Tackling Housing Challenges in Central New York

It’s estimated that Onondaga County will need to build around 2,500 new units of housing per year in order to meet expected growth demands. It’s averaged just about half of that in recent years.  

Housing is a vital piece of the puzzle as we work to grow sustainably and equitably. It will require creative solutions and dedication from the entire community to create a more accessible and affordable housing market.  

On this episode of Talk CNY, presented by NBT Bank, Ryan Benz, managing partner of ReDev CNY, and Ben Lockwood, president and CEO of Housing Visions, discuss how they found success in building the housing our community needs.  

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Transcript

0:00

This is Talk CNY, a semi-monthly podcast by CenterState CEO. We're an independent nonprofit committed to creating inclusive, equitable and sustainable economic growth in Central New York. Join us as we meet the people and explore the projects driving the regional economy forward. This is Talk CNY, presented by NBT Bank. I'm Katie Zilcosky, director of communications at CenterState CEO and your host of Talk CNY. It's estimated that Onondaga County will need to build around 2,500 new units of housing per year in order to meet expected growth demands. Right now, on average, the county has built just about half of that in recent years. Housing is a vital piece of the puzzle when it comes to growing sustainably and equitably. It's going to take creative solutions and the dedication of the entire community to create an accessible and affordable housing market. On this episode of Talk CNY, presented by NBT Bank, we speak with two of the people who have found success building the housing our community needs. Ryan Benz, managing partner at Redev CNY and Ben Lockwood, president and CEO of Housing Visions. Ryan, Ben, thank you both so much for being here today. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, I look forward to the conversation. Katie: So I want to start by talking a little bit more about the both of you, Ryan. You are a managing partner, Redev CNY. Ben, you are the President and CEO of Housing Visions. Can you tell me a little bit more about both of your roles and some of the notable projects you've been a part of? Ben: Sure. So I've been in my role for about six years now. I've been with the organization for 20. We've seen a lot of growth. If you'd asked me 21 years ago what I'd be doing for a living, this probably wouldn't have popped up. I really view myself as being, I got lucky. I had some great mentors, a great mentor who hired me, which again comes into the luck of the draw. Big projects that we've worked on in Syracuse, Moyer. I love Moyer. That was a labor of love, and it's just so visible. And then really the work we've done along East Genesee Street, then front of St. Joe's. I really like the big visible projects. Sometimes they're not the easiest, but I really like the high impact that we tackle sometimes. Yeah. And Ryan.

Ryan: 2:18

Awesome. Yeah, so Redev CNY is a real estate development firm that started about six years ago. I like to think that when my firm grows up, we'll be Ben and his firm. I have so much admiration for what these guys do. But yeah, we are a local Syracuse space development firm nowadays specializing mostly in affordable condos, has kind of been our last couple of projects. Some of the more notable projects, obviously we did, I call it the Penfield building or the Moyer Carriage Lofts. The building with the house on it with our friends at Housing Visions. We also did the Whitney Lofts project, which is where Oh My Darling is, a restaurant I own. I have a school under construction in East Syracuse, a couple of other smaller ones. But we're staying busy.

Katie: 2:59

I bet. I mean, you both mentioned the Moyer Carriage Lofts. I do want to talk a little bit about that. I mean before it was the 128 units of affordable housing. It was a sprawling campus of historic but worse for where buildings I'm sure. What made you guys want to take on that property and that project? It seems like a lot. It probably was a lot.

Ben: 3:20

I think some of it is you don't know what you don't know until you get into it.

Ryan: 3:23

What'd you do to get it - is a real question.

Ben: 3:24

I think for anybody who's grown up around Syracuse, it is an iconic building. So many people are like, oh yeah, I know that one. And when we first started walking through the building, you're like, okay, okay, I can see it. I can see it. Then you got certain parts of the building and it was like, don't walk there. You knew you were going to have some challenges in it, but just to be able to tackle such a big building, really almost an anchor institution on the North Side to be able to help with the revitalization of that neighborhood, which still needs a push. And I think we were the beachhead for some of the good work that's going on and we want to be additive to other things that are going on in the neighborhood.

Katie: 4:05

Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan: 4:06

Yeah. I'd only add, I think as you mentioned, the anchor component. So I think that as both of our firms look for, you look for those projects that are going to spur additional development and that Penfield building, I'm very proud to say that it's a different development team, but they're now developing the buildings across the street as additional housing. There are historic properties over there, but I think as you look at both of our portfolios, you find these unique assets that are either in the middle of an area that needs to be done or an anchor like the Moyer one, and you hope that development kind of fills in to that point. And not only that, but the need for affordable housing and safe, affordable housing certainly, and I think we are both very proud of the fact that this particular building has 50 units set aside for people with serious mental illnesses or domestic violence victims, and that was a partnership with Catholic Charities. So you look for these little anchor opportunities to really add value to the community.

Katie: 4:56

Yeah, absolutely. I mean the affordable aspect, the supportive aspect, why did you prioritize that? Why was that so important to add those into this project?

Ben: 5:04

I think given the expense of the project, the physical state of the building meant it was going to take a lot of different financing sources. The low-income housing tax credit was a primary driver to be able to get this building where it was. We also layered in historic tax credits. It was a contaminated site, so brownfield tax credits, and then the state stepped up with other various soft financing as we call it. Not quite grants, but pretty close. Just the physical task of putting it on. And then where the neighborhood is right now. If we had looked at market, I don't think we could have gotten the rents to support our development cost. So that's the great thing about the Low Income Housing Tax Credit is we can use this and hopefully we will see the other buildings that are across the street spur good private activity market rate units and we hope that we, us being first to add onto what Ryan said is that whoever comes in next can point and go like, well look at that investment across the street. Let's go.

Katie: 6:00

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about the financing aspect. You guys really did piece together a lot of different housing programs in order to get this project across the finish line. Can you give a little insight into that? I think housing programs for people they feel like maybe hard to conceptualize or even get started on. So what was your process in engaging with those?

Ryan: 6:22

To address the challenges that the fiscal challenges of this project because of cost of construction, you really have to take a step back to recognize that there is a huge disparity between, as Ben just mentioned, the market rent you can get relative to the cost of construction. And that's a conversation that I think we're going to be continuing to have for the next couple of decades here locally. And it's incredibly challenging to develop anything without some kind of a subsidy. So then you figure, so what does the market need? What can the market support? And then how do you kind of fill those gaps here relative to the tools you have at your disposal? And here has been mentioned the low-income housing tax credit was critical. It stabilizes the neighborhood. It stabilizes the building. When you look at, and I'm also very proud again of the fact that when you look at the income mix within the building, it's actually a mixed income. We go from 30% of AMI, up to 120% of AMI.

Katie: 7:08

Oh, great.

Ryan: 7:08

With that it averages at 60%, but again, it's really intended to be that driver of mixed income, mixed livability, and you hope that spurs additional market or additional development around there in general. Then once you realize those things, then you have to find the right partners that can speak that language. And that's where Housing Visions really comes in. And I think you can speak really to that side.

Ben: 7:29

We've been utilizing the low-income housing tax credit since our inception in 1990, which at that point it was a new program. It was part of the 86 Reagan Tax Reform. So when we got in a lot of things in life, are timing and luck, and I think we had good timing even beyond that. The church where our not-for-profit got our start, there was another member who came sort of a little bit like Ryan's as they were building other stuff and then they were like, well, wait a minute, I can do this. And so we had some natural learning and partners that were in the church that kind of guided how we got our start and got off the ground or at least being familiar of like, yeah, this is real. So the low income housing tax credit's been part of what we do at Housing Visions. We're experts in that field. And I really think it speaks to the partnership of when Redev, with Ryan and Steve. They've got great local contacts working through the long brokerage process it took to secure the property, all those things. And when we worked together, we came up with something better than the sum of our parts. And then really as Huber Breuer, as our general contractor on this one, both of our firms have general contracting firms. That was a bit out of our league. I mean, sometimes you got to admit what you don't know. And Huber Breuer, with a hundred plus years of experience, really helped us get through a trickier construction process than I think any of us would've anticipated at the beginning.

Ryan: 9:00

I think of the value of partnerships here, because this has been mentioned, there's a time when you could do it yourself and that's cool. And there's times to bring in folks that are smarter than you and have different areas of expertise. And as it relates to this particular project, Ben mentioned the low income housing, the historic tax where it's the Brownfield, the state fund, and the ESSHI, the supportive housing component, the city of Syracuse county of Onondaga, if I remember correctly, I think it was eight different sources or eight or nine different sources of revenue or of income of private financing or debt financing in some capacity to get this project across. So understanding with each one of those, there's different regulatory agreements, have different ways to bridge the tax credits or utilize the tax credits or it really is, there's a reason they're the best. And I think that this project probably showed exactly why and everything that they can do.

Katie: 9:45

I was going to say that sounds very incredibly complex you would want a big group of partners to help you engage on a project like this.

Ryan: 9:53

Partnerships are critical to it, and that's one way to do it. But in my humble opinion, I think the other challenge here is zoning regulations. And I find the city of Syracuse to be very prohousing, prodevelopment pro-multifamily housing. But then you step outside of this and you see a lot more challenges at the micro town village level, county level where we need, if you were to say to me, what do you need to be successful in the long term from housing, we need as-of-right multifamily housing development available to us in the towns and villages that surround us.

Ben: 10:24

When we look at Upstate New York, we've got a lot of things that people would say like, oh, that stinks, or that's not good. Well, what do we have? We've got great urban fabric, historical fabric, and this building to be able to bring it back is - it's satisfying personally and organizationally. But the economic incentive of the historic tax credits as a tool, both the federal and state historic tax credits was critically important. If those didn't exist, we're more than likely having a different conversation about this building today.

Katie: 10:56

We're going to take a quick break here for a word from our presenting sponsor, NBT Bank. I would recommend NBT Bank to any business. My name is Chris Polimino and I'm the president of Atlas Fence. Chris had decided to purchase Atlas Fence from the previous owner. He had previous connections at NBT Bank. NBT Bank provided me equipment financing, doubling our entire production workforce. It's important to me as a business owner that the decisions of our banking relationship are made locally. Welcome back. This is Talk CNY, presented by NBT Bank. I'm Katie Zilcosky, director of communications at CenterState CEO and your host for Talk CNY. I am here with Ben Lockwood and Ryan Benz. Today we are talking about housing - Ryan. Ben. Thank you guys so much for being here.

Ben: 11:45

It's great to be here with you. Thank you.

Katie: 11:47

So you guys are both really great partners to CenterState CEO, as we all try to work on strategies to help kind of alleviate some of these housing challenges our region has been facing. You guys, as we kind of demonstrated in the first part of this episode, working it day in and day out, what are some of the issues and strategies that are top of mind for you? What are you working on? What are you hoping to see?

Ryan: 12:11

Yeah, it's great to work on housing. There's a ridiculous need, ridiculous opportunity right now, and there's a lot of work that we all have to do focusing on a mix of affordable and residential and market rate. It's really critical. Some of the projects that we're working on most recently are home ownership based where they, again, utilizing different state subsidies to create home ownership opportunities for individuals and families. Making up to that 100% of AMI market rents, which is pretty cool. But yeah, I mean as we solve and as we look into the future, it's going to require a multifaceted approach here. No doubt.

Ben: 12:47

Yeah, I mean, I think Ryan's being modest, he's taking on, they have the designation of being the first on the condo-type projects that they're working on. Which somebody has to be first in the pool. I think we're going to need more ideas like that going into the future. Given the economic growth we're about to undertake, we're going to need some people to try some new and different things. And so CenterState has a housing committee. I think just the connections on those sometimes that maybe weren't logical, that people didn't know one another. There's some really helpful pieces of saying like, Hey, I can help you with that. I mean, the more we can get together at a table and bring diverse partners together is really important. And I think CenterState can play a good important role in that. And then as a group, advocacy is so important. When we look at resources that we're going to need, whether it be local, state, federal, we're much stronger as a group than we are individually.

Ryan: 13:46

And I think kind of more specific things that I think, and I love that sense of as community partners, how do we advocate for these things? I mentioned previously the zoning. I think that's really critical. Was it about a year ago, the state came out with pro-housing communities. I think there can be, should be, which is a wonderful program. It's a way for local municipalities to solicit state funding to assist in the infrastructure to ready housing sites across the state here. And I think there might be an opportunity to tie that to allowing for that multifamily. So if you're going to take the money, then make sure that from a zoning perspective, you then are allowing developers to come in and develop off of the money that you're now receiving from an infrastructure perspective. I think that's a key opportunity. I think from a federal perspective, we're likely going to see funding probably continue to be reduced. So it's going to require unique new ways from a city, from a state, a way to fill those gaps that I mentioned previously. And I don't know quite the answer yet.

Katie: 14:42

Yeah, I mean, have you seen creative solutions maybe implemented in other places or even kind of small pockets of the state or our local region that you would like to see either implemented here or expanded upon here?

Ben: 14:56

I think in the affordable world, everyone right now, or a lot of people are really interested in Montgomery County, Maryland has a unique public-private partnership, where a not-for-profit, which also, it's a quasi government, has been able to provide low interest financing in exchange to get projects going. And for a certain, say, 20, 30% below market units. And then ultimately this not-for-profit ends up owning it. All by being able to bring in, it's basically taking stuck projects, providing low-interest financing, and that gets the project going. And the exchanges, you're going to get units below market. Not all of it, but that's a good part. Then in the long term, this not-for-profit's going to own it, and this quasi-governmental social housing is what it's termed. So you're starting to see that in Montgomery County. Atlanta's taking a look at it. It's kind of the soup de jour right now. Yeah.

Ryan: 15:54

I've also seen that from the city of Syracuse stepped in with and ESD more specifically, if I remember correctly, they recently announced 30 million in funding intended to utilize low interest loans for development.

Katie: 16:06

Yeah, I mean I think we've probably demonstrated plenty on this episode that housing is very complex, a lot of moving parts, a lot of partners. So what draws both of you to this space and what keeps you doing this work?

Ryan: 16:20

When you look at the demand that we have within this community, a lot of it starts in housing. When you look at the affordability crisis, when you look at homelessness or even mental health issues, a lot of that's related to financial struggles or not having the resources available. And so you figure out, that's why I love home ownership opportunities, as been mentioned. I'm very happy, proud, we are the first ones in New York State to utilize the AHOP program is what it's called for condos. That's a great program, but we need so much more housing of all different income levels. That's what draws me to it is whether it's affordable or market, every opportunity is an opportunity to help other families. And we need, what is it? Six, 6,000, I think. Is that the rough number right now?

Ben: 17:04

Yeah, almost annually.

Ryan: 17:05

Yeah. I think it's 3000, 2,500 to 3000 per year. 6,000 was the number of families that are currently waiting for Section Eight housing. That's the number of families that are waiting for vouchers right now. So we have a lot of work to do.

Katie: 17:15

Absolutely.

Ben: 17:16

I like personally, I like being able to conceive it, see it, have it built, and then be able to look at it and touch it at the end. I think that's the great part about being a developer. We take on high impact projects. So they are pretty visible when we do them. That keeps me going. And really, I was somewhere last week doing an interview with a property manager, and I talked to one of the tenants who'd been there for six years. She was the first one in. And admittedly in my seat, I normally don't get the people thanking me. And so to hear this resident say,'My husband had died the year before. I didn't have any place to go.' This was, and it was great. She goes, 'My grandkids come over. We have dinner. We were able to do this.' And then to even call back to our employee who leased it up, who's still with us today, that resident still remembers how we treated her six and seven years ago. And that one was perhaps one of the greatest compliments of, again, it's how people make you feel and this person made this resident feel valued. To be able to be additive to the community is really great.

Katie: 18:30

Yeah, I mean, community seems to really be at the core of both of your work. I mean, how has this community shaped what you want to add back into it?

Ben: 18:40

I want to see Syracuse be cool. We can't really change the weather, but we can change our attitudes. I'm born and raised here. It has been a, ah...and if you'd asked me when I was 19 years old, are you having coming back? I would've said no. But again, luck is a key theme where we're back. I really appreciate having family here. I love the fact that in Central New York, you can be just about anywhere in 15, 30, 45 minutes. I think it's a great place. You can be on the water. You can ski. I think there's just a lot going for it, and I think the people help make this a great place.

Ryan: 19:26

Yeah. It's a city of opportunity. No doubt. And as we think about what the future looks like, I mean we're all optimistic that it's going to be brighter than it is. As I think about how the community shaped me, I'm from Syracuse as well. I was born in the city over on Cook Ave. I lived there for a long time, moved to Liverpool, and I came from a blue collar family. My father worked a thousand hours. My mother, similarly. So you think about, I think there's a correlation between taking care of your fellow men and affordable development in a lot of ways. I think we both feel a responsibility to making sure that the future is brighter for everybody. That it's equitable. Right now, it's probably easy to say it's bright for your top 20% of who the county residents are or maybe they're not. They don't have food insecurity. They're stable in their housing. You look at the poverty rates specifically among the city of Syracuse, the poverty rates for the number of children, more than half the children in the city of Syracuse schools live in poverty. The poorest of the poor move three times a year. How do you give the children in and make Syracuse school again? You need stable housing. You need to give them emotional support through housing, making sure that they know where their next meals are coming from and that the roof is safe over their head in a safe lead-free home. So I think it's all tied together. I think that's kind of who Syracusans are in general. We take care of each other. If you can make it through the winters here, you have a resilience, and it's going to be a resilience that we all can rise together. And I think that that's what the future demands right now.

Katie: 20:57

Yeah. Looking to the future, are there specific projects that you two are working on right now that you're particularly excited about?

Ben: 21:06

We are finishing up development on the South Side. In the West Side right now called Creekside Landing, 50 plus units. Jubilee Homes, we'll have some commercial space for a training center in that. What I'm really excited for, our offices are currently at 1201 East Fayette. It's a highly underutilized piece of land. We are going to do a redevelopment that includes 140, 150 housing units on that site and then a new office for us. We're just in the beginning phases of that, but that's one that we've talked about it for a long time. We have a Creeky HVAC system, so I'll be the first one in line to knock the building over when the time comes.

Ryan: 21:50

That'd be a great project. Ryan: As I've hinted at, we're nearing construction on the first AHOP project, which is the redevelopment of St. Matthews Elementary School in East Syracuse. That's 21 units we're finishing next Friday, actually.

Katie: 22:04

Oh, wow. That's so exciting. We will be marketing those. And those be sold again, individuals, families, 80 to a hundred percent of income levels. We have a project under construction with VIP Construction and another fantastic partner of ours at 1117 West Fayette Street. That's 38 units. And then we have a lot in the pipeline. We have a project in Auburn, which is in pre-development. We're working on a new building here in the city of Syracuse, which I'm planning about 60 units on that. That'll be, again, AHOP new building off of West Street, kind of in that west side area. We have a project in Rochester, our first one out of town, which is in pre-development, and another one we're looking at as well. So we're going to continue going and trying to find opportunities. But I'll also add though, all of these opportunities that I and we just mentioned, none of them are outside the city of Syracuse. It goes back to the zoning. So how do we make that available so that we can make sure that this is spread across the community? Yeah, I mean, zoning I think is such a big theme and making sure that we can have more housing supply. What are some other changes you'd like to see in Syracuse in Central New York over the next five, 10 years when it comes to the housing landscape?

Ryan: 23:05

Well, I'll say permitting is going to continue to be an issue. I'm very concerned about the latest budget and what that did to the permitting office, and specifically related to third-party reviews, and very disappointed in the county, in the common council as it relates to those budget cuts. We need more of that. I think I'd like to see a greater tie between those state funding that I mentioned for being a pro-housing community, and then greater density allowed as-of-right, which And I think we need to look at, the county executive has been very strong for his need, demand, for changing zoning. And one of the changes that I thought was interesting in Baldwinsville was they would not allow for the decrease of the size of a lot size, I think from one acre down to a third of an acre, which significantly reduced the density. As I mentioned, development is ridiculously expensive, so you can't amortize the cost of roads and infrastructure and sewers in a lower density like that. So I'd like to see a little bit more understanding and flexibility from some of our outer boroughs here. The cost of construction needs density, and we need to find a way to balance those.

Ben: 24:09

When I look at what we've got in front of us five or six years ahead of us, I think looking at some of the town centers that the county executive has proposed, I'd love to see those come off and really nail the landing on those good mixed use development. We've got a great blueprint here. We've got great villages in Onondaga County. If we could reinforce those villages with more housing, a little bit more density, I think that increases the viability of businesses on the first floor. So I think really looking at that, and then as we develop new town centers, I think Great Northern Mall will be a good litmus test as that comes off. And then just some of the other sites around the county, those we have the ability to create places, and that's what I all hope we keep our eye on. It can't all be single family homes, and you need great places if you live in a single-family home. And there's nothing wrong with that. I live in a single family home. You need places to go, and you need good, walkable areas to go that make things interesting. Why is the Village of Liverpool interesting? You've got a lake. You've got a great library. You've got great restaurants and bars, like why is Skaneateles great? You've got a great lake. You've got... Ryan: But they're also walkable. Ben: Yeah. And those are things that are great. The Dickens Christmas goes off without a hitch because it's a great walkable village.

Ryan: 25:36

Yeah. I always actually equivocate Syracuse to Montreal as an example. So why does Montreal get just as cold as we are? Comparable amounts of snow, but it's hip. It's awesome. It's beautiful, right? So there's nothing from a weather perspective to say that we can't be those things, but we need density. We need walkability. We need some of those things. That's my optimism.

Katie: 25:55

Well, Ryan, Ben, thank you both so much for being here today. It was a great conversation.

Ryan and Ben: 25:58

Thank you. Thanks for having us. CenterState CEO's podcast Talk CNY, presented by NBT Bank, is available on all major podcast platforms or centerstateceo.com. Additional content and clips can be seen across CenterState CEO's social media channels. For new episode reminders, be sure to subscribe in your favorite podcast listening app, and don't forget to leave a quick review or five-star rating. Thanks for listening to Talk CNY, presented by NBT Bank.