Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World

Judge David Fleisher: When Judges Choose Compassion Over Punishment?

• Tony Mantor

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Judge David Fleischer, who presides over Harris County Criminal Court in Houston, Texas, shares his groundbreaking approaches to criminal justice reform with a focus on mental health and autism awareness.

• Reforming the bail system to prevent wealth-based discrimination in courts
• Dropping conviction rates from 60% to 25% through bail reform implementation
• Creating court environments where defendants with mental health issues receive compassion and understanding
• Livestreaming court proceedings to increase transparency and public education
• Showing patience when working with defendants who have autism or mental health challenges
• Treating every defendant as a whole person deserving of both accountability and support
• Balancing public safety concerns with the need for rehabilitation and intervention
• Understanding how untreated mental health issues often lead to criminal behavior
• Providing resources to help defendants address underlying issues rather than just punishing them
• Demonstrating how transparency in courtrooms creates positive ripple effects throughout communities

Tell everyone everywhere about Why Not Me? The World, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.


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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)

Speaker 1:

Welcome to why Not Me? The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Their stories Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me? The World Humanity Over Handcuffs the Silent Crisis special event. Joining us today is the Honorable Judge David Fleischer, who currently presides over Harris County Criminal Court no 5 in Houston, texas. His focus is on reforming the court and ensuring all defenders receive fair and equal treatment. We are honored to have him join us today. Thanks for coming on, and can you tell us a little bit about what you do?

Speaker 2:

I'm happy to be here, you know, anytime we can spread awareness, I think it's a great thing. The business that I'm in. It goes hand in hand with mental health, the struggles to get a grip of mental health, because I think it really a lot of behavior can potentially and unfortunately turn criminal if mental health goes unchecked. And I don't know how many people realize that. I think it's very difficult to realize. You know, hey, I'm bipolar. I would imagine that a lot of people don't see it, they don't recognize it and it takes something catastrophic for them to finally realize hey, I might really need to talk to someone, I might really need medication, and sometimes it's too late. What we do here is we really and what I'm doing is really trying to get to the heart of the issue, to figure out what's going on with everyone and to help them. And you know we want everybody to leave better than they came.

Speaker 1:

So, as a judge, you have two different points of view. Of course you've got the prosecutor that's trying to get his point across. Then you have the defense attorney that's trying to get his point of view across. One tries to paint it as the worst thing in the world, the other tries to paint a picture that is not as bad as it looks. So, being the judge, you have to commit at some point to making a decision. What goes into your process after everything is said and done, to making that decision so that it can be, hopefully, good for everyone.

Speaker 1:

Common sense right, yeah, that sounds good.

Speaker 2:

Let me get a couple things, bring a couple things to the forefront here that I think it's important that not a lot of people realize.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Number one. I'm a judge of one of the misdemeanor courts here in Harris County, which is Houston. In our court we only deal with misdemeanors class A and class B, where they're punishable by up to six months in jail and or a year in jail. I have 16 of my brethren, so there's 16 of us here in Harris County. You have to realize that Houston is a humongous city. From one part to the other it takes three hours, right, it's absolutely just enormous. So there's a lot of people here. What? 3 million, 4 million people? So there's a lot of things going on at all times.

Speaker 2:

One of the biggest things that we do is probable cause. So initially, someone gets arrested, they have their first court date. That's when we a lot of times we'll is probable cause. So initially someone gets arrested, they have their first court date. That's when we a lot of times will do probable cause, where we determine if there's enough to go forward. We as judges, we call balls and strikes. To be fair, you don't lean to one side, you don't lean to the other side. We are given a set of circumstances, we look at what the law is and we go forward from there. In our experience here we've had great adas. They're not out for blood. It's not like that now. Sometimes it may seem like that, but understand they're advocating their position and reasonable minds can differ. You know how a defense lawyer may see something it it may not necessarily as someone else see something, and so that's why we, kind of like horse blinders, take a middle-of-the-road approach, the common sense result and look whether there's probable cause to go forward or not. Sometimes there is, sometimes there's not. But one of the most important factors at play here that I don't know if you guys know about it, but we, along with our brethren here in 2018, really changed the landscape of criminal justice because of bail reform.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you're familiar with bail reform, but what that is is that back in the old days, and how it's been since the beginning of time, if you got arrested, you went to jail, and the only way you got out of jail is if you bonded out. Not everybody has that kind of money. So in 16, a lady filed a lawsuit, a federal lawsuit because, hey, man, it's not fair. What's going on? So what happened was a lady gets arrested for a suspended license case, she ends up going to jail. Her bond gets set if I remember correctly $2,500, which is you would pay 10% traditionally, which is $250. You get out and you go fight the case.

Speaker 2:

Not everybody has that kind of money. So what they would do is they would sit in jail, they would plead guilty and they would sit there just to get out. They would plead guilty Whether you know you're innocent or not. Even if you can't make that, they charge you with an assault or DWI or whatever it may be. Who's going to sit there in their right mind for four months waiting for evidence to come in? No one's going to do that. It's easier to plead guilty and get out. Who cares about the consequences?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a tough situation, so how did you get that changed?

Speaker 2:

So when we got elected me and my brother in an 18, you know the judges before us fought bail reform. I don't know why. Maybe it's the fact that you know, you're used to a system in place, you know, and people fear change, but I don't know. But when we came in, we said, hey, we agree with bail reform. Bail reform is good from a misdemeanor standpoint I don't know about felonies, but misdemeanor because the idea is, when you're in jail, it affects this, it affects this. I don't know if you've ever been to jail and I don't want you to say yes or no, but it is such an awful place. It can play with your mind, it can play with your psyche. It can make you develop anxiety, mental health problems and you lose your house, your apartment, cars.

Speaker 2:

Now what we've done is we've completely just turned around a system that's been in place for 150 years on its head. Now, when you get arrested for nonviolent offenses and of course there's exceptions to the rule, but by and large a lot of people are given a personal recognizance bond, a PR bond, to get out to fight the case. The idea is is that it shouldn't be a wealth-based criminal justice system, how it's been. What you have now are people being able to be on the outside fighting their case so they don't have to plead guilty to get out. The conviction rate has dropped from a 60% I mean to mind this a 60% conviction rate in 2016 now to around a 25, 23 to 25% conviction rate. That's staggering.

Speaker 1:

Yes, that's pretty amazing.

Speaker 2:

It helps people in everyday life, from not losing their jobs, their mental health, keeping families, rise, possessions, and so now we see a lot of people coming back with other issues at play and they would prefer to live on the street than me finding you housing. It's really staggering. So that's now the mission. We've done a 180 with regard to bail reform. Now that we've instituted this program, what's next? Next on the list is mental health, getting down to how we help every single person that comes through the criminal justice system, and that's where we are now. I think it's difficult, because one more point is what makes it so difficult is I want to help you, but you don't want to help me helping you. How do we go forward?

Speaker 1:

So true, there's definitely a staggering amount of people that get caught up in the legal system. One of the things that I hear very consistently is that if you haven't been in a court, you just don't realize how overwhelming it can be. That comes from people that, quote live the normal life. Now you add autism or any other mental health situation that can affect how they act or react, it can turn something that's just stressful into something that's insurmountable. So how do we help those people that really need the help?

Speaker 2:

You know, I think one of the major other issues that we have is we were really limited with the resources that we have as well to be able to help. Many times it's addiction issues, many times it's just not getting the proper medication, and when you do that, it really helps. My philosophy is you know, I have four kids at home, right, and then I have another 2,000 at work. Every person that comes through I treat like they're my own child. You know, if you do well, you know we hug you, we congratulate you. Hey, great job, because positive reinforcement has really such a it's so great. Hey, you mess up, you're going to get it as well. We give everybody the expectation of hey, you know, this is what the expectation is when you come here. If you need help, we will give you help. All you have to do is ask, but unfortunately the problem is sometimes they just won't accept it, no matter how much, and I don't know how to go forward.

Speaker 1:

You've got, let's say you have an autistic person that comes in front of you. They're wired differently in the way they think, the way they process things. Some will come across that they don't have any empathy about things that they've done, when they really do. It's just that they don't understand because to them, if you cut your finger, what's the problem? You cut your finger. So how do we help people like that that don't understand the system they can't really afford? You know they're going to have to go with a public defender, you know which? I'm not saying anything bad about public defenders, but they just sometimes don't have the time to learn about the affliction that that person they're defending might have. And then they've got the ADA that's trying to prosecute. How do we go about helping those people so that we can get more empathy towards the person? That's really not violent, but they just need help.

Speaker 2:

I will tell you I've had quite a number of autistic in my opinion. I never know, because when I'm facing someone in front of me I don't have information that they may be autistic At times. You can tell you know when you're talking to someone. When I have someone that I think is either special needs, needs a little bit more care, what I do is I shower them with even more love. I swear to you I take more time, show a lot more compassion to get them to try to trust me, because that's what I want.

Speaker 2:

I want you to open up to me. I want to see open up to me. I want to see what makes you tick. I want to be able to look into you to see how I can help you, whether it's get you into a sober living facility we have a mental health docket here that we help a lot of people with as well and whether it's getting them into a mental health docket.

Speaker 2:

But what's really sad is that if you look around courts around the country, a lot of people don't see it, because you don't get to really see the inner workings of how a court works, and that's why we do what we do complete and utter transparency, so that you get to see what goes on, because I think it's imperative for the public to get access to see how courts work, how we do what we do and why we do what we do, so that you get a better understanding of what we do, how difficult it may be at some times and how you may be able to help us as well. When we get autistic, when we get persons with either mental health issues, we shower them with love. We shower them with help so that they can open up and accept what we're trying to give. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's all you can do. Now. As a judge, you're always trying to show that you're impartial. Sure, now how do you get it across to the ADA and, of course, the defense that you're showing compassion because they may be autistic or have some other issues, yet you're being fair with the judgment that you give.

Speaker 2:

So when I get someone in front of me, we look at what the initial charge is.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes it may be a criminal trespass, sometimes it may be a criminal mischief, sometimes it may be a DWI, an assault. A lot of times I can tell the person by how they're acting in court, what happened with the case and what kind of bond conditions to put on them. That's how we help by really looking at the person who they are, crafting conditions that specifically help them, and so what we're doing is not only am I helping the defense, but I'm also helping the DAs as well, so that they know we are number one protecting the public, making sure that we put enough conditions if they need conditions, so that they won't commit new offenses, because what we don't want is we don't want you to, while you're on bond, to pick up another case. We don't want you to endanger our public. So I'm not necessarily being fair to one side or to endanger our public, so I'm not necessarily being fair to one side or to the other side. What I'm doing is I'm trying to harmoniously protect the public and also help everybody that's coming through.

Speaker 1:

You're the third judge that I've spoken to. The others have the same philosophy as you. They want to get them through the system. They don't want to see them come back again, because if they get them help from the outside, then chances are they won't come back. I'm sure there are many other judges around the country that feel exactly the same way you do. Unfortunately, for everyone that wants change, there are many out there that want to keep the system status quo. How do we get them to change their outlook so, ultimately, we can get the legal system?

Speaker 2:

It's the person. It's the person, you know. I mean, there's a couple of things at play. I think One is is what happens to a person who sees too much over the course of many, many years? Perhaps they become jaded, they become desensitized. Right, that's what happens when you watch on the TV, the murder, violence you become desensitized. It can happen with judges as well, and that's why you need either you know term limits or that's why you have elections. Right, it's the will of the people. Unfortunately, the problem is is that most people, statistically just don't vote. At the end of the day, the way that you really keep a judge in check is through the election process, because it's the will of the people that should command the vote. Right, it's there, and they're the ones who should be the driving force as to whether a judge is in place or a judge is not in place. If a judge, like you said, has too much meanness, so to speak, it needs to come out. Right, how do you do that? That's a great question, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Now there's an oversight committee on judges, correct Of course? Is there any way that the oversight committee, the judges, the other people that might be involved, could sit in a room and talk it all out?

Speaker 2:

You know, theoretically, what would happen is someone would have to file a complaint.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Right, and that's, you know, just like anything in life. You know, when you have people who are upset, either at a lawyer, at a judge at something, set either at a lawyer at a judge at something, there's always a bar, a state bar, that can either, you know, you file a complaint. That's one way, so to speak, right, but I think ultimately, at the end of the day, an election is just that. You know, here we recently had an election a couple months ago, and a lot of the judges that were here are not here anymore. It was the driving force of the will of the people. So I think that's one of the things that keeps judges in check. But that's a very big problem where, you know, a lot of judges become desensitized and they either take it for granted, they don't see the human or the person that's in front of you, because you can really change someone's life, because judges really have so much power.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's so true. Now, when it comes to elections, does it get to the point where they just get put in?

Speaker 2:

If you have enough name recognition. If I was Elvis and I ran for something you know. But by and large it's usually not like that. There's very, very few, especially on the judiciary, where they become such a name recognition that it's futile to run against them. Most of those are either in Senate or in Congress, not in local judges.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that makes sense. Let's say you're running for a judgeship. You put it out there that you're trying to help people. You're not the hanging judge like they see on TV. So many people, if they don't know autism or special needs or mental health, they'll see something, not understand it and say put them in jail and throw away the key, which is not the right thing to do. They have to understand that in the real world of the legal system it's not like the movies or TV. How do you get that across to them? So hopefully they understand more about what you do.

Speaker 2:

It happens all the time, it really does, and the only way is through education and to somehow get it out there that, hey, this is what's going on, this is the reality of the situation. But far, far too many times a lot of judges get a bad rap when it's certainly just not true, and it's very, very difficult, and a lot of judges get it because of it. It happens all the time. We have certain things we can say. We have certain things we can't say. I can't come back and say something we're not allowed to, you know. So there are certain things we can, we can't.

Speaker 1:

We just have to basically take yeah, that's tough, especially where people don't really understand how the legal system actually works. How do we educate them and get them at least headed in the right direction so they can see how the judicial system works and then follow it and hopefully get a better attitude for it moving forward?

Speaker 2:

That's exactly what we're doing now. My iLivestream is exactly what we're doing now. You get a perspective of exactly what's going on. It's complete transparency. You are looking what happens every single day in our court. You get to see the good, you get to see the bad. It is such an educational tool because all too often we get so many people that are just misunderstood, and that's when we step in and just try to help.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought up live streaming. That brings up a couple of questions when did you start it, why did you start it and how has it changed the perception either positive or negative in what you're doing with it?

Speaker 2:

If you remember, back in times of COVID, there were no courts. There were no basic open courts, because everybody was homebound. Believe it or not, criminality never ended. People continued to get arrested, things continued to happen. So courts have to stay open. They have to continue. We were closed. How do you get? Because it's still an open forum. Courts have to stay open. They have to be an open forum so that anybody has access to it that wants to have access to it.

Speaker 2:

So what we did was we began live streaming. What I did was, and what we all did, what we were required to do, was to use Zoom as an avenue to be able to communicate with the lawyers, and we would live stream the Zoom proceedings so that the entire world could see. You can go to our court now. Go to my webpage, click on the live stream and you can watch, and I've been doing it since we were required to back in 2020. Now, four years later, I continue to do it. It kind of somehow just someone started watching and it just kind of ballooned out of there.

Speaker 2:

The great thing about it is is that it provides number one, transparency. Number two, it's a great educational tool, like I've been saying. However, the bad part is not everybody likes to be on it, right? So they take issue with being thrust into it, and it's the court process. I'm sorry, when you get in trouble, this is what happens. There's consequence to behavior, you have to learn it, and it's the court process. I'm sorry, when you get in trouble, this is what happens. There's consequence to behavior, you have to learn it. Nowadays, anonymity is just gone right In every aspect of life. I would hope that it would possibly be a great deterrent as well, especially for those who, if you're professional and you're out there, think before you act, think before you speak. There is a humongous consequence now.

Speaker 1:

What kind of results have you seen come from this? You started it because you had to. Now you're keeping it going and, of course, there are people out there that love it. There are people out there that hate it.

Speaker 2:

Sure.

Speaker 1:

How have you seen it change, or have you seen it change the dynamic within your courtroom since you started doing this?

Speaker 2:

It doesn't change the dynamic in the courtroom what I've found, and I'll tell you that I get a lot of comments and people that reach out to me that say, hey, thank you for doing what you're doing. Because of you, I have reached out to a long-lost brother. We've had people that have told us that they've stopped harming themselves, they've checked into rehab because they see how other people go through things, they empathize with them, they see what good can come from it, and so they in turn do the same thing. I promise you I can't tell you how many people have reached out to us in such a positive way that it has impacted them, seeking mental health treatment, prevention from suicide, really seeking drug treatment. I mean, I can give you letter after letter, email after email, but of course there's always a negative as well, right To people who don't like it, and there's like there's going to be that with every aspect of life like there's going to be that with every aspect of life.

Speaker 1:

I think it's just great that, because I never thought of it from that angle, that showing this, that other people could use it as a tool to show their son or daughter or relative that hey look, this is what this person's going through, You're doing the same thing and you can't use your ADHD or whatever as an excuse.

Speaker 2:

I've had teachers that have reached out to us that they show it to their classroom. An excuse. I've had teachers that have reached out to us that they show it to their classroom, and so I've had other teachers that say, hey, can you come and speak to our class? So it's from that aspect that I think that it's really just a great resource and an educational tool, because now our young children and our young adults, they don't think before acting. Our young children and our young adults, they don't think before acting. God knows that I was 17 and 18 too, right, but when you see what happens and when you see the consequence, right.

Speaker 1:

Well, this has been great. So, of course, now this podcast is about autism and mental health and all that. What would you like to say regarding your courtroom and the mental health and autism that you think that people listening to would benefit from hearing?

Speaker 2:

one of the biggest problems in life and I think that this can really play in everything is patience. If people had more patience in every aspect of life, we would just be a better overall, better world. Patience whether you are being a judge, you're patients. Whether you are being a judge, you're judging. Whether you are a district attorney, whether you're on probation and dealing with someone. Whether you are talking to someone who has autism and mental health issue and you're trying to get through to them and you're not getting through and you become so agitated that everybody explodes. Just patients has such a agitated that everybody explodes. Just patience has such a virtue.

Speaker 2:

It's a very difficult trait to have to practice and if everybody did and just took a second to reflect, I really think it would help in every aspect of life, especially when we're talking about mental health. It's not hard. I mean, I'm sorry, it's very difficult dealing with, participating and speaking to someone who may have mental health issues or autism. It's not easy and if you don't have patience, it's even going to be more difficult. Not only are you going to be frustrated, but the other person is going to be double frustrated because think about them. They're trying to get to you and they have an issue trying to express themselves. Autism is a very tricky thing but if you have patience and you show compassion and love toward that person, once they start to trust you they'll open up and hopefully you will learn how to deal with the autism and how to best communicate and perhaps help them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. Many people have forgotten the definition of the word patience. This is one analogy that I give quite a bit. Many people have forgotten the definition of the word patience.

Speaker 2:

This is one analogy that I give quite a bit. I was pulled over quite a while ago and I had an officer come up to me extremely arrogant. Just hey, man, why'd you do that? Why did you run that stop sign? I knew I stopped. Okay, maybe I stopped for a second. I didn't stop for three seconds. So I looked at the officer and I said you know, I'm sorry, man, I'm an idiot. So I looked at the officer and I said you know, I'm sorry, man, I'm an idiot. I just truly I'm sorry and I'll do better next time. He let me go.

Speaker 2:

If I would have been aggressive to him, what would have happened? If you practice that in everyday life with mental health, with autism, when they're trying to combat it to you, and you really shower them with love and empathy, I mean, this guy's a limit. So that's what we do in our court and actually in all of our courts here, right, Not just me, our entire brethren, and I think that hopefully we'll make a change, because that's what we try to do, you know just try to make everyone better when they leave.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a great model and hopefully many people around the country catch on to that.

Speaker 2:

I don't know. You know it's one person at a time, one step at a time, and you know I'm not going to be here for long, but I hope that we can touch as many lives as you have with your podcast. I mean, you've done it in hundreds of thousands. Me, I'm just one at a time, but you know that's all it takes.

Speaker 1:

That's right.

Speaker 2:

One at a time, you know that's fantastic.

Speaker 1:

I really appreciate it. Thanks again. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom Contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.