It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising
For us, ministry fundraising is the overflow of a deep sense of purpose. In “It’s Not About the Money”, we look past formulas, and explore both the nuance and the big picture of the fundraising journey. It’s not about tips, tricks, or clever phrasing. It’s about being grounded. Each episode focuses on an aspect of real life as a support-seeker. We hold space for both practice and theory. Join us as we explore the truth that, while the funding is essential, it’s not about the money.
It's Not About the Money: In Search of Grounded Fundraising
46. Dependence Isn’t a Deficit: A Fresh Look at Fundraising with Dr. Jacob Chacko (Soundtracks)
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"Our support raising isn’t asking for a favor — it’s an invitation to join in Kingdom work."
“Greed isn’t about how much money you have — it’s about what you expect money to give you.”
What does it really mean to live with an abundance mindset in a culture of scarcity and self-sufficiency? In this episode of It’s Not About the Money, we’re joined by Dr. Jacob Chacko — a cardiologist, bivocational pastor, and thoughtful teacher — to talk about the spiritual heart of fundraising.
Together we explore:
- The subtle forms greed can take — even in ministry
- Why dependence isn't weakness, but a biblical invitation
- How abundance isn’t about more stuff — it’s about deeper trust
- Practical ways to reframe financial anxiety and scarcity thinking
Whether you're deep into support-raising or simply wrestling with how to steward your money faithfully, this conversation will stir your heart and reorient your perspective.
🎧 Plus: a beautiful blessing from Walter Brueggemann to close out the episode.
If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your network. Follow It’s Not About the Money for more insightful discussions on faith-based fundraising and support raising!
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Welcome to it's Not About the Money, a podcast in search of grounded fundraising. I'm Heather and together with my co-host, andy, we look beyond the quick tips and formulas. Join us as we explore the nuance and complexity of ministry fundraising. If you want to thrive in partner development, not just survive it, this is the place for you.
Speaker 2Welcome back everybody. In his book called Soundtracks, christian author Jonathan Acuff talks about the dangers of overthinking and says one of the greatest mistakes you can make in life is assuming all your thoughts are true. For the next several weeks, we will be looking at different soundtracks or mindsets or thought patterns that show up in our fundraising. There's a connection between what we think and how we feel and act. Dallas Willard once said we live at the mercy of our ideas. Paying attention to the soundtracks or mental recordings that we play and replay internally matters, so let's explore those together and do some reframing.
Speaker 2In today's episode, we want to talk about the scarcity mindset and highlight the invitation we have to abundance. And before you protest by hitting the skip button, this isn't a prosperity gospel that we're talking about. It's the realization that our Heavenly Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills. And if we, being evil, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more does he know how to give and to provide for us to his glory? So, heather, would you do the honors and introduce our guest?
Speaker 1I would love to Andy. So today we have invited Dr Jacob Chaco to join us for this conversation on scarcity and abundance. Jacob works professionally as a cardiologist and also serves as a bivocational pastor within his local church, and he recently delivered a sermon on this topic and we asked him to continue the conversation here. So welcome, Jacob, we're so glad to have you.
Speaker 3Thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1So we know that money by itself is neutral, but that the love of it is the root of all evil. So sometimes dwelling too much on wealth feels like we're playing with fire. It can be a slippery slope and people, even believers have different thoughts about what is acceptable, what is good or what is ideal. So, jacob, thank you for being willing to navigate this spicy topic and since we are a podcast focused on holistically equipping support-based workers, let's start with any experiences you've had with fundraising, either as a person asking for funds or as someone who has been invited into partnership.
Speaker 3Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 3I'm so happy to be here and I think this is such an important topic to be able to discuss, and so I'm excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 3I grew up in the church and had parents that loved Jesus.
Speaker 3I really grew in my faith, though, in college through a parish church ministry, and in that context, not only was I informed by people who were support grazing and really discipled by them, but in addition, kind of after college, I had a lot of friends that went into that type of work, and so was also interacting with people who needed to fundraise just for their livelihood, and so, for one short season, just for a summer, through that parachurch ministry, I had to fundraise in being able to do a summer ministry opportunity and that, even though it seemed, looking back, a pretty small thing, was a faith-growing exercise for myself, just being able to recognize that I had to express need to people and just in my desire to be able to be self-sufficient. That was grading against my natural tendency, and over the years since I've graduated from college, I've certainly had at least two or three dozen interactions with people who are fundraising for ministry, friends and people that I've been connected with, and so, yeah, that's been my history with it.
Speaker 1Can you remember anything from that time where you had your own opportunity to invite others into giving? Were you given any training? Were you given like a little sheet on do this, do this, do this? Do you remember?
Speaker 3Yeah, I would say that it was relatively minimal, but I think maybe two things that stood out that I still remember today. One was the fact that the person that was giving us some guidance said that our mentality as people who are raising funds is not that we're asking someone to do us a favor, but more so the invitation to join in kingdom work, and so just that mindset change was pretty significant, where here's an opportunity to be able to really store treasure in heaven, and that just flips the script a little bit, you know on its head.
Speaker 3I think also the other thing was recognizing that generosity comes from places that you don't expect. Generosity comes from places that you don't expect, and even that temptation to ask someone and in some ways assume what they're going to say, either based on their financial status or even cues that you might pick up and how the Lord oftentimes blesses in unexpected ways yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Totally so, Jacob. Let's jump in, I think, by defining our terms. How would you describe a quote-unquote scarcity mindset? That's part one, and then part two would be where do you see it predominantly?
Speaker 3Yeah, you know, I think that some of these terms sometimes have been co-opted by our culture too, and so people use scarcity and abundance as a mindset just in sometimes common language. I think biblically. I think scarcity and abundance are more based on how aware we are of what the Lord has given us, of what the Lord has given us and because, as believers, we all are in the abundant camp.
Speaker 3It's not that that is in question, and so scarcity is in some ways not focusing on what God has already given us and instead trying to find those same things through something that's very transient and unpredictable like money. When we use the word greed a lot of times, that seems like a pretty dramatic kind of characterization to be like I'm not greedy, that's reserved for somebody that's really doing something pretty different from what I'm doing, not a Scrooge, yes, exactly Exactly. Or, you know, stealing from old ladies who are crossing the street, and things like that. But in my mind, greed is a overvaluing of what money can give us, and I think that that and scarcity mindset kind of come together. And I think even for people who are in any economic situation, but especially you know who are in any economic situation, but especially you know who are in the fundraising sphere, there can be this false assumption that I don't have enough money to be greedy. But greed, and specifically the desire for money to achieve more than it was intended, can exist at any level of income or wealth.
Speaker 2Yeah, or like my resources are my security and my protection.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly yeah, that's what I was thinking. Is, you know, with what he said, overvaluing what money can give us? I mean, yeah, the first thought I had was that money feels like security, like if I, if I have the money to pay my rent or the money for you know, whatever it, it's created an agreement that that means security, when in fact it doesn't.
Speaker 2Yeah, and control Right.
Speaker 1Ultimately Right, right.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, and you know, I think that it is interesting that even in the Bible there's and I've seen this more and more, as I've been looking for when the Lord talks about a certain heart he uses oftentimes, or he shows that that heart can manifest in two different outward postures, which sometimes seem opposite to one another, and we can look at one and think that we're okay because we don't have that, and so on the one hand, we can say that I believe that money is needed to buy my security, and so then we save, you know, a lot of money to be able to, you know, hopefully, cover up or kind of produce that security, even though we know that our deepest security is in the Lord.
Speaker 3On the other side, you know, people at times can be greedy, in a sense of trying to have money by their what I used, for lack of a better word by their beauty, you know, by their allure or worth or value to other people, image, exactly. And so, you know, we live in a town where we're like okay, I'm going to take this adventure with the money that I have, I'm going to buy this house with the money that I have, or send my kids to this activity with the money that I have, and because I have the money to do that, then my value is secure, and so those can look very different. You know, the person that has their security in money may live a very, in theory, frugal lifestyle, but that heart is still overvaluing money. The other person can be spending the money on a lot of things, but the heart for both is one where money is buying more than it was intended to Interesting.
Living in the Abundance of Faith
Speaker 1So I guess, kind of conversely, what would you say are some telltale signs that someone is really functioning out of an abundance mindset or a place of abundance?
Speaker 3You know, and I think that in some ways, for those who have been around faith, we know that the Lord has given us a lot. I think that it's something, though, that it's one thing to know it intellectually and it's another thing to kind of, day after day, go back to what we know is true, because we have so many things in our just everyday life and society that push us away from really living out of that reality, us away from really living out of that reality. And just, you know things that are not surprises, I would say to people that are in full-time ministry, but this reality that, like the Lord is our shepherd, like he cares for us, he keeps us and he's our Father, you know, and the ways in which we want to give good gifts to our children, how much more will he do that to us? And not only this present abundance that we have, but so much more that it's the Father's good pleasure to give us the kingdom, this idea that whatever wealth in the Lord we have now, this is just a foretaste of the abundance and inheritance that are only going to grow for us in the future. And so I think, even for myself, kind of re-anchoring myself in some of those realities. It's not this on and off switch that you flip on and then you're good indefinitely. You have to kind of keep reminding yourself of that. And so you know, I think that that can play out, you know, in different ways, obviously, based on situations, and you know other processes.
Speaker 3But I do think that there's this reality of intentionality, kind of in the way that we kind of have abundance, because not out of that abundance mindset, because not only is it this idea that, hey, I have enough, but also what I have been given can be used for just kingdom purposes.
Speaker 3And so I just think about even folks who know, folks who are fundraising and you know that's their income stream. I think this idea of being able to know what enough is, I think is a really hard line, but one that, whether you're fundraising or not, I think believers are really called to be able to pursue. Like, we live in a culture where we're always just kind of wanting more and more. And how can we intentionally, I guess I would say live with simplicity would be maybe one way to put it. And it looks different, you know, if you're living in Africa, living in Fort Collins, you know, living in a different space, but to be able to say that you know I can live with simplicity and know when enough is enough because of how much I have in the Lord, that would be kind of one thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's interesting to think how do we, how do we take this idea that he is our shepherd and how do we practically allow that to influence and rewire how we manage our money? Right? So maybe it's more like I'm going to look for alternate uses for this money rather than just there's always something more that you can get.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, well, and I just maybe not necessarily in answer to the question you just asked, but just in thinking about what does it look like for the Lord to be our shepherd, and how does that come into just thinking about scarcity and abundance.
Speaker 1Abundance, and actually, from another recent sermon that I heard you give Jacob, you were talking about a portion of the Beatitudes and, on one hand, talking about blessed are those, and then, on the other, woe to those. And it really struck me in that moment that it is true that for all those that were blessed, there was dependence and need and want, versus with the woe, it was really self-sufficiency in a variety of areas. I think that's another important concept to hold when thinking about scarcity and abundance, because I think that in a very shallow way, we can think of scarcity as kind of maybe like a sad, deprived state, and abundance as kind of like an overflowing, joyful state. But actually there's a lot more nuance, right, because you can be walking in scarcity, not understanding that your mindset is scarcity and that you don't look sad, versus abundance might look like the poor in spirit, right. And so it strikes me that holding the Lord as our shepherd is depending on Him in these things and that may or may not look like a tangible physical abundance, but it's certainly abundance.
Speaker 2And that's challenging when we live in a culture that so values self-sufficiency.
Speaker 1Well, and physical abundance.
Speaker 3Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, you know, I think that there is more and more this idea in our culture where if I'm dependent, something's wrong, you know I'm not doing something right. And yet, to your point, like in the Beatitudes and so much of the scripture, dependence is the way in which we are meant to live Dependency, first and foremost, on the Lord, but also dependency on each other. You know this idea that I can kind of do it all, and is such an American. You know mindset that is unbiblical and very individualistic, exactly, exactly. And so to be able to lean into the biblical model where it's like I can have abundance while still being dependent, is oftentimes seen as an oxymoron you know, in our culture.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2And maybe we've seen people take it too far that maybe aren't depending on the body of Christ or upon God, they're just kind of leeching or mooching off the system and so that kind of gives us a bad taste in our mouths or a bad context. Off the system and so that kind of gives us a bad taste in our mouths or a bad context. I remember talking to my cousin once and she was reflecting that as a teacher, as a junior high teacher, she was talking to one of her students and trying to encouraging them and saying well, why don't you work harder? I mean, you're not gonna be able to get a job when you graduate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, trying to motivate. And he's like well, why do I need a job? I can just live on food stamps or I can just live off the system. So that's really tough when you're starting from that position. You're not there by default or by circumstance. You're just like oh, this is the culture that we live in and it's okay.
Speaker 3Yeah, there's a spectrum in all of those things, and I think that, at the same time that we try to push up against one error, we don't want to lead towards the other error. We want to be dependent while also being able to be, you know, faithful to what the Lord is individually calling us to as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely.
Navigating Scarcity and Abundance Mentality
Speaker 2So let's dial back the clock a little bit. Jacob, what do you remember from your youth and how you were raised to think about money?
Speaker 3You know, I was blessed to be in a home with parents that love Jesus and who didn't talk about money a lot, but certainly and we know just even as parents so much of what our kids get from us is communicated non-verbally. And so in that spending and saving dynamic, the attitude in my family was definitely to save and there was this immigrant mindset, you know, in that you know my parents came here after they were married and they didn't come with too much, and so it's hard to really move away from that type of mentality. And so our whole childhood, I think we had enough, but it always seemed as if anything that was superfluous was not gonna be considered. And I think that it was interesting, even stepping into a dating relationship with my now wife and her parents loved Jesus but didn't come from that immigrant mindset. There was really a.
Speaker 3She was blessed, I think, to see a lot of generosity and action pretty publicly through her parents, and I was, I think, blessed to see a lot of simplicity in action. And I think when we were dating and engaged, I think we both recognized this and we saw the benefits of both. But yet they were so different. And this conversation about how do we take the best aspects of both of these backgrounds to be able to be both simple in how we spend for ourselves, yet generous in how we give to others. Because I do see that kind of in the biblical model, because it's easy to do the opposite. It's easy to say I'm going to be lavish on myself and then simple when it comes to generosity. And yet we saw both of our parents kind of highlighting a certain aspect of gospel ethic that, yeah, I think, by God's grace you know, we've been able to learn from.
Speaker 2Yeah, what a great picture of the body of Christ and even different cultures and different upbringings bringing different perspectives to make it more holistic.
Speaker 3I think, yeah, right, yeah, it's great, yeah, and I'm sure that even you know, having my parents grew up in India and we would go back to India to visit relatives pretty frequently, pretty frequently, and you can see the ways in which even generosity is shown in a different way and especially when it comes to, like hospitality or opening up your homes, like there's ways in which the Lord really uses generosity in different cultures in different ways, and so I think, like even that has informed our view of what does stewardship look like, not only of what's in our bank account, but stewardship of our home and being able to kind of really have an abundance mindset, kind of of our assets in that type of way.
Speaker 1Yeah, and what I really love just about what you've articulated in kind of seeing different gospel ethics being lived out in each of your families is just this understanding that the word is so clear on principles of God's heart in abundance, in his desire for his people to reflect generosity within the body and to the world.
Speaker 1Even as we are trying in broad strokes to kind of hold up the terms of scarcity and abundance like it's not a formula, it's not as though it looks exactly like this or exactly like this, not as though it looks exactly like this or exactly like this, but thankfully the word speaks so clearly in so many ways to what it looks like to reflect the heart and mind of God in those things. So I just think that's helpful for people to remember as they hear us discussing this. So when you were teaching on this topic in that sermon that we referenced, you looked specifically at Luke 12, 13 through 34, and you highlighted three principles that this passage holds up regarding scarcity and abundance, and we would really just love to give you opportunity to share those here.
Speaker 3Yeah, you know, I think that in the passages that we had looked at, you know, I think the great thing of what Jesus does is that he speaks to everybody in bringing able to get to the heart issue, and what he shows us is that greed can look a couple different ways. You know, in the beginning of the passage we're introduced to a man who comes to him with this family legal trouble and he is really focused on getting what's his due. And what Jesus essentially says is that who am I to be able to do this for you? But be on guard. And there's this reality that we can be seeking technically the right thing, but our heart can still be one of overvaluing that thing. You know, is it right to have, you know, the legal process kind of adjudicate me one way or the other? It certainly can be, but when that is our emphasis or when getting everything that we do is the ultimate priority, oftentimes that speaks to a heart that isn't anchored in the Lord. And then he then tells a parable about this man who, very simply, makes a lot of money, becomes rich and is thinking about how to store his wealth. He didn't have a 401k like we did today. And so, you know, there's ways in which he's just planning for the future, and in the parable God says you're a fool. Tonight, your life is required of you. And it just struck me to recognize, when you take away some of the terms and just generalize them, this is the American dream to be able to store up enough that we can have a comfortable life. And I know that people in ministry and who are fundraising, you know, are thinking about a lot of different things, and so they're not necessarily kind of in that exact same category of maybe the stereotypical American. But there still is this sense in which, hey, it's good to be able to plan for the future and to think about how I can be comfortable down the line, and there's some of that that certainly is necessary to kind of act in wisdom. But when our heart is drawn to that as our destination, you know, ultimately again we're using money in a way that God never intended it to.
Speaker 3And so this idea that greed can look different, but when greed occurs, it should clue us in to this scarcity mindset. And the antidote to that is not just, you know, hitting ourselves on the wrist or being able to embrace whatever shame or fallenness that we have, but to see how abundant we are already in Christ. You know, and he gives these two examples, you know, you look at the ravens they neither sow nor reap, yet God takes care of them. So this idea that birds are secure even without money. And then he talks about, you know, the lilies and how beautiful they are and how they don't have any, you know, care about their beauty being in jeopardy, you know, because of what they do or don't have. And so the ravens have security, the lilies have beauty, and, as children of God, we have both of those things.
Speaker 3And so if we recognize our scarcity mindset, recognize the abundance that God has and how that overwhelms our scarcity, then we are able to, third, just be able to live in a way that is rich towards God.
Speaker 3You know, when I think about generosity, you know, in this mentality, it's not so much okay, I need to give this percent or I need to, not I have to say no to this, but more like, in light of what God has given me, how can I be rich back towards him? That's what he says in verse 21, when he says, you know, so is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich towards God and I just love that phrase where it somewhat seems hard to wrap our mind around initially. How can I be rich towards a God that has everything? But there's a sense of where it's like out of the abundance of my love and appreciation, I want to show to the world how valuable he is to me, and so I think those were kind of the ways in which, hopefully, we could orient ourselves more towards the biblical model of generosity and money.
Speaker 1Yeah, it strikes me again in the two kind of vignettes you know, the one of the man seeking his gain from the legal process and then the man that was storing up the treasure in barns, and in both it's a shifting of what they're depending on what they're hoping in Right.
Speaker 1So again we see that abundance and dependence are are tethered Right.
Speaker 1And then the second thing that came to mind was just how often God invites his people and calls his people to remember, and how it's in the remembering and the recounting God's goodness, recounting God's deeds, that really our hearts are brought into the rest of being able to depend on Him and to trust in Him. And it really is such a gift that we, you know, as believers, we definitely have experiences from our own life of the Lord's very practical provision, the Lord's presence as provision. There's so much we can remember from our own life. But then of course there's the word and just these testaments of his character throughout time. You know, they are not Jewish, but they kind of observe, not observe, but they recognize and kind of like, celebrate the Feast of Booths, because it's like a way that their hearts rejoice in what God did, in reminding his people and commanding them to feast, to remember the wilderness and how he brought them through the wilderness, and then to think of how we are presently in that wilderness and will be brought to the promised land with Christ one day.
Speaker 2What does that look like? Are they camping in the backyard?
Speaker 1Yes, they do camp in their backyard and then at the very end they have a feast and actually they invited a lot of people to join them and it's just. It was a really beautiful reminder and so cool to stop and remember that reality.
Speaker 2We are so prone to forget.
Speaker 1We are so prone to forget. But remembering really positions us for gratitude, and I think gratitude is yet another word that is probably very tethered to abundance.
Speaker 3Good, yeah, there is this reality. I think with just even recognizing greed in our own hearts, that requires just a lot of honesty and self-reflection. You know, I don't think I've heard anybody in all the years that I've been meeting with guys and accountability and all those things I've had nobody say hey, I've really struggled with greed this last week.
Speaker 3It just is not a common thing that people have on their radar, and I think that's also why Jesus says be on guard for it. It's subtle, it's not in your face a lot of times, and I think that one of the things that we can assume is that greed is going to look like living a lavish lifestyle, and the trouble with that is twofold. One is that we can always find somebody that's living more lavishly than we are and so, relatively, we can always self-justify it. But I do think that for many people I think many believers and I think certainly many people that are probably support grazing is that their greed isn't going to necessarily look at too much spending. It's probably going to lean towards too much saving.
Speaker 3This idea that I need to really store up a lot in case X, y and Z happen.
Speaker 3And again we're walking a line of wisdom where obviously you need to be able to save and be able to recognize that.
Speaker 3But when your hopes for security is in how big your emergency fund is or other things, then that is just a different manifestation of greed.
Speaker 3And I think for our family I think that was even one of the convictions that we had is that I think that the error that we're going to make in terms of our finances at this stage in life is going to be that we error that we're going to make in terms of our finances at this stage in life is going to be that we kind of lean too much into our savings and rest on that to be able to provide for us what really only God can do. And I don't obviously want to assume that. You know, I've walked in the shoes of people that are fundraising for years on end. I know that there's this probably just natural uncertainty of, hey, what comes in month to month or year to year is a lot less predictable than it would be if you were in a different vocation, yet at the same time, the same God that takes care of the Ravens is still taking care of us, and so how do I just navigate that in a faithful way?
Speaker 2I feel like I've seen it play out in a couple of different ways, and I think it can be very, very liberating just to say, like God, this is completely out of my control. I don't have the ability to change people's hearts. This is your spirit, moving in them towards generosity. I have a responsibility, of course, to communicate and report and do all these things, but it can be very like wow, the burden has been lifted on me to perform at a certain level and to put bread on the table because now I'm acknowledging and embracing my dependence on the Lord in a way that feels very day to day, very, very kind of visceral, or I don't know if that's the right word, but very practical. Um, but you do see, people that have been on the field for for decades, that are, I would say, consumed with not spending money, because it's that kind of that, that thriftiness is next to godliness. And if I'm on support, then, uh, I really have to be counting my pennies, and so it can be controlling and consuming in that way too.
Speaker 3Yeah, One of the tough things and I think you're alluding to it is that, if we are having all these conversations in our own head, weableness is in some of these things, and I know that in any context that's a challenge, because it seems sometimes, when we are honest about financial things, it feels like we're naked with each other. It's so vulnerable. Yet, you know I think that you know for our church, people who are in similar stages and realms of life being able to share about hey, I'm thinking about doing this from a spending standpoint or this from a saving standpoint. What do you think? Trusting that God can speak through other believers would be able to, not with a ton of people, but with just one or two other people who they trust, who may be in a similar situation to be like hey, this is kind of where I think we're going to land on some of these things. What do you think? And just getting feedback that can be either extremely reassuring or, hopefully, potentially convicting, based on kind of where they are.
Speaker 2It's unfortunate that money is like the ultimate taboo yeah Right In American culture. It wasn't that way in China, like I remember having a conversation with one of the stall the food stall vendors, and a conversation in air quotes because my Chinese isn't that good, but he was asking me how much money I made and I was just kind of flabbergasted like you would never ask that in America, but it was like it was not, it was a non-issue in China. So it makes me think, like I wonder if we should, as we think about core teams, if we have, we should have like somebody on a core team that could ask a financial type of question.
Speaker 1Yeah, but I, but even you know, even core team is going to be a little bit disconnected from your reality, right? Because so many of the people. Even core team is going to be a little bit disconnected from your reality, right, Because so many of the people. Maybe what we should do is recommend that somebody on your core team be a fellow worker on the field.
Speaker 1Oh, interesting you know, yeah and yeah, because I do think there's such importance to having spaces to be vulnerable and to have trusted voices. Speaking back to you, because you know a friend of ours, amy Young, over at Global Trellis. She recently put out a survey asking ministry workers like hey, what are the things that you feel like if your supporters, your church or organizations knew about you would jeopardize your ability to remain on the field? And one of the areas that was identified in the survey was around finances and debt. And it just strikes me that if those conversations, if people felt like they could talk about those things with each other, that maybe it would take away some of the sting and not feel like something people had to hide or carry by themselves or what ultimately brings them back to back home, right, prematurely, right yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think that you know, when I was thinking about this topic, I was thinking about, you know, our context in Fort Collins and I just think, for our whole church body, myself included.
Speaker 3If there was one or two other people that I said, hey, I could be completely vulnerable with you about where we stand, what we're doing and trust that you will love me and speak wisdom into my life. Like how liberating that would be, because both I think even you know people who are following Christ like there's this on the one hand, sure, we want to avoid doing foolish things, but also we can be doing the right thing and yet still constantly worried that we're not doing the right thing, and so exposing some of that to trusted believers can provide a level of comfort and reassurance that would be hard to get otherwise.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2So I guess the practical question is then how would you coach somebody who's trying to find this balance between avoiding a scarcity mindset on one hand, but also wanting to steward their resources well?
Speaker 3At the end of the day, that's the million dollar question. How does it kind of get down to the dirt? There's a sense of like what seems to be things that are your clear needs and what are things that may be still nice to have but maybe not needs. And how do you kind of financial benefit that maybe other people in society might look to? I think that there's also this sense of you know. I think that even when I think about people in Fort Collins, you know there's this idea of hey, for somebody that is having your level of income, what does their lifestyle typically look like?
Speaker 3As a believer, my external lifestyle should likely look less than those people, you know, just out of the fact that my identity is not in those things, and so. But I think that there is some give and take based on, you know, what the Lord has given to us in terms of our money as well. But I do think that being able to have people that are in a similar category in terms of stage of life and maybe even income, even talking to each other, those are probably the best people to be able to get wisdom from, because there's so many different variables based on where you live, what stage of life you're in, you know, how much money is coming in, that the nuances will probably look significantly different based on all those things. But the more that you can find people that overlap with you in as many areas as possible, who also love Jesus and want to be able to, you know, have a gospel ethic for their money, I think that really latching on to sharing with each other, I think that could yield a lot of benefit.
Speaker 2And I think as fundraisers we are in a unique position to welcome and to invite the local church into maybe this simpler lifestyle by partnering with what the Lord is doing abroad and by investing in what could be eternal. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think that what was interesting, just even in that Luke passage, is that Jesus' incentive for us to be generous, and he says pretty radical things about us being generous. He says you know, sell what you have, give to the needy. You know, those are verses that in the American church we just move past them. Let's pretend that verse didn't exist, and so he has a dramatic bar for what generosity looks like Extreme. But his incentive is a financial incentive. His incentive is this idea that your return on this is going to overwhelm any return that you can get on earth, and in some ways it sounds even blasphemous to say that Jesus had a financial incentive when he talked.
Speaker 3But really there is this idea that when you think about what practically money can do in our age to be able to bring the gospel in different places through different means, how can you even compare that to so many things that we spend our money on otherwise? Right, and I think that for somebody that's fundraising or even working for a non-profit and inviting people to participate, there's this excitement that's there in being able to give people the opportunity to invest their limited funds in the greatest return that they can get, and I know that that doesn't always get communicated on both sides, but I think that that is the way that Jesus describes us being generous, this idea that we're going to have a return that doesn't compare to anything that this world can offer Well, and I feel like we see that you compare to anything that this world can offer.
Speaker 1Well, and I feel like we see that, you know, we, we often talk about the story of Elijah and we see that so clearly with the widow that in the giving of the last of the resources like after which she and her son would have died right Life is extended and and given back, and there's enough, there's more than enough, there's enough, there's more than enough. There's abundance, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2And in that situation especially particularly, uh, it feels like, yes, the Lord is interested in the provision of this, this woman, and in the provision of his prophet, but he's also interested in his glory, in his name, in this situation. If he doesn't show up, people start to die. So I think that's something we can't eliminate from the equation. He's also interested in how he is going to be glorified in our own lives and in our own resources and the choices that we make. I think it's pretty humbling if we maybe we'll post something in the show notes. It's pretty humbling if we maybe we'll post something in the show notes about where mission spending goes in. Church spending and it's a lot of it doesn't go towards where it's needed most. Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, yeah.
Cultivating Abundance Through Heart Rhythms
Speaker 1All right, so we are, we're getting to the end of our time here. But just another question for you, jacob. So, and there's kind of two parts to this question, you know, in light of some of the things we've mentioned earlier, practices that cultivate abundance. Are there any practices in your own life that help you to kind of stay postured in abundance versus scarcity? And then part two you know what are the indicators or the warning signs that a person might be shifting back into a scarcity mindset?
Speaker 3Yeah, those are great questions and I think a lot of those really start and end with the heart. And so, I think, being able to, whether you're on the field or whether you're in the local church, being able to have rhythms daily, weekly, where your heart is anchored in the truths of who you are and the Lord, that is certainly individual, but certainly if you're married with your spouse and then, more broadly, with your community. I think that one of the I remember there is someone described kind of having times with the Lord as kind of tuning a piano.
Speaker 3And that when you start going times without tuning it, slowly, it starts to get out of tune. Times without tuning it slowly starts to get out of tune and you can have clues about when your heart might be out of tune. And I think that even that scarcity mindset, that kind of tendency towards greed let me kind of reach for this myself, even though I know that God has already given it to me those can be signs that my heart is out of tune. And so I think it really does. Start with how can we situate ourselves, through rhythms and habits and also dependency, to be able to see what reality is.
Speaker 3And so that would be kind of one thing I do think for our family practically, and maybe kind of similarly, like I would say, step one of us living in an abundant mindset is, you know, myself and my wife kind of helping to make sure that each of us are encouraging the other person in their walk with the Lord, being able to kind of be anchored in Him.
Speaker 3I think one thing very practically that we do is that we have and I don't kind of we don't live or die at all on percentages, but I think that there is this sense of like hey, we want to be able to give away at least this amount of money, um, you know, in terms of what comes in, and the regular giving that we do oftentimes doesn't kind of get up to that amount.
Speaker 3So there's always this, I would say, this nest egg of giving that's ready to kind of be deployed, and it's really fun, I think, to be able to have that be like hey, this is already allocated for kingdom resources or kingdom uses.
Speaker 3How can we find places to kind of allocate it? I think that's been a really fun way to be able to look for kingdom opportunities and I think for us personally, I think that we've just kind of come to the conclusion that the Lord is sovereign in a lot of things, and you know this doesn't hold 100% of the time, but virtually 100% of the time. There's this idea that if somebody is coming to us with a financial need that's kingdom related, we just assume that the Lord brought them. And there's a sense of like okay, you know, there's tens of thousands of people that are doing this all across the world, but God brought you to be able to ask us. And so there's this sense in which kind of we trust the Lord's direction in some of those things, and so that allows us to, I think, just come into those things pretty joyful and open-handed.
Speaker 2And so if you're interested in Dr Chaco's email, address just send us an email at provisiofuntracing Right, right, Exactly.
Speaker 3I was like this is going to turn out poorly yeah.
Speaker 1We also have a category for just like generosity to be yet determined or, you know, kind of an understanding of set aside funds for whatever the Lord might bring. So I think that that can be really helpful might bring. So I think that that can be really helpful.
Speaker 1I also really like the analogy of the tuning of the piano because, going back to something you said earlier, you said that it's not like it's on or off. You're just like, oh, now I'm living in scarcity, oh, now I'm living in abundance. And so you know, thinking about my own experience of owning a piano, you can like be playing and it can sound okay, and then you'll hit one note and you're like Ooh. I think that applies to the heart, because it's not like your heart is completely over here, away from the Lord, or completely over here with him, and that there's just these reminders to see like, ooh, actually in this space, right here, my heart is trending towards dependence on something else my heart is moving away from. I rest securely in my shepherd Right, and so I think that's such a helpful metaphor.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think, I think that the word trending is really helpful, that you just said how am I trending? Am I trending up or am I drifting, or? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Well, I feel like this has been a really helpful conversation. I'm so grateful for your time. I guess, just as we kind of close out, I would love to give you an opportunity to just encourage our listeners as they persevere in support-based ministry and also invite you to share any resources you would recommend.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's been a great conversation.
Speaker 3I'm glad to be able to be a part of it.
Speaker 3You know, I think that I have seen the ways in which the trajectory of my own life was significantly impacted by somebody that was sport grazing full-time, and I see the ways in which that kingdom impact has not only impacted me but my family and, by God's grace, I think, many people over the last 15 or 20 years. And so I think that oftentimes, when finances are tight and we're raising money, it can seem as if it's hard. And I don't, you know, I can't even want to, I don't even want to assume to put myself in that shoe to kind of know, like, what it feels like. But I can only imagine that it's a pretty tough spot to be in. And, you know, I even think of that analogy of a farmer in 1 Timothy, which I think I go to a lot for, even situations like this where it's like there is this sense in which so much of our calling as Christ followers is to work hard, like farmers, work really hard, yet what happens is fully out of our control. Right.
Speaker 3We can do all the things that we can do, and yet we have to be fully dependent on the Lord. Yeah, and so, in the midst of being fully dependent on the Lord, let's not give up on the work that the Lord has called us to do. You know, through the seemingly unspiritual means of making phone calls and sending letters and writing emails and checking our accounts, and all those things the Lord is waiting to be able to bring fruit. Bring fruit that we can't imagine, over a time course in our horizon that we can't even imagine.
Speaker 1And so you know, just an encouragement to remember that your labor is not in vain. Amen. Today we're actually ending our episode in kind of a unique, special way. We typically end with a standard question, but Andy recently came across a resource that he just felt would be a great way to kind of take us out with some blessing and to fix our eyes.
Speaker 2Yes, so for now, thank you, jacob, for joining us. Cardiologist works on the heart in the office and then comes here and talks about the heart too.
Speaker 1Yep.
Speaker 2I love it. Yeah, great to be with you guys. Yeah, so instead of our final question today, I would like to read a prayer and some scripture to wrap us up. The passage is Psalm 145, verses 14 through 21. And I like it because David draws our attention back to the greatness of the God we serve. The prayer is taken from inscribing the text Sermons and Prayers of Walter Brueggemann and it's titled On Generosity.
Speaker 2This is a lengthier way to wind down the episode. So thank you for sticking with us. We trust that you'll find it edifying. The Lord upholds all who are falling and raises up all who are bowed down. The eyes of all look to you and you give them their food in due season. You open your hand. You satisfy the desire of every living thing. The Lord is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works. The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him. In truth, he fulfills the desire of those who fear him. He also hears their cry and saves them. The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy. My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord and let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever. It doesn't matter. Okay. So here's, here's the prayer from Walter Brueggemann. He says so.
Embracing Divine Abundance
Speaker 2Here's the prayer from Walter Brueggemann. He says On our own, we conclude there's not enough to go around. We are going to run short of money, of love, of grades, of publications, of sex, of beer, of members, of years of life. We should seize the day, seize our goods, seize our neighbor's goods, because there is not enough to go around. And in the midst of our perceived deficit, you come. You come giving bread in the wilderness. You come giving children at the eleventh hour. You come giving homes to exiles. You come giving futures to the shut down. You come giving Easter joy to the dead.
Speaker 2You come, fleshed in Jesus, and we watch while the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor dance and sing. We watch and we take food. We did not grow life, we did not invent and future. That is gift and gift and gift families and neighbors who sustain us when we did not deserve it. It dawns on us, late rather than soon, that you give food in due season and open your hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing by your giving, break our cycles of imagined scarcity, override our presumed deficits, quiet our anxieties of lack, transform our perceptual field to see the abundance, mercy upon mercy, blessing upon blessing. Sink your generosity deep into our lives. That your muchness may expose our false lack, that, endlessly receiving, we may endlessly give, so that the world may be made easter new, without greedy lack but only wonder, without coercive need but only love Without destructive greed, but only praise Without aggression and invasiveness. All things Easter new Toward us and by us. All things Easter new.
Speaker 2Finish your creation in wonder, love and praise Amen.