51. Borrowing Tools from Big-Org Fundraising with Ekren Miller

In Episode 51, we ask Dr. Ekren Miller, a major gifts fundraiser, to explore the fundraising principles applicable to personal ministry support. Ekren shares his journey from raising small gifts for overseas work to securing large donations for a university, emphasizing relationship-building, confident asking, and donor stewardship. The episode unpacks four fundraising pillars—qualification, cultivation, solicitation, and stewardship—and offers practical tips for overcoming fear, crafting effective asks, and fostering lasting donor relationships, all while framing fundraising as a meaningful, spiritual act of inviting others into a shared mission.

0:00 - 6:00 | Introduction and Ekren’s Fundraising Journey
Heather and Andy introduce the episode, focusing on applying major gift principles to personal fundraising. Ekren shares his evolution from raising $1,200 for short-term work to securing $25,000+ gifts, highlighting how early experiences built skills for his professional role.

6:01 - 23:00 | Reframing Fundraising as Investment and Relationship
Ekren explains why fundraising feels like asking for money but is an invitation to invest in a meaningful mission. He emphasizes sharing passion authentically to build relationships, drawing on Henry Nouwen’s idea of asking with dignity. Fundraising is spiritual, reflecting God’s design for giving, and requires confidence and professionalism, even for smaller asks.

23:01 - 48:00 | Fundraising Pillars: Qualification and Cultivation
Ekren outlines four pillars: qualification (identifying donors with affinity), cultivation (building trust through genuine engagement), solicitation, and stewardship. He advises casting a wide net but moving on after three unresponsive touches, focusing on cultivating those with interest. 

48:01 - 1:19:00 | Solicitation, Stewardship, and Perseverance
For solicitation, Ekren stresses clear, specific asks (what, why, how much, how long) and letting donors respond first. Stewardship involves consistent gratitude (calls, notes, gifts) to maintain trust, avoiding transactional approaches. He encourages perseverance, discipline, and finding mentors or partners to stay accountable. He notes how generosity surprised him and affirms that funds are available with the right approach.

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Transcript

What if fundraising's, not just about the bottom line. What if it is about who you become and what you believe in the process? And what if the journey is bigger than you and your ministry? Welcome to season four of, it's Not about the money. Join us as we examine elements of ministry fundraising through the unique lens of personal formation.

Let's dive in. Hey there. Welcome back to, it's Not About the Money. In today's episode, we are sitting down with Dr. Ekron Miller, an experienced fundraiser who has worked extensively in major gifts. But don't worry, this conversation isn't just for people pulling in $25,000 checks. We're breaking down the principles of relationship building, crafting the ask and donor stewardship in a way that applies to any fundraiser.

Yes, even those asking for smaller, more frequent gifts. We will talk about how to overcome the [00:01:00] fear of asking why donors of all sizes want to be part of something meaningful and how to make your fundraising conversations more natural and effective. So whether you're just starting out or looking to improve your approach, we think this episode is packed with practical wisdom to help you ask with confidence and cultivate stronger donor relationships.

I'm excited for this conversation. Andy, could you please do the honors of introducing our guest? Absolutely. It is. It is a distinct honor to welcome to the show, Dr. Miller, as I knew him back when he was just Akron. We worked for the same sending org served in the same country and earn our masters at Wheaton together.

So we have, we have some history here during those years. One thing that always impressed me about Ekron was his heart for pioneering and his willingness to do whatever it took, whatever he felt the Lord was asking him to do. And, and this showed up as he dove into language learning and into [00:02:00] accessing the very least reached groups in our area.

But I confess that I don't know much about his personal fundraising journey or how his career has morphed into involving major gifts. So Akron, thank you for joining us, my friend. Let's start by talking about your early experience in support based work and how that prepared you for the job that you have now, and tell us a little bit about your current role.

Yes, thanks for having me on the show. Heather and Andy, uh, we're here to put the fund back in fundraising, right? That's right, absolutely. Yeah. And, uh, fundraising is definitely a journey of learning and I think about, um, my background just starting out is, um, you know, I was given a good size gift to study overseas when I was in college.

That resulted in, uh, something, I couldn't believe that someone would give me a gift to go do that, but just someone wanted to invest into what I was [00:03:00] doing. And, um, as I turned into other opportunities looking to go overseas, uh, whether short term or long term, most people start short term. And, um, I remember distinctly looking at like a letter that I wrote looking for $1,200 to go to Dominican Republic.

And I thought this was just like a mountain and, uh, no way I would get to that. And then just little by little you came in and it really, it grows your faith in what to ask for and how to do it. And I mean, with a number of small short-term opportunities, uh, that, that changed into long-term for me, uh, going overseas for four years, asking for a full year's salary, uh, how that all works, um, to the point that people were very generous in there.

Uh, monthly giving, annual giving. I spoke one time, someone gave me $10,000 anonymously. I couldn't believe it. Whoa. I mean, that made for an easy year in fundraising. Yeah. Um, and actually [00:04:00] it, you wanna do your best in everything, right? And, and fundraising is a skill that you can take your whole life. So here, here I see that, um, God can use anything in your background and your life.

So, so here I see that kind of prominent skill going through, even though I was also a teacher by trade. Um, just earned my doctorate in education. Um, I'm also a division two men's golf coach. And, um, so I've done different kinds of fundraising as it relates to going overseas, sport fundraising, and now I'm a major gifts officer or an advancement officer in philanthropy for university.

And so, um, in major gifts, we're talking $25,000 or more. And, um, yeah, and, and this kind of philanthropy giving is a profession. So, uh, basically every nonprofit organization is gonna want a fundraiser out there. And, um, you know, the mo the money makes it happen, but it, it's about [00:05:00] how does that happen professionally is kind of what we're getting at today.

And, um, looking at kind of the pillars and stages of asking and giving. So I'm really excited to share, uh, my background. Anything I can do to help people grow, to encourage them and to say, this is a profession in a future. And you can, you can move an organization forward when you have the funding. Yeah.

Is there any way you would've predicted that this is what you'd be doing at this stage of your life? No way. No. I, um, I was all education guy. I think Covid changed things for people. Of course. Yeah. You know, and it, it had me online learning and I was online teaching the last three years. And, um, you know.

You have different convictions in different stages of your life, and I just think this is a perfect fit for me right now, what I'm doing. I love what I do. I love the people that I'm meeting. I'm so impressed with the generosity and uh, I'm having a lot of fun with it. [00:06:00] Yeah. Awesome. I really love that. I really love how you are just casting vision.

I mean, you know, we often tell people that the, the skills, the realities that they're walking through in fundraising are developing, are forming them for the rest of life, right? It's not just this isolated season that you need isolated skills for. It's, it's skills that really do carry into a lot of areas of life.

And I really love that you cast vision for them, that actually it might not even just be the soft skills, but the hard skills. There's actually something you could step into in fundraising for something even beyond yourself. So that's kind of fun. Hmm. Absolutely. It's an aspect of. Of going overseas and the vision that you have.

Um, but it becomes, I mean, here I am 20 years later where that was a major part, you know, extending into a career, doing it not for everyone. Definitely. I, I talked to plenty of people who say, I'm so [00:07:00] uncomfortable asking for money, how do you do it? Yeah. And I said, this is, I love it. I don't know, it's just, it's different for different people.

So. And I'm really thankful because there are so many, I mean, because like you said, a lot of nonprofits, a lot of universities, a lot of these entities that provides such meaningful contribution to our communities and to the world are set up in a way that if they didn't have somebody fundraising, it would really put a significant cost on those receiving what they have to give.

Right. Like students or for nonprofits. I mean, they're, they do fundraising so that they can, they can give without asking. Right. And so it's a really important role in our society. Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of organizations out there that are completely dependent on somebody kind of going out there and sharing the vision and people catching that vision and wanting to be a part of that.

Yeah. Well, I think, and, and we say it's a little, a little different economic model [00:08:00] as well with, uh, we're on the model of giving and receiving, whereas a lot of the economy is buying and selling. Yes. So it's a little, yeah. You know, jump the tracks. It's a little different kind of of financial picture. Yeah.

Yeah. That's good. Well, Akron, let's start with the big picture. Um, so a little more philosophical. Why does fundraising, when we get down to it often just feel like we're asking for money? And this is a two part question. And then how did you manage to see it as an invitation rather than a burden? Because you seem to have a different angle than a lot of people do.

Sure. And I can look at 20 years of fundraising now and, um, you see it at first as like, I have to just raise this money and do this thing. But what you're actually doing is sharing what you've been called to do and sharing your mission of your organization, whatever that is. And I think, I think if you just share the [00:09:00] passion that you have for it, and you're able to tell that story, it's very powerful.

People jump on board. People want to be a part of something that's going somewhere. Uh, something that, it's really an investment. That's what I wanna be clear about is when you're asking for money, you're just asking for an investment. People invest in all kinds of different ways. Stock market, real estate, Bitcoin, what, you know, whatever that might be.

Um, and this is just, you're investing in people, so you're investing in people and organizations that you believe in. So that power of belief is a very big deal. Um, and you're talking about return on investment, your ROI is not always money. It, you know, it can be what you want it to be when you're investing.

So I see it as very relationship based and very much about investment, um, because yes, there's a money component, but that relationship extends through the [00:10:00] entire process of your pillars of asking and receiving. It turns into this, uh, relationship friendship. That's, that's very powerful and a lot of things can come from it.

So I, I don't see it as a burden, although there is discipline to it. Definitely. I mean, it's, yeah. Some aspect of it is a little bit of sales and some aspect, when I tell people what I do, they hold onto their wallet with their other hand. You know, they're like thinking I'm gonna, like they're checking their wallet.

Yeah, yeah. They're check, they're checking. Make sure I'm not pickpocketing. Yeah. Um, and, and like, uh, I actually got called a couple names in my first few months doing this. I got called a chief beggar. Um, oh gee. So, I mean, you're, you're gonna have some, some misinformation about what it is that you do. Yeah.

Um, and so it's important for you to have clarity about why you're convicted to do it and the reason behind it and the investment people are making. Yeah. [00:11:00] Well, yeah. The chief begging officer. Stuff. Well, I mean, I think people are searching not to get, again, we're getting pretty lofty here, but people are searching for meaning in general and you're offering them a chance to be a part of something that's meaningful.

Yeah. So whether or not it's ultimate meaning, it is something meaningful and, and you can, there's kind of short and long-term, uh, fundraising and asking. I mean, there, there are short-term goals, short-term, uh, campaigns, short-term mission that someone's called to, and there are long-term campaigns and there there are long-term pledges and there's also planned giving, which is end of life and legacy giving, which is a whole nother aspect of it because that's a whole nother episode, right.

Um, but as I age, and it's hard to like age yourself, Andy. 'cause we're similar and it's like people we're coaching are staying the same [00:12:00] age. We're getting older, but we do have mm-hmm. Years built up and like now I younger people and also working with people, uh, you know, 20 years, 25 years ahead, who are looking at what has my life been, what's my legacy?

How do I want to give and be remembered? And so I, so I help people start scholarships and endowments as well. That's cool. Yeah. And that's actually how I introduce what I do to people. Uh, I mean, what, what my day job is, is that I help people start scholarships, endowments. I don't use the technical words like major gifts and advancement because that confuses people.

Yeah. Yeah. You're being very clear with what you do at the end of the day. Yeah. That's great. Well, Heather has some questions, but I wanted to, um, to read something and get your thoughts on this. This is an excerpt from a Spirituality of Fundraising by Henry Nowan, and if you haven't read this, dear listener, [00:13:00] uh, why not?

It's only like 64 pages and it's, it's generously padded, so you could take, you could sit down and read it in 30 minutes, and I'm a slow reader. Okay, so this is from page 18. He says, I'm gonna quote just a little bit here in fundraising. People who work in the marketplace are often wiser than people who work in the church.

Those who are involved in big business know that you never get much money if you beg for it. I remember visiting a successful fundraiser in Texas whose office was filled with beautiful things. I said, how do you dare to ask for money in this office? He replied, my office is part of my way of approaching people.

It's meant to communicate that I know how to work with money, that I know how to make money grow. This inspires confidence in the people I meet, that their investment will be well used. This approach is not for everyone, and [00:14:00] being surrounded by nice things is not the motivation from fundraising as ministry.

Important here is that spiritually, this man is saying, I ask for money standing up, not bowing down because I believe in what I am about. I believe that I have something important to offer. Without apology, he invites people to be a part of his vision.

How does that strike you? Agree. Disagreed. Caveats. I like that. Now one's a fantastic writer and, and, um, theologian. Very deep. And, and so I'll, I'll read, I have all kinds of his books in my house as well. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, yeah, there's this image that, um, you know what, even if you're asking for money, you don't have to [00:15:00] look poor.

Hmm. Like there's a, like, let me share a story. So we had a, we had a consulting company come in and they, they're able to kind of straddle both worlds of talking to our largest donors at the university and um, and also talk to our fundraising team, our development team

with this guy for a couple years. And he was not ready to give you a gift until you showed yourself professional enough. And so our organization had to up our game and show we were professional enough. This last year at our university commencement, he gave a $2 million gift to our university. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Amazing. Yeah. Wow. And I say to people, you know, this is, this is giving, but just some people have more zeros at the end. Sure. Yeah. Zeros are significant. It, but there is a matter of, [00:16:00] uh, people who are business savvy, who work with money a lot more, and they're very comfortable talking about it. I find most people are very comfortable talking about it, especially if you're in the business world, because that's, yeah.

That's, that's okay to talk about money day to day. Yeah. So, so to have that confidence and professionalism ready, I think is really important in fundraising because it, it is a bit of a, a pitch, but also sharing what you're doing for the investment. Yeah. Isn't there a passage where Jesus himself praises like the savvy of, of the, you know, kind of the, the secular businessman of the world and like they know how to get things done in a way that you, that we don't necessarily do in the church.

Yeah. And then, I mean, with mon, I mean, money's such a huge topic. I think it's the number two most talked about topic in the New Testament besides the Kingdom of God. And so money and where your treasure is there, your heart is, so, it's an [00:17:00] incredibly important topic about possessions and treasures and, you know, what does treasure in heaven mean versus treasure on earth?

And then you can't take it with you, as they say, there's no hearse after a U-Haul. Yeah. So, or, uh, that's the other way around. A U-Haul after a hearse. Yeah. Um, so you can't take it with you. So how do you, what do you do with it here? And, um, sometimes it's not even generational wealth and giving, like I've met, uh, families and couples who do not wanna give to their children.

They don't trust them with the wealth of the future. Hmm. Or they've squandered it so that, so, um, people wanna invest in, in different ways for that. But it, it, it's such an important topic and I think it is deeply spiritual to get back to your quote, because I think we were made to give. Mm-hmm. I think that God created us to have a giving component to our life because that's what was instructed, um, in, in Jewish law for tithes and offerings [00:18:00] and, um, and also in the New Testament of offering and giving.

So yeah, I think it's, it's a core component of who we are to give and it feels really good. I mean, Jesus said it's better to give than receive. Yeah. Yeah. And Andy, that reminds me, do you remember, so the other day, Andy and I did a training at a church for some short-term teams that were going out for the summer in their fundraising and after the fact, one of the dads was hanging at around and made a comment to you, Andy, kind of along those lines, right?

Like, what if the whole point of fundraising is giving us an opportunity to, to image God in the giving and in the providing or something like that? You're, yeah. He was quoting something that one of our, one of our leaders had said as he was reading. I think it was, maybe I haven't read it about Paul Tripp has this book about, I think redeeming money and talks about that, like, that was a quote from him.

Like, we're not meant to accumulate. That's not why God gives [00:19:00] us money to hoard it and to, to enlarge our barns and our warehouses. We're, we're meant to, to live in his image and to model. We're, we're, we're just a concourse, we're just a thorough pharaoh of like, we receive and we give. Um, like anything else, like, like the life that we have and the ministry and the, the, the, the forgiveness we've received, all that stuff is meant to flow through us, not just kind of bottle up in us.

Right. So maybe money's the same way. Yeah. Yeah. It, it reminds me too, like, and, and I wonder Rim what you think about this, like, is, is there some psychology to it? When we approach a donor with like, and, and, and maybe just our, our, our marketing is bad or, uh, how we present ourselves is, is not quite up to, to par.

Like I think about like shopping and I think about, and maybe I've used this analogy before, but if I'm looking for marinara and I see the label that this is, I import from Italy [00:20:00] and this is $6 for a pint of marinara, and then right next to it I see the great value brand. Even though essentially they're the same things, I'm gonna, because this is $2 and this is $6, this has gotta be better.

Right. So is there some kind of how you present yourself, is that part of it too? Yeah. How you present yourself is part and parcel of, of the ask. And I mean the solicitation, the closure, everything, because it's the impression people get about you. If the impression right away is apologetic, like, I'm sorry I have to meet about this, but I am asking for the, like, awful.

That's why they say never apologize when you're public speaking. Right. You know, that is not the first thing to do. So, uh, you want to always present yourself as confident and you also need to believe in the ask and what's behind it. And I, I, [00:21:00] people will see through it. So I think to make sure you have your.

Ha have your facts straight and, and be very careful how you approach people as well, because people are funny about money, lemme tell you. And, and like I said, people, some people are very comfortable talking about it and some people are like, how dare you ask me for that amount? I've had that happen too.

Mm-hmm. So you, you have to be very discerning. So wise, the serpents, innocent as doves. I think there's a huge discernment piece of Yeah. How to approach donors. Yeah. Well I love what you said. It's not an act, it's not a facade. It's a natural outflowing of the confidence that you have in your own call to be there in their own vision that you have.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Well, and that, you know, and this kind of goes back to the quote that you shared, Andy, but I think, I think the word that came to mind when you were sharing that quote from Henry Nowan is just this word dignity and this dignity that we have. As [00:22:00] representatives of God and just the dignity that we can take into those spaces, which I think kind of goes to what Akron was saying as well.

And then, um, Akron, you also made a comment earlier about how there's a little bit of it that can feel like sales. And actually, Andy and I had a previous episode this season talking about trying to reframe sales for people that it, it's not sleazy. And I think as defined by Daniel Pink Sales is the ability to move people towards action.

And, and really it's just a meeting, a need that people have. And so, yeah, I was just, I, when you said that word, I was like, yep, we've, we've talked about that, but mm-hmm. You know, you've also mentioned a couple of times just these pillars, and I know that that's kind of a structure that in your work you're able to move through.

So. Maybe in line with that, what lessons have you learned in major gift fundraising that could apply to asking for smaller amounts and maybe how is that contextualized in this, these pillars you've spoken of. [00:23:00] Sure. So I wanna walk through it for the listeners, uh, about some professional aspects of fundraising, uh, and the stages.

And then it might help people to categorize what they're looking now that what they're looking at. That doesn't mean people have, you know, a software database they're working from like I do, you know, but at least to track, you know, in sales they say the hot list. Mm-hmm. Whatever you might have leads, you might, there's a lot of like sales jargon, but I want to talk through the four stages and the first one is qualification.

The second one is solicit, uh, sorry. Cultivation. See, I'm jumping to soliciting already. I just, yes. But the third one is soliciting. So after cultivation, soliciting solicitation, the actual ask, and then after that is stewardship. So we'll talk about the pillars and some, and it might be a cycle, [00:24:00] you know, because it is continuous, uh, for some people.

Um, but let's open up and talk about the first stage of qualification. So, because this is a people based endeavor, you're looking at actual people and entities. Now it could be a business as well. And, uh, once you work with money more, you realize that there are some businesses who have to get rid of money.

Hmm. There are people, like I've learned, it's unbelievable. There are people with family trusts and it's over a certain double digit million, like 26 million in a family trust. They have to give money away. So there are situations and businesses that have to give away money. So all of all of this is in your qualification stage of you're making a list.

Yes. You check it twice. I don't know about the nian nuts, but you do, you do make your list of, and I work with say, entry level fundraisers for my golf team of, okay, we're working on your [00:25:00] list of soliciting, um, for this fundraiser for the spring and our equipment needs and this and that. Um, so they work with, uh, family, friends, previous coaches, uh, dentists.

You think of just all the people and at a, at a young age, like 18 to 21, their, their parents are helping them make a list. They really, I've realized that they don't quite have all the adulting connections to put it that way. Right. They're still kind of under parental, um, connections you could say. And, uh, yeah.

So the qualification stage is really important because you're looking at who, I'll use a word in our industry, it is affinity. So who has the affinity? That's what you're looking for, who is grabbing onto what you're doing and interested. So it's very much discerning [00:26:00] who wants to be a part of what you're doing.

And, and I'm gonna say that wealth doesn't equate to generosity. Yeah. Right? So just because someone you think is loaded, that doesn't mean they're gonna be your biggest donor, right? Um, but you are, you are feeling it out. So, uh, your goal, so objectives, right? We're all, we're teachers. So your objective in the qualification stage is to find out, in my case, with major gifts in the next 18 months, can you ask them for a major gift?

So that's what makes, okay, that's the definition of, to qualify someone. So I think, you know, you don't always have that kind of timeline. It depends on your campaign or what you're doing. Um, but you wanna say, okay, do they have affinity and can I ask them within X timeframe? Will, do you think, do I think I can ask them what, what goes into that decision making process?

Do I, how do you determine, [00:27:00] can I ask them?

Well, do you have a relationship? Is that close enough to ask? Uh, there's that. Have you seen their generosity in other ways? Have they given before to a similar organization or to you personally? Have they, like if we're talking personal giving, have they given you a birthday gift before? Because they're engaged, you're looking for engagement.

Right. And, um. That this could be far and wide. So this is kind of the cold call stage, phishing, whatever you wanna call it. I enjoy it. Like I really enjoy the qualification stage because you're, you know, I, I've kind of been a person called to new areas. That's just what I do. I enjoy it. I wanna see what's out there.

Um, I just hosted an event in Palm Springs, and after that I got flown to Hawaii in my first year. [00:28:00] Nice. So, I mean, that's because someone gave a six figure gift, so that was very nice. I was flying out to say thank you. But I mean, I went to some new places already in my first year that, um, that hasn't been done for a while for this office.

So, um, yeah, qualification. It's kind of like phishing, but you need to cast the nets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So let, let's kind of. Let, let's laser in on, on maybe what our listeners are thinking as far as like, well, my personal fundraising, I mean, there's a, there's a certain amount of sifting, I guess that is gonna naturally occur as you're kind of required to identify, this is probably, you know, a, a green light, yellow light, red light, however you want to categorize that.

Uh, but I think in personal fundraising, man, I, I've said this myself, like, ask everybody, cast the net as wide as you can. Everybody, you know, if it's hundreds, if it's thousands, ask them all, because every little thing helps. Um, [00:29:00] so let's say that there's a, an individual fundraiser that doesn't necessarily, that, let's say there's an individual fundraiser that doesn't necessarily have the runway.

Before departure or before they're launching or whatever it is to do that, there's a time constraint. Like how would you advise them to hone in and like, where should I, where should I really pour my effort into? Well, I know in some cases you cannot go on the field until you're a certain percentage fundraiser.

Exactly right. So the more you're motivated to get over there, you better start asking. Yeah. And making those relationships. And when you start to make that list of qualifying it, it's part and parcel with the next step of cultivating. Because as soon as you qualify someone as a maybe. It's almost better to get a no.

Like very clear No, because then that person is out. [00:30:00] Okay, great. Yeah. I can focus on, on cultivation. I mean the second pillar here. The second step in the cycle of, yeah, okay. I'm gonna start spending time with these people, find out what they're interested in. My case, I'm finding out what was meaningful for them at Bemidji State.

They had an amazing university experience. What did the, you know, was it hockey? We have division one hockey. Was it, that was it. Um, you know, biology, were they a music major? Whatever it was in the university. Um, hear their story, you know, spend time hearing their story. Um, cultivation. I, I think of when I, I was kind of in midyear coming back in the summer from my time overseas.

I wanted to continue to, um. Like, give back to my donors. And so I offered up a workday and I said, I am available, or multiple workdays, I'm available these days to do whatever for your properties. And people took me up on it [00:31:00] like crazy. They worked me. Yeah, they did. They worked me. So I, I wasn't, I wasn't being used.

Um, but I Yeah, you signed up for it. I helped them. Yeah. And they have been investing in me for maybe years. So the fact that I was able to like, do something for them, or maybe they thought, man, this kid owes me either way, whatever, whatever it was. But cultivation, um, yeah, what was really good and it, you know, you continue to cultivate.

So, um, in this second step, you're, you're continuing to meet with people, uh. Hang out, do what they do, be around them because it's gonna get to the heart issues of what are you doing with your life? What matters to you. Yeah. And, um, I, I actually, so I am, you, you need to know yourself. So pers uh, fundraising is very personal about your own personality and your strengths and weaknesses.

So get to know yourself. Take the Myers-Briggs, take whatever else you need to the [00:32:00] Strength Finders. Um, but I know for me, I'm a little task focused. I'm a little TJ thinker, judger guy, and I've learned to like, learn about fp feeling people a little more. I know it's uncomfortable for me. Mm-hmm. But what I've learned, I, I set myself a personal challenge.

So I'm gonna tell you what that is. My personal challenge, when I'm working with cultivation, fps or even, uh, players that I coach who are an fp, I'll say, you know what, Akron, you're going to spend time with them until they end the conversation. Hmm. I'm gonna spend time with them until they end the meeting.

Nice. And I am just like tapping my foot and trying to get onto the next task. Checking your watch. Yeah. But it's like, hey, you have to sometimes put your personality aside and really be with someone until they feel comfortable sharing with you or [00:33:00] knowing that you're the kind of person they can trust to invest in.

Yeah. You, it's hard to fundraise if you don't, if you aren't in the practice of like, just being with people and, and being in community and rubbing shoulders and getting to know, and getting to know them. Um, so that's a challenge if somebody doesn't have a big network. It's, it's very personal and some people want it transactional and just, here's an email, I'm giving you this.

See ya. Some people wanna hang out. So you gotta discern through that. If you have a short list of people, you need to start with that and you need to find leads from those people. And, um, you know, it's, it can be difficult and it can be your timeline overseas or whatever you're doing that maybe you don't have the support network, you know?

Right. And you can ask, but I had an amazing support network overseas to the point where one year [00:34:00] I gave half of my entire year of fundraising to someone else. Awesome. I mean, and that's not 'cause of me. That's 'cause God is good and, you know, owns cattle on a thousand hills. I just kept asking. Yeah. Yeah.

And so there, there are people, you know, if you don't have the money, don't let it stop you. There are people who will jump in to give. Mm-hmm. There, there's a lot to it. It's very. Personal, relational, and spiritual all at the same time. Yeah. And what I love about what you said, Ekron, is you said, put your own personality aside until people feel safe and trust you.

And I just really love that. I can tell that the emphasis behind that isn't, isn't this idea of play up to whatever people want you to be in order to secure the gift, right? Like, that's, that's not the vibe I'm getting from you. But instead just kind of this, like this humility in, in kind of saying like, Hey, I'll, I'll be, [00:35:00] maybe not, I'll get smaller so you can be bigger, but just this, like, I'm going to defer to what I understand you need.

I'm going to, um, honor you in like the way you need me to show up. Um, but in a really genuine way and not in a contrived or. Manipulative way. And I think that that's often the tension in fundraising. You know, that's why people have trouble with the idea of applying a framework or sales because they view it only through the lens of, I'm manipulating you to get what I want, but there really is a way to carry yourself in the same principles that is actually self forgetful in giving of the other person.

You know what I mean? Y yeah. And people can sense that, right? Um, so it, it's good to be upfront about what you're doing as well. It's not just hanging out with people. Like there is an eventual goal of solicitation and people get it. People who are in business and also understand philanthropy, get it. It's like, okay, I am [00:36:00] being cultivated right now, like meeting with the president, meeting with VPs.

I'm going to these important things. Like I expect a big ask coming up. And, and I'm getting to the point, there's kind of some discernment with gift officers or professional fundraisers too, that say, okay, yep, now is a time in their life I can do this. Ask. You know, maybe it is at age 73 when they have their minimum required distribution that they have to give out.

Um, but it could be just, okay, the timeline is there, they've met with all these people, and now is the time to ask. Um, but yeah, you, you need to have it genuine and you just have to be yourself. That's probably the best advice is if you're uncomfortable there. Uncomfortable, like, yeah, absolutely. They can, they can absorb some of your anxiety and your attention as you're, if you're, if you're not comfortable with it.[00:37:00] 

Yeah. And if you wanna, you know, start with, you know, a face-to-face appeal is the most effective. So when you are getting into the ask, which is getting into our third stage or our third pillar here of solicitation, um, that is the most effective. Not all people wanna be communicated with the same way either.

Sure. So I, I think it's best to say if you set out for a fundraising relationship and stewardship, just be upfront about it. Yeah. Is like, um, Hey, I know you're let, like let's take a dentist. I know you've been our family dentist this long. This is what I think I'm called to do in my life right now. Can you jump on board and be a part of it?

This is what I'm asking for. Be specific with the dollar amount. I'm asking you for one 50 a month for the next two years. Do you think you can commit to that and then leave it? And the first one to [00:38:00] talk lose is they say, yeah, no, but the. The reality is when you give your, you lead up to the true solicitation point, you let them talk first.

Mm, yes. Yeah. Always. Totally. Always. Because you're leading up to the point of that ask when you're crafting it, and yeah. You just be honest and authentic. People know it's coming. You're both relieved when the ask is done, to be honest. So people don't wanna feel like they're buttered up over and over and like, yeah, stop buttering, go dairy free.

Let's, let's get to it. Well, let me, let me dip back into cultivation just for a second. As I think about the lens of our, of our kind of, um, for individual fundraisers, like let's say they have donors that are giving very sporadically or occasionally, um, do you have any thoughts about how we move someone [00:39:00] like that into a more consistent relationship given pattern?

Yes. Yes. I work with all kinds of giving in all aspects now in my day job. Um, so we have a director of annual giving and then those people kind of, how do we move someone from annual or sporadic giving into pledging like, yeah, like full on pledge, full on big gift into the major gift category. Um, because people are, they have what I said before, affinity, so there is some level of it.

Um, so we're, we're finding out how to cultivate sporadic giving into a solid committed gift, right? So I think, uh, on your part, do the, do the numbers of what you think. Now you don't have access to a wealth rating, like our organization uses Razor's Edge. So, um, you know, there are wealth ratings [00:40:00] in there.

There's a background you can look up. Public knowledge of people's real estate holdings, all kinds of things. Hmm. Um, however, you, you know, you might, might not have all that information so you could talk to people if they know them about their capacity. We use that word as well. What is the capacity of a donor?

But, um, you, yeah. You'll want to make sure that's clear when you craft your ask, because that needs to be appropriate for their wealth rating. Sure. How does that play into, because something you said that really struck me earlier was just this, this idea that wealth does not equate to generosity. And so how does, does kind of like knowing that play into the way that you match the ask with the capacity?

Yeah. I think it's what kind of I. [00:41:00] Objective or campaign? Are you asking for? I, I think there are different kinds of giving is what we're getting at. It's like, you know, someone will love to give you 30 a month or a year and just be fine with that. And that's just not a hardship. And they're, you know, they're a core giver.

Keep them, love them steward. And, and that's all you're gonna get. And that's okay. Is like, you need that consistent. You need backbone giving in your, your mission. You have to have that because that's gonna set your budget, it's gonna set so much. Um, there are just people that are beyond small gifts, and that's why I focus on major gifts is okay, they're not just sporadic.

Once in a while they are, they are ready to start a scholarship. They are ready to, um, in, in the largest sense, we call it a transformational gift. That would be a [00:42:00] million dollars or more. So it's like people who are fundraising to go overseas aren't raising a million dollars, but organizations are, and um, and some people are ready for a transformational gift ask, which takes potentially years to get to that stage of cultivation.

So I, I think the smaller the amount, the less the cultivation. Yeah. And I guess also related to cultivation, before we kind of switch gears to speaking more about crafting the ask, what are some recommendations you would have for people to just have in mind as they desire to build trust and rapport?

Whether that's over a short term or what over kind of like years of stewardship? Yeah. I like to tell people that everyone has a gift. You're all gifted at something, everyone's good at something and you have that gift to share, whether it's hospitality or. Excuse me, helps, [00:43:00] whatever that might be. And so just, just love on people and be with them and kind of look for the need with them and kind of look for who would you want to be supporting you when you go overseas or when you're doing this?

Who do you want on your top list? And I, I remember a sermon I heard years ago of, you know, when Paul's ending one of his letters, it's listing all the people who helped him. And the person explaining the message was, ditch your stuff. Bring the list. Mm-hmm. It's not about stuff, it's about who's on your list That got you there.

So if you can just think of, wow, I want this business to, I wanna spend more time with this person and this person. I can give this, I can give my time to walking their dog ver you know, very, I. Out of the clouds, practical stuff. Okay. [00:44:00] I can babysit, I can help rake a yard shovel snow. I can be there for them.

I, it'll turn into a powerful relationship. I have great relationships with donors 20 years later of, I will not forget them. Yeah. I will not forget their generosity. Um, and they will not forget supporting me because their treasure was where their heart is. Yeah. So it, it sounds there is a cool relationship.

It sounds a lot more like a relationship, like a partnership and not just a a, a sponsorship. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it, and it sounds like we need to be comfortable, uh, circling back to people after a while. Would you say that's true? Like just because someone starts out giving a hundred dollars here and there, um, maybe once they've seen Wow.

Really is faithful in how he communicates with me. Wow. I'm really catching a vision for what he's doing. Does it make sense to then kind of reengage? Maybe you're, maybe you're cycling back [00:45:00] to a qualification or maybe you're, I don't know, you're, you're, you're continuing that the cycle. Yeah. And a practical step for qualifying people, the very first step is if you don't hear back or have a reciprocal invitation with three touches, move on.

Hmm. Okay. This is text, email, or call. If you do not have a reciprocal response in that qualification stage, just move on. And that's okay. You can keep 'em on a list, but don't spend your efforts. You only have so much time and effort. Uh, work on your cultivation list. People who are already qualified, and, uh, if someone, let me tell you, Andy, if someone's given you anything, there's potential.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because at some point they had affinity for something. Yeah. The hardest is the never givers. It's like, okay, this is a total cold call. Like I make these calls every week [00:46:00] is okay, total cold call. I think this is the right number you, you run into, you don't have the right contact info in this case.

Right. But, um, does someone have any affinity or the institution, or the organization, um, but you, you do wanna make sure you've, you've combed through the who's who. Something you said just a moment ago has made me curious. You said something to the effect of like, make sure this is a person you want to like, have on your team.

Um, or this is a person that like you'd love to go through this with or whatever to partner with. Have you ever had people that were, their capacity was large, so they had money to give, but you were like, you know what? I don't think there's alignment, so I'm not actually going to ask. Has that ever happened for you?

Yes. And I would say in my. Professional role now, because I am still in my, I guess, hometown, not where I was born, but [00:47:00] a, a relationship that's too personal. I don't wanna ask for that amount of money. Um, so I guess that's when I would say no. And maybe if it's a, a business or personality that I just don't wanna work with, I guess.

Um, yeah. Yeah. I don't want to have to kiss up like, and, and if they don't treat me well, like it's not worth the money. Right. Yeah. And in personal fundraising, you know, we will coach people sometimes that sometimes people's giving can come with some expectation and sometimes that expectation is fair. You know, they expect to hear from you, they expect to have insight into what's happening in your ministry, but other times those expectations can actually feel more unhealthy, you know, like an expectation to know really minutely what, what you're doing with your budget.

You know, there can be some [00:48:00] like wonky expectations and so I didn't know if, if, you know, working with people that had substantial gifts, whether that sometimes came with this kind of incredible burden of expectation Spring attached. Yeah. Like spring's attached. Yeah. Oh, there is, there is. And you definitely wanna be careful of people who will, will come in with their gift and try and run your organization or your mission or whatever.

Because that, that's a very fine line to walk and I don't deal with our largest portfolio, uh, donors. Um, but when people give a large amount, they know they have power and they wanna say of what's going on. You do need to guard against that. And then, you know, there are going to be people who are upset with your organization at some point too.

So you'll need to deal with donor fallout and, and mending fences and patching. And I've, I've had good and [00:49:00] not so good experiences on both sides of that so far. Um, yeah. But to, to watch, to watch out for that because there also is. There's all kinds of fraudulent activity with money. Let's be honest.

There's embezzlement, there's, uh, fictitious giving, there's laundering, there's, I mean, so there's just a, you need to, people need to know you're a trustworthy source and your organization is a trustworthy source. So I will have people who are asking to give, and immediately they say, how much is going to your admin fund?

Sure. Yeah. So you need about that. How much are you actually getting? Yeah, yeah. How much are you getting? How much are your players getting, you know, what they actually think they're fundraising for. A lot of people don't wanna raise for overhead or other people's salaries. Yeah. How important is transparency in those cases?

You better know what you're, you better know. Yeah. You need, you need to know, and you need to tell them. Yeah. Yeah. Be straightforward. [00:50:00] If the 5% charge stops their giving, so be it. Because, because that's, most organizations will take a percentage for administrative fee. That's factual. It's reality. Mm-hmm.

It's industry standard. So just it's okay, but just be upfront. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's get down to what we were talking about a little bit already. We kind of hinted at it and the solicitation that the actual ask. What, what are the essential components for an effective ask at any level? Well, great question.

So let's start at the smallest level is you. You need to know what you're doing and why and for how long and the amount of money. So what you're doing and why and how long and the amount of money. So when you know all that, you can present it to someone in, in a small way. Say you're asking for 50 a month.

Um, I recently took [00:51:00] on a new, um. Person 'cause I was convicted. I need to take on a new person to give. And uh, I was able to help them on their pitch. To me, it was funny, it was kind of full circle. Yeah. I would, I, you know, we got to it and they say in recruiting, because I do college golf recruiting is like, the hardest part is to talk about money.

Don't ever forget to talk about the money part. Make it as standard as any other thing you're showing facilities, schedule what, whatever. So when you're asking, um, you do want to have that clear. So yeah, at the end of the conversation I was like, okay, how much do you want? You know, how long is this for?

You know, it's just like, yeah. Like let's be clear prompting. It's totally fine to talk about money. Yeah. Yeah. Remember I'm the one who wanted to give to you. Yeah. So, so in a, yeah. In the smaller gift giving, um, just have. Your answer's ready. [00:52:00] I especially put in timeline there because people wanna know how long they're giving.

They don't want a perpetuity gift. Right? I mean that when I deal with scholarship and endowment, it is invested in a market and there's a into perpetuity giving after 25,000. So they know that it will continue giving. But in, in the case of just a short term one year, can you commit to, this is way easier than saying, can you commit to 50 and I don't know how long I'll be overseas or whatever.

Yeah, that's tough. Now, I've always said that your best supporters are gonna support you through anything. Doesn't matter if you're overseas or at home, they'll understand. But you do. I I do like to give a timeline. I think that, that you should, because the affinity is so high. Yeah. You're close. They're gon, they know life has its ups and downs and uncertainties and illnesses and relationships and all that.

Uh, they'll, they'll support you. But you, you definitely need to [00:53:00] communicate the changes that are being made if there are in, in your life direction. Yeah. I mean, you're not just going overseas, you're taking a group of people with you through this journey. They are like sometimes living vicariously through your dream and calling of doing that for sure.

They, they can't because they're not whatever the reason, uh, single mortgage dog to take care of lawn de mow. Like, there's so many commitments that once you get back into Americana life, like the people who are the unfettered and free are the most able to make those quick decisions. Um mm-hmm. So, so you wanna make sure you're always communicating, uh, what you plan to do.

So that's my answer. To explain about a smaller ask. Yeah. See, see what happens. I think that's really helpful. What, why, how much, how long? That feels like a super [00:54:00] bite-sized. Yeah, so bite-sized and, and really something that can, I think, fit into a 32nd elevator pitch and then extend into a half hour, or, you know, hour and a half presentation.

Yeah. So that's really great. Mm-hmm. I'm curious, Akron, we were recently having a conversation where they said no is a gospel answer, which I think we can tend to forget, but how do you personally handle getting a no? Any tips? Yeah. I Do you ever get nos? Of course. Yes, of course. How do you handle rejection?

Yeah. Um, that's the biggest thing I, I think in professional fundraising or kind of the mantra that I came up with for myself is go until it's a no. Yeah. Make pe make people say no to you. Not, not be mean. So they say No, this is like, yeah, keep, keep presenting your need, make the need known. Always make the need [00:55:00] known, and then walk with them until it is a no.

And then, and then you, then you do know as a knowledge. Yeah. But, but what does that do to you as a person when they, when they reject you? Uh, you can't take it personally. Yeah. Yeah. You can't, yeah. That's, don't, don't take it personally. It just, people are giving in all kinds of different ways and just, you might not line up with their convictions or financial picture giving goes in and out because people's financial situation changes.

So, yeah. You know, I have people who are telling me, I, I do wanna start an endowment, but not right now. Okay. Well, they're still, they're kind of on a burner for who knows how long. Um, yeah. Or they say, I'm. The, the most clear is I'm not interested in giving to your organization right now. Right. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Sounds good. And you handle it professionally. You don't go and cry [00:56:00] about it. You don't take it personally. Mm-hmm. It just, okay, they're not you, you know, you can't get beat up about it. How do you feel like that, do you feel like that would feel the same? You know, think back to Ekron that was fundraising for his support based work.

Does it feel any different for you to be asking on behalf of your own mission and considerations versus asking on behalf of an organization? Or would you say that you, you feel like you could handle those the same? I think I'm pretty similar. I know some people who say I couldn't ask for my own salary.

I could only ask for an organization, but I've done both. So I, I'm comfortable with both. I'm asking on behalf of what I believe in. And there, I think they're good things and great opportunities. I wouldn't be the person I am without the school I went to, you know, I can reflect on that and I don't want to guilt someone in if they're on the fence and say, don't you [00:57:00] think this university has been this part of your life and meant a lot to you?

You know, you don't have to really necessarily go there. But, um, so, you know, people are, people are being sold to all the time everywhere. So you just need to handle it professionally and, and just be clear. And when you're getting to the point of solicitation, like I said, if you can schedule a face-to-face and just tell them The purpose of this meeting is to go over my solicitation with you, or to go over my, my request.

I mean, if they say yes, that's huge. That is a green light. They're going to give. They will, they didn't meet with you to just say no. So just think if you can get a face to face, it's a yes. And you're clear. It's so important to be clear up front Yeah. And confident and, and know this is what you're called to do.

This is our need. We're excited about it. [00:58:00] Can you partner with us? Yeah. You know, and let them talk. Let them just, just talk about it. Because there are needs in all kinds of organizations. Yeah. Well it, it strikes me that if we're offended when people say no, then we're casting vision for the wrong thing.

We're casting vision for ourselves. It's not about you. We're casting vision for, for a, for a mission, for an organization, for a purpose. And if they don't align, if there, if there's no affinity, it's not, they don't have affinity for you as a person. There's just no connection there for that particular cause.

Right. And they may be just over. Expended in their giving already. Yeah, right. There are plenty of people who give to multiple organizations and you know, you just, they can't take on one more person or they have these unseen expenses. Sure. Or medical, or you just have to listen to them about what it is.

But [00:59:00] I would say they are different kinds of asking. Asking for your own personal and asking for an organization.

All right. Let's take it into the last pillar, stewardship. What do you think is the most important factor in stewarding donor relationships? Well, the

most important factor is don't forget people who got you there, is always remember them and always thank them and just don't forget to say thank you at a minimum. And I was kind of convicted of that the last. I dunno, a couple years is like, people do stuff for me all the time. I need to just say thank you and people are expecting that.

Um, but it also, you know, builds in that thankfulness part of your life, which is, you know, gratefulness is really important. It's a nice counterbalance to [01:00:00] bitterness. I mean, if you're grateful and thankful, you can't be bitter at the same time, like, so, um, stewardship is so important because don't what I'm telling you a not to do, don't make people feel like a project and, and nobody wants to feel used.

So you always want to thank them. And I've learned there are a lot of creative and cool ways to thank people in the stewardship phase. Hmm. And I personally, like they track all of my, like what I'm spending my time doing. Yeah. As far as an action item, so my action items as a gift officer are mostly in cultivation.

Okay. Okay. Um, they're the least in stewardship. So what I'm telling you is I have to really be careful and, and to steward people property properly. Yeah. Because that's the kind of end of the cycle, which could start a new cycle. But you need to thank them. You need to honor people, you need to, uh, make sure that they know their investment mattered.[01:01:00] 

And, and it's not fluff. It's like genuine. I, I imagine that it's as far as like your expenses and energy as a, as a fundraiser, as a, as a department, it's much more costly to cultivate and, and, uh, qualify. It's less than it is to steward like that. Yes. It doesn't take much effort just to, just to keep those people around rather than find new people.

Yes. There's so much energy and effort into those stages. You're correct. Stewardship is a whole branch that we have to pay attention to though. So people, um, continue to engage. So at minimum they need a written Thank you. So this is like, you know, practical tips. Yeah. Um, you know, minimum, even more personal touch.

A call, a phone call. I get it. We text [01:02:00] and people, you know, maybe a text is fine. Okay. There's another minimum step is a text, but a number of people want to call it is more personal. And, and you should, especially with someone who you know, who is one of your big donors or just backbone donors. Um, what if it's like Gen Z to Gen Z at grt?

Well, if you call me, it must be an emergency. Yeah. Right. Why would you ever, ever call me? Yeah.

So I know, I know there are different communication forms, uh, you wanna consider, I know it's a lot to consider in fundraising, but you wanna consider the age you're working with. If you're working with someone 50 and older, you have to call them. Just, you have to, that's what's expected. And you need to be ready to spend time with people and hear from them.

You can host people for dinners, you can make awards for them. You can make people feel special in all kinds of ways. Ideal in, in the [01:03:00] university sense, we honor people, so we honor people with their lifetime achievement awards, with, uh, plaques, with outstanding alumni, all kinds of different things. We have a legacy society for people who have given and planned giving for, uh, part of their estate or were in their will.

So you want to properly honor people at this stage of stewardship. Yeah. And Andy, you know, you, you made the comment that it likely, you, you likely spend more energy in the cultivation, qualifying, cultivation stage and then. Maybe not as much in the stewardship, and I think that's because in those stages you're building a lot of trust and rapport and ideally at the stewardship level, if you're able to just maintain that trust, then I think what you said is true.

But if something happens to break trust, then I think it actually can be quite a lot of work. And so I think that even just speaks to what Akron's saying. It's so important to, even if you don't have as much [01:04:00] time to give to this element, it's so important to do it well or it's going to start demanding more time.

This is why stewardship and the whole cycle is relational and not just transactional, right? If you think of it as just transactional, we're not buying and selling widgets. We're not just driving through and getting a cup of coffee and getting it and moving on. So much of our society is set up for transactional and we need to keep in mind that this is relational and people need to continue to be, uh, communicated with.

And given gifts, give them stuff. Yeah. There's all, I mean, if you go overseas, there's all kinds of unique cool things you can get. And they, people love that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I was watching this video the other day about, um, and maybe I think Heather, you shared it with me. At its core, it was about body language, you know, it was about communicating, um, through body [01:05:00] language.

But the, the, the guest was saying the, the way that you, one of the ways that you authentically pour into people and you build relationship is by just in the moment, genuinely, um, thinking about them, like, like reflecting to them when you thought about them. So it doesn't have to be, I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you a.

Uh, a postcard from the Great Wall or whatever it is. It could be just, Hey, I was walking down the market and I saw this and I know that just reminded me of you. And to, to shoot him a quick, a quick text or a quick message, um, that feels very intentional, very authentic, very personal. Not here. I'm sitting down in my, in my, my, um, my job of sending out a bunch of, uh, kind of canned texts.

Like this is like a one-off text that I'm sending mm-hmm. That just kind of reminds them of you. Um, so I don't know. What do you think about that? Do you think that could [01:06:00] be, that that could translate over to fundraising world too? 100% do that. Yeah. That is fantastic because you need to show people, you're thinking of them even in your quote, busyness overseas.

Yeah. If people don't necessarily expect that, but Wow, you thought of me like we, uh, our, my wife and I are supporting. People in Turkey right now. And I, I was looking, I don't know how it came up, but I, I saw a design for Turkish tulip embroidery, and I said, this is so cool. I, I don't know how I can get it, but I'm gonna ask them if they could find me something with Turkish tulip.

And so they went on one trip and they came back and they gave me, uh, like a, a plastic bag with the design on it. And I said, that's so cool that you found that. I can't believe that you remembered me. I'm not even a huge donor. Yeah. And, and that wasn't the end of it. Like a year later, I [01:07:00] wanna say they brought back an entire tapestry of a tulip, Turkish tulip pattern.

Wow. Like a table cloth. Yeah. Wow. And now it's in our house as like a, an amazing, you know, showpiece. Oh, cool. Yeah. And so I, I mean, it was a small request, but they took it seriously. And how did that make you feel, as like, as even one of their minor donors? Well, Andy, I had to feel, so that was a challenge.

You had to find a way to resuscitate your heart of stone. That's right. It was, it was like, wow. They remembered, they considered me. That was very meaningful. And that increased our relationship. Yeah. Um, so I, yeah. So we maintained the giving and um, yeah, just I was very impressed. And even if you don't increase your giving or whatever, like you're thinking of them every time you walk past that.

Exactly. [01:08:00] That's significant. Yeah. Yeah. You're encouraging them, praying for them. Um, and, and that's, that's what it is, is you're building a team. Mm. What whatever it is, you're building a team to. Whatever your metaphor is, you know, raising the wall or whatever it is. Yeah. Holding the rope. Yep. Exactly. So your stewardship is so important.

And we, yeah. Our office sends out chocolates, we send out cards. We have a budget for it. I'll tell you what, carve out money for it, because it's that important of, of thanking people needs to be done. Right. But if you don't have money, we're going back to the initial stage of you can still do things for people.

You can host a meal, you can do a work day, shovel snow, do a work day. Yeah. Yeah. Shovel snow. Yeah. Because pe guess what I mean, I'm a property manager too, so, uh, of course, of course you are. Yeah. Take on too much. [01:09:00] Um, but I mean, I, I basically, you know, like in my earlier years, like I gave everything to go overseas, like all my money, all my stuff, like.

I was totally committed. I came back with like $1,200 to my name. So it's like, you know, you can, you can't outgive God, so when you're going to give, you're going to get back so much more. And, um, yeah. But properties don't take care of themselves, so you can always help people with properties. Yeah. Well, I, I, I suspect that, that people picked up on your commitment, whether or not you told every single person I've sold everything that came through in how you were communicating with them and, and interacting with them.

That's my suspicion. Hmm. It was a cha it was a challenge. I also learned to not judge your donors. Because one time, one time I was, I was at a donor's house and I kicked back in their chair and I said, this is a really nice leather chair. Like, just curious, how much is it? And it was like [01:10:00] $1,800 for a leather chair and a footstool.

And I said, oh my goodness, I could get back overseas for this, you know, and that was the wrong thing to say. That was the wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's blunt coming out. Yeah. Yeah. No joke there. You gotta be careful there. Just, you need, you need to treat your donors, uh, like Mon Money has very different levels of what is expensive or not for people, so just don't comment on that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm. It's very relative. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alright, so as we kind of come to the end of our conversation, I'm curious, is there kind of one lesson from major gift fundraising that has surprised you that could totally apply to someone raising personal support? I think my biggest happy surprise in major gift fundraising is how generous people are.

Good. Unbelievable. That's good. I, I've worked with fundraising for [01:11:00] years in the. Tens of thousands of dollars. I am now working with hundreds of thousands of dollars into the millions in giving. And it's unbelievable. The money is out there, the, the donors are out there. It's a matter of finding who that is.

So I just, I have a lot more growth mindset than fixed mindset maybe of just, uh, people are there and they are generous. They just need to be engaged with it and have affinity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I've been pleasantly surprised. Um, and maybe it's just in my first year there's low hanging fruit, but I do find it more and more as encounter other people, that people are very generous.

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, as a final word, what else would you say to our listeners as they persevere in support based ministry? Emphasis [01:12:00] on persevere. You know, it's just one part of it. Because if you're language learning or you're, you're building your team to go overseas or you're building an organization, whatever that might be, uh, it is work.

And so to discipline yourself to set up work times for it, don't just act on your feelings. This is when I feel like doing it or not, even though that is maybe the best way to do it when you're motivated, but there is some certain discipline that you need to do. Um, so to be disciplined, to persevere and to also remember, you don't know how long your calling is going to be for an overseas thing or whatever you're doing, right?

You just, you don't know. Doors closed, doors open. Things happen. Health things happen. Life is short. So I mean, you just need to go for it, like [01:13:00] just. You work hard and, and enjoy what you're being called to. Yeah. Um, and it can be a grind sometimes, don't get me wrong. I mean, that's, that's part of the discipline of it.

But Yeah. You know, as they say, you, you carry your disciplines until they carry you. Mm-hmm. So if you can be disciplined about fundraising as well, it will carry you. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. We, we, we come across all different types of people. I think we've almost like got to a point where we can identify some archetypes in, in how people, uh, approach fundraising.

But there's definitely a, a certain, uh, group of people who will approach it like, well, I'm, I'm gonna, if, if, if in our, in our situation, right. If the Lord wants me to, to be over there, he is gonna make it happen. But I, I hear a tenacity. In your response, like you also [01:14:00] have to just get after it. You do. And not like strength finders, whatever.

Activator's my number one. So it's like that checks out. I'm, I'm so ready to take something on and start something up. Not everyone is that way, and that's okay. Maybe you need to find an activator personality and like partner with them and like, that's a good tip. Hey, I, I don't, I don't really have the giddy up.

Can you help me to think of ideas to do it or go with me to do this thing or set this up for me, or whatever. Like, people have different administrative gifts too, and so if you're doing an event that requires all kinds of administration, so find someone to help you Yeah. With that who you will, you, you will not be offended when they come to you and say, Hey, how's it going?

How have you been doing? And what have you been doing? Exactly. Even someone that can, can have that candid conversation with you. Hmm. And when I, when I looked at [01:15:00] long-term, that was a different kind of ask. Definitely very different than a short-term, here's a two week trip, wherever. Yeah. When I looked at long-term, I was thankful for the organization I was with who had a person who called and checked on me.

It was probably every three weeks. Mm-hmm. Monthly and just said, how's it going? How are your levels? You talking to people? Like, I would not be where I was for, for four years if it wasn't for that initial person checking in on me. Because it was kind of like a year mentorship. I took a year to actually raise what I needed to, to get.

So I took a while to do it, but it, it was done right and fully funded, um, the way, but I needed that mentorship. So I think finding someone to keep you accountable, super important. Yeah. Yeah. Good. And your show is awesome. I wanna say just opening up the world to people about it and encouraging them. Like, just thank you for what you're doing with this podcast.

Yeah, it's [01:16:00] impressive. Share it to all your friends. Yes, exactly. Well, Heather has our final question and that's our often one of our favorites. Alright, so Akron, you've been invited to give a TED talk and you take the stage in just 10 minutes and you cannot speak on major gift fundraising. What's your talk going to be about?

Oh my goodness. Okay. Uh, two things come to mind. So it, in a serious realm, I would cover the results of my doctoral dissertation. Mm-hmm. Which was. Yeah. Factors that make a nationally ranked division two NCA men's golf team. So it's like exactly what I'm doing as a head coach. But I interviewed 14 nationally ranked coaches.

Three of them won a national title, and I know what it takes to win a national title. Hmm. Cool. So I, I, yeah, I would, [01:17:00] I would talk about that and talk about competitive advantage and all that goes into it and administrative support and the factors I found. So that would be like my kind of business, uh, TED talk.

Yeah. But if I had a For fun Ted Talk. Yeah. Because it is the season. I would talk about how to make maple syrup. Oh, oh really? Yes. Okay. So I'm a maple syrup producer and our trees are tapped right now and it's the season. That sounds like I'd like to try that. Oh yeah. Very welcome. So I could walk you through every step.

Well, when I say I'd like to try that, let me be clear. I would like to sample your products. Yeah. I would like to sample the end product. I would not like to check the taps every day. Put all the SAP into a container. Boil it down a 40 to one ratio. Yeah. And then have your product 40 to one. 40 gallons to one gallon of [01:18:00] syrup.

No wonder it's so expensive. Exactly. Yeah. Time intensive. Now there are ways around it. Reverse osmosis machine, whatever else, but the fact remains it's labor intensive. Yeah. Very cool though. I mean less calories than honey and all the antioxidants. It's an amazing natural sweetener. Yeah, man. The problem with this question is it leaves me wanting to ask more, so hopeful that people will actually do this, that they will actually get in touch with Ted and like give their talk.

Yeah. So fun. Well, Rin, thank you so much for your time. This has been such, such a fruitful conversation. I think there's really so many elements that apply to personal fundraising. I'm just really thankful that you've taken the time out of your schedule to chat with us. Yeah, yeah, it was great. So good to see you again too.

Thank you. I appreciate both of you and what you're doing and uh, I'm just glad to [01:19:00] contribute and be able to help some people and encourage them and what they're called to do too.

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