All Together Now Episode 2026 - Episode 4

Welcome back to this summer's joining of all our church-wide Sunday Schools. This is the final episode where we explored what it means to follow Jesus in our "post-Christian" world by celebrating the lives of those who followed Jesus in an ancient pagan world. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

All right, as we get started, I want to share a concern, and then I'll see if there are any other concerns we'd like to share. Amber Marie Schweikart, our children's minister, has had some health issues recently. And she is not with us this morning because of that. Some some conditions. I mean, she's got a gastro condition where her stomach is partially paralyzed, and that kind of has all kinds of repercussions. So, in any event, without going into too many details, just want to invite you to be in prayer for Amber and for her health and treatment and recovery. Much appreciation to Jan Dwyer who helped us scramble to find coverage for children's ministries this morning on short notice. Other concerns as we gather this morning.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Janice Ivey.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Yeah, yeah. Janice Ivey is recovering from neck surgery. We also have Janice Van Veen, thank you. I wanted to say Viet. Janice Van Been. Some of you may know Janice. She's been in the hospital for quite some time, actually. And really complications from hernia surgery that did not go well. But she's in recovery. Cheryl Beckham is recovering from hip replacement surgery.

SPEAKER_07 1:37

Janice Ivy also has broken ribs, so that has acrobated some of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, and a fractured sternum as well. So she's yeah, there's a lot going on there. If anyone would like to be traumatized, you can look at Marsha's pictures of her car. Well, let's pray together. Gracious and loving God, thank you for this place, for this time together in your presence. Thank you for your spirit in us at work among, and we pray through us. Um God, we pray that you would speak, that you would move, that you would form, that you would send us from this place to be your church in this community for your glory, for others' good, and along the way for our good too. In Jesus' name. Amen. Um, so third and final week of the Once and Future Church. We're going to talk about making disciples in Brookwood and beyond. And as we gather, just to kind of touch base, um refresh memories from last week, um, I'm sure most of you uh read and meditate on the book of discipline on a daily basis as good United Methodists. Um I had a clergy colleague in Western Pennsylvania who, no joke, um, read the entire discipline once a year every year. But he also had that kind of like he was a natural speed reader, he had that kind of brain. I think as a pastor while serving a church, he went to law school and got a JD degree just because he thought it would be fun. So, in any event, um, but for the rest of us, we kind of learned certain portions of it. Um, and it actually is important to know that in the United Methodist Church, we do believe that the mission of the local church is to make disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. And I said last week, just to clarify, making disciples is not the same thing as making members of the church. It is also not the same thing as making activists, whether of the left or the right, for the sake of our partisan politics. And finally, it's not even the same thing as making converts. Many of us, many of you grew up in Baptist or fundamentalist churches where the overwhelming emphasis, focus of the whole religious life of the congregation of the church was to get people saved, which meant to confess your sins and receive God's forgiving grace. And last week I said, of course, it is true that we need to receive, we need to accept God's forgiving grace. That is truly gracious. It's a gift which we receive through faith in Jesus Christ. But as John Wesley said, bearing faithful witness to the full gospel, the full witness of Scripture, forgiving grace is really just the door to the house. It ain't the whole house. And so when we enter into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, right, the house itself is discipleship to Jesus, where we enter really into life with Jesus. This is Dallas Willard. And um and so uh I quoted from this article that has meant a lot to me over the years in the heart of a disciple, there's a desire and there is a decision or settled intent, having come to some understanding of what it means, and thus having counted up the costs. The disciple of Christ desires above all else to be like him. Um and then in response to the question, why bother with discipleship? Why should anyone care about being a disciple of Jesus Christ and not just a believer in Jesus and recipient of God's forgiving grace? Willard contends, and again, I think this is a true witness to the to the whole gospel, that there is no problem in human life that apprenticeship to Jesus cannot solve. And then he asked provocatively, what is your church's plan to teach your people how to do everything Christ commanded? We most often don't think about local churches having that as their purpose and needing to have a plan for that purpose. But Jesus said, right, go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to do everything that I commanded. Daunting and impossible except for the promise that the risen Christ will be with us to the very end of the age. So it's not something we do for him, but something we do with him by his wisdom, his grace, his strength. So that kind of brings us back to how well can it make disciples, and this is kind of what we want to focus on these four shared steps in our discipleship of Jesus: gathering, growing, giving, and going. That means gathering for worship and prayer, growing in love. Growing in love is the purpose of Christian education. Sunday school, Bible studies, small groups, the purpose is for us to grow in love, uh, and then giving to bless, and the giving may be financial, but it can also be gifts, skills, abilities, time, presence, um, and then going to love and serve others in Jesus' name. So, all right, so here we are this week, and uh I'm reminded of Jesus saying in John chapter 4, look around you and see how the fields are ripe for harvesting, which may not be how we feel because of how much the world has changed. It may feel like the world, like the fields are pretty bare and nowhere near ready for harvesting. But what if it's true that the fields are always ripe for harvesting? We may need different skills, we may need different tools, we may need a different approach. But what if it's true that the fields really are ripe for harvesting because the fields are filled with people made in God's image. Loved by God. The people for whom Christ died. So I think it's an encouragement for us to believe that that is true, that that is always true. Um, I want to work a little bit, and church council members are familiar with this material, um, but I want to share a little bit from Daniel Aim's book, Discipleship Opportunity. He asked the question in that book: how can we navigate through today's challenging culture and become a stronger, healthier, and more on-mission church? I think the second word in the main title is important, discipleship opportunity. He didn't call it discipleship challenge, discipleship impossibility, but discipleship opportunity. Now the subtitle is, and it's hard for me to see standing where I am, but the subtitle is Leading a Great Commission Church in a Post-Everything World. Alright, so he's his starting point is the world has changed, and how we have done church, how we've made disciples, is not necessarily how we will make disciples. Um, the rules have changed, but the goal remains the same. Since I'm not telling a Steeler story in my sermon upstairs this morning, and this one just occurred to me, let me let me mention it. So most of you, I'm sure, hopefully all of you already know the name Chuck Knoll, Hall of Fame head coach of the Steelers, who engineered their turnaround from lovable losers to dominant team of the 70s. Anyway, um, after retiring, like he kind of disappeared, and then he gave like one interview years after he retired. And I remember the interviewer asking him, Do you think you could coach in today's NFL? And he said, he said, I don't know. Um he said, because of free agency and the cap, it was like so dramatically different. He said, it's more like coaching college football now than when I coached, because they built their teams through the draft. They just kept and then they held on to their players. They had the same players for year after year, and now your roster changes dramatically every single season. Now, changing context, right? But the goal remains the same. Everybody wants to get to and win a Super Bowl. Like that didn't change. How they go about that has changed. Um, so same thing for us as followers of Jesus as the church. All right. Um, and then I think this is kind of key in this book. The church growth movement perpetuated the assumption that if you have the right programs, meet the right felt needs, and are in the right location, then of course people will come. The assumption being everyone is basically seeking. If they're not active in a church, they are seeking a church. Um, they are interested in Jesus. And what he basically says is like, we are now obviously in a context in which you can't assume interest. Many of our neighbors aren't looking for a church and they may not even be interested in Jesus. Like, and that's an important distinction for us to think about. You probably do know people who are interested in Jesus, not sure about the church. Right? Those are, in our minds, for most of us, those two go so closely together that we it's hard for us to imagine having an interest in Jesus that you don't pursue through a local church. But for lots of folks, those two don't go together or don't necessarily go together. But having said that, there are also lots of folks who are not at all interested in Jesus, as well as the church. And so he kind of talks about how in the church growth movement, so basically the church growth movement, I mean, really kind of post-war, when baby boomers were kind of growing up and out of the church, there was this whole movement: how do we re-engage people who grew up and went away? And so, like the modern mega church movement began kind of with seeker-sensitive churches, how do we, you know, how do we get them back? And uh any of you remember the commercial that with the tagline, Not Your Father's Oldsmobile? Um, I think like that's for the church growth movement, that was the that was kind of the approach. Not your father's or mother's or grandparents' church. And so the church growth movement, by and large, right, they ran away from explicitly Christian symbolism. They had sanctuaries that look more like auditoriums, no cross, right? Um, just contemporary music. How do we engage people? We assume they're interested, but how we've done things is the obstacle, it has to, it has to feel new and fresh and current. And so that was kind of the movement. But you could assume interest. You could still assume that most of your neighbors considered themselves Christian, even if they weren't active in a local church, even if they'd never had any kind of come to Jesus moment or period in time, unless they can unless they were Jewish or stood up and said, I'm an atheist, the default setting still was Christian. And so what he's saying is we have to contend now with the undeniable reality that lots of our neighbors do not consider themselves Christians, not because they're Jewish or Muslim, just because they're not. And they're not interested in the church, they're not looking for a church. So just trying to find the right program, the magic program bullet that will solve all our problems when the community itself has changed so dramatically is not going to be it. Alright, so um so he encourages us to think in terms of spectrums of non-Christian to Christian, but also interested and disinterested. This is his matrix for kind of how to view your community. Every community is different, but he kind of contends that all communities now in North America have these kind of four groups. Um I think it's an interesting way. I've kind of tweaked the language with church council because some of it I'm not quite sure that it's the language I would use. Um, but of course, so in the upper right corner, both proof professing uh Christians, people who believe in Jesus and are also interested in following Jesus, we can the New Testament calls those people disciples of Jesus or followers of Jesus, right? Those who are in a relationship with Jesus Christ, who want to become like Christ, who want to participate in his ongoing mission to rescue and heal the whole world. Those are disciples. Now, people who are not perhaps professing Christians, but who are interested in Jesus and maybe the church he calls seekers. Like they are interested. They might be lightly churched or never churched, but they're interested. And so there's already a hunger there, there's already an interest there. Um I think part of the cultural moment for us is that again, people don't automatically think local church when they think Jesus. They might think podcast, they might think, I don't even think they think, let me go find a church to live stream. It's like, what book can I read? What podcast can I listen to? Do you see what I'm getting at? Like the first place people would probably look to engage a spiritual hunger that they have would be somewhere other than a local church. So that's so part of the challenge for us, I think, is to find ways to say, hey, we want to, you know, we want to be a resource. We think a local church is a great way to explore faith in Jesus and life with God. Um a great place to, you know, get to know the Bible. Still a lot of people would like to understand the Bible. Um, those are seekers. Now, he describes as sleepers those who do not profess to be Christian, who are not at all interested in Jesus or the church. Very big category. So you can think about here in Gwinnett, we have a lot of neighbors who are members of other religious traditions. It does not mean that they're against Jesus, that they're opposed to Jesus, that they're hostile to Christians. It's just they have a faith tradition of their own. Obviously, if your neighbors are Jewish, they don't disbelieve in Jesus. They may even like Jesus, but they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah of God. They don't believe that, you know, his death and resurrection are the salvation of the world and the fulfillment of all God's promises to Israel. They don't believe anything. They probably believe that he was a rabbi. They might believe that his own followers have dramatically and disastrously misunderstood him, but they're not necessarily hostile to Jesus. So you get what I'm where I'm coming from? Right? Some of our neighbors are Buddhist, some are Hindu, some are Sikh, some are Muslim. Some are probably agnostic. Like, I believe there's something, but I don't think anybody knows, and I think religion is dangerous because everybody claims to know, and you know, they're not necessarily, they're just kind of wary. Others are atheists. Like, I don't think there is anything. That what we see, what we can touch, you know, the world of the senses is all there is. The material world is the whole world, everything else is just a fantasy. There probably also are in this category people who are wounded by the church. They've been dechurched. You know, they had a spiritually wounding or traumatic experience, and so they they're not interested. They ain't they ain't shopping, they're not buying. Um they've they've been they've been hurt. Um so that's that's some of our neighbors. And then finally, what he calls consumers, those who do profess to be Christian, but they're not actually interested in discipleship to Jesus. They, you know, I mean, it could be, in a sense, it could be just a broad category of cultural Christians. They grew up in a time and in a place where Christian was the default setting, and so they don't disbelieve, they like Jesus. It just never became personal for them, never became deep for them. It's part of the environment in which they were raised, and they sort of believe, but it's not really, you know, it's more like the art on the walls of their house than the whole architecture of their house. Like it's part of their environment, but it's not like it doesn't really give meaning and coherence to their whole lives. Some, of course, maybe were grown, were raised and impacted by traditions where discipleship to Jesus just was not part of the gospel. Again, because they were told that the whole the gospel, the whole purpose of salvation was to get our souls into heaven after we die, and when that's the whole gospel, when that is what it means to be saved, then why bother following Jesus? Especially if you're told again and again, Sunday after Sunday, you will always fail. You are a sinner, you will always be a sinner, and your only hope is God's forgiving grace. And so the only experience that's being offered to you is the experience of forgiveness. Just keep walking in and out of the house, don't learn to live there. And again, I'm not trying to, I'm really not trying to mock, but I am trying to highlight the inadequacies of some of what has been preached and taught as the gospel. Like they're just vast amounts of scripture that don't have a place. They just don't. Some of you heard me say before my high school youth group went to Creation Music Festival several Sundays running. I'll never forget the summer when James Robison, who's a pretty well-known Baptist evangelist, in one of his messages started talking about how in the Gospels Jesus actually expects people to do what he said. And the thing that struck me is that he shared that like it was a new revelation. And it had just occurred to him that Jesus expects his believers, his followers, to actually do what he said. And as United Methodists, I was like, I mean, I'm probably like 15 years old, and I could not believe that the guy on stage was talking about this like it was a lightning bolt, you know, out of the blue. He had no idea. And then he kind of even said it like, can you believe that? I mean, but I think he kind of came from a tradition where that just wasn't that wasn't the gospel, it wasn't part of the gospel, it was an option. So, lots of reasons why we might kind of be consumers of Jesus. I kind of think of these folks as fans of Jesus. In the book, I'm talks about those really who are maybe on self-help journeys or in any number of other kind of spiritualities where Jesus is kind of involved, but he's not really set in the terms. He's not the real goal. He's kind of, you know, he's help, he's helping me achieve my dreams, which I have from other places. But I think of fans. Like I think of these folks as fans. They're fans of Jesus, they like Jesus. They just have never had a clear and compelling vision of discipleship to Jesus, their whole life surrendered to him. So let me stop before we move on and talk about how to reach different types of people in this particular moment and see what comments or questions you may have.

SPEAKER_06 20:27

There are lots of people on the edges too. You know, so I think that's yeah this is a good way to do it by thinking about people that are uh, you know, right so and as we look forward to start targeting, you know, and you know, it's just a ball.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, absolutely, right? This is black and white, the world is gray. People are complicated. I appreciate you saying that.

unknown 20:51

Did you share what box said?

SPEAKER_00 20:53

I'm sorry. Yeah, so thank you. Uh he was just saying that this is kind of black and white, it's clear, we got four boxes, but the reality is people can be kind of on the edges of different, you know, they're not one thing, they can be a couple things at one time.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

As I'm thinking about individuals and groups of people that I know, a lot of them approach the edges. So that's kind of the that's we're looking forward.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

I think in today's world, our expectation of being a disciple is a high bar. So we are reluctant to go to other people share because, well, I don't have all the information. They know me, they know I've done stupid things. Right. But then I think about the first Christians who in those days were compared to rabbis who spent years before they spoke about the faith. Yes. They walked out with no training, right? And in 30 years. The whole world changed because of their discipleship. They didn't say, well, you know, I sinned before, or I don't know all the answers, or I can't quote the Bible. I think those are the things that get in the way for us today.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Wow, yeah, that's such a great, great observation, Rick, and it reminds me of that passage in the book of Acts where the disciples had been preaching in the temple in Jerusalem, and some of the authorities comment that they are unschooled ordinary men. Which is kind of like, well, who are they to be teaching in the temple? That's something done by priests and by rabbis, right? People with degrees and training that we know of and recognize. Yeah. And that's one of the best definitions of evangelism that I ever heard is bringing their story, my story, and the story together in conversation. So we do have to know a little bit about what the story is, which is the good news about Jesus. We don't have to know everything, but we got to know something, right? But then I know my story, and then I listen to their story. And you can think about the man born blind who was healed by Jesus in John chapter 9, and he gets hauled before the authorities, of course, because Jesus healed him on the Sabbath. And at one point is there questioning this man, like, who was this? What did he do? What did he say? You know, and the the response was great. Like, basically said, like, I don't I don't know. I do know this. I once was blind, now I see. Right? So he he shared what he knew in response to their questions. He didn't pretend to know more than he knew, but he claimed what he did know. I once was blind, but now I see. And so if we know that the gospel is the good news about Jesus, and we can say something about the difference that Jesus has made in our life, and if in listening to a family member, a friend, a co-worker, a neighbor, we realize that there is something there for them, you know, that we can share, that we have found helpful in our own relationship with Jesus, then we know enough. Yeah. Other comments or questions? We have to.

SPEAKER_07 24:09

So I'm kind of going on what Lincoln said, if you read the Bible, everybody in there, male, female, adult, child, it doesn't matter. They've all had issues. I mean, it's just in the family. You know, it's everything. And it's almost like whenever, whenever I'm reading it and I'm hearing about all these different characters and everything, I'm like, it's almost like it was written as a precursor for everybody from now on. I mean, it's just you can have issues, but God wants you right there because you had that issue. Yeah. You can help somebody because you had that issue. It's just a, it's kind of like what Beth Blake was saying. You know, you walk around and it's like, God made that. You know, I look at the Bible that way. I look at it like, oh my gosh, these people are as messed up as I am. You know, they're as abused as I am at times, you know, things like that. And it's just so relatable, and it's kind of like what Rick said. Sometimes you look at a disciple and you're like, oh man, I'm I haven't reached that far yet. I can't, I don't know that I could be a good disciple.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah. Right. I I think it's a couple things there, I appreciate that. So that the Bible is really not uh, it's not filled with spiritual heroes. There are people who are exemplary, but they are they are basically good examples and cautionary tales at the same time. Um C.S. Lewis uh somewhere wrote that God draws straight lines with crooked sticks. And in the Bible, every stock is every stick is crooked except for Jesus, which is like a big tell that the gospel writers are telling you this is not just another human being. But everybody else falls short, everybody else fails. And so the Old Testament is a story of how God is faithful despite our unfaithfulness, how God keeps his promises, fulfills his promises, his purposes, move forward despite our faithful, our lack of faith. You know, I think what you see, the best of the saints in the Old Testament are faithful but flawed. They are not flawless. It's two steps forward, one step back, one step forward, three steps back, two steps. I mean, it's just, it's, and a lot of them don't end well. Like they might have a good run, and then at the very end, I mean, I heard somewhere like only 30% of the people in the Old Testament like finish well. That's a distressing statistic for someone who's about to turn 57. Like, oh, you know, I mean, but but really they are like Abraham, the man of faith, who sometimes acts out of faith, but also sometimes acts out of fear. Like, good example, cautionary tale at the same time. So I do think that you're right, the the Bible like it's an encouragement to us. We don't like we don't have to be perfect, we really just by God's grace can make progress. Right?

SPEAKER_10 27:21

God didn't give David the crown, he gave him Goliath.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Hmm. Gave him Goliath?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Goliath.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Okay. God didn't give David a crown, he gave him Goliath.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

I read that somewhere to stuff with me.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So challenges are part of how God works in our lives. Um yeah, so um this will come up in my sermon, but you still have to go upstairs. Um if if someone asks us, are you a Christian? Most of us would probably answer without hesitation, yes. But if they asked you, are you a disciple? a lot of us would hesitate. The reality, and we might say, Well, I try to be. Right? However, a disciple is a binary reality. Either you are or you aren't. Imagine asking me, are you married? And my response is, well, I try to be. Right? Like you misunderstood the quest. Right? A disciple is someone who just of Jesus is just someone who wants to be with Jesus so that they can become like Jesus and then start doing the kind of stuff that Jesus did. That's it. It doesn't mean that you're faithful, it doesn't mean you're flawless, it doesn't mean you've arrived, it just means you're enrolled. It just means you're enrolled. Right? Are you a student at Brookwood? Someone isn't gonna say yes or no, or well, well, no, I'm I'm in college, or no, I'm in middle school, or no, I go to Grayson. It doesn't mean they're a good student. It doesn't mean they, you know, they just they can tell you, yes or no, I'm in this school. For all believers in Jesus, you should know whether or not you're a disciple of Jesus, whether or not you're in a relationship with Jesus and you are learning from Jesus how to how to live a kingdom life in a fallen world. The uncertainty has everything that really to do with the bad job that people like me have done, kind of sharing that.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

There is a difference between a disciple and an apostle. A disciple is learning, an apostle is a messenger.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yes, an apostle is an emissary personally appointed by the risen Lord, at least that's the way they come across in the New Testament. There are people out there who claim to be apostles today, which is a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

But right, so and I think to me, when people say we should be discipline, that means being an apostle.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Well, and so yeah, of Christian faith. I mean, I have the faith, I I I do try to be to lead that kind of example as best as possible. I fall down and skin my knees constantly, but but I to actually consider myself a leader of it, to me, it's but disciple is not the same thing as a leader. And that's where I was saying, you know, that that's kind of a Yeah, and I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

And that is that is part of where the nuance in the New Testament can create confusion. Trying not to blame the New Testament because it's not the New Testament's fault. But the reality is, the reality, and honestly, I was at a seminary before I read something about the gospels that clarified this for me. Part of our own confusion comes from the fact that the gospel writers use the twelve both as representative leaders and as representative followers. And so not everything that Jesus says to them, he is saying to all followers of Jesus. Some of what he said to them, he is saying more to pastors, right, teachers, bishops, superintendents, people in the people in specific types of leadership roles. But a lot of what he said to them, he says to all believers, all followers of Jesus. So that's so I'm trying to work with this, right? In their role as apostles, emissaries of the risen Christ, right, there are some things that were unique to them. And the New Testament letters do talk about, you know, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers. There are some leadership roles that were in the early church that are in the church today. But when someone is asking you, are you a disciple? They're not asking if you're an apostle. Um they're not asking if you were like one of the twelve or the apostle Paul. They're not even asking, are you like Barnabas? Um, they're asking, uh, are you like Mary? Martha, um, Zacchaeus, the woman at the well. I'm trying to think of somebody else who's not a leader because there are other followers of Jesus. Ruth, right? So disciple really is just student apprentice. We'll talk about this a little bit more this morning upstairs. Um the invitation is to do more than believe like some things about Jesus or believe in the power of Jesus' death for our forgiveness. It's it's to trust in Jesus as you know, present in your life through the Holy Spirit, teaching each of us, just as followers, how to live in the kingdom of God. Go ahead, Roxanne.

SPEAKER_10 32:55

So we're just looking at this chart.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 33:01

Um disciple that says a Christian and interested.

unknown 33:05

And that's the definition of disciple. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah. Right, right.

SPEAKER_08 33:12

I mean, if that's what it means to be a disciple to be a Christian, you're interested in Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah. Yes, yes, pretty much it. And it doesn't mean you're very far along, doesn't mean you've learned very much. It's just you you want to learn and you want to grow. Um, you know, so um uh I um I I had originally planned to share this in worship this morning, but it dropped out in the journey to Sunday, so you'll get it as a throw-in, and then it may show up some other Sunday. But um I I can I can tell you the day I decided to run a marathon, become a runner, and run a marathon. It's when I was watching Susanna run the Boston Marathon in April, I think it was April 18th, 2005. And it was just so awesome to see all of these people running 26.2 miles in Boston, you know, outside Boston, they start outside and then they finish in. And realizing as I'm waiting to kind of see her, and the streets are like filling with people, realizing, oh, like, yeah, the elite people ran by, but then everybody else is like normal. They've got all different body types, they're all different ages, all different paces, but all of them are doing this extraordinary thing, running 26.2 miles consecutively in one day. And like they can you they can do, like anyone can do this, almost anybody can do this if they just train. So that was like before he even started, I was like, I'm doing this.

unknown 34:51

Right?

SPEAKER_00 34:51

So that's when I decided basically to become a disciple of my then fiance, future wife, and learning how to do this thing and become this thing. That doesn't mean that I became a good student of her coaching. I was still trying to impress her, and so I can remember some runs where we would go up the hills because it's Western PA, and me wanting to be impressive, charged up the hill and then was at the top of the hill, bent over, gasping, trying to recover my breath while she just patiently ran up the hill. And then after a few times, it struck me, okay. I just need to relax, stop trying to be impressive, be smart instead, and just follow her lead, right? So that's a like I was I was a student. I was not a very good student at the beginning, but I got I became a better student. So, all right. Uh other comments or questions about this?

SPEAKER_09 35:45

That made me think of the um issue of being a leader or not. So much of what I think we do as Christians who are interested is lead an example. You don't have to be the leader of a group, but you live a life that says, I want to live like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_09 36:07

And that's the discovery you had in running.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah. Yeah. Like I honestly didn't know until I met her that like I knew in my head, but I didn't really know that this was a thing people do. I didn't even like running. To be honest with you, I didn't. I hated running. I I ran, but I like wanted to get it over, and it was not like and then I realized, okay, first lesson I learned in running with her was oh, I didn't like it because I wasn't doing it right. I didn't know how to run. Like my pacing was all off. That's why I hated it. I had no idea how to run. So that was the first thing, was like, oh, this can actually be enjoyable. And then, right, the second thing was, oh, like ordinary people can do this pretty cool, extraordinary thing, which makes it less intimidating and less extraordinary. Like it's, oh, like this is doable. Right? So yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then you see Jesus, he didn't just proclaim that the kingdom of God has come near, the kingdom of heaven has come near. What else did he do that gave credibility to the words that he spoke? He healed the sick, he cast out demons, he fed the hungry, he raised the dead. Right? So he enacted the kingdom that he also proclaimed. And then what happens after the resurrection and the descent of the Spirit, the early church, same thing. Right? Prayed for the sick, cast out demons, those who were hungry, you know, forgave enemies. Like they bore witness, they embodied the kingdom to which they bore witness. Not perfectly, not flawlessly, but faithfully. Like I'm gonna fall down, but I'm gonna get up and keep going. Other comments or questions before we move on.

SPEAKER_10 38:00

And I wanted to share something about Kyros because we go into the prison and um it's a lay ministry. We do have clergy there with us, but they're there to answer questions or to give stuff. Um but I we're we go in there to be, not to be leaders. Um we think about what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments, to love the Lord your God and to love your neighbor as yourself. So we go in with four words listen, listen, and then love, love. That's what we spend what 40 hours training to do. Um and for most of us it comes easily. But um it has had a profound effect on my life in terms of of what I feel like I can do. Yeah, you know, when I see God and Jesus, they've just always been way up there. I'm not that I'm like them at all, but how simple but you are but the simplicity of that is empowering.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

The simplicity of that is empowering.

unknown 39:20

It is.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Well, and it's striking to me that the Shema, listen, Israel, right? And then you shall love the Lord your God. So in our relationship with God as well as with others, we listen so that we may love. I mean, that how that's pretty, I never thought about it in those terms, but that's powerful that in order to love your neighbors, you listen first and learn how to love. And we and the same thing is true in our relationship with God, so that at all times we really begin by listening. Yeah. I'm sorry, you were gonna say something.

SPEAKER_10 40:00

Once you know somebody's story, you can't help but love them.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Once you know somebody's story, you can't help but love them.

SPEAKER_10 40:08

And it is amazing some of the stories we hear.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 40:13

We go back every month and we are excited to see the women, and most of them are excited to see us. And and there's there's a relationship that we want them to build within the community. Yeah. Um, so we want them to be on their own. We don't want to feed them all.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah. Um, let me move on because we're running out of time. Um, so how do we reach our neighbors today? And this again is drawn from that book because um he's got some thoughts on how we reach neighbors given those differences of interest, not just of professed faith. Um, and so I want to look at the bottom left corner, what he calls the sleepers, what I think of as the nevers, those who right now are basically saying, I will never be a Christian, I will never be all that interested in Jesus, I'm certainly never gonna be interested in the church. There is no invitation, there is no Christmas Eve Easter Sunday extravaganza that will be appealing or attractive. They are not in the market for what we are selling. How, and so you're not directly, there's no programmatic answer to this, there's no special service for this, there's no gimmick for these neighbors. But um, and so basically what Daniel I'm says is that we really the com the congregation reaches people indirectly through prayer, hospitality, friendship, and service. This is what we were talking about over here, right? It's through through living the gospel in our communities that we we bear we bear with. There's no programmatic answer to this. It's it's really praying for our neighbors, practicing hospitality, being a friend, um serving the community around us. That that maybe it's maybe at some point we we we get enough credibility that someone wants to know why. Or they want to know our story, maybe they'd like to, you know, they want to hear our story. Um but then that means of course that we just we need, I think that the principal thing there is that we live at a time and in a culture where Christians are encouraged to have a warfare siege mentality at all times and to view with hostility the hostile world around them. And as Carrie Newhoff has said, a Canadian pastor, you can't war on a people and reach a people at the same time. And so I think there's a gut check for us. How do I view my neighbors who don't share my faith? Because I can't reach a people and war on a people at the same time. And am I, do I feel like I'm at war with my neighbors? Do I do I look at at my neighbors as enemies who need to be conquered? Right? Or neighbors who need to be loved? How do I, where's my heart? What's my attitude? Um I in a defensive posture, and I feel like the church just has to circle the wagons. Do you know you know what I'm getting at, right? There's a heart issue here. Um, the early church was actually persecuted, officially and unofficially, directly and indirectly. They they they experienced hostility because of their faith in Jesus in the very strange ways it made them live. Um, that in the eyes of their neighbors were really inviting divine displeasure and catastrophe for the cities and towns in which they lived. I mean, they were they were in a hostile environment that they did not fight fire with fire. They did what Jesus said, they loved those who hated them. You know, they prayed for those who cursed them. I mean, so having a crucifixion. Form witness to the gospel, I think is absolutely crucial. And going to war against our neighbors will always be a very terrible way to win our neighbors. So that's something for us to think about. Now, seekers, again, I think directly and indirectly, and here's where we have a little bit of time left. I want us to think together, because I really am interested in what you think, which of our, like, we're not here to reach everyone in our community, but there there's clearly are people we are uniquely positioned and equipped to reach with the love of God and Jesus Christ. And so who do you see, or what types of people, or who do you meet? Like, who can't who who is interested in Jesus and maybe open to exploring him through this community of faith because of who we are, where we are, what we have to offer. You know, so for example, right now, like if I'm in my 20s and I'm spiritually searching and I'm interested in Jesus, Canon's probably not where I'm gonna, probably not. We just received two new members, a young couple, we're both 26, so it anything can happen, but we don't seem to be uniquely positioned to reach that demographic. So, you know, who are we positioned to reach? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 45:23

Because I think a lot of um kids today, especially the ones who grew up post-COVID, where they had all that stuff ripped away from them, are probably looking for some Catholic Church experiencing a resurgence, right? And that's what they are saying. I need something solid, I need something that I can depend on.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

So while that may not naturally, but it may it may be an opportunity.

SPEAKER_06 45:49

It may be an opportunity. I mean, because they've seen the dark church, right? Which is what I call the new churches that all the collect auditoriums. Yeah, you know, but our church has sunlight. Yeah. You know, and people talk to each other, even if we are old.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Okay. Yeah. Okay, so thank you for saying that. So it could be that that our our the contrast is part of what we offer to the people who we don't seem equipped to reach, but that maybe that may be the thing. Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

So when they come in that door, don't let them up because we need to be right away.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

That's that's our hospitality plan, is everybody bring everybody to meet Jan. Especially since Beth Willis moved to Mississippi. We have yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_10 46:45

I think we have a natural connection that we've developed over the years with Gwen Oaks. They trust us. Um we help them and we have lots of connections with them. Um and they the the children are children of parents who are often going, do I need to put my child in church? And you know, they may have had bad experiences, but we do have an audience at Went out and at um her and you know, the other elementary schools uh uh Brookwood Elementary simply because of the nature of people that have young children are looking for that same sort of thing, not what the COVID is looking for.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Yeah, but they are working for something in their mind.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:45

Can I tell us one more thing? Yeah. Um this goes back to the student teacher. I think we have constructed in our minds this we only get information, with all due respect, from the sage on the stage.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

You should only get information from the sage on the stage. But go on.

SPEAKER_06 48:08

But in my experience, and the literature is very strong on this, most learning takes place between two people. So sitting next to someone, teaching them how to read, teaching them how to do these things is a huge component of learning. So I think we sell ourselves short sometimes by thinking, well, maybe I'm not qualified to do this. Right. And in life, being for something is very difficult. Being against something is the easiest thing in the world. So criticizing something is something that people are very good at. So in our little minds, we need to not be so hard on ourselves and say, you know what, I may not have you know years of schooling, but I certainly have a life story to tell. Right. And I certainly believe that, but we gotta practice telling that story and telling love. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Yeah, yeah. And the reality is, right, you're talking about spiritual friendship. We we need companions, um, we need partners. We need I mean, it really, yeah, absolutely. I mean that that's I think that's absolutely crucial. Nope, that's totally fine. And they're and they're yeah, and um, and I've wondered about that, how to encourage people to develop those kind of spiritual friendships. Like we like established churches like ours tend to do classes and we know how to do classes. We don't have as much history encouraging those kind of spiritual friendships. How can we encourage that? Where it's maybe you and a couple friends, and you say, We're gonna, you know, we're gonna we're gonna work through this book together, or we're just gonna get together, we're gonna make a point of just getting together, whatever, once a week, once a month, and just check in with each other. We'll call it a class, we'll call it a class, and there will be food. All right. Uh other comments or questions about any of this before I move on with a couple other things. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 50:01

Whenever I reach uh a new member, like we did this past Sunday, I always say, welcome to our family. And we are a family. Right. Um, I care a lot about everybody here.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Right, right.

SPEAKER_08 50:15

And I I I hope that they feel that.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Yeah. Yeah, and that so that also reminds me, right, one of the things we're seeing in our society, and I'm sure we see it in our community, is an epidemic of loneliness. We're increasingly disconnected from each other. Um and so I think canon, the culture that is here, um, absolutely, right, kind of in is in contrast to that. That experience of caring community, supportive community, I think is something that we do have to, that we do have to offer. Um and I do think we also have something to offer people who maybe were raised in sort of a hellfire and brimstone environment where Gaba's most often invoked as a threat, and there's a spiritual hunger there for something, there's a there's a suspicion that that's not the whole story, that there's that there's more to the gospel than that, there's more to this faith than that, and so there's an interest in finding a different kind of setting where diff where there's a there's a different vibe and a different emphasis. And so I think that that's something that seems to be in the church already, that I think is probably it's not as present as it would have been in the past in the community, but I'm sure it's still out there. Um and uh so but then to circle back to what Bob said, I think there are people who are spiritually searching, who are hungry, and who have realized that do-it-yourself spirituality, though attractive initially ends up becoming kind of frustrating. Because if there's more to life than this, there's gotta be more to faith than just me. Like there's and and having like having received wisdom, having people who've kind of been on this journey for a little bit, seems like a resource instead of a limitation. Um all right, we're gonna have to go. Let me let me share one brief encouraging story. Um, Luke was at cross-country camp in Gatlinburg, so that was like the other week. Anyway, um, and he talked, I think I I talked about some of this already. Anyway, so um 15, about 18 kids. Um they had a great week of running, but they also had a great week of coming together. And Luke mentioned two things on their, like the next to the last night, they went into Gatlinburg and went out for pizza, and he said two things. He said, one, everybody went together. In the past, they always kind of split up into sp into breakout groups, but this time everybody went together. And he said, one of the kids, a friend of his named Ben, suggested that they put their cell phones in a pile on the table, and they did. Everybody was just present to everybody else. High school students, right? So the desire for relationship, for community, right? For meaningful interaction. They want, you know, they want to have fun, but they want to like be together. Let's be here. Like I almost cried. I mean, it really was, it was really such an awesome moment. Like, to I just love that image of those kids. And so let that linger. Like, we are made in the image of God. We can't get away from that, even if we want to. Like, we we cannot be fully ourselves by ourselves. We need other people. Not in a desperate, codependent, clingy, you know what I mean? Like a full, rich life together, kind of like in all of its messiness and all of its glory, we really need other people. We cannot be ourselves by ourselves. We were made in the image of a God who was love, and that will, like, we can't get away from it. We will we will find our way back to it. Because we have to. So let me offer a word of prayer, and then everybody's gonna go upstairs for the service. Nobody's gonna check. Just kidding. All right, let's pray. God, thank you so much for everyone here. Thank you for your image in them, um, your son's life, death, and resurrection for them, your spirit now in us through your son. God, thank you for the thoughts we have shared, the questions we've engaged, for the mission before us, the opportunity before us, and also for the challenges before us. We pray that you would use those challenges to form us in Christ's image for your glory, for others' good. And uh we pray for good things the rest of this day in Jesus' name.

unknown 54:43

Amen.