not that bold personality, but that diminishes themselves. Yeah, I think I think that would be another example. It's like, well, yeah, but the vision is here, and the job has to be done. And it's your role, you know, so you can manage that and learn to get good at it. Yeah, yeah.

Heather Winchell:

So you know, earlier, you were speaking to how chronic anxiety is contagious. I'm curious whether, you know, let's say that somebody goes into a meeting with a potential partner, and they're they're feeling a sense of anxiety. Would you say that their anxiety is contagious in that, like space? Or when you say that that kind of anxiety is contagious? Is it more like people that are? Maybe? Hold on, let me let me think of what I'm trying to say. Okay, I'll back up. Sorry. So earlier, you mentioned that chronic anxiety is contagious, and that it is the only kind of anxiety that's contagious. I'm curious how, you know, going into a partnership meeting, if you're feeling some anxiety is the person who is raising financial support. What might that look like? Would that be an instance where that could be contagious? Or how might that influence that conversation?

Steve Cuss:

Yes, for sure. If you are the one fundraising, and you're meeting with a donor and you have not managed your anxiety, it's highly likely that the donor will catch it. And that can look differently. Maybe a simple example would be if you've ever been, let's say in a church service, and maybe you've got an intern or person who saw grandma's being developed and they're up, singing a solo and playing a piano, right? Just kind of imagine a situation. And let's face it, they really need people and they're really bad at it. You know what I'm talking about, like this

Andy Brennan:

skill level is just rough. I think we've all been there. What happens

Steve Cuss:

is the whole congregation starts cheering for them like, oh, man, I hope they do. And so that person on the stage is no longer leading the congregation in worship. Now the congregation has switched and caught the anxiety, and just hoping this young intern succeeds. And then at the end of that performance, the young intern gets a rousing round of applause. Which then falsely says to that intern, you did much better than you think that would be a Yeah, a simple example, in the same idea that if an anxious fundraiser walks into a donor, the anxiety can get really sophisticated because the donor can start cheering the leader on if that anxious fundraisers insecure, or some people are seeing them when they're very apologetic. They don't know how just to sit there calmly and say, here's what we're doing. Here's what we need. And I would it would mean so much, if you'd consider helping us with it. And you help us you know, there are Hey, I know that they're using all these disclaimers and apologies, that will absolutely lower connection and increase anxiety in the donor.

Heather Winchell:

Right? Well, and then the donor is no longer free to be just responding to the Spirit, because they're probably now caught up in like, the dynamic. Yeah, the dynamic at play. Yeah.

Steve Cuss:

Yeah. And sometimes that dynamic is the donor leaves irritated, which is another that's another form of anxiety. It's not always that they feel sorry, they're like, look, get it together, you know, I'll invest my money in a different place. So irritability and frustration, and what we call cut off would be another way that that donor caught the anxiety.

Heather Winchell:

Interesting, you know, I am really curious what the 12 forms of anxiety are, would you mind just listing them?

Steve Cuss:

The 12 forms?

Heather Winchell:

Thank you. So 12

Steve Cuss:

can't list them all right now, but for example, like five or six would be. So you've got a group of anxieties that are in what's called the DSM, this is anxieties that need to be diagnosed by a psychologist or a psychiatrist. So depression, anxiety disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, bipolar disorder, paranoid schizophrenia, those kinds of things, or old types of anxiety that as a general rule, there's a number of them, but what they have in common is they require mental health medication, then a separate anxiety would be trauma, PTSD. Another one would be grief. And another one would be what's clinically called acute anxiety, which is, when you're in danger, or your life is in danger, or you might be so you lose a child in the playground, you you're out jogging in an open space, you see a snake, those are all acute anxieties. And then chronic anxiety is a long term, reactionary anxiety that's based on false beliefs and false need. So that first category of mental health anxieties, that's where I tend to punt a little bit because I'm a pastor and not a doctor. But right, you can hear that there's a number. But what's helpful to know is everyone's talking about anxiety nowadays, which I think is a very good thing. But it would be more fruitful if we would talk about anxieties, because we're using one word to cover so much territory. And each of those anxieties operate under a different set of rules. And that's why I say, look, there's like a dozen of them. Which one are we talking about here and my field being chronic anxiety.

Andy Brennan:

So So talk to us about how internal anxiety could actually block us from maybe trusting God?

Steve Cuss:

Hmm. Yeah, so theologically, what's happening. If chronic anxiety happens, because you have a false need, then what you're doing theologically in that moment is you're depending on yourself, not on God for your well being or for what the Bible calls Shalom. If you you know, in the New Testament language, or in the book of Romans, Paul uses a lot of righteousness language. I think in the 21st century, we've stripped that word down to meaning, justification by faith through Jesus death on the cross. I believe with every fiber of my being, that Jesus died to justify me and make me well with God. But actually in Scripture, righteousness and Shalom is such a broader invitation. And simply asking God to forgive my sins and give me the gift of eternal life. It's really more about a daily reality. So what's happening is, is when I am chronically anxious when I need to get up perfectly right or, you know, I won't pick up perfectionist in my case, one of my top needs is people pleasing. If I feel like someone's disappointed in me, I get chronically anxious. Because in that moment, I'm believing that I must have your approval for me to be well, or in New Testament language for me to be righteous. And so I've become self righteous, I'm depending on myself. And anytime we're depending on ourselves to be, well, we're no longer aware of God, because we blocked God out. So it's a simple idea that I can relax into relating to you, when I remember that Jesus died to free me from meeting your good opinion, I actually can do my work without needing your approval. Now, having your approval is great. I think being a courteous person is great. But I'm no longer in the tyrannous grip of approval, affection, I can do things well, they don't have to be perfect anymore. Just five core needs. Perfection approval, being there for people in need, is the third one. So some of this is me as well, some of us cannot tell the difference between someone's need, and our need to be needed. The fourth one is having the answer. Like that me as well, if I know something, I need you to know that I know it, I need you to think I'm smart and need to be okay. And then the fifth one is Control. Control. There are just certain people that if they're not in control, they get really anxious that I'll just list them again, in the order we normally teach them is control perfection, having the answer being there for others, and people's approval. If you think about these five character traits, these actually happen to be God's character traits. God's in control, so we don't have to be God is perfect. So we are free to make mistakes God is knows everything there is to know that we get to be curious. In each of these five, there's a way that God manifests them in beautiful ways. But there's a way that we twist them into anxiety, but also many to the I visit human size equivalent to the idea that I don't have to know and I get to learn. That's incredibly freeing. But when I need to know the answer, like if I'm in a fundraising environment, and I'm asking someone for money, and they asked me a question about my organization, and I don't know the answer, yeah, I go into shame or I get defensive. Because I'm no longer connected to that person. I'm now reacting out of my post needs. That's quite a long answer, guys. But that's like a complex reason why not chronic anxiety is such a powerful force and stopping us from connecting the dots. Perfect.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah, I can see the way that maybe fundraising challenges, although almost all of those years, like puts those into stress puts it in the pressure cooker, all those areas? Yeah,

Steve Cuss:

for sure.

Heather Winchell:

So for you know, for most people, fundraising is well outside their wheelhouse. And, you know, we've talked about anxieties coming out of false needs. How often do you see anxiety coming out of Hold on? Hold on, let me let me think more before I ask this Yeah. Sorry, I'm not sure if there's a differentiator between a false need and like perceived inadequacy. I'm looking at your line. Oh, go ahead. This feeling

Steve Cuss:

of inadequacy is usually based out of a false need. Yeah, like I have found it helpful to blame God for my lot in life that I'm kind of being tongue in cheek, but it's almost like, Man, I feel inadequate to be the lead pastor of this church. But God you got me into this. So you know, that kind of idea. Like I want you a Academy is to learn and grow, do the best they can and seek wisdom. And that's all I can do. And I have to learn to forgive myself for my leadership mistakes. So yeah, inadequacy is, I think every leader battles inadequacy.

Andy Brennan:

But it can be really healthy, to tackle things that you're not adequate for.

Steve Cuss:

I mean, you know, like, Christian, organizational leadership is the only job description that requires faith to pull it off. Right.

Andy Brennan:

Right. Yeah. Do you want to say that last question. Got me an asset, don't for it. Okay. So speaking of adequacy, I think for most people just like you didn't learn about like zoning building development 101 in seminary, they also don't teach a lot of fundraising as an undergraduate classwork and under an undergraduate coursework. So for most people, fundraising is well outside of their wheelhouse. So can you just kind of as our last question, you're talking to us about the advantages of actually tackling something that we don't know how to do well, and how maybe actually fundraising could be a formative process.

Steve Cuss:

I really think, you know, to antidote to anxiety, or curiosity, and faith, I feel like organizational leadership grew my faith more than anything else I've ever done in my life, like, the faith and trust in God required is off the charts. And instead of focusing on what I don't know, and feeling inadequate, which I was, you know, I was not up to the task. But what's also true is, no one was knocking down our door to do it. You know, that's what, sometimes we need a leader, it's helpful to look behind your shoulder and see, there's not a whole line of people clamoring for this role, like you are doing the best you can that helped me to realize that. But I do think they think curiosity can be such a power tool together. Because, okay, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't understand city politics, zoning. But I can learn, I can be curious. Which also means I can get smarter people to me around me. Rather than feeling like, oh, I need to show that I know. One of the you know, we have interns at our church, and one of the tasks of an intern is they have to build some kind of ministry project. And they have to stack it with a team of experts that know more about it than they do. So one of my interns built for us a prayer labyrinth on our property. On his, yeah, he had on his Taskforce, our executive pastor, who's got a master's in project management. He had a landscape architect, and he had someone who has had tremendous experience with city approval, and our intern didn't know any of that. And he then had to lead them into accomplishing this project. It's really good practice to lead shot people, you know, authority and expertise and not the same thing, for example. So I think that would be my answer there.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah, so I can I can imagine a fledgling fundraiser going to admissions pastor and trying to cast a vision like that feels like a similar comparison.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah. Or even just having a core team around them. People that have different strengths that can can come around them in that. Great, cool. I would love to walk that prayer labyrinth. That sounds it's not

Andy Brennan:

far to probably not far from us. Yeah, probably

Heather Winchell:

not. Yeah. Well, great. Well, I man, I feel like I, I could generate far more questions. But we definitely want to respect your time. And, you know, we just want our listeners to know, hearing about anxiety and hearing the way you've thought through and, and even knowing that you have written books, and you have different resources available to people, we'd love to point them to some other helpful resources. If you had recommendations, both from your own offerings or or others you would recommend.

Steve Cuss:

Oh, for sure. Yeah. So my own offerings can all be accessed on my website, see customers.com. And I will just give some shout out. Tod bolsinger, who's a seminary professor of Fuller, as the same training I do in his book canoeing, the mountains, amazing book, for navigating uncomfortable things like this is a follow up follow up book just as to cold tempered resilience. They're both incredible. And then there's a coaching group that do coaching and consulting called the leaders journey. In Harrington, and Tricia Taylor, dear friends, incredible people. And they provide coaching services in this kind of anxiety management, and it's hard to think of to better humans to do it. So yeah, you can go to my website, Steve customers.com. But then those would be another couple of resources I'd highly recommend.

Andy Brennan:

Yeah. We will link those in the show notes. We definitely

Heather Winchell:

will do want to close this out with our final question, Andy.

Andy Brennan:

Sure. This is a question we asked everybody. Okay, so here's a hypothetical situation, you suddenly have a windfall you have $10,000 And the only condition is you have to give it away today. With a split second to decide who do you who would you give that money to? And why and why.

Steve Cuss:

Okay, if it's today I give 5000 to five small groups in my church and ask them to pray about a need and give it and then tell us what they did. Nice. And the other 5000 I would give my staff and our to go pray. And to come back with a blue sky safe only venture they want to try with $5,000 that may The difference in our community and give it to that person the most compelling one in the moment. Good answer.

Heather Winchell:

Yeah. That's really great. Well, thank you again, so much for your time. We really appreciate it. I'm confident that our that our listeners are going to get some great nuggets on just identifying their own anxiety, realizing where they have assumptions and where they've really failed to lean into the joy of entrusting it to God. You know, the one who is in control that is perfect. We have his approval in Christ. He's there in our need, and he has the answers. It seems so simple. So

Steve Cuss:

lovely to meet you, guys. Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah. Thanks, Pastor. Thank you. All right.

Heather Winchell:

Well, we're so sorry for the problems you had with discord. Yeah,

Steve Cuss:

no problem. Yep. Every text a little different. But yeah, this one was just a bit persnickety, but we got it sorted.

Heather Winchell:

We did. And we'll let you know when your episode is published.

Steve Cuss:

Okay, very good. Great to meet you guys. Thank you.

Heather Winchell:

Thank you. Bye.