Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World

John Puls : Autism, Justice, and Understanding: Navigating the Criminal System

• Tony Mantor

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John Puls, a psychotherapist specializing in forensic work, shares critical insights on navigating the intersection of autism, mental health, and the criminal justice system. 

He draws on his extensive experience working with individuals in crisis to offer practical guidance for families and caregivers.

• Working as a psychotherapist with both autistic individuals and those with severe mental health issues
• Providing forensic services including testifying for involuntary commitment cases and mitigation for reduced sentencing
• Crisis Intervention Trained (CIT) officers and Service Population Advocates as promising but limited resources
• Finding qualified legal representation that understands autism and mental health issues
• Advocating with prosecutors and judges to focus on treatment rather than punishment
• Writing personalized letters to judges explaining family support and treatment plans
• Seeking local mobile crisis teams instead of calling law enforcement when possible
• Connecting with support groups to learn from other families' experiences navigating the system
• Properly communicating needs to first responders to avoid unnecessary arrests

If you know anyone who would like to tell their story, send them to TonyMantor.com. Tell everyone everywhere about Why Not Me? The World, the conversations we're having, and the inspiration our guests give to show that you are not alone in this world.


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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)

Speaker 1:

Welcome to why Not Me? The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, Broadcasting from Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me? The World Humanity Over Handcuffs the Silent Crisis special event. Joining us today is John Poles, a psychotherapist who is a licensed clinical social worker and a master certified addiction professional. He'll be sharing his journey of how he helps others in need. It's a pleasure to have him here today. Thanks for coming on, Of course. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure If you would give us a little insight on what you do, Sure, sure.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. I'm a I do a few different things. I'm a psychotherapist by trade, right, so I'm a licensed clinical social worker and a master certified addiction professional. I really started working in the field, I would say, in about 2013, originally as like a support staff or what we would call like a behavioral health technician and inpatient units, and then I went back to school. One of my first jobs was my undergraduate was actually at South County Mental Health Center, which is a crisis stabilization unit.

Speaker 2:

So I worked with folks with really severe and persistent mental health issues, either psychotic disorders, having active suicidal or homicidal thoughts and gestures and then so I started working with people in crisis, basically, and a lot of families in crisis. From that point, I worked in a residential tool diagnosis unit for addiction and mental health and I was again working with a lot of families and people in crisis, and both times I saw a really fractured system, both in the community mental health standpoint, which was nonprofit, state funded, and then then, even in what would be considered a nicer kind of for-profit addiction treatment facility, was still fraught with so many issues. And then I eventually went into private practice and so now predominantly what I do is I work with people with more severe mental health issues, some of which are autistic, and then I also consult with families in terms of trying to help them find placements and things like that. And then I have a small portion of my practice is actually doing forensic work as well with the legal system.

Speaker 1:

Okay, let's expand a little bit on your forensic work. When people hear the word forensic, I'm sure they have different ideas of what it could be. It's probably quite different from what they think it is to what it actually is. Could you expand on that?

Speaker 2:

First I'll start with saying that I think the assumption is that social workers or clinical social workers don't do forensic work and it's reserved for psychiatrists and psychologists. But I was pleased to know that's not the case For me. What it looks like is that I testify and do assessments for people meeting criteria for different types of involuntary commitment. So that could be under people being sectioned, or in Florida it's called like a Baker Act. And then also we have a unique law in Florida called the Marchman Act, which is actually involuntary treatment for substance use disorder, which is often co-occurring a lot of mental health issues.

Speaker 2:

And then I also do what's called mitigation work. Basically, if somebody is convicted of some type of crime, becomes involved in the criminal justice system, I can come in and do an assessment and testify and advocate for reduced sentencing based on this person's mental health, their trauma history, what they've gone through as a kid, their socioeconomic status the list goes on contributing factors that lead people to wind up in the criminal justice system. The last part of it that I do as well is as I'm sure many families have experienced that have loved ones with mental illness and is that they wind up in inpatient units, subsequently receive subpar care and monitoring. So I'll come in and testify to standard of care for wrongful death cases involving mental health facilities and addiction treatment facilities.

Speaker 1:

I'm intrigued about the legal side of it. Most people that I know who do not have autism or mental health in their family. They just don't understand it. They don't know how the autistic brain works. They also don't understand it. They don't know how the autistic brain works. They also don't understand how those with mental illness, how their brains work either. They don't realize that many autistic people look at things in a different view than they do, so when they wind up on the wrong side of the law. It's my understanding that many of those in the legal system have the same challenges. They don't understand autistic people or those with mental health. So my question is how do you address that?

Speaker 2:

So not easy, Although a lot of people don't understand it. What I found and not to be too cynical, but what I found as far as the related criminal justice system, various proceedings is that not only do they not understand it, they're not really making an attempt to understand it. Part of what my role is in either mitigation work or working with people that have been involved in the criminal justice system, is really psychoeducation, like explaining that this is what this person was experiencing at the time. I'll give you a very quick example. This was several years ago.

Speaker 2:

My family wouldn't mind me bringing this up, but I had a patient that was in a mental health facility that was diagnosed with I believe it was schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, and they were given the wrong medication, which is known to cause agitation, to treat it and they punched a staff member, which subsequently led to their arrest and going to the county jail, where they received no treatment of course, and going to the county jail, where they received no treatment of course, and through a lot of tired advocacy from both their guardian and myself, we were able to transfer to the proper program.

Speaker 2:

But I think all the criminal justice would see is hey, this person assaulted someone. This person is a danger to the community and they need to be withheld, but when, in reality, they're just not being properly treated and there's a lack of understanding, and certainly once you're to the point of being involved in the criminal justice system and you're incarcerated, either in jail or prison. Some places are doing it a little better in terms of providing mental health care, but the care that they receive is completely inadequate, very inadequate.

Speaker 1:

So this goes deeper than just the legal system, because the first responders that are the ones that see them out in the streets. I've had the pleasure of talking with several different people that work between the autistic community and the first responders. A lot of people will throw darts at the police, putting the blame on them, when they don't realize they've only got seconds sometimes to make a decision whether a person is going to be trying to hurt themselves or trying to hurt someone else. How do we change that so that the first response, hopefully, is the last response and it doesn't wind up going past that?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely no. That's a great point, and I think that law enforcement officers are often an easy target. Oh well, the law enforcement did this, police did this, and they are in very difficult situations and they have seconds to act. I guess what I would respond to that, as far as what we can do, is look at some of what's already being done that I believe is effective, but it's done on a very small scale and it's kind of fractured and it's not widely adapted.

Speaker 2:

In Palm Beach County, for example, we have what are called CIT officers, so crisis intervention trained officers. They receive specific training on how to address and work with somebody that is in supermental distress or may have autism, in order to properly de-escalate and handle it, and you can actually, in terms of calling 911, you can actually request for a CIT officer to respond. However, there's a limited amount Depending on the situation. They may not be able to send somebody out. We also have something in different areas in South Florida called service population advocates, and so those are actually members of the police department. They're paid by the local municipality police department. They have a badge that says they're a part of the police department, but they're also licensed mental health counselors or licensed clinical social workers and they'll actually respond in lieu of a law enforcement officer.

Speaker 2:

Now that's effective, but it's done on a very small scale. What I would recommend is that there's one thing for a specialized CIT-trained officer to respond. It's a whole other thing to have a fleet of officers that can receive some training at least and have some education, because I have a neighbor who has something as autism and she has a lot of stickers on her car that basically to inform anybody that could be approaching the car police or whatever that there is somebody with autism that's in the car and they may not respond appropriately. They may make certain gestures that seem threatening but aren't right. Just some basic training like that, I think would be really helpful for law enforcement.

Speaker 1:

Let's take it to the next step now. Let's say the first responders show up. Unfortunately, it gets out of control. Now they're faced with the legal system. Depending on the situation, that can be a very huge cost. Not only are they faced with an overwhelming situation now they're faced with who do we call? Who will understand that their son or daughter is autistic? How do they go about finding someone that knows something about autism and can help them through this most terrifying situation that they're in?

Speaker 2:

Listen, it's really difficult.

Speaker 2:

I happen to know a few just because of the space that I'm in, but if I have a kid who has autism or some other type of severe mental health issue and wants to be in the criminal justice system, I may panic and just Google defense attorneys and just start calling and then, before you know it, I'm sending a $5,000 retainer and I'm hoping for the best, and that person may not have any understanding of it or certain folks won't be able to do that, and then they're left to the public defender, and what I see often happen in that case is that the person ends up sitting in jail for a considerably long period of time because they're not able to be bonded out, and it's very cumbersome and time consuming to get a mitigation specialist to come in and and advocate for reduced sentencing if that's needed.

Speaker 2:

So it's very difficult, but I think, even though there's the imminent crisis, what I always try and tell families is to say listen, you know, yes, your loved one is in jail. This is terrible, but let's, let's find some appropriate attorneys and legal representation. Grill them a little bit, ask them have you worked with clients who had autism before? Have you worked with clients that had severe and persistent mental health issues that contributed to it. What is your experience? How many cases have you handled with that? And so often families are just like anxious, nervous and just want to get it taken care of right away. But what I recommend is really asking those types of questions to make sure that you have somebody that's qualified for it and it's not just the first person you find on Google.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a good point. Now my next comment and feel free to tell me if you think that I'm wrong in this you're standing in front of that judge. It's tremendously overwhelming. You only have a certain amount of time to make a presentation to the judge and get a lawyer. Just like when the parents first found out that their child was autistic, it was the big unknown. Now they're standing in front of a judge. It's an even bigger unknown. A lawyer is definitely crucial at that point in time. So how does that get put in place?

Speaker 2:

So I think what you're referring to is the timeframe with first appearance, when somebody has their first appearance. It is very quick, depending on the time of day that you get arrested. It could be hours If you're arrested very late at night, or even in the middle of the night. You could be at first appearance first thing that morning.

Speaker 2:

And in cases where there's no time and again I want to be careful that this is going to be county specific and even state specific, but what I recommend is, as opposed to rushing to hike because again that's a lot of money, right, families often don't have unlimited resources I usually just recommend, if there's not any time to find private counsel, let them have their first appearance with the county public defender Worst case scenario. You can later retain private counsel. And again, I want to be careful because I can tell you that's the best strategy in Palm Beach County, florida, but that may not be elsewhere. But you're right, it's often an impossible situation and families are panicked, they're anxious, their brain is in overdrive and they're trying to help their kid. So it's a really difficult situation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is my next step. I think I want to go to the end and then we'll work our way back. They go through this whole process. They wind up incarcerated. Now we have another whole different level of people that truly do not understand the autistic world, or those with mental illness. So for a perfect example would be an autistic person goes into sensory overload. The guards unfortunately just do not understand what they're going through. How do we help those that work in the prisons so that something like this wouldn't happen?

Speaker 2:

Listen, we think that our local law enforcement has a difficult time understanding it when we get into the point of the corrections officers within the county jail. Again, this would be the more cynical part of me. But they don't understand it. They really don't have a desire to understand. They're just trying to knock out their shift and have it be as least chaotic as possible.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, now you have somebody who you know may have autism, may have severe mental illness, and their behavior in the jail because now it's exacerbated they're increasingly stressed out, they're agitated and they may end up getting additional charges just from being in jail, depending on how they act. And so what I usually recommend to families is that, again, mothers and fathers of people with autism and other mental health issues are the fiercest advocates I've ever seen. They've moved mountains in terms of policy change. What I always tell them is advocate Paul, try to inform them about medication Sometimes the Tannin County Jail they'll have mental health units that they can be transferred to and also get a qualified attorney in there as soon as possible and, after you found an appropriate one to try and like mitigate it.

Speaker 2:

And the hard part is too is and what I've seen so many families struggle with and I don't know if you've heard this is that sometimes families are concerned about bonding their loved one out because they're not sure they can properly manage the situation and they're concerned about them potentially committing even though they're not doing it intentionally most of the time, but committing more crimes after they're actually released and I just had that from the other day. So it's so hard and depending on the situation, but basically what I usually tell them is fiercely advocate for your loved one and go to the jail in person. Get the right attorney there to try and educate them on what's going on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's great advice. Now let's go to the prosecutor. They're the ones that are trying to put them in jail. How do we get across to them? Because many of them do not understand autism or mental illness. They're out to get a win Not all of them but they just don't understand it. If you don't get someone that has a little empathy on that side of it, it is a very tough battle. A little empathy on that side of it, it is a very tough battle. How do we win there? We need to get a point across to them that is not all people belong in prison. How would you address that?

Speaker 2:

And this is another circumstance where it's so state-specific. I was talking to a family member and a subsequent social worker from California and this person had some severe mental health issues and was convicted of some crimes as a result of it. They had a social worker that was charged in managing and placing them in mental health care. That was part of the sentence, right? But I couldn't believe it. I'm like I was like, oh yeah, like we do this all the time in California, this is part of the deal and I was like, wow, I wonder what it would be like if that was able to be replicated. So they actually had a mental health professional advocating for the person to receive proper treatment and care and educating the legal system. There was a full time staff member.

Speaker 2:

They had multiple of them depending on the county, but absent from that, that is certainly not the norm. It's not the norm in Florida and I'm sure it's not the norm in most states. What that looks like is, I'll back up and say, most prosecutors while of course they're punishment and jail time-minded, they ultimately want the cases off of their list, they want them settled, they want the pleas done. They certainly don't want to go to trial in any meaningful way. Again, this goes back to seriously advocating, you know, for your loved one, educating them, making sure that your loved one is under the care of some appropriate mental health professionals that can write letters, provide reports, write something to indicate, hey, this was related to having autism, this was related to a mental health disorder or a co-occurring substance use disorder. This is what we're doing to receive proper treatment and trying to negotiate a plea from there, which, of course, would involve again having a good attorney.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's very true. We've covered a lot of great things here. The last one, I think, is the judges. There are a few out there that are trying to make some changes. There's a lot that aren't. Sometimes the prosecutor, the defense attorney, will come up with something. The judge will say, no, that's too lenient, that's too harsh. How do we get them to be more empathetic and understanding of what autism and those with mental illness need, so that we don't overload our prison system? Because I've heard many times, prison system is not a hospital.

Speaker 2:

First thing I'll mention is that and again, most counties actually do have the ability the county will actually pay a mitigation specialist. Okay, families typically don't have to come out of pocket, but I think it's an underutilized resource that a lot of people don't even know that exists. They can try and like mitigate the sentencing and explain to the judge why this happened. I think is valuable In general and this is from speaking with a lot of judges and working a lot of cases one of the number one protective factors that judges look at in terms of, okay, if this person is released on probation, what is the likelihood that they're going to re-offend, as they would use it in legal terms? One of the largest protective factors against that is family support, and that's it. It's family support. Those without it are exponentially more likely to end up back in the criminal justice system. It's not to say that.

Speaker 2:

Obviously, of course, it can happen even if they have family support, but it's important that the judge knows that family support is there and so that can come from. Writing a personalized letter to a judge is what I often recommend that families do explaining your history, explaining your ability and your availability and your willingness to support your loved one what type of ancillary care and support you can provide, whether that be like a psychiatrist, whomever really intimating strongly to that judge. Judge, I'm going to try to take care of my loved ones to the best of my ability. I have the availability, the desire, the willingness to do it and while simultaneously hopefully having somebody that can educate them on it. And you're right, it's where legal system works right. Judges have very far-reaching authority and sometimes it's the luck of the draw of who ends up taking your case.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so. In closing, what would you like to tell the listeners that you think is very important that they need to hear about what you do and what we've been talking about?

Speaker 2:

incarcerated or arrested Because, unfortunately, because of the way that our healthcare system is, that's what frequently happens. I think that a lot of families I speak to and I've done presentations for NAMI and related organizations when their loved one is having a crisis, they're panicked and they assume law enforcement will come help them and take them to the hospital. What I always tell them is you don't get it unless you ask. And just because spoken to the 911 operator doesn't mean that's necessarily going to be translated to the responding officer. What I recommend is that, if you can step outside, speak to the officer first, explain that the person either needs to be hospitalized or whatever it may be to try and avoid an arrest.

Speaker 2:

And the other thing and I meant to bring this up earlier too is, even before calling law enforcement assuming it's not an acute crisis check and see if your county has a local crisis team like a mobile crisis team is what we call it in Palm Beach County where they'll actually have like a social worker or a therapist come out and respond. Every county and state is specific. So, if your loved one is having these issues, find some local support groups local autism support groups, caregiver support groups, nami support groups so that those families and those parents can tell you specifically how they navigated it. I always say this all the time, even though I'm a quote-unquote expert witness the real experts are the family members in terms of navigating the legal system with their loved ones, because they've experienced this. So get connected with other family members who have been through the same thing in different caregiver support groups.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's a tough situation for those involved. Many times, people like you and I are talking about it. We can say, well, we'll do this, we'll do this, this is what you need to do when you're actually thrown into that situation. It is truly just overwhelming, not only for the person that's going through it, all the people that went through it with them the family, the lawyers, the judges, even the first responders that were there from the very beginning. It's just a tough situation for everyone.

Speaker 2:

It really is, and I think that's another reason why, if you do have that support of another family member or other family members in a local support group, that can make a world of a difference, because when you're in the crisis, your adrenaline's pumping, you're having a hard time making decisions. If you can have a grounding force and somebody that's been through this before can help you navigate it, it really makes a world of a difference.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense. Well, this has been great Great conversation, great information. I'm sure we missed a few things. We covered a lot of important topics. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 1:

It's been my pleasure. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom Contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.