Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Autism is a complex neurodevelopmental condition that affects millions of people worldwide.
It is characterized by difficulties in social interaction, communication, and repetitive behaviors.
Although autism is becoming more widely recognized, there is still a lack of understanding and awareness surrounding the condition.
As a result, many individuals and families affected by autism struggle to find the support and resources they need.
Why Not Me The World podcast aims to bridge that gap by providing valuable information and insights into autism, fostering empathy and understanding, and promoting acceptance and inclusion.
Nashville based Music Producer Tony Mantor explores the remarkable impact his guests make by empowering their voices in spreading awareness about autism and helping break down the barriers of understanding.
Join Mantor and his guests as they delve into the world of autism and mental health to explore topics such as diagnosis, treatment, research, and personal stories.
Together, we can create a more informed and compassionate society for individuals with autism.
Tony Mantor: Why Not Me the World
Joan Lipinski : Battles for Her Autistic Daughter's Freedom
Joan Lipinski shares her deeply personal journey fighting for her daughter with Asperger's syndrome who received a 63-month federal prison sentence after being manipulated into bringing contraband into a facility where she worked.
Through multiple prison transfers, denied medical care following back surgery, and judicial misunderstanding of autism, Joan has become a determined advocate battling against a system that fails to accommodate neurodiversity.
• Joan's daughter was manipulated by an inmate professing love to bring in a package with unknown contents
• Judge acknowledged her autism but wanted to "make an example" of her to other prison workers
• After sentencing, she endured a harrowing four-month journey through five different facilities
• Basic necessities like underwear, socks, and pain medication were withheld for weeks
• Her compassionate release was denied when the judge claimed "her autism was overstated"
• Joan traveled to Washington DC to meet with senators and representatives
• She successfully met with Senator Cruz's staff and personally with Senator Greg Stubbe
• Clemency paperwork has been filed as the next step in seeking her daughter's release
• Other inmates don't understand her daughter's autistic behaviors, putting her at risk
• Joan flies to Texas three times monthly to provide brief respite from the prison environment
If you know anyone who would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantor.com contact, then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. T
ell everyone everywhere about Why Not Me The World, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give.
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intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild
Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI)
Welcome to why Not Me? The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, usa, nashville, tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Their stories Some will make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. Hopefully, you gain more awareness, acceptance and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to why Not Me? The World Humanity Over Handcuffs the Silent Crisis special event. Joining us today is Joan Lipinski, who has graciously agreed to share her deeply personal and inspiring story to navigate the complexities of the legal system on behalf of her daughter, a journey that led her all the way to the halls of power in Washington DC, where she courageously advocated for change. The challenges she faced have been formidable, forging a path marked by resilience and determination. Through it all, she's gained invaluable wisdom and perspective, making her extraordinary voice in this conversation. Truly grateful to have her here with us today. Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's my pleasure Now if you would give us a little update on your daughter and her journey that she faced with the legal system.
Speaker 2:So initially, when she had her sentencing, it was three years after her first arrest that they actually did the sentencing and then, upon sentencing, they actually remanded her on the spot, which is not what was supposed to happen. She was supposed to self-report, but at the end of the sentencing his comments were I would love to have her as my neighbor. I know that she was manipulated into doing this, but I need to make an example of her to other nurses and janitors that work in a prison that you can't do this. So, and what happened in my daughter's case was she was manipulated by inmates where she was working to bring a package in that she had no idea what was in the package, where she would have never taken it in. This one inmate was professing his love for her and totally used her and befriended her and, you know, built her up and told him he would take care of her and she just needed to do this for him.
Speaker 1:So can you explain? Was she in jail for three years before she got the verdict? How did this three-year period come about?
Speaker 2:No, she was at home on probation pre-trial probation for three years till she got sentenced. We were waiting for a sentencing date.
Speaker 1:So it took three years from the time that she was arrested until she finally got the verdict. That took three years to do this.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it was almost exactly three years. It was April 2nd of 2021, and it was April 5th of 2024.
Speaker 1:When the sentencing occurred. I believe you said the judge made a notable remark concerning autism. Can you provide more details about what was said? Additionally, can you elaborate on her journey after the conviction was finalized and the challenges she faced along the way to her final destination?
Speaker 2:So at the sentencing he was like you know, it was stated that you know, people with autism don't do well in prison, you know. And she had just had major back surgery too on top of it and was supposed to let her see her neurosurgeon before she was, you know, taken into prison. But anyway, they didn't let her do that, they took her on the spot, and so the journey was she ended up going to a local jail. She was there for three months, so she was supposed to get medical help and counseling, but they put her in a county jail for three months with no treatment. And then they moved her to a private facility for eight days and there was no medications, food was scarce and they made her sign paperwork that wasn't even hers, but she would have died there if she didn't.
Speaker 2:And then from there they finally sent her to Tallahassee, where she was there for one day, but they took her back brace away at that point and she was not even a little bit healed from her surgery. And then they put her on a journey on a bus and then on two planes and then on another bus, and then she was taken to Oklahoma to a transfer facility and was there for 10 days, and then, finally, she was put on a bus and was taken to her destination, which was Carswell Federal Medical Center, and it's the only female medical prison that we have. So that was where she was supposed to go, but it took four months and five prisons to get there, and it was a very arduous, physically and mentally draining journey.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's an immense physical and emotional toll she endured throughout this ordeal. It's hard to imagine the strength that she had to summon just to get through this, Given her medical needs and challenges she faces. I think you mentioned the possibility of getting a compassionate release.
Speaker 2:So after she got there we were going to file for compassionate release because of the horrible treatment I mean she almost died a couple times and mentally she just was, you know about, out of her mind. So when they filed the compassionate release in the end which took a couple months to do the judge, there was over 500 pages sent with a compassionate release of medical records and requests and what had happened in the previous prisons and she hadn't gotten any medical treatment for her back or her heart or anything. I don't think the judge read any of it and his comment was that her autism, which was Asperger's that was her diagnosis, was Asperger's was overstated at sentencing and all prisoners have medical issues.
Speaker 1:Well, that's sad to hear that the judge dismissed her compassionate relief request. His remark that her Asperger's diagnosis was overstated and that all prisoners have medical issues feels dismissive of her unique struggles, adding insult to an already painful situation. Now, how did you feel witnessing this response from the judge, knowing the extent of your daughter's suffering?
Speaker 2:Well, that was like stabbing me right in the heart. No, the autism is what got her in there. And then no treatment, for medical was what was putting her in so much pain and she's disabled now she can barely walk, she's in constant pain. She's still. It's a year later and we still haven't seen a neurosurgeon or a back doctor of any kind. And she had one day of physical therapy 11 months after her surgery and her neurosurgeon's never seen what he did if everything turned out the way it was supposed to. But in the meantime there has been no counseling of any kind, no medical treatment.
Speaker 2:So that started my journey of well, my journey started back in the county jail, taking her medications away, you know, giving someone who just had major back surgery on a one-inch cot with no pillows, no blankets, you know, sleeping pretty much on metal, which was hard. And then, which still is the case now, or a year later, she's got a thicker mattress and she does have a pillow, but she's had no treatment. So I started being vocal with the health services, people, lieutenants in the prison, fighting for just simple things like underwear and socks. For four weeks she had no underwear and no socks, and it was being a female. It was very, very difficult at the time of the month when you really need that, and I begged and pleaded for underwear and socks and four weeks.
Speaker 1:So who did you go to for the simple things like that?
Speaker 2:I went to the head lieutenant under the warden of the jail and I also went to the health services administrator who was to make sure she was getting the medications she should be getting. And I was making those phone calls at least once a day, sometimes twice a day, and I was just begging and pleading. I drove to the jail and took socks but you're not allowed to give anything. And I argued because I gave them the list of the medications she was on. I said the most important thing she needs right now is Tylenol, because she just had this surgery. They took her off the hardcore drugs for the pain and for five days she had no Tylenol. She had no pain medication of any kind, no treatment, no pain medication, sleeping pretty much on metal, no pillow. I mean she was in agony.
Speaker 1:What was their response when you brought things up that she needed?
Speaker 2:Oh, we'll check on her. We'll check on her. And next thing I know, 10 days later they threw her in solitary. I couldn't find her. I thought she was on her way to federal, you know, because they said she probably wouldn't be there very long. So I'm thinking she's on her way to a federal prison and I happen to have a video scheduled with her because there's no visitation there. But I happen to have a video and I thought I'm going to stay on this video and see what happens.
Speaker 2:She came on the video and was still there and told me they threw her in solitary confinement and she wasn't allowed out, she couldn't make phone calls, she wasn't getting her medications and nobody, and I was on the phone a lot. Then I'm like are you trying to kill her, you know? And they're like well, we don't know why she was put in there. And I said, well, somebody needs to find out what she's doing in there. Because they said she's going out of her mind. You know, it's feces infested, it's cockroach infested. And I said she can't call me. He goes well, there's a phone there. I go yeah, there's a broken phone that an inmate pulled off the wall because they got mad.
Speaker 1:So there's no phone. So what happened after all of that?
Speaker 2:So finally there was no explanation as to why she was put in solitary and that just about made her crazy. And finally psychiatry got involved. Crazy, and finally psychiatry got involved and finally after two months she got some anxiety medicine that helped finally calm her down. So then she started this journey, but with autism these journeys are very difficult and need change. And plus, she had been changed from unit to unit to unit to unit, wasn't allowed outside, never saw daylight, had no exercise for four months when she started this whole journey, and here she's had back surgery. So when they put her in a car she could barely get in the car, and then when they went to put her on a plane, she could hardly get up the steps, shackled and chained, you know, and on heart medicine on top of it.
Speaker 1:So where is she now?
Speaker 2:She is at Federal Medical Center in Carswell and that's, I mean, that's her destination for now. But when she got to Carswell they had no medical records on her and didn't know what she was doing there. So once again, so here I am, I'm calling. This is when I really started calling on senators and people. I'm like I need help. I was working with Walt with Prisonology. I'm like what do we do? I had attorneys. I'm like we've got to get in touch with somebody. She needs help. They don't even know what she's doing there. They put her in camp clothes, put her in medical clothes, put her back in camp clothes, put her in medical clothes, all the while hauling mattresses and stuff. She was fit to be tied and I thought her first day there she was not going to make it through the night.
Speaker 1:Now this whole process we've been talking about is over the last year.
Speaker 2:We're now at a year.
Speaker 1:Okay, and there was three years before that, so how long is her sentence that's remaining?
Speaker 2:63 months, five years and three months.
Speaker 1:So what about the first three years that went by?
Speaker 2:Don't count, they're nothing. No, because she was at home. They don't count for anything.
Speaker 1:So now she's been in there a year. Technically she has four more.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are you doing now?
Speaker 2:So what I'm doing right now is, especially after they denied the compassionate release which everybody, everybody was thinking she should be able to get that with her medical condition, the way she's been treated, the mental aspect of it, you know. And the judge said we want her in a medical facility where she gets care. Well, okay, so four months went by, we had no care, no medical facility. So we thought that would be reason for him to grant the compassionate release, plus the autism. And then, like I said, his statement was well, her autism was overstated and all prisoners have medical issues. Well, not all prisoners have major back surgery, heart conditions and don't get treated for any of it.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:And get moved to five prisons in four months. That's not a normal journey. So, anyways, the more she's there and she keeps in touch with me and I just find out what's going on, and so I'm like I have to do everything I can in my power to try and get her out. So the next step is clemency, and we just filed clemency paperwork.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in trying to get clemency, what are the steps you had to take to get this started?
Speaker 2:So you go online and you pull the form off online.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And you fill it out. But then I was able to get another attorney to help me with clemency. He goes we need to add more to the clemency form. It's an 11-page form.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:It's really her statement of what happened, what's happened in her life, what's going on, what is she participating in, what does she want to do in the future. And then I put a statement with it, and then I had an attorney and he and I believe he's on your podcast, Ed Passon- yes, he's been on Very good episode.
Speaker 1:How did he help you?
Speaker 2:He actually did the clemency form for me and he made it her story. He told her story of going from like high school, you know, through college, and keeping it simple and then what happened, you know, and how she got into this and how this affected her life. I wanted to hand deliver this to Washington was my goal, so that's where that went.
Speaker 1:Okay, so once you did get to clemency papers filled out, was you able to get them to DC?
Speaker 2:Well, right before they got filled out, I heard from the one House of Representatives person that I knew. He said you cannot hand deliver paperwork, it must go through email.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:It has to be. It has to go to that address. That's on the paperwork. You cannot bring it here and we can't hand walk it over, because that was my intention. I wanted to hand walk it over to the Office of Pardon.
Speaker 1:Well, that's unfortunate that you actually couldn't take it over there in person. I always thought hand delivering it sometimes would make a difference.
Speaker 2:I was really let down about that. But we went ahead and filed it online and I made copies of it and I said to myself I'm still going to Washington.
Speaker 1:Good for you. What were your plans?
Speaker 2:I'm going to go and I'm going to carry my papers, I'm going to put them in front of people and I'm going to talk about this issue. I'm going to talk about the inhumanity that they face in the prisons right now. It's understaffing no medications, they're hungry, there's not much food, there's been no commissary. They put people on lockdown. The inhumane treatment is unreal and Michelle, being a nurse by trade, she has to see people who've lost their legs, they've lost limbs. You know they're sick, they faint, they have seizures. She can't help them and she's in a high, she's in a maximum security facility because it's medical. So she's in with white collar crime, she's in with minimum offense, first offenders and she's also in with murderers.
Speaker 1:So your next step was Washington DC. How did it go when you went up there?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I went to Washington last week and I took a whole packet with me. I put an agenda together. I had a meeting with Senator Cruz's office. I went to his office. I couldn't get a personal visit with him but I was able to go to a coffee that he had where his staff was there and I did get to meet him. So I got to sit down with his staff and I had my packet of her clemency paperwork and what's happening and just a brief description of why I was there and I was fighting for her life. I'm fighting for her being now being disabled. I'm fighting for prisoner rights because they don't understand how bad things are in there. We've got no leader right now of the BOP. A lot of the wardens have resigned, the leadership is lacking and the treatment within the facility is just inhumane. So I got to sit down and really have a long talk with his legislative aide and he was like I really appreciate you letting me know this. He said I had no idea.
Speaker 1:So do you think that the time that you spent up there was productive and did you walk away happy with it?
Speaker 2:I think, if you take any message away from this at all, they are involved in so many different things that if you have 10 people that go and talk to the same person about the same issues, that's where you start having an impact. And when you start having more people, like a hundred people or a thousand people that are complaining about the same thing, then you get. You start getting people's ears.
Speaker 1:Right, that makes a tremendous amount of sense. So you got to see Senator Cruz and talk with some of his people. Did you get a chance to see anyone else?
Speaker 2:Well then I went from Senator Cruz's office, I went to Rick Scott's office Senator Rick Scott's office and dropped the packet off there, because I had been in communication with his office. I was not able to get an actual appointment with him, and then I went from there. I went to two other House of Representative offices and then I went to Senator Greg Stubbe's office and I got to sit down with him personally for 15 minutes and his legislative aide, who is responsible for this type of thing.
Speaker 1:That's great to hear. How did everything turn out at the meeting once you arrived?
Speaker 2:That was my best conversation. At that point the clemency was filed but we had no record that it had been received. So they were going to look into that. They were going to talk to people at the office of pardon, find out what options you know we might have to move forward, see if we can get her paperwork to anybody. Specifically, they have a pardon czar who was pardoned by President Trump, who's in charge of pardon, but they don't even know if she's in Washington or where she's at.
Speaker 2:I've tried to reach out to her. I've reached out to her organization that she personally had I got word of who might be the next head of the Bureau of Prisons. I have tried to reach out to that person and get a note sent to them and let them know I'm fighting on behalf of my daughter I'm concerned about. I already know she's disabled. I'm worried about her coming home in a body bag. I appreciate any help we can get.
Speaker 2:You know people think I'm being overdramatic. I'm like I'm not being overdramatic. Two weeks ago there was a female in her prison that was bullied Michelle's bullied all the time that was bullied. There was a female in her prison that was bullied Michelle's bullied all the time that was bullied constantly, was asking for help and she ended up committing suicide. Is that a concern of mine? Yes, that's a concern of mine, but she can't say anything because if she acts like that as a problem, she will get thrown into solitary and they will put her in a straight jacket or in a mental ward or whatever they'll do, and then she'll just really go downhill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we definitely don't want that to happen. So what's your next steps? What are you doing now? Are you following up the calls that you had? Have you got any calls coming in?
Speaker 2:So what I'm doing now is I'm following up with the five offices that I actually touched base with while I was there, which includes Senator Scott's office. I actually talked to them earlier. I let them know what happened with Representative Greg Stubbe's office. I reached out to him. I let them know the case number. We have the case number now and I gave them updates on what's going on with her and what we want the next step to be. And there's so much discussion right now. Nobody knows the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. You know they're supposed to be letting people out on home confinement. They're supposed to be letting minimums out. They're supposed to be sending people to halfway houses. They're supposed to be getting people's records straightened out and it's a big mess because people's records are wrong, you know. But I'm fighting for my daughter right now.
Speaker 1:I want to fight for everybody, but right now I'm fighting for her life, because if I lose her, then I'm done. I can certainly understand your logic there, for sure. Now, what about your family? How has that affected them and how are you doing on that front?
Speaker 2:This has affected our family greatly and you know I mean we're fortunate in that we have a family to support her. You know I listen to her stories and it's so sad the people that have no one to fight for them. So I say, well, you tell them once. I take care of you, I fight for everybody, but right now I'm just trying to save your life.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good that you think that way. So what's your next step now?
Speaker 2:So my next step is right now. I fly to Texas three times a month to get her out of the facility for a couple hours, to get her out of the toxic environment, to spend time with me. But it's so hard, I mean, she's still crying. It's a year later, she's still crying. You can't touch them. You can't, you know, console them. All you can do is sit and talk to them and just tell them you're going to make it, just keep pushing through, you know, but they don't understand her physical issue and they keep wanting her to work and she can't, she can't, she for her.
Speaker 2:It's begging and pleading. It's constant begging and pleading. I need to be home. I can't do this anymore. You know they're going to just let me die in here. I want to be with my family. I miss everybody. I mean, she wasn't allowed to go to any for those three years. She couldn't go to, like, any funerals or weddings or anything like that. She was, you know, confined to an area. So for four years she hasn't been allowed to do anything, and for a mistake, a mistake that she made, not intentional, no maliciousness for a mistake.
Speaker 1:It sounds like you're on the right track to getting what you want done. It's just going to take some time, because one thing I've found when dealing with a government or anything like that is the hands of time move very, very, very slowly.
Speaker 2:Very slow.
Speaker 1:I think this is going to make a great episode because you have explained the steps that you took. I hope anyone listening, especially those who fortunately aren't in a situation like this, can gain some valuable knowledge from it. Unfortunately, if they are in a similar spot, hopefully they can follow your steps to gain and find success, like you have too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like I said, I had gotten involved with another group years ago and I know one thing that someone told me and I was reminded when I went to Washington if you have people that come and tell you what the problem is and they're in front of you, they have to listen to you and it's usually something they don't know about and if they hear from someone else the same thing and hear from someone else the same thing, then you start to get their ear. And I know with you know the women who were praying at the abortion clinics who got arrested. Some of them were in there with Michelle. You know the 70 and 80-year-old women were in there with her. So they're getting a voice and they're getting to speak out on what the injustices is. But the problem Michelle's having is and even her counselor said to her you're kind of like a unicorn in here because nobody knows she has autism and doesn't understand why she's quirky.
Speaker 1:What is it that she might be doing? That they think is a little quirky.
Speaker 2:They think that she says things to bully people, but that's what comes out of her mouth and she doesn't mean it in a mean or negative way. And she was almost beaten up by her one roommate who was a murderer, who was in there for murder, and Michelle was afraid she was going to be killed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's real tough. What would you like people to know that you think is very important for them to hear and understand?
Speaker 2:I'm happy to tell it. I just hope it can help someone and I hope that all of our voices together will one help some judges understand you can't treat everybody the same, and I know that a lot of the other parents and people are speaking out that law enforcement has to have a little bit of an understanding of this too, because they don't understand. You know, they think someone's lying to them and they're not lying to them. It's just that they're quirky or they don't understand.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a common thing. That's been said about autistic people. Well, this has been a great conversation, great information. I hope it helps a lot of people that are listening. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on my podcast.
Speaker 2:All right, Well, thank you so much, Tony. I look forward to the podcast and hopefully it'll make a difference in somebody's lives.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely Agree with you there, 100%. Well, thanks again. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know anyone that would like to tell us their story, send them to TonyMantorcom contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show. One more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why Not Me, the world, the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone everywhere that you are not alone in this world.