Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World

Brian Kelmar:Breaking Down Barriers: One Father's Fight to Reform Legal Treatment of Autism

• Tony Mantor

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Brian Kelmar shares his inspiring journey of creating Decriminalize Developmental Disabilities (D3), an organization helping families whose autistic loved ones become entangled in the criminal justice system. 

His personal experience with his teenage son's case revealed a shocking truth: many states fail to recognize developmental disabilities in criminal proceedings, despite acknowledging conditions like mental illness or addiction.

• Working to change laws, perceptions, and education around autism in the justice system
• Fighting against "counterfeit deviance" - when autistic behavior is misinterpreted as criminal intent
• Successfully passing multiple Virginia laws including mandatory autism training for law enforcement
• Creating diversion programs allowing judges to consider developmental disabilities during sentencing
• Helping families navigate the overwhelming complexities of the criminal legal process
• Addressing how autistic individuals can be easily manipulated into criminal situations without understanding
• Providing resources and research documentation to level the playing field against prosecutors
• Hosting monthly support meetings where families share experiences and learn from each other
• Working to expand successful Virginia legislative models to other states

Reach out to us at DecriminalizedDevelopmentalDisabilities.org or D3org.org if your family is facing these challenges. Remember: never let your child speak to law enforcement without a lawyer, educate them about vulnerable situations, and know that one person can create meaningful change - and that person can be you.


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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)

Speaker 1:

Welcome to why Not Me? The World podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Their stories Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me? The World Humanity Over Handcuffs the Silent Crisis special event. Joining us today is Brian Delmar, who will share his inspiring journey with his autistic son and the legal system which ultimately led him to establish D3, decriminalize Developmental Disabilities. It's an honor to have him on the show. We're grateful to have the opportunity to amplify his story, sparking hope and driving meaningful change. Thanks for coming on. Sure, if you would tell me a little bit about your organization?

Speaker 2:

So we've created an organization that's called Decriminalized Developmental Disabilities. We work with families whose children or family members have gotten caught up in the criminal justice system, who have either intellectual developmental disabilities or other developmental disabilities such as autism. We work with them either from the start of the process, when they enter the criminal justice system, or as they're going through that. We try to give them resources. We give them history of what's worked well, what hasn't worked well and just emotional support as well. We have what's called a wine and wine once a month where you can do a little bit of both, but not too much of either, so that you can share with other families what you're going through and they share experiences and learn from each other and support each other. We also work to change, and that is a big part of our organization is trying to create change.

Speaker 1:

What type of changes are you working towards?

Speaker 2:

Change the laws, change perceptions, change the education. So people understand autism and developmental disabilities and how these family members get caught up in these situations because of their autism, not because they're criminal deviants. In fact it's called counterfeit deviance. It appears to be deviant behavior but it's not. It's a situation that they do not understand and once they do understand that, they go oh my gosh, I didn't know I was doing this, that was wrong. There's a lot of psychological and medical history and research to back a lot of this that we were talking about.

Speaker 1:

How long have you been doing this?

Speaker 2:

We started the organization back in 2016. We were originally called Legal Reform for Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities and we decided to rename it because what it really is is we're trying to decriminalize developmental disabilities and you see these stories all the time. You know very tragic situations where people are shot by law enforcement or kids taken advantage of or kids getting kicked out of school and it has to do with sensory overload and how they process things and then it gets them in trouble.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's so true. This is a great thing you're doing. What led you to get involved like you are?

Speaker 2:

About 13, 14 years ago, my own son was a teenager and he got caught up in a criminal justice process. It was devastating. It has been devastating to not only to him, to us, to our entire family. And one of the things that just shocked me and really got me just saying how can this happen? Is during the sentencing the judge said clearly this person has a developmental disability and didn't understand the situation. But unfortunately, the Commonwealth of Virginia does not recognize developmental disabilities. That just stuck with me for years. It's like they recognize mental illness, they recognize alcoholism, they recognize drug abuse, they recognize PTSD, but how can you not recognize in the criminal justice system something that you're born with a developmental disability, that part of their brain works differently from a neurotypical brain, and how can that not be taken into account? So I started telling my story about my son and the way we originally started was we were asked to speak at a webinar with the ARC of the US on criminal justice. Typically on their webinars and this was back about 14 years ago Webinars and Zooms weren't that big and they had about 100, 150 people across the country sign up typically for a webinar. They brought up our situation and our topic of autism in the criminal justice system and over a thousand people signed up. It went our topic of autism in the criminal justice system and over 1,000 people signed up. It went over the capacity of what the webinar could handle and there were even more waiting to get in.

Speaker 2:

So we spoke with the ARC afterwards and we said so myself and another lady, carol Neskis and I. We said, well, we're not the only ones in the world that are facing this. We thought it was us. We thought it was an isolated situation. I, we're not the only ones in the world that are facing this. We thought it was us. We thought it was an isolated situation. And so why don't we form a subgroup of the arc of the US? And we did.

Speaker 2:

Another person joined us, jude Harrison. And just by word of mouth people go oh yeah, let me tell you. And everyone had a story. Oh my gosh, this is a lot bigger than we ever could have imagined. So we turned it into a nonprofit and from then on I usually get two to three people from all over the country that call me about their son or their daughter or their family member. It's even probably bigger than that. A lot of parents don't want to talk about it because they are embarrassed or shamed. I talk to parents and they don't even tell their own family members that their son or daughter is caught up in the criminal justice system like this.

Speaker 1:

Unfortunately, it's getting more and more common. When you started, what were some of the first things that you did? When you look at it, you have a big mountain to climb. Many times, the only thing that you can do is inch by inch, foot by foot, with hopes of climbing the mountain all the way to the top.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's really how I look at it. That's exactly how we look at it is the things that we're changing. As we say, we're chipping away at the mountain. So, one of the things that I said what's our first line of defense? Well, we have to educate people with developmental disabilities about situations or what's correct behavior and what is incorrect, and once they learn since they're very rule bound because it helps them understand the world around them, because the world is overwhelming and confusing sometimes once they learn the rules, they stick to the rules, because they can revert back to that and go okay, I'm supposed to do one, I'm supposed to do two, I'm supposed to do three, but they will never.

Speaker 2:

It tears them apart to deviate from that. So one of the things we said well, we have to educate them. So I had talked to a lot of people, I met with the local ARC and they introduced me to my state legislator and she was A very or she still is a very sharp lady. She was a doctor. She understood it. So what we did is we introduced legislation that year that said if you have an IEP for a person with developmental disabilities, you must include as part of that, education, starting in kindergarten and every single grade, all the way through 12th grade, appropriate behavior education, whether that's sexual health or whether that's understanding the things that they go through as they develop. You know, as a teenager, what are appropriate behaviors. For example, we've had autism kids. They watch football. What is the football players? After they do a good job, they pat the guy on the back, on the backside, you know, or on the back. So they think, well, if I do that, I'm telling this person great, well, you do that to a woman, right, that's an assault. Or even to a person another person assault. But they see this and this is a very popular sport and they're watching this and they go oh look, that's how he's congratulating. So I should do the same thing. And they mimic that situation. So something as benign as that to them not learning about sexual behavior. And where does anybody find any information? You Google it and that can take you down a rabbit hole down to some bad places, and they don't understand that because no one has ever explained it. Most of us learn about these appropriate behaviors from our friends and in the locker room as we were growing up in junior, high and high school.

Speaker 2:

The autistic individuals a lot of them don't have families. I don't have friends like that. They're the odd one, they're the weird one out, so nobody talks to them and nobody takes them on. So that's how we kind of evolved and developed. That was the first bill we introduced here in Virginia, and then the next one was what about if they do get up in the criminal justice system? Is there anything to get them out of it? So one of the things we said if it gets to the sentencing phase, there should be consideration for diversion, and that one's been a very successful one. So if they had pleaded guilty or did a plea bargain, the judge could say all right time out. What's going on here? This is a developmental disabilities. Let's get this person education and diversion and then we'll come back and look at it and see if this is deviant behavior or if they've learned and we can move on. And we've been very successful with that one.

Speaker 1:

That's really good to hear how far apart were these cases that you did this for.

Speaker 2:

This was all in the same year. We had one, that's Bill, that said, well, because we had one of the family members that had somebody who didn't make it through that process and ended up in prison, and we said record about two inches thick saying he's autistic. I have all the documentation. They went, no, no, he's psychotic, he's bipolar. And they were giving him all these medicines to treat that and it was like no, he's autistic. And they were compounding the situation. So we passed a law that said the prison system here in Virginia had to take into account and have a way to screen for developmental disabilities, and they have. Since that time in 2020, we've introduced legislation every single year to chip away to try and get developmental disabilities and autism taken into account in the criminal justice system.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's really good work. I've been doing this podcast for about a year and a half. I didn't even realize the situation was a situation. I spoke with a judge. He was just 17 years old. He told me the same story that you just said. He went into a prison situation where an autistic person was given medications. It actually made the situation worse. Yeah, that was over 40 years ago, maybe even 50. So how have we not figured out how we can help these people that end up in the prison system so they can be treated, hopefully to have a much better outcome for everyone involved?

Speaker 2:

Well, that's one of the things that we're trying to do with our organization is awareness. We are trying to educate the public, like we are here on the podcast. I speak quite a bit on TV and radio and articles, and all of our co-founders do the same. So it's educating people. It's educating law enforcement. We just passed a law here in Virginia last year through the Autism Society that says law enforcement must go through autism-specific training and not only once in the academy but ongoing autism training, because they get into these situations when they're first responders. So it's educating law enforcement, educating police and then educating the judicial process, so educating the judges, the prosecutors and defense attorneys. So part of one of the laws that we introduced said that if you are a public defender and you are going to defend somebody with autism, you must have, within the past two years, a minimum of four hours training on autism, Because how can you defend somebody if you don't really understand anything about their medical condition?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I think that's very important. Understanding is the key for everything. This podcast is about understanding and trying to get the stories like you're telling now to the people that need to hear it. You've accomplished a lot in Virginia. What's the next step to get it to a national basis for everyone? This is happening across the country and, of course, around the world. How do we get this from a local scenario to a national scenario?

Speaker 2:

I started it here in Virginia because obviously I live here and I live 20 minutes from our capital, so I was able to go down there and I'm able to go down there regularly and talk to legislators. We have grown, as I mentioned, our families are from every. I have them from all 50 states and I have some people from Canada and I've even had people from UK. So it's educating our families to be the advocates and to push these issues. So we have families that are speaking to their senators and their delegates. We have reached out to the US Congress. I've spoken to over 60 House of Representatives and senators about the issue. As we all know, getting things done in Washington has been very challenging and I spent a lot of effort on that and I haven't seen a whole lot move in the past oh, six years since I've been trying that and we just did another round about six months ago of redoing this again. So what I decided was the best way to get change is locally. I started here with Virginia and I am trying to use Virginia as a model for legislation. And then I reach out to parents and parents say you know, what can I do? What can I do? And I walk them through the process and I said call your local representative, I'll help you through the process. I'll tell you what to say. I'll even be on the phone call A lot of times. I'm on Zoom calls. I'll help you through the process. I'll tell you what to say. I'll even be on the phone call A lot of times. I'm on Zoom calls.

Speaker 2:

I just was on a Zoom call with a Maryland legislator and the Autism Society of Maryland and we were working on legislation similar here. So what we want to do is try and roll the legislation that we know that has been working here and roll this out state by state legislation that we know that has been working here and roll this out state by state and sort of like you know the medical care that we have now. I think it started in Massachusetts and it started rolling out state by state and the US government said well geez, all these states are doing it, why don't we roll this out nationally? So it's kind of the same theory of what we're trying to do is roll this out state by state and then push at the same time at the national level to say this is a big deal.

Speaker 2:

And we're seeing this as a really growing issue because what has happened in our systems is we have some of the supports in place for autistic children in schools. Some are great, some are not so great, but at least there's some there. When they graduate from high school they basically as we always say as parents they fall off the cliff. All of those supports and interactions and things that are trying to help them are no longer there, and this is where A lot of our kids get in trouble. I mean, they're living in the parents' basement. They don't have any friends except people on the computer friends. So we're trying to educate families how to get appropriate training and education and have laws that help support if they do get in this trouble.

Speaker 1:

When you have a family, they just find out their son or daughter might have legal issues. It's kind of like when they first found that their son or daughter was autistic. It's the big unknown and it's very, very scary. What do you do to help take away that fear they might have? After all, it is the legal system. It can be very scary. What's the first steps that you do to guide them through that process so they can better understand what needs to happen? After all, it is a legal system. A lot of stress accompanies it and it can be very, very intimidating to them.

Speaker 2:

I mean that's a really great point. If you've never been into the criminal justice system, you have no idea what it is and what you see on TV and what is reality it is they're not even close. It's not even close. Most of us have never seen it inside of a courtroom other than for, like, a speeding ticket or a parking ticket. Right, and you go before the judge and say yes and pay your fine, goodbye. But once you get in the criminal legal system, it is a nightmare, I tell parents. It starts to snowball and can get worse and worse as you go.

Speaker 2:

So first of all, I learn about their case, I listen to them, which is important because they have somebody to talk to and they can talk to me or one of our other co-founders because we've lived it and we know what they're going through. That's very key for a lot of parents is you know what I'm talking about. In fact, a lot of times I'll talk to parents. They'll start telling me I go, stop right there. I can complete all of your sentences because I know it and I've heard it over. You know thousands of times it's the same situation.

Speaker 2:

And then what I do is I help them where they are in the process on getting resources and I actually have a list. Okay, first thing you're going to do is this. Second thing you're going to do is this. Third thing you're going to do is this here's what's going to happen. You're going to go through this part and this is where certain things will happen and here's where you'll go through this part. I talk them through so that they understand. They have my cell number, they call me. Sometimes I say I talk to some of the parents off the ledge and it's good that you can have somebody that you can reach out and talk to, that has been through it, because it is such an unknown, unknown going forward and that is even more petrifying than even if you do know.

Speaker 1:

You brought up. Many parents do not tell their family that their son or daughter is in the legal system. They may be very embarrassed by it. I could be wrong. It might go well past just being embarrassed. Their son or daughter is caught up in the legal system. Now the prosecutor is trying to paint a picture that their son or daughter is this horrible person which they know is not true. That can be so overwhelming and mentally challenging for the parent as well. How do you help them get past the emotional part of their trial in order to get them to be more objective about what's going on? That's a very hard thing to do.

Speaker 2:

Well, I mean, that's another great point is the prosecutor is in for a win and a lot of people think that criminal justice is fair and just, and it's not. I mean, that's just the reality. I'm not making a statement, it's just an observation of reality. It's all about the win and it's all about the prosecutor winning at any cost, and we've heard stories of where things have been manipulated or things have not been true. A lot of times the prosecutors I tell people it's like a card game. They have all the cards and they will keep throwing aces at you and they'll come up with 52 million charges and some of those charges may not even be relevant, but you're so scared that you're going to be put away for life that you're willing to make a plea bargain and you think this is the best thing that you can do, and sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's not. People don't understand what the consequences are, that what happens if you do get a felony on your record. So we talk to people and they talk to us and we explain that situation and we try and give them resources to level the playing field. So we have lots of resources. That specifically explains I mean there's a lot of atypical things that happen that we can say because of this in their autism, you will see this. Because of this in their autism, you will see this. So one of the things is in autistics not everyone, but one of a common characteristic is they can be easily manipulated.

Speaker 2:

We've had a case where a person was arrested for robbery and he wanted to fit in with these people that were somewhat being nice and they said, look, just stay right here with the car, we're going to be back in 15 minutes, just stay here. And then we need you to give us a ride because we don't have our car. And the person doesn't. He doesn't realize he's driving the getaway car for a bank robbery, right, and he gets thrown in with the rest of them. He was just trying to fit in. And that's one situation. And we've had some even more extreme where we've had some cases.

Speaker 2:

We just had a psychologist speak to us about where these terrorist groups will recruit people with autism on the internet. They're not doing a face-to-face, they're talking through, you know, chat rooms or whatever, and these people are being nice to them. They may even give them a t-shirt and a hat, so they feel like they belong and they're building them up and saying oh, you're doing such great work for us and you know you need to go do this. And they go, okay, because if you don't, you're really going to hurt my feelings and you know you're supporting all these people by doing it. And they're easily manipulated into doing that. Once they realize like, oh no, this is really bad, this is what's going on, they went. Oh my, I didn't understand that. I thought they were just being nice to me.

Speaker 1:

So there's a huge difference between a civil, local and federal court system. Yes, it can be very, very intense in federal court. Yes, add to that, it can be very, very intense in federal court. Yes, add to that it can be very, very costly. How does the average person that's just barely getting by struggling to take care of their kids, how do these people get to a place where they can be on a level playing field with a prosecutor, with all the things that can add to the financial burden of defending their child?

Speaker 2:

Even for people who can't afford it when I say can't afford it, most of us like mortgaging our house, getting out a second mortgage in our house or selling our cars or giving up all of our savings. You have to get psychological evaluations and what we're able to do is we're able to give the research that has been done and we educate them. So we have research and we have papers from various organizations that says give this to the prosecutor, reach out to, and we have a couple of lawyers that will help public defenders understand that. And one of the things we have with that is a lot of times public defenders don't have time to look at that. And I tell parents the most important thing Even if you got the most, expensive, best lawyer in the world, nobody knows your son better than you do. You need to educate yourself and here's the information that you need to educate yourself with and I give that to them. I have those resources. And I said you need to be as fluent as this as I am and relate it, those specific parts that apply to your son, so that you explain it.

Speaker 2:

We even have them do a chronological list of what has happened in their life. Okay, remember when they were six and they were bullied. Or remember when they were 18 and somebody said, hey, give me some cash and you'll be my friend, all those nuances. Write those down to show people this didn't happen yesterday. This has been going on from childhood. When you look at my son's case and even was brought up in the case is the doctor said oh no, this happened. You could see this. The month prior to my wife giving pregnancy, there was shown that there was something wrong that happened during the pregnancy and nobody knows whether it's a pregnancy or whether it's hereditary. There's still a lot of research. But no, but all of these things and you show here's a pattern of what has been going on throughout their life and we've tried to get resources and this is similar to that pattern so that you can show this is part of their developmental disabilities. This is part of their brain that developed differently than a neurotypical and does not understand that.

Speaker 1:

This has been a great conversation, a lot of really, really good information. What do you feel that's important in closing, to tell our listeners on what they need to know, on what you do?

Speaker 2:

First of all, I want to say we're out there to help you. We are just a bunch of parents that have been through this and we do not want this to happen to others, so reach out to us at Decriminalized Developmental Disabilities. We'll look that up just like that on Google or you can just look up DTHREEorg. That's number one. If you get in those situations, you need to get in front of it as soon as you think it may even happen. The other thing is you need to educate your children about these situations. If they get themselves in situations, do not ever talk to law enforcement without a lawyer. That gets you in trouble.

Speaker 2:

And number three is that you can change our systems. It takes one person and I tell families everybody goes, somebody has to do something about this, somebody has. That somebody is you and you one person. Yes, you can make a change and we will help you with that if you're interested in doing that. But it starts with the families and it starts with us making that change for people to understand there are these people with developmental disabilities that are different from you and I, and helping them understand that society around them is so critical so they too can thrive and not end up in a criminal justice system and their lives destroyed forever.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's really great advice. I really appreciate you coming on. Great conversation, great information. Thank you, tony, appreciate it. The pleasure is all mine. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me the world, about why Not Me the World, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world. ©. Transcript Emily Beynon.