Conversation 38 - From High Control to Healing: Navigating Cultic Trauma

Certainty can feel like safety, especially when life hurts. Our conversation with Laura Dunson Caputo, an assistant professor and trauma counselor, and Alexis Gilan, a newly licensed clinician whose research centers on cultic dynamics, digs into how high-control groups trade belonging for obedience and why that bargain is so hard to recognize from the inside. Rather than chasing sensational headlines, we map the real mechanics: centralized, unquestionable authority, conditional acceptance, and morality framed in stark binaries that erode agency and redefine identity from the outside in.

We walk through the subtle ways this trauma shows up after someone leaves. Hierarchies can feel comfortingly familiar, fawn responses masquerade as “being good,” and choices feel threatening instead of freeing. We talk about the nonlinearity of healing—waves of clarity and doubt—and why quick fixes and premature forgiveness are just another form of pressure. For clinicians, we unpack blind spots from religious socialization to cultural normalization, plus the risk of turning therapy into a new control system. Practical steps include explicit consent and transparency, curiosity-driven questions, and motivational interviewing skills that avoid rescuing and return power to the client.

You’ll also hear concrete signs to watch for—needing permission to attend sessions, access restrictions, obedience language, moral rigidity, and diffuse trauma without a single precipitating event—along with the growing role of social media, Discord, and YouTube in modern recruitment. We highlight creative modalities like art therapy and the therapeutic relationship as a safe lab where clients practice saying no, disagreeing, and staying in connection. Beyond the therapy room, we challenge hyper‑individualism and make the case for community care that offers belonging without coercion.

If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave a review to help more listeners find thoughtful guidance on cultic trauma, ethical care, and rebuilding agency.

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Created by the OCA's Media, Public Relations, and Membership (MPRM) Committee & its Podcast Subcommittee

·Hosted by Victoria Frazier

·Pre-Production & Coordination by Marisa Cargill & Victoria Frazier

·Editing by Marisa Cargill

·Original music selections by Elijah Satoru Wood

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:41

All right. Hi. We are here with Laura and Alexis. And we're so excited to have you on the podcast today. This is a topic I've been really excited about since I saw your presentation at the All Ohio Counselors Conference. And so I'm going to give you both the runway to introduce yourselves a little bit, and then we will get into this really exciting topic.

unknown 1:05

Okay.

Why High‑Control Trauma Matters

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Thank you so much. Hi, my name is Alexis. Recently in December, I just graduated from John Carroll's Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program with a Masters of Art Clinical Mental Health Counseling. I just received my LPC, so I'm a licensed professional counselor in the state of Ohio, working on getting my license independent chemical dependency counseling license approved. But I'm currently in private practice and happen for about a year, a little over a year now. And this has been a really big passion project of mine. I actually developed it in Laura's research methods class. And I'm excited to excited to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

We're so excited to have you. We love having such a variety of perspectives and levels of experience on the podcast. And so I'm really happy to have someone so passionate and new to the field. I say as someone who's relatively new to the field as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Awesome. Yeah, I want to echo just thank you so much for having us. This is such an exciting topic. And when Alexis, you know, brought this up in our research class, I was just so moved and so pumped about jumping on board. Yeah, so my name is Laura. I am an assistant professor at practice at John Carroll University. I'm also a counselor and I've been a counselor for, gosh, I'm like nearing the 10-year mark. So it's it feels like it's been a minute. I have a private practice that specializes in trauma and grief, as well as neurodivergence and LGBTQ issues. And so just a small little practice, but you know, we're wrestling with a lot of topics that I think are similar to what we'll talk about today. And then I also am a researcher. I research a lot around power dynamics, especially the experience of uh trauma survivors and how they experience power. Alexis and I also have some shared background in religious studies. And so I think that I don't want to speak for you, Alexis, but I found that our conversations have continued to unfold like more and more common ground and more and more of like, oh, this is like the natural arrival for us coming to this topic.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree.

Defining Cultic Power And Control

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I am so excited to have you both. I think that cult now and kind of always have been such a buzzword for people. And when I know me as a counselor and some of my friends, when we hear the phrase cultic trauma, some people can picture really extreme or sensational examples of that, just with, you know, true crime documentaries blowing up so much in recent years. How do you define cultic or high control religious trauma in a way that reflects the experiences that clients are actually bringing into counseling spaces?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah. So I really appreciate this question because what you're saying is very true in terms of it being sensationalized, true crime documentaries. Well, and that does portray accuracy of some right, religious control, highly controlled groups in regards to religion, right? We can also go into political, there's there's a lot of different meanings. So besides looking at, I guess, like the extremist or extremeness of a group, more so defined by like power dynamics, right? So how is power, hard power dynamics kind of structured, and then how agency is kind of controlled in a group, right? So cultic or high control religious trauma kind of emerges when like belonging, safety, and salvation are conditional and obedience. Usually have one leader. Sometimes in organizations, too, it can be multiple people. Sometimes there can be, right? A God tied into that as well, or not. Authority is very centralized, right? And unquestionable. You are not questioning authority, you're not questioning the practices, the faith, etc. I think also we can kind of see a lot of kind of guilt or a lot of like internal self, like morality, right? So leaving this group is gonna cause things like failure, danger, betrayal. You know, so being in a cult too, I always want to emphasize it doesn't always mean that people are living together in like a commune, right? Like now, especially now, cults have kind of emerged too, right? Like social media, chat rooms, right? So there's a lot of different kinds of umbrellas that it falls under. But really, what we're looking for in that definition is kind of that power dynamic, right? An identity. Idently, identity is right, externally defined by this organization. Everything that I do is defined by this, right, rather than internally formed. Because clients are really gonna come to counseling session and say, I was in a cult, right? I have never really heard that when I've worked with folks who are in high control groups. Um, right. So chronic shame, fear of thinking about it for themselves, difficulty trusting their own perceptions. These are kind of some I some criteria that you'll start to see. Grief or loss for the community, right? But again, these power dynamics are very, very strong, right? Sense of identity's lost, and it's all put into this group.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Thank you. That was so insightful. I think, yeah, what based on just my experience, that is so in line with the the things I've seen, but also I can imagine that smaller or like more nef, I don't know, nefarious seems like the wrong word, but just like less well-known high control groups would definitely slip clients' notice, right? How do you see these dynamics show up later in clients' relationships? I'm imagining most of the time when we're seeing people come into a healing space like counseling, we're ready to make some changes, or at least we're starting to think about that. How do we look out for this in their sense of self, nervous system responses, and and their new relationships? Because I have to imagine that is pretty skewed after their experiences.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah, absolutely. I I think that, you know, like all forms of trauma, this can really look different for every person. But that being said, I think there are some kind of trends that might be kind of through one for a lot of folks. Trauma just has this way of making itself at home in our lives, right? It can come in and it feels familiar, it feels safe, it feels recognizable. And I think similarly, people who have those experiences with cultic trauma, things like hierarchies, things like loss of autonomy, things like rigidity, things like being told how to think, even though they can feel really painful and harmful and they can feel like the cost of it, there also is something about trauma that can make them feel familiar. And so sometimes there can be this sort of back and forth tension of, you know, yes, I've left this cult, but why do I feel so frustrated at autonomy? Like, why do I feel so frustrated that somebody can't just come and take care of me? Um, or why is it that there's just this like small slight, this small thing that my boss said, and suddenly I'm flooded with emotions and I'm back to that shame, that place of shame and feeling like the person who has a little bit of power over me is, you know, absolutely ruining my life with their words. And so I think, you know, I think also culted trauma, kind of the common theme in it is that fond responses are typically involved, right? If I follow the rules, if I do what this person says, if I follow this belief system, if I avoid these habits, right? If I just make these people around me happy, then my life is good, right? And there is like a safety, there's like a learned mechanism there of this is what keeps me safe. And so I think it's not uncommon then for folks as they are living life beyond their experience of the cult is to wrestle with what that fond response looks like, to try to, you know, build a relationship with the idea of not being liked, or build a relationship with the idea of making people unhappy at times. It can be really hard and complicated. And I think that speaks even to maybe larger conversations overall about trauma, where some of the diagnoses that I think about like borderline personality disorder, which has this push-pull in relationships, you know, that characterization is barely maybe just trauma. And I think that's very similar to what folks who've experienced culted trauma can have in that push-pull.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

That's so interesting. I hadn't thought before about how regulating it must be to be told what we think and how we're supposed to respond in certain situations and how hard that must be to build a new idea of what safety looks like when our previous belief systems were unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's there's a a risk in autonomy, right? And I think that oftentimes when we are drawn to these high control groups, it is that idea that this is this is my quick fix, right? Like if, you know, if I belong with this community, if I follow this way, like I and all the pain of being human am going to be resolved. And so there is like a, there's a real grief, I think, that comes up on the other side then to have to face that like a quick fix doesn't exist. Like, you know, really sitting with whatever drew us to that cult to begin with, like those problems, those underlying concerns, those experiences are still here. And there's nobody else who can fix it for us than us. And so I think there's just so much tied up in that pain.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Absolutely. I also think, you know, when we're helping people rebuild belief systems, whether it's about themselves or about groups they've been a part of, we have to be so mindful of ourselves and our beliefs because so many counselors are raised within religious or spiritual systems. Have you noticed any blind spots or unintentional harms that other counselors or maybe even yourself, if you're feeling vulnerable today, fall into when working with religious or or cultic trauma? And how do we start to tie in our ethics and in this in that process?

Blind Spots And Ethical Pitfalls For Counselors

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, so that is really important. And I this is where kind of what you were mentioning, where like that unexamined personal history can unintentionally cause a lot of harm, right? Even when a counselor comes in, obviously with the best of intention, right? So kind of like you're talking about, many of us were raised within right religious or spiritual spiritual systems ourselves. I also want to counter that too and say some people are not raised in right spiritual settings too, right? So that can lead to when you're not raised in a spiritual setting, overclassifying maybe what may be considered a cult as well, versus kind of when we're seeing right someone who's raised within religious or spiritual systems, that's where some of like the minimizing harm because a system is right religious or it's well intended or culturally normalized could come in. Another thing I want to bring attention to, you know, within the United States is it is a very Christian-based, we have the highest amount of Christian-based people here, usually, you know what I mean? So that also falls within per se like a norm, right? So if something is without, is outside of kind of those Christian Western aspects, it could also be labeled incorrectly as a cult, too. So there's kind of both sides, right? Minimizing because, oh, it's spiritual and spirituality is healthy and it's this, it's really good, right? Not all the time when we're looking at power dynamics and cults, they use spirituality as a form of control, right? So that's where we really have to have that understanding. There can also be a tendency to then over-spiritualize recovery, right? Encouraging forgiveness, reconciliation or meaning making. And here's the key before a client has had space to fully name, you know, and process the harm, right? So kind of wanting to follow a little bit more of a trauma-informed protocol than just jumping right into here's the solution, right? You you have to forgive or you have to do this versus, but let's really explore what happened to you. You know, in our presentation, Dr. Kudo and I talked about that's one of the hardest things for clients to do within a cult is to say, what happened to me was wrong. What happened to me was this, right? So if we're starting to kind of over-spiritualize before we get there, that could be harmful too. Also we don't determine right what's what spiritual relationship the client has afterwards, right? So do they want to continue to be involved in spirituality? Are they looking to do something else, right? Kind of leaving that open for them, you know, as well, right? And not pathologizing anger, grief, rejection. Another frequent assumption is that clients need to replace their belief system in order to heal or that their trauma was a misunderstanding rather than like the result of systemic relational control. How are we psychoeducating them on what happened? That's really important too, right? So that we're not falling back into another relationship that has power control dynamics as well, right? And how are we psychoeducating in an ethical way? So this work requires a lot of self-reflection, examining your own spiritual socialization. I see even political socialization, because there are political based cults. And notice where kind of right your bias may influence how you interpret a client's story, right? Asking yourself, what do I think about spirituality? How might this affect somebody I'm working with in a high control group or in general? So, really, again, being aware, right? And at its core, this means recognizing that meaning-making systems themselves can be traumatic and that healing doesn't always involve resolution or redemption or solution. Sometimes it involves sitting with that feeling of ambiguity, grief, anger without trying to fix or reframe it. I would say, you know, if we're gonna crash down a CET, we might want to reevaluate the stance that we're taking, especially in the beginning. Cultural humility does apply here just as much as it does in any other identity-based work. So you know it's essential to do that well and to recognize, you know, power dynamics and how that functions really in society, too.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah. I was I was even thinking as you were talking, like this work requires so much learning on the part of the counselor, especially if it's not an organization. I don't know if that's the word, but we're gonna roll with it, that we're super familiar with. You know what I mean? Some traditional religions can be classified as a high control group if depending on the the place they're going. But if it's somewhere new, there's language and there's expectations and there's a culture, and there's there's so much to learn. And that information might not be widely available just by nature of the kind of groups that that clients with this kind of trauma can be in. And so, you know, learning at that client's pace and taking your time to really try to understand from their point of view how things work is is so important. And it's important with every client, of course, but I have to imagine this one takes a little bit extra.

Listening For Risk Inside “Community”

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, absolutely. To jump in there too, I I think you're you're so right on. And I think that a lot of times, you know, as Alexis mentioned earlier, it's rare that clients come to us and say, like, I was in a cult, I was in this high control group. I think sometimes some of the things that we hear from clients, you know, they talk about, yeah, I'm in this community that feels really safe, that I I have a high sense of purpose with, you know, they helped me when I was in a rough spot. They give me a sense of meaning, right? Those are all things that we might actually associate as protective factors for our clients. And when we're doing that initial intake, we might be jotten down, like, wow, look at this client's really robust community. And I think to your point, we we have to keep that ear open. We have to really listen and be tuned to our clients. And in the same way we would listen for kind of worrying relational pattern showing up, you know, in our clients' relationships. We want to look for that too in our communities.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Absolutely. I think one of the things that's standing out to me just as we're kind of exploring together is how much you feel like you belong when you're a part of these groups. And then, you know, when we come to that point where we realize, you know, this group isn't working for me, and and we get further along, I have to imagine there's so much trust and agency that's broken by, you know, starting to move away from that group and ultimately processing this realization that that that wasn't a good place for us to be. And how do you support clients going through that process after leaving these systems that were so safe feeling for them at that time?

Rebuilding Trust Through The Therapeutic Relationship

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I love this question, right? Because I I think you're really speaking to like the heart of cults, which is that belonging sense, right? People want that belonging, they want that community, and that's what attracts people to organizations like this. So I have to say that I am a relational cultural counselor. And so, you know, in the RCT realm, you know, we really feel very deeply that the actual therapeutic work is in the actual therapeutic relationship. And so if we want people to rebuild trust, to have agency, to be able to have that sense of belonging again, that means they need to feel that with us. And I think that goes beyond just building rapport and being kind, being empathetic. But I think it means using our relationship in almost an experimental way. So really giving space for clients to try things on with us. You know, clients I've had who's had these lived experiences with high control groups, they might be meaner to me than anybody else. Right. Because it might be one of the first chances they've had in life to be mean to somebody in a way that didn't get them ostracized from a community. They might portray what we tend to label as like resistant behaviors, right? They might disagree. They might no show or cancel. And really all those actions are them experimenting with their sense of power and agency. And so I think as counselors, then our job is to like receive it and process it, like point to it in the moment. Ask those questions of like, what's happening for you right here, right now? What comes up for you, client, when I say this word? You know, here's what I'm noticing, here's what I'm wondering. Like we have to be willing to talk about the relationship itself. And I think all of this is especially relevant in the fact that, you know, as counselors, we we do have some hierarchical power over our clients in general. I could be the most collaborative counselor in the world, but at the end of the day, I'm the one sending the claim to the insurance company, right? And that there's always a little bit of power that we hold. And so we have to be cautious that we are not replicating any of the dynamics that the client experienced in other hierarchies. And that means pushing against it, being egalitarian as often as possible, being transparent when we can't be collaborative, right? And really just using that relationship as the place for them to build that up again.

Consent, Transparency, And Client Choice

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Absolutely. Yeah, I just wanted to think too. I think that idea of trust is really essential. And I think tying that more into like issues around like consent, information, you know, trust building, even in kind of the logistical side of counseling is really important. And also not pathologizing it, right? Oh, the client's experiencing paranoia. I was actually thinking about that with the last question, too, right? So increase that paranoia is really common in folks who are in cults just because of what can happen after. I mean, once you tie in abuse with their empower dynamics, you know, well, I'm talking to you about this. How do I know that they're not going to come back on me? Right. To so really, really I think emphasizing consent in a very safe way is also important as it is with, you know, any kind of counseling relationship, but especially when there's that control dynamic there. I mean, you they're looking at you as, oh, you hold my information. You, you can, you know, what am I mandated to report? Here's what it looks like, here's what this would go to. Really going in depth there, I think is super important to build that trust and also that idea of choice, right? In session. These are people who probably haven't had much of a choice about what they're going to do day to day for quite a bit, or how they're going to think or how they're going to process information that's all controlled. Um, definitely though, in agreement with what Laura says and just yeah, really, really emphasizing and being open about that consent, I think is very important and not pathologizing it.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking just through both of your answers, I've had a few clients who have left high control groups, specifically religious organizations in the South, but but more so what I was thinking about is most of my work is with kids and teens and kids who have come through the foster care system or have been bounced house to house or have just gone through their own traumatic experiences. I think a lot about those resistant behaviors or really emphasizing they're in charge and they're in control and giving them the power to like have a bad day in front of me, or like to cry in front of me, or to to push the Jenga tower over because they they lost. Um and how how important the relationship is because you might be the most consistent person in our life at that point. You know, whether you're leaving a high control group or or you've you've moved between families, you we're here, right? We're gonna see you every week as long as you want to come and and no nothing you say is gonna make me mad, and nothing you say is gonna make me not want to be in this moment with you. And I think that's such a strange experience. And I've seen, you know, kids and I've I've seen some of my grown-ups too, that where they they just they don't know what to do with it, and they're so just like they're they're they're put so off center by just like that open arm, positive regard in an unconditional manner that they just it can feel a little destabilizing almost.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

I love that so much. I think that's that's such a powerful example, and I'm so glad you're you're pointing to kiddos because I think they have like such an intuitive sense of this of ways to find power when they feel really powerless. And yeah, I I mean, even that word resistance, right? We it has such a negative connotation in our field historically. Like, you know, we we use it in so many ways to basically talk about like clients who are giving us a hard time. But resistance also means somebody advocating, right? It means somebody pushing against something they perceive as unjust. And so I think I I I love what you're saying. I think when we talk about folks leaving high control groups, all of the resistance they bring to counseling is that like pent-up, built-up advocacy that is now pouring over. And now we get to help them learn how to use in a way that really builds their lives.

Hope, Nonlinearity, And Creative Modalities

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yeah. And I think one of the things I try to when we when we're able to talk about it after the fact, right? After, you know, we've kind of come back together and we've decided, okay, we're gonna work through this is like that shows to me that you're feeling comfortable here. And that shows to me that you're showing up as you are in that moment. And that's exactly what I want. Do I want, do I want you to yell at me? Do I want you to throw a stuffed animal at me? No. But I'm I'm glad that we're to the point where we can feel comfortable and we can work to find new ways to engage. One of the things that I'm sure is consistent, I mean, it's consistent with all clients, but especially with clients who have gone through these high control groups is that our progress is not going to be linear. Like we're going to have good days and bad days. And I have to imagine, I know it's hard for me when my clients come in on a bad day. What sustains you through this kind of work? Like this is, or even just grief or trauma work in general. It can be we're holding a lot of heavy things. What helps you remain hopeful or optimistic or just like ready to show up again tomorrow?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Yeah, I think that. And sometimes I even tell clients, like, okay, I might sound like every other counselor, but it's really not linear, especially when we're dealing with Greek. And there's a lot of cycles too, right? So, and I think that's the biggest thing, right? So there may be periods of clarity followed by resurfacing doubt or grief, and then we give clarity, and it can't be really much like very much like a roller coaster because right, identity, attachment, meaning are so intertwined. And I do think with this question and with the last question, that that's where that idea of choice becomes so powerful too, in terms of like integrating, but it getting really creative, right? I know we mentioned in our presentation, but they are seeing a lot of like really great results in research too, from from like art therapy, right? And like offering those as options and there's creative outlets, and there's there's hope in that that now you have this choice. I think that's the biggest builder of hope. You can decide spiritually what you want to do. I'm here to listen. That's all I'm here to do. I'm here to reflect, listen, and ask you about it because I care about you and I want to know this too. You know, so I would say when we're looking at sustaining it, it's continuously offering that choice, continuously as counselors to get creative with the modalities, get creative with the resources that we're offering, really delving into the client's individual needs too, right? So if there's culture there, if there's sexuality and gender identity that the client wants the choice of building more off of, you know, we're there as a sounding board and to offer help and to offer resources and to listen. I also think that on the flip side with being a counselor and sustaining hope in this work too, is watching clients reclaim parts of themselves that were suppressed for so long, too, right? Watching and assisting with that identity building, assisting too with different modalities, right? I learned a lot from my clients as well. I always say that my clients are some of my greatest teachers in my work too. I'm not all-knowing or whatnot, right? So I think a lot of that identity rebuilding is so powerful. And it's something that uh is very individualized to the client, and that, you know, I'm not doing it for you, but I'm there to watch and to see you, to see you grow. That power of choice and identity. So I I really think that that is the biggest thing when it comes to working with folks in high control groups is choice, a lot of reflection, a lot of open-ended questions too. That's the hope is that I have choice and autonomy.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, the winds give you some more fuel in your tank. Right. How do you care for yourself on the hard days?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah, I think I just want to echo what Alexa said there of like finding the hope in those moments. And I think part of our work, as hard as it is, and I say this no struggling with it, as a real human being, right, is really letting that hope carry us. You know, some wonderful folks in advocacy talk about how if we base our hope on outcomes, hope is never gonna serve us, right? That we really have to have hope in the fact that we're showing up every day. And I think even when it feels like clients are, you know, back at square one, even though they're never a back at square one. But that's besides the point, even when it feels that way, it's really about just reminding ourselves that they are showing up, we are showing up. That's all that matters and in this moment.

Misconceptions And The Role Of Social Media

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah. I had a meeting earlier today, and and we were kind of talking about, you know, the state of the world and and being a counselor today. And one of the people was sharing that their partner kind of joked with them that they were a Pollyanna and like they were too optimistic and like they weren't taking things seriously. And I think that's one of the things that makes our profession and the people who who are with us in this time like so special is that we don't let outcomes, well, we try not to let outcomes define what we think the future will hold. And that, you know, we we know that, you know, if even if we can't stop whatever it is that's bothering our clients or that's making the world hard right now, we can show up and do our good. And like that's our contribution. And I think that's something that I really value and have found like such comfort in navigating this work, especially on days where it feels harder to get up.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

It's really beautiful. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Yeah, I appreciate it in my meeting too. It was so early in the morning. I needed that. Do you guys hear any common misconceptions when you're when you're talking about this with colleagues or when you're giving presentations or just in your own research about cults and cultic trauma?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yeah, I think one of the biggest misconceptions is, you know, people think the big, the big sensational stuff, right? They think about the the documentaries they've watched, the news stories they've heard. And I think they they misconstrue that those high control elements is it's more of a spectrum. It is more of traits that can be assigned to groups in different ways. I think people, you know, Alexis mentioned earlier that political cults exist. And I think that's a big thing that we forget. Politics absolutely have, can have cults, cult like tendencies depending on the groups. People also sometimes equate religion and spirituality. And so they might approach treatment focusing in on like religious beliefs when really we should be looking at more broadly, like spiritual experiences, like around meaning, identity, belonging, some of those things that all of us have as humans. I think we just get caught up in the news stories sometimes about this topic.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah. Yeah. To echo off of what Laura's saying too, another really big thing is like social media. Uh so not like negating that like that's a channel that young people or people can access to get in high control groups, chat rooms, etc. YouTube, I always see too, some belief systems on videos. I mean, because I think sometimes it's shoved the sign and it's like, oh, but you're not like it's not like Jonestown for you. And it's like, well, things have adapted so much too, like also looking at, you know, how's information being communicated? And a lot of it is through social media. There are like newer groups that are developing through gaming, through Discord, various outlets as well, right? So psychoeducation also for counselors, and if we're talking about families, is is really important too, right? So there's a bunch of different ways that somebody can get involved in a high control group and making sure that you know, counselors are looking out for certain things too, right? Certain channels that this can happen through, especially with how social media has grown and honestly impacted cultic recruitment.

Signs Clinicians Should Watch For

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah, that's such an interesting choice. Not to bring up a sensationalized documentary, but I remember I watched the a documentary, I'm sure there's more than one about the Twin Flames group. And that I I watched it with a family member actually, and they were so like, they were like, why don't they just turn off the computer? Like they were getting so frustrated because it wasn't something in person, right? Like they weren't removed to an alternative place on the earth, but the it is still high control because there's it's all day. It there's so clear expectations and there's rules and there's like an end goal we're all working towards, right? And I just I remember trying to like like I sat with them for I think probably an hour after we watched it. I was like, I promise, if it was as easy as turning off the computer, we would also say, Why didn't they get on a plane? Why didn't they get up and walk away? It's just like there's so much tied up in it, and we're at such a vulnerable place when we get involved in these groups. And yeah, the the internet is it can be such a wonderful place, and it can also be a place for people to be really vulnerable. That's such a good point.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Exactly. Exactly. And it's you know, it's an abuse, it's an abusive relationship when we look at cults too, right? That's to me, that's almost equating like, well, why didn't you just leave them? Right. Well, only it were that easy, right? And we're talking about like DB survivors, but there's a parallel there because it's an abusive relationship with an entire right group, an entire, you know, hierarchy. It's just, yeah, there's a lot there. And I think only it were that easy is is a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Yeah. And depending on, you know, how different groups operate, there's so much tied up in it. It's not just you, the individual, all your friends are part of it, or the person who you love is part of it, or or you know, maybe we don't have the resources to leave, depending on what kind of group it is. And so it it is very similar to like a domestic violence or an abusive relationship situation where I I think about the, I don't know if you guys have ever looked at the power and control wheel that we use sometimes with with people who are are in those situations. And I think a lot about it, like maybe our maybe our kids are wrapped up in it, right? And we don't have as much access as we need to our kids to make sure they're they're safe. Right. And so there's so many different things that we have to consider when not only just realizing and waking up to this reality, but also in in trying to make change.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yeah, absolutely. And I I think, you know, that doesn't even speak to like the very tangible benefits that often come with involvement in a high control group. You know, we live in a very like disempowering and scary world and times, right? But so being a part of a community, first off, there can be that power in numbers sort of feeling. But there also might be tangible benefits that come from kind of operating under somebody else's power. And so, yeah, it it's hard to blame people when they feel stuck in a situation like this because I I think that you know, we all crave belonging. It just shows up differently for folks.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah. And I think we're also told if this isn't working, you're doing something wrong. Because we have all the answers. Yeah. You know, the I think these groups are more prevalent than people might expect because our exposure to them is sensationalized and is seen as I mean, I'm sure it's not not everyone, like but you know what I mean. Like it's it's more common than we think. Are there any things that you would like signs or themes that maybe uh those listening who do work with clients should maybe keep an ear out for as they kind of work through these things?

How To Broach High‑Control Dynamics

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, I can speak a little bit on this. So with calls, I know we talked a lot about the power dynamic, and I'm looking for signs that maybe how that shows up for the person. So permission. I don't know if like I can come this day on session because I don't know if this, you know, like I have to get approval through this person or access to things, right? Like, does the person have access to transportation? Do they have access to I mean basic needs too? That can be a way to kind of differentiate out shame around, but also a lot of curiosity around certain topics like sexuality, autonomy, sometimes spirituality too could actually come up quite a bit for a person out of curiosity, right? So that can kind of linger a lot around control too. Black and white thinking tied to morality is a really big one as well. So also difficulty, maybe tolerating, especially at first ambiguity or choice. That's where we can see, while choice is great, I know we've talked about it. Someone's actively involved or has just recently left a high control group, it can make them really uncomfortable. Again, make it difficult for them to tolerate or over it becomes so overwhelming for them because they're not used to that. Any language of obedience, submission, worviness, grief for like community, and just like trauma symptoms without a single identifiable event. Because we're talking about relation from. I mean, there are many forms of abuse that can take place in cultic trauma too, but really seeing like this relational kind of traumatic response to a number of different things, right? I didn't go through and a lot of people, you know, I go through one event and it causes trauma, you know, or if we're if we're comfortable enough with the client, they're starting to talk about trauma. Okay, this is linking back to this, and this is linking back to the same group. And it's it's right cycling through kind of these same key people or the same group eventually. And, you know, clients struggling with identity agency, trusting their own perception too. That's where you're gonna see um and start to explore, kind of see a lot of those high dynamics, right? Even if no one names, you know, them as like any type of high control group or cult. Because, like we talked about, clients aren't gonna, especially with cultic abuse, because of that level of control. No one's gonna come into session and say, I was in a cult, you never believe it, right? Never comes up. So, really, really looking for that. What do their relationships look like with other people, right? We're doing intake and assessment. I mean, that's key too. So just kind of really looking for those control dynamics. I know we were just talking about abusive relationships very similar, right? Is this person asking their partner for permission to come to session or like like what does what is this really looking like? You know, exploring that too can be really helpful. But yeah, a lot of a lot of those key themes there.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

I want to jump in too, and I absolutely echo what Alexa said here. I think that Alexis mentioned that importance of choice. And I think sometimes one of the tough parts about this is that sometimes we don't pick up on something being a high control group until our clients have chosen something that is in conflict with the high control group. And when clients come to us and they say, you know, everybody in this group is mad at me because of da-da-da-da-da, or I lost certain privileges or access, or somebody stops coming to counseling for several weeks for no reason whatsoever. And maybe we find out later on what happened. And so I think Alexis was absolutely right on other things we could keep an eye open for. And we need to kind of keep an eye open for them consistently because they might unfold as we get to know our clients and their situation more.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah, it can't just be the first session and we're like, oh, no cults. Okay, moving on. Is that is, you know, being involved in a high control group when you're hearing these things from your clients, how do you broach that topic with them? Is it something you kind of let them come around to? Is it something you point out to them? Obviously, this is a pretty individualized question and there's no one right answer, but do you have a personal philosophy for that?

SPEAKER_00 41:04

I know for me, it's a lot of curiosity. And I feel like that is the only thing that is consistent across every case is just asking a lot of, you know, very open, non-judgmental questions. I wonder is can be the best friend in those situations. You know, it's challenging, right? And I think it isn't therapeutic for us to be the ones to be like, hey, I think you might be in, you know, this sort of thing. But instead, really just asking those very gentle, curious questions and reflecting back what we're hearing.

Curiosity Over Judgment In The Real World

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yeah. Yeah, I echo that a hundred percent. I I remember in the counseling program, there was a really big focus on motivational interviewing and like those words skills, right? So, like open questions, affirmations, reflection is really big too, right? Repeating back what the client is essentially saying to you, even if it's a simple reflection, summaries too, not only to show that you're listening, right, but to really kind of tie everything together on the client's saying, right, without any type of confrontation, like high confrontation counseling, judgment, et cetera. Right. So I think it's really important to honestly kind of go back to MI when I think about that, right? A lot of open-ended reflection back, no assumption, not that we should be here, but no assumption making, really, really focusing on some of those skills with reflection, summary, affirmations. Yeah, I I totally agree. That's kind of what came up for me in terms of training, right? And it will it should naturally to lead to kind of, you know, bro broaching, right? It can take several sessions for that to happen as well, right? So for asking someone in an eye control group, take months, can take over a year, right? So kind of continuously looking out for that, you know, you are to a lot of them outsider who's asking questions too, right? So we might ask a question in the kind of beginning or first couple of weeks, then we build recording, kind of build relationship, then we ask it a couple of months later, and we're getting a lot more detail, right? So continuously asking those questions is really important. And that happens with all clients, right? You ask someone a question in an intake, then you ask them six six months later, and it's like we have way more information now. So kind of keeping that consistency with folks who are in high control groups because you know, first couple of times maybe we're using some of these, you know, open-ended questions and these skills probably get less than we would in after building relationship and trust.

unknown 43:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yeah. I just want to and I just want to jump in and say too, like, that's so hard, right? Because we're counselors and we care about people and we want to feel like we can do more. We want to get in there with like the perfect intervention that's gonna help people have this like eureka moment and leave the cult forever. But really leaning to those skills of Alexis mentioned is what's gonna keep us out of that triangle, right? That rescuer, perpetrator, victim triangle. And we we want to avoid rescuing our clients, and then now all of a sudden we become that high control element in their lives. So goodie basic skills all the way.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yeah, I think one of the things I was thinking of while you guys were talking was that I I my hometown has a lot of different groups that have missionaries that go out. We had a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses and we had a lot of Mormons in my hometown. And I remember like people would be so harsh and so judgy towards them. And even when I was little, like that didn't make sense to me. But now, knowing what I know, I just think about how reinforcing that would be for someone in a high control group to go out and and you know, interact with the community and be met with harshness or or or hatred and how reinforcing that is for those those groups and how much power it gives them. And so, you know, I think in in most aspects of our life, it's so important to lead with curiosity and and kindness, but especially when we have a suspicion that someone is in an environment like this, like remembering that our actions might reinforce the things they've been hearing about people who don't hold the same beliefs and trying to be mindful and and uh lead with that unconditional positive regard for clients and and non-clients.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's really on part, T. Ray, because that's probably a lot of what's being talked about in that high control group is how much people on the outside don't understand, how much people on the outside are this way. So you are going to be met with this. So that is really important. And that is one of the control tactics that kind of creates that us versus them mentality and cult. So absolutely it's reinforcing because that's again, when we look at tactics from you know, hierarchical leadership or or from you know, the group in general, yeah, they expect that and they they do use that.

Urgency Can Become Coercion

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Yeah. I also think about that in terms of I know we've lightly touched on political cults a few times and some you know, ideologies or things we hear from from people in those situations or even just people with different viewpoints from us are so antithetical to to how we move through the world, and it can be so easy to be upset. And I mean, there are times where being upset is appropriate, of course, but that's not gonna change minds. You know what I mean? Not that that's always our goal, but catch more flies with honey, etc.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Absolutely. And just that we can like accept a person without endorsing their beliefs. Like if I am open and non-judgmental, but it does not mean that I'm joining the group. That doesn't mean that I'm voting with the same lines as this person. Right. I can still like be present, especially when we ourselves are not like being threatened. Right. If somebody has a belief that is not directly threatening me, I think those are especially the times those counselors that we have to lean in and be that non-judgmental space.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Yeah, absolutely. Last thing I'll just say really quick is you know, that avoidance too of like urgency solution and using the right intervention right away and healing, because that can come sometimes come off as like coercive in the therapy room. And these are people who are trying to leave coercive groups. So then that becomes one, confusing, and then two, or harmful because it can turn into kind of light coercion, right? So kind of, well, it is very difficult, right? Recognizing that there is a lot more intertwined there with power dynamics and not wanting to kind of urgently do something. Well, we know the person's it is wrong. The situation is a high control group, it takes time.

The Bigger Conversation: Community Over Isolation

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've been so excited to ask this question the whole time because we ask it at the end of every episode. The name of our podcast is Ohio Lee Counseling Conversations. What important conversations do you think that we should be having as counseling professionals with each other in our state?

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Yeah, I love this question. It's it's such a good one. And I think the answer is like a lot of conversations. Like there's so much, I think, in our field. But you know, we've been talking today a lot about we're talking about belonging, we're talking about relationships. And I think that there is this larger conversation about what belonging looks like in our world. You know, people say we have an isolation epidemic, a loneliness epidemic. And I tend to feel like we, you know, included in all of that, we also have sort of a hyper-individualism epidemic. I think it's easier now, more than ever, for us all as people to pretend that we're not interconnected, to pretend that we're islands. And I think our clients are hurting from that. I think we are hurting from that. And I think that leads to a lot of the things we're dealing with professionally, like burnout, vicarious trauma. And so I think that for us to care for ourselves and to care for others, you know, as counselors, we need to be talking about how we lean more into community, community care over self-care, building really growth fostering and reciprocal relationships with ourselves and others. And, you know, even obviously, like hyperindependence, I think is even a symptom of larger things that we're dealing with societally. But I also think that we as counselors are we are uniquely equipped to be able to lead those conversations on what it means to really build community.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Yeah, thank you. Alexis, do you have any specific conversations you're hoping to see from others?

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Yeah, uh, I definitely what um Laura was talking about, right? And I think too like psychoeducating our ourselves and others on like what does a healthy community look like, right? Like if in terms of rewinding this belonging, trying to, you know, uh have this belonging, and then like how do I know that I'm, you know, involved in a community that is healthy and that the relationships are based off of, you know, my personal wellness. I do think overall too, like conversations about and go back to kind of like the the training model too, right? Like like training counselors and how to recognize kind of these patterns. I remember when I first got really interested into the topic, it was hard for me to find like continuing education on it and kind of other resources on it. So I think that there is, you know, conversations about how to kind of build that up can be really helpful as well. Because it is a really sensationalized topic. Yeah, building community self-care, you know, Laura said that, and then just overall, you know, more education on it and more advocacy too for people who are in high control groups and that that this is a real issue is important as well.

Gratitude And Closing

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Yes. Well, thank you so much, both of you, for being here. I hope that we've shed some light on this topic and kind of desensationalized it a bit. And I really appreciate your time and your expertise.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Thank you for.