Managing the White-Collar/Blue-Collar Divide with Josh Zolin

In this episode of The Better Leadership Team Show, I sit down with Josh Zolin, entrepreneur, keynote speaker, founder of BITNW Academy, and author of Blue Is the New White, to talk about one of the biggest leadership challenges many organizations face today: the divide between white-collar leadership and blue-collar frontline teams.

We discuss why so many office leaders unintentionally lose credibility with field employees, how assumptions create resentment, and why respect is built through curiosity, transparency, and shared experience. Josh shares lessons from scaling a service business, leading technicians in the field, and helping companies create stronger cultures through better communication and leadership development.

We also dive into financial transparency, leadership coaching, investing in employees, and why the future of the skilled trades deserves far more attention and respect than it often receives.

If your organization has office teams, field teams, operations staff, technicians, drivers, or frontline employees, this conversation offers practical ways to close communication gaps and build a healthier, more unified culture.

Thanks for listening! Connect with us at mike-goldman.com/blog and on Instagram@mikegoldmancoach and on YouTube @Mikegoldmancoach

Transcript

‌Intro

Josh 0:02

so that causes this chasm, this deep trench between the office and field that sometimes can be very difficult to close. And you know what, the answer to that is being humbled. And getting out there and working alongside these people and seeing what they go through. Listen, Mike, I run a commercial HVAC business in Phoenix, Arizona in the summertime. These rooftops get up to 150, 160 degrees. I have technicians up there changing compressors. Sometimes they're up there for eight hours. Like, take an office person. A dispatcher or you know, a warehouse worker even, or somebody in the parts department, wherever, put 'em up on that roof for eight hours and then tell 'em to give directive. It's a different, it's a different story.

Mike Goldman 0:55

You made it to the better leadership team show, the place where you learn how to surround yourself with the right people, doing the right things. So you can grow your business without losing your mind. I'm your host and leadership team coach, Mike Goldman. I'm going to show you how to improve top and bottom line growth, fulfillment, and the value your company adds to the world by building a better leadership team. All right, let's go.

Mike 1:27

Josh Zolin is a former stuntman turned nationally recognized entrepreneur, keynote speaker, and founder of BITNW Academy. He became CEO of Windy City equipment at 27 and scaled it to over 12 million in revenue landing on the Inc 5,000 list. Multiple years running. That's not easy to do. Josh is the author of Blue Is the New White Now adopted in over 100 high schools and host of the Everything They Don't Tell You podcast. With over 200 episodes, through BITNW Academy, he equips blue collar teams with the leadership and life skills. They were never taught. And today we're gonna talk about how to lead blue collar teams and that sometimes divide between the white collar and the blue collar. Josh, welcome to the show.

Josh 2:20

Mike, thank you so much for having me. I have been looking forward to this conversation all weekend.

Mike 2:27

I'm looking forward to it too, and partially because I've got two clients right now who are really having this white collar. To blue collar Challenge, and I have a buddy, I was just talking to another coach that has gotta do a session with a whole bunch of blue collar, middle, you know, middle management leaders. And I said, great, I'm having a podcast. I'll get you the recording as soon as we're done. So I'm gonna help my buddy and help me. And as always, this is about me getting some free coaching. I'll be taking notes,

Leadership Team Trait

Mike 2:57

throughout. but Josh, as I always ask first question. From all of your experience, what do you believe is the most important characteristic of a great leadership team?

Josh 3:11

Healthy disagreement with the drive to succeed. I can explain further if you'd like.

Mike 3:17

Yeah, go to it. I love it.

Josh 3:19

So you know, I'll speak from my own experience. My own experience was that of building a leadership team that comprised of people that I really liked, that I got along really well with, and that I thought together with our like-mindedness, we were gonna take the company to the moon. Didn't take long to realize that when you have a group of people who think alike. Proper resolution takes that much longer to get to because there's nobody rebutting the things that may not work. And so this is lived experience for me. I had to tear down my entire leadership team and rebuild it from the ground up. And when I did that, I made a point to make sure that they had two things. Number one, an element of candor, right? Truth telling, making sure that they could tell each other, and most, most importantly, me the truth. And number two. That they all had a strong desire to get to where we wanted to go with those two things. I could take the company anywhere.

Mike 4:21

So important. The desire is such an important part. Everybody talks about how conflict is healthy and it is. But if that conflict is about you winning the argument versus conflict about how do we take the next step as a company and let's try to find, let's try to uncover the information we need to make the best decision we can moving forward, if that's the goal, versus winning the argument that then conflict is really healthy. So I love that.

Stuntman to Trades

Mike 4:49

before we, we dive in to what I really want to talk about, I've gotta ask how does someone go from stunt man to entrepreneur? tell me a little bit about what life looked like as a stunt man, and why make that, that, that leap, I guess, no pun intended.

Josh 5:05

Yeah, I'll give you the, the elevator pitch version, so. Stunts was the original family business. It was not entrepreneurship. It was not turning wrenches. It was not any of that. It was jumping off buildings getting blown up, rolling over cars and being set on fire. My grandfather was a stunt man. My mom was a stunt woman. My dad was a stunt man. All my uncles were stunt men. This was. In my blood. So I've been jumping off buildings since I was five years old. And, because of that I thought I had my path set. I thought I knew exactly where I was going. I was very vocal in high school about, Hey, I'm not going to college. I don't need college. I'm gonna be a stunt man. I'm gonna be the best stunt man you've ever seen. And that's exactly what I did. So I, moved out to Hollywood, 'cause I was living in Wisconsin at the time. I moved out to Hollywood and pursued my. Dream of being a stuntman. And it didn't take me long to realize that, number one, it hurt, and number two, what it really meant was that you were less important than the people that everybody else loved, right? when you're doubling an actor, you're there strictly so that actor doesn't get hurt. And if there is a problem, it's you. The problem is with you. And that didn't resonate with me. So after a couple of years in the stunt business, I, I took a step back, had a bit of an identity crisis. 'cause that's all I knew growing up. That was who I was. I mean, my license plate on my first car said J stunts for God's sake. And, and you know, that's what. made me cool or so I thought it was just my ego, but I didn't know that at the time. Meanwhile, my dad had gotten out of the stump business previously, started fixing restaurant equipment, and so I called him up and I said, dad, I have no idea what you do for a living, but I'd like to come out and learn the trade. That's exactly what I did. Those who know my dad know that he is a very old school individual. There was no silver spoons, there was no riding coattails. There was no, here have this, you know, it was, earn your way every step of the way. And that's exactly what I did.

From Tech to CEO

Mike 7:15

So you, and then you went from kind of working in the field, you, you became a CEO at 27.

Josh 7:21

That's correct. So I, I started. In the field at about 21 years old after I got outta the stunt business, about 21 years old. turning wrenches and actually in the kitchens of commercial restaurants, things like that. fixing the fryers, ovens, stoves. That's what my dad did. That's what he taught me how to do. And and so that's what I did for a long time. And it was just me and him running service for probably the first six years. And then. He said something very important to me after I told him I wanted to grow the business. He said, fine, you deal with the people. And so that's exactly what I did. and again, I didn't have a college education, so I got my hands on anything that I could read. I, I approached anybody that had done it before, you know, and I just consumed everything that I possibly could about. The industry and learning how to do this beyond turning the wrenches, because my dad will be the first to tell you he's a mechanic. He's not a businessman. So at that point, I understood that the growth of the business was on me. By the age of 27, I had. and I wanna clarify too, when I say CEO, I was one of those CEOs that was still in and out of the field. We were still a small business at that point, probably about five or six of us at the time. So although I was a CEO, I was a working CEO alongside my technicians in the field.

Respect and Questions

Mike 8:52

How did the fact that you started off in the field, the fact that even as CEO, you were still working in the field, how did that, when you think about how you lead teams today and how you coach others and help others to lead teams, how did that experience. Early on shape the way you lead blue collar teams.

Josh 9:16

great question. So there's a couple of ways. Number one. Is respect. Okay. there's a big difference, especially in the blue collar space, about of somebody who comes in and says, I know how to do it. Between somebody who comes in and says, I've done it. Both can succeed, but they have to succeed in different ways. I chose the route that I've. Done it. And also Mike, it does not mean that I was the best at it either. It just means that I had an appreciation for what my team went through on a day-to-day basis out there on the front lines, because I've done that work myself. So I think that's a big part of it. The other that, you know, can succeed as well, so long as they're open, upfront and transparent about not having that experience and then making an effort to ride alongside those frontline employees. So whether that's in a blue collar space or the white collar space, actually sitting side by side with those that you wanna lead to understand exactly what it is that they do and how the, how they do it. I just happened to have that experience before stepping into the field. That was number one. Number two is I was young, right? I was 27 years old. Clearly, I knew it all clearly. I knew everything. and I could lead the largest or the smallest team, better than anybody else on the planet. Not really, right? And so I learned quickly that, especially as a young leader, my directives didn't mean much. Telling people what to do did not necessarily get them to do it. And that was a really big struggle for me because how else was I supposed to get people to do things that I knew I needed from them in order to grow the company? And the answer was asking them questions. Which is a big portion of my leadership style today, and it's a big portion of my coaching style. I have a phrase that I like to say, and it's people accept what they conclude and they resist what they're told. So if you can ask questions and I ask two very specific types of questions, curious questions, and thought provoking questions, if you can ask those questions efficiently. Accurately and deploy them with a certain amount of empathy and understanding, then you can help people help themselves that much quicker than if you were to just tell them what to do.

White Collar Mistakes

Mike 11:42

What do most, you know, very often. The folks leading blue collar workers may be more white collar workers. And I, you know, I'm sure there's a gray collared worker somewhere in between there. And I'm just being a little bit more extreme to make a point, but I've got a couple of clients where you've got, you know, a bunch of. Office, white collar workers that are, you know, leading a bunch of drivers out in the field. in one case. In another case, it's the folks back in the office that are leading, folks that are literally drilling into the ground and digging ditches. So what is it that most white collar leaders get fundamentally wrong when they're leading a blue collar team?

Josh 12:33

The fact that they think they know everything that goes on in the field, and even if they say that they don't think that way. Their actions usually speak otherwise because there is a lot of directive, a lot of do this, a lot of do that, right? This is how we need to implement this procedure. This is how you need to report back. This is how you need to write your notes. Notes. This is how you need to communicate in the hierarchy and to your supervisor, and this is what you need to do when you're in front of a customer. This is what you need to do when you're in front of the piece of equipment. There's a lot of do this. And then that will happen. The problem with that is that there are so many nuances when you talk about field work and field service, and I don't care if it's drills, drivers or turning wrenches or rooftops or whatever it is, there's so much that happens out there that is unforeseen that you can't plan for in the traditional sense. And so without that proper understanding from the back office or the leadership team or whoever it may be, giving these directives. Something is gonna get lost. The gap is gonna become too wide, and that's where you lose respect to the front line because you're trying to implement processes, systems, and procedures that don't work in the real world.

Closing the Gap

Mike 13:51

So let's talk about how you fill that gap, how you handle that gap. Because very often, even if you've got, you know, the senior leaders back in the office who are, you know, leading this team of drivers or people turning wrenches or drilling holes, they at some point. 15 years ago, they may have been the one driving the truck or turning the wrench. But it's been a long time since then. and to your point, you know, they have a tendency, and I've seen it too, as you just said, they might oversimplify, you know, oh, you know, drivers, they just need to do this, you know, and, you know, and so, so the fact that they might oversimplify. Like, how do you, and maybe it comes back to the questions you talked about, it may come back to the respect to say, Hey, maybe these drivers have some knowledge we don't have. But how do you fill that gap of a senior leadership team That of course does need to try to set some standards and goals and targets and processes that the drivers of the blue collar folks out in the field might shake their heads and go. They really don't get it. They don't get what the day really looks like here. how do you fill that gap?

Josh 15:07

Well, there's a couple of ways. It starts with culture, right? We have a value of one team, which means that we act as a cohesive unit, not only with ourselves, but with our clients and with our vendors as well. The second part, and then that's the foundation, right? You need to have the entire team understand that we're working together toward a shared mutual cause. The second thing is questions, right? Being able to be curious about what happens out there, right to, to ask clarifying questions. Hey, help me understand what this looks like and what is, what does that look like? And what happens when you do this and where, what do you see when you're in this area? You know, those are all curious questions and they help anybody asking them, gain an understanding of what happens when the person that they're asking experiences those things. The thought provoking questions are more of the leadership style, and that's kind of. Trying to get people to think differently, but this case is really a good use case for the curious questions. The third thing is get out there, get the hell out there with your team, and I'm a big fan of this, of cross pollination. So not only should the office folks. Make time, carve out time to go out and work side by side with those in the field so they can actually get perspective, like true perspective of all the different variables that happens and that goes on. and I will tell you that will close that gap faster than anything else because even questions are conceptual, even questions. Leave room for more questions and lack of understanding, and I'll take it a step further and I would even encourage those on the front line. work alongside those in the office as well. That's where this one team comes in, right? Because this is not a one-way street. And if you can have a full understanding of what each of these positions does on a day-to-day basis, the communication between both of them skyrockets.

Mike 16:58

I think that's where in, in addition to what you're saying, that's where a lot of respect come from, comes from or can come from. And here's what I mean by that. Years ago I worked for. A woman's footwear and accessories company back in, in the mid nineties and I was on the office side, but the warehouse of all the footwear and handbags and all that stuff was attached to the office and twice a year was physical inventory time. Physical inventory time. The office folks had to take the full day out of the office, go back and work in the warehouse with the warehouse workers to count all the boxes of stuff that we had and like. I'll be honest, throughout the year, we never thought much about the warehouse folks unless shipments weren't getting out on time. Then we thought about the warehouse folks a lot. But those days when we went back and had to spend a full day working with them, we, you know, It caused me to have a level of respect for the work they do. The work they did was hard, and by hard, I don't just mean the physical labor, like there was a whole different way of thinking out there. And very often, you know, when you are in the office and there's folks working in the warehouse, there's a level of, well, you know, we, we think at this level and they think at this level and you realize it's just not true.

Josh 18:24

Mm-hmm.

Mike 18:24

days are very different. You're thinking about different things. I remember working for about probably 20 minutes and I wouldn't look at my watch and I'd look and go, man, it's gotta be like three hours. We gotta be getting close to lunch. And I would think it's three hours. And I would look at my watch. And maybe we were working for 20 minutes and I was like, oh my God, how do these guys do this all day? But so you learn a lot. You can question, but it caused me to have such a greater level of respect for the work they did that, you know, and that's a big piece. That's a big

Us Versus Them

Mike 18:59

piece. what else do you see? Like so often I see an us versus them. Tension between the field and the office. So the blue collar and the white collar. in, in your experience, where does that us versus them almost animosity sometimes, where does that come from and who's responsibility is it to fix it?

Josh 19:22

Yeah, it's a great question and we've seen it too. This is where the value of one team becomes so powerful, right? And that's what we found in the organization and that's one of the reasons why we implemented. This value because we found this separation was detrimental to the health of the business, right. the office versus field. and you know what, it gets a lot of, it's almost a stereotype today in the blue collar skilled trades. Right? and so we see it a lot, but it is, it, it can be. It can be very difficult to pull out of. I think it goes back to kind of what we were talking about, but here's where it comes from. It comes from that lack of respect, that lack of understanding the assumptions, right? And so to, to not. Reiterate the things that we've said, I'll put it into a different term. When you have the lack of respect and you have the lack of understanding, your brain automatically fills in those gaps that you were talking about, right? And then when you try to fill in those gaps without the knowledge needed to actually do it, then it. Causes assumptions, and then you start to assume what the field is seeing, what the field is doing, what the field is feeling. And the second that you do that, you lose respect because number one, they know that you don't know anything about it. And number two, they don't like being told. How they should feel or how they should approach a situation when they're the experts out there doing the work with their own two hands, right? And that just so that causes this chasm, this deep trench between the office and field that sometimes can be very difficult to close. And you know what, the answer to that is being humbled. And getting out there and working alongside these people and seeing what they go through. Listen, Mike, I run a commercial HVAC business in Phoenix, Arizona in the summertime. These rooftops get up to 150, 160 degrees. I have technicians up there changing compressors. Sometimes they're up there for eight hours. Like, take an office person. A dispatcher or you know, a warehouse worker even, or a, a, somebody in the parts department, wherever, put 'em up on that roof for eight hours and then tell 'em to give directive. It's a different, it's a different story.

Mike 21:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Sharing Strategy

Mike 21:44

One, one real situation. So. Very often I'm working with senior leadership teams and working with them to create vision and strategy and what are the priorities for the year, priorities for the quarter. What do you, I've heard some very different arguments about sharing that kind of stuff. Out with the field, it may be more than sharing and getting feedback. Maybe. Maybe I'm answering my own question to agree. It's not just sharing, it's getting feedback, it's asking questions, but very often I will hear from the quote unquote, office folks, from the senior leadership team like. You know, let's not waste their time and go share that. Like, thi this driver, he just wants to drive his truck and get home on time and do thi like there's an assumption they just wanna do this. They don't care and they don't need to know what big company strategy is. Which, as I'm saying, it sounds like a perfect example of disrespect, but help me with how leaders should think about that.

Josh 22:45

Yeah, I think that's a great point to bring up and I would absolutely challenge it. Actually, I would call complete BS on it. You don't know what somebody values, you don't know what somebody needs to know, wants to know, or anything. and that's how you create disconnect. That's how you create. people who just want jobs versus people who want careers, right? You completely exclude them from any decision making strategy or glimpse into what their impact is on a day-to-day basis on the company that they're trying to grow. And so this is actually one of the things that we teach in BIT New Academy, right? and there's this level of transparency that once you can place it. Once you can walk the line between discretion and transparency and then place that in front of your frontline workforce, middle management, executive team, everybody from the top to the bottom, there's a power that comes from that. And you can feel the seismic shift in your own organization when it starts to take hold. But really it is. There is a fine line because there are some things that you don't want to share. And I'll come out and say that right, there are some things that are reserved for the executive team and that's just the way the businesses work. So as long as we can all understand and agree on that, you know, that's the first level of respect. Call it out. There's gonna be some shit that you're just not gonna see. But the things that you can put in front of your team are wildly misunderstood and I believe underrepresented. So. Lemme give you an example. Financial strategy, okay? There's a huge. Aversion to sharing any kind of finances as the executive team or leadership team with the rest of the organization. And the fear comes in of, well, if they know, about the money, they're gonna ask for more money, or they're gonna ask for a raise, or, you know, if they knew this, then they're not gonna, they're gonna think that we're a greedy corporation, you know, because there's this lack of understanding of where the money goes. And that's the. Part that most people miss. And so, because I'll challenge, you know, most of the businesses out there, small, mid, or large, like even the end profitability. Is misunderstood. And that's the number you usually don't share with the rest of the organization is that net profitability, right? but gross profitability all day long because then you can explain where all of that money goes and how it goes back into the organization to make it better. And then really the trick with net is how much of it is being reinvested. That's really what people want to know. So to tie this all back. There is so much benefit to sharing strategies specifically in this example, financial strategy with your frontline. If you can help them understand how their impact on a day-to-day basis affects the bottom line of the organization, and then in turn how that actually affects them and their career. It's no secret the more valuable, or the more, an employee produces the more valuable they are. Right? That's just the way business works. And so if you're open and honest and upfront about that, and then you can actually map it out and show them how their actions impact that bottom line, they're more apt to work for you to work for the organization to row in the direction that you want them to row and that you're saying everybody should row. Just show them how, give them the why and tie it back to. But I like to call with them you a phrase. I'm sure you've heard before, what's in it for me? That's the part most people miss. You have to let them know how it benefits them.

Mike 26:33

Yeah and it's interesting those folks you know back to the financial transparency people are afraid to share that net profit number I actually think that's the most important number to share in a lot of cases, because what people don't understand, you know, there are, you know, most people out there in the world have no idea how to read a profit and loss statement. and there, by the way, there are people on a senior leadership team that don't know how to lead it. They're just embarrassed to admit to that. But people that don't understand that if they. Hear from somewhere from senior leadership. You know, you know, we are, you know, our goal as a company is $50 million in revenue this year. Like people that, that really don't understand business real well hear 50 million and think the owner. Might be pocketing $30 million at the end of the year. They have no idea that healthy profitability may be 10 or 15%. And then a good portion of that, to your point early, is being reinvested back in the business. I actually get the opposite. Most often. I hear people say, oh crap. That's all it is. Now we understand. Now we understand why we're being asked to do these different things, and they feel like they can take ownership o of it. But I think a lot of that, the financial transparency, taking ownership of it, that comes with an investment. In making sure these folks understand what gross margin is versus net profit, what does revenue really mean? You know, understand the strategy of the company, understand what ownership mentality means. And I know that's a lot of what you do in, in, in the BIT New Academy is invest and, you know, and do a lot of that training and that teaching help.

Investing in People

Mike 28:23

Help me understand, you know, and help leaders listening understand, you know, what happens to a team's culture, to a team's performance when you actually invest in these people, it's the, oh, they're, as long as they're driving the truck, I'm good. As long as they're digging ditches, I'm good. How should we be thinking as leaders of investing in these people and what's the return we get from that investment?

Josh 28:48

Yeah, I'll turn back to a quote that I love. I don't know who said it, but you'll be familiar with it when I say it, but it's what if we invest. In our team and they leave. And then the rebuttal, what if we don't and they stay. It's so true. It's simple, Mike, but it's so true. and I wanna start with the fear. I think, and especially in the blue collar space, and this is what I've seen and I've talked to hundreds or thousands of companies all over the country now, but the fear is if we teach too much, they're gonna leave and they're gonna start their own business. I've seen this time and time again. There's this reservation, keep your cards close to their, to your chest. They said, you know, and it creates this, it creates the lack of understanding the. unwillingness to, to row in the same direction the, aversion to following the company values. I mean, our whole business is at stake because we're afraid that one of our employees is gonna go start their own business, right? And so my experience has been much different. I eliminate that fear right away, and I say, okay, if you wanna go start your own business, I'm gonna help you. And one of two things happens, and I wanna start with this, Mike, because I want to eliminate people's fear, or at least, you know, try to chip away at it. One of two things happens. Number one, you, they leave, you help them start their business, they succeed. Now they're wildly grateful, right? And they will do anything. They will burn bridges for you, right? and sometimes you share customers, sometimes you share strategies, but you work cohesively. You grow together. unless you were a real jerk of a boss. Right. Which I can't tell you if you are, you're not. But if you're a real jerk of a boss, maybe that, that, experience is different. But if you were a jerk, you probably wouldn't help. Help them start their business. Right. And so I love having an army of people out there with businesses that say, thank you, Josh, for everything that you've done for me. I couldn't achieve the level of success today without your guidance. Like, that lights me up, Mike, and that is far and away better than anything they could have done on my team is to just get that, that thank you from them for what they're doing for their themselves, their team, and their family.

Mike 31:02

and by the way, I think it, I love what you're saying and it's more than the thank you. If you start to build a reputation as a place people go to grow and look how they've grown. And God, these guys are. So amazing that they even help people grow. When it's time to grow outside the company, they're there to support 'em. Now you become a talent magnet for the best people.

Josh 31:25

Absolutely. that's an incredible point. The second thing that happens, Mike, is that the, you help 'em and the company doesn't succeed. Their company fails, which I've had a handful of that. Those happen as well, but what tends to follow that is that those employees come back. As long as you didn't burn that bridge, those come back to you. And now they're coming back with a new fire under their belt because holy crap, their boss not only helped them start their business, supported them through the failure of the business, but brought them back in as an employee at the company they were working at prior. Now they will move heaven and earth. To make sure that the company they're working for today succeeds. So this is like the element, this is the actuality, this is what happens, but I want people to know those are the two things that happen, but they only happen if you support when somebody leaves to start their own business, not if you condemn them for it. Right? And then so, moving up from there, actually, I forgot the original question.

Mike 32:29

I don't know, but

Josh 32:29

it was so, you know, this point is so important.

Mike 32:32

were talking about, we were talking about the return on investment of actually investing in these folks.

Josh 32:36

yeah. Absolutely. And so, so those who do stay and those who don't go right, the growth that, that they feel inside the organization can't. It can't be overstated how important that is. Right? Especially if you are an organization that values growth as a company, you're gonna be comprised of people who value growth themselves. And so the more they know how to do, not only from a business standpoint, but also from a. Soft skill standpoint, like a personal standpoint, transferable skills, leadership skills. Right. the more they're gonna be able to move the needle for you. I had somebody recently on my podcast, his name was Brian Gottlieb, and he wrote the book Beyond the Hammer, great book. And he said to me, he goes, Josh, you reach a certain point in your organization where you have to become a training organization. The entire intent, the entire, if you're trying to scale. You need to have systems, processes, and procedures in place to train your people on everything. They're ready to be thrust into a role that you never knew you needed. Because as the company grows, there's gonna be different positions that come available and you're gonna want to promote from within, right? That's always a better option than going outside, at least from a culture and teamwork. And you know, one team standpoint, you want the people who are already evangelists for your corporation, who are already trusting of you to be in the positions necessary to help it grow. So. To pour into your team and to create, you know, these procedures for training. I mean, I don't know how the ROI is measured, Mike. It is, it's immense. It's, it cannot be, overstated how important this is for the company.

Fixing the Divide

Mike 34:33

I wanna get back to this divide between blue collar and white collar and, you know, for the CEO or senior leader right now, who knows there's a divide, but they don't. Where to start, you know, how do I fix this problem that I've got? and I don't know, Josh, whether this is gonna be a new idea we haven't talked about or just kind of repeating and highlighting an old one. Either one is fine, but where do they start? what's the one conversation they need to have? What's the one thing they need to do that they may have been avoiding that's just a place for them to start breaking down that divide.

Josh 35:11

I think the first and foremost is to be entirely honest and transparent with themselves. You know it all, it always starts with us, right? And, if you've created a culture or you've inherited a culture that has this divide, you have to first look in the mirror and ask yourself what you've been allowing, right? And that is wildly important because you get what you tolerate. Full stop, end sentence. You get what you tolerate. The more you tolerate it, the more you'll get of it. And so if you've been, here's an example. If you were previously a technician in the field, and this is the way that your culture operated when you were a technician, maybe it's all you know, how have you been reinforcing this without. Even realizing it. Have you been laughing at the jokes that each one makes, you know, toward the other department? Have you been, you know, sharing the memes that come across social media, or have you just been ignoring, you know, the conflicts that happen and that come up? None of them are good. Right. And that's all things that we're tolerating. So step one is really understanding yourself and what you've been allowing in your own company. Then once you identify that, then you have to have the hard conversations one at a time. When you try to tell everybody something, nobody hears it. So the best way to tell anybody anything is to do it face to face, one at a time. That's the difference between leading and coaching, by the way, is, telling everybody something or telling one person something. And so it is imperative that you catch it as soon as it happens or when you notice it happen, you address it immediately, right? it. It loses impact the longer you wait to have the discussion. Avoidance of a problem only enhances the problem. So I would say first look at yourself, understand what it is that you've been allowing in your own organization, and then as you recognize those things that you shouldn't be allowing, you have those conversations immediately with whoever. You notice, right? And you always coach the person in front of you. So if that means talking to the person in the office about how they were, assuming the field operated or talking to the field about mouthing off to the office, you always coach the person right in front of you. If they try to bring up the other, you say, I'll deal with them right now, I'm talking to you, and then you coach what they need to hear.

Future of Trades

Mike 37:52

Your book is being adopted in high schools across the country, you know, helping those young folks, see the. Trades differently than maybe they saw them before. Given you know, what we're talking about. And frankly, given the environment right now where AI is coming in and more, more so gobbling up the white collar jobs, not the blue collar jobs until, I guess, until the robots get a lot better than they are right now. but what needs to shift in how. Not only for kids, how people, how businesses, are thinking about blue collar careers. How does that, how should that all shift from the way most think about it?

Josh 38:39

I think we're seeing a shift, so I'll start there, which is good. But I think the, that the biggest shift that can happen is that people understand what the trades are truly responsible for. Listen, you can't throw a rock in this world without hitting something that's a result of the skilled trades, at least if you live in an urban area. Right. I'm talking about the sidewalks, the lampposts, the, even the grass in urban areas was planted by landscapers blue collar, skilled trades. Right? and even if I'm sitting in this office right now and. You know, the walls, the floor, the insulation, the electrical, everything's a result of the skilled trade. So I like to say that kids these days, they want to change the world. I hear this all the time. They want to change the world. Yet we are hesitant to introduce them to the industries that actually shape it. It actually shapes civilization as we see it today. So I think there's just a perspective shift that needs to happen, that the influence that you can have on the entire world is that much greater when you learn how to use your hands correctly to build and fix things.

Mike 39:55

Beautiful. Beautiful. I now, I have no idea how to use my hands to fix anything. I told my wife, this I'm getting really into vibe coding with ai, and I said, most guys have, like, they're woodworking in their garage or they're working on their car. And for me it's going down in my office and vibe coding. That's my idea of the, the workshop. but whatever works, it's a hobby.

Where to Learn More

Mike 40:16

Josh, this was so. Super helpful. I know everything you said was helpful for me and how I think about this stuff, so I know it's gonna be helpful for the folks listening as well. If people want more of what you do, wanna learn more about what you do, how you help folks. Your academy, where should people go to find out more?

Josh 40:35

Yeah, so I'll make it really easy. It's josh zolin.com, JOSHZOLIN.com. There you can find my main business, which is Windy City Equipment, BIT New Academy. You can find the book, you can find the podcast, and if I could just talk about the podcast for two seconds. This is my passion project. This is what lights me up, right? I have had this podcast, or a podcast for the last six years, started as Blue is The New White, which was an advocacy podcast for the blue collar skilled trades eventually evolved into what it is today because I found the biggest thing in myself was. As a high performer, somebody with lofty goals and high ambition that I couldn't achieve what I wanted to achieve without becoming the person capable of actually doing it. And those are two different games, right? Moving towards a goal and being the person who can. And that's why this podcast exists today. And we talked to some wildly notable people, who have either lived it, written about it, coached on it. And everything in between. So if you're looking to be the person capable of achieving the success that you dream about, check out the podcast. Everything they Don't Tell you can also find that at JoshZolin.com.

Mike 41:50

Excellent. Excellent. Well, Josh, you know, I always say if you want a great company, you need a great leadership team. Thanks so much for helping us get there today.

Josh 42:00

Thanks, Mike. I appreciate the time man.